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WEDNESDAY, 5 MAY 2010
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PROCEEDINGS OF EXTENDED PUBLIC COMMITTEE – COMMITTEE ROOM E249
CHAMBER
____
Members of the Extended Public Committee met in Committee Room E249
at 14:01.
House Chairperson Mr M B Skosana, as Chairperson, took the Chair and
requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or
meditation.
APPROPRIATION BILL
Debate on Vote No 9 – National Treasury [State Security]:
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Chairperson, Ministers and Deputy
Ministers present, hon members, distinguished guests, members of the
intelligence community, our intelligence veterans and fellow South
Africans, 2010 is a remarkable year for South Africa. In 2010, we
celebrate 20 years of the release of President Nelson Mandela. In
his state of the nation address, President Zuma reminded us that:
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The release of Madiba was brought about by the resolute struggles
of the South African people ... Let us pursue the ideal for which
Madiba has fought his entire life – the ideal of a democratic and
free society, in which all persons live together in harmony and
with equal opportunities.
As we celebrate this icon, we draw strength from his February 1990
speech after his release, where he said:
The majority of South Africans, black and white, recognise that
apartheid has no future. It has to be ended by our own decisive
mass action in order to build peace and security. Our search for
peace is a search for strength.
In 36 days, the entire world will descend on African soil as we host
the 2010 Fifa World Cup tournament. This is a concrete expression to
the people of Africa that we have the capacity to organise world
events of this magnitude. We are striving to ensure that the event
remains peaceful, enjoyable, leaves a lasting legacy and becomes a
springboard for Africa’s development. The tournament is proving to
be a major nation-building project, uniting our people behind our
flag and the National Anthem. It brings a true sense of common
nationhood.
Once more, we want to reassure the world that we are ready to host
the 2010 Fifa World Cup. Our assessment to date does not indicate
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any security threat to the event, including the cancer of global
terrorism. However, we are not lowering our guard. We are grateful
to our partners in the Southern African Development Community, SADC,
Africa and the rest of the world who continue to share intelligence
regarding the security of the tournament.
As the intelligence community, we are conducting daily threat
assessments, including the appraisal of routes, base camps, hotels
and screening of service providers. This information is fed into the
National Joint Operational Centre to guide operations. We urge all
service providers to the event to submit themselves for security
screening as no one will be allowed to participate without
fulfilling this requirement.
During the soccer tournament next month, we will also be celebrating
55 years of the Freedom Charter. In 1955, another struggle icon,
Walter Sisulu, announced that:
The campaign which produced the Freedom Charter was the beginning
of our great campaign, of the building from our multiracial
society of a united nation, free from poverty and misery, free
from racial strife and antagonism. It is our hardest campaign
which will bring to the broad masses of our people the
understanding that they have much more in common than the things
which superficially appear to divide them.
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We in State Security are in agreement with this foresight and are
convinced that there may not be social cohesion until such time that
we redress the legacy of apartheid. No divided nation can guarantee
its own national security. Our government is working hard to bridge
the racial divide that still exists within our communities. Both the
plight of the majority and the concerns of the minority groupings
are being attended to.
The recent right-wing threats emanating from the death of Mr
Terre’Blanche can therefore not be justified. We are working with
the Afrikaner community and the Jewish, Muslim and other religious
groupings to build cohesion and strengthen the unity of our nation.
In this regard, we applaud the Afrikaner leadership who have
retracted the inflammatory statements recently issued in the media
after the death of Mr Terre’Blanche.
Chairperson, last year, when we addressed this House, we committed
ourselves to embark on a review of our intelligence services, with
the aim of developing an efficient and effective intelligence
structure. The objective of this restructuring was to instil a
common vision and improve the quality of our products, training and
technical capabilities. In this regard, we hope to transform our
community to be a sharper “eye of the nation”.
I am honoured to report that in September 2009 a single department,
the State Security Agency, was established by a Presidential
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Proclamation. The command and control of the civilian intelligence
community has been centralised under the Director-General Mr
Maqetuka, assisted by heads of domestic and external components, Mr
Njenje and Mr Shaik respectively, and Mr Sokupa remains the Coordinator for Intelligence.
These high-level appointments were followed by the appointment of a
Deputy Director-General in Corporate Services, Prof Africa, and the
chief financial officer. We are currently in the process of filling
the critical posts of the chief information officer, the head of
human resources and head of internal audit.
Since 1 April 2010, the Director-General of the State Security
Agency has been the sole accounting officer for the agency. We are
grateful to the University of Pretoria for seconding Prof Africa to
the agency to lead and manage this massive task of restructuring.
In line with our undertaking to complete the reorganisation of state
security institutions swiftly and without disruptions, our goals for
2010 include the following: tabling of the National State Security
Bill to effect the amalgamation of the various intelligence
components into a single entity; redeployment of members into new
structures and upgrading their skills to ensure that the agency has
adequate human capital to meet the new challenges; integrating
technology platforms; and playing a more proactive leadership role
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in developing policy, setting security standards, and monitoring for
compliance.
Chairperson, last year we undertook to develop a framework for the
establishment of the Border Management Agency, BMA. This was
completed by 15 December 2009. It will address the security gaps at
our ports of entry and along our borders. The objective is to
promote free movement of goods and people while preventing
illegality. In this regard, the BMA will improve the security of our
borders and ports of entry and promote trade within the region.
We have set up an interdepartmental task team at directors-general
level to conceptualise and develop the BMA. This task team has
registered considerable progress. It set up various work streams,
namely the ports of entry, infrastructure, human resource and
budgets. We have also concluded a feasibility study required to
ensure that the BMA becomes a legal entity in the next three months.
We are currently in the process of obtaining approval from the
Departments of Public Service and Administration and the National
Treasury.
We have also agreed on the functions which the BMA will perform, as
well as its relationship with the SA National Defence Force, SANDF,
which recently took the responsibility to patrol and secure our
borderlines. Meanwhile, we will continue to strengthen the current
Border Control Operational Co-ordination Committee, BCOCC. By the
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end of this month, the State Security Agency will install the
communications link between the BCOCC National Nerve Centre and the
key ports of entry.
We also undertook to resubmit the draft Protection of Information
Bill to Parliament in order to secure the integrity of sensitive
state information and criminalise the activities of those engaging
in espionage and information peddling. This Bill has been tabled
before Parliament and is being considered by the ad hoc committee.
Given the importance of the Bill, we urge the ad hoc committee to
expedite its processing.
In 2009 I announced our plan to embark upon a project to develop an
early warning system to monitor and identify risks to our critical
national infrastructure. The National Intelligence Co-ordinating
Committee, Nicoc, has concluded the pilot project in the development
of such an early warning system. We aim to expand the project to
include all state-owned enterprises, including provincial entities.
Sixteen years after the advent of democracy, the White Paper on
Intelligence is due for review. In addition, during our last Budget
Vote debate, we undertook to prioritise the finalisation of the
national security strategy by the end of the term of this
government.
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The drafting of the strategy has begun in earnest. The main purpose
of the strategy is to build an understanding and national
consciousness around the security challenges we face as a nation.
Furthermore, the strategy will provide a long-term framework for
managing the security threats facing our country.
To realise this important objective, we must, as a nation, develop a
common understanding on what constitutes national security, as well
as the foundation upon which it will be based.
I would like to emphasise that the strategy requires that we take
collective ownership. It will therefore be essential to engage with
members of the public on this matter. We hope the Joint Standing
Committee on Intelligence, JSCI, will take this challenge once the
draft is tabled.
In the spirit of doing things differently, our work will not only be
informed by the national intelligence priorities as encapsulated in
our national intelligence estimate, but also by the performance
agreement I signed with the President on 29 April 2010 last week.
This is part of a national effort to build a performance-driven
state focusing on measurable outcomes on priorities.
Some of the priorities for the year will be as follows: We will be
contributing to the realisation of the outcome of ensuring that all
people in South Africa are safe and feel safe. Government has
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declared war on crime and has set an objective to reduce crime
levels in the country, particularly those that are violent in
nature. In this regard, we will introduce in our intelligence
analysis the scoping of the extent and impact of syndicated violent
crimes and an annual assessment of strategic crime trends in the
national intelligence estimate. We will establish operations against
domestic and transnational crime syndicates and we will employ all
the capacities at our disposal, including liaison with other foreign
intelligence services, to share information. This has proved to be
useful because it builds joint operations with neighbouring and
fraternal countries. We will provide actionable intelligence to
assist in the prosecutions or disruption of activities of the
syndicates. In this financial year, we will also develop a
comprehensive counterterrorism strategy which will guide our
counterterrorism operations.
We have begun the preparatory work within the security cluster,
working together with Co-operative Governance and Traditional
Affairs and the Independent Electoral Commission, IEC, to provide
security assessments, the setting up of systems and to ensure that
the 2011 local government elections are held in a peaceful
atmosphere. Our primary focus will be to eliminate no-go areas in
order to ensure that all South Africans participate freely in the
elections without any fear of intimidation.
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The intelligence sector continues to monitor and assess the
manifestation of xenophobia across the country, with the aim of
averting the possibility of violent outbreak against foreign
nationals. Our assessment reveals an ongoing tension between local
communities and foreign nationals in various hotspots across the
country. We will continue to work with local and émigré communities
to prevent the commission of these inhuman acts.
We will assist, through joint operations and co-ordination, in the
fight to root out fraud, theft and corruption within the cluster and
government in general. Within the State Security Agency, we have
instituted investigations in several areas, including the group
insurance scheme for members. We will release the report once the
investigations are concluded, and we will not hesitate to act
against the culprits.
