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THURSDAY, 10 MAY 2012
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PROCEEDINGS OF EXTENDED PUBLIC COMMITTEE – COMMITTEE ROOM
E249
____
Members of the Extended Public Committee met in Committee
Room E249 at 14:04.
House Chairperson Mr C T Frolick, as Chairperson, took the
Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence
for prayers or meditation.
APPROPRIATION BILL
Debate on Vote No 10 – National Treasury (State Security):
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Chairperson, Ministers and
Deputy Ministers present, hon members, distinguished
guests, members of our intelligence community, our
intelligence veterans, the Inspector-General for
Intelligence, the Public Protector, and fellow South
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Africans, in this year of the centenary of the ANC, let me
borrow from the words of one of our great leaders:
There is today among all races and men a general desire
for progress and for co-operation because co-operation
will facilitate and secure that progress ... It is
natural, therefore, that there should arise even within
and among us this striving, this self-conscious movement
and sighing for union. We are the last among all the
nations of the earth to discover the priceless jewel of
co-operation... Co-operation is the key and the watchword
which opens the door, the everlasting door which leads
into progress and all national success.
The South African Native Congress is the voice in the
wilderness bidding all the dark races of the subcontinent
to come together once or twice a year in order to review
the past and reject therein all those things which have
retarded progress, the things which poison the springs of
our national life and virtue, to label and distinguish
the sins of civilisation, and as members of one household
to talk and think loudly on our home problems and the
solution of them.
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These were the words of Pixley ka Seme on 24 October 1911,
as they were preparing the launch of the ANC.
Today’s review of the Budget of the State Security Agency
occurs once again when there are no discernible major
threats to our constitutional democracy. However, we have
to sharpen our vision on some of the challenges and threats
we confront, resolving obstacles to progress of our
national democratic revolution and engaging in a national
dialogue to provide workable solutions to these threats and
challenges we face as a young nation. Some of the threats
we face derive from factors such as the global economic
downturn, violent protest actions and illegal migration.
Others may arise from the lack of protective security
implementation in government, cybercrime, espionage and
subversion, corruption and illicit economy. We may not
close our eyes to the threats of food, water and energy
security.
On 10 April, His Excellency President Zuma, in his address
during the Intelligence Services Day commemoration,
reminded us that the -
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... intelligence and security services are key and
important components of a state. Intelligence services
work involves secret work which may, at face value,
appear to outsiders to be unrelated to government
objectives. We still need to raise awareness that
intelligence work is actually intended to advance
government work and programmes. It is not just smoke and
mirrors, spies and cameras as it is made out to be.
We, in the Department of State Security, are seized with
the work of supporting government to achieve the outcomes
to ensure that all South Africans are and feel safe and
that we create a better South Africa and contribute to a
better and safer Africa and the world. For this reason, the
Department of State Security will continue to ply its trade
guided by the theme Working Together to Build a Safer
Nation in a Secure World. This theme marks continuity with
change; continuity, because we allow centres of excellence
to soar to greater heights, working centres to strive for
being centres of excellence, and those areas that are not
rising to the challenge are changed with a view to infusing
a new focus, priorities and, if needs be, new leadership to
drive them.
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The processes that we had embarked upon in reviewing and
restructuring the intelligence architecture are meant to
ensure that we have professional and efficient state
security architecture. Commendable progress has been made,
since last year, with regard to the restructuring,
consolidation and establishment of a professional State
Security Agency, SSA. In our previous address, we committed
ourselves to finalising the integration of all our
operating systems. We are happy to report that the benefits
of an integrated State Security Agency are already visible
owing to the savings that are accruing from having a single
Asset Register, payroll, budget management, financial
accounting and procurement system.
We have entered the last phase of this restructuring
process and have commenced with the official migration of
our members into new structures. We have also appointed a
programme manager at a deputy director-general level to
ensure that this crucial project is finalised within our
timeframes. As part of stabilising the organisation, the
migration of members is expected to be concluded by
June 2012. This will be followed by the process of filling
vacancies through internal transfers and external
recruitment.
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Pursuant to our commitment made last year of codifying the
presidential proclamation of 2009 that created the State
Security Agency, we have prepared and tabled in Parliament
the General Intelligence Laws Amendment Bill. This
legislation is currently before the ad hoc committee of the
National Assembly, and we hope it will soon be finalised
into law governing the State Security Agency.
In the current financial year, we will focus on reviewing
the remuneration management system in order to complement
the changes in the organisational structures and motivate
the recruitment and retention of high calibre members,
whilst improving organisational effectiveness and the
sustainable use of financial resources.
Training remains the driving pillar of our restructuring
programme whose mainstay is to reskill, refocus, empower
and energise our members. Particular attention will be
placed on tradecraft, as well as language training. We will
establish a centre for foreign intelligence service
training whilst, on the other hand, our members will
continue to receive specialised training from our strategic
partners abroad.
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Our flagship cadet programme is being reviewed in order to
attract loyal, dedicated and disciplined members to the
agency. This year we have begun with the recruitment of
150 young South Africans to our college as part of a threeyear plan to inject 540 new recruits in our community.
Part of our objective as State Security is to be able to
conduct vetting for all government departments in a userfriendly and speedier manner. This is in line with our
counterintelligence mandate that ensures that we create
conditions of security that enable government and critical
state entities to do their work. In this respect, we have
prioritised the appointment of managers in the critical
areas of vetting and information communications and
technology, ICT, security. Last year, we committed
ourselves to reducing the backlog over the three-year
period.
As part of extending our vetting field unit beyond national
departments, consultations were undertaken by the State
Security Agency with provincial and national departments
regarding the establishment of vetting field units. To
date, 19 vetting field units were established at a number
of organs of state.
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In this financial year we will build on this progress and
prioritise the finalisation of the integrated SSA national
vetting strategy. The strategy is intended to improve
turnaround time in the vetting processes. The risk and
project-based approaches that we intend to build into the
strategy will go a long way in assisting with unnecessary
backlogs. Importantly, we seek to automate the vetting
process to make it more user-friendly and to cut down on
the turnaround times. This automation will begin the
introduction of a continuous rather than a periodic
approach to vetting. As part of our vetting mandate, we
have also prioritised the training of security managers
across government departments.
When delivering his state of the nation address, His
Excellency President Zuma called for the screening of all
supply chain management personnel in government. This is
one of the interventions aimed at curbing corruption. This
is critical, given government’s bold and visionary
infrastructure development programme. In this regard, we
have prioritised this project and remain ready and capable
to implement it.
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We continue with the project of integrating our
intelligence technology platforms in order to improve
service delivery and to reduce the turnaround time. The
storage capacity for the lawful intercepts was upgraded,
which has resulted in a faster and more efficient
monitoring system. This has resulted in the improvement of
our delivery of lawful intercepts to law enforcement
agencies. The product distribution network, together with
the Internet Protocol Interception Systems, will be
prioritised in this financial year.
We wish to express our appreciation to Judge Khumalo, our
former designated interception judge, who has retired, and
wish him well. We thank him for his contribution in
ensuring that we do our work in terms of the law. We also
welcome our new designated judge, Judge Yvonne Mokgoro. We
look forward to working with her in finalising the
outstanding matters such as the electronic direction
system, as well as distribution networks.
We are pleased to report that Cabinet approved the National
Cybersecurity Policy Framework in February 2012. This
policy will improve the co-ordination of government’s
response to the 21st century challenges of information
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security. The State Security Agency continues to coordinate the work of government in this regard, with the
hope of finalising a comprehensive policy by the end of
next year.
We had reported last year that we were in an advanced stage
of developing our national security strategy and our
national interest doctrine. The National Intelligence Coordinating Committee, Nicoc, task team has developed a
draft security strategy, following consultations with
critical role players in and outside the security
structures, to enrich the concept. This draft strategy is
to be further refined with the involvement of stakeholders,
including Parliament, before it is finalised into a
composite strategy.
This House will recall that, as part of our National
Security Strategy, we had identified dual-use technologies
that have both security and commercial applications as a
priority. An interdepartmental task team has been
established and is tasked to determine the status of dualuse technologies and to propose plans for control and
research and development.
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As part of the SADC region, our country continues to be
confronted by the problems of illegal migration and
organised transnational crime, including human smuggling.
We continue to work within the SADC framework, together
with our neighbours, to collectively address this global
challenge in our region. Our work on the formation of the
border management agency is on course. The business case
has been established and will soon be finalised by the
Cabinet committee. We hope to establish a fully fledged
border management agency by 2014.
