Interview by President Hamid Karzai with the National Broadcasting Company
(NBC)
6 December, Thursday, 2012
ATIA ABAWI, NBC CORRESPONDENT: Thank you Mr. President for sitting down with
NBC News. We'd like to start with the security situation and get your perspective as to where the
security situation in Afghanistan is at the moment and if the Afghan forces will be able to take on
the lead with the security for the country by 2014.
PRESIDENT KARZAI: Well, with regard to security in Afghanistan it is relatively better this
year in terms of attacks on our forces, on our people, but it isn't what the Afghan people want, it
isn't satisfactory. We still have tons of our people dying almost every day…in mine blasts and
IED attacks and similar other attacks. So, if you speak comparatively, we are doing better than
last year and the year before but it isn't satisfactory and we’re not yet sure if this is a trend that
will keep improving.
On the question of the readiness, the preparedness of the Afghan security forces, they are quite
ready I can say with confidence to handle the security of the country, the threats to this country
on their own and to receive the full transition of authority to them in 2014 rather than in 2013
and to have the departure of the foreign forces from Afghanistan completed in 2014.
NBC CORRESPONDENT: And who would you say is behind the majority of the insecurity? Is
it Al-Qaeda, is it the Taliban, is it someone else?
PRESIDENT KARZAI: Well the name Taliban has been used very often, there's no doubt that
some of the attacks are done by the Taliban. There's also no doubt in many instances this
trademark name the Taliban is used by all sorts of players. Al-Qaeda, I don't think has a presence
in Afghanistan. I don't even know if Al-Qaeda exists as an organization as it’s being spoken
about. So all we know is that we have insecurity. Part of the insecurity is definitely coming to us
from terrorism and the attacks of the Taliban. Part of the insecurity is coming to us from the
structures that NATO and America created in Afghanistan - the private security firms, the
contractors that they promoted at the cost of the Afghan people and the way they behaved with
the Afghan people and the anger that has caused in the Afghan people and the resulting
insecurity*
NBC CORRESPONDENT: So, from what I’m gathering some of these private security
companies are also behind the insecurity here in Afghanistan. In fact, when we look at provinces
like Logar and Wardak that border the capital province of Kabul, there's much insecurity in those
provinces and I’ve heard from some Afghan officials that they say it’s actually NATO and the
international community who’s behind the insecurity in those provinces and not necessarily the
Taliban. Would you say that's a correct statement?
PRESIDENT KARZAI: No doubt that the province of Maidan-Wardak is very much insecure,
the people there are under constant threat of insecurity and there is for a number of years now a
growing perception in Afghanistan that a significant part of insecurity in Afghanistan is caused
by the way the United States and some of its allies promoted lawlessness in Afghanistan by
spreading corruption in Afghanistan, by employing private security firms who became a law on
their own, who became a force responsible to nobody and who behaved exactly as thugs and you
know militias. There were also contracts and contractors for all supplies and all of the supplies
who were ridden with corruption, who bribed people along the way and who through cause of
corruption brought us insecurity in addition to the suspicion that people have that some of the
attacks in the name of the Taliban are actually those who are trained or rather unleashed by the
international forces in Afghanistan. That that perception is strong and is countrywide.
NBC CORRESPONDENT: So, would you say that you believe that some of these would be
intentional insecurity brought by NATO and the United States?
PRESIDENT KARZAI: There is a very strong perception that some of that insecurity is
intentional, yes.
NBC CORRESPONDENT: Last spring, you and President Obama signed a strategic
partnership between the United States and Afghanistan for beyond 2014 and you decided that
within the year you'll also sign a security agreement. From my understanding it has come to a
halt because of the Bagram detainee situation, can you explain where you are right now in that
security agreement?
