Event ID: 2645416
Event Started: 8/27/2015 10:49:40 AM ET
Please stand by for realtime captions.
Good morning and welcome to session 2 of the how to use a decision-making model
for ethical dilemmas webinar. My name is Crystal George, and I will be the host for
today. Before you get started, I want to make sure that you can hear me. If you can,
please send an email to UNTWISE@UNT.edu, or use the question and answer box
and type in "yes", if you can hear me. Great. If you have questions during this session,
please use your question box or email them to UNTWISE@UNT.edu. If you're calling
them by phone only, please email UNTWISE@unt.edu to receive credit for the
information. At the end of this session I will provide more information. I would now
like to welcome back Debbie [ Indiscernible ] and introduce her partner. Martha is the
[ Indiscernible ] director at UNT WISE. They have been training for some time now. I
would now like to turn the presentation over to them.
Thank you, Crystal. Good morning, everybody. I hope you're having a great
Thursday. Good morning, Martha.
Good morning and welcome back.
So, both Martha Garber and I are attending this webinar part 2, we would like to thank
anyone who sent in scenarios. We incorporated them into the scenarios that we are
going to discuss today as well as a couple of other scenarios that we thought would be
helpful, that we actually have heard from other people in the past. So, as we go
through them, please let us know if you have any questions, and if there is time at the
end of this webinar, we can potentially take other questions but if time does not
permit, we will have to move on. And so, what we are going to do is review the
decision-making on the one more time before we get started. And then, Martha will
read each scenario and then she and I will kind of discuss them, based on this ethical
decision-making model. Sounds good, Martha?
Sounds great.
Let's get started. Okay, so we ended our last session by talking about the ethical
decision-making model. And so, to kind of get us started, let's revisit that one more
time. And it will be the decision-making model that we use for today. This is not
necessarily the only ethical decision-making model that you can use, however, we
found this one to be most helpful for us. So, if you do see other models out there and
they benefit you better, maybe they focus more on the ethical guidelines that you are
using for your certification, license, that is fine as well. But, this one will always be a
handy one in case you need something to use and it's a part of this presentation so you
will have a to review if needed. So, the first thing you want to do when faced with an
ethical dilemma is identify your personal response. You know, to what is happening.
We have personal responses as well as professional responses. I can attest that even
this morning, I got an email from a student and immediately, I was, like, thinking to
myself, you know, the student was frustrated and I was frustrated. That was my
personal response, not necessarily my professional response. So there can be times
when your personal response may be different than your professional response but
first and foremost, you should identify what your personal response is going to be.
I just want to say this is one of the things I like about this decision-making model. If
you don't understand your personal response to something, it can color your whole
professional response in an unflattering way.
Exactly. I totally agree.
And you are very kind when you say, well, I was frustrated. Because, sometimes I
find that I get angry and we all know that when we make decisions in anger, that is
not a good thing. So, if you can identify that response and then pay attention to it so it
does not color your professional response.
I totally, totally agree. As I mentioned, I was very frustrated sigh identify that in
myself and took a step back before responding to the students email. Often times you
will find yourself doing similar things when working with clients. You might get
angry or frustrated but you have to step back and say, wait a minute, let me identify
that and we will move forward. And then, let's list the facts. There again our personal
opinions, but then there are facts. The actual things you know. You know, not reading
too much into the situation. Let's focus on the facts of what has occurred. With your
consumer. Not again your own personal opinions or the opinions of others. And then,
conceptualize were initial plan. You have the facts, you have identified your personal
feelings about the situation or your response. And now, you're going to start thinking
about what might be your initial plan of action. Then, you might want to look at your
agency's policies. Because there might be some guidelines to kind of assist you to
working through this dilemma. Certain agencies will provide really good policies and
procedures that will be a really good guide in terms of maybe confidentiality,
informed consent, could also include some other ethical guidelines. So, consult your
agency's policies. Then, we talked about the six ethical principles on our last session.