The single biggest threat to our developmental agenda is
fraud and corruption. This is a cancer that steals from the
most vulnerable in our society and undermines good
governance and public confidence in the state. We continue
with our efforts of ensuring that the security cluster is
free of elements of corruption. We appreciate the
outstanding work done by our inspector-general, through
investigations into the allegations of malpractice and
corruption within the security agencies, and we will not
hesitate to act on her recommendations. We continue to
participate in the anticorruption task team which coordinates effective investigation and prosecution of
significant crimes including corruption.
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Our flagship programme of securing special events is on
course. I don’t have to remind you that we secured, as a
nation, the Cop 17 conference last year and, because of the
dignitaries who attended an important occasion on 8 January
in Mangaung, we also protected that event.
We recognise the attendant challenges of establishing a new
organisation. In this respect we are committing ourselves
to the creation of a conducive working environment for all
our members through establishing internal consultation
mechanisms. The task team was tasked by the Minister in
2008 to find ways of improving this consultation mechanism,
and its work is soon to be finalised.
Our efforts to ensure that there is closer co-operation
between veterans and the State Security Agency are ongoing.
We have completed the draft constitution for a state
security veterans association which will enable the sharing
of intelligence knowledge, experiences and expertise with
current members. In addition, it is envisaged that the
association will promote the history of heritage of the
State Security Agency. We have directed the agency to
continue with consultations with our veterans in order to
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establish the association by the end of this financial
year.
The gradual transformation of the world from a bipolar
arrangement into a global village, coupled with the
inherent competition for world resources and the desire by
nation states to claim their share of the world markets,
highlights some of the challenges in today’s complex world
affairs. President Zuma also reminded us that -
... the radical transformation occurring globally has
narrowed the distinction between foreign and domestic
threats. World borders are now softer than ever. Whether
it is transnational crime, terrorism or the global
political situation, the international security situation
requires all states to remain vigilant and to co-operate
in protecting respective national security interests and
their citizens.
The SADC region remains stable, except for the political
and security challenge in Madagascar. The implementation of
the SADC roadmap is held hostage by that regime’s failure
to enact amnesty legislation and the unconditional safe
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return of all political exiles, including Ravalomanana, to
the island.
The collapse of the Gaddafi government has led to
insecurity, increased terrorism and the proliferation of
arms in the Sahel and Maghreb regions. This has resulted in
an armed insurgence from the northern part of Mali and the
subsequent coup d’état that deposed President Amadou Touré
on 21 March 2012. The divisions in the ranks of the army
has not been able to stop the insurgence but resulted in an
attempted coup last week. The Economic Community of West
African States, Ecowas, is trying to intervene, but the
message from the African Union, AU, and the international
community is clear: Stop the insurgency and division of the
country and return to democratic processes and elections.
The people of Guinea-Bissau continue to face tragedy after
tragedy. January was marked by the demise of former
President Sanhá. This necessitated the speaker of the
national assembly, Mr Pereira, to act as interim president
and to prepare for national elections, which were held in
March 2012. The ruling party, under the leadership of Prime
Minister Carlos Gomes Junior, obtained 49% of the votes in
the first round and were poised to win the second round in
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April; yet on 12 April, the army once again staged a coup
d’état.
The fundamental problem in Guinea-Bissau is the lack of
retirement arrangements for the army. This has resulted in
a top-heavy army structure which thrives on political
interference and the drug trade. The AU will not tolerate
the military junta and has called for the immediate
reinstatement of the elected government and electoral
processes. We further call for the deployment of an
international force to assist Ecowas in the security sector
reforms and protection of the democratic processes. We urge
the international community to mobilise resources for these
reforms, including solidarity from the global citizens to
the masses of people of Guinea-Bissau.
We remain concerned with the tension and recent hostilities
between Sudan and South Sudan. We call on both parties to
cease all hostilities and return to negotiations under the
auspices of the AU High-Level Panel led by former President
Thabo Mbeki. War is not a solution, but dialogue is an
answer. As South Africa, we will continue to encourage both
parties in finding solutions, particularly in relation to
revenue-sharing mechanisms and border demarcation.
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Despite these hot spots in Africa, including political
challenges in Somalia, in the words of Seme:
The brighter day is arising upon Africa. Already I seem
to see her chains dissolved ... conflicts and strife are
rapidly disappearing before the fusing force of this
enlightened perception of the true intertribal relation,
which relation should subsist among a people with a
common destiny.
As Africans, we must deal decisively with Afro-pessimism
and dismiss the negative utterances of our detractors, like
the member there. The role of the AU Commission is central
to the rising of our continent. We must always ensure that
our decisions are taken democratically to reflect the views
of all states as equals, including ensuring that all our
member states are properly represented in the leadership
and staff of our union. For 49 years the Southern African
region of the AU has never been given the opportunity to
lead the organisation. This is contrary to the practice and
spirit of regional rotation and the equality amongst the
five regions of our continental body. In this respect, the
SADC is once again putting forward the candidature of
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Minister Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma to be the next Chair of the
AU Commission.
Mr G B D MCINTOSH: She is the wrong candidate. She will
never get it.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: She is the best candidate
that South Africa and the SADC have ever had. She has a
very good track record as a Minister of Foreign Affairs.
She is a capable woman. She is able to change things
wherever she is deployed. [Interjections.]
In June we will be attending the third international
meeting of high representatives supervising security
issues, which will take place in St Petersburg in Russia.
This meeting will focus on international information
security, including finalising the concept of the
convention on international information security and
considering issues of internal energy security, as well as
fighting piracy.
On the sidelines of this conference, unofficial
consultations of the heads of the security council of the
Brics member states will be held in preparation for the
Brics summit in South Africa in 2013. In striving for the
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highest attainable governance standards, we will continue
to work closely with the Office of the Inspector-General of
Intelligence, the Auditor-General and the Joint Standing
Committee on Intelligence, JSCI.
Chairperson, allow me to thank, firstly, my family and
friends for their constant support, particularly from the
princess there, Lindo, and Ntando – and happy birthday,
Ntando. I would also like to thank Judge Mokgoro who is
responsible for interception directions, the AuditorGeneral, Mr Terence Nombembe, the Inspector-General Adv
Radebe, members of the JSCI under the leadership of my
colleague Adv Burgess, veterans of our civilian services,
the chairperson of our staff council, Mr Xolile Mashukuca,
the Acting Director-General of the State Security Agency,
Mr Dennis Dlomo, and his senior management team, my
advisory team and my office staff.
I request this House to adopt the Vote on State Security. I
thank you. [Applause.]
Mr C V BURGESS: Chairperson, hon Minister of State
Security, hon Minister of Defence and Military Veterans,
hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers of the Security Cluster,
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the Inspector-General of Intelligence: Ambassador Adv
Radebe, the Public Protector, Acting Director-General of
the State Security Agency, Mr Dennis Dlomo, the Head of
Crime Intelligence, the Chief of Defence Intelligence,
members of the intelligence community, distinguished guests
and hon members ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon
memebers!
Mr C V BURGESS: My previous Budget Vote speeches in 2010
and 2011 focused on matters of national security and
patriotism. In 2010, because it was the year of the Soccer
World Cup, I particularly raised the issue of patriotism. A
patriot, I said, is a person who is a proud supporter or
defender of his or her country and its ways of life, a
loyalist and a national flag-waver.
At the time, I reminded the House, and will continue to do
so, that there were good people who work silently and
dutifully out of the public eye and who play a major role
in protecting the people of our country by the nature of
the work they do. I said then that these people never get
credit for the work they do. Yet they are the ones that are
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at the forefront of producing the products that warn us of
any threats to our national security and national
interests. We need to acknowledge their contribution. These
people make up our intelligence community. They are true
patriots of South Africa.
I acknowledge the work of our intelligence community,
Chairperson, but there are many more good people in our
country, who equally play a critical role in securing the
country and our people. These people understand the
importance of nation-building and the meaning of national
security as set out in section 198(a) of our Constitution.
Let me remind the hon members, this section reads:
National security must reflect the resolve of South
Africans, as individuals and as a nation, to live as
equals, to live in peace and harmony, to be free from
fear and want and to seek a better life.
These ideals bring about security and stability, ideals we
all demand and strive for; however, Chairperson, there are
a few disgruntled individuals. These people are rogues not whistle-blowers, not patriots, not concerned citizens,
but traitors. Chairperson, the simple dictionary meaning of
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traitor is “a person who betrays another, a cause, or any
trust, or a person who commits treason by betraying his or
her country”.
They undermine the constitutional order of our state that
good citizens uphold. They distort and leak classified and
sensitive information and have no regard for the
consequences of their actions. They have no regard whether
their actions compromise our national security or result in
the death of any of our intelligence agents. Instead, they
conceal themselves from detection because their agendas are
evil and hidden.
