R. 34 Haim Einav Hebrew Translation TRT 30:39
Interviewer: It’s not how it’s supposed to be is it?
Einav: In war, everything is possible. No one can decide what will happen or what will
not happen. This is how war is. You win some you lose some. It’s not an insurance
company.
Translator: [In war everything is possible. You win some you lose some.]
Interviewer: At the time or maybe not at the time but afterwards were you looking for
some explanation? Was there some…were you looking for a reason, an answer, why all
of this happened? Or did you just accept it? That’s how it is. Was there any kind of
need inside as why, why?
Einav: No. I don’t ask why. I didn’t ask why also in other places why it happened.
After a while we forgot about it. It hurt but we forgot about it. We continued to fight on
until we finished the war in a big victory. It’s right that it hurt and it was enough time.
But right after Latrun we came here to the center and we fought in several places. Right
away, it took days. We were already in an additional war.
Translator: [I didn’t ask why then and I don’t ask why today. It was painful but we
went on to fight other battles. Within a few days we came up to the center of the country
and were already in another battle. And in the end we won the large victory of the War
of Independence.]
Interviewer: Just after the battle, I imagine there was a time when you would close your
eyes and see one image or there was one memory that maybe has never left you. What
would that be for that day? What’s the defining moment of that day or is there one for
you that sticks out that’s sort of in your head burned?
Einav: For me? When I went up to 314 and I saved many of the soldiers that were in
that battle. That was the biggest thing for me in the same day. Explain to him.
Translator: [When I went up Hill 314 and saved many soldiers that were up there.]
Einav: That was the biggest thing for me.
Translator: [That was my big moment.]
Einav: No one sent me there; it was my initiative to fight and occupy this place. To sit
on them and this is how most of the soldiers that were in this battle were saved through
this place.
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Translator: [Nobody told me to do it; it was my initiative to dig in there and hold that
place and through that place most of the soldiers who were saved were saved through
there, by coming through there and they held it.]
Interviewer: Where did you retreat to? You left 314 and finally got out and where did
you go?
Einav: Till Beit Jees.
Interviewer: So tell me that…
Einav: We retreated until the Arab village, Beit Jees. It was abandoned. It was already
in our hands. And from there, a jeep came and took me from there. They thought I
wasn’t there. They sent for a jeep and when it came, it took me back to Hulda.
Translator: [He went to Beit Jees and a jeep came and took him away. Beit Jees was
abandoned.]
Interviewer: Did you think there would be people at Beit Jees to help you or no?
Einav: At Beit Jees there were only the people who retreated. A car came and took
them back to Hulda. Everyone who retreated at Beit Jees was taken back to Hulda by
car.
Translator: [Everybody who retreated to Beit Jees was picked up by a car and took
them to Hulda.]
Interviewer: And then back at Hulda , what was the mood of you and your men and
around you? Was it…I imagine it was pretty awful…
Einav: In Hulda, how do you say it? They told us to get organized and get equipment.
They told us tomorrow we are going to attack Hulda, uh Latrun again. I gathered the
troops and asked them who does not want to go out and attack Latrun again should go
outside. Not one soldier left. Explain to him.
Translator: [They were told to get organized and get ready to go out to attack Latrun
again the next day. And he gathered his troops. And he said who does not want to go out
to attack Latrun again, go to the side and not one soldier went to the side.]
Interviewer: So you were ready to do it again?
Einav: Of course, of course. But we weren’t sent.
Translator: [Of course. Why of course?]
Einav: There was no choice. How do you say?
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Translator: [No, no, choice. Why?]
Einav: I want you to take a break [to the translator]. We were 600,000 Jews in total
here. All the Arab armies attacked us with weapons, tanks, and canons. We didn’t have
any of that. We knew that if we didn’t fight and win, one land would not remain. Not
children, not parents, not old people and not one Jew would remain here. They simply
wanted to finish off the small state right when she was beginning. Therefore, everything
that was said, this is how we grew in this land and it gave us the strength to go forward
and fight.