PRESIDENT KARZAI: I'll go first to the strategic partnership agreement. We signed the
strategic partnership agreement with expectation and the hope that after signing the strategic
partnership agreement the nature of the United States activity in Afghanistan would change. We,
as you know, began to believe nearly five, six years ago that the war on terror is not in
Afghanistan. That by attacking Afghan villages and Afghan homes you cannot defeat terrorism
because that's not where it is. And rather than concentrating on the sanctuaries-- Afghans paid a
heavy price in this war. So, we began to work with the United States and our other allies to
change this, to bring a shift. Signing the partnership of strategic relations was the method for us
to bring a change from that approach in which the Afghans paid a heavy price to a relationship in
which the United States would have presence in Afghanistan but would change its behavior and
would respect Afghan sovereignty. Well, that was signed. The Afghan people backed it, happy
that we have signed it.
The second phase in that is to be the signing of [the] security agreement between Afghanistan
and the United States. Talks are going on. We have not yet ordered a halt to-to negotiations on
this, but we have raised issues with the United States because the agreement, the Memorandum
of Understanding between us and the United States, on the United States not taking prisoners in
Afghanistan and not keeping prisoners in Afghanistan has not been respected. Has not been
fulfilled as it was envisaged in the document that we signed. Therefore, I have written to
President Obama that the Afghan people will not allow its government to enter into a security
agreement while the United States continues to violate Afghan sovereignty and Afghan loss.
NBC CORRESPONDENT: Has President Obama responded to that letter?*
PRESIDENT KARZAI: He-- he has not, the letter has just been sent. Well-- the response will
either be-- in the form of another letter to me by President Obama or that-- perhaps we will begin
to negotiate this issue-- in a month from now-- in our-- in our-- bilateral meetings.*
NBC CORRESPONDENT: Another issue that will come up eventually, if-- if and when you
get past the Bagram detainee situation, will be immunity for U.S. soldiers. From our
understanding we've heard numbers from 14,000 to 20,000-- troops that the U.S. wants to
continue to stay in Afghanistan after the combat mission ends to train and assist-- Afghan forces.
Would you be willing to give U.S. forces immunity if they stay?*
PRESIDENT KARZAI: We can consider that question. I can go to the Afghan people and-argue for it. But before I do that the United States of America must make absolutely sure that
they respect Afghanistan's sovereignty. That they respect Afghanistan's laws. That no Afghan is
hurt or his or her rights violated by U.S. soldiers-- or by the behavior of the U.S. forces-- as a
whole.*
Therefore, it comes to the United States making sure that in letter and in practice it respects
Afghanistan's sovereignty. And when I say sovereignty it encompasses the whole concept of
sovereignty. Nothing less than that. And then we can favorably consider all aspects of the U.S.
request for a security agreement.*
NBC CORRESPONDENT: You've mentioned that Afghans have paid a very heavy price in the
war here--*
PRESIDENT KARZAI: Heavy price.*
NBC CORRESPONDENT: --in the last decade. You yourself have paid heavy prices. You've
lost loved ones. You've lost family-- --members. Has the U.S. presence in Afghanistan helped or
hindered Afghanistan in it becoming more secure?*
PRESIDENT KARZAI: The arrival of the-- of the American forces and the other forces
initially in 2001, did-- did help Afghanistan get liberated. That nobody can deny. And for it we
are grateful. The Afghan people joined hands with the international community to liberate
ourselves and to free this region and, by extension, the world from extremism and terrorism. And
that phase, the Afghan people remember and remember well. Subsequent to that, in the name of
the war on terror the Afghan people have paid the greatest price of any nation. That has not been
recognized. That has not been thanked either. This could have been different. So yes we have
paid a price and accordingly if your speaking in terms of security for the Afghan people, the
prisons of the United States and its allies have not brought security to the Afghan people, rather,
in instances it has made that security environment worse for Afghan people.
NBC CORRESPONDENT: There’s a lot of talk in America among the American public,
they’re also questioning the US presence here in Afghanistan. There have also been American
lives and international lives lost here on Afghan soil. What would you say to-- an American
family member who lost a loved one, whether it be a son or a daughter, a husband or a wife?
