Military Police Complaints Commission
FYNES PUBLIC INTEREST HEARINGS
held pursuant to section 250.38(1) of the National Defence
Act, in the matter of file 2011-004
LES AUDIENCES D'INTÉRÊT PUBLIQUE SURE FYNES
tenues en vertu du paragraphe 250.38(1) de la Loi sure la
défense nationale pour le dossier 2011-004
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
held at 270 Albert St., Ottawa, Ontario
on Tuesday, May 15, 2012
mardi le 15 mai 2012
VOLUME 22
BEFORE:
Mr. Glenn Stannard
Chairperson
Ms Raymonde Cléroux
Registrar
APPEARANCES:
Ms. Dana Cernacek
Ms Beth Alexander
Mr. Rob Fairchild
Commission counsel
Ms Korinda McLaine
For Sgt Jon Bigelow, MWO Ross Tourout,
LCol Gilles Sansterre, WO Blair Hart, PO 2 Eric McLaughlin,
Sgt David Mitchell, Sgt Matthew Alan Ritco, Maj Daniel Dandurand,
Sgt Scott Shannon, LCol Brian Frei, LCol (ret=d) William H. Garrick
WO (ret=d) Sean Der Bonneteau, CWO (ret=d) Barry Watson
Col (ret=d) Michel W. Drapeau
Mr. Joshua Juneau
For Mr. Shaun Fynes
and Mrs. Sheila Fynes
A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc. © 2012
200 Elgin Street, Suite 1105
Ottawa, Ontario K2P 1L5
(613) 564-2727
333 Bay Street, Suite 900
Toronto, Ontario M5H 2T4
(416) 861-8720
(ii)
INDEX
PAGE
SWORN: SERGEANT ELIZABETH DIANNE WEIR
Examination in Chief by Ms. Cernacek
Cross examination by Col. (Ret=d) Drapeau
Cross examination by Ms McLaine
Further Cross examination by Col (Ret=d) Drapeau
SWORN: MASTER WARRANT OFFICER REMI MAINVILLE
Examination in Chief by Ms Cernacek
Cross examination by Col. (Ret=d) Drapeau
Cross examination by Ms McLaine
Re-examination by Ms Cernacek
1
1
33
37
38
39
39
97
107
114
(iii)
LIST OF EXHIBITS
NO.
DESCRIPTION
PAGE
P-78
Witness book index for Sergeant Weir
1
P-79
Witness book index for Master Warrant Officer Mainville
1
1
1
2
3
Ottawa, Ontario
--- Upon resuming on Tuesday, May 15, 2012
at 9:33 a.m.
4
THE CHAIRPERSON:
5
MS CERNACEK:
Good morning.
Good morning.
We
6
have two witnesses today, and before that, we have
7
two new exhibits to enter.
8
Sergeant Weir.
9
Witness book index for
THE REGISTRAR:
Exhibit P-78.
10
EXHIBIT P-78:
11
index for Sergeant Weir
12
13
MS CERNACEK:
Witness book
And the witness book
index for Master Warrant Officer Mainville.
14
THE REGISTRAR:
Exhibit P-79.
15
EXHIBIT P-79:
16
index for Master Warrant
17
Officer Mainville
18
19
MS CERNACEK:
We are ready to
proceed with Sergeant Weir.
20
21
Witness book
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Please proceed.
Good morning, Sergeant Weir, and welcome.
22
THE WITNESS:
Good morning, sir.
23
SWORN:
SERGEANT ELIZABETH DIANNE WEIR
24
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS CERNACEK:
25
Q.
Good morning, Sergeant.
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1
A.
Good morning.
2
Q.
As a way of introduction to
3
your testimony, could you please take us through
4
your background in the military.
5
A.
I joined the military in
6
2001.
On completion of basic training, I was
7
posted to Gagetown in the MPSS, which is like a
8
headquarters in Gagetown near Moncton.
9
was posted to Saint John, New Brunswick as
10
recruiting clerk in the recruiting centre.
11
In 2002, I
2006, I was posted to LdSH.
12
Joining LdSH in July and August, I went on and
13
started deployment training to go to Afghanistan.
14
I was in Afghanistan from February 2007 till
15
September 2007.
16
squadron, I went to the other squadron, the
17
headquarter squadron.
18
Then came back, and from one
Q.
Do I understand when you came
19
back from Afghanistan in September 2007, then you
20
were posted in the headquarters squadron.
21
A.
I had been on leave.
I would
22
have been on probably like 21 days, so I'm not
23
quite certain exactly what date I went to the
24
headquarters squadron.
25
Q.
You were posted in the
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1
headquarters squadrons in what capacity?
2
3
A.
I was one of the clerks
Q.
There is a document that has
there.
4
5
been distributed that is not included in the book
6
that is mainly to ascertain the timing of when you
7
were with the headquarters squadron.
8
A.
Okay.
9
Q.
This document is entitled "CF
10
Leave Request Authorization," so a leave request
11
authorization for Corporal Langridge.
12
stamp which says "People Soft Actioned."
13
tell us about that?
14
A.
There is a
Could you
When that was received, then
15
it goes into a program where everybody's leave is
16
calculated and they know at the end of the year how
17
much leave they have left, how much leave they
18
used.
19
stamped saying that it's entered that that program.
This would go into that program so then it's
20
Q.
Do you recognize the initials
22
A.
Yes, that's mine.
23
Q.
"DB" stands for?
24
A.
At that time, it was Dianne
21
25
there?
Birt.
I was a Birt at the time.
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1
Q.
That would mean since it's
2
dated the 5th of December 2007 that by that date,
3
you were already a clerk within the HQ squadron, is
4
that right?
5
A.
Yes.
6
Q.
Could you take us through
7
your duties and responsibilities as the
8
headquarters squadron clerk?
9
A.
As the headquarters squadron
10
clerk, we had a lot of members that used to go
11
between one squadron to another depending on who
12
they needed required to take from a headquarters
13
squadron to another squadron to train for
14
deployment.
15
At the time, LdSH had squadrons
16
coming in and squadrons going out.
With the
17
headquarters squadron, it would have been any pay
18
that members had, any administration issues.
19
helped out with travel if they were going on
20
courses.
21
claims like the travel claims for whatever they can
22
claim for this trip.
23
finalize them.
24
leave passes, yes.
We
We would book flights, we would start the
25
When they come back, we would
We do paperwork for promotion,
Q.
Just to come back to the time
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line perspective, so until when did you stay within
2
the headquarters squadron as a clerk?
3
A.
From when I went in there in
4
December?
I was there till -- I was posted in
5
2010.
6
got posted to 1 CER, the engineer regiment.
It would have been, I think, August 2009 I
7
Q.
During that time, did you
8
ever meet Corporal Langridge or did you ever talk
9
to him?
10
A.
No, not that I recall.
11
Q.
Do you know during that time
12
until his death in which squadron was Corporal
13
Langridge affiliated with?
14
15
He was with the headquarters
Q.
Were you aware, without
squadron.
16
17
A.
knowing him personally, of his circumstances?
18
A.
No.
19
Q.
How do the clerks keep track
20
-- the clerks or someone else for that matter -- of
21
who is on a given moment within the headquarters
22
squadron?
23
A.
We would have a nominal roll
24
done up.
That nominal roll would be the
25
individual's names, address, phone numbers, that
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1
pertinent information, but also their supervisor --
2
there is a sergeant that has another program.
3
called Monitor Mass.
4
It's
In that program, he would know
5
exactly where they are at.
He would have the same
6
information that we would have, so if there were
7
any changes to a nominal roll or anything, if the
8
member didn't tell us, he would let us know if he
9
knew.
10
Q.
Who updates the nominal roll?
11
A.
One of the clerks within the
13
Q.
How many clerks are there?
14
A.
Normally there are two in
12
squadron.
15
each one.
16
was three.
I think at the time I was there, there
17
Q.
Could you explain to us how
18
the work is dealt with between or was dealt with
19
between the three of you?
20
supervisory role that was assigned to one of you?
21
Was there any follow-up when one of the clerks did
22
something, for instance, updating a nominal roll?
23
Did the other clerks know about it?
24
work, the divisional work between you three?
25
A.
Was there any
How did that
We were busy at that time.
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It was a really busy period.
2
been coming off a Christmas leave.
3
entitled to go home to the next of kin for travel
4
over Christmas so we would have been finalizing
5
claims.
6
People are
So it would be more or less
7
whatever is there to do.
8
and do it.
9
10
People would have
Q.
We would all pick at it
How did you know who was
doing what and how did you divide the work?
11
A.
One person would work on
12
claims.
Somebody else would work on PEN forms or
13
the other administration that we have, and somebody
14
would look after leave.
15
16
Q.
How did you know what time
was done amongst you three?
17
A.
Just talking about what we
18
have done, yes.
19
between the junior clerks and the chief clerk.
20
21
I was more or less the go-between
Q.
And the junior clerks, are
you referring to the clerks working with you?
22
A.
Yes.
23
Q.
You were not a chief clerk
24
and not a junior clerk.
25
A.
No, I was like an in-between.
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1
Q.
Who was your superior?
2
A.
Warrant Officer Doucette.
3
Q.
How did you report to her?
4
What was her supervisory relationship with you
5
based on?
How did it happen on a daily basis?
6
A.
If we needed something, I
7
would go up to her and see her in her office or I
8
would e-mail her or I would phone her.
9
Q.
10
What would you do when you
had questions about anything regarding your work?
11
A.
Same thing.
I would go to
12
Warrant Doucette.
13
the clerks had a question that I didn't know or
14
they didn't know, we could go see Warrant Doucette.
15
16
If I didn't know something or
Q.
What about your relationship
with the chain of command?
17
A.
Okay.
18
Q.
Besides chief clerk.
Was
19
there any supervisory role between the chain of
20
command and yourself?
21
A.
Our administration officer.
22
Q.
Who would have been...
23
A.
I think at that time it was
24
Lieutenant Douglas.
25
Q.
Was that the administration
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officer for the headquarters squadron?
2
A.
Yes, he was.
3
Q.
Between Lieutenant Douglas
4
and the chief clerk, what was the difference
5
between their supervisory roles?
6
A.
The chief clerk was
7
everything to do with clerk.
The administration
8
office was administration in the headquarters
9
squadron, whether it be planning trips or planning
10
ranges, things like that.
I couldn't exactly tell
11
you what an administration officer does.
12
Q.
So in what circumstances
13
would you come into contact with him?
14
A.
If we need any forms signed,
15
if he needed pers files to look at, if he needed to
16
track down if somebody was on a course and what
17
course it was, things like that.
18
Q.
Do you remember whether,
19
then, Captain Volstad was also with headquarters
20
squadron?
21
A.
Yes.
22
Q.
What would have been his
23
involvement with your work?
24
25
A.
He was the 2 i/c, so he would
be -- I wouldn't be going directly to him, I would
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go through the AO, but he can do the exact same
2
thing.
3
he can ask us to look up things for him.
He can sign things, he can request files,
4
Q.
You mentioned the database
5
that was there to keep track of everyone that was
6
in the headquarters squadron.
7
it a nominal roll?
I believe you name
8
A.
A nominal roll.
9
Q.
Yes.
10
Was there a difference
between this and the pers files?
11
A.
No, there shouldn't be, but
12
if there is something changed and somebody doesn't
13
tell us, then a nominal roll is not going to be
14
correct.
15
Q.
Do I understand correctly
16
from what you are telling us IS that there is
17
correspondence between the information in the pers
18
files and the nominal roll?
19
20
A.
If it's correct, if the
information is correct.
21
Q.
What was your responsibility
22
and duties as a clerk of the squadron with respect
23
to the pers files?
24
25
A.
If anything that had to be
filed, if somebody went on a course, promotions,
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paperwork that had to be filed, I would file them
2
on the pers file, keep them all up-to-date.
3
4
Q.
What about the updating of
the documents in the personnel file?
5
A.
They would have been updated
6
in this HRMS or PeopleSoft is what it's called, and
7
then they would be filed to the file.
8
Q.
9
In what circumstances would
the pers files be updated?
10
A.
As in?
12
Q.
When --
13
A.
When would --
14
Q.
When there would be an update
A.
When we would look at one or
Q.
Basically I'm trying to find
11
15
understand.
to a pers file?
16
17
--
18
19
out when would you look at one.
20
21
I don't quite
A.
When I had to file something
or I was looking for something on a person.
22
Q.
Besides a specific search for
23
something that you just mentioned, would there be
24
other circumstances, for instance, like review or
25
updating of documents where you would look at the
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pers file or other instances?
2
A.
Yes.
3
Q.
Can you take us through that?
4
Can you explain how it works?
5
A.
There is a PRV, it's a
6
Personnel Readiness Verification, that we can do,
7
and on that, the member comes to us and we go
8
through everything on his pers file, the documents
9
and that just to verify that everything is still
10
correct and updated.
11
Q.
Who brings this up?
A.
That would be somebody else.
12
How does
this occur?
13
14
A clerk can't decide when to have a PRV because
15
it's the tempo of what the regiment is in at the
16
time and the squadron is in, so it would have to be
17
somebody higher to say, "This is the days that we
18
are going to do PRVs."
19
20
Q.
In the circumstances that you
were in in 2007, 2008, who would that have been?
21
A.
I'm not quite sure.
It could
22
have been the CO, it could have been an OC.
23
it wouldn't have been a clerk that decided when to
24
do a PRV.
25
Q.
I know
Do you remember a PRV
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1
happening during that time frame?
2
A.
No.
3
Q.
When you say you don't
4
remember, does that mean that one did not happen or
5
you don't remember whether it happened?
6
7
How many soldiers were there
A.
There could be anywhere
between 86 to, I would say, 126.
12
13
Q.
within the headquarters squadron?
10
11
One did not happen while I
was there.
8
9
A.
Q.
With respect to all of these
soldiers, what is the purpose of a PRV?
14
A.
Just to make sure the
15
information on their personnel file is updated and
16
correct.
17
Q.
Is there any system in place
18
to make sure that everyone went through this
19
process?
20
A.
Yes, there probably would
21
have been like another spreadsheet to cross off,
22
who had come up and who didn't come up, and then we
23
go up to the supervisors and tell them that these
24
people haven't shown up.
25
Q.
Who would set up this
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spreadsheet?
2
3
A.
I would probably type it up
with everybody's name on it from that squadron.
4
Q.
On what occasion would you
5
set up that spreadsheet?
6
set up that spreadsheet?
7
A.
What would prompt you to
If there was a PRV, to make
8
sure that we had everybody had come in that day or
9
two days, whatever it took, to go through their
10
file.
11
Q.
