11 October 2001
Page 1 of 225
THURSDAY, 11 OCTOBER 2001
____
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
____
The Council met at 14:07.
The
Chairperson
took
the
Chair
and
requested
members to observe a moment of silence for prayers
or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see
col 000.
RULINGS AND REMARKS BY PRESIDING OFFICERS
(Ruling)
The
CHAIRPERSON
OF
THE
NCOP:
Order!
before
we
begin, I wish to deliver a ruling in respect of
remarks
and
rulings
that
were
sitting on 27 September 2001.
made
during
the
11 October 2001
Page 2 of 225
I recently received correspondence concerning the
remarks and the rulings of the officers presiding
during the address by the Deputy President on 27
September 2001. Having referred to the Hansard, I
wish to take this opportunity to respond to the
correspondence.
The remarks of the Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP
were that he had allowed the hon member Mr Matthee
to proceed to debate a Bill which was not before
Parliament
and
which
was
also
not
the
subject
matter of the debate in the NCOP on that day. He
concluded by saying that it was not a matter before
the House.
When the hon member Ms Botha proceeded to raise the
issue of the constitutional amending Bills during
her speech, the Chairperson of Committees indicated
that,
given
the
earlier
remarks
of
the
Deputy
Chairperson, the member was referring to a matter
that was still to be tabled before the House. Her
ruling
was
that
the
member
continue
with
her
speech, but refrain from referring to the matter.
11 October 2001
Although
the
Page 3 of 225
Chairperson
of
Committees
did
not
expressly refer to NCOP Rule 49, which deals with
the
anticipation
of
a
discussion,
it
would
seem
that it was the Rule which was invoked. According
to
the
Rule,
discussion
of
no
a
member
matter
may
appearing
anticipate
on
the
the
Order
Paper.
The
Rule
further
provides
that,
in
determining
whether a matter is out of order on the ground of
anticipation, the officer presiding must consider
whether it is probable that the matter anticipated
will
be
discussed
reasonable
therefore
time.
had
a
The
in
the
Council
Chairperson
discretion
which
of
she
within
a
Committees
exercised
accordingly.
I do wish to emphasise that the ruling must not be
interpreted
as
implying
that
members
are
being
restricted in terms of the issues that they may
wish to raise in the course of a debate. Members do
address a range of auxiliary issues in the course
of a debate. However, the nature of a parliamentary
debate and, indeed, the Rules require that members
11 October 2001
Page 4 of 225
focus on the subject matter before the House. In
particular, where there is a subject or motion set
for
discussion,
the
expectation
is
that
members
will adhere to that subject or motion.
The constitutional amending Bill is on the Order
Paper and members will have a full opportunity to
debate it. The ruling that the hon member Ms Botha
could not continue to speak on that subject was
therefore correct.
By
agreement
of
the
Whippery,
Notices
of
Motion
will be dealt with after the last Order of the Day.
PUBLIC SERVICE WAGE NEGOTIATIONS
(Statement)
The
MINISTER
FOR
THE
PUBLIC
SERVICE
AND
ADMINISTRATION: Madam Chairperson and hon members
of this House, every year the Public Service enters
into
protracted
Service
unions
negotiations
on
wages
conditions of service.
and
with
the
Public
other
aspects
of
11 October 2001
This
year,
Page 5 of 225
the
Department
of
Public
Service
and
Administration, encouraged by agreements arrived at
at the jobs summit, has taken an innovative and
strategic
approach
to
negotiating
the
2001-2004
negotiations on the improvement of conditions of
service for the Public Service with the 12 public
sector unions.
I
would
like
to
present
to
this
House
this
afternoon the rationale, status and outcome of the
negotiation process, and the rest that came about
in terms of where we are today.
The start of the negotiations was characterised by
deliberate
and,
I
believe,
engagements.