Translator: [We were 600,000 Jews in this land and we were attacked by all the armies,
all the Arab armies around us. And we knew that if we didn’t fight there would be
nothing left. Not a child, not old people, nothing would be left of this small country just
forming. And that’s how we were raised. We were raised with that belief.]
Interviewer: Why do you think… I mean you have said you don’t question the battle
being fought. Well, first I’ll ask you this question: Do you think Bin Nun I could have
succeeded? Do you think that that battle could have been won or there was no chance
from the start?
Einav: If we would have gone out earlier and if we would have arrived at Latrun at night
it is possible we could have won. But since we were late and came in the day, there was
no chance.
Translator: [If we had left earlier and if we would have reached Latrun at night we
might have won the battle. But because it was in the daylight we had no chance.
Because we left late.]
Interviewer: Why do you think…there are company commanders from Alexandroni,
Asher Levi and Ram Ron. They say that they are very critical of this battle. They have
many questions many criticism of the seventh brigade, some of Ben Gurion, of the
decision to fight the battle and you fought in the same battle in the same day, the same
hour, the same place, but you…[interruption.] What explains that you have these
company commanders who are so critical but for you…
Einav: I don’t know. I don’t have any idea. They think differently and I think
differently.
Interviewer: Different perpective…
Translator: [He really doesn’t have any idea why…]
Interviewer: Did you see Alexandroni as different from Hativa sheva? Was it a
different unit, a different mentality…describe that for me.
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Einav: Yes, yes. Then Alexandroni was made up of people who were raised in the land.
Hativa sheva, a big portion of them was new immigrants that weren’t raised in the land.
Also their physical strength was not like ours. They weren’t used to the heat and they
didn’t stand in the heat. Their mentality was different. We had more courage and they
had less courage. When we were in hardship we tried to overcome it. When they were
confronted with hardship, they raised their hands. It was a huge difference between the
units of Alexandroni and Hativa sheva. In the same battle, it was possible that there
Hativa sheva was like Hativa shalosh, Alexandroni. It is possible if we would have left
at night, we could have succeeded. But the whole thing is speculation.
Translator: [There’s a big difference between the Alexandroni and the soldiers who
were… (Cut)…]
Interviewer: …story. Why is it? Is it something about Latrun or is that something about
surviving a battle? You remember that you did your job and kind of things maybe fell
apart because of the other people?
Einav: I think Asher Levi did a lot of work. He was in a place that was hard to fight in
and he fought well. The brigade, I don’t know what happened to them. I think they
raised their hands too quickly and retreated. Our unit stood too hard in the place they
stood. Around the same place that I am telling about, where I stood with my strength and
another department of Asher Levi’s that I took with me, it was the basis but any more I
don’t know.
Translator: [I think Asher Levi did a great job hanging on… (Cut)…]
Interviewer: …or is it justified when they point the finger?
Einav: I don’t know what to answer to that. I have no idea.
Translator: [He doesn’t know what to answer you…]
Interviewer: What is it about Latrun that everybody has an opinion and can tell you not
only do they have an opinion but then some people spend years writing books and
publishing papers and doing interviews. What is it about this story, this battle of Latrun
that everybody has a very strong opinion about it?
Einav: Latrun was the big battle in 1948. The ? that we needed to fix if Jerusalem
would stay with us or not. There were a lot of mistakes there. The battle put pressure on
us not like it needed to in a normal manner. Therefore, everyone writes, everyone talks.
Everyone writes according to their own eyes. In war two commanders in the same battle
looks at it differently. Everyone sees the battle in his own eyes in a completely different
way. He decides completely differently. There are not two commanders that were in the
same battle that are the same.
Translator: [Any two generals… (Cut)…]
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Interviewer: …and here you were on that day right in the middle of the battle and now
fifty years later talking to this American film crew about it. Do you wonder why we’re
here? Do you…have you been thinking about Latrun…has it stayed with you for fifty
years or did you forget about it?