How would you say if their sacrifice was worth it or not?*
PRESIDENT KARZAI: Well, if they came to help Afghanistan only, help Afghanistan, then
the Afghan people are very grateful for the sacrifice that they have done. And we will respect
and remember that. But as the U.S. leaders say-- you hear it from President Obama, you hear it
from other leaders, that the United States is here to protect its own security, to fight Al –Qaeda,
to fight terrorism. And that they're not necessarily here for Afghanistan.* Then in that fight, the
Afghan people have paid a much greater price in-- in terms of blood. In terms of the use of our
territory. There-- the Afghan people also need to be thanked. While we are grateful for the
sacrifices of the United States-- soldiers, their-- men and women who have served in
Afghanistan, we also expect that Afghanistan's sacrifices will be recognized and-- called with
respect. So-- it depends on-- on the perspective-- of looking at it. If it's a war on terror, then we
have paid a heavy price. We have both paid a price. Afghans have paid a heavier price. But if it's
in support of Afghanistan, of course we are very grateful. We're thankful.*
NBC CORRESPONDENT: So would you say that any of the sacrifices have been worth it in
the last decade? As-- as you mentioned-- the Afghans have paid a very heavy price to-- --and
there's been a lot of-- --international blood also spilled on the soil. Were-- were any of these
sacrifices worth it, do you think?*
PRESIDENT KARZAI: It did bring to Afghanistan overall stability. It did take back
Afghanistan to its international-- presence. It did bring Afghanistan-- (UNINTEL) of economic
well being. Some people profited more. Some did much less. But it did not bring security to
Afghanistan. And, as I said earlier, in parts of the country it made it worse.*
NBC CORRESPONDENT: In the beginning of your presidency there was a very strong
relationship between Afghanistan and the United States. It seems that that relationship has fallen
apart. And in the past you have mentioned that your relationship with President Obama has been
tension-ridden. How would you describe your personal relationship with President Obama and
also Afghanistan's current relationship with the United States?*
PRESIDENT KARZAI: Well-- my relations with President Obama are not tension-ridden. It's
the relation as a whole between Afghanistan and the United States that are full of tensions. And
this tension did not begin with the government of-- President Obama. The-- the tensions began to
surface way back even-- while-- the administration before that. During President Bush's time.*
The tensions in our relations-- began in-- in-- to surface. We had tensions before that too, but
they did not surface. Tensions surfaced in 2007 after the bombardment of-- villages in-- in
Shindand in Herat where the Afghan government took a public stand where the United States did
not like it. So-- tensions began before that.*
The-- the relations between us and America has-- has evolved from one of us not knowing them
well and not knowing their ways and means of-- of-- conducting their policy in Afghanistan and
they not recognizing us well or not knowing us well. *
Now we have measured-- one another very well. We know how the United States works. We
know how-- it functions. We know what-- what means they use to-- to gain their objectives.*
So it's-- it's more businesslike today. It's not based on-- on-- on sentiments or-- or expectations.
It's based on-- us having interests, the United States having an interest and we are trying to
reconcile those interests where both are met.*
NBC CORRESPONDENT: Do you trust America's motives when it comes to Afghanistan?*
PRESIDENT KARZAI: Well, we-- we-- we-- we are-- once bitten, twice shy. We have begun- I-- I think the-- the best way to answer this question is that-- in international relations there isn't
really a question of trust. It's a question of-- interests. And-- to the extent that the United States
will respect Afghanistan's interests and-- allow it to flourish, we will have a relationship with
America. And the same applies to America. To the extent that we-- allow their interests to-- to-perform-- they will begin to have a relationship with us.*
NBC CORRESPONDENT: When we go to speak about the Taliban, where is Afghanistan-- in
the process of negotiating with the Taliban? Have the Taliban reached out to you or your
administration to say that they're willing to negotiate with your government?*
PRESIDENT KARZAI: We have contact with the Taliban. We have actually had in the past
few months quite a wider contact with the Taliban in Afghanistan, in Pakistan, and-- in other
countries. The recent visit of-- the Peace Council's chairman and-- the members of the council to
Pakistan has been-- a productive one by the standards of the past.*
Some Taliban-- were released at the request of the-- Afghan Peace Council. Subsequent to that,
we have had other engagement with Pakistan that has been productive. So, yes, both with the
Taliban and with Pakistan, as far as the peace process is concerned, things have improved.*
NBC CORRESPONDENT: You've made it very clear that you will not change the law. You
will not run again-- --for presidency in 2014.Where will you go? Will you stay in Afghanistan?