This
was
preceded
constructive
by
a
thorough
workshop on budgeting in government with unions,
designed to expedite the negotiations. We wanted
everybody
to
understand
what
was
in
the
fiscal
for
salary
envelope to understand its dispersion.
Each
union
increases,
second
presented
which
stage
of
its
ranged
the
own
from
demand
9%
to
negotiations,
13%.
unions
At
the
tabled
11 October 2001
what
we
Page 6 of 225
referred
to
as
consolidated
proposals.
These ranged from 13% to 25%. This complicated the
negotiation process, as the consolidated proposal
was twice that of the original proposal.
In
an
attempt
to
find
an
agreement,
and
after
careful consideration, the Government revisited its
offers on numerous occasions to accommodate what we
believed were reasonable demands from unions during
the
negotiations.
considered
competing
Our
offer
that
demands
on
final
balanced
position
the
Government's
was
a
pressing
and
resources,
and
addressed what we believed were some of the genuine
concerns raised by unions.
On Tuesday last week, 2 October 2001, we offered
unions
until
the
close
of
business
to
sign
the
agreement on the table. This offer, at that point,
included revisions made by the Government around
the issue of restructuring of the Public Service,
in the hope that this would secure an agreement
signed by the majority of Public Service unions.
The Government believes that this was a fair offer
11 October 2001
Page 7 of 225
and an innovative attempt at fostering a broader,
integrated and multiterm agreement.
In demonstrating this commitment, we extended our
deadlines
from
last
week.
Headlines
screamed:
``Minister revises offer'', I think for the third
time or something like that, because we felt that
we needed to reflect our willingness to negotiate
in good faith.
Hence, we further accommodated proposals
labour
for
changes
to
the
draft
made by
agreements.
Regrettably, by yesterday, with the exception of
four unions, the majority of unions in the Public
Service Co-ordinating Council did not accept the
agreement that we presented. I am not going to go
into
the
background
to
our
constraints
and
challenges. I trust that members will look at a
copy of my input which will be circulated.
In
view
of
Government
a
we
more
expansionary
thought
that
budget,
there
were
as
the
certain
things that we would like to do, including hiring
more people, giving larger increases and designing
11 October 2001
Page 8 of 225
new measures to attract and retain scarce skills.
This
was
a
costly
exercise,
and
if
we
look
at
growing capital spending, expanding the welfare net
and paying for free municipal services, and these
all being demands from the same part, I am sure we
will
all
agree
that
it
is
clear
that
available
resources are limited and we need to look at making
trade-offs.
Trade-offs are difficult, but they need to be made
in a way that improves the chance of the Government
meeting
money.
its
objectives
There
are
with
times
in
a
finite
public
amount
policy
of
when
choices have to be made between equally laudable
objectives, and this is one of those situations.
Hiring more people will reduce the workload, and
allow for an expansion of the services that the
Government
delivers.
In
keeping
with
this,
the
Government is committed to creating employment over
the
medium
term
in
key
service
delivery
sectors
which include education, correctional services and
justice,
security.
health
and
welfare,
and
safety
and
11 October 2001
Page 9 of 225
Why are we committed to increasing employment in
the above sectors? It is true that there are areas
in the Public Service that are overstaffed and that
there
are
areas
that
require
fundamental
restructuring in keeping with the agreements made
by the Government with the public service sector
unions
at
the
Jobs
Summit
in
January
2001
in
Pietersburg.
In this House, we have repeatedly reflected on some
of
the
this
inefficiencies
House,
in
members
the
Public
reflect
on
Service.
some
of
In
the
inabilities in service delivery. We need to ensure
that
the
Government
and
unions
together
develop
innovative tools and procedures that will deal with
the situation to ensure the necessary fundamental
transformation,
remain
complies
and
committed
with
the
it
to
is
to
ensuring
Public
this
a
Service
end
that
process
we
that
Co-ordinating
Bargaining Council's resolution 7 of 2001. For all
of us here, resolution 7 comprises the commitments
of the Jobs Summit agreement.
