Narrator:
Tape number:
Date of interview:
Place of interview:
Interviewer:
For:
Code:
Mr. Vahram Aloyan
February 5, 1980
8807 Avis Street
Detroit, Michigan
E. Aprahamian
Armenian Assembly Oral History Project
Al: Aloyan; Ap: Aprahamian
Ap:
My name is E. Aprahamian. The interviewee's name is Vahram Aloyan. He was born in
Keghi in 1906. Today's date is Tuesday, February 5, 1980. The location of the interview
is Mr. Aloyan's home in Detroit, Michigan.
Ap:
Mr. Aloyan, what are your earliest memories of your homelife in Keghi, when you were a
child? Remember the house?
Al:
Yes, I remember our house, and where we had our last dinner. We ate the chicken we
raised at home. At fight, we were deported from our homes; the entire village. The Turks
gathered us with other villages and make us walk for three days.
At:
Can you describe your home? Do you remember the rooms and how many there were?
Al:
Yes, we had four rooms and another room where we baked cooked the food. There were
three brothers there, my father and two uncles on my father's side. I remember them all.
We were five brothers. One of my uncles had a boy and a girl. The other uncle had one
girl. One of my uncles came to the United States. We all stayed together.
Ap:
Why?
Al:
It was a custom, since my grandparents were alive, we had to stay together. When my
grandfather died, my grandmother became the head of the house. Whoever was the oldest
in the house controlled the family. I had 4 brother. We were together until deportation.
Ap:
Was your house big?
A1:
It was a new house. It was a large and attractive one.
Ap:
Was the house in the village?
A1:
Yes, it was in the village and at the edge of a gorge. My father used to paint designs on
clothing and sell it to the nearby Kurds. At the same time he was a farmer. We planted
wheat.
Ap:
Did you have a vineyard?
Al:
No, just wheat. There were no vineyards because it's very cold in that area.
Ap:
Can you describe your village?
Al:
Keghi is a mountainous area. It has very good weather. The winter is very cold and snows
a lot. There were many orchards.
Ap:
Was Keghi a large village?
A1:
There were only 200 families, I would say approximately ten to fifteen thousand people.
Ap:
Were all the people Armenians?
A1:
Yes, they were. There was a Turkish area outside of our village with about 20 Turkish
families.
Ap:
Do you remember your parents' names?
Al:
My father's name wan Karekin and my mother's name was Aghavni. My uncles' names
were Vahan and Sarkis, who went to the United States one year before the massacres. My
grandfather's name was Kaspar and my grandmother’s name was Markirid. My brothers’
names were Markar, Hovhaness, Souren, and Aram.
Ap:
Did the whole family do the same kind of work or did they have different occupations?
Al:
My mother used to draw designs and my father painted them. One of my uncles was a
gunsmith. His wife did household chores. Farming was done only for a few months in the
year.
Ap:
What did the other villagers do?
Al:
They were in various trades needed in the village.
Ap:
Was your village close to a large city?
A1:
It was a three hour walking distance from the city of Keghi.
Ap:
Do you remember the city?
Al:
I saw it after our deportation.
Ap:
Do you remember the holidays, like Christmas and Easter?
Al:
Yes, I remember. We used to go to church, that's all. We had church twice a day,
morning and night.
Ap:
Did the whole family go to church?
A1:
Yes, the whole family used to go. During Lent, we used to hang a large onion from the
ceiling. Each day a father would be placed on it until the forty days were up. During Lent
we would not eat any animal products.
Ap:
Did you go to school there?
Al:
I did until I was nine. I barely learned the alphabet. After that I did not have time to go to
school.
Ap:
Do you remember anything about your village?
Al:
Our village was at the foothills of a mountain. There was a road up the mountain which
lead to a "Vahnk" called "St. Asdvadzadzin." Every Christmas and Easter there would be
high mass at the Vahnk, the people used to go then. There was a fountain at the base of
the mountain and the villagers used its cool water for their needs. The air was fresh and
the scenery beautiful. (Note: Starting from ft. 157-161 not clear.)
Ap:
Before the massacres started, did your family know, did they have any idea that things
were getting bad? Or did it just come suddenly?
A1:
I don't remember. They knew something was happening. I remember, one night we got
up and ran away to the home of a Kurdish friend and stayed there for two days. I don't
know what happened, it seemed that someone had informed the authorities and the Kurds
brought us back. The next day we were deported.
Ap:
How old were you then?
A1:
I was nine years old.
Ap:
What do you remember happening the first day of the massacres?
Al:
I remember, we slaughtered the chickens in the house and ate them the night before. We
placed some of our household things on the oxen and left. After three days of walking we
came to a gorge where there was water. The next morning the Turkish gendarmes told us
to give them our money so that they would protect us from the Kurds who were going to
kill us. Whoever had money gave. Afterwards, the Kurds attacked us. I remember my
uncle standing by the water and killed two Kurds with stones.
Ap:
How old was your uncle?
A1:
He was about thirty years old. The people were in a panic and ran from the Kurds. So did
I. When I was running through the forest, I saw my father also running with someone. I
called him and ran towards him. He picked me up and carried me on his back. We hid in
the forest for two days without food nor water. There were six of us. There was another
boy my age. They told us to go to the edge of the forest and see what was out there.
