#: 678398 59/Canoe/Kayak/Raft
03—Sup—94 15:08:52
Sb: Ropes and Knots
Fm: Mike Barrs /PL 720702434
To: Jim Alix/RI 74170234 (x)
You gotta know a few good knots, since they don’t have gadgets
yet for everything. But the gadgets can be useful. In my commercial tour business, we tie down
six kayaks on a trailer, and sometimes-another two on the truck’s root rack. We use Yakima
nylon straps and cam buckles because it’ a lot faster than tying ropes, and the flat nylon strap
works better than rope for securing a slippery kayak hull. As for bungie cords.., well, I wouldn’t
trust a bungie cord to hold a $2k kayak <g>.
That’s about the only place r don’t use a rope and knot. The ones I use most are bowline
(For attaching kayak tow ropes and painters), half—hitch and slipknot half hitch (for securing
food bags and rigging tarps while camping), and trucker’s knot (for bow and stern tie—downs on
roof racks). You can do a lot with just those four knots.
I prefer braided Dacron (designed for sailboats) to nylon rope for almost all applications.
Dacron is wonderful stuff. I use nylon rope only for tow lines and anchor lines, where you want
the line to stretch and absorb shock. It’s important to use three—strand (twisted) nylon rope when
you want maximum stretch, since braided nylon doesn’t stretch as much. The third common
material is polypropylene rope. Its terrible for most rope applications, but ~t floats and it’s very
visible in the water, so it’s good for things like rescue lines and tying onto emergency man
overboard gear.
Mike Barrs. Mangrove Bay Kayak Tours /Miami
Fr: 679190 S9/Canoe/Kayak/Raft 1
O4Sep—94 20:47:52
Sb: #678398Ropes and Knots
Fm: Anthony Williams 76655,1552
To: Mike Barrs /FL 72070,2434 (X)
To your list of essential knots, I would add the Constrictor Knot of Ashley.
Use it constantly to tie up bags and seize ii no. For joining lines where security is vital the double
grapevine is hard to beat. Too like Dacron ropes, but they aren’t cheap!
#: 679394 59/Canoe/Kayak/Raft.
Sep—94 08:48:01
SB: #679190—Ropes and Knots
Fm: Mike Barrs /fl 72070,2434
To: Anthony Williams 76635552
Ill
have to cheek out that Constrictor Knot, thanks
Yeah, sailboat—grade Dacron rope is about twice the cost of nylon. It. does seem to be
loss prone to fraying and sunlight damage than nylon rope, so I think it’s worth the investment. I
also like the cool selection of colors <g>.
Mike
#: 679956 S9/Ganoe/Kayak/Raft.
OS—Sep—94 22:14:12
SB: rn679394—Ropes and Knots
Fm: Jon Spaller/GA 73123,3722
To: Mike Barrs In 72070,2434 00
Mike,
)>Yeah, sailboat—grade Dacron rope is about twice the cost of nylon. It does seem to be less
prone to fraying and sunlight damage than nylon rope, <K
Agreed the Dacron rope stretches less and is definitely more pliable but I’ve never
seen any problems with braided nylon fraying or degrading in sunlight. I kept two braided
nylon lines on my roof racks for five years and the racks were almost always on my Bronco
in Georgia. No garage at borne or work so they got nearly maximum exposure. I recently
traded vehicles and have moved the lines over to a new rack system. I cinch these up
really hard with a Truckers hitch when tying on boats and they’re apparently still very, very,
strong. They show no signs of fraying. I’ll continue the test until one
fails. (But if one fails on the road it will be one of four lines
holding the boat(s).
Jon
*1: 680311 59/Canoe/Kayak/Raft.
06—Sep—94 10:46:20
SB: 1fr679956—Ropes and Knots
Fm: Mike Barrs /FL 72070,2434
To: Jon Spaller/GA 73123,3722 (X)
Jon, thanks for the input I could be wrong about Dacron’s
better UV—resistance. Our ropes get a Lot of abrasion on the
commercial tours (we do things like tie boats up to barnaclecrusted mangroves), so I may just he seeing lOO% mechanical
damage and differences in fiber strength and braiding.
Then again, the L1/ radiation where I paddle (South Florida
and the Keys) is pretty intense. It does seem like nylon rope
starts looking ‘tired’ a lot faster than Dacron.
If anyone lcno~4s of any exposure tests that have been done
on these materials, please speak up. I'd like to know if there
actually is a difference.
Mike
#: 679957 S9/Canoe/Kayak/Raft
O5Sep—94 22:14:18
SB: #679190-Ropes and Knots
Fm: Jon Spaller/GA 73123,3722
To: Anthony Williams 76653,1552 (x)
Anthony, The Grapevine is AKA the Double Fisherman's Knot.
3011
1~: 679958 89/Canoe/Kayak/Raft.