Chairperson, let me come to the point. The hon Minister of
Police, in his Budget Vote speech yesterday, dealt with the
matter of Crime Intelligence. He gave all the details
necessary concerning the Gen Mdluli matter. I share with
the Minister of Police his warning about relying on the
media for accuracy of information.
Chairperson, we have adopted a particular intelligence
oversight model in our country. The oversight structures
consist of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence,
the Office of the Inspector-General of Intelligence, the
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Auditor–General and the judge who deals with the
authorisation of interceptions and related matters. Each
entity has its function, which are set out in legislation.
The matters, which you read about, all fall within the
jurisdictional authority of one or more of the oversight
structures which I have just referred to. Why then would
people undermine the authority of these structures?
The activities of our intelligence entities are governed by
our Constitution and legislation. The Public Audit Act, Act
25 of 2004, provides for the auditing of confidential,
secret or classified accounts by the Auditor-General. Law
regulates the operation of special or secret accounts and
the utilisation of funds in these accounts. The oversight
bodies, the Inspector-General of Intelligence, the AuditorGeneral’s office and the Joint Standing Committee on
Intelligence, have the necessary oversight authority over
these accounts and the activities in these accounts. Why
then would people undermine the authority of these
structures?
The JSCI is a multiparty joint committee. All its members
have been vetted and have top-secret clearances. The Office
of the Inspector-General is independent, just like the
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Office of the Auditor-General and that of the Public
Protector.
Chairperson, as South Africans we must avoid becoming the
slaves of information peddlers, traitors and rogue agents.
To appreciate the dangers that await a nation when traitors
and rogue agents get to work, look at these cases: Robert
Philip Hanssen was born in 1944 and he became an FBI agent
in 1976. During his 25-year FBI career, he had access to a
broad range of highly sensitive counterintelligence and
military information. He spied for the former Soviet Union
and Russian Intelligence Services against the United
States.
Hanssen’s espionage spanned more than 20 years. He
compromised some of the United States’ most important
counterintelligence and military secrets, including the
identities of dozens of human sources, at least three of
whom were executed. Hanssen gave the KGB thousands of pages
of highly classified documents and dozens of computer disks
detailing United States strategies in the event of nuclear
war, major developments in military weapons technologies,
information on active espionage cases, and many other
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aspects of the United States Intelligence Community’s
Soviet counterintelligence programme.
Hanssen was arrested on February 2001. On 6 July 2001 he
pleaded guilty to 13 counts of espionage. He was sentenced
to life imprisonment without the possibility of parole.
Because he had entered into a plea agreement in which he
agreed to co-operate with the United States government and
submit to debriefings, he avoided the death sentence. His
activities have, nevertheless, been described by the United
States Department of Justice Commission for the Review of
FBI Security Programs as possibly the worst intelligence
disaster in the United States’ history.
Then there is the case of Aldrich Hazen Ames, who was a
Central Intelligence Agency counterintelligence officer and
analyst, who in 1994 was convicted of spying for the Soviet
Union and Russia. Ames could have faced the death penalty
for his crimes. However, he pleaded guilty and received a
sentence of life imprisonment. It is estimated that the
information Ames provided to the Soviets led to the
compromise of at least 100 United States intelligence
operations and to the execution of at least 10 United
States sources.
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There is one further character, namely Jonathan Pollard.
An HON MEMBER: What is the relevance of this?
[Interjections.]
Mr C V BURGESS: We will get there now ... [Interjections.]
As a civilian intelligence analyst in the United States, he
was sentenced to life imprisonment for one count of
espionage.
An HON MEMBER: Did you find that on Google or on Wikipedia?
An HON MEMBER: On WikiLeaks.
Mr C V BURGESS: The point I am making is that working in
the intelligence community is a serious and responsible
business.
There is no country in the world that tolerates the
behaviour of traitors, information peddlers and rogue
agents. In the three United States cases that I have
referred to, all the perpetrators avoided death sentences
by pleading guilty, and today remain imprisoned, without
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the prospect of parole. This indicates the seriousness with
which democratic countries take matters of intelligence.
I repeat that intelligence matters are serious. We must not
allow a few rogues and traitors to set the agenda of our
national security. I appeal to the House and the nation to
let the oversight structures do their work, and to wait for
the results ... [Interjections.] Then we will be informed
by legitimate processes on what the true situation is.
I think it is appropriate, at this stage, to acknowledge
the efforts of three of our top intelligence leaders who
have left the State Security Agency, SSA ...
[Interjections.] ... Ambassador Jeff Maqetuka, the former
Director-General of the SSA, Ambassador Mo Shaik, former
head of the foreign branch of the SSA, and Gibson Njenje,
the former head of the domestic branch of the SSA.
Unfortunately, they have all recently left the SSA and
their experience in the field of intelligence will be sadly
missed.
My colleagues, the hon members of the committee ...
[Interjections.] ... from the National Assembly will be
dealing with other matters. You will hear from them
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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concerning matters over which the committee has
jurisdiction, and they will also address the question of
defence intelligence.
At this stage I want to thank all those from the
intelligence community who have come here today to listen
to us, and we hope that the assurances that I have given
them from the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence,
JSCI, will be taken to heart, and that they will know that
the JSCI, together with its partners in the oversight
business, will be doing its work to make sure that we look
into matters that concern the nation. There is no need for
people to be nervous, scared and frantic. These things will
be dealt with and the truth will be made known. Thank you.
[Interjections.] [Applause.]
Mr D J STUBBE: Chairperson, Minister, hon members, members
of the services and people in the gallery, the past year
was marred by negative publicity in the intelligence
services, particularly in Crime Intelligence.
In November 2010 a so-called top document, setting out
allegations of a conspiracy against President Zuma,
surfaced. This triggered a spate of headlines in local and
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overseas newspapers, ranging from a murder investigation
against Gen Mdluli and the purchase of two vehicles with
taxpayers’ money. The latter led to the subsequent
compromise of a secret, covert operation. [Interjections.]
During March 2011 a warrant of arrest was issued against
Gen Mdluli. In September 2011 he was charged with
corruption and fraud, relating to the purchase of the two
vehicles from the witness protection fund, but in December
the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, withdrew both
cases.
The JSCI held various meetings with the top management of
Crime Intelligence, while numerous requests were made to
the Minister of Police to appear before the JSCI to share
information on the situation. He honoured us with one visit
after the situation had deteriorated to such an extent that
almost all the senior managers were removed from Crime
Intelligence. [Interjections.]
With regard to the State Security Agency, SSA ...
... die intelligensiedienste is ook nie van negatiewe
mediakommentaar gespaar nie. Die een oomblik vra Minister
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Cwele vir steun en aanvaarding vir die drie direkteursgeneraal in die intelligensiedienste, en die volgende
oomblik versuur die verhouding tussen die Minister en sy
drie top bestuurslede sodanig dat een na die ander die
diens verlaat.
Daar word gesê dat dit alles te make het met die
herstrukturering en die vorming van een entiteit, die SSA.
Wat nie gesê word nie, is dat die Minister, vanweë sy
uitgebreide buitelandse toere, uit voeling geraak het met
die lede Njenje, Maqetuka en Shaik. (Translation of
Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[... the intelligence services also did not escape the
negative media comments. One moment Minister Cwele asks for
support and acceptance for the three directors-general in
the intelligence services, and the next moment the
relationship between the Minister and his three top members
of management sours to such an extent that one after the
other leaves the services.
It is being said that it has everything to do with the
restructuring and the establishment of one entity, the SSA.
What is not mentioned is that the Minister, because of his
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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extensive travelling overseas, has lost touch with the
members Njenje, Maqetuka and Schaik.]
Your overseas commitments kept you so busy, Minister, that
various requests by the JSCI were turned down owing to your
unavailability. The JSCI had valid questions to put to you
regarding the exit of the three most senior personnel. We
as the JSCI only became aware of your appointment of the
acting director-general through newspaper reports.
Minister, die miskenning van die komitee is dalk vir u ’n
maklike uitweg, maar vir my is dit onaanvaarbaar.
[Minister, disregarding the committee may be an easy way
out for you, but to me it is unacceptable.]
The JSCI summoned the intelligence services to appear
before the committee after we read newspaper articles
relating to a fire in Durban. During our deliberations we
were assured that everything was under control, that it was
being investigated by the SAPS, and that a detailed report
would follow in due course. Well, sad to say, we have not
received any report to date.
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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Met verwysing na verlede jaar se begrotingsdebat wil ek die
volgende uitlig. [With reference to last year’s Budget
Speech, I would like to raise the following.]
With regard to national communications, Minister Cwele
said, and I quote:
We intend to conclude policy on electronic direction
systems as well as distribution networks in order to
improve service delivery, and to reduce the turnabout
time. We will do this after consultation with the JSCI.