Einav: I have not forgotten about Latrun. Not once. It’s hard to forget Latrun. I have
been in a lot of battles. I was also in the battle, Nesiga Nosaf, Lefaluja; but never in a
battle like Latrun. Therefore, it is impossible to forget about it. It was important, central
in terms of fighting. Always think how do you say? Latrun will always be remembered,
never forget it.
Translator: [I’ll never forget Latrun. Latrun was a very important, crucial battle. And
there was never a battle like Latrun. We can never forget it.]
Interviewer: What do you mean when you say there was never a battle like Latrun?
What makes it so unique?
Einav: It was important. It was important to us. It was also a disappointment to us. It
was important to us because it was the battle that saved Jerusalem. It was disappointing,
because we failed.
Translator: [It was important because it was the battle to save Jerusalem. And it was
disappointing because we failed at something that was so important.]
Interviewer: That must have been difficult. Is it still difficult today when you think
about it?
Einav: We forgot about it.
Translator: [We forgot it. You just said you will never forget it.].
Einav: But I want to forget it! The world will not forget it. Latrun? Who was there will
not forget about it.
Translator: [We want to forget…]
Einav: But who was there will not forget about it.
Interviewer: You want to forget it because it was so painful? Why do you want to
forget it?
Einav: [chuckles.] Because it was a hard battle and it wasn’t good. We lost. We were
not used to losing. Explain to him.
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Translator: [Because it was painful. Because we failed and we weren’t used to failing.
We would like to forget it but we can’t forget it.]
Interviewer: That’s a hard thing especially I think, in Israel to fail because there is
always so much at stake or at least the impression that there is so much at stake so there
is even more riding on it than an American war or another country. In Israel, it’s an extra
something when you lose, huh?
Einav: In Israel, when we sit and talk about wars…if we lose a war, no one will come to
help us. America will send us a few boats and collect a few refugees. That’s all they will
do for us if we don’t do it. Therefore, it is important that we always win. We always
have to see that [?]
Interviewer: And in the mythology of Israel, the David and Goliath story, David always
wins, right? The big giants, the Arab legion, the Egyptian army, you pick whatever,
Goliath always falls, right? That’s the myth of Israel. It’s true and but at Latrun David
didn’t win.
Einav: Right. We lost. It was a waste.
Interviewer: It’s hard to live up to a myth, also, isn’t it? It’s because a myth is so
powerful, it’s in everybody’s blood so that must have been an extra burden on that. Of
course it’s difficult to lose in anything; it’s always difficult with the mythology, the
heavy weight, the history.
Einav: Yes, we cannot lose. In Israel, we cannot lose.
Interviewer: I wonder if that’s why…go ahead…
Translator: [He said before and again Israel cannot lose. If Israel loses no one will
come to help her. America will send a few ships to take away some refugees but that’s it.
And Israel simply cannot ever lose. It’s not just a myth, it’s a reality. And he just said
but we did lose at Latrun we lost, therefore it was such a blow.]
Interviewer: And is that why, why people still, they use Latrun, some people, don’t
they? For, to make arguments against other people against for politics, for their
perception of the history…Latrun can be…Latrun was a real battlefield but it’s also a
battlefield of ideas too. Because it was a place where some awful things happened…It’s
almost like…it’s an unfair use of it…it almost…it debases the loss…sort of a lack of
respect…that it’s easy to play with emotions if you just say Latrun or olim hadashim and
immediately people think…they don’t think they feel, right, you can make an argument…
Wife: [Not an argument, about Latrun?]
Interviewer: People now still, in your generation, right? Not about Latrun?
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Einav: No, no.
Wife: [Not about Latrun.]
Interviewer: There’s no raw nerve?
Wife: [About Yom Kippur, not about Latrun.]
Einav: No, I think no.
