These are the "minutes" from the meeting 1:00-2:00 on Tuesday, 21 August. Please advise me of any changes or errors. (JJG, 8/21/01) Attendance: Ken, Chris, Joe, Eugene, and Ron. Absent: Ed. Updated: 8/22/01 with various information and/or e-mail responses. Updated: 8/23/01 with several more e-mails, etc. Updated: Many times since 8/23! Data Projectors: Recommend using the 12A projector (to be provided by CIDDE) along with the 12B projector (to be provided by CIDDE) to test and prototype the system. Once the test is done, the "12A" projector will be returned to its rightful place and the Department will ensure the purchase of a second projector to be permanently installed in 12B. "4th projector", ultimately to be provided by the Department or from grant funds aquired by the Department: Estimated cost at this time: $13-$14k. Projector to match those purchased by CIDDE. As of 8/21/01, the exact make and model of the data projector is unknown. We would like to know what projector CIDDE is planning on installing as the main data projector. From: Joseph J. Grabowski [mailto:joeg+@pitt.edu] Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 3:38 PM To: arenth@cidde.pitt.edu Subject: Projector Hi guys: Can either of you tell me which projector will be installed in CSC-12B permanently? I'm trying to raise money for another one for the Stereo project we have underway, and everyone I approach is asking me for the exact model/cost. Only you folks can tell me that. Cheers, Joe G. Subject: Date: From: To RE: Projector Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:37:38 –0400 "Arenth, Michael" <arenth@CIDDE.PITT.EDU> :"'Joseph J. Grabowski'" <joeg@pitt.edu> Joe, In case you haven't heard from Ed, let me tell you what I know. The exact make/model has not yet been determined. I talked with Ed about the performance of the Proxima that he has temporarily installed in CSC-12. While it appears to be adequate, it is not as bright as it should be in my opinion. Moving to a brighter projector will add not only a higher purchase price, but will also mean higher maintenance costs as some models use 4 projection lamps simultaneously at a cost of $2,000 per lamp change. Ed is going to join us at 9:40 tomorrow to take another look at the Proxima. 106753667 1 3/6/16 Michael A Warning?: "cyvz says that they work with regular or dlp projectors, but the fellow at Northwestern said that if you get regular projectors you need a special kit to deal with internal reflection problems." "Digital Light Processing (DLP): The commercial name for this technology from Texas Instruments (TI): The technology inside is often referred to as either "micro-mirrors", or DMD: It works this way: build a few hundred thousand tiny mirrors, and line them up in 800 rows of 600 mirrors each. Now attach a hinge to each of those 480,000 mirrors. Attach each of those 480,000 hinges to its own very tiny motor! Power each motor with electrostatic energy! The motors tilt their mirrors up to 20 degrees at incredible speeds. This allows the mirrors to modulate light from a lamp, and send the "modulated signal" out through a lens, on to a screen. The most amazing part of DLP micro mirrors, is the scale of size. The 480,000 mirrors (actually 580,000 are used), hinges and motors are packed onto a "wafer" a bit larger than your thumbnail." Ref: http://www.projectorcentral.com/glossary.cfm 3D Convertors: CYVIZ is the only such company we have so far identified. Joe is to contact them for info re: (1) List of compatible video cards. (2) Availability of unit on a trial basis – how long and when? (3) Difference between xpo.1 and xpo.2 (is it only the resolution?). (4) Is there a local distributor? (5) Contacts for the users at Brookhaven, NTNU, Penn State Univ and Northwestern? {E-mail already sent. 8/21} Quoted price is $8,500 for xpo.1 and $12,150 for xpo.2. The only difference we have identified is resolution (1024 x 768 vs 1280 x 1024). A Google Search of CYVIZ did not turn up any university sites using this relatively new product. {Searched 8/21/01). E-mail query and responses (8/21/01)… (1) Can you supply us with a list of compatible video cards? Or perhaps some recommended video cards? -1. We may recommend Wildcat graphic boards from 3Dlabs, based on measured, technical quality. A list of video cards, you will find at: http://www.stereographics.com/boards/brd-chrt.htm (2) Can you supply us with the names and e-mail addresses of the people at the following institutions who use your product? Brookhaven, NTNU, Penn State Univ and Northwestern -2. I believe these people wont mind being contacted. At NTNU, John Ivar Haugland john@ipt.ntnu.no North-western, Doug Roberts doug-roberts@northwestern.edu Penn State Univ, George Otto - gho@toaster.cac.psu.edu Note: JJG sent the following email to all three on 8/21/01… My apologies for intruding. I'm chairing a faculty committee here at Pitt working to convert a lecture hall in the Chemistry building into a modern lecture hall equipped with 3D projection capability. 