Within the cluster, we will continue working with Home Affairs to
curb the scourge of identity fraud, which has become a threat to our
national security, the wellbeing of our citizens and the integrity
of our systems.
We are going to increase our counterintelligence capacity in order
to assist government in the fight against corruption. We shall
conduct regular screening those entrusted with state resources. We
shall extend our vetting programmes to provincial and local spheres
of government.
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The intelligence community will also make an important contribution
to the government’s outcome to create a better South Africa and
contribute to a better and safer Africa and the world. Our
operations will be directed towards supporting government in
advancing regional, continental and global peace, security and
sustainable development. In this regard, we will continue to work
within the ambit of the SADC, African Union, AU, and the United
Nations, UN, to support peace initiatives in the region and the
continent. We will increase our presence on the continent and
prioritise the conflict areas and work to stabilise these,
particularly the Democratic Republic of Congo, DRC, Sudan,
Madagascar, Somalia and Zimbabwe.
We will continue to lead the work on the conceptualisation and
establishment of the SADC Early Warning Centre in Gaborone in
Botswana with the objective that the centre will be fully
operational by the end of the year.
Illicit mining has emerged as a multifaceted national security
threat, costing the economy billions of rand in revenue. Amongst
others, illicit mining is taking place in the gold, platinum and
diamond sectors. For example, the gold sector alone loses an
estimated R5,7 billion in annual revenue through these transnational
organised crime syndicates. We should note that the Welkom and
Barberton areas have been particularly hard-hit by illicit mining
activities.
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Illicit mining presents us with a range of social challenges, such
as the corrupting of communities, forced child labour, and related
criminal activity, including tax evasion, human trafficking,
prostitution and gangsterism.
As government, we are determined to address this threat to our
economy and our communities. We have appointed an interdepartmental
team, involving the State Security Agency, SA Police Service, crime
intelligence, National Prosecuting Authority, Special Investigating
Unit, Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation, Department of
Mineral Resources and Department of Home Affairs, to effectively
deal with illicit mining and related activities. We are happy to
report that this collaboration has yielded positive results.
As you are aware, for national security reasons ours is not a
unionised environment. Our members are represented by the staff
council in the consultation mechanism. We have directed the
management and the staff council to advise me on the best ways of
strengthening this mechanism and to ensure that the staff council is
resourceful and able to advance the interests of their members. We
are grateful to the staff council for their positive engagement and
tireless effort in ensuring professionalism in our community.
Our members are intelligence officers for life. We therefore value
our veterans and believe they should play a vital role in our
affairs. We are going to rely on their expertise in training,
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mentoring and liaising with our communities. In the next three
months, we will be convening a national consultative meeting with
our veterans with the aim to formalise their interaction with us.
I would like to thank all those who continue to extend a hand of
assistance to the community, especially President Zuma and Deputy
President Motlanthe for their support and advice. Our appreciation
also goes to the Chairperson of the Audit Committee, Mrs Spellman,
Judge Khumalo responsible for interception directions, the AuditorGeneral Mr Nombembe, the Inspector-General Adv Radebe, my family and
friends, the veterans, colleagues in the clusters, the members of
the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, JSCI, under the
leadership of Mr Burgess, the top management of the State Security
Agency led by Director-General Maqetuka, and my staff in the office
led by Dr Khau Mavhungu.
In conclusion, I wish to recall the preamble of the Constitution
which enjoins us to the national duty of building cohesion and
ensuring equality and prosperity for all. This spirit of
togetherness is pertinent if we are to achieve a safer and more
secure life for all our people.
It is perhaps crucial to borrow from a Tshivenda wisdom:
Mulilo muvhaswa nga vhanzhi u dzima u a konda. [A threefold cord is
not quickly broken.]
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It is easy to defeat people who do not kindle a fire for themselves.
Our national security is the fire which we, together with society,
are determined to kindle.
I request the House to adopt this Budget Vote. I thank you.
[Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Thank you, hon Minister, I
am going to let it pass because I had somebody who wanted you to
repeat what you said. [Laughter.] I am not going to say it is me.
Mr C V BURGESS: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister of State Security,
Ministers and Deputy Ministers from the security cluster, hon
members, members of the intelligence community, distinguished
guests, ladies and gentlemen. I also recognise in our presence the
Director-General of State Security, Mr Maqetuka; Inspector-General
of Intelligence, Adv Radebe and some of her staff; the Chief of
Defence Intelligence, General Shilubane - congratulations, general,
on your new appointment; Gen Mdluli, Head of Crime Intelligence, and
all the heads of department of the State Security Agency and heads
of other intelligence entities.
Allow me upfront to place on record that the Joint Standing
Committee on Intelligence, JSCI, is satisfied with and deeply
appreciative of the level of co-operation that we are receiving from
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the Ministry and the newly-established State Security Agency in
fulfilling our oversight mandate. Defence intelligence and crime
intelligence have equally co-operated with the committee in a
responsible and professional manner. The committee therefore has
expectations that this level of co-operation will continue in
future.
There are many people present in the House today, good people, who
work silently and dutifully out of the public eye. They play a major
role in protecting the people of this country — men and women who
work in the intelligence community almost never get credit for the
work they do. We consider it necessary to acknowledge their
contribution to ensuring that our country is protected against the
enemies of our state.
With due respect, allow me to inform the House and those who are not
familiar with our constitutional imperative regarding the national
security of our state that section 198 of our Constitution provides
that the national security is subject to the authority of Parliament
and the national executive. It further provides that national
security must reflect the resolve of South Africans as individuals
and as a nation to live as equals, to live in peace and harmony, to
be free from fear and want and to seek a better live.
National security is at the centre of our Constitution, and it is
Parliament and the executive that has the constitutional obligation
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to act as a custodian of the people when it comes to national
security.
Historically, many of mankind’s conflicts have resulted from the
undermining of the national security and national interest of a
particular country or region. Many of these conflicts have led to
holocausts that, on reflection, should warn us that this is a matter
we should all take seriously.
The United States Holocaust Encyclopedia, dated April 2010, records
that the estimated death toll worldwide at the end of the Second
World War was in the region of 55 million people and concludes, “It
was the largest and most destructive conflict in history”.
We have on our continent of Africa witnessed perpetual conflict,
which has not only destabilised the continent, but also affected the
national security of our country. It is not necessary to mention or
identify the countries or regions of conflict. However, what we do
know is that hundreds of thousand of people have died and millions
have become displaced as a consequence of these conflicts.
Our people rely heavily on the contribution of the State Security
Agency and the other intelligence entities, and the defence and
crime intelligence, in securing our people and the national interest
of the country. They must protect our people in relation to national
security, but, with respect, the Constitution in relation to
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national security demands more. As I have already mentioned,
national security must reflect the problems South Africans are
facing. There is therefore a need for public participation in
considering the narrower and broader principle encapsulated in the
concept as set out in our Constitution. We hear what the hon
Minister has promised now on the matter.
The idea of public participation is an active one. It must involve
the public so that they become part of the process and feel that
they own it and play the part of true patriots. A patriot is a
person who is a proud supporter or defender of his or her country
and its way of life, a loyalist and a national flag waver.
As we approach the 2010 Fifa World Cup, we have this rare
opportunity to call on our nation and people to show the world that
we South Africans are truly proud and truly patriots,
notwithstanding the diversity. Whilst opposition and criticism
fortify democracy and so acts as a safeguard against the abuse of
state power, we must be mindful that this is our country.
Whatever surprises Bafana Bafana may have arranged for the nation
regarding their forthcoming performances in the World Cup, as South
Africans, regardless of colour, race or creed, we must unite as a
nation, as true patriots. And as the nation unites, hon Minister,
you and all the other intelligence entities, constituted in terms of
the Constitution to protect our country, need to co-ordinate your
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efforts so that we as a nation can truly provide a successful World
Cup.
Section 210 of the Constitution provides for the proper effective
co-ordination of all intelligence services. This co-ordination is
critical to the work of our intelligence entities. It is in fact
only through proper co-ordination of all our intelligence services
that we can be assured that our national security and national
interests have been carefully considered. A lack of proper coordination, inter alia, can lead to duplication of intelligence
operations but, more seriously, to intelligence failures because
information and intelligence products are not shared amongst
interested entities.
Hon Minister, you know that early warning systems are key to
effective co-ordination. The JSCI understands that that is the work
of the National Intelligence Co-ordinating Committee, Nicoc, which
has the mandate to provide the co-ordination. However, hon Minister,
in your restructuring schedule the committee did not get a clear
picture as to how the new State Security Agency will co-ordinate and
co-operate with the other intelligence services.
On the question of restructuring, the hon Minister informed the
House a year ago of the progressive move to restructure our civilian
intelligence entities in order to create the new State Security
Agency. Many experienced intelligence people have been brought on
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board and appointed to key positions in order to strengthen
capacity. The JSCI supports the move, but expects that the process
of restructuring will now be accelerated. Hon Minister, the
restructuring process must reach finality, since it has affected the
oversight work of the committee.
However, before I leave the topic of restructuring, hon Minister, we
as the JSCI are yet to hear you in detail on the question of gender
equality, especially in the top management positions. We now have
our first female Inspector-General for Intelligence. The committee
would like to see government’s promise to implement gender equality
filter down faster to your department.
The re-introduction of the Protection of Information Bill has been
welcomed by the JSCI. We do expect that the ad hoc committee dealing
with the matter will process the Bill responsibly and expeditiously.
However, the Bill, once implemented, will create certain challenges,
particularly in relation to a proper and effective vetting strategy.