Those being autonomy, you know, the right to self-rule and have independence,
perhaps, for the consumer. Being able to do good for others, in particular for your
clients and consumers in this case. Nonmaleficence. You know, you don't want to
necessarily cause any harm or do anything that could potentially cause harm to your
consumers or clients. And then, the notion of fidelity or to be faithful. If you provide a
service, you follow through and provide that service. Justice should be fair. Again, to
be fair with the consumer you are working with and potentially to be fair with other
service providers or that -- or the potential employer you are working with. And then,
veracity. To be honest with the consumer or client in that situation. So after you have
come up with an initial plan, then you are going to examine those six ethical
principles and feet, okay, how does my initial plan impact these principles? Then you
might want to think if there are legal issues. As we mentioned last session, there is a
difference between what is legal and what is ethical. And so again, this might be a
stop gate for you where it might be something that is illegal or unlawful that is the
potential for you to have to report or to have to talk to your supervisor about. Or, there
may be no legal issues. Often times, there are no legal issues but you should always
check to make sure when you're looking at an ethical dilemma, to see if there are any
legal issues or any potential legal issues that could come from this dilemma. Then
again, after you have looked at those ethical principles and any legal issues, refine the
plan. Okay, at the beginning, I thought, you know, I was going to tell the employer.
But, now that I have looked at the ethical principles, I realize if I have talked to the
employer, it could do wrong to my consumer. Just an example. So now you refine
your plan. Then, you're going to choose your course of action and sit down with the
consumer. Again, that is getting the consumer or client involved in the process. As we
mentioned with the six ethical principles, you're trying to do good for the consumer as
well as get your consumer involved in the process. Even when we talked about the
other humans services ethical guidelines as well as the ones for supported
employment, that notion of having involvement with the client or consumer is very,
very important. So, when working with an ethical dilemma, it is important once you
have decided on a particular plan of action to let your consumer now, because as we
all know, if you are part of a situation and someone makes a decision that will impact
you, you will want to know as well. Then, implement that plan. You know, you
monitor the plan, if you need to readjust, again, have a discussion with your consumer
if needed. And, you can also consult with your supervisor or other colleagues. And,
there is a way to consoles without disclosing information about your client that would
break confidentiality. Or, if the client has assigned any informed consent, that you
could discuss his or her case with coworkers or colleagues and your supervisor. And,
you could also go to someone and consults. I often find that consultation is one of the
best ones for me personally. Because usually, if it is a situation I'm facing for the first
time, this is not the first time that a situation has been faced by other colleagues or in
particular by my supervisor. Martha, do you have anything you want to add to that?
I think that's really good. I have always liked this model, and the other piece I would
like to encourage folks is to document what you do. If it ever comes back to you, why
did you make this decision, and you can show that you have used this decisionmaking model, that you have wait out the principles, you look at the legal issues,
you've consulted with your colleagues, if you have gone through these steps, you are
less likely to have an adverse reaction from your actions.
I agree, totally agree.
Okay, well I'm ready to move on.
Me too.
All right. Here we go. Example 1.
Okay, your example is, the consumer accept a position without the job placement
specialist knowledge. Now, this has never happened to anybody before, right?
[ Laughter ]
The consumer reports that he was terminated after two weeks for arriving late to
work. The consumer wants the placement specialist to go to the employer and
overturned the employer's decision. I think I have heard this one many times in real
life.
[ Laughter ]
Of course.
So, what would my first reaction be? I probably would not be very happy.
I would agree.
[ Laughter ]
It could be that anger or frustration. How could you lose the job? Why would you take
this job? I can totally agree with that.
Yes. And why did you take a job you could not get too on time? You know, there
could be all kinds of reasons why the consumer couldn't arrive to work on time. We
don't know what those reasons are, from this example. It could be he's on a bus route.
Or, he is taking a transportation service that is not arriving on time. There could be
lots of reasons, other than a problem that the consumer has created through his
behavior. Does that make sense, what I'm saying?
Yes, yes. There could be many reasons. But your personal response, again, is one of
anger and frustration. But, the fact, you know, when we talk about listing the facts.
List the facts.
That person has accepted a job, has been terminated and the consumer has reported to
you that he was terminated for being late to work.
Now, in this scenario, and as well, we do now. We don't know much about the job.
The person, the placement specialist does not know anything about the job because he
or she wasn't consulted.
Exactly.
So, there's an unknown there, too.
Exactly.
So, what would conceptualizing your initial plan B?
So, for me, my conceptualization of the initial plan, again, you know, maybe, okay,
clearly I need to sit down and talk with consumer and get more facts about what really
happened. And also, I might want to talk to the employer. The person who hired this
consumer with the permission from the consumer to see exactly what may have
occurred on that end of it. As well. That might be my initial plan, to talk to both the
consumer as well as the employer.
With that initial plan entail -- it would be more fact-finding, I guess is what I'm
getting at. It would not necessarily entail overturning the employer's decision, right?
Correct. Because in following that ethical decision-making route, it would be, okay,
I'm still trying to gather facts. Because also, you know, after I have looked at my
agency policy, they may say that you don't have the right to, you know, turnover and
employer's decision. I can only focus on what is being decided on my agency.