Do you feel safe enough-- --to stay in Afghanistan?*
PRESIDENT KARZAI: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I feel absolutely safe. I will be staying in
Afghanistan. This is my country. And-- will be very happy and-- I'll be-- very happy to be an expresident. (LAUGH)*
NBC CORRESPONDENT: Would you feel it's a good place for your children to grow up in?*
PRESIDENT KARZAI: It's a great place for my children to grow up. It's the best place for
them to grow up. Sure.*
NBC CORRESPONDENT: And speaking of your children, congratulations on your baby
daughter.*
PRESIDENT KARZAI: Yeah, she's seven now. Seven months. Seven months. Seven months-seven and a half. Seven and a half.*
NBC CORRESPONDENT: And-- she has a very strong name, as we mentioned, Malalai,
which has-- --very strong history with Afghanistan. And as we both know, Afghan women are
very strong and very-- intelligent, as you are married to one. I was raised by one. But
unfortunately the situation for women in Afghanistan as a whole is very dismal. Just last week a
15-year-old girl was beheaded for saying no to marriage. Another girl was shot going to school.*
I know that you've passed laws and you've made a constitution to bring equality, but
unfortunately-- many times throughout the country-- those laws aren't abided by. What's your
administration doing to help change the culture of perception when it comes to women in
Afghanistan? To help-- the Afghans as a whole to realize that women are worth something and
need to be a part of the-- --community--*
PRESIDENT KARZAI: --well, ma'am-- you're right. The situation for women in Afghanistan
has improved considerably. As a matter of fact just after this interview I'll have a meeting with a
large group of Afghan women who are here to meet with me from the provinces on the peace
process. You can-- you can-- you can join us in that meeting as well.*
Politically it has improved a lot for them. Socially and economically there is a lot more
opportunity for them. But-- the fundamentals-- as far as-- their-- empowerment is concerned
cannot change quickly-- because of lack of education. Especially among women and girls in the
countryside. In the villages.*
Therefore-- Afghanistan, while working hard to bring more progress, more-- more-- more safety,
more opportunity to women in Afghanistan, has also to be-- patient and-- to work hard to educate
more young ones for a better tomorrow. Violence is there against-- our women-- as, I should say,
is in every other society. I don't think Afghanistan is more violent in terms of-- its social-behavior than-- than-- societies-- around us or-- or generally.*
You hear more of violence because there is more awareness of it today because there's more
reporting of it today because there is more enforcement of the law against violence today. That
brings us up to-- to-- for us to notice. Not that violence has increased. No.*
NBC CORRESPONDENT: Moving on to corruption. Transparency International released their
index again yesterday. Afghanistan is tied with North Korea and Somalia as-- the most corrupt
states in the world. It's been an issue that's been talked about for the past several years.*
Exactly. Quite often. And you've said in the past that it's not just corruption within Afghanistan
that's the problem. It's corruption outside as well within the international community. And can
you explain what you mean by that?*
PRESIDENT KARZAI: There is no doubt that there is corruption in Afghanistan. There is no
doubt that there is more corruption than ever before in Afghanistan. But is this corruption the
making and the doing of us, the Afghans, or do others have a role in it? Corruption in
Afghanistan is-- in-- within the Afghan government more in the delivery of services to people
where the Afghan officials then, those who are corrupt, take bribes or-- or-- or charge.*
The bigger corruption is the corruption in contracts. The contracts are not issued by the Afghan
government. The contracts are issued by the international community, mainly by the United
States. Now whether-- this corruption in Afghanistan is an accident, a byproduct of the situation
in the past 10 years or is it perpetrated also on purpose is today my main question.*
I believe-- rather I should say, I've come to believe on evidence that part of the corruption is the
corruption that-- that naturally comes-- from-- the United States through contracts and through-through-- the corruption in both systems.*
But also that the other part of the corruption or the increasing talk and perception of corruption is
deliberate to render-- the Afghan government exploitable, to weaken it. This is something that I
have began to believe in firmly now-- after-- the experiences that I've gained in-- in-- in working