The JSCI therefore expects that the State Security Agency will
increase its capacity in this area in order to accommodate the
expected demand for the vetting of personnel.
I must mention Comsec, the Electronic Communications Security (Pty)
Ltd, and I hope I have not spoilt your day, Minister. It has such an
important mandate in the protection of this country’s national
interest and security. Yet, hon Minister, the delivery has not been
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up to standard. The JSCI is concerned and we trust that in the
restructuring process careful consideration will be given to the
problems at Comsec.
I wish to conclude by quoting one of the famous poets of our time,
Wilfred Owen, who wrote and died during the First World War:
It is sweet and right to die for the homeland, but it is sweeter
to live for the homeland, and the sweetest to drink for it.
Therefore, let us drink to the health of the homeland.
Allow me to thank the hon Minister, staff, and people in the
intelligence community for the co-operation that we as the JCSI
receive. The JSCI supports the Budget Vote.
Mr T W COETZEE: Chairperson, hon Minister of State Security, hon
Burgess, Chairperson of the Joint Standing Committee on
Intelligence, JSCI, hon members of the JSCI, hon Members of
Parliament, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen, with your
approval I would also like to acknowledge my wife Magda in the
public gallery for her presence and support.
I also want to acknowledge at this stage that my facts and my
recommendations are based on the final report to the former Minister
of Intelligence Services dated 10 September 2008. It is titled,
Intelligence in a Constitutional Democracy.
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The need for a balance between secrecy and security measures and
transparency in a democratic and open society is of great importance
for the security of our land.
Ms Hutton says in her overview of the intelligence services secrets,
spies and security:
... the issue of the relationship between intelligence and
democracy in South Africa is also brought to the fore ... It is
therefore important to consider and evaluate how the South African
intelligence community is grappling with meeting the democratic
demands of openness and accountability while, at the same time,
maintaining the secrecy deemed necessary if intelligence is to
function effectively.
As pointed out in the White Paper, the uncontrolled and excessive
use of secrecy increases the potential for abuse of the
intelligence and security services. In essence, uncontrolled and
excessive secrecy undermines the very fabric of democracy; it can
be a source of instability and can even be detrimental to
countering certain threats to security. Without an adequate legal
framework to govern the use of secrecy, the possibility for abuse
exists.
The report further says that a system that overclassifies
information lacks credibility. It is difficult to maintain and
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enforce and it is administratively costly and inefficient. In
addition, excessive secrecy gave rise to suspicion and fear of the
intelligence organisations and this reduced public support for them.
In a democracy, unlike a police state, intelligence agencies must
rely on public co—operation to be successful.
It is necessary to constantly guard against both the
overclassification and the underclassification of information.
Misuse of classifications can result in the system being treated
with contempt. We need to strive for reconciliation between the
requirements of sound administration and those of effective
security.
Security measures are not intended and should not be applied to
cover up maladministration, corruption and criminal actions or to
protect individuals or officials involved in such acts.
The classification of information and/or documentation should be
limited to information that may be used by malicious, opposing or
hostile elements to harm the objectives and functions of an
individual and/or institution.
The report further says that the challenge of the intelligence
services in a democracy is that the perspective is drawn primarily
from the South African Constitution, which includes provisions on
security and intelligence and contains a Bill of Rights that is
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binding on all organs of state. The excellence of the Constitution
asserts that the values, on which our democratic state is founded,
include human dignity, the achievement of equality, the advancement
of human rights and freedoms, and the supremacy of the Constitution
and the rule of law.
The rule of law is one of the cardinal features of governance that
distinguishes a democratic state from an undemocratic state. It
establishes the primacy of law and order to create a legitimate and
stable dispensation based on rules approved by elected
representatives.
Die Grondwet is ons wettige en etiese raamwerk, omrede dit die
hoogste gesag is – ek verwys na artikel 2 van die Grondwet. Dit lê
die basis vir ’n demokratiese en ’n oop samelewing waarin die
regering gevestig is op die wil van die bevolking en waarin elke
burger gelyk beskerm word deur die reg. Die Grondwet bepaal
uitdruklik dat die intelligensiedienste moet optree, hul lede leer,
en eis dat hul lede sal optree in ooreenstemming met die Grondwet en
die reg. Ek verwys na artikel 199(5) van die Grondwet. (Translation
of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[The Constitution is our legal and ethical framework, as it is the
highest authority – I am referring to section 2 of the Constitution.
It forms the foundation of a democratic and open society in which
government is founded on the will of the people and in which each
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citizen is equally protected by the law. The Constitution expressly
states that the intelligence services should act, must teach their
members, and require their members to act in accordance with the
Constitution and the law. I am referring to section 199(5) of the
Constitution.]
The implications of this constitutional perspective are that
violations of constitutional rights by the intelligence services
cannot be justified simply on the grounds of national security. An
emphasis on human security does not mean that the security of the
state is unimportant. In short, national security encompasses the
security of the country, its people, the state and the
constitutional order. These elements are interlinked and none of
them is more important than the other.
A broad approach to national security implies that the security
services should have expansive mandates. We must be very careful,
because this could make the services too influential, powerful and
intrusive. It would create the danger of the security services
encroaching inappropriately into politics, governance and social
life.
The mechanisms of transparency and public discussion on intelligence
are intended to ensure that the intelligence services are
subordinate and accountable to the executive and Parliament and that
the services comply with the Constitution.
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Whereas the accountability of the intelligence services to the
executive and Parliament is strong, the accountability of the
services and the intelligence oversight and control bodies to the
public is less strong, almost nonexistent. This is a consequence of
insufficient transparency. Ministerial regulations governing the
services are secret; the Auditor-General’s reports on the services
are secret; the budgets of the services and most of their annual
reports are secret and there is very little public information
regarding the activities and findings of the Inspector—General of
Intelligence.
The report further says that the high level of secrecy is
inconsistent with the Constitution, which insists that all spheres
of government and all organs of state must be transparent and
accountable, according to section 4l(1) of the Constitution. The
National Assembly may not exclude the public, including the media,
from a sitting of a committee, unless it is reasonable and
justifiable to do so in an open and democratic society.
As we all know, the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, JSCI,
holds all its meetings in secret, with the result that the public is
unable to learn about the committee’s oversight of the intelligence
services, its assessment of their performance and its efforts to
address problems that it identifies. The reports that are presented
to the JSCI by the Minister, the Inspector—General and the heads of
services are classified and are therefore not tabled in the National
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Assembly. The JSCI presents annual reports to Parliament and also
tables in Parliament its reports on controversial intelligence
incidents, but these reports are not accessible to the public.
Die Grondwet beklemtoon die beginsel van deursigtige regering.
Verder bepaal die Handves van Regte dat almal die reg het op toegang
tot enige inligting wat in die staat se besit mag wees en dat
wetgewing voorsiening moet maak om uitvoering te gee aan hierdie
reg. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[The Constitution emphasises the principle of transparent
governance. Furthermore, the Bill of Rights determines that everyone
has the right of access to any information held by the state and
that legislation should give effect to this right.]
South Africans talk constantly about policing, prisons and the
judiciary, but there is little debate on intelligence issues apart
from occasional bursts of attention at times of controversy. The
lack of debate on intelligence issues may also be due to a
perception that an intelligence service is too sensitive and that it
lies outside the public domain. This is not a healthy state of
affairs in a democracy. Steps should be taken to raise awareness and
facilitate discussion on intelligence.
The objective of South Africa’s White Paper on Intelligence of 1994
asserts that a new mission is being set for the South African
EPC 5 MAY 2010
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intelligence community in line with the new, nonracial, democratic
order, in which much weight is given to the rights of the
individual. The White Paper asserts repeatedly the necessity for the
new intelligence services to comply with the rule of law and other
democratic norms, including subordination and accountability to
Parliament.
Finansiële beheer en toesig oor die intelligensiedienste is van
groot belang. Die risiko dat fondse vir persoonlike verryking
misbruik kan word, is altyd moontlik wanneer groot bedrae geld in
besit van organisasies is. Dit is veral ’n moontlikheid waar geld
gebruik kan word vir geheime projekte en inligting, en slegs op
grond van “dit is voldoende om slegs kennis te dra” beskikbaar
gestel kan word. Byvoorbeeld, in die geval waar informante betaal
word en uitgawes aangegaan is by die oprigting van frontmaatskappye, is daar uiteraard ’n groter risiko van misbruik as by
normale finansiële transaksies.
Die Wet op Openbare Finansiële Bestuur, Wet No 1 van 1999, is daarop
gemik om die verantwoordbaarheid, deursigtigheid en goeie bestuur
van inkomste, uitgawes, bates en laste van staatsdepartemente en
ander spesifieke entiteite te verseker. Die wet is voorskriftelik
ten opsigte van die manier waarop openbare fondse deur departemente
bestuur moet word en die verantwoordelikheid van departementshoofde
met betrekking tot finansiële bestuur, begrotings en verslae.
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Dit is ’n groot bekommernis dat die intelligensiedienste nie hul eie
Begrotingspos het ten opsigte van die fondse wat jaarliks deur die
Parlement aan hulle toegeken word nie. Verder gee die
intelligensiedienste ook nie gehoor aan die Wet op Openbare
Finansiële Bestuur of die Witskrif oor Intelligensie nie. Die
intelligensiedienste se begroting word slegs as ’n enkellyn in die
Begrotingspos van die Nasionale Tesourie aangedui as ’n oorplasing
van fondse, terwyl die begroting van die Departement van Korrektiewe
Dienste byvoorbeeld bladsye van syfers en verduidelikings beloop.
(Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Financial control and oversight over the intelligence services is
of great importance. The risk of misusing funds for personal
enrichment is always a possibility when organisations are in
possession of huge amounts of money. It is a possibility, especially
where the money could be used for secret projects and information
and could be granted on the grounds that “it will suffice just to be
aware of it”. When, for example, informants are paid and expenses
are incurred by establishing front companies, there is inevitably a
greater risk of misuse than with normal financial transactions.
The Public Finance Management Act, Act No 1 of 1999, is aimed at
ensuring the accountability, transparency and proper management of
income, expenditure, assets and liabilities of government
departments and other specific entities. The Act prescribes the way
in which public funds should be managed by departments, as well as
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the responsibility of heads of department with regard to financial
management, budgets and reports.
It is a great concern that the intelligence services do not have
their own Budget Vote with regard to the funds that are allocated to
them by Parliament annually. Furthermore, the intelligence services
do not adhere to the Public Finance Management Act or the White
Paper on Intelligence. In the Budget Vote for National Treasury, the
budget for intelligence services is merely indicated with a singleline entry as a transfer of funds, whereas the budget for the
Department of Correctional Services, for example, comprises pages
and pages of numbers and explanations.]
The Budget and annual financial reports of the intelligence services
are reviewed by the JSCI which reports to Parliament, but the
documents themselves are confidential and are not presented to
Parliament. The intelligence services are therefore not directly
accountable to Parliament for their budgets and spending.
With respect to the hon Minister, as stated in my budget speech on 1
July 2009, to date, the annual reports of the JSCI for the period
2005 until 2009, four years, have not yet been tabled in Parliament.
This arrangement deviates from the Constitution, which states that
national, provincial and municipal budgets and budgetary processes
must promote transparency and accountability. The arrangement is
also inconsistent with the Public Finance Management Act.
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One of the fundamental rules of a democratic dispensation is that
government can only spend money with the approval of Parliament. Yet
our Parliament does not have any direct insight into the budgets and
activities of the intelligence services and therefore cannot engage
in an informed debate on these matters.
Intelligence organisations are resistant to revealing their budgets,
on the grounds that foreign intelligence agencies would thereby gain
an advantage over them. I believe that this argument is totally
overstated. A foreign agency would not gain from knowledge of how
much money other countries spend on its intelligence services. The
disclosure of the spending breakdown on personnel, operating costs
and capital expenditure will be of no advantage to anybody. It is
only at a higher level of detail, regarding targets, methods,
sources and operational outputs and constraints, that the secrecy
could be undermined through disclosure.
I believe that the intelligence services should have their own
Budget Vote in respect of monies approved annually by Parliament. In
doing so, they would not be expected to disclose information that
would compromise their operations, methods and sources. I would like
to take this opportunity to propose that the National Treasury
create and implement a Budget Vote for State Security as soon as
possible.
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The most notable feature of the constitutional provisions of
transparency is the inseparability of the concept of democracy and
openness. The right of access to information lies at the heart of
transparent governance and provides a basis for democratic
accountability and an open and free society. The abuse of secrecy is
the antithesis of democratic governance. It prevents full
accountability and it provides fertile ground for abuse of power and
a culture of impunity.
Secrecy must consequently be regarded as the exception to the rule
and its use must be justified in each and every case. The
justification should not rest on the broad notion of national
security, but should instead specify the significant harm that
disclosure might cause to the lives of individuals, the state or the
country as a whole. Section 32(2) of the Constitution provides that
national legislation must be enacted to give effect to this right.
In conclusion, section 32(1) of the Constitution states, amongst
other things, that everyone has the right of access to any
information held by the state, and any limitation of the right of
access to information must be consistent with section 36(l) of the
Constitution, which deals with limitations of rights.
We need to now examine the high level of secrecy surrounding the
intelligence organisations, if the role of State Security is to be
consistent with the Constitution. We should not forget that the
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Constitution does not treat the security service as an exception in
this regard.
Despite the above, that there is no detailed budget for intelligence
services as required and prescribed by the Public Finance Management
Act, PFMA, and supported by the Constitution, we will support the
Budget Vote. [Applause.]
Mr M S SHILOWA: Chairperson, hon Minister, Cope will support the
budget. We support the objectives for which it is being set aside.
We think it is important that the issues of personnel and
infrastructure, in particular, are put in place to ensure national
security. We are not only aware but also accept that there will be
discussions about protection of information and the orderly release
and declassification of information, which will make it possible to
find a balance between the dictates of the Constitution for
transparency whilst at the same time ensuring national security.
As the Minister has said, 2010 will pose a challenge, particularly
the 2010 World Cup, to the security cluster, especially the
intelligence community. This is partly because of the scepticism
about our ability to provide security for our own citizens and
therefore implying that it is likely to be more difficult to protect
the visitors. To portray us as not ready or unable to secure the
tournament will take just one incident being blown out of
proportion.
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It is therefore important that, in whatever we do — the coordination in terms of military defence intelligence,
counterintelligence and intelligence itself — we work together to
ensure that, notwithstanding this scepticism, we can say to the
people of the world that not only are we ready but also able to
ensure that they are secure.
National security, of course, is not just about personnel or rather
security and policing. It must also be about the improvement of the
lives of our people and ensuring effective delivery of services;
hence the focus on national security, corruption, fraud, economic
espionage, resources, particularly water, electricity, mineral
resources and other installations, and infrastructure becomes very
important.
As the Minister has said, he is currently engaged in restructuring.
It is one thing to restructure and another to perpetually
restructure with no results in mind. We think it’s important that
there should be a clearer goal. Restructuring is not about shifting
staff from one section to another, but about new ways of doing
things, consolidation and co-ordination. In that way it requires
that we have short- and medium- to long-term goals. The short-term
goals must be clear regarding where they begin and where they end.
The same must apply to medium-term and long-term goals.
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As one knows, restructuring has an impact on the morale of the
staff. We’re not going to be in a position to ensure that we keep
the morale high in the intelligence department, particularly because
it is very difficult to acknowledge the good work that they may be
doing. But one can generally realise when things have gone wrong.
It’s always difficult to keep the morale high, unless we handle
restructuring in a better way.
The review of the White Paper on Intelligence has been spoken about.
I think that is the process which will give us an opportunity to
indicate what has worked in terms of this review over the past 15 or
16 years, what have been the problems in terms of the White Paper,
where we need to improve and which issues have not worked or are
archaic and have no place in a constitutional democracy, which we
must therefore discard.
The point regarding how the intelligence services account to
Parliament has been raised. I think it is not about where they give
account. It is about the fact that even though we have a Joint
Standing Committee on Intelligence the debates, the discussions and
the budget take place in the National Assembly. This means that even
though it is Parliament as a whole that is doing the oversight work,
really the opportunity to raise, debate and challenge issues only
falls on the National Assembly and not the NCOP.
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The whole issue of review must also include the desirability or
otherwise of it being a Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence.
I’m not saying it should not be, but we need to be clear — if it is
a Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence it should not only be
receiving reports but also engage on a platform such as this one.
Lastly, I just want to commend the Minister and the agencies for the
commitment they have shown to come forth and provide the required
information. The challenge for the committee is to find ways and
means to ensure that one can separate smoke from mirrors and to
further ensure that it is not only smoke and mirrors but also the
real things that need to be done.
For instance, we have discussed issues of Comsec, formally
Electronic Communications Security (Pty) Ltd, as they have been
raised. The question is not whether we need it or not, but how do we
set up a structure when we are unable to ensure that it is being
utilised to its full effectiveness? If we do have reliable
intelligence, how do we then ensure that the issues of crime and
incidents of violent crime, in particular, are reduced so that
people can begin to have a sense of security? I thank you.
Prof C T MSIMANG: Chair, hon Minister, Deputy Ministers and hon
members. The success or failure of any state department is measured
not only by what it does or fails to do, but also by the feelings
and concerns of the citizens. This too applies to the newly
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established Department of State Security. Accordingly it is
incumbent upon this department to allay the people’s fears by
addressing their concerns, albeit within the stringent confines of
the secretive and sensitive nature of information that intelligence
deals with.
Let me illustrate by means of only two issues of concern. The first
pertains to the protection of South Africa’s porous borders and the
other deals with the Fifa World Cup tournament. Regarding the issue
of our borders, it must be pointed out that the concern is not only
the infiltration of our borders by illegal immigrants, but also the
criminal elements that are associated with the influx of illegal
immigrants. By way of example, I cite the unfortunate and everincreasing number of murders of farmers and farmworkers in our
country.
This has led to serious concerns being expressed by the youth wing
of AfriForum in a memorandum which contains a list of 1 600 people
who have been murdered on South African farms in recent years. The
AfriForum youth drew a connection between the said list and the
pursuant singing of the Kill the Boer song by Julius Malema. To
those who compiled the memorandum, each name listed was sacred,
representing a loved one who was untimely and brutally removed from
the land of the living. The way in which the memorandum was received
by the youth league must be condemned with contempt. The lists of
victims were scattered in the street and trampled on the ground.
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It is under circumstances such as these that the Department of State
Security must come forward and assure the farmers, whites and
blacks, that their lives are important to the state and that they,
too, are entitled to protection by the state, as the Minister has
just said in his debate.
We, in the IFP, congratulate the Minister of State Security on his
appointment as the chairperson of the newly-established South
African National Border Management Agency. We would like to believe
that, with him at the helm, cross-border crime and illegal entry of
foreigners into our country will be minimised. The Minister
accordingly needs to take the people of South Africa into his
confidence by, amongst other things, media briefings and public
statements that their concerns are receiving attention.