Do I understand correctly
12
from what you are telling us is that the members
13
had to come during specified dates to do this PRV?
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
I will take you to tab 9 of
16
the document book.
Do you recognize this document?
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
It is statutory declaration
19
of common law relationship.
20
this document?
21
What do you know about
What was your involvement with it?
A.
I may have typed it up and
22
then it would have went to Captain Volstad and
23
Captain Volstad would have seen the member and the
24
spouse at that time.
25
Q.
Again, we see the stamp that
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1
we have seen on the authorization of release saying
2
PeopleSoft.
Do you recognize those initials?
3
A.
Yes, they are mine.
4
Q.
What do they mean with regard
5
to the date that it's in there?
6
7
A.
was entered into the system.
8
Q.
9
top of the document.
10
That means that's the date it
not clear to read.
There is a little note on the
It's a little cut off so it's
Would this be your writing?
11
A.
Could be.
12
Q.
Could you help us decipher
13
this?
Would you be able to read what is written?
14
15
A.
"PA pers."
That means put
away on his personnel file.
16
Q.
Is there a difference between
17
put away on personnel files and PeopleSoft actioned
18
the document?
19
A.
Yes.
20
Q.
What is the difference?
21
A.
The difference is I'm
22
actually entering this in a system and then I'm
23
taking this and putting it on his file.
24
25
Q.
So put away is a physical
action?
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1
A.
Yes.
2
Q.
And the PeopleSoft action is
3
entering it electronically in a database?
4
A.
Yes.
5
Q.
Would this happen on the same
7
A.
Not necessarily.
8
Q.
In what sequence do these
10
A.
As in...
11
Q.
What comes first?
12
A.
For this?
6
9
13
day?
events happen?
It would have been
the PeopleSoft action.
14
Q.
In your own experience or in
15
your own way that you functioned as a clerk, how
16
did you do these things?
17
actioned the document, did you then put it away
18
directly on the pers file or did you wait a moment
19
between the two actions?
20
A.
When you PeopleSoft
It wasn't necessarily put
21
away the exact same day.
We would have a file
22
there for filing that we did, paperwork that had to
23
be filed that day, and we would put it in that box
24
or whatever it was we had, and then when we had a
25
chance, then we go and we start filing everything.
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1
2
Q.
I see.
A.
Yes.
So it's like very
distinct tasks?
3
Well, it is and it
4
isn't.
When you have a chance to file something
5
after it has been actioned, you do it then.
6
so busy that we can't just do this and take it over
7
and file it, so what we do is we put everything
8
aside for the day and then we will file it.
9
Q.
We are
Would it be necessarily the
10
same person who would PeopleSoft action and put it
11
away?
12
A.
No.
13
Q.
It can be a different clerk.
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
Do you recall speaking about
16
this document before it was put away with anyone?
17
A.
No, not that I recall.
18
Q.
Maybe to help you recall, we
19
have heard evidence at this hearing about
20
conversations that you would have had with Master
21
Corporal Fitzpatrick and with the chief clerk about
22
dissolution of this common law relationship.
23
24
A.
That wasn't at this time.
That would have been later.
25
Q.
Okay.
So when would that be?
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2
A.
date.
I couldn't tell you the exact
I couldn't give you an exact date.
3
Q.
4
time.
5
January.
6
March.
Let's try to situate us in
This says PeopleSoft actioned 7th of
Corporal Langridge died on the 15th of
7
That is a two and a half month
8
time frame, about two months.
Where within this
9
time frame would you be able to situate the
10
discussion about the dissolution of the common law
11
relationship?
12
A.
With who?
13
Q.
Well, I just suggested to
14
you, but tell us if you recall speaking with Master
15
Corporal Fitzpatrick.
16
A.
It would have been when he
17
came up to see me and I couldn't give you an exact
18
date of when he came up to see me.
19
20
Q.
When he came up to see you,
what did he tell you?
21
A.
He said that Corporal
22
Langridge was living in the barracks and that his
23
paperwork should be updated.
24
Q.
Did he tell you why?
25
A.
No.
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2
Q.
this with the chief clerk?
3
4
Do you recall speaking about
A.
Yes, I did mention it to her
after Master Corporal Fitzpatrick told me this.
5
Q.
What did you tell her?
6
A.
I just told her that he was
7
living in the barracks.
8
9
Q.
Why did you speak to her
A.
To just let her know that he
about this?
10
11
should come up to see us to see if anything had to
12
be changed.
13
14
Q.
Do you recall speaking to her
about the common law declaration as well?
15
A.
No, not that I can recall.
16
Q.
Did you speak with anyone
18
A.
About this?
19
Q.
Yes.
20
A.
Major Jared, I think he was
17
else about this?
21
OC at the time.
22
also.
The common law?
I think I had mentioned it to him
23
Q.
What did you mention to him?
24
A.
It would have been the same
25
thing at that time.
I was told that he was he was
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1
living in the barracks so he should come up and see
2
us, see if there was any paperwork that has to be
3
changed.
4
5
Q.
What did you speak to him
A.
Just to let him know in the
about this?
6
7
loop because I had talked to Master Corporal
8
Fitzpatrick and he knew that the member should come
9
up to see us just to double-check his paperwork to
10
see if there was any changes.
11
Q.
Did you take any actions
12
following your discussion with Master Corporal
13
Fitzpatrick?
14
15
A.
Yes, I gave him blank forms
to take down to Corporal Langridge.
16
Q.
Which forms were they?
17
A.
The SDB, the will, the PEN
18
and memorial cross.
19
Q.
What about a PEN form?
20
A.
That's what I said, a PEN
21
form.
Sorry.
I said PEN, not PEN form.
22
Q.
23
memorial cross, but that's all right.
24
25
I understand SDB, will and
I will take you to tab 3.
This is
a statutory declaration that Master Corporal
A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc.
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1
Fitzpatrick drafted after the fact.
2
drafted on the 21st of April.
3
beginning that:
It's actually
He says at the
4
"In early February 2008 while
5
checking Corporal Langridge's
6
unit personal file, I
7
discovered some of his
8
documents were in need of
9
updating.
I collected blank
10
copies for him to update."
11
So he situates this in February
12
2008.
I understand when he says "I collected blank
13
copies for him to update," from what you just told
14
us, these blank copies would have come from you?
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
Does this early February 2008
A.
I couldn't tell you exactly
17
ring a bell?
18
19
when I gave him these.
20
21
A.
I couldn't tell you honestly.
I just don't know the time period.
24
25
Does this sound wrong or you
can't tell us?
22
23
Q.
Q.
10.
I will now take you to tab
This is an e-mail that we received from Major
A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc.
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1
Volstad, but it's from Lieutenant Douglas who you
2
mentioned was your superior, the admin officer for
3
the HQ squadron, right?
4
A.
Yes.
5
Q.
You were not one of the
7
A.
No.
8
Q.
But what it says is "Subject:
6
9
10
addressees here.
Memorial Cross Recipient Forms."
It says in the
second sentence:
11
"I have double checked pers
12
files and handed in forms and
13
have compiled a list of
14
outstanding ones.
15
have your members complete
16
this forms as soon as
17
possible for OC HQ squadron's
18
review and turn them into AO
19
HQ squadron."
20
21
Please
Just for starters, OC HQ squadron
would be who?
22
A.
Major Jared.
23
Q.
Major Jared.
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
You have seen the list there.
A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc.
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1
There is a Corporal Langridge listed in the middle.
2
A.
Yes.
3
Q.
And then at the bottom,
4
Lieutenant Douglas says:
5
"I require these back no
6
latter than tomorrow."
7
8
Do you recall this request for
memorial cross forms for --
9
10
A.
No, I wasn't even on the
Q.
Is Major Jared here?
e-mail.
11
I will
12
just verify in the addressees.
13
Doucette is in there.
14
one member, Corporal Langridge, listed in here is a
15
member of the HQ squadron, the updating of the
16
memorial cross document, would that have normally
17
come through you?
18
19
A.
Since the member, at least
His supervisor would inform
him that he has to come up to fill one out.
20
21
Warrant Officer
Q.
As a result of this e-mail,
that would have been the normal course of action?
22
A.
I would say if his supervisor
23
is aware of it, his supervisor should be telling
24
him to come up to the orderly room to have one
25
completed.
A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc.
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1
Q.
Regarding the common law
2
declaration, so you said you probably drafted it.
3
Can you take us through the process of what
4
happens?
You drafted and what happens afterwards?
5
A.
When I drafted up, the member
6
and his spouse would have to come in to see the
7
officer that is going to sign it off.
8
9
At that time, they would bring
proof of have they been residing together and it's
10
entirely up to the officer and the CO to approve
11
that.
I just type up the forms.
12
13
A.
When the member comes up to
say they want to be common law.
16
17
What prompts you to type the
form?
14
15
Q.
Q.
Do you remember Corporal
Langridge coming up and asking to be common law?
18
A.
No.
19
Q.
Do you remember how this came
21
A.
No.
22
Q.
You type it out and you send
20
23
about?
is to whom, the typed out form?
24
25
A.
At this case, it was the 2
i/c, Captain Volstad.
A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc.
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1
2
3
Q.
How does this form circulate?
It's in a paper format physically or is it by
e-mail?
4
A.
No, it's all paper.
5
Q.
So how do you provide this
6
paper to Captain Volstad?
7
A.
This paper is typed up, the
8
form is typed up, put into a file folder and put in
9
his mailbox.
10
11
Q.
So you don't necessarily see
Captain Volstad to hand it over to him?
12
A.
I could.
His office was
13
right there.
14
could see each other.
15
it in his mailbox; if he is not, I can walk it
16
right into his office.
17
I see him everyday.
Q.
We visually
So if he is busy, I will put
So once you put it in his
18
mailbox or you hand it out to him, when do you next
19
come in possession of the form?
20
A.
When it comes back from the
21
CO, when the CO, the commanding officer, has signed
22
it off.
23
Q.
At that time, is the form in
24
the state where we see it here?
25
9.
I believe it's tab
When it comes back from the CO, is it in this
A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc.
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1
shape and form?
2
A.
Yes.
3
Q.
From then on, what happens
4
regarding your involvement with the form?
5
A.
Then this form is
6
electronically put into PeopleSoft and is filed on
7
his file.
8
9
Q.
During this process, do you
have any responsibilities with regard to other
10
documents that this might affect within the pers
11
file?
12
A.
As in...
13
Q.
I don't know.
Like the
14
member becomes common law, does that have a
15
consequence with regard to his other documents?
16
A.
That's when the member should
17
check his pers file to make sure the documents he
18
does have on it is current and up-to-date.
19
Q.
Do you as a clerk have any
20
responsibilities with regard to this, to updating
21
the other documents?
22
A.
No, he would update them and
23
then I would make sure they were either put into
24
the data system or put on the file afterwards.
25
Q.
How does the member know
A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc.
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which documents should be updated?
2
A.
Normally the members know
3
right from the get-go what documents are updated
4
for these things.
5
when he would come up and he would check with the
6
clerk to say, "Are my documents in order and what
7
ones I have to do"?
8
9
If he is not quite sure, that's
Q.
In a case when you never come
into contact with the member such as here, what
10
happens with regards to the updating of the other
11
documents?
12
A.
I would tell his supervisor
13
to have him come up to see us to check the files
14
over.
15
Q.
In the chain of events that
16
you described with regard to the drafting and then
17
coming back of the common law declaration, you
18
didn't mention the supervisor coming into play, so
19
at what occasion would you mention this to the
20
supervisor?
21
A.
After the paperwork had been
22
signed off to have the member come up to review the
23
file.
24
25
Q.
So that would be of your own
initiative?
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1
A.
To mention it?
2
Q.
Yes.
3
A.
Yes.
4
Q.
We heard some evidence of a
5
conversation between yourself and someone else
6
regarding a change of marital status from common
7
law to dissolution.
8
about this?
Do you recall a conversation
9
A.
No.
10
Q.
Specifically with chief
12
A.
No.
13
Q.
I will take you to tab 14.
14
It's a document entitled "Checklist."
15
at the top, it is identified as coming from
16
"A-PM-245."
17
2011.
11
clerk?
As you see
On the bottom, it's dated October
18
A.
Yes.
19
Q.
The checklists name is "Life
20
events affecting pension, annuity, pay, allowances,
21
benefits or expenses."
Do you recognize this form?
22
A.
No.
23
Q.
What interpretation do you
24
take from this form?
25
A.
How do you interpret it?
A checklist if somebody is
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1
changing anything on their file.
2
Q.
Anything such as what?
3
A.
Everything that's there,
4
marital status, surname, statutory declaration,
5
birth certificates.
6
Q.
When you say you don't
7
recognize it, did such a similar checklist exist in
8
2007, 2008?
9
A.
No, not that I recall.
10
Q.
That comes back to my
11
previous question regarding what documents need to
12
be updated after there is a common law declaration,
13
for instance.
14
needed to be updated?
How did you know what documents
15
16
A.
Just from doing them, just
Q.
When you mentioned to us the
from experience.
17
18
PRVs, the reviews, we have heard also the name or
19
the acronym DAG.
20
A.
DAG, yes.
It's a Departure
21
Assistance Group.
22
when somebody is going on operational tour.
23
little bit more in depth.
24
25
That's more or less used for
Q.
It's a
So there is a difference
between a PRV and a DAG.
A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc.
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1
A.
Yes.
2
Q.
Let's fist talk about the
3
PRV.
How does a soldier know how to come up to see
4
you for a PRV?
5
A.
When the supervisors are told
6
what days and what times that they are going to be
7
held.
8
Q.
Who decides this?
9
A.
That would be either the AO,
10
the 2 i/c or the OC.
11
Q.
12
With respect to a DAG, how do
the soldiers know?
13
A.
Would be the same thing.
14
Q.
What about the frequency of a
A.
That's entirely up to the
15
PRV?
16
17
commanding officer when he wants to have PRVs.
18
Q.
What about a DAG?
19
A.
That would be the same thing.
20
21
There would be a set time to do DAGs to get ready
for people, paperwork to be done for deployment.
22
Q.
How would you describe the
23
difference between the two?
24
in the purpose of one and the other?
25
A.
What is the difference
PRV is more for what's on a
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1
personnel's file and to double-check to make sure
2
their medical is not outdated, dental is not
3
outdated, licences are up-to-date, 404s are
4
up-to-date.
5
DAGs are more specific for -- all
6
that is on it plus operational immunization that
7
they have to do.
8
ranges that they have to do that has to be checked
9
off there, specific things for operations.
10
11
Q.
A.
There are two different
Q.
So there are forms sort of a
forms.
14
15
How do clerks know what to
verify for a PRV and what to verify for a DAG?