106753667 2 3/6/16 We are considering a Cyviz stereo 3D converter and were informed that you have experience using one of these. I was wondering if we could get your opinion/advice? If you are willing to help us, we could communicate either by e-mail, or by phone, at your convenience. In the event, it may be one of more savvy committee members who I ask to interact with you. If you are able to assist us, please let me know the best way and time to get your advice and help. Many thanks for taking the time with this e-mail, Joe G. --------------- What follows is the first response; KJ will contact (I hope) -----------------Subject Re: Cyviz Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 10:59:51 -0500 From: Doug Roberts <doug-roberts@northwestern.edu> Organization: Northwestern University To joeg@pitt.edu Hello Joe, I would be happy to talk to you. It would more efficient to talk over the phone I think. If you could call me (I am at 312.322.0529 today) or give me a time to call you I would be happy to discuss this with you today. Cheers, Doug -Doug Roberts, Visualization Support Specialist 1935 Sheridan Road NU Library 2EAST, Room 2650 Evanston, IL 60208-2323 doug-roberts@northwestern.edu Phone (NU): 847.467.6889 Phone (Adler): 312.322.0529 Fax: 847.467.7729 ---------------- What follows is the KJ’s notes from their conversation -----------------Subject: Date: From: cyviz Wed, 22 Aug 2001 15:56:46 -0400 jordan@PSC.EDU I spoke with Doug Roberts of Northwesters. He is happy with his Cyviz. They recently upgraded from the .1 to the .2 model. He said there are improvements in the controls. So it is not just a question of the resolution. Sounds like we should go with the new model. We should make certain that the projectors are using dlp technology. (If we go non-DLP, then we need to deal with a manufacturer that knows how to fix extra reflections in one color vs another.) He dealt with a company "Stewart" that makes custom silver screens. 106753667 3 3/6/16 He als mentioned a company Da-Lit or Da-Lite that has screens in fixed sizes. He is using a Wildcat II (5110) graphics card (this is from the same company which makes the Oxygen cards). He bought the whole system computer/graphics card from Dell for about $5000. The wildcat card can drive a stereo crt or goggles at the same time as the cyviz. ---------------- What follows is the second response -----------------Subject: Re: Cyviz Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 12:24:41 -0400 From: George Otto <gho@toaster.cac.psu.edu> Reply-To: george-otto@psu.edu To: joeg@pitt.edu Hello Joe, Yes, we have been using the Cyviz xpo.2 with a rear-projected single-screen VR system we've been putting together for use in a student lab. We also are evaluating it for use in a stereo projection classroom. The thing we like about the box is that, by breaking out a standard frame sequential CrystalEyes stereo signal, it offers a high degree of compatibility with existing applications that support CrystalEyes output, of which there are a reasonable number. So, for a technology classroom setting, one could imagine faculty using applications with which they are familiar (engineering, molecular modeling, solid modeling, etc.) and trivially projecting stereo when appropriate. For example, VMD works nicely for molecular stuff. One could, of course, run a passive stereo projection system by writing graphics applications that produce left and right eye views on the two displays of a two-headed system, each of which then feeds a separate projector. Such an approach wouldn't require the cyviz box, but would require writing your own graphics applications (or at least modifying display parameter of those of others) and sacrifice the general compatibility mentioned above. I think for a multiuse classroom, the software compatibility has much value, as you want to make it as easy as possible for a variety of people to use the system. For a specialized lab that already develops its own apps, it's questionable. The cyviz box has performed fine in our experience. We are using two Proxima Ultralight x350 projectors (xga 1024x768), linear polarization filters and glasses, and an adjustable stand for aligning the projectors. The filters, glasses and stand were provided by Cyviz. The stand was an extra cost item. [JJG Note added, 8/21/01: Projector is $4,999 street and gets high reviews at ZDNet, http://www.zdnet.com/products/stories/overview/0,8826,437095,00.html , on 3/13/01] The linear polarization filters work fine to separate the stereo pair images and allow the use of widely available and cheap glasses. Tilting one's head introduces crosstalk when linear filters are used. This is not much of problem with theater or classroom setting, where viewers are sitting relatively still. But linear