Yeah, I can't imagine how anybody would have that authority unless you were the
employer.
[ Laughter ]
That's right.
So then, we analyzed the plan in terms of the six ethical principles.
And I think, you know, we see a lot of things in those six ethical principles that are at
play here. You know, you have the consumer, who obviously, you know, wants to be
autonomous. And wants to get to their own job and say, okay, I took this job on my
own and it did not say anything to you about it. There's also, though, that notion of
you know, I want to do good by the consumer, the [ Indiscernible ] piece, and then I
want to see the consumer succeed and be sex full in the job. And again, there is that
notion of no harm. I don't want any harm to come to my consumer. However, even
going through those, there's also a notion of being honest. And then me, you know, as
a supportive employment specialist or job placement specialist, being honest with my
consumers. Saying okay, you know, you took this job. I was not aware of this and
many have lost this job. How we are going to move forward, instead of saying, let me
fix this for you. Because is that going to help them if I say, I'm going to call this
employer and we are going to get your job back. How is that going to be helpful for
them?
Or would it even be helpful to the person? You know, we don't know. So, your plan
looks like, you know, your initial plan, there is no legal issues that I see here.
Me neither.
And then refining the plan, the initial plan, seems like a pretty decent plan. So, you
probably just talk with your consumer about it now?
Yeah. I would probably sit down with my consumer and say, okay, here's what I'm
thinking. Tell me how you feel about this, including the consumer in that process.
You know, I would like to get more information from you regarding this situation.
Collect that information. And if it's okay with you, I would like to speak to your
employer. In some cases, I would say you know, it would be beneficial for you to
have the consumer present with you when speaking to the employer. However in other
cases, it may not be as beneficial because the employer may not feel as open and
honest with you if the consumer is involved. So, that also is something you have to
kind of think about. Would you like the consumer to go with you when speaking to
the employer? Which could be beneficial. Or would you like to speak with the
employer by her self?
Yeah, and it's just a matter of figuring out by the situation. You know, either way
would be fine. Whatever you learn with the employer, though, you probably ought to
share that with your consumer. Because that information will help them as they go
forward in their job search or go forward in trying to maintain other jobs that they
may be able to get. I would think.
Yeah, I totally agree. As Martha mentioned, it could be something as simple as the
employee was late due to transportation. And that might be something that you could
assist the consumer with, with either learning a different bus route, if they are taking
public transportation, or helping them with better time management. [ Indiscernible ]
in order to be to work on time, going forward in a potential job. You know, or, it
could be something that the consumer is not aware of. You know, maybe you thought
they lost the job because they relate, but there were other maybe social skills that the
consumer was exhibiting on the jobsite that the employer was not comfortable with.
And that can make a difference.
Yes. So I agree with you. I thought of that, too. Because the consumer reports this is
the reason they lost the job. It may or may not be there true reason they lost the job.
Correct. Enter now for many of us who are probably on this webinar, we have
probably face this situation before. I know in my previous work environment, this has
happened to me as well aware he had a consumer that had a job, and it was one that I
was aware of. They lost the job and they told me it was for one reason but once I
spoke with the employer, they told me it was for a different reason.
Yeah, it does happen. I don't see that we got any questions. Did we get any questions
or comments on this one?
We have one. At one point could we go to the employer and talk about the job? Or
would we?
Go ahead, sorry, Martha.
I would think it would be at the point that the consumer gives you permission to do
so.
That's exactly what I was going to say.
Oh, were you going to say that?
[ Laughter ]
Yes. Because the consumer would have to give you that kind of authorization for
that.
And that goes back to that autonomy again. That line of consumer to be selfgoverning, independent and part of the process.
And it goes to confidentiality, closure, who owns that right to disclose. And so, yeah.
Anything else?
That was the only question at this time.
Well, that was a good question. Okay. Let's look at the next one.
Okay, there we go. I'm ready.
Oh, this is a good one. I googled the consumer I am providing supported employment
services for as they do with all of the consumer's I serve. I discovered inappropriate
pictures of sexual nature on the dating site. As I am male, what is the ethical way to
approach her about the pictures?
And boy, isn't this very relevant to today? You know, with social media, you often
will see, you know, everybody is putting pictures up, whether it's on Facebook, or
dating sites, and some of them are quite, you know, appropriate photos, sharing with
family and friends, and some may be of a different nature. And, what I have noticed is
a lot more people who are on dating sites and meeting people. The thing is, as we
point out in our example, what you may post on a dating site may not be the same as
what you would want your potential employer to see. So you know, this could be a
very interesting scenario.