Translator: [Do you wonder what they are doing here?]
Interviewer: Is it important to tell the story of Latrun?
Einav: Why not?
Wife: [Sure. It’s history.]
Einav: Why not? (chuckles).
Wife: [It’s history. It’s our history.]
Interviewer: Is there anything for you that’s of special significance about Latrun beyond
who you think today 51 years later that Latrun speaks to about Israel or it’s just another
battle, you got hundreds of battles, what’s the big deal? Ancient history? If someone
said, if Aryeh Yitzhaki said today [cut].
Translator: […people are practically not living anymore. There are few left.]
Interviewer: I’m sorry. What do you mean?
Translator: [From ’48. From the war.]
Interviewer: Do you think that when that generation is gone that Latrun will fade into
the distance? Into the past?
Einav: Of course.
Interviewer: Or will people always talk about it?
Einav: They will not remember it.
Translator: [They won’t....]
Einav: No, they won’t remember it. For my son, Latrun is nothing. He listened, he
listens, but no.
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Wife: [It’s ancient history.]
Translator: [For my son Latrun is history.]
Interviewer: Did you ever tell your son the story of Latrun?
Einav: Yes.
Wife: Well, sure.
Interviewer: Do you ever go back to Latrun?
Einav: I was, yes.
Interviewer: To the wadi there and to Hill 314?
Einav: I was, I visited.
Translator: [Do you take you children or grandchildren?]
Einav: No, no.
Wife: [From school they went there. With school, with the teachers.]
Interviewer: Was it hard to go back to the hill or was it interesting?
Einav: It was interesting. In wars now and others…my son fought in…
Wife: at Yom Kippur, at Sinai.
Einav: ...Yom Kippur in the Sinai. The tanks, artillery, airplanes…what is Latrun in
fighting? It’s different.
Interviewer: But you were part of a battle that was at a time…’cause after the Dani
operation, right, from that point to now Israel is Goliath. But you were fighting at a time,
May 15-June 11 when…is she going to be in the light?
Wife: I am here?
Interviewer: No, its okay, your fine cause your shadow is good…the other way, its out
so it’s good …you were fighting at a time when there were no tanks, there were no air
force, no navy. You didn’t even have enough soldiers. You didn’t even have an army.
You had Palmach and Alexandroni, and Givati, this that. Everything was in doubt and so
it’s a different time, that’s a unique time. Things were different then.
Einav: Of course, of course. It was a different time.
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Family member: [I think then, being a soldier was being a hero, it was something.]
Translator: [You just said that your…]
Einav: Nothing. [cut.] I asked him [cut.] Don’t stay that way. Like me. By me, what’s
left? You don’t need me. Everyone used to be important. Today, look there are planes,
tanks, canons…It’s something else. People see things differently.
Translator: [That’s interesting. He said he asked his son why don’t you…]
[Cut.]
Einav: It’s not terrible. He chose to go a different way.
Translator: [Not bad. He chose a different way, that’s all.]
Interviewer: Do you think maybe it’s difficult that the beginning of Israel there was…
[Cut.]
Einav: In Israel there is a need for a strong and good army all the time. Each young man
that reaches the age of eighteen, knows this that he must give three years and they do it
very well. They do it better, I think, than we did because they learn better. They have a
higher education. The commanders, everyone has an academic education. And the
utensils: artillery, tanks, and airplanes are a lot better that what we had. We have the best
in the world. Every three years there is a new generation. The world needs a strong army
because the moment we don’t have one, Israel will not remain. Therefore, we continue
on to be strong in our spirit and also in our brains.
Translator: [Israel will always need a strong army and our young boys know it. And
when they get to the age of eighteen every boy serves in the army and they do it better
than we did because they are more educated. Their officers are better educated. Their
officers are more with academic education, higher education. And, again he repeated, we
will always need a strong army and the day we don’t have a strong army will be our end.]
[End of R. 34.]
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