polarization may be a problem for VR applications in which we expect participants will more likely be moving around, and hence more likely to tilt their heads. I am currently looking for circular polarization filters, which will separate regadless of the head tilt. I am finding that few people deal with circular polarization, and I expect the filters/glasses to be more costly. I have also been warned that there is likely to be some crosstalk with the circular polarization, but I haven't been able to confirm that myself. The projectors were relatively easy to align using the provided stand. It takes about 15 minutes or to line them up, once you get the hang of it. For a classroom, you may need to think of some other arrangement for lock-down, security, ceiling mount, or whatever. 106753667 4 3/6/16 For a projection classroom, I would suggest springing for sxga projectors (1280x1024), which probably will increase the projector cost by $8K-10K for each projector. I think the higher resolution would be worth it. If you have other questions, please feel free to contact me. I also would be interested in tracking your efforts (both technology decisions and user deployment issues) as we all are starting into somewhat new territory. I can be reached by e-mail or phone 814.863.6112. Good luck with your project. -George Otto George Otto <george-otto@psu.edu> Visualization Group Center for Academic Computing Penn State University (3) is the only difference between xpo.1 and xpo.2 the resolution? -3. Yes for now, but the xpo.2 will be added additional functionality, aimed at the high-end marked in near future. (4) Is there a local distributor of either product here in the USA? -4. Final versions of xpo.1 & xpo.2 was first launched in June, and at this point there hasen`t been established any resellers in your area yet. In this first phase we like to serve you direct, but we will also make sure that you get all the support you may need. (5) If we wanted to borrow a xpo.2 unit to test its capability, would we be able to do that at no charge? When could we do it? -5. Fortunately for us, we got a considerable influx of companies like to try out our products, and we got some difficulties shipping a larger amount of evaluations units... Cyviz very much like you to evaluate our products, and like to offer you a 30 days payment, with possibility to return the units at no cost, except for the return shipment. Addendum, 12:15 pm, 8/22/01: I just got off the phone with the Company from Norway. They will send a price quote with a 30% discount over the previously quoted price. I'm going to see if I can get Craig to issue a PO for the higher resolution device (I'm estimating the cost will be about $8,505 (70% of $12,150). Cyviz order placed (with Dorcas) on 8/29/01. I also provided her with a Sole Source Justification, and helped her fill out the paperwork necessary to get this company on the Authorized Vendor list. Dual Headed Video Cards: 106753667 5 3/6/16 While an 'appropriate' video card is needed to make this project successful, it does not seem to be the case that a dual-headed video card, nor two video cards in the one computer is a viable alternative. Ron will acquire the "correct" video card when needed (overnite delivery is possible as it appears the card we will need is rather common); the necessary video card is not expected to be terribly expensive (i.e., it should be less than $500). Regarding the comment from the guy at Northwestern, that they needed $5K for the computer plus graphics card – which I was “shocked” at… Subject: Date: From To: Re: [Fwd: cyviz] Wed, 22 Aug 2001 20:04:29 -0400 Ron Zulick <zulick+@pitt.edu> joeg@pitt.edu The Wildcat II (5110) is a 128 MB video card that is priced at $2000. I'm sure we could get the PC + graphics card for under $3000 (if we build it). The 5K price is probably because he bought a graphics workstation from Dell. The term "workstation" always brings up the price. Ron ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Subject: RE: [Fwd: cyviz] Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 16:16:32 -0400 From: jordan@PSC.EDU To: joeg@pitt.edu .. it is probably a PIV with rdram. He may have bought this with a lot of memory when that memory was expensive. Also this is the high-end card from 3D labs. I just checked the card itself sells for $2300. We can cut this in half or more by going with an oxygen or comparable card. The SAG computers won't work with the Wildcat 5110 video card. The Wildcat requires a AGP Pro slot and the SAG's only have a AGP 4X (i.e. they can't supply the needed power to drive the Wildcat card, it uses 50W of power). See Spec Sheet for this graphics card (available on the Renovations web site). Computers for all 3 Lecture Halls: PIII, at least 1 GHz Monitor = touch sensitive screen to be provided by CIDDE. DVD/CD drive 512 MB memory 60 G Hard Drive Network card At least one computer (the one for 12B) will need to be able to accommodate the "better" video card needed for stereo projection in 12B. As the "touch sensitive" screens are to be provided by CIDDE and these have not yet been identified (need this info to ensure correct standard video card is ordered), we will hold off on ordering the three computers till more information is available. Computers should cost approximately $1000 each (three needed). 