12
13
There is other training on there,
checklist similar to this?
16
A.
Yes.
17
Q.
What I take from what you
18
just told us is that there was a checklist in 2007,
19
2008 for a PRV?
20
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
There was a checklist for a
23
A.
Yes.
24
Q.
But there was no checklist
22
25
DAG.
for when someone updates their common law status?
A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc.
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1
A.
No, not that I recall.
2
Q.
I think we broached this
3
question from various angles already, but just to
4
make sure:
5
reviews or updates to make sure that the soldier
6
attends the --
Who is responsible for each of these
7
A.
The supervisor.
8
Q.
Now I would like to turn
9
again to your interactions with Master Corporal
10
Fitzpatrick and the blank forms that you gave to
11
him.
12
time.
You told us that you cannot situate it in
13
I will try a last attempt to see
14
whether I could situate you.
Would you have a
15
general idea how long before Corporal Langridge's
16
death would that have occurred?
17
A.
No.
18
Q.
Did you have any follow-up
19
with regard to this with Master Corporal
20
Fitzpatrick?
21
A.
As far as...
22
Q.
Like when you gave him the
24
A.
No.
25
Q.
No further conversation about
23
forms.
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this with him?
2
A.
Not that I can recall.
3
Q.
What about with Major Jared?
4
A.
No.
5
Q.
And with the chief clerk?
6
A.
No.
7
Q.
We were speaking about PRVs,
8
DAGs, and there is another term that we have heard,
9
which is mini DAG?
10
Does it --
A.
That doesn't ring a bell to
12
Q.
That doesn't ring a bell.
13
A.
No, not at all.
14
Q.
Those are my questions.
11
me.
I
15
would just need to cite the exhibit number for the
16
document that I referred to at the beginning.
17
Exhibit P-5, Collection E, Volume 1, tab 12, 1139H,
18
page 11 of 29.
19
20
Thank you very much.
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Colonel Drapeau?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU:
21
22
It's
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU:
Thank you.
Good morning, Mr. Chair.
23
Q.
Good morning, Sergeant Weir.
24
A.
Good morning, sir.
25
Q.
There is couple of questions
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1
I want to clarify so maybe some overlapping what my
2
friend has asked.
3
That was your boss?
4
You work for the chief clerk?
A.
I didn't work directly for
5
her.
She was my next -- if we had questions or
6
anything, she was our expertise.
7
Q.
So in the technical chain, if
8
I can use that language, that's the person to go
9
to.
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
But from a command
13
A.
It would have been the AO.
14
Q.
AO, and AO would report to
A.
Who would in turn go to the
18
Q.
Who wrote your PER?
19
A.
The AO.
20
A.
So that's clear.
12
15
perspective --
Captain Volstad.
16
17
OIC.
Could you
21
tell me space wise, just trying to get a picture of
22
myself, where would your office be in relation say
23
to the junior centre or to the adjutant or the
24
chief clerk?
25
A.
We were upstairs on one wing
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1
of the building.
2
Q.
Same building.
3
A.
Same building.
Headquarters
4
squadron was on this wing and the chief clerk and
5
the CO would have been on the other wing.
6
Q.
So you could walk easily.
7
A.
Yes, and the duty centre was
8
downstairs.
9
10
We were all upstairs.
Q.
under your control, your filing cabinets?
11
A.
12
cabinets in the OR.
13
Q.
14
The pers files, they were
They were in our filing
That was a policy within the
unit, they would decentralize.
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
If I could turn your
17
attention to -- and it's my last question -- tab
18
14, please.
19
have a series of number, A-PM-245.
Two points.
Right at the very top we
20
A.
Yes, sir.
21
Q.
I think I know what it is but
22
I want to ask you:
What is this?
23
A.
That's one of our
24
publications if we need clarification.
25
Q.
Do you know the title of that
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1
publication?
2
A.
Off hand, no.
3
Q.
In general term, would be
A.
Yes, it would be
4
administration?
5
6
administration.
7
publication.
It's an administration
8
Q.
9
that was your bible?
10
Would I be correct in saying
I mean, as the RMS clerk,
everything you need to know.
11
A.
We had six bibles.
12
Q.
That was one of the bibles.
13
A.
That was one of them.
14
Q.
A big one.
15
A.
Yes, so was QR&O, so was
Q.
This is Chapter 13, so there
16
CFAOs.
17
18
would be other chapters, but you don't have a
19
recollection as to what this is all about.
20
A.
For this one here?
21
Q.
Yes.
22
A.
No.
23
off.
I would have to go in to read it.
24
25
Couldn't tell you right
Q.
Because what I'm wondering
about is what are the other 12 chapters or maybe
A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc.
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1
chapters following whether or not there were some
2
interaction, some discussion we are having here.
3
So you don't know?
4
A.
5
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU:
6
No.
THE CHAIRPERSON:
8
MS McLAINE:
Ms McLaine?
Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS McLAINE:
10
Q.
You have taken us through
11
what is required to initiate a common law
12
relationship.
13
order to dissolve one?
14
15
Thank
you.
7
9
Okay.
Is the same process required in
A.
Yes, there is another form
that has to be filled out.
16
Q.
You have indicated that you
17
gave these blank forms to Master Corporal
18
Fitzpatrick.
19
A.
Yes.
20
Q.
Did you give him any
21
instructions at the time as to what to do with
22
those forms?
23
A.
To take them down for the
24
member to have a look at them and to get him to
25
come up to check the file and see if everything he
A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc.
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38
1
had then was correct.
2
could have filled those forms out and came up to
3
see us.
4
Q.
If he had any changes, he
And your expectation was that
5
Corporal Langridge would come and bring those forms
6
to you.
7
A.
8
MS McLAINE:
9
THE CHAIRPERSON:
10
Yes.
Thank you.
Any re-exam?
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU:
11
Q.
One question just as a
12
follow-up.
This form, because my friend used the
13
word "dissolved," was that to advise the chain of
14
command that the relationship, the common law
15
relationship, had come to an end
--
16
A.
Yes.
17
Q.
-- or was that as opposed to
18
asking permission for it?
19
A.
No, it was to inform them.
20
The CO would sign it off saying, "Yes, I
21
acknowledge --
22
23
Q.
to me it's broken."
24
25
-- acknowledge that you said
Thanks.
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Sergeant, I
think that concludes your testimony.
I want to
A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc.
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1
thank you today for your attendance and your
2
service for 11 years or a little more, I appreciate
3
that, and thank you very much.
4
THE WITNESS:
5
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Thank you, sir.
Do you want to
6
take a break till 10:35, morning break, to prepare
7
for the next witness?
8
--- Recess taken at 10:18 a.m.
9
--- Upon resuming at 10:35 a.m.
10
11
Thank you.
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Good afternoon,
Warrant Officer, and welcome.
12
THE WITNESS:
Yes, sir.
13
SWORN:
MASTER WARRANT OFFICER REMI MAINVILLE
14
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS CERNACEK:
15
Q.
16
you for coming.
17
comments.
18
Hello, Master Warrant.
Thank
I believe Colonel Drapeau has some
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU:
Maybe I can
19
wait till the end of it so as not to disrupt the
20
testimony.
21
22
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Nothing in
relation to...
23
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU:
24
MS CERNACEK:
25
Q.
Thank you.
As an introduction to your
A.S.A.P. Reporting Services Inc.
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testimony, could you situate us in the 2007, 2008
2
time frame, what was your position within the
3
military?
4
A.
I got posted in July 2007 to
5
LdSH as the RQMS, regimental quartermaster, to the
6
unit.
7
posted in 2009.
8
on exercise.
9
John's during the time frame.
10
I was there for exactly two years and I got
In between that time frame, I was
I went on a couple of courses in St.
Anything else
specifically you need or...
11
Q.
That's fine.
Thank you.
12
A.
Okay.
13
Q.
Could you describe what did
14
this position as regimental quartermaster entailed
15
in terms of duties and responsibilities?
16
A.
As the unit regimental
17
quartermaster, I take care of all equipment for the
18
whole regiment from clothing to vehicle to even the
19
finance part of it for the unit.
20
The QM takes priority of it, and
21
as she goes on vacation or course, I do her backlog
22
on that part.
23
of all their equipment that's in their quarters,
24
not their house, but strictly their quarters.
25
When people pass away, I take care
I make sure of all the purchasing
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for the unit.
I'm the one that takes care of that.
2
I do final approval for the finance on that part.
3
I do the Section 34s, the authority to spend that
4
money.
5
Q.
You mentioned the QM.
6
A.
I'm the regiment
7
quartermaster and the quartermaster was Captain
8
Rebecca Evans.
9
time.
10
11
She was my quartermaster at the
Q.
What was her duties with
respect to your duties?
12
A.
She mostly does finance and
13
she is my liaison to the deputy commander and the
14
OC of the Adam Company that we were part of, so she
15
is my link in between.
16
and she does the officer part of it.
17
18
Q.
Were you affiliated to a
squadron or was it for the whole regiment?
19
20
I do the soldier part of it
A.
No, I did the whole regiment.
That's why it's called regiment quartermaster.
21
Q.
We have heard during the
22
course of the evidence in these hearings a mention
23
of RQ shop.
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
Could you explain what that
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is?
2
A.
The regiment quartermaster
3
takes care of the whole regiment.
4
CQs that take care of the squadron, or SQs for the
5
LdSH, squadron quartermasters, so they only take
6
care of the squadron.
7
Then you have
I take care of the whole regiment
8
that they come to me for all equipment and then I
9
disperse it to them on that part so that's why RQ
10
shop is regiment quartermaster.
11
12
Q.
So you mentioned these people
that take care of equipment within the squadrons.
13
A.
Yes.
14
Q.
Can you describe who works
15
for you and what they do?
16
A.
Okay.
I have a sergeant.
At
17
the time it was Sergeant Stevenson.
He took care
18
of inputting all my finance stuff inside and he was
19
my link to all the soldiers that I had working in
20
the warehouse and things like that, but he worked
21
right beside my office in my area.
22
I also had the cook section that
23
comes under me, under the regiment quartermasters'
24
section.
25
purchasing corporal at the time.
I also had a Corporal Haas.
He was my
Then I had the
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warehouse that was right beside it, and the
2
warehouse I had -- it was Master Corporal Dunker
3
(ph) and there was a Corporal Parodie (ph) that was
4
in that warehouse same time, and then I had three
5
to four combat storeman.
6
the regiment that are not broken but they need a
7
break from the regiment from doing stuff.
8
9
Those are personnel from
Some of them have a damaged leg
they need for rehab, so the RSM or their TQ
10
advisors sends them to our shop to help us because
11
we are short staffed on that part.
12
And there is a whole bunch of
13
people.
I can't name them all.
14
them that I remember that were there for a long
15
time, but a lot of them they are there for a month
16
or two weeks or even six months sometimes, but I
17
don't deal with them directly, they come under the
18
sergeant usually.
19
20
Q.
I can name some of
Besides the QM, do you have
another chain of command directly?
21
A.
My chain of command was Major
22
Jared.
He was my chain of command on a lot of
23
stuff because he was my OC for the Adam Company and
24
for technical, the DCO.
25
of them.
At the time there were two
It was Major Cadieu and Major Collins
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(ph) who were the two deputy commanders at the time
2
within that two year period I was there.
3
4
Q.
What about your working
relationship with the RSM?
5
A.
6
relationship.
7
much to do with him.
8
problem, I usually go.
9
The RSM, very good working
It's not technical.
I don't have
If I have a technical
If I have the manpower, I go to my
10
squadron that was Adam Company that I went to them
11
and we dealt it that way, so when I talk to the
12
RSM, it was always pleasant, always a good
13
relationship.
14
15
It was not that much about work.
Q.
When you mentioned Adam
Company, could you explain that?
16
A.
The squadron is the Adam,
17
means you do administration for the whole unit, so
18
for us, I'm the RQ shop, you get the mechanics, you
19
get the cooks.
20
the whole regiment.
We support, when we go on exercise,
21
Q.
So Adam refers to regiment?
22
A.
No.
23
within the regiment.
24
Q.
Okay.
25
A.
It's part of the
Adam is a squadron
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headquarters.
2
Q.
I believe you mentioned this
3
in your interview with the NIS from the January
4
2008 time frame from there on, Corporal Langridge's
5
personal effects came to your attention.
6
tell us about that?
7
A.
Could you
I was on the winter exercise
8
in January when his effects were turned into my
9
shop.
At the time when I came back, I asked
10
Sergeant Stevenson at the time what was this stuff
11
doing there.
12
Padre Hubbard -- I hope I said his name right.
He had mentioned that there was a
13
Q.
Hubbard.
14
A.
Yes.
The mother and the
15
common law wife had turned in their stuff to my
16
shop, dropped it there and all that.
17
on to my sergeant at the time that it's
18
unacceptable, we do not that.
19
I passed it
If we would take everybody's
20
equipment that when they get separated, we are not
21
a warehouse to store personal effect and we are not
22
insured by law to do personal effect in our
23
establishment.
24
25
This is the first time in my life
I had seen that done that way, but since they told
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me that the person was still at the regiment,
2
that's why I accepted to leave it there till he got
3
better and hopefully they would put the stuff in
4
storage.
5
Q.
Let me break this down a
6
little bit.
7
personal effects being at the RQ shop?
8
A.
9
So when were you informed about the
I was informed when I showed
up Monday morning from the exercise.
I'm always at
10
work early, so the first thing I do is I always
11
walk my warehouse.
12
there is always one person that do lockups.
13
open the doors for everybody that's working that
14
day, so I always walk to make sure that everything
15
is around.
16
I see if any guys are in, so
They
So as I do that, I noticed that
17
his TV, chairs, whole bunch of stuff were locked up
18
in cages but he had stuff in big boxes in the
19
middle of the warehouse that we didn't have a place
20
to store it at that time till I found sea container
21
to lock it into.
22
THE CHAIRPERSON:
23
just might have missed it.
24
even said it.
25
exercise?
I'm sorry.
I
I think you might have
When did you return from your
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THE WITNESS:
It was in January.
2
I do not know the exact date by heart, but we were
3
on winter exercise at that time and we were only
4
gone for eight days, nine days max.
5
MS CERNACEK:
6
Q.
I was going to ask you to
7
help you to situate it with respect to Corporal
8
Langridge's passing away, which was on the 15th
9
March, would you know how long before was that?
10
A.
I think it was January.
11
don't know the exact date.
12
would have to look it up.
13
Q.
I don't remember.
I
I
When you transport yourself
14
in time, did you know about Corporal Langridge's
15
whereabouts when you were informed?
16
A.