OS—Sep—94 22:14:22
SB: fl678398Ropes and Knots
Fm: Jon Spaller/GA 73123,3722
To: Mike Barrs /FL 72070,2434 (x)
Mike,)> I wouldn’t trust a bungie cord to hold a S2k kayak <g).
<<
I wouldn't trust one to hold a *$2* kayak. Jon
4: 678469 39/canoe/Kayak/Raft 1
03—Sep—94 17:56:37
Sb: Ropes and Knots
Fm: FRED RAY 76450,3264
To: Jim Alix/RI 74170,254 (X)
Jim,
RE: Knots
We use ropes and knots a lot. Recently technical rope work
has undergone somewhat of a rebirth. After teaching many rescue
courses we settled on the figure—B family of knots. You can do
anything you need to with them, and they are
1) Simple and similar
2) Easy to visually verify that they are tied correctly
3) Strong
4) Less likely to come untied than other knots (like
bowlines).
Figure—8 stopper Figure—8 on a bight a loop for anything
Figure—B tracer = join two ropes or put a loop around something
Double figure—B increased strength, improvised harness, multi—
point anchor systems.
A single figure—8 can also be configured for a self—
equalizing anchor, or used to tie your boat down. If you can only
remember one knot —— this is the one!
Slim
P.S. A good recent book is KNOTS FOR CLIMBERS by Craig Luebben,
Chockstone Press, Evergreen, CO 1993.
4: 681136 39/Canoe/Kayak/Raft: 1
06—Sep—94 23:56:34
Sb: #678469—Ropes and Knots
Fm: Joe Pylka/NJ 72345,1601
To: FRED RAY 76450,3264 (x)
I’d concur about the f8 knot family. Two other very
important factors:
It does not reduce rope strength as much as other knots (an
overhand will take away 50% or better of the ropes strength, and
f8 maybe 20%), and it doesn’t jam, SO it’s easier to untie.
I have that book, also. It’s very good, cheap, and easily
available. In my area EMS carries it.
My experience with Dacron suggested that its UV
sensitive, though not as much as rayon. Insofar as Nylon is
concerned, it has a higher melting point than do some of the
other synthetic fibers: A carahiner can get VERY hot from
friction.
——J00 P.
U: 679145 59/Canoe/Kayak/Raft 04—Sep—94 19:13:50
Sb: Ropes and Knots
Fm: Kit Farwell/VA 72711,2770
To: Jim Alix/RI 74170,254 (x)
I much prefer figure 8 to a bowline. It’s easier to see that
it’s tied right. I can tie a bowline in my living room a 100
times in a row, but somehow in real life when yours standing at
some weird angle, it always gets screwed up.
Tie down straps are quick and easy for a boat on the roof.
Some people us bungie cords, but that is just asking for it. —
Kit
#: 679276 59/Canoe/Kayak/Raft. 1
04-Sep—94 23: 13:22
Sb: Ropes and Knots
Fm: Chuck Hawley 75104,1254
To: Jim Alix/RI 74170,254 (X)
Jim:
In addition to the other good suggestions, Scouts and
boaters should know the Constrictor and Double Constrictor. Great
for making jury rigs.
Also, the Tautline Hitch is a winner. And of course, a raft
of Bowlines, including the lovely Bowline on Bight.
Good luck.
Chuck Hawley, West Marine.
~P: 679676 89/Canoe/Kayak/Raft.
05—Sep—94 17:02:38
Sb: #679276—Ropes and Knots
Fm: Jim Alix/RI 74170,254
To: Chuck Hawley 75104,1254 (X)
Thanks for your suggestions, Chuck. I’ve been wanting to
learn the constrictor knot for some time now, but when I had to
teach knots at Scout day camp this summer, I pushed myself to
learn it. It’s a great knot for au kinds of things, particularly
for tying sacks.
-- Jim
Fr: 680077 S9/Canoe/Kayak/Raft.
06—Sep—94 00:50:17
Sb: #679676—Ropes and Knots
Fm: Chuck Hawley 75104,1254
To: Jim Mix/RI 74170,254 (x)
Jim
And tying reluctant Scouts wrists. OK, that probably
wouldn’t h’ considered funny at the old campfire, but I am from
Santa Cruz
Chuck
#: 679372 59/Canoe/Kayak/Raft. 1
05—Sep—94 06:42:49
Sb: Ropes and Knots
Fm: Mark Neisler/GA 73023,140
To: Jim Mix/RI 74170,254 (x)
Jim,
NEVER use bungees! If you keep your eyes open when driving
our highways and byways, you will see many various bungee straps
lying in the road. Good knots are hard to beat. As a Cubmaster
you should learn knots and pass this knowledge on to future
outdoorsman. Ratchet straps I do use when I find that they are
more useful. They can become a crutch if the boater doesn’t know
his knots to begin with. What would your young scouts do if they
found themselves in a situation without them?