106753667 6 3/6/16 Software: "No cost" software to install… Operating System = Windows-2000 Browsers = Netscape 4.7 and 6.1, Internet Explorer 5.5 Plugins: Chime, QT, Acrobat Reader, (Shockwave?) Microsoft Office XP IR tutor Sci Finder Scholar Another suggestion is: Spartan PC on the room 12 computer. I, and I think other gen chem and orgo professors, can and have used this for illustrating molecules. There is also a red/blue 3D mode that I have used as well that works pretty good for the students at this level. A copy of the software runs around $700 and the red/blue paper glasses are about 50 to 75 cents/pair. It would cost us $1000 for the whole deal, and give us quite a bit of added resources for the classrooms. (Do we have an "extra license" already? Do we need both this and PC-Gaussian? Should we install this on a departmental laptop instead to make it more widely available?) 8/30/01: Ken is in contact with MSI re: donating software that will allow faculty to easily create 3D images of molecules (Web Lab Pro?). They will want to see our "web page" for this project, and to be able to advertise our project on their web site in return. Negotiations continue. Silvered (polarized) Screen: A silvered screen is necessary for this project VREX offers one of 90" x 120" for $1700. Chris will look into "silvered sheet" that we can "tack" to the projection area in CSC12B. Joe will look into "borrowing" a silvered screen from CIDDE. (E-mail query sent to Michael Arenth, Media Services, CIDDE). Here is the e-mail exchange… Joe, We do not have the kind of screen you are looking for. I checked with two big AV rental houses in the city and they do not carry them either. I'll try to find another source, but no luck so far. Michael A -----Original Message----From: Joseph J. Grabowski [mailto:joeg+@pitt.edu] Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 3:52 PM To: arenth@cidde.pitt.edu Subject: Silvered screen Mike: Crazy and simple question. Does Media Services have a portable (large) silvered screen that they lend out? We need a screen that won't lose the polarized image we will project on it and were curious if one could be borrowed for the demo project we are trying to set up. 106753667 7 3/6/16 Cheers, Joe G. Subject: Date From To: Re: screens Fri, 24 Aug 2001 13:04:55 -0400 Christian Schafmeister <meister+@pitt.edu> joeg@pitt.edu Hoh boy! The screen is expensive. I talked with at Brad (800-762-4999 ext 118) at Stewart Film about the screen. It's expensive, $13,067! Its a Lace & Grommet format. Number AT3M300VSLV3D. It takes up to 6 weeks to manufacture. The size is 20 foot wide and 15 foot tall. I got the name of the local distributer. Chris Addendum from KJ: It may be we can make do with a 16'by 12' screen. We will go in the lecture hall alter to see. This would probably bring the price down to $8500. Cyviz recommends checking out this company for screen info: http://www.stewartfilm.com. The Northwestern guy also mentioned this company; see: http://www.stewartfilm.com/engineering_specifications/3d.html Ed G. from Media Services recommends a 18-foot by 13-foot (viewable) screen area. That's what we will order. Joe G. alerted Patty on 8/30/01 to the necessity of the screen being installed by Phys Plant as soon as it is received; we should give her a "sketch" as soon as it is ordered. We expect Dick Howe to cover cost of installation as he is covering cost of the screen. Ken Please proceed. Use the dept account and Evon can obtain the extra funds from our budget once the actual costs are in. We need to support you and your colleagues as you move the cutting edge of delivering classroom instruction forward. OK to order either screen -- which ever one they can quick ship for installation. Please keep Patty alert as to progress so that she will be able to have the carpenters on stand-by to install the new screen if they are needed. Dick Miscellaneous: VREX offers paper polarized glasses for abut $0.75 each and maybe $3.50 for plastic ones. (JJG sent a request for a price quote for 100 paper and 30 plastic, on 8/21/01). Quote obtained 8/30 from VREX, 100 pairs paper glasses, $0.69 each, 30 pairs plastic glasses, $3.19 each, with S&H, total bill is $173.70. Ordered placed (with Dorcas) on 8/30/01. Web sites: http://www.cyviz.com http://www.vrex.com/ Summary: 106753667 8 3/6/16 This project is becoming more expensive than we initially anticipated; we need to explore additional sources of assets to bring it to fruition as we