Yes, because I had talked to
17
Master Corporal Fitzpatrick, I think that's his
18
name.
19
the regiment duty centre.
20
is this guy?"
21
or his face, so they said, AThat's him there.@
22
was sitting at the desk.
He was our duty centre guy.
23
He took care of
I asked him, I said "Who
because I didn't remember his name
He
They said that's the person there
24
that his stuff is in the effect, so I said "Okay.
25
That's fine."
And then they told me he was there
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for, I think, a week they said, that he had to stay
2
there for.
3
because there is a lot of people that get on duties
4
that they stay there for 24 hours or two days,
5
three days.
I didn't ask too much in details
They get extras, we call them.
6
Q.
They get -- sorry?
7
A.
They get extra duties, so
8
they are there sometimes 24 hours or --
9
Q.
Your conversation with Master
10
Corporal Fitzpatrick when he explained to you who
11
this guy was, how long after did this conversation
12
happen after you learned from your sergeant about
13
Corporal Langridge's effects being kept?
14
A.
15
dates, but I would say roughly a week,
16
approximately.
17
It probably was within that week time frame because
18
I came back Monday from the weekend in the field,
19
came back to work Monday and it was within that
20
time frame week because I was not happy.
21
I don't exactly remember the
I can't pinpoint the exact date.
I was on my way to talk to padre
22
and ask him why did he make that decision to --
23
like, you know, because I don't know if the
24
decision would have came from higher and all that.
25
If commander tells me "Yes, we
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will look it up," then I have to listen to my
2
commander, but if I would have been there, I would
3
have told the padre, "Sorry.
4
a place downtown and store it."
5
Q.
No, you have to find
Again, to break this down, so
6
when the information came to you, it came from your
7
sergeant.
Did I get that right?
8
A.
Yes.
9
Q.
What was his name?
10
A.
Sergeant Stevenson.
11
Q.
Stevenson.
Can you take us
12
again through exactly what Sergeant Stevenson told
13
you?
14
A.
All he told me was Corporal
15
Langridge's kit that was stored there and that the
16
padre, the mother and the wife -- he had mentioned
17
her name.
18
heart, but he said that they had dropped their
19
stuff here during the week and I didn't ask him
20
what day and nothing like that.
21
who it was and all that.
22
they had boxed it up on a big box and his name was
23
on it -- Corporal Langridge on it.
I don't remember all their names by
24
25
Q.
That's how I asked
His name was on the --
You mentioned that you were
on your way to see the padre?
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A.
The padre, yes.
2
Q.
Did you eventually speak to
A.
No, he was not in his office
3
the padre?
4
5
at the time, so I didn't get to talk to him.
6
7
Did you never speak with the
A.
No, because once I knew the
padre about this?
8
9
Q.
person was there, and I think they told me about a
10
week he still had left to do that he was there for,
11
I said, "Okay, when he is finished his duty@ --
12
because he has to stay there 24 hours a day, he is
13
not supposed to leave the building when they are on
14
duty or extras, whatever they get.
15
finishes that, that he will come and see me to get
16
his kit away.
I said once he
17
Q.
So you told this to whom?
18
A.
Master Corporal Fitzpatrick.
19
Q.
Did you speak about the
20
situation with anyone else?
21
22
What do you mean by
Q.
About Corporal Langridge
situation?
23
24
A.
having his effects in your --
25
A.
No.
I knew the member was
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there and when he came back, I would have asked him
2
to find a place to store it.
3
Q.
With regard to the dates, I'm
4
going to take you to tab 3.
This is a written
5
statement that was taken from your interview with
6
the NIS on the 17th.
7
wrote.
It's just what the NIS member
Paragraph 1b, it says:
8
"In January '08 when he was
9
not present --"
10
Meaning yourself, right?
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
"-- the unit padre, unknown
13
LdSH personnel, Corporal
14
Langridge's mother and Ms
15
Hamilton-Tree stored Corporal
16
Langridge's personal
17
belongings in the unit lines
18
warehouse."
19
This January '08 reference here,
20
does this ring a bell?
21
about January 2008?
22
23
A.
Yes, that's when we came back
from the exercise in January.
24
25
Do you remember speaking
Q.
Corporal Langridge passed
away on the 15th of March.
Does that make sense to
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you, the dates?
2
A.
3
January.
4
me to say.
I know I came back in
I don't understand the question you want
5
6
No.
Q.
The January here, I was
wondering what does it refer to specifically?
7
A.
In January, that's when his
8
stuff came into my shop, I think.
I'm pretty sure
9
it was the last week of January that we came back,
10
so the exact date I saw him, I can't say exactly
11
what day did I saw him but...
12
Q.
Do I understand correctly
13
from what you told us that you did not know
14
Corporal Langridge before?
15
A.
No.
16
Q.
Did you come into contact
17
with him afterwards?
18
A.
19
hello and that's it.
20
anybody that's on duty, I always say good morning
21
when I come in, and when I leave, I say goodnight,
22
see you guys tomorrow.
Yes, I saw him once, said
I have always been polite, so
23
It's standard.
24
personal conversation but just hello or good-bye.
25
Q.
I mean, no
So how did you know who he
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was?
2
A.
3
there, I don't know them all by heart.
4
hello and how is your day, everybody.
5
That's how I am.
6
is or who was sitting there.
7
hello to everybody.
8
9
10
Everybody that's on duty or
I just say
That's me.
It doesn't matter who the person
Q.
To me, I just said
But just from the fact that
you didn't know him before, how did you know this
person was Corporal Langridge?
11
A.
Because I asked Master
12
Corporal Fitzpatrick and he pointed out to me the
13
first time that I saw him there.
14
Q.
When you spoke with Master
15
Corporal Fitzpatrick, you saw Corporal Langridge as
16
well at that time?
17
18
He was at the counter, he
Q.
Did you get to know anything
was.
19
20
A.
about him afterwards --
21
A.
After...
22
Q.
-- about Corporal Langridge?
23
A.
After he passed away?
24
Q.
After the conversation with
25
Master Corporal Fitzpatrick.
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A.
No.
To me, it was somebody
2
that was there and it's not my business to know
3
exactly why.
4
5
Q.
So can you tell us what
happened with these effects that were in your shop?
6
A.
After he passed away or
8
Q.
Before.
9
A.
Before, some of the stuff
7
before?
10
that we had cages that we were able to lock them up
11
in right off the bat, so I had two cages and I
12
remember two TVs were in one, the leather chair and
13
the footstool and the other one had a couch and
14
something else in it.
15
stuff so we locked them up and we had no room to
16
lock any other equipment up, so it was just stacked
17
there in our warehouse.
18
Q.
I thought it was attractive
Can you now take us through
19
your involvement with Corporal Langridge's effects
20
after he died?
21
A.
Okay.
After he passed away,
22
I think it was a Sunday, I'm not too sure the exact
23
that he had passed away.
24
Q.
Saturday.
25
A.
Okay.
So the Monday when we
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came back to work, Major Jared asked me, he goes,
2
"Okay.
3
Committee of Adjustment?"
4
I was on one because as a regiment quartermaster,
5
we do quite a bit of them.
Do you know what you have to do part of a
6
It was not my first time
My involvement was to go to his --
7
he had a room in the quarters.
We had to go there,
8
make sure all his equipment -- I brought a team of
9
three people with me.
We took all his personal
10
effect that was in his room.
11
the room, brought them to the vehicle, there was
12
not that much stuff there.
13
Once my guys cleared
I do a sweep of the whole room.
I
14
check the top of the bunk, under the beds,
15
everything, under everywhere.
16
to make sure there is nothing left that somebody
17
would have forgotten or whatever, so that's my job
18
to do at the end, make sure the room is free.
19
say "yes" and we took everything that was belonging
20
to him in this room.
21
I put my hands under
I
We take that back to our
22
warehouse.
Once we had it back in the warehouse,
23
we made sure that we do an inventory of 100 per
24
cent of what was in that -- and I say 90 per cent
25
of it was military gear that he had in his room.
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Once that was there, we signed
2
out, then we returned everything that was military
3
to clothing stores to take it off his military docs
4
that he had signed, that all the military clothing
5
we returned it there and there is a sheet in here
6
that says that everything was returned off his
7
military gear.
8
9
Once we do that, then that day -I don't know exactly if it was that week or not,
10
but that's when I got appointed to be on Committee
11
of Adjustment with Major Jared and Warrant
12
Doucette.
13
Q.
14
Sorry.
15
number of people?
Let me just stop you there.
You mentioned you went to the room with a
16
A.
Yes, three people.
17
Q.
Would you know who that was?
18
A.
By heart, no.
Two would have
19
been by combat storeman, and I think Corporal Haas
20
was one.
21
think Corporal Primer (ph) was the other guy, and
22
the third guy I don't remember.
23
that was working there in my shop.
I think Corporal Haas was one guy and I
24
25
Q.
It was the guy
You mentioned there was an
inventory done of these items?
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A.
Yes.
2
Q.
Can you situate that in time?
3
When would that have happened?
4
A.
The same day.
5
Q.
The same day.
6
A.
Yes, they didn't have much.
7
It was very -- I would say it was mostly military
8
gear.
9
and a couple of stuff.
10
I think it was a barrack box, a duffle bag
There was not that much
stuff in his room.
11
Q.
Who did that inventory?
12
A.
I was personally there when
13
we did that inventory.
14
Q.
Also you mentioned that you
15
knew that Corporal Langridge resided for a time at
16
the duty centre.
17
18
Yes, at the time he was
Q.
Did you have anything to do
staying there.
19
20
A.
with any of his effects at the duty centre?
21
A.
Yes.
Master Corporal
22
Fitzpatrick -- it was not that same day because I
23
didn't know what he had in there, and I think it
24
was the next day, the next morning, that's when he
25
told me because we were looking for a key because
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it was locked up.
We could not find the key, so I
2
think Master Corporal Fitzpatrick went and got bolt
3
cutters and he opened it in my presence.
4
Q.
What did you do there?
5
A.
Same thing.
We just boxed
6
everything there on the spot because the reason we
7
do that is we don't want everybody else to see
8
what's there.
9
we do is we pack it up, we bring it back to our
10
warehouse and then we account there on the spot
11
what's there.
12
13
It's nobody else's business, so what
Q.
Where specifically was it in
the duty centre, those effects?
14
A.
I don't know if you ever saw
15
a -- you come in the front door and it's right
16
there.
17
desk, and all is a room right beside it on that.
It's about 20 feet, there is a duty centre
18
Q.
Where in the room --
19
A.
There is a locker in the room
20
and things were locked up inside the room.
21
22
Q.
Do you remember what was in
A.
No, not by heart.
there?
23
It was not
24
much, a couple of uniforms.
I remember there was
25
shaving, there was shampoo, mouthwash, a couple of
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other stuff like that, not much at all.
2
3
Q.
Was there any medication
A.
Not that I remember.
there?
4
I would
5
have passed that on -- first of all, I would have
6
passed that on to Major Jared if there would have
7
been anything like that.
8
9
Q.
initial story.
Let us continue with your
First of all, just to situate us in
10
time, you had the interview with the NIS on the
11
17th, which was the Monday following the death.
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
With respect to the
14
interview, would you be able to situate us in time
15
as to when the inventory of the room in the
16
quarters was done?
17
18
A.
No, I don't remember what
time of day they came and talked to me.
19
Q.
Was it on the same day that
21
A.
Yes.
22
Q.
Everything was done on the
A.
Yes.
20
23
you did the --
17th.
24
25
He didn't have much
stuff in his room, so it didn't take us long to do
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it.
It was very fast.
2
3
Q.
Was it before or after the
interview, do you remember?
4
A.
No, I do not remember that.
5
It was before lunch, I can tell you that.
6
before lunch.
7
up.
8
9
It was
I remember that because he showed
Q.
So the interview was at 1:30
p.m., so it must have been before.
Can you take
10
us, then, what happened next after you did these
11
two inventories that you mentioned?
12
A.
When we did the inventory,
13
what we do is we separate anything that is military
14
and that is civilian clothing wise, anything that
15
would belong to him, anything that belongs to DND.
16
So once we do that, we do the inventory and then I
17
phone the clothing stores. I make an appointment
18
with them to return all personal effects that would
19
belong to him.
20
Q.
To return to where?
21
A.
To clothing stores.
That's
22
where get issued all our military gear and all
23
that, so I made an appointment with them to return
24
because usually any six items or more we need an
25
appointment because it takes more time, so I phone
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ahead of time.
I just told them I had somebody to
2
return stuff and that was fine.
3
Q.
So you did that.
4
A.
Yes.
5
Q.
And then?
6
A.
Then I asked him if he had a
7
locker because we are assigned a personal locker at
8
the unit, so this is to store all your extra
9
military gear in it and things like that.
We could
10
not find one, so what I did was I went to all the
11
CQs in the regiment quartermasters and I asked him,
12
I said, "In your lines, do you have a locker with
13
Corporal Langridge's name on it?"
14
And we did a bit of search and
15
they came back to me squadron by squadron saying,
16
"No, we do not have one."
17
that because we returned all his military gear, so
18
by returning all the military gear, that's means he
19
had nothing left accounted for.
20
Q.
21
military gear stuff?
22
A.
And I was happy with
What about all his non-
In the room, he didn't have
23
that much stuff in there.
I was very surprised
24
because usually when a member has a room, there is
25
lots, like, he has everything in there, but in this
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case, there was not that much in his personal room.
2
In his locker below, I think there
3
was a bag with personal effect that we counted with
4
the rest of the stuff because it was not that much.
5
6
Q.
What about the things that
were stored pursuant to padre's intervention?
7
A.
Pardon?
8
Q.
What about the things that
9
you mentioned earlier that were stored there?
10
11
Stored, yes, but it wasn't
Q.
You mentioned there was a
that much.
12
13
A.
stool, there was an arm chair, there was a --
14
A.
Oh no, that's from his
15
quarters.
That's not from the -- that was dropped
16
there from the padre and the mother, so that was
17
accounted -- I think we started on Wednesday.
18
not sure too sure exactly what day we started, but
19
I think it was on Wednesday we started counting all
20
those effects that we had locked up prior to that.
21
22
I'm
Q.
Can you tell us about that
A.
Okay.
process?
23
It was big because it
24
was approximately one sea container full of effects
25
that we had there, so it was quite a bit of stuff.
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2
Q.
Can you describe what is a
A.
Sea container is a 20-foot
sea container?
3
4
container long by 8-feet high by 8-feet wide, so
5
that's what I acquired from other regiment and we
6
purchased it and we stored his personal effects in
7
it.
8
Q.
How did you manage this?
9
A.
How we did the inventory is
10
we took all the big equipment.