When we went, the gendarmes saw us and called after us, but we ran away to our parents.
The gendarmes followed us to our parents. When they got there they killed the adults.
They took us (children) to some nearby village and kept us in a stable overnight. Next
morning they mixed us with the refugees from the Van region and sent us towards the
deserts. After a few days of walking, I ran away and went back to our village. There was
a Turk there by the name of Mahmed, who was a good friend of my uncle. He took me to
his house for a few days after which he sent me to the Kurdish people. I stayed there until
the Russians came. When the Russians came the Kurds ran away. I stayed and used to
beg for a living. I noticed that some of the Russian soldiers were speaking Armenian.
They were asking each other where the Kurds were. I told them that the Kurds had run
away. A few days later, I ran away with the Kurds until we reached Kharpert.
Ap:
How many days did it take you to get to Kharpert?
A1:
I don't remember. But I remember begging in the villages.
Ap:
Were you alone?
Al:
I was with the Kurds. They didn't give me anything. I went to a house to beg for some
bread. There was nobody in it, so I stole some salt. Later, I exchanged it for bread. One
day, I was in a stable. I stole some bread from the Kurds. They used to hide the bread
under their beds. When I stole the bread, the lady saw me. She started yelling that the
Giaour escaped. They caught me and tied me. The man was going to kill me but the
woman told him not to kill me there. When they went to sleep, I worked myself loose and
escaped. When I opened the door, they woke up and came after me. This time, instead of
running out, I ran back into the dark stable and hid. When they went out looking for me,
then I escaped from the sable. I reached Kharpert in this manner. Like an animal, I used
to sleep in the forest at daytime, and at night I would go out and look for food. I came to
Kharpert and used to beg in bazaars. One day when I was picking the left-over
mulberries from a basket belonging to a Turk, someone kicked me and asked me if I
wanted to be a servant. I told him that I would. He took me to his village I must have
been about 10 years old by this time.
Ap:
Was this in 1914?
Al:
Yes, in 1914 (sic). The Turk had a child. The woman's face was covered according to
Moslem customs. She was breast feeding her child. She stopped and bread fed me also so
that I would be considered like her child. I stayed with them for three years. In Kharpert,
the weather is milder. Cotton grows there. One day we took some cotton to the mill.
While I was separating the seeds from the fiber, my master was talking to the owner of
the mill. Suddenly, the owner asked me where I was from. I answered that that man was
my father so he should be asked. He said that I was an Armenian and not the man's son.
The Turk for whom I worked told me to say where I was from. Encouraged, I did saving
that I was from Keghi and gave the name of my parents. It turned out that the owner of
the mill knew my brother in Kharpert. A week later my brother came and took me to
Kharpert and put me in the Armenian orphanage.
AP:
How old was your brother?
A1:
He was four years older than me, so he must have been 15 years old. We stayed at the
orphanage until 1920 when they took us to Beirut, then to Greece.
Ap:
Going back to the beginning or the first day of the deportation, was it only your family,
or were there other villagers too?
A1:
They deported the whole village?
Ap:
When you saw your brother, did you see anybody else that you knew?
A1:
I just met my one brother; my older brother was in Europe for his education. When the
war had started he went to the Unites States. As I mentioned earlier, it was the Turk,
Mahmed, who saved me and my younger brother by taking us to the Kurds. However, my
younger brother, who was about six years old at that time, starved to death. My older
brother used to go out at night to get us food to eat. One day he left and did not come
back. I also found my mother in Kharpert. After we left Kharpert on the way to Lebanon,
my mother and brother had stayed in Aleppo. From Lebanon, I was taken to Istanbul
before going to Greece. My mother and brother had gone to America from Aleppo. When
later I came to America, I saw my brother, but my mother had died.
Ap:
During 1914-1915 when you were going through the massacres, did you see what was
happening to other Armenians, or were you too busy trying to stay alive yourself?
A1:
Yes, I saw the massacres and how the Armenians were being slaughtered. The killings
were with knives, not much with guns because they were expensive. They used to kill the
women and children with wooden clubs. One night I saw dead bodies piled up as high as
a house. They poured flammable liquid on them and burned them. That was a usual
practice. I saw them cut up the womb of a pregnant woman and take out the unborn baby
and kill it. I have seen how the Turks used to rape a the young girls, then throw them in
the rivers. I have seen all that. It would have been better not to see those things. The
Turks who shot my father turned around to shoot me. At that moment one of the
gendarmes told him why should be kill a young boy and urged him to let me go. He did
me a favor, then putting me on his horse, took me to the village. This means that not all
the Turks are the same. That much I know that a Turk did a humanitarian deed for me. I
was sitting on my father's lap when they shot him in the back. When he was shot, he
called out "Oh, mother, they shot me." The Turks took off his clothes and threw his body
down the hill. They take me with them to the village. From there I ran away too.
Ap:
Is there anything else that you saw, which describes the acts of the Turks?
Al:
I didn't see many Turks after that. When I stayed with that Turkish family as a servant, it
was very good for me. I used to work and keep their cattle.