Guess what? As yet, this has not happened. In relation to
fraud and corruption, Mr Cwele mentioned that the SSA,
together with the Financial Services Board, FSB, completed
the investigation relating to the Group Life Scheme into
the theft, fraud and possible corruption by the insurance
broker, negligence by the insurance company and
mismanagement by the service management.
The fraudsters have been referred to the police and the NPA
for investigation and prosecution, while the FSB withdrew
the licence of the insurance broker for a period of five
years. To date, there has been no progress report to the
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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JSCI, and the five years’ suspension of the broker has
almost expired.
The issue surrounding the building of an office block on
unstable dolomite and the subsequent wasteful expenditure
is also outstanding. When will you deal with this matter?
[Interjections.]
There is also the issue of the covert support unit. When
are you going to inform the JSCI or act on this matter?
Sir, I think we have reached a point where we must
seriously consider the functions of the JSCI and its role
in the oversight of you and your department.
There are four reasons why oversight of intelligence
services needs to be done: Firstly, the electorate holds
Parliament accountable for the work of all government
agencies funded by public money, and the entire
intelligence service falls under this mandate.
Secondly, due to the secrecy of information collected by
the services, there is always the potential of violating
individual human rights. In this regard the role of the
JSCI is of cardinal importance.
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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Thirdly, the information gathered could benefit or
compromise not only individuals, but also political parties
and other institutions if sinister forces within the
services abuse their power. There is a growing concern that
this is occurring.
Fourthly, individuals, organisations and institutions might
not be aware that they are the subjects of serious
investigations and, therefore, such actions should be
regulated and overseen.
Given the fact that the services are not subjected to the
same level of oversight as other government agencies, the
potential for malicious and illegal practices might exist,
and hence we need proper oversight and control. The role of
Parliament in overseeing the intelligence services is the
following: legislation, controlling of finances, and
overseeing policies and activities.
The JSCI as a statutory committee has oversight partners
such as the Inspector-General and the Auditor-General.
After all, the JSCI has the responsibility of reporting to
Parliament on the processes on or before 31 May annually,
as stipulated in the Intelligence Services Oversight Act.
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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However, this hardly ever happens due to various reasons.
This necessitates a complete overhaul of the oversight
model in order to comply with the Act and to give the
taxpayer the assurance that the intelligence services are
acting within their mandated responsibilities and are not
abusing their clandestine provisions.
As far as the General Intelligence Laws Amendment Bill is
concerned, during your briefing to the ad hoc committee you
mentioned that the amendments made to the Bill were of a
technical nature and no consultation with other government
agencies was needed.
Ingevolge die Grondwet, subartikel 209(2), moet die
President ’n vrou of ’n man aanstel as hoof van elke
intelligensiediens.
Artikel 210 handel oor bevoegdhede, funksies en monitering
en maak voorsiening vir: (a) die koördinering van alle
intelligensiedienste en (b) die burgerlike monitering van
die bedrywighede van dié dienste deur ’n inspekteur wat
deur die President as hoof van die Nasionale Uitvoerende
Gesag aangestel word, en wat goedgekeur is deur ’n besluit
van die Nasionale Vergadering, aangeneem met ’n
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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ondersteunende stem van minstens twee derdes van die lede
van die Nasionale Vergadering.
Die gemelde subartikel 210(a) en (b) verwys onderskeidelik
na die funksies van die Nasionale Intelligensiekoördineringskomitee, Nikok, en die inspekteur-generaal. In
die hersiening van die Wysigingswetsontwerp word Nikok
volkome onder die Minister se beheer geplaas en kom dit
daarop neer dat hy volkome kontrole het oor die aanstelling
van die hoof van Nikok, die produk, asook die begroting
vanuit die groter Staatsveiligheidsagentskap-begroting.
Die inspekteur-generaal wat veronderstel is om ’n
objektiewe mening te lug oor sy bevindings rakende oorsig
oor die intelligensiedienste, is ook volkome afhanklik van
die goedgunstige oorweging vir fondse vir sy begroting
vanuit die begroting van die Staatsveiligheidsagentskap.
Die bogenoemde twee gevalle is na my mening nie slegs
tegnies van aard nie, maar verg ’n grondwetlike
verandering.
Minister, u kan nooit volkome beheer neem oor entiteite wat
veronderstel is om onafhanklik te funksioneer nie. Solank
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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as wat hulle in u oë moet kyk vir hul begroting en
vergoeding, sal daar altyd ’n vraagteken hang oor die
uitslag van ondersoeke en bevindings en sal die vertroue
van die inwoners van Suid-Afrika nie verkry word nie. Ek
dank u. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs
follows.)
[In terms of the Constitution, subsection 209(2), the
President should appoint a female or male as head of each
intelligence service.
Section 210 deals with powers, functions and monitoring and
provides for: (a) the co-ordination of all intelligence
services and (b) the civilian monitoring of those
activities of those services by an inspector appointed by
the President, as head of the national executive, and
approved by a resolution adopted by the National Assembly
with a supporting vote of at least two thirds of its
members.
The said subsections 210(a) and (b) refer to the functions
of the National Intelligence Co-ordinating Committee,
Nicoc, and the Inspector-General, respectively. According
to the revision of the Amendment Bill Nicoc is placed
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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completely under the Minister’s control and it amounts to
his having total control over the appointment of the head
of Nicoc, the product, as well as the budget allocated from
the greater budget of the State Security Agency.
The Inspector-General, who is supposed to reflect
objectively on his findings regarding the Intelligence
Services, is also totally dependent on the sympathetic
consideration of funds for his budget from the budget of
the Agency for State Security.
In my opinion above-mentioned two cases are not only of a
technical nature, but require constitutional amendment.
Minister, you can never take total control of entities
which are supposed to function independently. As long as
they are dependant on you for their budget and
compensation, there will always be doubt about the result
of investigations and findings, and the trust of the
inhabitants of South Africa will not be gained. I thank
you. [Applause.]]
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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Mr N J J KOORNHOF: Chairperson, I am not a member of this
committee, so I do have the advantage of looking at the
intelligence industry from a distance and from the outside.
It is clear that our intelligence family is not in good
shape. Last year I said that when you are dealing with
intelligence, it is all about trust and that the abusive
state security institutions were a serious challenge to the
rule of law and the wellbeing of ordinary South Africans.
What is the state of affairs one year later? If one looks
at the media and various media reports over the past weeks,
and listen to commentary, it does not augur well for what
is coming and for the leadership role we should play in
Africa. One cannot ignore what is being said in the media
and over the radio. You cannot keep quiet all the time and
hope that it will go away.
We have seen, inter alia, that the Mail & Guardian sources
are claiming that a series of new appointments and
promotions is part of what they call the “Zumafication” of
intelligence structures, aimed at ensuring that the
President gets his second term in office.
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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The Presidential Protection Unit, they say, is fast
becoming a presidential spy unit with all the new recruits
coming from the intelligence family. The question to be
asked is: Will this presidential spy unit spy on the
President’s enemies in the run-up to the ANC conference?
Only time will tell. But this is nothing new. It happened
before.
Minister Tokyo Sexwale was clearly under the spotlight in
the past, when he fell out of favour with former President
Mbeki. Maybe that hon Minister can tell us whether this
deployment of intelligence agents into the presidential
bodyguard unit is a result of the fact that the President
does not trust the existing intelligence agencies. A sad
day, if that is the case. Yesterday it was reported that
documents taken in a robbery from hon Tokyo Sexwale’s
advocate’s house was, inter alia, his affidavit, wherein he
accused, and I quote, “the crime intelligence boss, Richard
Mdluli, of abusing state resources”.
There was recently a series of events that needs
clarification, otherwise the perception that something is
wrong becomes the truth. What were some of these events?
One was the dropping of fraud and murder charges against
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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you know who. He was moved yesterday. I want to ask why he
was not suspended. The problem is if you try to cut off a
dog’s tail, you do it once, not bit by bit.
We have seen shocking revelations of secret service slush
funds, the tapping of phones without the necessary
authority, the restructuring of Crime Intelligence, the
untimely letter by Richard Mdluli to the President offering
his assistance, the chopping and changing of senior
positions in the National Intelligence Agency. All of this
coincides with the tabling of the General Intelligence Laws
Amendment Bill, which will have the effect of centralising
control over the security and intelligence services,
exposing them even more to political abuse.
Business Day wrote in their editorial of 23 April, and I
quote:
It has become abundantly clear that the executive of
government is engaged in the systematic attempt to use
state’s security and intelligence structures to silence
opposition, both within and outside the ruling party.