You know, I think we see this more, like, with Facebook and some of the other things,
too. And, there are many of these sites that you actually can Google and the pictures
will show up. So, it is pretty apparent. And, most people Google, I think, a lot of
employees are potential in their Google employees. Our googling their potential
employees. So, the practice of googling is probably a good one and try to get the
consumer to Google themselves also. That is the other thing I would encourage. So
that they can see what other people see.
Exactly. You may not be aware, I googled myself one day and there was a photo and I
thought, how did this even get there? You might not even know what is out there.
So the personal response to this, if I was in a female consumer, I think I would be
shocked. Kind of scared, maybe, of talking to this person about this kind of material.
It would not be a pleasant response.
And I would agree. I would probably be very nervous, too, about having to have this
conversation with my client. And it's okay, again, to be nervous, or to be shy. You
know, as Martha mentioned, the important thing is to recognize that this could have an
impact on your professional response, so you might as well go ahead and
acknowledge what you feel in your initial response.
Yes. And listing the facts. The fact is, there is an inappropriate picture that is out there
of the consumer that could hurt them and it has the potential of hurting them, in terms
of finding employment.
Yes. It's out there for you and anyone else to see.
And so, that is just it. And that is pretty much it. The googling of consumers is a
practice to try to find out what information is out there, what information see. It is not
a bad practice, I don't think.
I know that is something we definitely have been telling our students to do as well.
Yeah. So, what would be the initial plan?
I know for me, my initial plan would be to, you know, contact the consumer and, you
know, either speak via phone or's -- or face-to-face preferably, and let her know, okay,
I Google all of my consumers. And you know, I found these photos of you. Potential
employers could see this to kind of start thinking about how am I going to sit down
with my client and discuss this? I definitely don't think in my initial plan would be,
oh, nevermind, I definitely will address it with the consumer.
And I think it is important that we not do it in a judgmental way. That it has to be, this
picture is here, it could keep you from getting a job. And, not get into personal
opinions about the behavior or what that could, you know, -- listen to me, the way I'm
having a hard time with my words.
Now, I understand.
I think that is exactly what we need to practice these things. Because they are hard
topics to talk about. And, to make sure that you stay very clearly focused on the
implement peace, and see, when I talk about employment, I have no difficulty talking,
do I?
[ Laughter ]
Because it is about the employment.
Again, remember the scenario. It is a male talking to a female. We talked on the other
session about cultural response. You have a man speaking to a woman, you might be
approaching this from two different perspectives. So again, if you focus more on that
implement peace, which for many of us, makes the conversation a little bit easier, then
you don't see your self going on that road of having a conversation about sex and
dating that you may not be prepared to have that conversation. I myself, freely open to
talk about that. However, that can be in -- and uncomfortable situation to have with
your client. So again, not being judgmental about the photos were being on a dating
site that's focusing specifically on what you're supposed to do which is employment.
Yes, I think we have a question or comment.
We do have a comment. It says, I think the counselor should tell the consumer upfront
that he will be googling. Doing it then, saying something will break trust.
I completely agree. In our first session, that would be awesome, or when you first
meet the client or consumer and say I just want you to know, I have this policy, I
Google all of my clients and consumers. So if there is something that could potentially
be out there, if you could let me know. Or, you might also want to do the same so that
we are both not caught offguard.
Yeah, and I agree also. You should never do anything within your employment
process that you have not discussed with the consumer. Including googling, and really
and truly, if we are not having discussions about our social media presence with our
consumers, we are not doing them a good service.
I agree. Keeping up with the times. We know that social media is out there, you might
as well have that conversation.
Yes, really, things have changed, and that is an essential part of the discussion. Even
if you are into placement specialist, and that is your position, that is what you need to
be looking at with them. Is how their presence through social media also affects. If
you are the counselor, you have a little broader, larger impact on that individual. The
roles are very different.
And I will say, you know, I'm not a huge social media person. I'm not on there all the
time. However, it is a conversation I find myself having with students quite frequently
because I know that is something that is kind of very relevant right now. And that is
also a part of you as a professional continually updating and educating yourself on the
practices that are occurring now. Okay, so let's talk about those ethical principles.
Maybe you have looked at agency guidelines and you don't see anything in there
about googling or social media. Or, maybe there is a policy about social media. If so,
then you can address that with the consumer. I think when we are talking about those
ethical principles, you know, that notion of being there and letting the consumer
know, hey, I Google all of my clients are consumers, they don't just think, oh, it's just
me. I can't believe you're out there looking at these photos of me. So, they don't get
that you are digging for information about them and no one gets nervous that you
might be stalking them. It is something you should use as a practice with all of your
clients.