on this issue.*
So, yes, there is corruption. We are to blame for this corruption, but the international community
is to blame many times over for this corruption in Afghanistan. And I don't think, ma'am, that
corruption in Afghanistan will reduce in the manner that we want it and the manner that the
Afghan people want it, for as long as there is this current format of presence of the American
contracts or forces in Afghanistan and their other allies. So we have to wait for 2014 for the
withdrawal of international forces, for the reduction the-- in the-- in the-- in the-- in the amount
of contracts. Then you will see that Afghanistan will definitely be a lot less a corrupt government
and country.*
NBC CORRESPONDENT: So you do believe, though, it's the United States and the
international community who has perpetrated the corruption?--*
PRESIDENT KARZAI: All evidence--*
The private security firms. The biggest corrupting factor in this country. And the United States
almost threatened us when we-- when we-- raised the-- the question-- of the security firms and
when we-- when we-- asked that they be disbanded. They-- they-- they denied success to us for
five years till we intimidated a public action and then they came on board. Even then they tried
to retain them.*
The contracts that they issued-- they're issuing contracts to-- to the kins and-- and relatives of-of-- of the-- the high ups in the Afghan government. Politicians. Parliamentarians. To the
Afghans state institutions. Why? I have a letter from General Allen, just in the past month, that
speaks of a contract that they have been giving for the past 10 years to a member of parliament.*
And now they are complaining that the man is using that money to-- to cause them trouble. Who
gave that contract? It wasn't me. It wasn't the Afghan government. It was the U.S. military that
gave that contract to the parliamentarian. And there are-- hundreds of similar examples-- that we
have and that we have-- spoken about with the U.S. government where we have only received lip
service.*
NBC CORRESPONDENT: Would you say that the U.S. has been very lazy when it comes to
being accountable for the money that they've brought in here and then said-- are now pointing
the finger at you and your administration?*
They-- they have not been lazy. I think they have been-- quite-- quite-- what word should I use? I
think they knew what they were doing.*
NBC CORRESPONDENT: So it was intentional?*
PRESIDENT KARZAI: Yeah. Absolutely intentional.*
NBC CORRESPONDENT: Interesting. So-- just to stem a little bit further on this. Would you
say that part of the U.S. mission here in Afghanistan has been a financial mission rather than just
a security mission?*
PRESIDENT KARZAI: Well, no doubt there was a lot of money taken back to the United
States. The money that leaves-- Afghan airports in cash and billions, whose money is that? It
isn't Afghan money.*
NBC CORRESPONDENT: Also to touch on the Kabul Bank situation. The Afghan
government helped pay-- to have a survey done to see what happened with the money that went
missing. They're pointing the finger-- at your brother. They're also pointing the finger at the
brother of your first—Vice-president. If it was to come-- if they were to find out that they were
guilty, would you--*
PRESIDENT KARZAI: Absolutely.*
NBC CORRESPONDENT: --put them on the stand?*
PRESIDENT KARZAI: Absolutely. They-- they-- they're-- they've-- the cases are already with
the courts. There's no doubt that the Kabul Bank was-- was a corrupt exercise. Was-- was-- a
clear-- evident stealing of Afghan-- you know, depositors' money. Again, on this issue-- in a
meeting with-- General Petraeus and-- the then Deputy Ambassador who's now the U.S.
ambassador to Turkey-- our Minister of Finance Mr. Zakhilwal told him that there is an
encouragement to the-- outflow of money from this bank to-- countries outside-- by-- an official
of the United States embassy.*
And then they promised to investigate that. But they never came back to us on that. So-- while
Kabul Bank was-- was-- was-- was a clear case of stealing and corruption-- in which the Afghan
people suffered, in which the Afghan economy suffered-- we have had no cooperation at all-from the United States. Rather, the-- the Central Bank Governor, who showed me in writing and
in meetings, that the bank was okay, that the bank was good-- has been given sanctuary in
America. If they want to help Afghanistan fight corruption, they must cooperate. Bring the guilty
back to Afghanistan.*
NBC CORRESPONDENT: Has the United States said why they won't bring him back to
Afghanistan?*
PRESIDENT KARZAI: Well, they-- they-- they cite their laws. Which isn't true, in our view.