With regard to the upcoming 2010 Fifa World Cup, the recurrent and
persistent concern raised by the local and international community
is whether it will take place in a crime-free and safe environment.
Media reports which highlight the fact that some individuals are
planning to use this joyous occasion to line their pockets are
alarming, to say the least. We, however, appreciate the swift action
that was taken against these individuals.
Another concern is expressed by those who have invested their hardearned money in projects connected to the World Cup showpiece. Their
concerns relate to whether the recently quoted figures of 373 000
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tourists to our country, which have gone down from the previously
estimated 483 000, will still be realised. This is pursuant to the
fact that of the 3 million tickets produced, only about 300 have
been purchased by soccer enthusiasts outside South Africa. Have the
rest been discouraged by prophets of doom, including some British
journalists who are dissuading people of the world from coming and
experiencing the Fifa World Cup in South Africa?
We are well aware of the capacity of our security agencies to ensure
security and stability during the time of major international events
in our country. Examples range from the Rugby World Cup in 1999 and
culminate in the Fifa Confederations Cup which took place in an
atmosphere of peace in 2008. In spite of this, for the sake of
doubting Thomases, we need this department to publicly dispute the
claims of the prophets of doom and encourage the whole world to come
to South Africa. The IFP supports the Budget Vote. [Time expired.]
[Applause.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A Mlangeni): Hon members on my right
hand side, please. We are discussing a matter of great importance,
security of the state. Please, let’s give one another a chance.
Let’s listen to what members are saying, what suggestions they are
making to the Minister on how best to protect our state. So please,
let’s give one another a chance. I now call upon hon member Fihla.
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Mr N B FIHLA: Chairperson, can I pass this small remark that hon
Coetzee should stop grandstanding; this is a serious committee. Hon
Ministers, hon members, the Director-General with his entire
security cluster, I greet you all on behalf of the Joint Standing
Committee on Intelligence. Let me start by pronouncing that the
African National Congress supports this Budget Vote.
The problem of crime has long been in the minds of tourists,
visitors and residents of the country, and in a beautiful country
with so much to offer, crime has stuck out as one of the main
scourges, keeping the country from being the best in the world.
We understand that crime is the function of inequality where the gap
between the poor and the rich is huge and the inequality in the
distribution of wealth and resources is wide. This then implies
that, with the widening differences in wealth, crime might increase
and, unless the inequalities are tackled, it may be difficult to
combat crime.
However, statistics compiled by the United Nations Interregional
Crime and Justice Research Institute show that South Africa has
lower rates of violent crime than most African and South American
countries, but due to the fact that South Africa is often compared
to the developed world, the crime rate is considered high when
measured against the likes of England, the United States, Italy,
Germany and other First World countries. We have to ask ourselves,
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why is it that we have a lower crime rate compared to other
developing countries?
There have been media reports that our borders are porous, which
makes it easier for foreign nationals to enter as they please, but
it is a reality that with South Africa having the highest gross
domestic product, GDP, in Africa, it attracts both legal and illegal
immigrants.
Also, with the high development of technology in the developed world
and in South Africa, we are facing the most sophisticated crimes,
that of organised crime and international syndicates who look at
South Africa as a potential gold mine.
It has therefore become important to tighten our security in the
country internally and externally. We have to get early warnings of
the strategies and tactics of these international criminals and drug
lords in order to nip them in the bud. Perhaps I do need to say that
the crime intelligence division of the SAPS, and other intelligence
structures, are working tirelessly to make this country safe.
The crime intelligence services, as provided for by section 2 of the
Intelligence Services Oversight Act, Act 40 of 1994, reports to the
Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence which plays an oversight
role over it. The intelligence committee itself is responsible for
managing information gathering, centralising an integrated
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intelligence management, co-ordination and analysis. They also
provide a technical intelligence support service to the operational
components of crime intelligence and, where necessary, to other
operational divisions of the SAPS.
At this juncture, I would like to congratulate our Minister of State
Security for having been appointed as head of the border management
agency. We have all confidence in you, Minister, and feel assured
that the fears that people might have can now be put aside and that
people can start enjoying democracy in a secured South Africa.
Minister, this will surely be a challenge to you, for it’s a fact
that there is a lot of cross-border crimes, particularly between
Lesotho and South Africa. Stock theft, drugs and stolen vehicles
which are excessively high are the order of the day. However, we
welcome the involvement of the Defence Force as part of the security
forces to patrol our borders.
But all is not doom and gloom for, recently, Local Organising
Committee CEO Dr Danny Jordaan confronted fears surrounding
spectator safety at the World Cup and said:
This world is unstable, not just for one country. If you look at
the track record of South Africa, it has hosted more than 150
major events since 1994, including the Rugby World Cup, the
Cricket World Cup. Last year we hosted the Indian Premier League,
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after India was deemed unsafe, and (rugby unions), British and
Irish Lions and (football’s) Confederation Cup — and there was not
a single incident. We are comfortable, but we will be vigilant.
These successes at our airports, on land and in our sea ports can
all be attributed to our intelligence capacity, to the security coordination of our security forces, in particular the crime
intelligence of the SA Police Force, because of their
professionalism and precision in their operations.
We must also praise all other forces of the security cluster for the
manner in which they share information so that it can be directed to
where it could be better utilised.
Crime affects all of us, so as citizens of this country, united in
our diversity, we also have a role to play to combat crime. The
following are some of the strategies we could employ, for crime is a
reality.
Strategy 1 acknowledges that community participation is an important
crime prevention strategy. For example, the Department of
Correctional Services requires the community to play a part in
rehabilitation, while the SAPS relies on the community to report
crimes.
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Strategy 2 states that communication between various role-players,
especially the police and communities, is vital for increasing
confidence and trust in the criminal justice system. For example,
when crimes are reported, victims should not have to wait for long
to receive case numbers as this does not provide an immediate
guarantee that something will be done.
Strategy 3 is the need to strengthen the criminal justice system in
responding to crime and the importance for various state organs in
the criminal justice system to collaborate to ensure multisectoral
strategies for crime prevention.
Strategy 4 entails encouragement of community participation,
especially participation partnerships with the SAPS and other law
enforcement agencies, for integrated crime prevention, including
pro-active responses in dealing with crime — especially domestic
violence — and the development of systems where individuals are
informed of the status of their reported cases.
This strategy has been proven to be very effective in Cuba, which
has one of the lowest crime rates in Latin America. In Cuba
community organisations play a significant role in controlling
criminal activities by generating and sustaining citizen
participation and generating an understanding of the nature of
community crime and helping to form partnerships for community
policing.
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Strategy 5 is the necessity for the police to continuously strive
towards protecting people’s rights and the need for the media to
ensure positive reporting of crime in order to create the desired
paradigm shift in communities.
Strategy 6 entails educating the public about their responsibility
towards crime.
Strategy 7 requires a better balance between the rights of the
accused and the rights of the victims. This may include the
mechanisms to protect victims from reprisals in reporting crimes and
to facilitate testimony in courts.
Strategy 8 is a long-term general change of mind set through school
curricula and special programmes that impart to the youth muchneeded life skills, positive social values and healthy recreational
opportunities.
Strategy 9 is based on the Broken Window Theory which states that an
increase in minor crimes dynamically triggers more severe crimes
without the reverse being true. As far as enforcement is concerned,
tougher enforcement in respect of mild offences not only reduces
minor crimes, but also dynamically deters more severe offences. Put
simply, petty crimes like jaywalking and public urination have to be
tackled very strictly and strongly and the other crimes will start
dropping.
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In conclusion, it should be noted that while South Africa is said to
have one of the highest crime rates in the world, there is an
element of unfairness in this assertion, because South Africa is
usually compared to developed countries as many developing countries
do not keep proper and reliable records of the crimes that are
committed there. Also, the socioeconomic conditions, unemployment
levels and the state’s ability to help those in need are more
favourable in the developed states concentrated mainly in the
northern hemisphere.
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A Mlangeni): Order! Thank you, hon
member, your time has expired. Thank you. Your time has expired,
please.
Mr N B FIHLA: And lastly, Chair, I must emphasise that all of us
should be guided by the Freedom Charter and the Polokwane
resolutions as we walk this route. I thank you. [Time expired.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A Mlangeni): I want to be honoured.
When I say that your time has expired, it means it has expired.
Thank you very much.
Ms S C N SITHOLE: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister and hon Members of
Parliament as well as my beloved intelligence community. I thank God
for allowing me to be alive and well to participate today in the era
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when the African National Congress is in government. I love the ANC.
[Applause.]
I most humbly express my gratitude and that of my organisation to
the dedicated intelligence community of our land. These men and
women work tirelessly under very difficult circumstances to protect
all of us, at times without sufficient recognition and praise
because they work in secret. Today I want to praise them in public.
Long live the intelligence community, long live!
The 2010 Fifa World Cup is finally coming because you kept your eyes
on the ball. You did not listen to the negative publicity of the
prophets of doom. We salute you, may God give you courage and wisdom
to continue working for the security of the government of South
Africa. The ANC supports this budget.
Our founding document, the Freedom Charter, dictates that the people
shall govern. It further entitles all South Africans, black and
white alike, to take part in the administration of the country.
In 1994, as the ANC, we introduced accountability, a word unknown in
the history of South Africa. We did that, because, when we pass this
budget, we will stand equal to the task. We are going to scrutinise
the operation and efficiency of the budget. We will call to account
to the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, JSCI, the
accounting officer, and we expect quarterly reports on time. We
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expect to be taken on board regarding any material occurrence on the
budget of the department before, not after, the occurrence.