I always say, because this is what employers do.
Exactly bid you know, continually stressed that notion of employers and
employment.
Exactly. It needs to be related to what you are there to work with them on.
Exactly. Because you don't want the consumer to get the wrong impression.
Continually focusing on this is related to employment and potential employers. And
let them know, I have told you what's out there. I've told you what potential employers
may see. It's up to you to now take these photos down. If you choose not to, then this
could be, you know, harmful to your ability to get a job. So again, you're not
overstepping your boundary and getting online and taking down their photos or
anything.
Oh, no, no, no, very good point. That is not your job.
Correct.
[ Laughter ]
Again, it gets them involved with that process. And then, you want to not spring any
harm to your consumers. It is that notion of nonmaleficence and beneficence about
doing good to your consumer. And again, I think you look at the legal issues. Is this
person of age? If they are not a minor. If it is a minor, we are talking about something
completely different. However, if this person is of age and had the right to post these
photos, okay. Then again, you know, I think you think about how to address this with
the consumer and sit down and have a conversation with the consumer, you know,
regarding what you have seen and how this can impact their overall employment.
Yeah. And hopefully you will make a plan with them to help them clean up their
social media profiles so that they will be able to move forward. And hopefully it will
work out that way.
And I would also like to add as we have gone through this, something came to mind
for me. Your consumer truly may not be aware that these photos are out there.
Especially think about our words with individuals who are blind and visually
impaired, and being somebody who is blind or visually impaired, photos are not at the
forefront of my thinking. I should just be honest. Of what photos might be out there of
me, because as somebody who cannot see very well, you may have consumers who
just truly are not aware of, oh, my God, there's a picture out there of me in an
inappropriate scenario.
And frankly, it might not have been them that posted that.
This is also very true, which could move you into another realm.
Correct.
Okay, either any other comments or consultations? Again, I would document this.
Again, document, document.
Oh, another question?
Yes, what about sending consumers on social media either while you're working with
them or after you have worked with him?
I personally have a policy that for me, I do not friend clients or student. Especially
those that I am engaged in classes with or teaching, from a social standpoint. Now,
there are different types of social media and Facebook. Let me also say that. Because
our department has its own Facebook page that is for the students. So, if it is a
professional type of social media, okay. But, for my own personal social media, no.
Because it goes back to again, what we talked about last week with those your
relationships, boundaries, and how now if you are friending someone on Facebook,
you open yourself up to into a relationship. So now you have professional and a
personal relationship with someone, you know, via social media. Versus if you are
friends with someone on a professional social media, that still keeps your professional
relationship intact. Martha?
I agree. If there is some kind of employment focused steering site, LinkedIn,
something like that, you know, that could be a part of that. What, if it is your personal
social, then you are getting to her that slippery slope.
Totally agree.
And I hope that was helpful.
Me too. Are we ready to move on?
Yes, ma'am. That was the only question.
Thank you.
All right, Martha.
Okay, and if that person would like to follow up with that, I'd be interested in hearing
what else they are concerned about. With regards to that. Because I have to say that
this whole realm of social media and connecting through it is changing the way we do
business. Big-time. And so, what was true last year may not be true again in the years
to come. But, what I think will always be true, and I don't see it turning anything, is
that ethics that prohibit us from having dual relationships.
Agreed.
But, the media is changing, so how that is interpreted I think will change as time goes
on, too. So, I had to say that. Timeout for letting me.
Now, thank you. That was a great comment.
The next scenario, you have been working with a consumer that has a mental health
disorder for several weeks to gain employment. The Consumer Reports not having
much luck with retaining employment. While completing job placement services with
the consumer to find employment, you are contacted by a potential employer, the
employer asks you, what is the consumer's disability? How do you proceed?
Oh, boy.
[ Laughter ]
Okay. This is a very common one, too.
And I would agree. Especially if you are working with a consumer who has what we
call a hidden disability. In this case, if someone with a mental health disorder. You
know, it could also be someone with a developmental disorder. It could be so many
different types of disabilities that you can enter here that people would not necessarily
understand or know is a disability, versus some of your more visible disabilities, like
someone who is a wheelchair user or someone who is deaf or hard of hearing or blind
and uses a cane.
Yeah, my favorite knee-jerk response to this one has been the same for some time. If
the consumer or employee asked me this, my knee-jerk is to say, the biggest disability
is it doesn't have a job and need to go to work. And, because that is really what we
should be focusing on with the employer, is what the person can do and what kind of
job they have that might match the employer's needs.
