PELTZ REELS 157 TRT: 29:57
REEL 157 (T.C. 01):
Interviewer: Yannush, let’s warm up with a question that we may or may not need an
extra answer to but when we show all of you getting ready in Berg Alarav to go and then
setting sail, what was the feeling like in anticipation of this battle you’ve waited so long
for and did you know where you were going?
Peltz: Yes. We didn’t know where we were going. We knew that we are going to
Italy...the feeling was one of excitement of a dream slowly coming true. That’s about all.
Interviewer: Was there fear? Was there anger? Was there anything for all these
feelings that had been in you for so long to make this feeling come true?
Peltz: No, there was certainly no fear. There was no anger. The anger at the Germans
was a sort of permanent feeling. It did not come with the sailing of the ships. It existed
before, it existed after. We just knew that we are going to Italy to train and to fight....It
was a good feeling.
Interviewer: In that you felt later how symbolically important the battle was…the Jews
could fight and they could win. Before you went into battle, even back when you were
training, did you feel the burden, did you feel that there was that much riding on your
shoulders? In some ways the future of so much?
Peltz: No, I don’t think so. Look, soldiers, with very few exceptions are perhaps some
people who’s job it was to fill the burden. Soldiers are soldiers. They train, they live
their everyday life, they got tired in the evening, they slept well at night. The next day
they trained again. We didn't think much about Zionism and about our what we called in
Hebrew shlichut, our mission. We were just devoted to training so that we’d be prepared
to fight.
Interviewer: Well then, something must have happened to create this sense of mission.
Was it seeing the survivors? What was it?
Peltz: No, look. I'll tell you a joke. You can wipe it off then later on. When I was in
Australia, we had a visit of Danny Kaye, a famous American actor. And when he left,
there were a number of newspapermen at the terminal interviewing him and one Jewish
newspaperman ask him, “Have you got a message for the Australian Jews, Mr. Kaye?”
And Mr. Kaye answered, “Yes. Tell them not to put so much salt in the Gefilte fish.”
That’s about the same thing here. I don’t think we should talk so much about the
mission. Nobody thought about the mission, really. We were talking about going to war,
about fighting. Nobody thought about the fight and why he is training. Things of
missions, and Zionism and things like that. We gave ourselves to the training, to the
daily life. The mission and the Zionism were in the background. They were there all the
time. They didn’t all of a sudden burst out because we were in training.
Peltz i'view R. 157
1
Interviewer: So last night, when you looked at the movie with Matthew and I yesterday,
and you said, “I wish there were more vengeance, I will there were more Karmi, I wish
there were more Zarro, I wish Laskov were alive.” Since we’re here with you now, and
you talk about the desire for vengeance and where it came from so well I’d love it if
you’d just almost tell me the kind of thing you told everybody last night about this
feeling that came over you once you saw the camps.
Peltz: Well, let us divide my remarks into two parts. One were technical remarks. I
simply thought that putting certain remarks, certain talks of Hoter Yishai would
contribute to the film. I think that what Hoter Yishai said was quite significant and it was
very interesting. That is one thing. The second thing, I thought that you should have
possibly given more to the problem of vengeance for two reasons: First, because we did
it and I think that it should be on record. And secondly, because it is significant and it is
important for people to know that we did this acts of vengeance that we didn’t forget, that
we didn’t just lay down and were satisfied with what we have done at the front line.
Quite rightly, many people ask themselves and ask others why the Jews didn’t resist, why
the Jews didn’t kill their enemies and it’s a legitimate question and a correct question.
And I think that the fact that we did some vengeance answers in part their questions.
Interviewer: Again, last night when you were talking to [interruption].
Crew Member: Can I just interrupt for a moment?
Interviewer: Pardon me?
Crew Member: Can you just brush your eyebrows a little bit? Thanks.
Interviewer: Last night…You look beautiful now.
Peltz: Yeah.
Interviewer: Last night when you were talking to people at the party. One thing that I
think people needed to understand and picked up on was how you felt because you were
among the first into the camps and how the feeling for vengeance came and how strong it
was because I thinkmaybe the movie doesn’t really say that well enough and altough
again you are not Laskov or Karmi, you say it so well, I’d love to hear a little bit to give
an audience some insight into what you saw and what drove you to this feeling because
it’s a surprise.
Peltz: Well the feeling of anger built gradually. It didn't come all at once. It built up for
years. First when we heard that Hitler is preparing a plan to to we didn't know then it was
a plant to exterminate the Jews but we knew that it was a plan to to do the Jews a lot of
injustice. Persecution and so on. And we regarded him as an enemy. Then when the
Germans started physically hurting Jews, burning synagogues, locking up Jews in the
concentration camps, creating laws discrminating against the Jews--the Nuremberg laws
and so on-- then the sense of anger built up and built up. It came to the culmination when
we heard of the extermination camps and when we found out from the survivors of the
Peltz i'view R. 157
2
camps what he, what the Germans in fact did. And then it turned not into an anger, but
into fury. And everybody began feeling that we owe the Germans something. And then,
look, vengeance is a very natural feeling. I don't know why some do gooders think
vengeance is bad. It's not bad. I think that vengeance is legitimate. If you have an enemy
who is brutal, who murders your relatives, and he's trying to get out of it unpunished, it's
legitimate to kill him. And this is vengaenace. I think it's legitimate. The fact that we
couldn't do very much is another story. We were serving as soldiers in the British army.