We expect financial statements prepared in line with generally
accepted accounting practice and generally recognised accounting
practice for your department and all your parastatals. All that must
happen on time. We do not love historical explanation on material
financial expenditure, because we are always available here to
listen and, if need be, to physically come and verify.
My hon colleague, hon Coetzee, I want to assure you that there is no
secret for us. We have been vetted, we have gone through the
necessary processes and we have the right to know everything, and to
this the JSCI and government shall account.
Finally, I want to advise the hon Minister and the department to cooperate with the Auditor-General because it is in your best
interest. You must answer all the management letters, because the
Auditor-General only needs to understand your circumstances. If you
do that, it’s going to make life easier for yourselves and the
Auditor-General - we are not that interested in reading qualified
reports.
I want us all to remember this. Always remember the importance of
the centrality of Parliament to the process of democracy.
Democratisation is not an event, it is an ongoing process, so it
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will take some time. I want to quote from this book by the InterParliamentary Union of which I am a member, Parliamentary Oversight
of the Security Sector:
The power of the past can and has to be used to ensure the best
use of the allocation in a manner accountable to the public. One
of Parliament’s important mechanisms for controlling the executive
is the budget. From the early days of the first assemblies in
Western Europe, Parliaments demanded a say in policy matters,
their claim being “naught exertion without representation”. It
remains essential that Parliament monitors the use of state’s
scarce resources, both effectively and efficiently.
I want to promise this House that we are equal to the task. We are
going to monitor the expenditure. There is no way, as the ANC, that
we are going to allow abuse of funds. Our President is very clear on
that. He doesn’t want corruption. We have to work in a manner that
shows that we are serious as this country, because it doesn’t matter
how much we desire security; if the money is abused and we have no
resources, we are not going to achieve that goal, and there is no
way we are going to get money elsewhere. We’ve got to live with the
money that we have. We’ve got to make sure that we satisfy the
public that the monies of the state are secure.
I want to assure Mr Coetzee that the only secret is in our committee
room. The secret documents go there. We read there, we write a
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report and we’re not going to mark it secret if they have overspent
the money. We are going to table it in the legislature without the
secret. So accountability will still be there. We need to question
government fearlessly and we are going to do that.
When it comes to matters of security, the party to which you belong
is not important. You need to make sure that your utterances and
what you say in public are in the best interest of the country,
because when South Africa becomes unsafe, it becomes unsafe for all
of us. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr N M KGANYAGO: Chairperson, Ministers, Deputy Ministers and
members present here today, the United Democratic Movement supports
this Budget Vote.
Polokego ya setšhaba e bohlokwa baduding ba naga ye nngwe le ye
nngwe. Se se re gopotša polokego ya batho bao ba tla bego ba
kgobokane nageng ye ya gaborena matšatšinyana a se makae ao a tlago
kua mapatlelong, go lebeletšwe meraloko ya kgwele ya maoto. Ka ge
bonaba, bonokwane le bohlokotsebe di tletše lefaseng, re tshepa gore
Tona ya rena ya tša Tšhireletšo ya Naga o ipeakantše ka botlalo
mabapi le polokego ya mašabašaba a batho ao a tla bego a nyeuma
mapatlelong a dipapadi ka tšhomišano ya dikgoro tše dingwe tša go
swana le ya tša Tšhireletšo le Bagale ba Sešole le ya tša Sephodisa.
Ke kgolwa gore bo tshebi ya dira bao ba lego gona nageng ya gaborena
ba tloga ba hlahlilwe gabotse ka botswerere gore ba dire mošomo wa
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bona wa go kgoboketša ditaba tše bohlokwa tša go šireletša setšhaba
ka botswerere.
Kuranteng ya The Citizen ya lehono go bolelwa ka pomo yeo e
paletšwego ke go thuthupa sefataneng seo se bego se beilwe go
šomišwa bjalo ka molaba wa go bolaya setšhaba sa Amerika – ke gopola
gore le e bone le lena taba ye. Ge ke tsopola kuranta ye e re: ”The
intent behind the terrorist attack was to kill the Americans.”
Go Tona ya tša Tšhireletšo ya Naga le bašomi kgorong ya gagwe, bao
re tshepago gore ba tla dira mošomo wa bona ka tshwanelo, re re ba
dule ba le komana madula a bapile gore dinokwane, ditsotsi le ba
bangwe ba go dira bošula e be bašimanyana go bona.
Ge baeng ba tlile ka gae, ke setlwaedi sa setho go beela diphapano
le dipolelo tša go se re selo ka thoko. [Tšhwahlelo.]
Na le bakgalabje le ba tima nako? [Nako e fedile.] [Legofsi.]
(Translation of Sepedi paragraphs follows.)
[Safety is an important element in each and every country. This
brings up the issue of safety for the people who are to gather in
the stadiums in our country very soon to watch the soccer games. We
believe that the Minister of State Security, with the help of the
Department of Defence and Military Veterans and the Department of
Police, is ready to deal with enmity, roguery and crime – that
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security will be enforced for the people who will be flooding the
soccer stadiums. I believe that the journalists in our country have
been properly trained to do their job competently by collecting
important information with regard to safety.
There is an article in The Citizen today about a car bomb that
failed to explode; it was intended to kill the Americans – I suppose
you saw this article. It read thus and I quote: “The intent behind
the terrorist act was to kill the Americans.”
We trust that the Minister of State Security, together with the
people in his department, will be ready to deal with rogues,
hooligans and any other person who might try to spoil the whole
event.
It is only human to put aside our differences and avoid unnecessary
topics during the period when we are hosting the World Cup.
[Interjections.]
Does time limit also apply to the elderly people? [Time expired.]
[Applause.]]
Ms S T NDABENI: Chairperson, hon Minister Dr Cwele and other
Ministers present, hon Members of Parliament, the director-general,
members of the intelligence community and distinguished guests, as
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the ANC we believe that our budget debate should be premised on our
policies.
We believe there is no budget that takes place in a political and
economic vacuum. It takes place at a time when crime and criminality
have become sophisticated, with wider criminal networks. The Freedom
Charter’s clarion call that “there shall be peace and friendship” is
relevant at our political juncture, for our hopes and the
realisation of our achievements.
Indeed, we have achieved peace in the last 16 years. We need to
deepen such peace and friendship among ourselves in our nation and
with all nations. We must ensure peaceful conditions during this
forthcoming 2010 Fifa Soccer World Cup.
Peace and stability is one of the priorities of the state security
and intelligence community. Equally, it is the priority of the ANC.
In this regard we need to improve the co-ordination and use of
intelligence. This budget needs to strengthen all intelligence
structures as part of the state security apparatus in the prevention
of crime and criminality. Intelligence capability needs to be
improved across the peace and stability cluster to ensure better
investigations, prosecutions and prevention of cybercrime, in
particular. Networking with other law enforcement agencies should be
enhanced.
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In the context of investigating and prosecuting organised crime, it
is important that different law enforcement agencies network in
terms of jurisdictions and across government. This would involve
formal and informal networks based on targeting specific types of
crime and their prevalence. This has to be a diverse process due to
the diverse nature of cases and their circumstances.
Consequently, our restructuring and capacity-building must develop
effective and efficient intelligence architecture, improve the
quality of intelligence products and build a professional civilian
intelligence service. This will require that both the National
Communications Centre and other services invest more in their
technical capacities.
The SA National Academy of Intelligence is crucial in terms of the
kind of training it offers to the intelligence community. There is a
need for both cadet and advanced operational training. This
restructuring must enhance output for the academy. It should not
impact negatively on the training offered by the academy; it should
rather bring the best human skills to the fore. No doubt, capacitybuilding and restructuring require more resources to effect the
required changes.
The Minister, Dr Cwele, last year informed this House that they will
open up their recruitment processes and inject new blood into their
workforce. His department will tap into the best of South Africa’s
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brains, ensuring that their expertise is used to reinforce the
department’s knowledge of strategic fields. This commitment is
important if the State Security Agency is to succeed in this process
of renewal after 16 years.
We all know that intelligence is a sensitive area and that it
demands a deep level of patriotism, hence the prerequisite that only
South Africans can join our intelligence services. The implications
of this for capacity-building are enormous in that, for the
requisite expert human capital, the State Security Agency can only
depend on the limited South African skills market. It would be
commendable therefore to come up with a plan to not only attract the
best brains in South Africa, but also to encourage the development
of this scarce resource, particularly in the area of research and
analysis. It needs to look at ways of mobilising our young people
into the intelligence profession, with a sensitivity towards and
representation of our people in terms of race, gender and
disability.
The ANC manifesto identifies five priorities. I will only mention
those that are relevant to the cluster: All people in South Africa
are to feel and be safe. This will be achieved by building a skilled
and capable workforce that can support an inclusive growth path.
The intelligence services’ best mechanism to support government in
implementing these priorities is through strengthening its capacity.
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The ANC is committed to the building of a well-resourced
intelligence capacity of motivated, loyal and professional officers.
We are committed to a career path and a human capital utilisation
programme built into it.
This budget must talk to a better-organised State Security Agency
with the requisite capacity to deal proactively with matters that
pose a threat to the peace and security of the country. It should
therefore enhance the integrity of state information and promote
anticrime preventive measures to ensure that sensitive state
information is managed and protected from theft and manipulation.
Furthermore, through this budget we must strengthen the protection
of information from cyber attacks, unauthorised disclosure, corrupt
officials, criminal syndicates and foreign information pedlars. This
includes the establishment of early warning systems to monitor and
identify risks in national infrastructure. Above all, so as to
elicit maximum co-operation and support from communities, we must
continue with the promotion of the awareness of the role of
intelligence.