That is a great personal response. I would say. That is obviously not what I would say.
My personal response is, you know, had this been said to me is, this is none of your
business right now.
[ Laughter ]
Well, there you go.
But again, that is my personal response. And so I want people to know, Martha and I
are both humans. So it's not always going to be, oh, my personal response. No, no,
that would be my personal response but that it would not necessarily be my
professional response either.
While actually, I might say that.
[ Laughter ]
Okay, so, what are the facts? The facts are you are working with a person who needs a
job. The employer wants to know what the disability is. Is that it?
Yes, and, your consumer is having difficulty finding employment. Also.
Okay, so what would be your initial plan? Because I heard that you wanted to tell him
it's none of his business. But, that is probably not very diplomatic.
Correct.
So how can you say it?
Without saying, hey, get out of here, you can't know this.
And actually, that is what my response is. The disability is needing a job, which is
really the disability makes no difference.
Exactly. And, that would be my initial plan. You know, to discuss with the potential
employer that the disability here is the unemployment, the ability to get a job. And the
person's actual disability does not necessarily have an impact at this time. I'm here to
help him or her get a job.
And really, if the skills that the potential job seeker or potential employee has is what
the employer needs, the disability is irrelevant.
Correct.
If you can do the job, it does not make any difference what your disability is.
Totally agree. Because I will say this, as many of you know, whether you are using
ADA or other types of federal regulations, if it is a federal employment, once you
disclose that disability, there is no going back. So also, if you tell the employer that
this is this person's disability, you have taken that right away from that individual to
disclose whatever information they want to give that employer.
Well, you really can't. And, we will identify the legal issues as we go on down. But, I
have also noticed that this decision-making model is not necessarily a list of things
that you follow chronologically.
Oh, I totally agree.
But the first thing is, do you have permission to even answer that question? And if
you don't have permission to answer that question, you cannot answer it. So, there
would be a legal issue. A restriction. And probably, there will be some agency policy
and we know professional ethics that would prohibit you from doing that.
That is what I was going to say. Most agencies who work with individuals with
disabilities probably have some policy about disclosure and about disclosing any
information about a consumer without his or her permission. Whether it is disability,
gender, you know, race, sexual orientation, etc.
And, that permission really is given on a case-by-case basis. So, you really don't have
permission to tell one employee, you need to ask them, what can I talk to this one
about? It should not be assumed that you have permission across the board.
Correct. I think that is what makes this scenario so good. Because you think, oh, such
a simple scenario, it's the clients disability. Oh, I will just go ahead and tell them.
Now, you can necessarily do that. Or, you will tell the none of your business, like my
personal response might also not be a good route to take either. It is a little bit more
complex than what you might think.
Yeah. And in this case, you may be like the politicians we see so much on the TV.
Answer the question that is posed to you.
Correct.
So, feel free not to answer the direct questions. And turn your comments back, either
the assets of the individual that you have, or the job that the employer is working at
selling.
Because if you do, again, as Martha mentioned, try to answer the question, you could
do some harm to your client when we think about those principles. You could harm
the client if you disclose that disability. Perhaps this potential employer has their own
anxieties or stigma about individuals with mental illness, you know, who knows? So,
you could be harming the client. If you disclose. I do think, though, in this process,
and working with the consumer, it is important for you to have the conversation with
your consumer about disclosure. And how and when and what to do and what not to
do kind of situation.
You know, and another thing that you could do, another possible -- I know that we are
conceptualizing plans right now. But, ask the employer, what is your concern about
this disability? And let that employer talk about disability so that you are not focusing
on a consumer. And then again, as you talk to him about his concerns, talk about what
we do in terms of, you know, when people with disabilities are matched to where the
disability is not important anymore. And, it is just true. And it proves that over and
over and over.
It goes back to, again, what we talked about last week. As part of your ethical
guidelines as a good professional, it's to educate potential employers about disability.
So that once a client or consumer does get place, the employer does not necessarily
focused on the consumer's disability. So this is your opportunity to kind of educate the
employer, you know, not necessarily about that particular consumer, but about
addressing their concerns in terms of disability and employment.
Okay. So, what did we decide our plan was going to be?
To talk to the employer, potentially, and I also think and talk to the consumer. And
talk to them perhaps about disclosure. Because again, that is a consumer's right, to
disclose. And when to disclose. And so some consumers do and some don't. And that's
fine.
Well, I get this dilemma is one that hits you in the face and you kind of need to have
this thought out before.