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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It does not look healthy. Minister, it is up to you to put
the record straight. I have quoted what is in the public
domain, over the radio through commentators, in the media,
for everyone to read. I am not a part of your committee. I
have no WikiLeaks or other information. This was in the
public domain.
We should leave the spies out of politics. That is exactly
what the Matthews report and the White Paper on
Intelligence advocate. The White Paper was published a few
years ago, and I quote:
No intelligence organisation shall be allowed to carry
out any operations or activities that are intended to
undermine, promote or influence any South African
political party or organisation at the expense of
another, by means of any acts or by means of
disinformation.
This principle should be part of the new legislation.
It is us, Parliament, who must be the last custodian of
protecting and restoring the trust in state security. Let’s
not falter when we start our job as legislators.
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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Even the ANC-dominated parliamentary Portfolio Committee on
Police is concerned about developments. It was once again
clear in the debate on Police yesterday – a big division on
the other side of this House. Cosatu has called for a
judicial commission of inquiry into the allegations of
corruption.
So, hon Minister, what are you going to say to the hon
President when he asks you about all these negative reports
on the intelligence family in the public domain? I hope it
is not like the answer of the energetic owner of the hotel
in the movie called The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel. It is a
fairly chaotic destination, but every time guests go to the
front desk and complain, he replies, “Don’t worry,
everything will be all right at the end, and if it is not
all right, it is not the end.” I thank you. [Time expired.]
Prof C T MSIMANG: Hon Chair, the task of assuring a nation
that its territory and citizenry are safe is among the most
essential duties of government. Currently, in South Africa,
this is even more the case owing to external and internal
threats to peace and stability.
North of our borders a large chunk of the African continent
is in a state of volatility, particularly in Eastern and
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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Western Africa. Piracy in the Gulf of Somali is gathering
momentum. Reports are that, in their southward thrust,
pirates have reached the waters of our neighbours,
Mozambique. Another external threat comes with the demand
by China and other countries for the horns of our rhino.
The onslaught on these helpless beasts is carried out in
the most ruthless manner imaginable. Regrettably, even our
rangers who should rise to the protection of these prized
animals are colluding with foreign poachers to accelerate
their demise.
The IFP is also concerned about the porous borders, which
allow illegal entry of foreigners into our land. This
results in the unfair competition for jobs which are
primarily intended for local citizens. South African
citizens view this as unfair usurpation of their jobs and
are reacting in an offensive and violent way, which leads
to sporadic xenophobic attacks. More influx of these
immigrants can easily change the situation into a ticking
time bomb which could explode at any time.
Turning now to internal threats, the IFP is extremely
disturbed by media reports which reflect a state of
instability in intelligence entities. News of senior
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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directors resigning from intelligence services sends a
negative message that there is no harmony in these
entities. If this is the case, how can the citizenry feel
safe? Other disconcerting news articles are those fingering
senior generals in crime intelligence as the ones who are
perpetrating acts of corruption. If those persons that are
charged with stamping out corruption in the country are
themselves corrupt, there is no chance in hell that the war
against corruption will ever be won in South Africa.
Finally, one must turn to the thorny issue of reactions to
the Protection of State Information Bill. No matter how
much the ruling party is convinced that the Bill is in the
best interest of the nation, when everybody else is up in
arms against the Bill, then the ruling party should rethink
its position.
There are very few occasions in the history of our
Parliament since 1994 when all the opposition parties spoke
with one voice and voted against the ANC. It not only
happens now in Parliament but even outside Parliament,
where the majority of role players are dead against this
Bill. A strong argument can be made that this time around,
the ANC has served its own party interest rather than the
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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interest, of the majority which voted them into power.
However, in view of the critical mandate of the Department
of State Security and the challenges it is facing, the IFP
supports the Budget Vote. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr N B FIHLA: Hon Chair, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister
of the cluster, hon members, and the members of the
intelligence community, firstly, I just want to clear
something. Hon Koornhof is saying that he is in an
advantageous position of criticising the committee because
he is outside. My question is: how can he be in an
advantageous position when he is outside anything? The
person who is advantaged is the one who is inside. What you
are doing now is to swallow all the disinformation that you
get from the media, and you come and attack.
[Interjections.] Yes, that is full of disinformation.
[Interjections.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A Mlangeni): Order!
Mr N B FIHLA: Hon members, in 2009 the President of the
Republic of South Africa took a decision to review the
civilian intelligence architecture to enhance efficiency,
effectiveness and co-ordination. This was followed by
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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Presidential Proclamation No 59 of 2009 to bring together
the National Intelligence Agency, NIA, the SA Secret
Service, Sass, as well as the SA National Academy of
Intelligence, Sanai, the Electronic Communications
Security, Comsec, and the Office of Interception Centre,
IOC, to have a single entity called the State Security
Agency, SSA. Chairperson, the amalgamation of these
entities meant that a major restructuring process for the
SSA was to follow to allow the unbundling of the fragmented
structures of the national security service agencies and
bodies which affected the efficiency owing to overlapping
mandates, unnecessary turf battles and wasteful
duplications.
Chairperson, in his 2010 Budget Vote speech the Minister of
State Security, Dr S C Cwele, announced the progress on
restructuring by high-level appointments and centralising
command and control of the civilian intelligence community
under one director-general with the assistance of the heads
of domestic and foreign branches. He further announced the
appointment of Deputy Director-General for Corporate
Services, Prof Sandy Africa, to assist with the
undisruptive and swift reorganisation of state security
institutions. Further developments and appointments were
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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announced in the 2011 Budget Vote, which were noted by the
Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, JSCI.
Chairperson, since the 2011 Budget Vote a couple of changes
at the services, over and above the current restructuring,
took place. After the resignation of Prof Africa, the
director-general, as well as both heads of domestic and
foreign branches, resigned from the SSA. Although the
progress with the restructuring is noted, the pace at which
it is unfolding raises great concern insofar as the process
is causing instability amongst members of the community.
The delay in finalising the restructuring process is
creating negative effects and causing uncertainty and
affecting the morale of members. Moreover, members of the
community are still grappling with the transitional issues
such as roles of new leadership and terminology like
domestic and foreign branches, integration of IT systems
and the finalisation of the outstanding legislation that
will give effect to the new entity, SSA.
Chairperson, like everywhere else, restructuring causes
uneasiness and an element of panic within an organisation
as it affects employees’ job security. In most instances,
it leads to an industrial action by those affected.
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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However, subsection 21(1) of the Intelligence Services Act,
Act 65 of 2002, states that “no member of the intelligence
services or the academy may strike or induce or conspire
with any other member to strike”. We must appreciate the
environment in which the intelligence officers work. It is
labour intensive, with often a shortage of critical skills
needed to ensure efficient and effective response to
national security matters.
The last thing we need is a community that resort to
devious means, by selling sensitive and secret information
to those with ulterior motives, to vent their frustrations.
We do not want to see the leaking of information as we have
observed happening recently in the crime intelligence
environment. The Intelligence Services Council on Condition
of Service, ISC, must effectively perform its functions as
set out in section 22(3) of Act 65 of 2002. The staff
council must be informed about the restructuring process as
employees representing a structure established in terms of
Regulation 11 of Chapter XVI of the Intelligence Services
Regulations, 2003.
Therefore this process of restructuring the civilian
intelligence services must not be seen to be regressing.
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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Constant reassurance by the Minister that members’ jobs are
secure is important. Members should be updated timeously,
through the relevant communication channels, on the status
of the reorganisation.
In February 2011 the President, in his state of the nation
address, emphasised the need for job creation. We hope that
the restructuring in the intelligence services will not
lead to job losses, but that there will be room for job
creation in the process. I support the Budget Vote. Thank
you. [Applause.]
Mr N M KGANYAGO: Chairperson, hon Minister and hon members,
we all know that the primary purpose of the Department of
State Security is to protect the South African citizens. It
has a constitutional obligation to discharge its duties in
an impartial manner. Accordingly the South African citizens
expect it to serve all of them with dignity and respect.
Fortunately, the policy of segregation of the apartheid
regime, which never protected the security needs of the
majority of citizens in this country, is a thing of the
past. Today there is a fairly equitable distribution of the
benefits of state security services. We, the majority of
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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citizens, are no longer regarded as a threat to state
security. However, there are a number of issues that should
receive the department’s attention.
The UDM would like to request that the vetting of all
intelligence civilians receives the immediate and serious
attention of the Minister of State Security. The purpose of
this vetting is to build an efficient and effective
intelligence service, capable of ensuring peace and
security for all in South Africa.