still feel this a valuable endeavor for both the university and the department. Craig has (tentatively) committed $13-$14K of Dept funds to the project (initially earmarked for the projector). Approximately that much more again is needed if we go with the CYVIZ unit, the silvered screen, and the "incidentals" (video card, glasses, etc.). THESE ARE ALL INITIAL GUESSES. Regarding $$: Joe will continue to consult with the HHMI grant to see if they can contribute. Regarding $$: Ken will explore some of his contacts elsewhere in the University. Subject: Date: From: To: funding Wed, 22 Aug 2001 20:38:49 -0400 jordan@PSC.EDU joeg@pitt.edu … the e-mail I sent to Joe Sismour made it to Dick Howe. I have brought Dick up to date on what we would like to do, cyviz, silver screen, etc. It sounds that he would be willing to help out a bit more $-wise, if need be. He said for us to let him know how much more we need once we get this sorted out. No next meeting was yet established. See separate document (Renovations_3D-budget.doc) for current listing of costs and contributions. Additional, miscellaneous info: jordan@PSC.EDU wrote: Chris: do you know about the following approach of doing stereo without shutter googles or polarized projection? http://www.tan.de/english/produkte/x1_infitec.html Is this a technology we should have looked into? Chris: according to this web page: http://www.stereo3d.com/applications.htm. weblab pro, vmd, etc do stereo by use of "page flipping" instead of interlacing. Will this work with the cyviz system? If we don't know the answer to this, should we check with cyviz? --------------------------------Subject: Re: stereo Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:08:23 -0400 From: Christian Schafmeister <meister+@pitt.edu> To: jordan@PSC.EDU Ken, There is no discussion on the www.tan.de web site about the technology they use. I know of only one technology that provides 3D without glasses and that uses a prismatic lens and would not work in a large auditorium. This prismatic approach is used in the Elsa 3D monitors http://www.elsa.com/international/europe/produkte/monitor/eco_4d.htm The page flipping vs interlacing should be transparent to the application, it should be dealt with by the card. I would expect that weblab pro will use standard OpenGL stereo calls and that everything should work with the Cyviz. Given the technical complexity of what we are assembling we can't know until we put the system together. So lets save all of our receipts. :-) 106753667 9 3/6/16 I'm getting a quote for the 18x13 screen in a few hours and then I'll place the order. Cheers, .Chris. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 106753667 10 3/6/16 Justification for $$ Raising Purposes? E-mail sent to: Steve W, Gilbert W, Pete S., Tara M., Chris S. I'm working with some colleagues to figure how to project 3D images in a lecture hall. We hope to equip CSC-12B as a prototype. To do so, I also need to raise some money. One of my potential sources would be happiest to give when it is clear such a innovative tool would benefit classes. I thought this might be very useful for the Bio-Organic course? I was wondering if you could send me a very short paragraph stating whether you believe you would use (and maybe how?) such a 3D projections equipped lecture hall. Gilbert's Response: 3D images are powerful tools for instruction in physical and biological chemistry. They can be used to show the shapes of large proteins to an entire class at one time. In this way the class can discuss the locations and functions of docking sites and their conformational dynamics, and the motion of cellular components during function, for example. Such insight is difficult to convey in other ways. In addition, the 3D projector can be used to illustrate the multidimensional potential energy surfaces of chemical nuclear displacement. This will also be of enormous use in Statistical maechanics, where students are expected to develop such models. The 3D projector would permit the teacher to develop and represent such a model in the students' eyes, which will strengthen the connection to the "mind's eyes." (Chem 2810 and chem 2820). Steve's Response: The University of Pittsburgh’s Department of Chemistry has recently developed two new graduate courses to broaden the core of our Graduate Curriculum. These courses, in Biological Chemistry, have been developed by a multidisciplinary team of Professors in the Chemistry Department. In large measure, the courses were developed after successful implementation of a similar course at the Undergraduate level. In the first of this pair of courses, biomacromolecular structure and function are the focus. Students learn basic thermodynamic and kinetic principles that form the basis for modern ideas about macromolecular structure. Further, similar thermodynamic and kinetic principles are applied for the understanding how