[ Laughter ]
Before you get the question from the employer.
Exactly.
And so I think that is the other thing. If you are in a conversation with an employer,
and you have not already touched on these bases with the consumer, you are going to
stutter a lot more than you will if you have already discussed this and kind of had an
understanding about what that response is going to be. And of course, that has to
include the consumer that your speaking with.
And I will say, the more comfortable you are about talking to employers about
disability in general, the more comfortable employees will be about hiring people with
disabilities.
I couldn't agree with you more.
And even for people, you know, who may have what we consider those visible
disabilities, you could see a person with a disability, it is still important to talk to them
about disclosure as well, because that can be difficult for anyone with a disability.
The other thing I'm thinking about with this, too, Brandy, is that this may be a general
question that comes from the employer that is more of what you and your agency
response will be. Because it's, like, you will be known for working with people with
disabilities. So, the employer knows that you are bringing somebody to them that that
person is likely to have a disability and wants to know more about the disability. That
is something you're going to have to work on also with your agency, to figure out
what your response to that is. And again, I do believe that when we talk about what
we do with matching, what we do with trying to make sure that the person, the
business, the culture, the skills, what is needed from that, that that all matches, and we
are in a better place to deal with the concerns of the employer. Which are not specific
to types of disabilities in an individual.
And I also think definitely consulting, as I mentioned, with your agency. Because I'm
sure this is probably not the first time someone has been faced with this dilemma. We
have about 10 minutes. Crystal, do you have a question regarding this before we move
on to the last one?
We just had a comment reiterating what you all were talking about. That he should
have that discussion upfront with the consumer if you are allowed to discuss their
disability. And if the employer asks you about somebody's disability, just begin
talking about the requirements of the job and the abilities the consumer has.
[ Laughter ]
Good comment.
Oh, we like that, we like that. Okay. Well, let's move onto the next one. Okay. Chris
wants to be a landscaper. He wants a landscaping job. My company has a crew
contract with the base outside of town. One of the crew just left, and we need a body
to fill that contract. Chris could do the work but my boss is putting pressure on me to
fill the job. Would it be okay to talk to Chris and take a job which pays better than the
landscaping jobs I have seen?
Well, I think we both had the same reaction to this one. Yeah, this one is tough. My
reaction is, oh, that's bad. Because you want to please your boss. And, you want to
please Chris. So, that would be a lot of conflict there.
I would agree. Because you are trying to, you know, keep your job, while also keep
your client, you know, happy. So, you're trying to keep two people happy and you are
in the middle.
Yet, in the middle, the squeeze.
[ Laughter ]
So, list the facts. So, the facts are, you've got an opening in a job as a crew contract.
The job pays more than the landscaping job setting of look for for Chris. Chris want a
landscaping job.
And this is not a landscaping job.
And this is not a landscaping job. This would be, probably, an inside job. I'm
assuming this is the janitorial crew.
Yes, I would assume the same.
So it would be the complete opposite of what he has asked for.
Correct.
Okay.
So these are the facts.
Okay, so conceptualize the initial plan.
My initial plan? I'm thinking, okay, I should sit down and tell Chris about this
opportunity. But also, keeping in mind that telling him I know this is not the job that
he wants at this time.
Okay. And you probably wouldn't go into, I'm assuming, you would not take pressure
-- put pressure on him to take the job.
No, no. But I would definitely present it to him.
Yeah. Okay, so consult the agency policies and professional ethics. So well, you
know, there may be some professional ethics involved in that, of course, in agency
policies. And the other thing that is not on here is contracts. Contract obligations,
which would go under legal. Because I know that if you work for [ Indiscernible ],
you can't hire anybody to work for you as an employee and get, you know, credit for
the employment. So, there would be a legal issue with that. A contract issue. It would
not benefit your company, which might be something you could point out to your
boss.
Correct. Which would help you with the squeeze.
Which would help you with the squeeze, yes.
But then again, I think about when you have that conversation with Chris, and Chris
could be male or female in this case. You have the conversation with Chris and your
but Chris now, here is a job opportunity that has come available. It is going to pay
more than the jobs that we have currently found, in terms of landscaping, but, I know
this is not really what you want to do. And it goes back to the principle of autonomy,
and that person's ability to choose. They can make their own decisions. Maybe Chris
says, you know what? This is not landscaping. However, I really need a job. I really
need to make money and I'm sure for many of us, we have all done a job that we did
not like and it was not everything job, but you need the money. And Chris may
decide, okay, yeah, I'm going to take it. Chris may also decide, this is a risk I'm
willing to take. I don't want to work inside. I don't like working inside that I really
want to work outside with trees and plants. But, you have percent of that option to
Chris. And you are honest and faithful. And you disgusted with the consumer.