We call on the Minister to carefully consider the public
outcry on the Protection of State Information Bill. As we
have said on many platforms before, the UDM is fully
cognisant of the need for a reasonable level of state
secrecy. However, we have made it clear, in many instances,
that we demand the inclusion of a public interest defence
clause in the Information Bill, because without it we run
the risk of undoing the gains of our political freedom. We
do not want to see this ending up like the floor-crossing
legislation.
In conclusion, we are concerned about the reports and
claims from various quarters that the resources of the
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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department are used to fight party-political battles. We
call on everyone in the department to work together to
build an impartial and nonpartisan state security
department. The UDM supports the Budget Vote. Thank you.
[Applause.]
Mrs S T WILLIAMS-DE BRUYN: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister,
hon Members of Parliament, our guests and friends, in this
centenary year of the true guardian of our people we,
again, call on all to work together with the ANC-led
government to build a safer nation in a secure world. We
continue to create effective, integrated and responsive
intelligence machinery that can serve the Constitution and
the government through the timeous provision of relevant,
credible and reliable intelligence.
I would like to remind the hon members that, prior to the
election of the democratic government, security policy was
formulated by a minority government. Its ability to detail
what was national interest was, therefore, flawed.
Moreover, since the minority government was faced with a
struggle for liberation, this issue dominated the question
of security and, consequently, the activities of the
statutory instruments that served it.
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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The apartheid regime has emphasised military threats and
the need for counteraction. Emphasis was placed, in the
main, on the ability of the state to secure its physical
survival, territorial integrity and independence, as well
as its ability to maintain law and order within its
boundaries. As a consequence, the classic function of
intelligence was the identification of military,
paramilitary threats or potential threats endangering these
core interests, as well as the evaluation of enemy
intentions and capabilities.
Our commitment to a constitutional democracy and the
changing objective conditions enjoin us to follow a more
comprehensive approach to which security is also endorsed
by organisations like the UN and the AU. This approach is
reflected in, among others, the Kampala Document of the OAU
of 19 May 1991, wherein a process known as the Conference
on Security, Stability, Development and Co-operation in
Africa was set in motion.
The international security agenda has shifted to the full
range of political, economic, military, social, religious,
technological, ethnic and ethical factors that shape
security issues around the world. But the main threat to
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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the wellbeing of individuals and the interest of nations
across the world do not primarily come from a neighbouring
army, but from other internal and external challenges, such
as economic collapse, overpopulation, mass migration,
ethnic rivalry, political oppression, torture, terrorism,
crime, disease, and so on. Hence security is defined less
in military terms and more in the broader sense of freedom
from the vulnerability of modern society.
Section 4 of the National Strategic Intelligence Act, Act
39 of 1994, establishes the National Intelligence Coordinating Committee, Nicoc, to consist of the co-ordinator
for intelligence, the director-general of the agency, the
director-general of the service, the chief of the
intelligence division of the National Defence Force, and
the head of the intelligence division of the SA Police
Service. This, in our view, is an important component which
should not be undermined.
According to Subsection 4(2) of the Act the functions of
the National Intelligence Co-ordinating Committee include,
inter alia, co-ordination of intelligence supplied by the
members of the national intelligence structures, and
interpretation of such intelligence for the use of the
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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state and the Cabinet for purposes of the detection and
identification of any threat or potential threat to the
national security of the Republic and the protection and
promotion of the national interests of the Republic.
Co-ordination of intelligence in our view is extremely
critical to protect national interests and secure our
transformation agenda. In this regard, let me take a leaf
from the book of the President at the 2009 Intelligence
Service Day, when he said:
To realise progress on the five priorities, we need the
state security services to develop a sustainable and
measurable strategy to protect and support the government
programmes from disruption and ensure an enduring
security. The vehicle towards this is a national security
strategy, which must define clear roles for each of the
security agencies in pursuing these priorities. The
national security strategy must emphasise co-operation
and integration of systems amongst the departments and
components of government in the fight against crime and
corruption.
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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I think it would be remiss of our hon members not to ask
the vexed question: Why so much unrest in our communities?
Why is it that our government is disrupted from realising
the priorities which the President alluded to? Why is it
that corruption and other crimes of greed and avarice
threaten to erode our democratic gains and foment social
dissent and unrest within our people?
It is quite amazing to note that the nub of this issue was
what concerned the President in 2009 when he continued:
One issue that must be prioritised is to look into the
violence that has accompanied protests in communities.
The right to peaceful and democratic protest is
recognised by the Constitution and must be defended by
our security agencies and all of us. However, what
worries us is the element of violence and destruction of
property. We need to know why our people would choose to
be violent instead of pursuing the rightful demands in a
peaceful manner.
Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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Ms S C N SITHOLE: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Deputy
Ministers present, hon members of the House, I am a
deployee of the ANC. The reason for me to speak today is to
support this budget, so I do support this Budget Vote. I
want to tell the hon director-general that I am looking at
the money of the state. I am not interested in the party
affiliation of the person. Everybody, whether you are DA or
ANC, must account. That is what I would like to see.
According to section 55 and 114 of the Constitution of the
Republic of South Africa, Members of Parliament are
expected to hold all state organs to account. We expect
your department to assist us by conducting its business in
line with the Constitution, the Public Finance Management
Act, PFMA, and all the laws governing intelligence and
secret services in our land. The PFMA allows you to manage
it, but it also holds you to account. We expect timeous
reporting. We expect to receive quarterly reports on time.
Late preparation of financial statements is not helpful; it
is a waste of time. Financial statements are management
tools. Financial statements prepared on time assist you,
hon director-general, to manage your department properly.
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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The committee will track the spending of these resources
that we are passing today. We are going to expect you to
live up to your undertaking yesterday at Africa House. We
are giving you this budget, because we became convinced
that you have got a strategic plan and that you are going
to deploy the resources in accordance with that strategic
plan and in compliance with all the financial management
laws of our country.
It is necessary that you make sure that the chief financial
officer is a person who understands finances and is
qualified to do the work. It is important that the chief
financial officer insures that internal controls are in
place; that risk management plans are in place and that
supply chain management and procurement strategies are as
prescribed by the PFMA and all intelligence laws of our
country. We pass this budget, director-general, believing
that you will carefully go through all previous years’
committee recommendations, Auditor-General’s findings and
recommendations, and that you will correct and insure that
there is no recurrence of those mistakes.
We believe that you will co-operate with the AuditorGeneral and give all required information to allow the
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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auditing of your financial statements, and that we will get
quarterly reports on time for us to do our oversight work.
Stick to the legislation; those are the tools for
accountability. Do not govern the country using newspaper
reports, because they may not be accurate.
I remember very well, towards the World Cup, the many
commentators and newspaper reports saying stadiums would
not be built, and there would be no security. But the
security intelligence community kept their word and they
delivered. The world came and saw the loveliness of South
Africa, and that is why tourism today is blossoming in
South Africa. Well done, intelligence community.
We come from a past where security police were used to
terrorise the peoples of South Africa. We come from a past
where newspapers never used to report. Those that did were
banned. Journalists were thrown out of windows, sent into
exile, and all that. [Interjections.] We come from that
past, but today we have got an intelligence service that
truly protects the people of South Africa. What we want,
however, is that the monies of the state must be used in
accordance with predetermined objectives, which we have
gone through.
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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I would like to speak to the hon Koornhof. I do not know
whether you want to be a member of the ANC, or not. You are
so interested in Mangaung. Mangaung belongs to me, to the
branches of the ANC. [Interjections.] You will not be
there. I will be there. We are going to vote Jacob Zuma
back into office. I thank you.
Mr T W COETZEE: Mr Chairman, the hon Minister of State
Security, other Ministers, Deputy Ministers present, hon
Chairperson of the Joint Standing Committee on
Intelligence, JSCI, ladies and gentlemen, distinguished
guests, and my beloved wife, Magda, in the public gallery,
whom I would like to acknowledge for her presence, support
and love, the State Security budget is only quoted as an
amount within the National Treasury Budget Vote No 10, due
to security reasons.
To comment on these figures is very difficult as the
utilisation of the budget is classified, and we, as members
of the JSCI, have taken an oath of secrecy. This is the
reason I can only debate on matters which are in the public
domain, and I want to refer you to the Rapport of 8 April:
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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’n Veiligheidsmuur vir sy huis is moontlik die rede
waarom mnr Nathi Mthethwa, polisieminister, so vasbeslote
is om die Valke se ondersoek na die misdaadintelligensieeenheid se noodfonds in die kiem te smoor. City Press,
susterskoerant van Rapport, berig die Valke was besig met
’n ondersoek na verdoemende bewerings dat bykans R200 000
se verbeterings aan Mthethwa se huis gespandeer is uit
die noodfonds.