Be prepared.
Mark.
3: 679732 59/Canoe/Kayak/Raft: 1
05—Sep—94 17:59:53
Sb: #679372—Ropes and Knots
Fm: John Morris/MO 70771,1236
To: Mark Neisler/GA 73023,140 (x)
Can someone recommend a good book for 1t~arning various
knots? I know nothing about knots and a recent canoe trip made me
think I should learn some.
#: 679955 59/Canoe/Kayak/Raft. 1
05—Sep—94 22:14:07
Sb: #679732—Ropes and Knots
Fm: Jon Spaller/GA 73123,3722
To: John Morris/MO 70771,1236 00
John,
Suggested in this thread were:
*The Morrow Guide to Knots*, Bigon & Regazzoni. This book,
translated from Italian, is a beautiful work on all kinds of rope
and knot applications ranging from utility knots to making of
rope mats and braiding. Seventy most useful knots to know with
647 color photographs and lists for only $12.93.
*The back of the package and the insert of a package of
Lehigh rope*
*River Rescue*, by Les Bechdel and Slim Ray (aka FRED RAY
76450,3264).
*A good recent book is KNOTS FOR CLIMBERS by Craig Luebben,
Checkstone Press, Evergreen, CO 1.993.
BTW, I don’t recall reading much skinny on your recent trip.
We were all holding our collective breath after you sought advice
here. Was it fun or boring, any real problems? What would you
tell others who were going on the same trip and had the same
experience level you did?
jon
3: 680868 59/Canoe/Kayak/Raft: 1
O6Sep—94 20:44:15
Sb: #679732Ropes and Knots
Fm: Mark Neisler/CA 73023,140
To: John Morris/Mo 70771,1236 00
Most of the knots I use I learned as a Boy Scout and later as an Assistant ScoutMaster. I
have taken several river rescue clinics and learned some in those. The rest I just picked up from
friends.
There is one book that I see a lot of outdoors people with,
but I can’t remember the title. It is a small book and it comes
with its own piece of string. I’ve seen it at REI, if you have
one of their stores in your area.
Some of the knots I use are two half hitches, taut line (bow
and stern tie downs on racks), prussic (z Drag for broached boats)
sheet bend, square knot, and the trucker’s hitch (tying boats to
racks), and the Steve Thomas Rope trick (also for unbroaching
boats).
I also use some other knots for caving.
If you are canoeing and don t know what a Z Drag is, you
should learn. You use it to unbroach boats. Very Handy!
Mark
3: 679674 39/Canoe/Kayak/Raft .1
O6-Sep—94 17:02:16
Sb: Ropes and Knots
Fm: Jim Alix/RI 74170,254
To: Jon Spaller/GA 73123,3722 (X)
<<The figure eight. (Family of knots widely used today...>>
I know the figure eight knot as a stopper knot and as part
of the postman knot for tying bundles, but I’m not familiar with
any other variations of it. Would one of the references you cite
contain that info?
Thanks for your help, Jon.
- Jim
#: 679959 S9/Canoe/Kayak/Raft. 1
05—Sep—94 22: 14:26
Sb: #679674—Ropes and Knots
Fm: Jon Spaller/GA 73123,3722
To: Jim Alix/RI 74170,254 0<)
Jim,
>>I know the figure eight knot as a stopper knot and as part of 1.he postman knot for
tying bundles, but I’m not familiar with any other variations of
it. Would one of the references you cite contain that info? <<
See Slims message in this thread on the Figure (of) Eight
Family. The >Morrow Guide to Knots has numerous variations of the
F08. That book is organized by application and in almost every
section there is some variation of the P08, but its all the same
basic knot.
Jon
3: 679675 39/Canoe/Kayak/Raft 1
05—Sep—94 17:02:30
Sb: Ropes and Knots
Fm: Jim Alix/RI 74170,254
To: Alan August/RI 71660,2413 OK)
<<Do you know Nikki Dziadosz by any chance’? >
I've not met her nor heard her name in the Scouting circles I ~‘u been n. I’ve been
a Cubmaster only a few months, however, so very well ray meet her someday.
Thanks for your rep [y Alan. Rhode Is I and being the small
state it is, perhaps you and I will meet someday.
Thanks.
—- Jim
~: 680264 S9/Canoe/Kayak/RafL .1
06—Sep—94 09:58:31
Sb: Ropes and Knots
FR: David S. HablewitL/SC 74107,3674
To: Jim Atix/RI 74170,254 (X)
My two cents worth:
)> But with the advent of ratchet tie—downs and bungee
cords, I’m curious whether people still bother learning knots. If
so, what kind of knots are commonly used? And what kinds of ropes
are used for what purposes.
Velcro too. Knot tying is a dying art. I once had a book that
described how to tie over a thousand knots. Cone and out of
print.