You know, the other thing is if Chris did take that job, would you continue to look for
a job that he wants for him? See, that's another part of that plan. Maybe when you
initialize the plan, you talk to him about it and Chris says, well, okay, maybe I will
consider it. But, he will still look for a job that I really want. Can you keep looking for
Chris? And find that landscaping job that he really wants and continue with the same
level of [ Indiscernible ] that you had before? You know, so I think that is part of that
decision, too.
And in some employment situations you can. But I know also in sum, it might be in
agency policy that says, once you have found Chris a job, you can't do it. And then
again, I think there is the notion of consult. Okay, maybe or supervisor has told you
this, so maybe you can't sleep at night, you get up the next day into going to talk to
your supervisor and say okay, you know, I know that you said this, this opening, I'm
working with Chris. Chris really wants to work in landscaping and really does not
want to do this particular, you know, job. And your supervisor could say, okay, all
right, stick with the landscaping. Or they could say, okay, well you know, in this
instance, maybe Chris could take this job and you can continue to look for another
job. But, your supervisor may not be aware of the client or clients means either. I don't
need to rush us. I know that we have one more.
Okay, we will move on to the next one, what is the next one?
The consumer lives with my in-laws. He has a pattern of distorting the truth. I am in
the middle of a work relationship and a personal relationship. He has had every family
function. He talks about my family and what happened at the last gathering. While he
has a day job worksite. How can I get out of the [ Indiscernible ]?
That's another one where my personal response, you know again is, give him the
squeeze.
Right. And I would probably be angry. I would probably have some anger with this.
To be in the middle of all of this. And I would be nervous for my job, probably.
Yeah, I would agree with both of those. You know, you are here, you're trying to
work, and now you have someone with a personal connection to you. You know.
Yeah. And I have got to believe that this is probably coming from an area of a state
where there are fewer resources. And if that is true, then your options are even
smaller. Go ahead.
Because again, if your options are smaller, where is the consumer going to go if there
is not another, you know, worksite? Or, where are you going to go? You have been at
this job and now you are going to think about some [ Indiscernible ] for this person?
That may also not be beneficial.
Well, I will say, and I know that we are three minutes away, making an ethical
decision out of a dilemma can sometimes be painful and it can cost you money.
Yes.
I have seen people having to leave jobs, because of ethics. And, you know, I am not
saying that this is going to be one of them. But, it could be, to do the ethical thing,
would mean to remove your self from something. And it's difficult. I know that that
has happened to me, in the past, where I would have to remove myself from a group,
because there was a consumer there. And the group was not of the type that he could
not end up having a dual relationship that would be [ Indiscernible ] to you and the
person. And, the only thing that the professional has, professional is the only thing we
have control over, if our own behavior.
Correct.
So you can't expect the consumer to do something different. You have to make these
decisions, based on your own behavior.
And in this case, perhaps it is that when you see the consumer at the day job site, miss
you don't engage with that person. Maybe you remove yourself from the situation, so
maybe you cannot necessarily remove yourself from the job or that individual from
the day job, but maybe you could remove yourself from being in close contact with
that individual.
Yeah. So, I really wish we had more time. But, Brandy, it is 10:59.
Oh, we get so into these.
I know. And we probably should have had another 30 minutes but we didn't. Crystal,
is there any comments that we should address before we close?
We did just have a concept -- comment about this example. The person who submitted
a says and as of yesterday, I now have to take him to church and it is in Graham,
Texas.
So, that is a small town. Yeah, and if this person would like to call and talk to one of
us after this is over, we can talk with him briefly about this situation. I would be glad
to do that.
Yes, definitely.
Okay. Brandy, do you want to close it out?
Yes. I wish we had more time but unfortunately we don't. I definitely want to thank
everybody for their participation, comments and scenarios that we sent in. So sorry we
cannot give more time to this scenario but as Martha mentioned, if you want to call,
we can try to assist you. Thanks again to Martha for also helping as well.
Enjoyed it. Thanks, Crystal.
Everyone have a great Thursday.
Thank you both. I'd like to remind everyone who has been listening that you will
receive an email with a valuation -- and evaluation surveillance. Once you have
completed the survey, a certificate of completion will be uploaded to the portal on the
UNT WISE website. As always, we are offering credit for this seminar. Please contact
us at UNTWISE@unt.edu if you need a CRC form. Thank you for your attendance
and attention and have an excellent day.