NBC CORRESPONDENT: We can't avoid the scandal that's going on in the U.S. right now
when it comes to two ISAF commanders that have been in Afghanistan. One being General
David Petraeus, the other being the current ISAF commander, General John Allen. What went
through your mind when you heard about this scandal? These are men that were here and are
here to run the NATO security mission. And this scandal has been embarrassing for them, but
what went through your mind to know that this may have gone on in your country?*
PRESIDENT KARZAI: Well, we-- when I heard of that I thought of the-- thousands and
thousands and thousands of trees that were cut in Afghanistan by these forces, of the tens of
thousands of-- the vine trees that were cut off, the orchards destroyed, of the Afghans that
suffered during those years.*
NBC CORRESPONDENT: And-- it must have angered you?*
PRESIDENT KARZAI: Oh, definitely. Those-- that destruction, definitely.*
NBC CORRESPONDENT: You've worked with many ISAF commanders throughout the
years. Is there one in particular that you feel worked well in Afghanistan, as opposed to others,
who actually wanted to help the Afghan people and that you felt you could work with?*
PRESIDENT KARZAI: There was-- General McChrystal that worked very well with us.
Before that there was-- I cannot-- you know-- bring his name back to my memory. A very nice
person-- who was the first U.S. Commander in Afghanistan. He then served again here in
Afghanistan, was also very, very good person with whom we had a good relationship who
actually saw the suffering of the Afghan people and who, in a meeting, in the room next to us
(CLEARS THROAT) told us that-- (CLEARS THROAT) that-- in-- in case of a civilian
casualty-- that he felt what the people-- told him. That he was a Catholic and that he knew-suffering-- as was taught him by God. That it was wrong. So there were-- there were some-some who worked very well here in Afghanistan.*
NBC CORRESPONDENT: General Petraeus has been put on a pedestal in America. He was-revered as the one who helped the war in Iraq and he was seen in America as well as a great
commander here in Afghanistan. But, as you mentioned, when you heard about the scandal you
thought about the destruction in Kandahar. Would you agree that he was a great commander for
Afghanistan?*
PRESIDENT KARZAI: Ma'am, it will be (CLEARS THROAT) unfair of me to speak of a
person who is no longer in office. I wouldn't do that.*
NBC CORRESPONDENT: You have been here from the start of the war-- and it sounds like
you'll be here till the end and beyond. When you look back at 2001 and 2002 and what you
envisioned for Afghanistan today, how has that changed or has that been accomplished? Is what
you envisioned what you see today?*
PRESIDENT KARZAI: What-- what I envisioned for Afghanistan-- a lot has been
accomplished. And that a lot that has been accomplished has been accomplished with the help of
the U.S. taxpayers' money or the help of the United States peoples'-- hard work and with the help
of our other-- you know, friends and-- and allies. Education. Better health. Better economy.
Roads. Airports. Afghanistan having a presence all over the international community. That has
been-- accomplished. Our democracy. Our-- free media. Part of it entirely our own doing. Part of
it with the help of the international community and the United States of America.*
But the greatest-- the greatest-- pain-- to me today and-- in the future will be the suffering of the
Afghan people in military operations-- in the name of the war on terror. The attacks of terrorism.
The attacks by the Taliban on our children and our women and our girls. And the-- attacks of-the U.S. military and NATO on our people in the name of the war on terror.*
Just yesterday, just day before yesterday, we had-- (BEEPING) the report I got today and
yesterday, of a girl who was shot in-- in Kapisa -- will-- we are trying to find out-- whether this
was the Taliban or just culprits. So there-- there are-- there's-- there are-- there's a price that
Afghans have paid. Heavy price.*
NBC CORRESPONDENT: Thank you so much. Thank you for your time. And thank you so
much for speaking-- --with NBC News.*
PRESIDENT KARZAI: You’re welcome.