Die Rapport berig verder oor ’n luukse motor waarmee die
Minister van Polisie rondgery het, wat ook uit die geheime
fonds befonds is. Dit gaan nie daaroor of die Minister van
Polisie bewus was van waar die fondse vandaan kom nie. Dit
gaan oor die beginsel dat geld uit die geheime fonds, wat
wanbestuur is, geneem is, en daar moet verantwoording
gedoen word aan die Gesamentlike Staande Komitee oor
Intelligensie in dié verband. (Translation of Afrikaans
paragraph follows.)
[Rapport further reports about a luxury car the Minister of
Police was driving that was also funded from this secret
fund. It is not about whether the Minister of Police was
aware where the funds came from. It is about the principle
that money was taken from the secret fund, that had been
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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mismanaged, and account should be given to the Joint
Standing Committee on Intelligence in this regard.]
The Minister of State Security said in his budget speech of
1 July 2009, “I will unfailingly ensure that the power and
the public funds entrusted to us are used responsibly.”
In the light of the above and the seriousness of the
matter, and because if fraud can happen in one intelligence
agency, it can also happen in the others, I therefore
challenge the Minister to call on the Auditor-General to
table a full report to the JSCI of the last five years on
the spending of all secret funds within the intelligence
domain, within three weeks from today.
With reference to this instance, I would like to refer the
hon Minister to paragraph 3(a)(iv) of the Intelligence
Services Oversight Act, Act 40 of 1994, as amended, and to
what the hon Burgess, Chairperson of the JSCI, said during
his budget speech on 1 July 2009:
The JSCI has an oversight function over the new Minister
of State Security and the agencies for which the hon
Minister is responsible. The JSCI has an oversight over
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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Crime Intelligence, Defence Intelligence, which do not,
however, fall under the jurisdiction of the Minister.
On the above-mentioned date in 2009, I said:
The Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence is a
creation of the elected representatives of the people to
ensure that our Intelligence Service can enjoy the trust
of all South Africans.
Besef u, Minister, wat die wanbestuur van geheime fondse
aan die gemeenskap doen, en veral aan die
rekonsiliasieproses van ons land? Ek glo nie dit kan gemeet
word in sekere terme nie.
Die keuring van personeel binne en buite die
intelligensiedomein is nog ’n groot bedreiging vir die land
se veiligheid. Die agb Minister het op 1 Julie 2009 gesê:
(Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Minister, do you realise what the mismanagement of secret
funds does to the community, and especially to the
reconciliation process of our country? I don’t think it can
be measured in certain terms.
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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The vetting of staff inside and outside the intelligence
domain is another big threat to the country’s safety. The
hon Minister said on 1 July 2009:]
We will continue to ensure the full implementation of all
elements of our vetting strategy, which contributes to
enabling government to expose and root out criminals from
the Public Service. In particular, we will ensure that
all those seeking employment are subject to appropriate
screening prior to entry.
That is questionable, Minister. I quote further:
We shall conduct regular screening of those entrusted
with state resources.
On 2 June 2011 the Minister said, “We also seek to deal
with the backlog of vetting, which is a critical aspect of
the counter-intelligence mandate in the next three years.”
We have been hearing this for the last four years. It is
clear that no service delivery, as far as vetting is
concerned, is taking place within the department. My
statement is confirmed in that the Head of Crime
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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Intelligence, Gen Richard Mdluli, had almost employed all
his family in his department. The City Press of 15 April
stated:
Spy boss keeps it in the family. Several of Mdluli’s
relatives were appointed to police cybercrime unit.
I have mentioned how important that division is.
Die agb Minister dryf die Wetsontwerp op die Beskerming van
Staatsinligting met soveel passie, maar
intelligensiepersoneel sit in die diens sonder dat hulle
behoorlik gekeur is. Hoe wil die Minister geloofwaardigheid
behou as ongekeurde personeel in alle range
geklassifiseerde inligting moet beskerm? Hoe wil die
Minister dit doen? (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph
follows.)
[The hon Minister is driving the Protection of State
Information Bill with such passion, but intelligence staff
is employed in the service without being thoroughly vetted.
How will the Minister retain credibility if staff not
vetted in all the ranks have to protect classified
information? How will the Minister achieve this?]
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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The hon Minister must come and explain, in detail, the real
reasons why the three persons in the State Security
Agency’s top management, namely the Director-General of the
SSA, and the head of the domestic and the external
component, Mr Njenje and Ambassador Mo Shaik respectively
have left the intelligence services. He must not come and
try to justify the reasons why they should have left. We
want the reasons why they have left.
I have questioned the Minister’s commitment of undertaking
to complete the restructuring of the Department of State
Security into the SSA swiftly and without disruption. His
relationship with the JSCI is also an ongoing concern. Last
year, when I made the statement that his relationship with
the JSCI is a worrying factor, he denied it. However,
Minister, when last did you attend a meeting of the JSCI? I
will tell you, sir – last year, in November ...
[Interjections.] ... when you committed yourself to
workshop the General Intelligence Laws Amendment Bill with
the JSCI. To date, this has not yet taken place.
As I said earlier, the JSCI also has oversight functions
over you, Minister, but we never see you. When we do, you
only inform us on matters, like you have done with the
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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presidential proclamation of the name change and
restructuring of your department. The JSCI is supposed to
be included in all processes and not just to be informed.
There are two other matters of concern, which have also
been touched on this afternoon. The Minister has committed
himself to report back on an investigation into the
insurance matter, and also on the very important, worrying
matter of the Border Management Agency. What is going on on
our borders?
I want to conclude by asking the Minister of State Security
if he believes that he is still committed to the task of
responsibility with regard to the Department of State
Security, because I do not believe so. [Time expired.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Can I ask the
previous speaker to switch off the microphone? Thank you.
You may continue, hon member.
Mr J J MAAKE: Chairperson, Ministers and Deputy Ministers,
members of the intelligence community, and hon members, it
is a general norm that a defence force in any country of
the world represents or rather has, as its purpose, the
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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defence of the ruling class. It is not for me to say who
the ruling class is in South Africa. I can but talk with
authority of the ruling party in South Africa, which is the
ANC, my party.
We in South Africa are in a very unique situation in that
our Defence Force is without doubt not the defence force of
the ruling party, but of the country’s citizens as a whole,
without any discrimination. The opposition definitely
agrees with me in this regard.
Having said the above, let us now look at the Defence
Intelligence within the SA National Defence Force. The
Defence Intelligence, DI, draws its mandate from the
Defence Act, Act 42 of 2002, section 34(a) and (b) read in
conjunction with the National Strategic Intelligence Act,
Act 39 of 1994, section 4. Defence Intelligence must
gather, correlate and use strategic intelligence for the
purpose of ensuring national security, determining and
formulating of defence strategy and policy, as well as
assisting in the co-ordination of foreign military
assistance.
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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It must use operational and counterintelligence for
purposes of assisting in the execution of operations in
line with the defence strategy. It must conduct and
institute counterintelligence measures within the Ministry
of Defence and the Armaments Development and Production
Corporation, for example by supporting naval security,
supporting deployments at the border line, etc.
The core objective of Defence Intelligence is to provide
intelligence, counterintelligence and a defence foreign
relations capability and service. The other objective is to
ultimately position itself to supply comprehensive cuttingedge defence intelligence at both strategic and operational
levels, to afford decision-makers at all levels of command
the fullest possible understanding of threats and
opportunities.
South Africa is a unique country. It is unique, because,
and only because, it is governed by a mature party, a party
that has distinguished itself in the war for liberation, a
movement that is known for its diplomacy, an organisation
that is respected the world over for its foresight and its
respect for democracy and human rights, and an organisation
that is the oldest in Africa.
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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Whilst the ANC has been fighting for democracy since its
inception, the opposition parties only started fighting for
democracy in 1994. [Applause.] Let them prove me wrong. Was
it because they were stupid that they couldn’t see that
there were some people, the majority of the indigenous
population, who were denied democracy, or were they happy
about the status quo? It therefore means that, if it were
not for the relentless fight by the ANC, they would be
still in the dark about democracy. [Applause.] The ANC
liberated them from this stupidity. [Applause.] Are they,
therefore, not naive and hypocritical to try and teach us
about democracy and human rights – we, who have been on the
receiving side of their past policies?
I think they need to be reminded. I want to go to the
furthest extreme of trying to remind them, even though it
might border on absurdity. One could suggest that, one day,
for instance on the Day of Reconciliation – which,
coincidentally, is my birthday – in order for us to never,
ever forget, we may need to relive what used to happen.
That is, we could theatrically call each other by the names
we used to. [Laughter.] We could have separate amenities,
hospitals and restaurants. We could move out of this
Parliament building and leave them alone, and maybe attack
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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Mozambique. [Laughter.] Maybe the horror of what used to
happen might wake some of them up.