We were not masters of our own desires. And we have to do it in such a way that will not
do harm to the Brigade as a whole and to us as individuals. So we formed this group. Not
a big one. Everything had to be kept in strict secrecy. Nothing was ever written. We
didn't keep any record. Any written record. And that was for the purpose, if there is no
record, nothing can be discovered. Orders and information were passed by word of
mouth. We had a, we had a group of people who were good in collectiong intelligence
and evaluating it. They collected the intelligence, and they were pinpointing the man, the
Germans who were guilty of murder and cruelties and so on. Then we had a sort of a
kangaroo court of a few men who considered the evidence, and if the evidence called for
it, sentenced the men to death. Then another group came into action, and perhaps it's not
a nice word, but that's what they were, executioners. A small group went out, found the
man, and killed him. Without talking to him, withjout getting involved with him.
Everything that had to be done was already done. And the last act which had to be carried
out was killing him, and that's what we did.
Interviewer: When you talk about anger becoming fury did that come from your first
contact with the survivors or from seeing the results of the killing, being in the camps or
seeing people coming to Tarvisio or seeing surviviors on the road?
Peltz: Both. We were witnesses to both. Many members of the Jewish Brigade went
into Germany and Austria and they actually saw the camps. I was in Dachau, I saw, I
saw Dachau, I saw I saw the results. And that was a very short while after the war ended.
The place wasn't cleaned up yet. It was as dirty as it was when the Germans left it. Dirty I
mean dirty by their deeds. And then of course we talked to the survivors. And they told
us the stories, the terrible stories. And that, that was the point where normal anger turned
into real fury.
Interviewer: The…that was wonderful, thank you. You did a lot of things other than
that…
Crew Member: Chuck, Chuck can we pause for a sec?[cut]
Interviewer:…One of the reasons you had to be secretive was so as to not to get the
entire brigade in trouble but there was the other reason because whether it was Ben
Gurion or whoever said if you do too much of this we’ll be in trouble when we try and
get reparations.
Peltz: There were different reasons in different periods of time. At the beginning, the
reason was that it had to be a conspiracy. Nobody could know about it because then the
whole brigade could be in trouble. Then when we came back to Israel the reason was
Peltz i'view R. 157
3
different, as you probably remember. Ben Gurion negotiated with the Germans and with
? personally for the reparations finally led to the recognition of Germany by the state of
Israel and recognition of Israel by Germany and Ben Gurion was firmly against
disclosure because it could have torpedoed peace talks with the Germans. When this
period was over, Germany and Israel became quote unquote friendly states. Each
recognized the other and it would be very awkward for this particular moment to start
talking about it. Now, you must also remember that this was not a public knowledge. We
were a small group of disciplined men and if we decided not to talk, nobody talked. We
were not gossipers, we are different we are different group of men than normal crowd.
And today, at this time, there is again different. In 1997, young people, especially young
people cannot imagine, they cannot visionize they cannot feel the mood and the
circumstances and what we have seen and what we have felt, for them it would be an
outrage so we prefer to keep quiet again.
Interviewer: But right in 1945 when you were in Europe and doing this was there any
pressure from Palestine from anybody within the Haganah and from anywhere saying
“you better not do too much of this because we’ll be in trouble later with Germany” in
terms of reparations or did it all come later?
Peltz: No. We were cut off from what was then Palestine. We were cut off from our
institutions, nobody ordered us anything. It was the initiative and the doing of this small
group, not more than about twenty-five people.
Interviewer: So what made you stop?
Peltz: Again, the circumstances. You know that the brigade was shifted from Italy to
Belgium and to Holland because the British knew that something is going on, both in the
subject of vengeance and also the Aliyah Bet, illegal immigration into Israel. And the
British thought that if they move us away to the west of Europe we’d be too far away to
do any harm from their point of view. And they were quite right; it became much much
more difficult. Then, the other reason was the physical situation in Europe changed. In
1945, the frontiers were actually open, they were fluid. Nobody knew exactly who is
where and what is where; where the front is where. Things were not organized. It took a
few months for the powers to get organized to determine where the frontiers are and to
start guarding them properly. A few months after the end of the war, it was not easy
anymore to penetrate the frontiers and to steal the frontier and to sneak into towns and to
do what you had to do. And then, of course, the brigade was dispersed. And the brigade
was dispersed not in one day; we were discharged by groups. I went home in May, 1946,
some people went home even before me, some went after me. So the whole scheme
collapsed for the reasons that I have enumerated.
Interviewer: So how do you differentiate, then I want to go to the end then we are done.
How do you distinguish between the months that you were still in Tarvisio and the many
more months when you were actually up in Belgium and Holland? Because we’ve had
trouble determining in the movie what happened when and what was the major shift
besides the fact that it got harder. Did you do most of the work in the first few months?
