Republic I, 336b-342e: An outline
Part 1: 336b1-338c1: Introduction: Thrasymachus interrupts; preliminary discussion of methodology;
how the discussion should continue
1a) 336b1 – 336d4: Thrasymachus interrupts the discussion and attacks Socrates’ methods
 336b1 Thrasymachus cannot restrain himself any longer as he listens to the conversation. He launches
himself upon the company like a wild beast. Socrates and Polemarchus are terrified. [N]
 336b9 Thrasymachus attacks the previous conduct of the argument
o You’ve been playing the fool and talking nonsense
o You should not always ask questions and pride yourself in providing criticism, if you wants to
know what justice is, Socrates
o It is easier to ask than to answer
o You tell us what justice is, Socrates, but don’t say that it is the advantageous, the beneficial or
the profitable
1b) 336d5- 337a2: Socrates is terrified and defends himself: I don’t know the answer
 336d5 Socrates is (mock) terrified, and almost speechless. [N] He asks for pity: they do want to find
justice, but don’t know how to.
o Do not be harsh on us, if we make a mistake, we do so unwillingly
o If we were looking for gold, we would not conduct our search badly and so ruin our chances of
finding it; justice is much more valuable and gold, so we are even more likely to search for that
seriously
o It is not that we don’t want to find justice – we are not able to
1c) 337a3 – 337c11: Thrasymachus accuses Socrates of feigning ignorance, and Socrates says that
Thrasymachus’ demands have made it difficult for him to answer
 337a3 Thrasymachus laughs bitterly [N]: this is Socrates’ usual dissimulation/pretend
ignorance/εἰρωνεια
 337a9 Socrates defends himself: Thrasymachus’ conditions are unfair
o Thrasymachus has acted unfairly by banning certain answers to the question. It is as if he asked
what 12 was, and said – but you can’t say its 2x6 or 6x2 or 3x4 or 4x3.
o What should a person do, if he thinks one of these is the answer, even though he has been
forbidden to give that answer.
o T: are the two cases similar then?
o Socrates: possibly. But the problem applies even if someone just thinks they are the same. And
it may be that he does want to give one of the answers Thrasymachus has forbidden – though
he’d need to think about it first
1d) 337d1 –338c1: Socrates and the others persuade Thrasymachus to say what he thinks
 337d1: Perhaps Thrasymachus should give an answer
o Thrasymachus: What if I produce a better answer? What should be your punishment
o Socrates: to learn
o Thrasymachus: no – to learn and to pay
o Socrates says that he doesn’t have the money, and Glaucon says that the others will contribute
o Thrasymachus : yes, so that Socrates can do his usual thing of asking but not answering
o Socrates: I don’t know what to say, and I have been forbidden to say the opinion that I do hold.
You should speak.
o Glaucon and others beg him to carry on. T was obviously keen for admiration. He makes a big
show of Socrates being his interlocutor (N)
 Parting shots
o T sums up the wisdom of Socrates: to learn from others. And he isn’t even grateful.
o Socrates: I am grateful. I offer not money but praise. As you’ll soon see when you have given
your speech.
Part 2: 338c2-341c4: Definition of justice stated and refined
2a) 338c2 – c4: Thrasymachus offers his definition of justice: ‘the advantage of the stronger’ (D1)
 Thrasymachus offers his definition of justice, as ‘the advantage of the stronger’ (or ‘Might is Right’)
(D1)
 Then asks why everyone is not praising him. Socrates says that he will – once he understands what he
means.
2b) 338c5 – 338d6: Socrates asks for clarification: The first argument against D1 (O1)
 Socrates: what do you mean by ‘stronger’?
 Do you mean that if Polydamas is stronger than us, and ox meat is beneficial for him, then this is
beneficial and just for the rest of us
 T accuses Socrates of understanding what he has said in the most damaging way. Socrates says: no, just
explain what you mean
2c) 338d7-339b7: Thrasymachus clarifies his definition: justice is the advantage of the established
government (D2)
 In each city, the government is the part that has power. Governments of all different sorts set up laws
for their own advantage. They then declare that adhering to the laws is just. So justice is the advantage
of the stronger, when this is understood to mean the established government.