biomacromolecules interact with small molecules. In the second course, Biological Chemistry is viewed from a systems perspective. How do membranes form? How do proteins associate with membranes. How do multi-subunit protein assemblies function in signal transmission? How do membrane pores work? How do vesicular release, diffusion, uptake and metabolism affect neurotransmitter effect? How do molecular motors work? What is the special structure of RNA that allows it to have catalytic function? In both of these courses, structure is a key aspect of function. Therefore, a full and deep understanding of structure is a prerequisite for thinking about function. As educators, we struggle enormously with this simple concept. From simple chirality to the organization of the nerve terminals in the brain, three dimensional understanding of structure is required, but so difficult to teach adequately. For example, in the first Biological Chemistry course, we discuss several thermodynamic influences on the simple -helix. These include alignment of dipoles 106753667 11 3/6/16 and amino acid-amino acid interactions. A helix is a three dimensional object. It is really impossible to envision interactions without a model or three dimensional visualization tools. At a higher level of complexity, through the use of the Protein Data Bank, crystal structures of many proteins are available. These structures can be used in creative ways. For example, an electrostatic map of the surface of the protein can be made. When this is viewed in three dimensions, the biophysical lesson becomes clear. One can actually see, in many enzymes, an electrostatic “funnel” pulling charged substrates into the active site. Three dimensional images are critical to understanding electron transfer through proteins, as it is a multiplicity of contacts in a three-dimensional network that do the job. In another example from the second course, the visualization of the formation of multiple protein assemblies, whether it be useful ones like Gprotein-based signaling systems or deleterious ones like sickle-cell inducing hemoglobin or Alzheimer’s plaques, gives students the power to imagine pharmacological solutions to diseases. These are but a few examples of important concepts in biological chemistry that are taught with difficulty, or with enormous effort (building physical models, designing clever twodimensional portrayals of three dimensional systems and making it work for students). Having a three dimensional viewing capability in a large classroom does more than make molecules and systems come alive. It teaches students to think about chemistry in three dimensions. As this is the space in which chemistry actually takes place, maybe it is time that we taught it this way. Tara’s Response: One of the most challenging aspects of teaching chemistry is communicating the three-dimensional nature of molecules. As an inorganic chemistry professor, I currently employ a variety of methods for conveying this information to students including perspective drawings, computer generated 2D projections, and physical models. Although these methods are satisfactory for many subjects, there are others that would benefit from a 3D-projector. For example, symmetry, a topic that is central to the understanding of bonding and spectroscopy, requires not only that students picture the 3D nature of the molecule, but also that they see all of the possible symmetry relationships within the molecule such as axes of rotation and planes of reflection. Many students struggle with these concepts—they simply cannot “see” the relationships and they find it hard to translate 2D representations into 3D images in their heads. A computer-generated 3D image would really help these students visualize the molecules. Another example of a topic that is difficult to communicate in two dimensions, is active site structure in metal-containing proteins. The catalytic chemistry that goes on at metal-centers found in proteins depends on the geometry of the amino-acid ligands that surround and anchor the metal. These ligands, which are part of the protein backbone, determine not only how the metal behaves, they also define the size and types of molecules that can approach and react with the metal center. It is difficult to appreciate these 3D concepts with 2D images. A 3D projector would really enhance the students’ understanding of the metal active site in bioinorganic molecules. Stan's Response: I would like to take a moment to express my full support for a 3-D projection system in lecture room 12A/B in Chevron. I normally teach my introductory chemistry course (chem 0100) in this lecture room, and I am very interested in using a system like this. I am very confident that my students will benefit greatly by viewing models and molecules in 3-D. I hope that this type of projection system becomes reality as soon as possible. 106753667 12 3/6/16