The management and security surrounding the border environment
impact on the territorial integrity of our Republic. We were
therefore comforted by the declaration of our President, Jacob Zuma,
during his state of the nation address, that plans were under way
regarding the establishment of a border management agency. We are
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therefore pleased to hear that intelligence is leading the
interdepartmental work to ensure that the agency is realised this
year.
We indeed urge our Minister to ensure that his department continues
to work with the Department of Home Affairs, the SA Police Service
and the Department of Defence and Military Veterans to ensure that
our borders are secured.
There is an urgent need for the clarification of the mandate of the
border management agency, with a special focus on stakeholder roles.
This will assist all operatives to perform their duties with
enthusiasm and efficiency.
Our recent oversight as the Defence and Military Veterans’ portfolio
committee revealed serious challenges around the lack of capacity to
secure our borders. The situation can be exploited by all criminal
elements due to movements of people in and out. Our Constitution is
very clear about the role of state security services to ensure
national security.
In conclusion, in the context of building a developmental state, the
state security apparatus needs to be strengthened for conditions
which favour the overarching role of the state to lead development
for a better life for all.
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This task calls for intelligence agencies to be capacitated with
relevant infrastructure and human resources. It calls for
intelligence networks to be strengthened in relation to other law
enforcement agencies in a co-ordinated manner.
Peace cannot be achieved through violence. It can only be attained
through understanding. Let us therefore not be crybabies, but rather
understand the challenges that this department and country face.
Without a doubt, our available resources must be used appropriately
to accomplish this task and overcome these challenges. As the ANC we
support the Budget Vote. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr P J GROENEWALD: Chairperson, hon Minister, I always say that I am
privileged in the sense that I am not a member of the portfolio
committee or the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence. The
benefit of that is that I can speak freely. I don’t have to keep
everything a secret and so, if I am frank about this, hon Minister,
please take it in that sense.
Voorsitter, die agb Burgess was korrek toe hy gesê het dat die mense
wat by intelligensie werk, mense is wat agter die skerms werk. Ons
sien nie altyd hulle harde werk nie. Ons weet nie altyd wat hulle
doen nie en, van die kant van die VF Plus, sê ons dankie vir daardie
werk. Ek dink ook jy moet ’n sekere soort persoonlikhheid hê om so
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te kan werk en jou beste te lewer in diens van ’n land waar daar nie
altyd waardering is nie.
Maar ek wil ook aan die agb Minister sê – en ek kom nou net van die
debat van die Minister van Justisie en Grondwetlike Ontwikkeling af,
ons het môre die debat van die Minister van Polisie en ons het
vandag u debat - al hierdie verskillende departemente praat van
misdaadbestryding en hoe ons misdaad in Suid-Afrika gaan vasvat,
maar die werklikheid in Suid-Afrika is dat daar te veel mense is wat
slagoffers, veral van geweldsmisdade, is.
Ek wil vir die agb Minister sê dat daar meer aandag gegee moet word
aan die invoer van onwettige vuurwapens. Die agb Minister van
Polisie is baie vinnig om die wettige vuurwapeneienaars te beskuldig
dat hulle nou die oorsaak van misdaad in Suid-Afrika is. Dis waarom
hy hulle wapens wil vat. Maar dit gaan hier oor die onwettige
vuurwapens wat deur sindikate oor ons grense in die land ingevoer
word.
Agb Minister, ek weet ek kan met ’n bottel brandewyn ’n AK-47 kry.
Dis nogal ’n redelike goedkoop een waarvoor jy nie ’n baie duur
brandewyn hoef te vat nie. Dit is die werklikheid, en as ons gaan
kyk ... [Tussenwerpsels.] Ja, ek drink eintlik whisky, nie brandewyn
nie; jy is reg!
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Maar wat ek eintlik wil sê, is dit: As ’n mens gaan kyk na die
wreedheid van veral aanvalle — nie net transito-aanvalle nie — word
dit ook nou in baie ander aanvalle gebruik. Outomatiese wapens, wat
nie in besit van private mense was nie, word gebruik, en dit wek
kommer.
Die ander aspek is dié van dwelms. Ja ek weet, u sê ook, as
Minister, dat daar indringend daarna gekyk word, maar ek wil ook vir
u sê dat dit kommerwekkend is as ’n mens op televisie en in
nuusblaaie in die buiteland moet sien dat Suid-Afrika as die mekka
van dwelmhandel beskou word. Dit is ’n groot probleem. Dis ’n
persepsie wat reggestel moet word. ’n Mens kan dit verstaan dat, as
jou vorige hoof van Polisie, die kommissaris, teregstaan op
aanklagte dat hy korrupsie gepleeg het met die dwelmbase van SuidAfrika ... [Tyd verstreke.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs
follows.)
[Chairperson, the hon Burgess was correct in saying that individuals
working for intelligence services are working behind the scenes. We
do not always see their hard work. We do not always know what they
are up to, and the FF Plus would like to thank them for that. I also
think that one needs to have a certain personality to work like
that, to deliver one’s best in the service to one’s country, where
appreciation is seldom forthcoming.
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But I would also like to mention to the hon Minister that – and I’ve
just returned from the debate of the Minister of Justice and
Constitutional Development, tomorrow we will be having the debate of
the Minister of Police and today, we are having your debate – all
these various departments are speaking about the combating of crime
and how we intend addressing crime in South Africa, but the reality
in South Africa is that we have far too many victims, especially of
violent crimes.
I want to say to the hon Minister that the importation of illegal
firearms requires urgent attention. The hon Minister of Police is
very quick to accuse legal firearm owners as being the cause of
crime in South Africa. That is the reason why he wants to confiscate
their weapons. But we are dealing here with illegal firearms that
syndicates are importing into our country via our borders.
Hon Minister, I know that I can get an AK-47 for a bottle of brandy;
and a fairly cheap one at that. You do not even need a very
expensive brandy. That is the reality. And when one looks at ...
[Interjections.] Yes, I do actually drink whisky, not brandy; you
are correct!
What I really want to say is, when one looks at the cruelty of the
attacks – not only at in-transit attacks – this is now being used in
many other attacks as well. Automatic weapons which are not owned by
private individuals are being used, and this is of concern.
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Then there is the drug problem. Yes, I know, Minister, you also
mentioned that this ought to have an in-depth investigation, but I
would like to say that it is disturbing when one is out of the
country and one sees on television and reads in newspapers that
South Africa is regarded as a haven for drug smuggling. That is a
big problem. It is a perception that should be rectified. One can
understand that, when one’s former head of Police, the commissioner,
is on trial for corruption involving drug lords of South Africa ...
[Time expired.]]
Mr L T LANDERS: Chairperson, in his book titled A man called
Intrepid, Sir William Stephenson addresses the issue of national
security in the following manner:
Among the increasingly intricate arsenals across the world,
intelligence is an essential weapon, perhaps the most important.
But it is, being secret, the most dangerous. Safeguards to prevent
its abuse must be devised, revised and rigidly applied. But, as in
all enterprises, the character and wisdom of those to whom it is
entrusted will be decisive. In the integrity of that guardianship
lies the hope of free people to endure and prevail.
This quotation, read with section 198 of our Constitution, in
essence typifies what we are about. It also explains why we are here
today. Our role in this Parliament is to ensure that the South
African taxpayer receives value for money from our intelligence
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services and agencies, whilst at the same time we must ensure that
the enormous power placed in their hands is not abused.
Like others who spoke before me today I take this opportunity to pay
tribute to all men and women of our intelligence services who strive
to ensure that we can all sleep peacefully without fear of threat.
They do so unheralded, unsung and usually unknown.
The hon Minister in his speech today said that 16 years into our
democracy the White Paper on Intelligence needs to be reviewed. Hon
Minister, this announcement is opportune and most welcome. It brings
me to the point that I want to make in my speech today. Much has
been written and commented on around what is called the Ministerial
Review Commission. As a committee we have not really had an
opportunity or a platform to give our side of the story around this
commission’s report until now.
First, as a brief background, it was made clear to the committee
that the commission was an initiative of the executive or Cabinet.
Despite our scepticism and a fair amount of concern, the committee
opted not to object to it or to oppose it. When the commission
finally completed its work, as parliamentarians, we all expected a
report that would follow the normal conventional processes,
including its tabling in Parliament.
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Instead, the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence was astonished
to learn that copies of this report had been made available to
certain media houses. The Joint Standing Committee on
Intelligence’s, JSCI, astonishment quickly turned into
disappointment when certain members of the media, the former
Minister of Intelligence, Mr Ronnie Kasrils, and a member of the
commission, Prof Laurie Nathan, accused the JSCI of not fulfilling
its duties, for not considering the report and for not carrying out
its recommendation. This is a perfect example of how not to deal
with an official inquiry of this nature.
However, noble and well-intentioned as its goals and objectives may
have been - and hon Minister, we trust that you have taken note of
this - you cannot demand that a parliamentary committee consider and
implement the recommendations of the report that was tabled at the
Mail and Guardian. The reason is that you show absolute distrust and
disrespect for people who have been elected to carry out the work. I
find it offensive that, whilst you completely ignored the laid-down
processes and procedures and failed or refused to formally place
this report before the joint standing committee, you then publicly
criticised us for not considering the report. The hon Maynier seems
to find that favourable.
We have also been reliably informed that aspects of this report that
was leaked to the media were still classified. Now the hon Maynier
has no problem with that. If this is true, and we have no reason to
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doubt the veracity of this information, it places the authors of
this report in an extremely invidious situation.