11
there was boxes that are 4-feet by 4-feet.
12
tried to identify that that was box No. 2 or 3,
13
whatever it was.
14
If it was a box,
We
If it was big items like TVs and
15
all that, well, we put that as one unit, so this
16
way when I'm looking for something, I can pinpoint
17
exactly what number of box it is and all that.
18
When it was pictures like that, we
19
just wrote box, like, with pictures.
20
count every picture or anything like that.
21
that was redundant to do it all like that.
22
I didn't
To me
If it was a file with stuff, we
23
just wrote "file" and what the file was.
24
count everything inside that file.
25
Q.
We didn't
Did you do the inventory
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yourself?
2
A.
The first one, I was there
3
most of the time.
They gave me all the sheets and
4
we input them into computer.
5
Q.
Who was they?
6
A.
I did most of it and I had my
7
8
9
Corporal Haas that worked in the office beside me.
He helped type them and all that, and I
reconfirmed what was written on that sheet to make
10
sure that it matched what was written, what was
11
typed.
I confirmed that 100 per cent.
12
13
Q.
You mentioned first
inventory, who else worked on this first inventory?
14
A.
First inventory there was
15
myself, Corporal Haas, Corporal Primer (ph),
16
Corporal Leblanc.
17
18
The other two I don't remember.
We asked for volunteers because there was a lot of
stuff to count.
19
Q.
What was the second name you
21
A.
I don't remember his name.
22
Q.
May I suggest Rohmer?
23
A.
Rohmer.
24
Q.
Before we go further with
20
25
mentioned?
Sorry, yes.
this, why did you mention a first inventory?
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A.
Because we got asked to do a
2
second one and a third one.
3
we did is we were looking for the will.
4
when we went through and all the box that had files
5
in it or loose paper, anything, they brought them
6
to my office and then I personally went through to
7
check for a will.
8
sure that nothing goes wrong.
9
10
Q.
We will get to that in
A.
That's what we did the second
Q.
Okay.
A.
And the third one we were
I just wanted to
understand --
15
16
I had a witness with me to make
one.
13
14
That's
sequence.
11
12
The second one, what
asked by Captain Angell at the time to do it.
17
Q.
So let's speak about the
18
first inventory.
19
Rohmer's involvement in it?
20
Can you tell us about Corporal
A.
He was just a person that was
21
counting with the other guys I had.
He was nothing
22
special.
23
and usually we always take our staff to help count
24
that.
He is one of my staff that we had there
25
Q.
Did he stay on during the
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whole process?
2
A.
No.
The first count he did,
3
yes, but I don't remember exactly what date that I
4
removed him.
5
Corporal Langridge's wife at the time, common law
6
wife.
7
didn't ask him that.
8
talking with Corporal Rohmer?@
9
her name but he said, "Corporal Langridge's common
10
At one time, I met -- I forget
When I met, I asked who was this person.
law wife."
I
I asked, "Who is the person
And he mentioned
I said AOkay.@
11
I didn't think it was appropriate
12
for her to be in our warehouse when nothing was
13
settled at the time with the mom and her who was
14
getting what and all that, so what I did was I went
15
upstairs to talk to my OC, Major Jared, and I asked
16
him for his advice saying, "How do I handle this
17
situation?
18
come in anymore or vice versa?"
Do I tell her directly, no, she cannot
19
By the time I came back down, she
20
was gone already, so what I did was I took Corporal
21
Rohmer in and I told him that she could not come in
22
here anymore without approval from Major Jared.
23
That's the last issue I ever had.
24
in my warehouse ever after that.
25
Q.
I never saw her
When you saw her, can you
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describe physically where she was, where was
2
Corporal Rohmer, and where were the effects?
3
A.
No problem.
When you come
4
into our main office, as soon as you come out the
5
door, she was sitting right there.
6
his desk was and his personal effect were at the
7
edge of the warehouse by the last door locked up in
8
a cage.
9
probably about, I would say, 30 yards away from his
10
That's where they were and so she is
personal effect.
11
12
Was the inventory being done
A.
Oh no, it was all complete at
Q.
The first inventory was
A.
I'm pretty sure because it
the time.
15
16
Q.
at the time?
13
14
That's where
finished.
17
18
only took two to three days to do the first
19
inventory.
20
21
Q.
So when you mentioned that
you removed Corporal Rohmer from the inventory --
22
A.
I didn't want him to have any
23
contact with his effect and all that, so since he
24
was -- that's when I realized he was good friends
25
with Corporal Langridge and his wife.
I didn't ask
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him if he was very close to her or not, but to me
2
that was a no-no.
3
just removed him from having access to anything
4
else.
5
6
When I saw her right away, I
Q.
Did you explain to Corporal
Rohmer what was your reasoning?
7
A.
I just told him that it was
8
unacceptable for having her there because the
9
conflict was not resolved between who was getting
10
what at the time.
11
Q.
Would you remember with as
12
many details as possible your conversation about
13
this with Major Jared?
14
A.
When I went to see Major
15
Jared, we talked maybe for about two minutes or so,
16
two to three minutes, and I just asked him how he
17
can advise me of how I would deal with it directly,
18
do I talk to her or do I talk to him.
19
That's my main concern because I
20
have no legal authority over her, but over him,
21
since he worked in my section, I had a lot of legal
22
issue that I can deal with on that part and that
23
was my concern.
24
can't come in here, vice versa, and that's why I
25
asked him.
You now, am I able to say no, you
More details, I don't remember.
It
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has been a long time, but that's approximately what
2
I remember.
3
Q.
So from your answer, do I
4
understand correctly that he told you not to speak
5
to Rebecca -- or the common law wife -- but to
6
Corporal Rohmer?
7
8
A.
Q.
You mentioned that you
haven't seen the common law wife there anymore?
11
12
I remember him telling
me to tell Corporal Rohmer to not invite her.
9
10
No.
A.
No, that's the first time I
ever saw her there.
13
Q.
Are you aware of any other
14
involvement that she would have had with any of the
15
personal effects there?
16
17
A.
No.
While I was there, she
had no involvement at all.
18
Q.
What about computer?
19
A.
Yes, I remember the computer.
20
I got a request through Major Jared to release the
21
computer to Lieutenant Brown at the time.
22
the assisting officer to Rebecca -- I think I
23
remember her name now -- and that's it.
24
I remember.
25
He was
That's all
I personally dropped the computer
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off to Lieutenant Brown's office and I picked it up
2
two and a half days later, like, on the third day
3
because he passed on to me that it was not working.
4
5
They tried, they said, several times and it did
not work.
6
7
Did he say this to you when
A.
Yes.
you picked it up?
8
9
Q.
First of all, I
contacted to see if he was done with it because it
10
does belong to my inventory and that's when he
11
mentioned it was not working.
12
13
Q.
Did it come to your knowledge
why they needed access to the computer?
14
A.
Yes.
I got the request
15
through Major Jared saying that they were looking
16
for pictures to delete, some inappropriate
17
pictures, and they were looking for pictures for
18
the funeral at the time.
19
That's all I got told.
Q.
You mentioned the second
21
A.
Yes.
22
Q.
Can you tell us about that?
23
A.
The second inventory was
20
inventory.
24
mostly looking for his will.
They could not find a
25
new will in the paperwork upstairs in the orderly
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room and they asked me to check all of his
2
paperwork to make sure there was no will in there
3
at all.
4
I had mentioned to them that when
5
we did our first check we did not see any loose
6
paper as a will, so that's why I personally asked
7
to -- any box that had paperwork in it, to have it
8
in my office and then I would go through it with
9
somebody and go through every piece of paper to
10
make sure that it wasn't something that could be
11
slid in or in the back page or something like that.
12
13
Q.
with looking for the will?
14
15
Who was it that tasked you
A.
Major Jared.
16
That would have came through
He is the only one that can task me.
Q.
Do you remember what he told
17
you about the general situation why they were
18
looking for a will?
19
20
A.
up-to-date will upstairs.
21
22
They couldn't find an
Q.
That's all I had heard.
Were you aware if there was a
not up-to-date will or were you not aware?
23
A.
It's not my department, so to
24
me, they asked me something to do and I just did
25
it.
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2
Q.
You said you were accompanied
A.
Yes, it could have been
by someone.
3
4
Master Warrant Officer Proctor (ph) or Lieutenant
5
Brown.
6
but it was one of those two that was in my office.
I don't remember which one I had talked to,
7
Q.
When you mentioned Lieutenant
8
Brown, would that have been the assisting officer
9
to the common law wife?
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
Can you situate that request
12
or that tasking in time with respect to the passing
13
away of --
14
A.
No, I can't -- it would have
15
been within the month afterwards.
16
specific on a date.
17
Q.
Sorry.
Could you situate it in time
18
with respect to the funeral?
19
after?
20
A.
21
funeral.
22
of the funeral.
I can't be
Was it before or
Oh yes, it was after the
Oh no, sorry.
I don't remember the date
Sorry.
23
Q.
Did you attend the funeral?
24
A.
Yes, I did attend the
25
funeral.
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2
Q.
So you don't remember if the
search for the will was before or after?
3
A.
No, I do not remember that.
4
Q.
In the effects that you
5
inventoried, did you ever inventory or see a
6
samurai sword?
7
A.
The only sword I saw -- I
8
don't know if they are samurai -- but it was a set
9
of three swords on wooden plaque, and inventory we
10
had put it in as set of three.
11
I remember seeing.
12
other ones besides that.
13
14
That's the only one
I don't remember seeing any
Q.
After the first inventory was
finished, who had access to the effects?
15
A.
The keys were locked up in
16
our safe where we keep our credit cards for our
17
purchaser and it was Captain Evans, my QM, Sergeant
18
Stevenson and Corporal Haas.
19
three that had access to the safe.
20
21
Q.
They were the only
Do I understand that you did
not have access --
22
A.
I had no reason to have it.
23
I don't buy the stuff.
I tell him to buy it, so
24
I'm the one that gives him -- they buy it, so they
25
have Section 32 and I tell them to buy it so I had
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Section 33.
2
Q.
You mentioned before that
3
Major Jared with respect to the Committee of
4
Adjustment.
5
Can you tell us about that?
A.
The Committee of Adjustment
6
is the team -- usually you get the president.
That
7
was at the time Major Jared.
8
Doucette that takes care of all the administration,
9
paperwork that goes out to everybody, and I was for
There was Warrant
10
the regiment quartermaster.
11
care of the inventory and all that, so that's part
12
of our team.
13
I'm the one that takes
We sit down only once or twice,
14
but the first time we sat down, the three of us, we
15
just understood what our role within the Committee
16
of Adjustment was.
17
the first one I had done it.
18
approximately a month before that, so it was very
19
easy to do.
20
21
Q.
I said yes because it was not
We just had done one
What was your role within the
Committee of Adjustment?
22
A.
To make sure that everything
23
is inventoried from this room, from all his locker
24
and everything else like that.
25
we had a bit more because we had all his personal
In this situation
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effect from the housing so it took longer than
2
expected.
3
Q.
You mentioned you met twice.
4
A.
Yes, we met twice.
5
Major Jared we sat down twice to discuss.
6
7
Me and
Q.
What was the second meeting
A.
The second one, it was
about?
8
9
approximately five, six weeks afterwards that we
10
had started to see if we had everything in hand,
11
any issues, anything missing, if Warrant Doucette
12
had anything on her part that anything she was
13
missing or on my part if I was missing anything at
14
all and that's when I just told him that no, I had
15
all his equipment I had in possession.
16
locked up, it was good to go.
17
Q.
18
at the meeting or --
19
A.
It was all
Were all three of you present
The first one, no.
I could
20
not make it all three of us together, so we talked
21
to Warrant Doucette together and then me and him
22
sat around, and the second time the three of us
23
were together.
24
25
Q.
Let me now take you to the
contacts you had with the National Investigation
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Service with the Military Police.
We know by this
2
witness statement that you were interviewed on the
3
17th in the afternoon.
4
day?
You recall it was on that
5
A.
Yes.
6
Q.
Did you have any prior
7
contact with the Military Police in this regard
8
before?
9
10
A.
No, that was the first time I
got contacted that day by --
11
Q.
So how did you get contacted?
12
A.
I think it was a phone call
13
and -- no, it was not a phone call.
14
told me that they were coming to see me and they
15
showed up at my office.
16
17
Q.
Can you tell us about that
A.
Yes, he came in, he
encounter?
18
19
Major Jared
introduced himself, he was in civilian clothing.
20
Q.
Was that one person?
21
A.
No, there were two of them.
22
I don't know who the other person was.
23
corporal.
24
himself, very polite, very good.
It was a
So we sat in my office, introduced
25
He told me he was investigating
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for Corporal Langridge, all that, and he asked me
2
the equipment that I have and I told him I had all
3
his personal effects from the quarters, from the
4
duty centre and what we had here in storage.
5
6
7
Our meeting didn't last that long.
I don't remember how it was but maybe 15 minutes,
20 minutes max or so.
8
Q.
Do you remember the name?
9
A.
Master Corporal Ritco.
10
Q.
Did he explain why he needed
A.
Usually that's the standard.
11
to talk to you?
12
13
To me I was not surprised because every time that
14
somebody had committed a suicide, they always came
15
and ask me.
16
their part, so it's a standard procedure on that
17
part, so I was not surprised when he came and
18
talked to me.
19
20
They always have to investigate on
Q.
Were the personal effects
discussed at this occasion?
21
A.
I told him that I had the
22
stuff from his room, from the duty centre and I had
23
his stuff from his home.
24
25
Q.
Did you provide any inventory
to --
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A.
2
provided it to him, but I should have.
3
did, but I can't say I did or not.
4
Q.
I do not remember if I
I think I
Was there any discussion of
5
possibly any items that they would have had at that
6
time?
7
A.
Yes, I asked him if he had
8
items.
I talked to him, I said, "I will send you
9
an official e-mail to keep track of it," so I
10
remember later on that I sent him an e-mail saying
11
when would it be possible to receive all those
12
items that he had.
13
up 13 items that they had and they kept four or
14
five items and I don't remember exactly what they
15
kept though.
16
17
Q.
And one time I went and picked
Was a suicide note ever
discussed or brought up in these discussions?
18
A.
Pardon?
19
Q.
Was a suicide note ever
A.
No, I did not hear about that
20
brought up --
21
22
till recently.
Somebody had mentioned it, but I
23
never heard that at the time.
24
I had asked him was if he had the will.
25
the one e-mail that I had sent him, any paperwork
The only thing that
That was
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that he head, if a will copy was found.
2
Q.
And you received an answer?
3
A.
I would have to check my
4
e-mail.