Ap:
Do you speak Turkish well?
A1:
Yes, I had no choice. I've known the language for 65 years I learned Turkish in two years
without going to school, but I have been in the United States for 22 years and still cannot
speak English well.
Ap:
Do you remember the orphanage in Kharpert?
Al:
Yes. The orphanage was next to the Armenian prelacy. There was a separate building for
the girls. Those who were old enough, used to go and work. The younger ones played all
day. There was no school at the orphanage. It was supported by the donations of some
well-to-do Armenians. When later we went to Greece, we were put up in the homes of
Greek families so that we could learn agriculture. The thinking was that when the
Armenian Republic reestablished, we would go there. When that did not materialize, I
went to France.
How old were you when you went to Istanbul and where did you stay?
Ap:
Al:
It was in 1921 and I was 15 years old. I stayed in the orphanage of Beshigtash. They took
us to Istanbul so that from there they would take us to Armenia, but that did not happen
because the Republic fell to the Communists.
Ap:
How long did you stay in Greece?
Al:
I stayed there for about 2, 1/2 years, after which I tent to France in 1924. In France I lived
in Marseilles. I worked for a contractor building and traveled wherever my job took me.
In 1929, I met my future wife and got married. My wife is also from Keghi. She too was
in the same orphanage. I remember my wife's father had been shot during the
deportations. Wounded, he was running around, calling for his son, Ara. My father took
the man's belt and tied his wound, but he kept running and calling for his son.
Ap:
What was the name of your wife's family?
Al:
Her family name is Der Vartanian.
Ap:
Do you remember her family?
A1:
Yes, her father was teacher, and used to go to other villages to teach. They had two boys
and two girls. Her father knew six languages and was educated in Switzerland. (Note:
from ft. 134-174 is the wife's story. After the war, Armenians came and collected the
children from Turkish homes. The prelate in Kharpert had been a schoolmate of the
governor. Because of that, the governor did many favors for the Armenians. One day, a
Turk raped a girl right in the street. The prelate brought this man into the prelacy and beat
him without fear.)
Ap:
How long did you live in France?
Al:
Until 1957 when I came to the U.S.
Ap:
What made you decide to come to the U.S.?
A1:
My mother and two brothers had been here. In 1949 my mother wanted me to send my
daughter to the U.S. to see her. I sent here to my mother. When my mother died, my
daughter went to Detroit and stayed in the U.S. In 1951 my son also came to the U.S.
Since both of our children were in the U.S., we decided to go too.
Ap:
Where did you meet each other?
Al:
We used to know each other in Greece. Then in France, my wife's brother and I stayed
together. When the two sisters came to France, we all lived together and met in this way.
Ap:
How old are your children?
A1:
My daughters are 49
Ap:
What is her name?
Al:
_______ Stepanian. She is marred.
Ap:
Has she a children?
Al:
Yes, daughter. Her name is Nicole. and 37 and my son is 46 years old.
Ap:
Do your daughter speak Armenian?
Al:
Yes, she writ and speak Armenian, French, English. My other daughter is 37. Her name
is Ida. She has a three sons. And my son is 46 years old. He has a two sons.
Ap:
Do your grandchildren speak Armenian?
A1:
My son's children don't. He is married to a non-Armenian. My daughter's children do and
attend St. Sarkis Armenian School. They both are married to Armenians.
Ap:
Do you read Armenian newspapers?
Al:
Yes, the HAIRENIK DAILY.
Ap:
Do you belong to Armenian organizations?
A1:
We belong to the St. Sarkis church. I used to belong to the Armenian Revolutionary
Federation.
Ap:
When someone listens to this tape in the future, is there something you would like to say
to future generations about what happened to you and the future Armenians?
A1:
I would like to say that they should remain Armenians, marry with Armenians and be
proud that they are Armenians. We must not forget our nation so that we will not
assimilate. We are just as good or better than any nation. It's not important that they don't
know Armenian, as long as they stay Armenian.
Ap:
Do you think that eventually the Armenians in America will be absorbed and forget they
are Armenian?
Al:
I hope not. I think that the new generations are more aware and educated in
Armenianism. If only half remain Armenian, we can have many valuable people. I don't
think the Armenians will every completely be lost. The older generation is Armenian in
every way, but generally are not educated in Armenianism. The never generation is more
educated and aware of their Armenianism.
Ap:
Did you fight in World War II?
A1:
I was a soldier in France. When I came to France from Greece, I had an Armenian
passport. When the Republic fell, we became political refugees. In 1938, when Germany
started the war, I was called into the service, even though I wasn't a citizen. After the war,
I became a citizen.
Ap:
Did you see combat?
Al:
Yes, I was in the front lines.
Ap:
When you came to the U.S. did you work?
A1:
When I came to the U.S., I was 52 years old. I went to the Carpenters' Union for
membership. They told me that I was too old to guarantee a job. I had to pay them $300
to become a member without a guaranteed job. So, I went to work in a restaurant. In six
months, I became second cook. I retired after eleven years.
Ap:
It is an interesting life, if anything. I am going to stop this.
END OF INTERVIEW