Although absurd in the extreme, this might teach us the
heavy load of responsibility that we all have to bear in
order to make South Africa work, because it tends to be the
previously oppressed who are expected to make
reconciliation work.
Whilst previously the function of Defence Intelligence was
to plan the harassment, maiming and killing of our brothers
and sisters in Africa and the world over, the whole of its
vision, mission and objectives has changed and is now the
direct opposite of what it was before. Defence Intelligence
is used for defensive purposes. It is used for humanitarian
purposes. It is used to gather intelligence information for
the sake of defence policy formulation.
One must know how other countries are armed in order to
know the design, quantity and quality that one’s army must
develop or maintain. An army doesn’t have sophisticated
armoury in order to attack other countries, but as a
deterrent. That is, if a country wants to attack you, they
must think twice.
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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There is now oversight over what happens in our Defence
Intelligence established according to the Constitution, the
supreme law of the land. Our Defence Force has never
attacked any neighbouring country. That one time they
entered Lesotho, we had an Acting President who was not an
ANC member! [Laughter.] Not that there was anything wrong
with that; I just wanted everyone to note that. [Laughter.]
With limited financial resources Defence Intelligence still
manages to execute an effective plan such as providing
representation in countries where the SA National Defence
Force, SANDF, needs to advance its interests through its
defence attaché. The DI forms the front line in defence
diplomacy efforts. The DI is represented in countries
across the Southern African Development Community, SADC,
Africa, the Middle East and the rest of the world.
I always stand here and teach the opposition, especially
the DA. If I could give you an example ... your marketing
strategy is like that of a person who advertises and sells
dog food. During the very first month they make millions
but, during the second month, nobody buys their dog food
and the company goes under. The problem is that they didn’t
ask the dogs! The dogs didn’t like the food! [Applause.]
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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And if you do that, you will never sustain whatever you
say.
I like what the hon Msimang said. He simply said what is
written in the papers. If we were to take what is in the
papers, we would take this and that decisions. What hon
Koornhof of Cope said is what always surprises me. They
always talk about our voters as the ANC. They are saying we
mislead our voters. Why don’t they talk about their voters
and leave ours alone? The ANC supports the Budget Vote.
[Time expired.] [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: House Chairperson, let me
thank all the members for their inputs and their support on
this Budget Vote.
When I was saying happy birthday to intando yeningi
[democracy], I forgot to say happy birthday to Minister
Lindiwe Sisulu, who also worked previously to lead this
organisation. Happy birthday, Lindi. She did apologise and
we will see her later when we meet at the afterparty.
[Laughter.]
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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Let me also thank hon Burgess, the Chairperson of the
Portfolio Committee on State Security, for the very kind
words to our officers – very hardworking and loyal officers
– because it is very rare that they are actually recognised
publicly for the work they are committed to in securing our
nation. Once again, thank you very much. [Applause.] I have
noted your concern about what you call traitors and people
who are not patriots, but I know all the members here are
very patriotic - that is why they are called “honourable”.
Honestly, I hope that through your actions and missions,
you will not condone the activity which promotes traitors,
including your consideration of the legislation.
The hon members of the DA, Mr D J Stubbe, is very well
versed in matters pertaining to intelligence. We have noted
his input and concern about my busy international schedule
which have, at times, caused me to be absent in some
meetings of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence,
JSCI, but I am present at most of them where I am invited.
But let me just stress to my colleagues that my absence
basically is due to work we are doing in Africa, and it is
not a holiday. It is hard work, which is part of the
programme of action of this government to ensure a better
Africa and a safer world. It is part of that work where we
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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ensure that we reduce the conflicts, because we know that
when there are conflicts in Africa, we will get an influx
into our country as a result. So, we have to prevent those
conflicts and contribute to the creation of a safer Africa.
I now come to the issue of progress reports in the
committee and, in particular, the fire which happened in
Durban. I understand that the director-general did commit
to the JSCI that they will come back to this matter within
a month, including those break-ins which happened in some
of our offices – it was also raised by other members of the
committee. But, in short, regarding the fire in Durban, we
have the preliminary report, and we also reported to the
JSCI the investigations conducted by the fire department of
Durban Metro and the police. All indications are that it
was an electrical fault. There was no foul play in this
activity, but I will send a team from the department to
give a comprehensive report to the JSCI.
He also reminded us that we reported previously on the
investigation we were doing in some of the agencies,
particularly the Group Life Scheme. If you remember, we
were tasked to do an investigation into the extent of the
participation of our members in that corruption scheme. The
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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former director-general, Ambassador M J Maqetuka, led that
investigation and could not find any substantial things
that warrant action beyond just warnings to our members.
The crux of the matter is that the National Prosecuting
Authority, NPA, and the police are continuing those
investigations. I don’t think we should therefore interfere
with the process of investigation and say, let them rush to
court because these fraud cases are quite complicated,
people take time to plan them. When you go to court, you
must produce evidence, and proper evidence, so that you can
have a successful prosecution.
I really sympathise with the hon Koornhof; I know him as a
very kind and honourable member. I understand fully that he
relies mainly on the media, because he does not participate
in the oversight committee. I will also say, as an
intelligence community, we don’t rely on the media, we rely
on facts and true intelligence – verified intelligence when taking actions, because most of the things which are
reported in the media are far from any truth on what the
state of affairs in our own environment is. But let me also
remind the hon member - because it is fair to raise such
concerns – that there is sympathy for some members who are
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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not participating in the JSCI, Cope is allowed to
participate in the JSCI. The real problem is that Cope is
still fighting. Mr Shilowa was appointed as a member and
they have not been able to replace Shilowa in the JSCI. So,
if you want the intelligence community to go and assist to
resolve this matter, unfortunately we can’t because we
don’t participate in such political parties’ political
activities.
A number of hon members have raised matters pertaining to
the legislation which is before the committees of
Parliament, the first one being the Protection of State
Information Bill, not the secrecy bill; it is the
Protection of State Information Bill which is currently
before the NCOP. Some members are still crying about the
public interest defence clause. They are just saying this
because the opposition is saying so, despite the majority
of South Africans and an overwhelming number of members of
the National Assembly disagreeing with them on this matter.
I would really like to get into this, because the court is
in Parliament and not in the Ministry anymore. We have
explained our position as the department and the Ministry
and we still say that we are not opposing any amendments
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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that will improve the effectiveness and the
constitutionality of the Bill. But we are totally against
any measures that will make the Bill unworkable and useless
and which will allow the work of foreign spies and
espionage peddlers to thrive in South Africa. We remain
quite open to any progressive suggestions to improve these
other aspects of the Bill.
I won’t comment on the General Intelligence Laws Amendment
Bill; others really are playing very cheap party-political
games on this matter. My understanding of this matter is
under the National Assembly. We have explained ourselves on
several occasions to the committee and now the committee is
in the process of considering the Bill. If you want us to
go back to the committee and explain further, we will do so
as well as debate the Bill in the House again.
A number of members have touched on the fact that we should
ensure that our intelligence officers are not partisan and
that we don’t use the intelligence for party-political
processes. I fully agree with you in this regard. To
illustrate this fact, I would like to quote for the members
what President Zuma said exactly one month ago, when he was
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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addressing all these intelligence officers in our
headquarters. I quote:
The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa enjoins
the state security agencies to assist government efforts
in ensuring that South Africans as individuals and as a
nation live as equals in peace and harmony and are free
from fear and want ...
This is as Mr Burgess has quoted.
The President continued to say:
Your task is therefore a critical one as it is not about
serving narrow personal or partisan interests, but those
of the entire nation. The Constitution of the Republic is
also very explicit with regards to the mandate of our
security services.
It states that the security services must act, teach and
require their members to act in accordance with the
Constitution and the law, including customary
international law and international agreements binding on
the Republic. The Constitution also states explicitly
EPD 10 MAY 2012
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that no member of any security service may obey a
manifestly illegal order.
In addition, the security services are barred from
undertaking any work that may prejudice a legitimate
political party or which promotes, in a partisan manner,
any interest of a political party.
Our progressive Constitution also directs that there be
oversight to ensure transparency and accountability.
Multi-party parliamentary committees have oversight of
all security services in a manner determined by national
legislation or the rules and orders of Parliament.
There are enough checks and balances to ensure that, in
undertaking the necessary work of protecting national
security and making the population feel and be safe, we
uphold the Constitution at all times.
These are the words of President Zuma while addressing us
on the National Intelligence Service Day. Thank you very
much, House Chairperson. We really plead for the support of
our Budget Vote. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
EPD 10 MAY 2012
Debate concluded.
The Committee rose at 16:02.
PAGE 80 of 80