I'm pretty sure I did get an answer, but
5
they did not find the will.
6
7
Q.
Was
that discussed whether they had anything like that?
8
9
What about medication?
A.
That did not pertain to me,
so I wouldn't have asked that.
10
Q.
I'm going to take you to sort
11
of simultaneously or one after another to three
12
tabs that deal with the effects held by the NIS.
13
There is tab 5.
14
31st of October:
The first page just says on the
15
"A letter was drafted and
16
sent to the Commanding
17
Officer of the LdSH
18
requesting that Corporal
19
Langridge's personal effects
20
be returned to the estate."
21
And then on the other page, there
22
is the letter there.
23
of evidence."
24
Watson.
25
Watson is?
It says "Request for disposal
It is signed by Master Warrant
Do you know who Master Warrant Officer
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A.
I met him once at the NIS.
2
That's all I can say.
3
and all that.
4
5
Q.
addressed to you.
6
7
I don't know what he does
This letter obviously is not
Were you aware of this letter?
A.
That's the 13 items they had.
Yes, I got this letter and it said that the 13
8
items that they had in possession and I put that in
9
my notes later on saying that they had those items.
10
Q.
Did you expect this list to
11
be complete?
Did you expect that there would be
12
any outstanding items that wouldn't be included in
13
this list?
14
A.
To me that was a complete
15
letter.
I did not expect -- I respected their
16
restriction that they are the Military Police.
17
When they gave me their list, to me that was their
18
list.
19
items than that.
That's all.
20
Q.
I was not expecting any more
If the NIS was in possession
21
of a suicide note at the time, would you have
22
expected for it to be listed in this list?
23
24
A.
I never had that issue
before, so I wouldn't have expected it, no.
25
Q.
So now I take you to tab 7
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that pre-dates this letter quite awhile.
We saw
2
that the letter is dated October 2008.
3
the proceedings of the Committee of Adjustment.
4
When you go to page 3 of 3, you see three
5
signatures.
Tab 7 is
Can you see it?
6
A.
Yes, in the middle.
7
Q.
Do you recognize the middle
8
signature to be your own?
9
A.
That is my own, yes.
10
Q.
It's dated the 28th of March.
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
Paragraph 7 says:
13
"Items outstanding.
The NIS
14
have approximately thirteen
15
items in support of their
16
active investigation.
17
inventory of these items has
18
not been provided.
19
Corporal Ritco is the lead
20
investigator in this case."
An
Master
21
A.
Yes, correct.
22
Q.
Do we understand that by the
23
28th of March, you had no idea what the 13 items
24
were?
25
A.
No, I knew there were 13
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items; I didn't have a list yet.
2
Q.
Let me now take you to tab
3
10, this is in between.
4
e-mail exchange about a week after the signature of
5
the proceedings of the COA.
6
Basically this is an
On the first page, the bottom
7
e-mail, it's from yourself to Master Corporal
8
Ritco.
9
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
It says:
11
"Could you send me a list of
12
what was kept so I could
13
include it in my inventory
14
(with quantities).
15
you."
16
17
Thank
That's what you were telling us
about.
18
A.
Yes.
19
Q.
The answer is on the top.
20
It's dated 3rd of April.
It says:
21
"Sir, after going through my
22
evidence here, the only
23
things that I feel that are
24
of a personal effect would be
25
as follows."
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1
2
3
4
And he listed four items:
A
Blackberry, an AA book, a bible and get well cards.
Here are four items, and before, he had stated
that there were 13 items.
5
A.
Thirteen, yes.
6
Q.
Later, we know that he
7
actually forwarded 13 items.
8
something out of this, the fact that it was only
9
four here instead of 13?
10
Did you make
Did you make any
follow-up?
11
A.
Yes.
What I did was you see
12
the e-mail I sent to Major Jared right on top and
13
he is the president of Committee of Adjustment, so
14
I cannot task the Military Police to give me all
15
those items, so I did the proper thing, chain of
16
command.
17
Adjustment, so I sent him the e-mail.
He is the president of the Committee of
18
I didn't write nothing in it
19
because it was information and then it was for him
20
to deal with at the higher level for the other
21
items.
22
inventory the items, not to yell at people because
23
I don't have them.
It was not up to me.
24
25
Q.
My job is to
That's not my job.
Between this e-mail which you
send on the 7th, you forwarded on the 7th, and the
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letter that you didn't receive but the letter they
2
sent about the release of the 13 items at the end
3
of October, did you have any involvement with NIS
4
in between?
5
6
A.
Not that I remember at all.
I don't remember contacting them between that time.
7
Q.
After the 21st of October, do
8
you remember whether these 13 items were returned
9
to you, and if so, when?
10
A.
There is a date and it should
11
be in there, the date that I signed for those -- I
12
personally went up and signed for it because I
13
didn't want no burdens to be on my young corporals,
14
master corporals, so I personally went up there
15
when I got the confirmation and I don't know if I
16
got it from Major Jared or Master Corporal Ritco
17
saying they were released, ready for me to pick up,
18
but I personally went up.
19
remember.
20
signing for it.
The dates, I do not
It should be in here because I remember
21
Q.
Besides these 13 items, did
22
you have any dealings with the NIS with respect to
23
Corporal Langridge's personal effects?
24
A.
25
Yes.
That same week after he
passed away, I was called in in reference to his
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vehicle.
2
up my own self.
3
back hatchback was broken.
4
I personally went up there and picked it
The vehicle was not clean.
The
We had to tie it down.
The front driver tire air was, let's say,
5
three-quarters full, not quite all the way, and
6
when we did our safety walk around the vehicle, we
7
checked every tire and that is the only tire that
8
was bad on that side and they pointed out to me
9
that the hatchback on the back was not secured and
10
all that and it could not be locked.
11
Q.
Was there anything else
12
besides the vehicle?
13
A.
Not that I remember.
14
Q.
I can take you to tab 4.
15
This is Master Corporal Ritco's report about the
16
release of the items that were not kept by the NIS
17
to yourself.
18
next page is a document transit and receipt.
19
you recognize your signature on that document?
It's dated 20th of March, 2008.
20
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
Then there is a list
22
attached.
The
Do
It references evidence bag?
23
A.
Yes, because every evidence
24
was in the bag, so that's why they call it bag of
25
evidence.
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2
Q.
What is called evidence bag,
this was the 13 items?
3
A.
Yes, it was, yes.
4
Q.
So not what was returned to
A.
No, there was five items plus
5
you on the 20th.
6
7
these 13 items were extra to those five items, I
8
think.
9
Q.
This document which is called
10
personal collection log at tab 4 which lists these
11
13 items, when would you have seen it or would you
12
have seen it?
13
A.
I saw it when I signed it,
14
when they called me up to sign for it, and it would
15
have been on that day, the 20th of March, that's
16
when I saw it.
17
Q.
It seems to me that what you
18
signed what's called Adocument transit and
19
receipt,@ it lists three things, right?
20
inventory list of personal effects in favour of
21
Corporal Langridge.
It lists
22
A.
Yes.
23
Q.
So this particular item here
24
that is called inventory list of personal effects
25
--
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A.
But there was 13 items, like,
2
some bag had five or six items in it, but the 13
3
items that were on page 229 and 230, that's the 13
4
items that were within those bags.
5
Q.
But my understanding from
6
what we discussed previously is that you did not
7
receive these until after October 2008.
8
9
Yes, it wouldn't have been
Q.
Because this is dated 20th
A.
It could have been.
that early.
10
11
A.
March, 2008.
12
Yes, I
13
remember on the 13 items, I picked up at a later
14
date.
15
remember them contacting me to go pick them up, but
16
the date exactly, I don't remember.
I don't remember exactly what date, but I
17
18
Q.
Was it on the same date as
A.
No, the jeep was the same
the jeep or not?
19
20
week after because the jeep was parked at his
21
quarters so I went and picked it up there.
22
items, I didn't pick up until way later.
23
remember the exact date.
24
25
Q.
The 13
I don't
I don't remember.
Would it make sense in your
time line in your memory that it was before or
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after October 2008?
2
A.
3
the dates.
4
remember exactly.
I'm trying to think there.
5
6
That I don't remember exactly
Q.
No, I don't
On that document that is
signed on the 20th, the third item, it says:
7
"Gold lock without keys that
8
was cut at LdSH HQ by Master
9
Corporal Ritco on 15 March."
10
(As read).
11
Do you know what that refers to?
12
A.
No, I do not know.
13
Q.
You don't remember that item?
14
A.
By heart, no, I do not
15
remember that item.
16
17
Q.
Do you remember discussing
the computer with the NIS?
18
A.
Yes.
I told him we had a
19
computer and they said, no, they didn't want to see
20
it.
21
22
Q.
Why did you tell them that
you had a computer?
23
A.
Because I thought it would
24
pertain to the investigation.
All their stuff that
25
was in my warehouse, they didn't know what I had,
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so I just mentioned to him that we boxed up a
2
computer and all that and they said, no, didn't
3
want to see it, because it wasn't found within the
4
area where he was so...
5
Q.
Who told you this?
6
A.
Master Corporal Ritco told me
7
he didn't want it.
8
Q.
Because it was not found in
9
the area where Corporal Langridge was?
10
A.
No, that was afterwards.
I
11
talked to somebody else and they said that's why --
12
I was talking to one of my friends afterwards and
13
he said if it's not found within the area, it had
14
nothing to do with the situation at the time, so I
15
never pursued it.
16
him, I just dismissed it.
17
It's not my job.
Q.
Once I asked
So the friend that you talked
18
about this with had nothing to do with the NIS
19
afterwards?
20
21
A.
No, he was not.
He was out
Q.
When you discussed the
of the military.
22
23
computer with the NIS, was it before or after the
24
you have given access or possibility of access to
25
the computer to --
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2
A.
I think it was after.
I'm
pretty sure, like, 90 per cent it was afterwards.
3
Q.
Did you mention this
4
circumstance to the NIS when you spoke to them
5
about the computer, do you remember?
6
A.
No.
7
Q.
I'm going to take you again
8
to the witness statement that was drafted from your
9
interview.
Paragraph 1g, it states --
10
A.
Sorry.
What page?
11
Q.
It's tab 3.
12
A.
Okay.
13
Q.
It states:
1g, yes.
14
"Ms Hamilton-Tree --"
15
Who is Rebecca or the common law
16
wife.
17
"-- and Corporal Langridge's
18
mother have now started to
19
quarrel over issues
20
pertaining to
21
Langridge."
Corporal
22
Do you remember --
23
A.
How I heard about this?
24
Q.
Yes.
25
A.
Major Jared is the one that
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discussed it with me and he said none of the mother
2
or the common law wife are supposed to come into my
3
warehouse at all without him knowing about it and
4
that's when he passed it on to me, so if one of
5
them would have came out to my shop, I would have
6
known.
7
Q.
When did he tell you this?
8
A.
I don't remember the exact
9
date, but I remember him talking to me one on one
10
and telling me this.
11
remember.
12
Q.
The date exactly, I do not
Could you situate it?
You
13
mentioned that you saw Ms Hamilton-Tree within the
14
regimental lines where the effects were, could you
15
tell us if this discussion with Major Jared
16
occurred after or before?
17
A.
I can't pinpoint the date,
18
but I knew there was quarrel at the time, so I
19
would have to say that I knew they were quarrelling
20
before when I saw her in there, that Major Jared
21
told me about it before.
22
that out in my head because that's why I went up --
23
as soon as I found out who she was, I went
24
upstairs, talked to Major Jared about it.
25
Q.
I would have to figure
So if I restate what you say,
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tell me if I'm correct, when you saw Ms
2
Hamilton-Tree, you knew already that there were
3
quarrels between the mother and herself?
4
A.
Except I didn't know it was
5
her at the spot.
I only found out when I asked my
6
sergeant who that was because usually some wives or
7
girlfriends will come and visit people right before
8
lunch, like, 15 minutes or so, but I remember it
9
was between coffee break and lunch, so it was odd
10
for me to have a person sit there that didn't
11
belong to my shop.
12
she was sitting there.
13
Q.
I'm pretty sure I knew before
Besides speaking with Major
14
Jared about this, did you have any other sources of
15
information about the situation between the two?
16
A.
No, he was my main link on
17
anything.
It didn't matter if somebody else told
18
me.
19
my chain of command on this issue.
I only believe what he told me because he was
20
21
Q.
You mentioned that there was
a third inventory.
22
A.
Yes.
23
Q.
Can you tell us about that?
24
A.
I was not there at the time.
25
I was tasked out to another unit.
I was
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double-hatted.
I was the RQ for this unit, but I
2
was also working for the brigade for a major
3
exercise that we were going on.
4
My permanent days was not at my
5
desk every time.
6
with them, I still made sure that they were
7
following stuff legally and all that.
8
the regiment at the time.
9
10
Q.
Okay.
I was not at
So what did you know
about this third inventory?
11
12
Even though I still kept in touch
A.
It was called by Captain
Angell at the time.
13
Q.
Who was...
14
A.
He was the adj to the unit
15
and he requested a third inventory because some of
16
the items were not matching the inventory list.
17
That's what I got told.
18
team and he made sure that a third one was done up
19
on all the items that were there.
20
Q.
Sergeant Stevenson led the
Do I take from what you are
21
telling us is that you were not present at all
22
during that time?
23
24
A.
No, the third inventory list,
I was not present at all for any inventory at all.
25
Q.
When did this happen?
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A.
It would have had to be
2
between March and July because that's when I was
3
not at the unit.
4
Q.
Of what year?
5
A.
Of 2009, if I remember.
6
Q.
What happened with the
7
effects between the second and first inventories
8
and March, July 2009?
9
A.
As soon as we got the locker
10
and it was warm enough outside because I had a sea
11
container, a 20-foot by 28-feet by 8-foot
12
container, we stored all his personal effect in a
13
sea container that we had inside the warehouse,
14
locked it up.
15
three personnel access to it.
16
The keys was in our safe with those
We put another sea can right
17
beside it, backed up his vehicle in between the two
18
sea containers and put a -- it's called a Paul
19
Bunyan -- it's 8-feet high by 4-feet by 8-feet high
20
also, so nobody can see the vehicle, nobody would
21
know it's there at all because usually we don't
22
have personal vehicle in our compound, so we did
23
that.
24
frame.
It must have been the April or May time
25
Q.
What about the release of the
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effects?
2
A.
We had all our stuff pretty
3
well ready to go early.
4
some of the NIS items that we hadn't received yet,
5
and as I was away, I saw an e-mail saying that our
6
stuff was ready but we had received an e-mail from,
7
I think it was, the mother, I'm not too sure, or
8
their lawyer saying that they want all the
9
equipment to be delivered at one time altogether,
10
We were still waiting for
all that.