11 October 2001
The
envisaged
Page 10 of 225
process
provides
a
framework
for
ensuring that the rights of public servants and the
need
to
delivery
retain
jobs
are
imperatives
balanced
that
with
emerge
service
across
the
Government. The critical imperative is to have a
fair
process,
alternatives
and
are
to
ensure
exhausted
that
all
before
possible
anyone
is
retrenched.
The current agreement - members should please look
at paragraph 8 of the agreement that we as the
Government signed in that Chamber - it gives unions
adequate time to negotiate with the Government on
these issues, but insists that in order to have
certainty, all parties should agree to arbitration
in cases where no agreements are reached.
A false impression is being deliberately created
that the Government is forcing unions to agree to
retrenchments.
In
actual
fact,
the
agreement
provides for ample opportunity for negotiation and,
as the last resort, it proposes arbitration as a
fair and final solution.
11 October 2001
Page 11 of 225
Clause 8 of the resolution reads:
Parties agree to convene a special PSCBC meeting
which
shall
remain
in
session
for
an
uninterrupted period between 16 October 2001 and
12
December
2001
in
order
to
conclude
a
collective agreement on restructuring.
This
came
about
in
view
of
concerns
that
Department of Labour had, and we effected it
the
in
because we thought that it made good sense to us to
be able to have adequate consultation to resolve
this
particular
question
through
collective
bargaining.
The negotiations contemplated in the clause that I
mentioned are based upon the resolutions contained
in the Public Service Jobs Summit. In the agreement
on the table, we believe that resolution was a step
in
the
right
consistency,
direction
moderation
respective approaches.
to
and
build
a
balance
sense
of
in
our
11 October 2001
It
was
to
Page 12 of 225
shift
negotiations
-
away
five
from
months
antagonistic
this
year
annual
and
seven
months in 1999 - to a situation in which there is a
three-year multiterm agreement that is in line with
the
Medium-Term
could
argue
Expenditure
that
anyone
Framework.
was
No
negotiating
party
in
bad
faith.
Our wage offer was 8% for level 1, 7% for levels 2
and 3 and 6,5% for levels 4 to 12. We were willing
to put on the table money that we would vote on, on
30
October
in
the
adjustments
estimate
appropriation, in order to have a package deal money that was not and is not in this year's budget
appropriation
-
because
we
felt
it
important
to
have a multiterm agreement.
We felt it important to actually ensure that Public
Service workers would, for the next two years, know
that on 1 July they would get increases that are
above inflation: 0,5%
above inflation next year
and the year thereafter an additional 1%.
11 October 2001
Page 13 of 225
In addition to that, there would also be a pay
progression system that would be based on 1% of the
wage
Bill.
That
would
improve
merit
awards
for
productivity in order to be an incentive for those
public
servants
who
are
working
hard.
That
pay
progression system would take into account teachers
and educators who, at this point in time, do not
have any form of pay progression. That system would
come into operation as from April of 2002.
The
mind
boggles.
Why
was
this
agreement
not
signed, when it is to the benefit of the bulk of
Public
point
Service
in
time,
workers
do
who,
not
at
have
this
a
particular
form
of
pay
progression that acknowledges their outcome? It is
amazing, but I am certain that we will find answers
to this.
I think a further issue to raise is that the shift
towards a multiterm agreement and the commitment to
the imperatives of restructuring will open the way
for a more sustained interaction with our labour
partners on the critical issues of transformation
and conditions of service, because in essence the
11 October 2001
core
business
Page 14 of 225
of
negotiators
cannot
be
simply
negotiating a percentage wage increase.
That would be a narrow, economist approach to the
issue of wage negotiations, which have to take into
account the broader issues. They should facilitate
the
strategy
development
of
addressing
needs
of
needs
public
related
servants
to
and
the
the
shortage of critical skills in particular areas of
the Public Service. Additionally, there is a need
to
prioritise
the
provision
of
the
compulsory
health care package for all public servants. As the
Government
we
believe
that
we
did
everything
possible.