As for bungees, all they’re good for is jumping off of
bridges. (and if bungee jumpers knew what paddlers know, they
wouldn’t be bungee jumpers!)
Too bad you couldn’t be at our last paddling club meeting.
The topic was knot tying and rope care. I was the host. J
included my outline at the end of this message.
If you're working with cubs, avoid the fancy knots. Figure
8, 5utsare knot (good for shoe laces, but that’s about it),
slipknot
(it’s
never
taught
for
some
reason,
but
many
applications like the trucker’s knot), clove hitch, etc. Showing
how they are all similar makes it easier to tie them, like a
sheet bend & bowline. Look close and you’ll see they re actually
the same knot. Clove hitch & two half hitches are similar too.
Showing how they are used is at least as important as teaching
how to tie them. I once met a life scout who could proudly tie
all six basic knots in 31 seconds, but didn’t have a clue what
they were used for. A case of “I completed the requirements,
didn’t I?”
Rope vs. Webbing
Ropes are very handy for tying boats to roof racks the most common applications by people in
this forum, But that ~s he one time I use straps (webbing) with earn locks (not ratchets!) Why?
— Very fast to secure and release.
— Webbing keeps the load from slipping better since it provides marc surface contact
with the toad.
— Webbing is incredibly strong.
— The strength of a knotted rope is never 100% of the strength of an unknotted rope.
The amount of strength retained is related to the ratio of the sharpest turn in the knot vs.
the diameter of the rope. Since webbing is very thin this ratio is very favorable so knotted
webbing (using webbing—specific knots) is almost as strong as unknotted. Some knots can
reduce a rope’ s strength by as much as 50%. BTW, this just another reason to use -a figure 8 on
a bite over a bowline.
Jim, you mentioned you are a Cubmaster. I don’t think the knots are in any of he cub
books, so get the Boy Scout Handbook. Also, get a Pioneering merit badge book. I suggest: these
since they are directed toward the scouting program and easily available to your scout-s too. Tim
side effect is that they get a taste of Boy Scouts and will be more likely to continue their scouting
career.
P.S. some of the following facts may be inaccurate. This was just my outline.
Ropes & Knots in Paddling
Fabrics of Rope
hemp, cotton, &
naturals
Polyethylene
other weak, cheap, age in sun
nylon
spectra
clothes line
Water ski rope
strong,floats,
stretches when wet,
slippery knots
extremely
strong,
very general purpose
expensive, low abrasion,
doesn’t float well
kite string for power kites,
Very strong, elastic
climbing rope
kevlar
very strong, elastic
bulletproof knots
combinations
best of both types used
rock climbing
Types of Weave
twisted
cheap, easy to splice, most elastic
braided
strong, holds its shape,
maintains strength when knotted
better
kernmantle
braided hollow outer layer with
a braided inner core
Sizes & Example Applications
(Usually measured in mm)
5—8 mm
8 – 11 mm
13+ mm
Care
Prussic ropes
Rescue ropes
Rock climbing ropes
Care:





Unpack rescue ropes when storing!
Keep out of sand and rinse after every trip (do not launder)
Store out of sunlight in a cool, dry place
Do not spray with chemicals
Do not 5 op oil rope
Terminology
 standing end
 running end
 bite
 static vs. dynamic
 working load vs. max load
Knots










figure 8
Square knot
sheet bend
bowline
clove hitch
two half hitches
taughtline hitch
fisherman’s knot
prussic
trucker’s knot
Fr: 680649 S9/Canoe/Kayak/Raft.
06—Sep—94 17:10:21
Sb: #680264—Ropes and Knots
Fm: Richard Hopley/MD—DC/OC1 73520,3422
To: David S. Hablewitz/SC 74107,3674 (X)
Flabz,
Bite ~> bight
Richard “Bight—my—tongue” Hopley
Fr: 680463 59/Canoe/Kayak/Raft. 1 06—Sep—94 13:22:50
Sb: Ropes and Knots
Fr: Richard Hopley/MD—DC/0C1 73520,3422
To: Jim Mix/RI 74170,254 QQ
Jim,
Truckers hitch. Taut—line hitch. Clove hitch. Figure—8 stopper.
—Richard
#: 680464 59/Canoe/Kayak/Raft
06—Sep—94 13:23:11
Sb: Ropes and Knots
Fm: Richard Hopley/MD—DC/OC1 73520.3422
To: Alan August/RI 71660,2413 (X)
AA,
Noted (but controversial) safety and rescue expert Wayne
Stindmaeher calls the bowline “the evil knot” because, he says,
it has a tendency to work loose during periods of no tension, he
says. I noticed just the other day that T tied my painter lines
on my then—new Genesis with bowlines when I got the boat 17
months ago, and the knots are still firm though these have
undergone few periods of tension.
—Richard