11
I don't know exactly what date did
12
we get that, but I remember seeing traffic on that
13
by e-mail requesting that they get all their
14
equipment all that once but we had it ready except
15
the NIS stuff.
16
Q.
17
the effects being required by the BOI?
18
A.
19
Do you recall anything with
No.
I was away at the time,
so I didn't see no --
20
Q.
If anything was requested
21
from the effects, were these effects still under
22
your authority on your supervision?
23
A.
Yes, till July of 2009, they
24
were under my authority and they would have only
25
been released through Major Jared.
Nothing would
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have been released besides his approval.
2
3
Q.
What about your approval?
Was your approval needed to --
4
A.
As soon as I get the approval
5
from Major Jared, I would just forward my e-mail to
6
Sergeant Stevenson that had access to the keys and
7
since I was not there and I would have explained
8
what was on, but after July, I was not in charge
9
anymore.
10
I was not the regiment quartermaster; I
was out of that loop.
11
Q.
Let me see if I understand
12
correctly.
When you say that they were under your
13
authority, does that mean that you yourself did not
14
have authority to release them?
15
A.
No, I do not have authority
16
to release them without the president of the COA,
17
Committee of Adjustment.
18
19
Q.
When you say that they were
under your authority, what does that imply?
20
A.
We follow a chain of command,
21
so my young guys work for the sergeant, the
22
sergeant works for me and I work for the major.
23
If I'm gone for a two week
24
exercise or course or anything like that, they
25
still listen to my authority while I'm away, so
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they listen to me.
2
section.
3
4
A.
No, I was not part of the
MS CERNACEK:
questions.
Those are my
Thank you.
9
10
Were you involved in the
unit at all when they released it.
7
8
Q.
release itself?
5
6
I'm the authority for my
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Colonel Drapeau?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU
11
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU:
12
Q.
Thank you.
Your actual chain of command
13
was to Captain Evans who was the regimental
14
quartermaster.
Did I get this right?
15
A.
Yes, sir.
16
Q.
How involved was she in your
17
day-to-day activities?
18
A.
No, we chatted everyday.
19
Usually that's my motto.
Always keep communication
20
with your supervisor and your peers and people that
21
work for you.
22
going on so I always advise her of what's going on,
23
things like that, and usually we talk for a couple
24
of minutes everyday, if not longer.
25
days we didn't have a chance, but as much as we
This way you always know what's
There are some
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could, we always communicated.
2
Q.
During your tour, because you
3
alluded to suicide, this was not the first one.
4
How many of those would you have been involved in?
5
6
A.
With LdSH, that was my only
Q.
I mention also because I got
one.
7
8
a bit confused, maybe I wasn't listening properly
9
between headquarters squadron and administrative
10
squadron.
Are they the same?
11
A.
Yes.
They are one of the
12
same but the headquarters comes in with the
13
administration.
14
15
Q.
So the squadron overall is
administrative squadron.
16
A.
Yes, sir.
17
Q.
A portion of it is looking
18
after the headquarter portion?
19
A.
Exactly.
20
Q.
When you came back from
21
exercise and you found out on your walk to work on
22
that particular morning that all of a sudden that
23
you inherited -- if I can use that term -- a lot of
24
stuff that was of personal nature.
25
alluded to, among other things, that you saw a
You have
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chair in there.
2
3
A.
it.
Yes, I did, yes.
I counted
I remember putting it on the inventory.
4
Q.
Nice looking chair?
5
A.
It's a vinyl black chair with
6
a round stool it looked like.
7
Q.
Fairly big?
8
A.
It's just bit bigger than
9
this, taller, like longer back in the back.
10
11
Q.
But even after four years,
you have a recollection of that.
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
You have little recollection
14
about the samurai sword except you saw a plaque
15
with three of them.
16
A.
I would say 18-inch plaque.
17
On it was a sword.
18
are attached to it so you can remove the sword.
19
There was a set of three.
20
21
Q.
How big are the swords?
I
have seen some small --
22
23
You can remove the seats that
A.
I would say close to 3-feet,
approximately that big.
24
Q.
A big one.
25
A.
Yes, and the other ones were
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two smaller ones.
2
Q.
As far as you are concerned,
3
the time certainly before Stuart's passing, he
4
would clearly have been the owner of all of these
5
swords?
6
A.
Exactly.
7
Q.
No question.
8
A.
No questions, ye.
9
Q.
Following his passing, who
10
would you have considered as being the owner of
11
those?
12
13
A.
The Committee of Adjustment
would be the owner.
14
Q.
When the first inventory was
15
done, you said, correctly me if I'm wrong, that
16
Corporal Rohmer was one of those.
17
A.
Part of team, yes, sir.
18
Q.
How did he get there?
19
A.
He is part of my section.
20
is a combat storeman at the time.
21
our section for, I would say, 18 months, maybe
22
longer, I'm not too sure.
23
are part of my shop so that we kept everything
24
together.
25
Q.
He
He has been with
So I picked teams that
So he already in fact was
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part of your team.
2
itself --
He was already in the warehouse
3
A.
Yes.
4
Q.
So he wasn't there specific
5
to the inventory --
6
A.
No.
7
Q.
You just picked him.
8
didn't pick the job, you picked him on that
9
particular job.
10
A.
Exactly, yes.
11
Q.
You said that one day,
He
12
Rebecca, you found her sitting alongside in his
13
office?
14
15
A.
Not in his office, it's just
an L-shaped desk in the warehouse.
16
Q.
How in your mind could she
17
have come in there?
18
balances to gain access to buildings, gain access
19
to warehouse or even the base?
20
A.
Are there not checks and
No, in the base, no.
21
can go on base.
22
into the building, she would have had to be signed
23
in or escorted in so that --
24
25
There is no gate.
Anybody
Q.
When you come
Did you know who signed her
in?
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A.
No, I don't.
2
Q.
But she didn't come in by
4
A.
No.
5
Q.
You had the computer.
3
herself.
In
6
fact it was a concern of yours because you even
7
brought it to the attention of the NIS.
8
start it at any given time?
9
operating?
10
A.
No.
Did you
Did you see if it was
We put it in the box
11
because it was loose in the bigger box, but as we
12
put it in the box, the start button sprung out.
13
was already out, so I remember noticing that
14
because I'm the one that help put it in the box.
15
Q.
16
time.
17
inventory.
It
I need to situate that in
When you put it in the box after the first
18
A.
Yes, exactly.
19
Q.
When you delivered the
20
computer to Lieutenant Brown's office, it seems to
21
you as being okay.
22
operating, but the button wasn't --
23
24
A.
I wasn=t suggesting it was
Exactly.
I didn't tell him
if it was running or not because we never tried.
25
Q.
But you recognize the button
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snapping out after.
2
3
A.
when we put it in the box.
4
5
The button was snapped out
Q.
In the box.
That was not the
case when you delivered it to Lieutenant Brown.
6
A.
It was in the box when I
7
delivered it to him.
I didn't put it together.
8
Q.
9
So when you put it in the
box, it's when the button was --
10
A.
We saw the button.
It was
11
sticking out like half inch or something like that
12
and we just tried to put it together because we
13
were putting the rest of the stuff in the box the
14
same time so we just pushed it back in to put the
15
rest in the box.
16
17
Q.
Could you explain to me
because you definitely saw the chair during --
18
A.
Yes.
19
Q.
And somehow the chair went
21
A.
That's what I heard.
22
while I was there, it was still there.
23
Q.
At the first inventory.
24
A.
And it was visible pretty
20
25
missing.
To me,
well till we put the stuff into the sea container.
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Q.
And we know that only a small
2
number of people had access to the keys that gave
3
you access to the cage and eventually the sea
4
container itself.
5
A.
Yes.
6
Q.
Let's go to tab 6 first.
7
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Colonel Drapeau,
8
I just want to make sure I heard right when you
9
asked about the chair.
10
Did you say you saw it go
into the sea container?
11
THE WITNESS:
12
THE CHAIRPERSON:
13
want to make sure I heard that.
Yes.
Okay.
I just
Thank you.
14
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU:
15
Q.
If you look at the top, we
16
don't need to go through the entire chain, but this
17
is an e-mail going from Mr. and Mrs. Fynes to the
18
assisting officer in Victoria in December 2008, so
19
a number of months after you would have had the
20
first and second inventory and you would have moved
21
the stuff into the containers and obviously the
22
chair has not made it.
23
And they had to push on in order
24
to get the chair eventually produced.
There is the
25
chain of e-mails that eventually would show that it
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took a lot of effort on her part to make sure the
2
chair would be delivered to them.
3
to find out --
4
A.
5
THE CHAIRPERSON:
6
Yes.
Which tab,
Colonel?
7
8
I'm just trying
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU:
I'm on tab
6.
9
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Thank you.
10
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU:
11
Q.
You may or may not know.
12
A.
Sergeant Stevenson confirmed
13
that there was a leather chair and a stool, so it
14
was there.
Maybe it was on inventory or --
15
Q.
As far as you are concerned,
17
A.
-- there.
18
Q.
You have visual recollection
16
it was --
19
that it was the time the container was sealed,
20
placed outside, the chair was in there.
21
A.
Yes.
22
Q.
Could you go now to tab 20,
23
please.
I'm looking at the bottom of the page, an
24
exchange between Major Jared and Captain
25
Lubiniecki.
First line:
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"The family was told that
2
Corporal Rohmer and a solider
3
first name Carla are doing
4
the inventory here at the
5
regiment and are disclosing
6
content lists to Rebecca."
7
Would you know who Carla is?
8
A.
She didn't work in my
10
Q.
So she doesn't --
11
A.
No, Corporal Norris, I
9
section.
12
remember she used to work there the first year we
13
got there, but she got moved to SPSS.
14
Q.
So she may have been a friend
15
with Corporal Rohmer but she was not working for
16
you on having access to the inventory.
17
A.
Exactly, yes.
Major Jared,
18
that was after I had mentioned to Major Jared about
19
this situation that --
20
Q.
Were you aware of that at the
21
time that the information -- Corporal Rohmer was
22
disclosing information?
23
A.
No.
I think that came from
24
after I talked to Major Jared about the situation
25
that I had saw Corporal Rohmer with his --
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2
Q.
Did you have a discussion
with Corporal Rohmer?
3
A.
Yes, both of them.
4
Q.
What was the tone of the
A.
They listen, I talk, and
5
conversation?
6
7
that's how it should be.
8
Q.
How an RQ should be.
9
A.
Yes.
I just said it will not
10
happen anymore.
They will not come in here.
11
happens in here stays in here.
12
remember.
That's all I
It was pretty blunt.
13
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU:
14
THE CHAIRPERSON:
15
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU:
16
THE CHAIRPERSON:
17
MS McLAINE:
18
What
Thank you.
Is that it?
That's it.
Ms McLaine?
Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS McLAINE:
19
Q.
I just wanted to start up by
20
trying to see if I could clear up this confusion as
21
to when you received items from the NIS.
22
could turn up tab 4 for me.
23
March 20, 2008, you attended NIS where you signed
24
for Corporal Langridge's personal property.
25
If you
Point 2 states that on
If you turn over to the next page
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that my friend has already brought you to, it
2
indicates other items, other than those 13 items.
3
Would those have been the items that you have
4
signed for on that day?
5
A.
There is five items I signed
6
right off the beginning.
7
Blackberry, two notes, a couple more items.
8
9
Q.
I don't remember.
A
If you turn over to tab 5,
point 2 again is October 31, 2008, and it indicates
10
that you were notified and informed that once
11
approval had been granted, NIS evidence custodian
12
would contact you so you could take possession of
13
Corporal Langridge's effects.
14
A.
Exactly.
15
Q.
Would that have been the
16
timing for those additional 13 items?
17
A.
Thirteen items, yes.
18
Q.
If we turn over to the next
19
page, indeed, it is the letter from Watson with the
20
list of those items that you received.
21
A.
Okay.
22
Q.
If you can also turn up tab
23
25 for me.
If we go close to the bottom of the
24
first page there, under (d), shipment of personal
25
effects, it states that:
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"Finally, Shaun Fynes
2
requested delays in shipment
3
in order to attempt to
4
receive the personal effects
5
in a single shipment instead
6
of multiple ones."
7
Your testimony today was that you
8
recall that there was a delay and were not sure who
9
requested that.
10
Does that refresh your memory?
A.
There was an e-mail on that
11
and I think I remember looking at it that the
12
family requested all shipment all at one time.
13
They didn't want it in parcels.
14
Q.
Thank you.
My friend has
15
asked you about the computer and whether or not it
16
was working and your knowledge of that.
17
correct that prior to Captain Brown coming to you
18
and stating that it was not working, you do not
19
have any idea as to whether or not the computer was
20
working?
21
22
A.
Is it
We never tried the computer.
We just packed it up.
It was visual that the
23
button was broken, or it looked like it was loose,
24
but that's it.
25
job to do that.
We never tried it.
It it's not our
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MS McLAINE:
Those are my
questions.
3
THE CHAIRPERSON:
I guess this is
4
a question to counsel.
5
are listed on the second page, Blackberry,
6
notebook, pamphlets.
7
items that were in the room.
8
is the bible, all those items were in the room, the
9
same room where Corporal Langridge was, correct?
10
11
At tab 5, the items that
As I recall, those are the
MS McLAINE:
As I remember, there
That would be
correct.
12
THE CHAIRPERSON:
What isn't here
13
is a listing of the suicide note.
14
there are any other items that were in that video
15
that are not here besides the suicide note?
16
17
18
MS McLAINE:
Are we aware if
Not to our knowledge.
To our knowledge, the only note that would be
missing from that list would be the suicide note.
19
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU:
I could
20
answer by saying, yes, there were other items.
21
I can draw your attention to it, it was a table, a
22
watch, or rings and various other items, so those
23
are not shown on the list.
24
25
If
But as I said, I'm only going by
memory.
There may be a bit more and there were
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some items of clothing also, not very many.
2
THE CHAIRPERSON:
And there were
3
couple of other personal items and I'm aware of
4
that, but in particular, this is the group that was
5
together where the suicide note was.
6
As I recall on the video, when you
7
flipped over the page, there was something on the
8
back.
9
side of the suicide note?
10
Which document was it that was on the back
Do we know?
Do we
remember?
11
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU:
12
the suicide note?
13
anything.
14
The back of
I don't think there was
THE CHAIRPERSON:
On the video, I
15
can remember them looking at it and then they
16
flipped it over and you could see the suicide note,
17
but first on the other side of it, there was a
18
document.
19
20
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU:
remember.