We did negotiate in good faith and with integrity,
and we were flexible about the issues, as we can
see if we trace back the percentage wage increase.
We started with 5%. We went to 5,5%. We actually
jumped to an overall increase of 6,58%. We moved on
the
issue
of
not
having
had
a
clause
in
the
restructuring component, in section 8, that dealt
with the need for consultation and negotiation on
restructuring
in
the
chamber
by
saying
that
we
11 October 2001
would
sit
for
Page 15 of 225
an
uninterrupted
period
from
next
week until 12 December. Now that sounds to me like
flexibility.
We went further to say that from having had an
inflation-related increase, we would have inflation
plus 0,5%. We said inflation plus 1% for the year
thereafter. We also said, in order to cover both
employers
and
below
or
4%
negotiations
employees,
higher
on
the
that
if
inflation
than
7,5%,
we
wage
increases.
was
would
reopen
That
sounds
like flexibility to me.
I need to ask, at this point, whether there are
winners
and
losers.
The
position
taken
by
the
majority of unions raises a number of concerns and
I want to say that there are no winners in this
current
impasse.
commitment
towards
We
have
demonstrated
transformation
and
a
deep
fostering
sustainable economic and employment growth. Central
to this agreement is a more strategic medium-term
approach
designed
to
facilitate
planning
restructuring for improving service delivery.
and
11 October 2001
The
Page 16 of 225
risks
with
undermines
the
multiyear
this
impasse
progressive
agreement
that
will
are
manifold.
It
towards
a
shift
allow
for
greater
predictability and planning of the Public Service's
enhancement over the medium term. This is a demand,
a concern that both Government and labour have had
over the years. It limits the scope for a more
sustained, dynamic and innovative interaction with
our
labour
Government
partners
believes
on
are
critical
issues
important,
that
including
transformation. The proposed agreement includes, as
I said, an increase in salaries and wages that is
above CPIX inflation.
Given these risks, we as Government still believe
that the labour unions and we had much to gain from
accepting this offer. This is particularly true for
those sectors that have already gone through major
restructuring, like education.
Why should educators threaten to strike when the
restructuring
process
in
terms
of
realigning
numbers is done? Why should educators threaten to
strike
when
we
clearly
stated
that
in
terms
of
11 October 2001
Page 17 of 225
restructuring, a sector identified for employment
creation is education? Maybe the House will help me
answer that question.
In the other sectors the package agreement provides
a generous monetary and other benefits for all lowpaid workers, unlike a flat rate of 5% across the
board
that
does
nothing
to
narrow
the
divide
between wages. We had a situation of 8%, 7% and
6,5%.
Does it mean that employees and members of unions
mandated the unions to take the stands they did
take?
We
have
reflected
the
commitment
to
minimising the negative impacts of restructuring,
but
we
felt
that
it
gave
us
an
opportunity
to
jointly confront the much required transformation
and restructuring.
We
cannot
have
a
situation
where
people
in
the
Public Service are digging a hole and filling a
hole
and
taking
a
week
to
do
it.
That
is
not
improving service delivery to the numbers of South
Africans
that
are
entitled
to
effective
and
11 October 2001
Page 18 of 225
efficient service delivery from this Public Service
machinery,
and
we
have
a
responsibility.
We
are
committed to building a developmental state, and
developmental
Public
Service
underpins
that.
A
developmental state does not come about by simple
declaration
or
rhetoric.
It
requires
that
we
transform the Public Service in fundamental ways.
I just need to conclude by saying that as Cabinet
we
took
a
decision
yesterday
that,
in
order
to
overcome the impasse in which public servants for
the past five months had no certainty on increases,
we
are
implementing
the
monetary
side
of
the
agreement that we initially put on the table when
we started negotiations at the end of May, that is,
5% across the board plus R850, and that is because
we
cannot
implement
a
package
deal.