Peltz i'view R. 157
4
Peltz: Yes, I think that most of the effective work was done in the first few months. As
the months passed, [coughs] sorry, it became more and more difficult, very simply. We
were less effective. The British were better organized. The British began to know what
is going on. The frontiers were closed and the frontiers were better guarded and I think
the first few months after the end of the war were most effective. When you are shifted
to western Europe, we continued the war, we still did a lot of good work but it was much
more difficult. [sneezes] Excuse me.
Interviewer: Okay. Let’s go to the last gap we have in the film which you haven’t seen
the ending where we have a number of comments and questions. I think we’re trying to
get a clearer understanding in as brief a time as you can say it of what you went home
and found and what you did to…when you were kind of called back into service to help
create and train the IDF and then finally what is really the legacy of the Jewish brigade
looking back across these fifty years? You can start with just the specifics of you know
how did you remain important to the future state of Israel when you came home? What
did you find?
Peltz: Well, as I told you yesterday, we did not come home as a brigade. When we came
home we were not an organized body, we were individuals. We were five and a half
thousand men. Everybody went home to his own business, to his own group. And, we
ceased to exist as an organized body and we joined other organized bodies in Israel.
Some people went to the kibbutz. Some people went to Palmach. Some people remained
in towns. Everybody, first of all, had to find out how he is going to live, to find a job, to
create a family and we that kept us very very very busy. We contributed to the IDF again
as individuals, not as a body. But, this individuals if not for the brigade would not have
the knowledge and would not have the drive to do what they have done. And again, I
think that I say this sometime. I am sorry, again.[blows nose]
Interviewer: It’s okay.
Peltz: It must be some dust here. You can cut it out. It is my belief and I think that
belief is shared by many in Israel that if not for the very early actions of the brigade in
organizing the illegal immigration to Palestine then, the state of Israel would not come
into being. At that time we were in Israel less than half a million people. The first wave
of the illegal immigration, which the brigade organized, and don’t let anybody tell you
different. It was not organized from Palestine. It was not organized Jewish Agency. It
was not organized by any organized body in Palestine. It was organized on the spot by
the brigade at the brigade’s initiative, and this is a fact. A lot of people try to take credit
today and claim that it was all organized by the institutions from Israel. That is nonsense.
There were no communications. They have no way to organize it; they had no people on
the spot. They could take no decisions. We did this all on our own initiative. And we
sent the first wave of illegal immigration to Israel, about a quarter of a million to three
hundred thousand men, mostly young men and young women, mostly men. Now, this
increased the population of Israel in 1948 by a quarter of a million young people. If not
for the quarter of a million young people we would not have been able to raise an army.
The other immigration, organized by the institutions in Israel, and I don’t detract from it,
they did a marvelous job, organizing the illegal immigration to Israel but it came a bit
Peltz i'view R. 157
5
later. The point was to have the men at the right time, at the right place and I think that
the brigade takes one hundred percent of the credit for the first wave of illegal
immigration. The second thing is, it was the brigade who created the desire to immigrate
to Israel. We were the force that let the Jews in Europe know that there is Israel, that
there is an organized community in Israel. That there are Jewish soldiers and that there is
a possibility, a feasible possibility, to come to Israel, and they started coming south to
Italy, to France. They concentrated in the ports, and slowly they started infiltrating to
Israel. Initially, it was organized by the brigade. Later on, when the brigade left, it was
organized by the institutions from Israel. But still, with many of the Jewish brigade men
who stayed in Europe after the brigade was dispersed.
Interviewer: Are we okay with “Israel” or do we want to say “Palestine”? Is that going
to be clear at this point?
Interviewer 2: That’s okay. At this point, he’s said it so many times…
Peltz: Now, the second part is in Israel. The Jewish brigade men, and to a certain extent
other Jewish volunteers to the British army were the only people in Israel at that time
who knew what a modern army is and how it should function. The others, just simply
didn’t know it. They never saw it. There was no staff college in Palestine in those days.
Interviewer: [doorbell.] Hang on. Let’s just let that door bell stop.
Peltz: Okay?
Interviewer: Go ahead. You can blow your nose again.
Peltz: Pardon?
Interviewer: You can blow your nose one more time. Let’s go back and just say this
second point which was when the men of the brigade came home they knew about…so
we have it as a full thought.
Peltz: The men from the brigade and particularly the officers were the only people in
Palestine, in those days, who knew what a modern army looks like and how it functions.
The only people who knew what a staff were. The only people who knew what is “called
a nation in the field.” The only people who knew how to move large bodies of troops
around. Haganah and Etzel and Lehi, they operated as individuals or as a very small
group. Ten people, five people. They haven’t had and they didn’t understand troops
army in bigger frameworks. And we brought this knowledge and we started educating
the Haganah men and others how to do it. Then when the Israeli army or the IDF
organizes itself, the ex-brigade men took very key positions in it as staff officers, built
commanders and I think they were the man contribution to the fact that the Israeli
Defense Forces organized themselves so quickly. Again, we have no time, we had to
organize and be in the field practically overnight.
[End of R. 157.]
Peltz i'view R. 157
6