21
22
I don't
THE CHAIRPERSON:
I just don't
remember what that was.
23
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU:
I think it
24
was the ten commands or something, like the do's
25
and don't's if I remember correctly.
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THE CHAIRPERSON:
2
in this group?
3
video.
4
Is that document
I'm going have to relook at that
MS McLAINE:
On that same table,
5
Mr. Chair, as my friend was indicating, there was
6
an assortment of papers from AA, I believe.
7
8
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU:
I think one
of the pages would be --
9
THE CHAIRPERSON:
In that same
10
plastic bag that the suicide went into, what was
11
the other document that was in that bag?
12
it was around item number 4 as they were going -- I
13
can remember looking at the list or something.
14
What I'm getting at is the notes taken out of the
15
bag, but everything else from that bag is contained
16
on this list.
17
to assume.
18
I think
I'm going to assume and I don't want
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU:
I mean, it
19
took two hours to inventory the whole room, so
20
there was just more than this.
21
22
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Yes.
I remember
you could see them all.
23
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU:
If I may,
24
just not to make your job any easier, they may have
25
been also -- some of these item might have been in
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a vehicle of Stuart because that was also, I
2
believe, probed, seized.
3
THE CHAIRPERSON:
4
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU:
5
By NIS?
They had
access to the vehicle after?
6
MS CERNACEK:
7
just testified that he receives the vehicle from
8
the NIS so the vehicle was with the NIS.
9
Yes, Mr. Mainville
THE CHAIRPERSON:
That's a
10
question, I guess, for NIS down the road in terms
11
of anything that was taken from the vehicle.
12
13
14
MS McLAINE:
I think most of these
questions can likely be clarified by the subjects.
There are obviously other items.
As indicated,
15
there was the jewellery.
16
weddings rings that were taken by the family and
17
put in the casket, if I recall correctly.
18
believe we have evidence on that.
19
I believe there were four
I
There was other items on that
20
video that I believe were not disclosed to anyone
21
and were destroyed because they were inappropriate
22
for disclosure to the family, so there would have
23
been other items.
24
items, I guess, I'm not sure.
25
However, other appropriate
THE CHAIRPERSON:
But it appears
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that out of this list, this is where the suicide
2
note --
3
4
MS McLAINE:
THE CHAIRPERSON:
sure:
THE WITNESS:
No discussion of a
suicide note at all.
9
10
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Did you ever
ask?
11
THE WITNESS:
12
THE CHAIRPERSON:
13
make sure.
14
that time.
No, not my job.
I just want to
S that wasn't even on your radar at
15
16
Just to make
You had no discussion --
7
8
The
suicide note is obviously missing from that list.
5
6
Absolutely.
THE WITNESS:
Not on my radar at
all.
17
THE CHAIRPERSON:
18
re-exam?
19
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS CERNACEK:
20
Q.
Okay.
Any
With respect to the items in
21
the vehicle, Mastere Warrant Officer maybe can tell
22
us what, to his knowledge, was in the vehicle?
23
24
THE CHAIRPERSON:
When it was
brought from NIS?
25
THE WITNESS:
Besides all the bags
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of McDonalds and all that that we took out of
2
there, there was only tools in the back like spare
3
tires and all that but there was no items, personal
4
effects, nothing like that besides the vehicle
5
parts and all that.
6
MS CERNACEK:
7
Q.
Besides the...
8
A.
Besides the vehicle like the
9
wrench tools and all that, there was no other items
10
at all that pertained.
I remember seeing a tire,
11
the thing to change the tires with, hubs.
12
know if there was a safety triangle in it, so there
13
was only three items in the back, nothing else at
14
all.
I don't
Glove department, only the ownership manual.
15
Q.
Were these inventoried?
16
A.
Yes, they were.
They should
17
have been part of one of the list as a kit, yes.
18
MS CERNACEK:
19
THE CHAIRPERSON:
20
Thank you.
Any other
questions?
21
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU:
Not from me.
22
MS McLAINE:
23
THE CHAIRPERSON:
24
you very much for attending and your testimony, and
25
I know as a regimental and from my experience,
Nothing.
I want to thank
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regimental quartermaster can gather a lot of
2
friends, people looking for things and I'm sure you
3
are a popular man on the base, so thank you for
4
your service.
You may be excused.
5
6
Colonel Drapeau, you had an issue
you wanted to --
7
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU:
I will make it very short.
Yes, I do,
8
Mr. Chair.
We would
9
like the show the video that Mrs. Fynes received
10
from the 5th of May, 2010 interviews from which she
11
made the allegations during her testimony which
12
have been characterized by my friend as being
13
spurious allegations, so my only purpose to show
14
the video, and when I say show the video, the four
15
location where we believe are irregularities, so
16
maybe 10 or 15 seconds each, so maybe a minute or
17
two at the very most, there is no need to clarify
18
to have Mrs. Fynes to testify.
19
Our only purpose in fact is to
20
show cause that she made allegations and she had a
21
reasonable apprehension of it.
22
we could do it without having her or having Ms
23
Jansen and I will make tomorrow more substantive
24
presentation in answer to all the questions that we
25
have discussed earlier this week.
Once this is done,
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THE CHAIRPERSON:
issues relating the video and audio and all that.
3
4
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU:
right.
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Did you do a
comparison?
7
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU:
8
THE CHAIRPERSON:
9
That's
So I want to make that request now.
5
6
That's on the
Yes, we did.
Okay.
That's
what I wanted to know.
10
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU:
11
Unfortunately, it raised more questions.
12
certain there is a plausible explanation, but I
13
think for all of us, it would be proper that we
14
address those, so it would be no doubt in our mind
15
that when we are dealing with the videos, they are
16
as accurate and as reliable as we want them to be.
17
THE CHAIRPERSON:
18
MS McLAINE:
I'm
Ms McLaine?
As you are aware, we
19
are working on another way of dealing with that.
20
don't think that showing the video out of context
21
is going to be of any assistance without anyone to
22
speak to it, so we would be objecting to that
23
request.
Showing 10 to 15 seconds?
24
25
Is that --
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU:
at the whole two hours.
I
We can look
I don't think it's
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required.
In fact, it's quite ironic because I'm
2
using exactly the same arguments that my friend
3
used yesterday, a number of other occasions before,
4
in the issue of fairness.
5
I want to be sure that the
6
reputation of Mrs. Fynes is not affected.
7
why we want to show it, no other reason.
8
as brief as possible to show because her
9
allegations has been characterized as being
10
spurious.
11
concerns with that.
That's
We can be
I take that to heart and I have serious
12
We want to show that she had in
13
good faith, an honest belief there was something
14
with the video at those four locations.
15
all.
That's
That's all I want to show.
16
THE CHAIRPERSON:
At this stage,
17
are you suggesting that there is something missing
18
from those four pieces?
19
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU:
Mr. Chair, I
20
don't know what I'm suggesting because when I look
21
at that, the human eye, a reasonable person would
22
say, "What's that?"
23
And that's it.
That gave rise to an apprehension
24
on the part of Mrs. Fynes and it's certainly
25
well-founded in good faith but it may lead to
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nothing except when you look at that, you see a
2
jerking motion of her sitting her on the couch,
3
then says hey and that's all.
4
THE CHAIRPERSON:
It's very
5
possible it could be something or it could not be
6
something.
7
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU:
I hope there
8
is nothing there, and it's in my sincere hope there
9
is nothing, put it to bed.
10
The only reason I'm doing it is
11
because her allegation were not given the benefit
12
of the doubt at the time would qualify as spurious
13
in the interest of fairness and her reputation,
14
which is very important to us, be in fact remain as
15
it is -- intact.
16
THE CHAIRPERSON:
What I'm going
17
to do is I am going to allow the little pieces to
18
be played tomorrow and hopefully that will lead to
19
even being able to help without drawing any
20
conclusions from it.
21
We are not there to draw
22
conclusions and it is not a matter -- it's just to
23
address the one issue that you have.
24
if there are answers to be had relative to the
25
video, then we are going to have to move to the
From there,
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next stage.
2
MS McLAINE:
It may be necessary
3
to replay it.
Sergeant Mitchell will be here on
4
June the 4th.
He will be first of the subjects to
5
testify.
6
interview.
I believe that this relates to his
7
THE CHAIRPERSON:
If need be, we
8
will replay it either bits and pieces, the whole
9
thing.
10
MS McLAINE:
I can't understand
11
what we will get to take it out of context and play
12
it alone like that.
13
decision.
14
However, I respect your
THE CHAIRPERSON:
I'm not going to
15
take it out of context.
16
pieces that you got and then we will move on from
17
there.
18
We are going to play the
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU:
Mr. Chair,
19
we need two minutes of each side of each one of
20
these.
21
we can put that to bed.
22
accusations or even apprehension that it's there
23
and there is possibility of plausible explanation
24
to address that.
I will leave that to you.
25
My hope is that
There are no allegations,
Fine.
THE CHAIRPERSON:
We will take the
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period of time to address that fairness issue that
2
was raised, et cetera, et cetera, and we will be
3
doing that tomorrow after the witness testifies and
4
hopefully we will be able to do it in a reasonable
5
time.
6
7
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Registrar, we will need to have the video.
8
9
THE REGISTRAR:
have that one.
10
11
THE REGISTRAR:
I need the information.
We have to
Which part is it?
Which date?
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU:
May 5th,
2010.
16
17
Do we have that one?
disclose that to you -- yes.
14
15
I don't know if we
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU:
12
13
For the
THE REGISTRAR:
And it was
provided by Mrs. Fynes.
18
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU:
Yes.
It
19
was obtained by her and tomorrow I will provide
20
more substantive details as to the transmitting
21
letter from the Directorate of the Access to
22
Information for Privacy and so on and so forth.
23
But I will just give you notice now that's all the
24
only purpose of my intervention this morning.
25
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Is there
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anything else today?
2
the issue relative to scheduling.
3
a few moments.
4
Okay.
I'm going to address
I will just take
First of all, I want to thank the
5
efforts and the presentations and discussions by
6
counsel with an attempt to resolve this situations
7
around the scheduling.
8
taken into account the submissions made on behalf
9
of the Complainants, the subjects, and those by
10
I have considered it and
Commission counsel.
11
I have done my best to carefully
12
consider the issues of fairness for all the
13
parties.
14
internal issues including those pertaining to
15
service providers and staffing schedules of the
16
MPCC and the related people that we use.
I have also informed myself regarding the
17
From our experience, we found that
18
logistically sitting over the summer creates a
19
number of difficulties, and moreover, if we were to
20
continue into July from what I see of the schedule
21
and the witnesses and the subjects, it would be the
22
entire month of July, not just a week or two.
23
Clearly it would be the entire month of July and
24
maybe more.
25
So after balancing those issues, I
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concluded it is just not practical to sit in the
2
months of July and August.
3
is going to be as follows.
4
So as such, our hearing
We will take a one week break from
5
May 28th to June 1st, and then after that, I
6
believe the first witness up is going to be
7
Mitchell.
8
June or until we are finished all of the
9
non-subject witnesses with the exception of certain
10
We will continue for the entire month of
witnesses who will be heard in the fall.
11
When we resume, we will resume
12
after Labour Day and proceed the entire month of
13
September and we will continue until all the
14
witnesses and subjects are heard.
15
Following the completion of the
16
witnesses in June, we will recommence on the
17
Wednesday, September 5th, so Monday is the Labour
18
Day, Tuesday will be get back to work after the
19
summer and anything needs to be done and we will
20
commence on the Wednesday.
21
Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, so we will get the
22
three days in that week.
23
That week we will sit
And then commencing September
24
10th, we will resume on a Monday to Thursday
25
schedule with Fridays off unless it appears that we
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need to use a Friday here and there during the
2
month.
3
I understand the request from Ms
4
Richards to have Mr. Fynes testify in the fall.
I
5
also understand from listening to Colonel Drapeau
6
that he is fine with that request, and as such, Mr.
7
Fynes will testify in the fall.
8
I also understand there may be a
9
panel of experts, and how many, what, that's to be
10
determined over the summer and that research can be
11
done and that will be heard in the fall as well as
12
the couple of policy witnesses.
13
After all those witnesses, the
14
subjects will testify, so I expect if we do that,
15
that's going to take the first week, maybe a day or
16
so, and then we will move into the subjects.
17
That's going to take, from what I gather, about
18
three weeks for the subjects give or take it's a
19
day of subjects, some of them maybe more.
20
In regards to the subjects, I have
21
made a request as well that we do a little bit of
22
change in terms of the witness books so you have
23
them.
24
the list of all the documents that are going to be
25
used for each witness, but what we are going to do
I'm not saying that you are going to have
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is I could see and as in past hearings, a lot of
2
the documents for the subjects are going to be the
3
same documents, so producing an individual witness
4
book for each subject just doesn't make sense to
5
me.
6
So we will have volumes prepared
7
for the subjects, and then some time previous to
8
that as per normal practice, you will be advised
9
which documents are going to be used, but it just
10
makes sense not to re-create the same document 11
11
and 12 times, so we are going to change that.
12
Regarding final submissions, I
13
will ask counsel to have discussions regarding the
14
timing of final submissions and advise me of the
15
time required for submissions as well as suggested
16
dates.
17
something that as you we get into subjects, if we
18
can finish by the end of September and certainly
19
that's what our goal is, but it's going to take at
20
least three weeks for the subjects, so some time
21
prior to that, we will have to have some discussion
22
about how much time following the subjects do you
23
need to make both in written and/or oral
24
submissions.
I know that's long in advance but that's
25
I expect that could take at least
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a day if they are all submissions supplemented by
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written, whatever the case.
3
questions?
Are there any
4
COL (RET'D) DRAPEAU:
5
MS McLAINE:
6
No questions.
Thank
you.
7
MS CERNACEK:
8
THE CHAIRPERSON:
9
No, sir.
No questions.
And then
obviously our contracts will be put in place and
10
all of that has to be worked through.
11
lot of internal issues that have to happen with
12
that.
13
There are a
I want to thank you for your
14
timely questions and whatnot.
It helps with the
15
day.
16
one witness.
17
finish that witness in the morning, do you think?
We are adjourned until tomorrow.
Do we have an anticipation?
18
MS CERNACEK:
19
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Could we
Definitely.
Then we will do
20
our best to do everything before lunch.
21
very much.
22
--- Whereupon the proceeding adjourned
23
We have the
Thank you
at 12:16 p.m.
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I HEREBY CERTIFY THAT I have, to the best
of my skill and ability, accurately recorded
by shorthand and transcribed therefrom, the
foregoing proceeding using real time computer
aided transcription.
____________________________________
Marion Liang, Court Reporter
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