The
package
deal for the gradual increases of between 8% and
6,5% went hand in hand with restructuring, with a
multiterm
agreement,
pay
progression
and
our
in
the
addressing scarce skills.
Our
agreement
chamber,
but
signed
we
have
by
Government
started
the
is
process
to
11 October 2001
Page 19 of 225
implement the 5% and R850. I believe that the House
will
appreciate
the
fact
that,
like
Government,
unions have an important and constructive role to
play
in
assisting
us
to
confront
the
large
challenges in the Public Service sector, but they
need to be strong unions that are willing to drive
in
a
particular
way
and
deal
likewise
with
challenges that may in the short term seem to be
unpopular.
It is a difficult but necessary task, and I hope
the
House
will
understand
our
process
in
this
regard. I want to express thanks to all those who
are walking this road with us. [Applause.]
Ms C S BOTHA: Chairperson, the hon the Minister is
always so articulate that one is almost tempted to
feel sorry for her, but, seeing as I do in the
papers that the unions have come off second best, I
think I should keep my sympathies for them.
The hon the Minister and the unions, or, as she
calls them, her ``labour partners'', remind me very
much
of
two
people
trying
to
learn
to
dance
11 October 2001
Page 20 of 225
together; one step forward, two steps back and in
the process a lot of injured toes and, it seems,
injured children if the teachers' unions are going
to strike. Striking over wage increases tends to
show that one partner wears jackboots to the dance
floor.
This whole wage negotiation saga leaves one with a
sense
of
déjà
vu.
We
annually
go
through
this
painful process for months, only to find that the
discordant
whole
noise
process
is
will
not
start
harmonised
again.
and
One
that
the
wonders
why
they do not get it right.
One of the problems seems to be that the unions
want
to
sing
from
one
song
sheet
only,
called
collective bargaining, while the Minister has her
own
solo,
sometimes
restructuring,
sometimes
no
package deal.
Collective bargaining has the appeal of simplicity
and gives the appearance of uniformity of principle
and intent, ``'n soort van eendrag maak mag'' [a
kind
of
unity
is
strength''],
and
therefore
11 October 2001
deceptive
Page 21 of 225
strength,
but
it
is
actually
a
crude
method of dealing with the divergent needs probably
at the base of the problems that we face now.
It
gives
power
to
the
negotiators
but
it
takes
power away from the people whose interests should
be served. There is a simple answer to Minister
Fraser-Moleketi's dilemma: Get rid of the Public
Service
as
bargaining
in
a
homogenous
the
Public
entity.
Service
is
Collective
obviously
a
stumbling block and these broadband adjustments of
wages are inappropriate.
Last week the Minister warned civil servants and
said that they would get a pay rise of only 5% if
the majority of unions did not accept her offer of
between 6,5% and 8%. This has now happened. It is
clear that some wanted to settle for her offer, so
why
are
they
being
sacrificed
to
the
collective
chorus?
The core issue is that public servants must be paid
what they are worth and the public must get the
11 October 2001
Page 22 of 225
service it deserves. Let us hope that the Minister
is eventually going to get it right. [Applause.]
Mr K D S DURR: Chairperson, I have to say that I
agree with everything the Minister said and I have
to congratulate her on her courage and fortitude.
That is not to say that I do not think that the
Government have not been patient; I think they have
been patient.
The
negotiations
were
long
and
protracted.
The
unions are lucky that they have a sympathetic and
receptive Government that listen to them, but the
Government must also draw the line somewhere.
The fact is, short-termism is the worst possible
approach the Government could adopt now. Unless we
defer consumption, and unless we actually develop
the state, we will be arguing about less and less
as we go forward. In my opinion, after the long and
comprehensive
discussions,
any
reasonable
person
would think that the offer Government have on the
table is a reasonable one. I am sure that business
supports it. I am not sure whether the Minister
11 October 2001
Page 23 of 225
would like to hear that, but nevertheless it is
true.