 Socrates comments on the definition
o Now I understand, so we must find out whether you are right
o And note that you yourself have given a definition that uses the word ‘advantageous’ – you’ve
just added ‘of the stronger’. It’s not yet clear whether that makes a big difference or not.
2d) 339b8-339e9: Socrates argues against D2 (O2)
 Justice is to obey the laws set up by the rulers in cities
 The rulers in cities sometimes make mistakes. So they set up some laws to their advantage, some to
their disadvantage
 If justice involves obeying the laws, it will therefore sometimes be just to act against the rulers’ interest
– if they have mistakenly set up laws which are not in their interests
2e) 340a1- 340c6: Cleitophon and Polemarchus try to help Thrasymachus avoid Socrates’ objection
 Polemarchus: Socrates’ argument is very clear; he summarises it
 Cleitophon disagrees: Thrasymachus said that the advantage of the stronger is what the stronger thinks
is advantageous to himself (D3)
 Polemarchus says that this is not what Thrasymachus said; Socrates says that it doesn’t matter –
Thrasymachus can say this now
2f) 340c7 – 341a4: Thrasymachus rejects Cleitophon’s suggestion and goes back to D1
 I would not call a man ‘stronger’ when he was making a mistake
 Socrates is a slanderer if he thinks I meant this
 At the point he makes a mistake, a doctor is not a doctor, a calculator is not a calculator and so on
 In the precise sense, a ruler is not a ruler (and the same with other craftsmen) when he makes a mistake
(though we do say this, when we speak normally)
 The ruler defined in this strict sense always is the stronger. So when the ruler is understood in this
strict sense, it is just to do what is to the advantage of the stronger - as I said originally
2g) 341a5- 341c3: Methodological interlude
 Socrates: do you think I am a trickster? Do you think I asked you the question (about what ‘the
stronger’ means) to catch you out?
 Thrasymachus: I don’t think it, I know it. But you won’t succeed. I’ll spot it if you try to trick me, and
you won’t be able to overpower me by force in the argument
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Socrates: to avoid any further problems, answer this. Does Thrasymachus mean the ruler in the
ordinary or precise sense, in his definition.
Thrasymachus: I mean the ruler in the precise sense; work your tricks on this
Socrates: would I be foolish enough to shave a lion?
Thrasymachus: you tried, but you’re no good at it
Part 3: 341c4 – 342e11: Thrasymachus’ definition is refuted
(Socrates refutes the definition of justice as the advantage of the stronger = Second argument vs. D1
(O3))
3a) 341c4 - d10: The nature of crafts
 A doctor in the precise sense – is he a carer of sick people of a money maker? – a carer of sick people.
And the same with the other crafts
 There is something advantageous to each craftsman, and the crafts exists for seeking and providing
what is advantageous
3b) 341d11-e10: Is the advantage for each craft to be as perfect as possible?
 Is the advantage for each craft is to be as perfect as possible (i.e. to avoid defects)? (i.e. is this the
advantage it is aiming at)
o Example: The body is not self sufficient; it has needs; medicine has been invented to fulfil those
needs
3c) 342a1-c7: A craft looks after the advantage of its object
 But suppose the medical art is defective – does each craft need a further craft to look to its
advantage/defects? No: in fact this would lead to an infinitive regress. Or does it look after its own
deficiencies/look to its own advantage?
 No: Each art, speaking precisely, has no deficiency. It is not fitting for it to search for the advantage of
anything other than the thing of which it is an art. That is, it does not seek for its own advantage, it
seeks the advantage of its object.
3d) 342c8-e11: The arts work for the advantage of the things they rule over
 The arts have power over the things of which they are an art
 This means that each art considers and arranges the advantage of the thing it rules over – i.e. the
weaker, not the stronger
 And it is so with the other crafts, including the ruler.
 Conclusion: no-one in government, in so far as he is a ruler, considers what is advantageous to himself,
but what is advantageous to the person being ruled.