Chairperson, let me address some of the issues raised by hon
Coetzee. Very early in my membership of the ANC I was approached by
Cyril Ramaphosa and he had this to say to me, “You are very
effective in raising and highlighting problems, but you are very
ineffective in putting forward solutions”. Listening very carefully
to hon Coetzee, very few, if any, solutions came from his speech
except, perhaps, if I understand him correctly, that everything
should been drawn over. There should be no secrets. One is tempted
to believe that there should be no intelligence services in South
Africa.
Now, a very important point for hon Coetzee to remember is that the
rights contained in our Constitution, which were fought for by the
likes of Nelson Mandela, Walter Sisulu and O R Tambo, are not
absolute. National legislation referred to by the hon Coetzee
already exists in section 32 of our Constitution. That legislation
is called the Promotion of Access to Information Act, and it was
signed into law on 2 February 2000.
The integrity of South Africa’s system of identity documents is
crucial to our national security. Anything that negatively affects
or impacts on the system constitutes a threat to our national
security. It is with in this in mind that for some years now we have
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posed the following question to the Minister of Intelligence and to
the heads of our intelligence services: Does the Department of Home
Affairs constitute a threat to South Africa’s national security?
Thus far, the answer to that question has been “No”, notwithstanding
the endemic corruption and bribery within that department.
It was encouraging, therefore, to see the hon Minister of Home
Affairs, Dr Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma, concede on national television
that the Department of Home Affairs has indeed become a threat to
national security. One is even more heartened and encouraged by the
steps she has taken to address the widespread corruption within her
department. The hon Minister deserves nothing but praise for her
efforts in this regard. [Applause.]
I say this, Chairperson, for the following reasons: It is common
knowledge that two foreign nationals in the not too distant past
entered South Africa illegally. They then proceeded directly to an
official at the Department of Home Affairs who had been identified
by them and obtained South African identity documents in exchange
for cash. With those documents they applied for visas and travelled
to Britain. On arrival in Britain those two nationals were detained
by British authorities.
The upshot of it is that the British authorities place very
stringent conditions on South Africans travelling to Britain, and
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quite rightly so. I admit that the British have every right to do
that. The South African system had been seriously compromised.
Now, in the not too distant past we learnt from the media that two
senior members of Hamas were assassinated. Later it transpired that
the assassinations were carried out by members of Israel’s Mossad.
It then later transpired that those two members of Mossad had
obtained British travel and identity documents and indeed had landed
on South African shores.
We had a situation where his Excellency the British Ambassador to
South Africa appeared on television contextualising the decision by
Britain to impose the strict condition that they had on South
Africans travelling to that country. Would it be fair for us to
expect him to do the same now that they formally handed British
identity documents and travel documents to members of Mossad who
travelled via South Africa because they were being pursued by
international law enforcement agencies?
I leave that to you to answer. I have my own views on the matter.
Perhaps hon Coetzee will now begin to understand why we have
intelligence services. However, it brings into focus the good work
the honourable women and men of our intelligence services carry out
on a daily basis. Thank you. [Applause.]
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The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Chairperson, let me begin by
thanking all the members for the positive contribution they’ve made.
I hope that your inputs today have instilled the sense of confidence
in our citizens that we have to unite when dealing with these
matters of national security.
Chairperson, I don’t have enough time, but I’ll make an attempt to
deal with some of the specific questions which have been raised. The
first one is about financial controls and accountability. I just
want to reassure members that we still remain very committed to
account to Parliament. We see the value of accounting to Parliament;
we see the value of interacting with the inspector-general and the
Auditor-General because it is only through these institutions that
we can identify our gaps and improve our capabilities as the
intelligence community.
Some members have spoken about our private company called Comsec,
formally Electronic Communications Security (Pty) Ltd. It is true and we have reported this to the Joint Standing Committee on
Intelligence, JSCI, and that there are challenges within this
company. It is a company that is supposed to be a private company
but operating within the public sector of the intelligence
community. There were challenges right from its birth so the fault
doesn’t only lie with those who are managing it. It is in this
respect that we undertook to restructure the intelligence community
to streamline these components and entities.
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In this regard, it is true that we have been working very closely
with the Auditor-General and there are still problems. Last year, we
did ask the board – because it is a private company – to do a windup report. Then it could be presented and we would be able to wind
up the company, because the National Treasury did allow us to wind
up the company so that it can become a branch of the State Security
Agency. It is my intention, in the next few days, to dissolve the
Comsec Board because it has failed to give that report for over six
months, now. We will move with speed to incorporate the concept back
into the State Security Agency so that it can start putting the
measures in place.
On the 2008 Ministerial Review Commission Report — Mr Landers has
adequately dealt with the matter — I would also like to emphasise
that, as government, we considered this matter. Some of the issues
which were contained in that report are part of the review which we
are already undertaking. The difficulty is that the report didn’t
follow the normal procedures. It didn’t finalise these processes in
the Cabinet; it was not approved by the Cabinet, but while the
Cabinet was still considering the report it was leaked to the media
and it was there. There was no way that the Cabinet could endorse
such processes, because that is undermining all processes and the
procedures of Parliament. In short, while that report may have some
of the important issues that we are incorporating in our own
restructuring, it has no official status in government. Therefore,
we will not table that report in Parliament.
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Chairperson, I want to comment on the killing of farmers – I’m sure
Nyambose will also be able to deal with this matter at length
tomorrow. There is no evidence that the killing of farmers
predominantly emanates from illegal arms which come from outside the
country. Most of the criminal syndicates who operate may include
people who may be foreign nationals and have South Africans as their
leaders. It is our own citizens who lead these syndicates that
commit these crimes.
I think the issue of reducing firearms in the community in general
and removing illegal firearms is the project which we fully support
as government. In this regard, Minister Mthethwa did extend amnesty
– I think it just expired – to all the citizens who do not need
these weapons. When they come and rob you in your house, the first
thing they look for is your safe and your gun; and that is how these
legal guns are being converted into illegal firearms.
One of the members commented on the killing of farmers. Our plea is
that we should not politicise this killing of farmers. Killing of
farmers is a criminal matter and it must be dealt with as a rule of
law matter. It is very important, because we have seen this with the
recent killing of the leader of the Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging,
AWB, where some of the members of the community were trying to
politicise this matter or even claiming that some liberation song
contributed to such killing. We have not seen that evidence. I think
it is important, because the whole world was looking at this matter
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and were very happy about the way this government has dealt with the
matter as a rule of law.
In this regard, even President Obama recently praised President Zuma
saying that they have full confidence now in South Africa since we
have shown that we can deal with the challenges through the manner
in which we dealt with this killing. In short, we call upon all
political leaders to condemn such killings; for the donor sisters as
a nation to move forward; and for the donor sisters in ensuring that
there is this cohesion, because it’s through this unity that we can
assure that everyone prospers in South Africa.
To clarify some mandates in respect of the border management agency,
we will come back to Parliament once the process has gone through
the process of government authorisation. As we have said, we have
finished the feasibility study; the task team led by the directorsgeneral has done its work; and that feasibility study is now
undergoing scrutiny by the Department of Public Service and
Administration and the National Treasury so that when we form it, we
will ensure that the correct level of personnel to do these
functions are clarified and the budget is available for it to
operate.
As we said, we are not waiting for the actual formation of this
border management agency, but we are taking steps to ensure that we
close all these gaps. That is why we are busy trying to increase the
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capacity of the existing or current border co-ordinating committee
in order to reduce any vulnerabilities as we move towards the 2010
Fifa World Cup.
We are working very closely with the Minister of Home Affairs, Dr
Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma, on the identity documents, ID, fraud matter.
We believe that through the programmes she has put in place and by
working with the whole security cluster, we will be able to overcome
this problem. The Minister has urged us as Members of Parliament and
the community to bear in mind that, in general, one of the weakest
points in ID fraud scenario is that we allow the late registration
of births where people as old as I am come and apply for a birth
certificate. Once you get a birth certificate, you get access to all
our documents. We hope that the members will spread this message,
because it is very common that you get people from our neighbouring
countries claiming — without even having any African origin — that
they were born in these neighbouring countries and then claiming
these documents.
We are not just limiting ourselves to IDs or improving the integrity
of the identity documents; this year we will move to other critical
databases, whether in transport or economic departments, to ensure
that they also have integrity, because, if not, that may have
negative consequences on our own economic development and progress.
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Lastly, on the issue of the 2010 Fifa World Cup, we would like to
give the reassurance that, as of today, we have been working with
all security agencies around the world. We have been asking them if
there was anything they heard elsewhere which might become a threat
to this tournament; none of them have said that there is a specific
threat.
As we have said, we are not lowering our guard, but will continue to
co-operate. We have a plan - General Cele has put this plan to the
world and everyone has accepted it. We are working around that plan,
but we also have a plan through our national disaster plan in case
of any disaster which might happen during the event so that we would
not be found wanting in that respect.
Some members have complained that the figures about tourism seem to
be declining. But all of us know that the effect of global recession
has had a significant impact not only on South Africa, but around
the world. People are losing jobs; people have very little
disposable income. But, despite that, as we go around the country
and the world, we see a lot of enthusiasm in respect of people who
want to come and witness this world event in South Africa. So, we
will welcome them on 11 June and we hope that every South African
will contribute in ensuring that this event is enjoyable and
memorable. Thank you very much, Chairperson. [Applause.]
EPC 5 MAY 2010
PAGE: 73 of 73
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A Mlangeni): Members are reminded that
the Extended Public Committee, EPC, on Public Works will meet in
Committee Room E249 at 16:30 today. That is in here; you simply have
to stretch your feet and backs.
Debate concluded.
The Committee rose at 16:03.