I know that the Government is doing its best and,
in some respects, is doing extremely well. There
might be a few consumers of the Public Service's
service that think that there have been dramatic
improvements in the services. We see poor service
delivery all over the place. We know that it is
being addressed and we can see improvements, but it
is
a
long
haul
developmental
and
it
picture
is
that
part
the
of
the
Minister
whole
sketched
for us.
When
one
looks
at
the
package
as
such
-
the
notches, the 13th cheques, the 14th cheques, the
merit awards and the other things which go with it
-
our
civil
service
is
well
off,
in
the
who
are
circumstances.
The
large
number
of
unemployed
people
neither part of organised labour nor in the civil
service
will
have
the
greatest
sympathy
for
the
Minister's position. These people know that if the
11 October 2001
Minister
line,
and
they
Page 24 of 225
the
President
will
be
do
squeezed
not
take
out,
a
tough
because
those
resources would then not be directed to the needs
of
the
really
poor
and
disadvantaged
in
our
country.
The Minister said there are no winners. I think
there
are
winners.
If
the
Government
wins
this
round, then South Africa will be a winner, and I
think the unions also. The unions have to be more
responsible.
The other day I was in Port Elizabeth and I saw
that the Mentone clothing factory - all of us have
worn Mentone clothes at some stage in our lives was
closing
down.
It
was
started
in
1940.
Five
hundred people have lost their jobs. These things
are finely balanced.
The
embattled
company
was
on
the
verge
of
a
turnaround, but for a nine-day strike. According to
a
spokesman,
the
company
was,
in
July
2001,
affected by industrial action and go-slows, thus
11 October 2001
Page 25 of 225
losing nine days of production. What happened at
the end of it all?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Order!
Mr K D S DURR: What happened was that 500 people
lost their jobs.
I want to congratulate the hon the Minister on a
job well done. She has our support. [Applause.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Could I remind
members that when I do call on them to indicate
that
their
speaking.
time
It
has
would
expired,
allow
they
the
should
stop
proceedings
to
continue in an orderly way.
Mr
J
O
TLHAGALE:
Chairperson,
hon
Minister,
hon
members of this Council, we hail from a past of
homelands and apartheid systems. The weaknesses of
which systems have repeatedly been articulated in
this
Council.
tricameral
We
also
parliaments,
hail
the
from
a
weaknesses
systems have not often been articulated.
past
of
of
which
11 October 2001
Page 26 of 225
During those eras, things were done for and not in
consultation
with
the
concerned
groups.
The
operative words were ``It is good enough for them.
Dit is goed genoeg vir hulle. E ba lekane.''
The Minister's statement this afternoon serves to
prove how the present era differs from those of the
past where we come from. We are not only being
called, but we are in fact being begged, to come to
the
negotiating
negotiation
table
process
and
regarding
to
basic
continue
the
issues
that
affect our lives.
However, the unions are cautious and noncommittal.
They suspect, or believe, that there is a built-in
clause for restructuring in the agreement dealing
with the restructuring measures. They are quick to
flex their muscles and threaten to go on strike on
the eve of the examination. It is unacceptable to
resort to threats and blackmail of this nature.
The deadline has expired, but one needs to appeal
to all parties involved in this issue to let reason
prevail
and
work
towards
building
mutual
trust
11 October 2001
between
Page 27 of 225
the
two
negotiating
parties.
The
Government, for its part, should continue to woo
the
unions
in
order
to
reach
consensus
in
the
Minister
and
future. [Applause.]
Mr
B
J
MKHALIPHI:
Chairperson,
hon
colleagues, the ANC notes that the Public Service
is
still
tensions
in
are
a
transformation
likely
to
stage
occur,
and
thus
especially
when
dealing with matters concerning service conditions.
We further note that the deliberations are not a
straightforward case, and that the performance of
the
Ministry
and
Government
was
well
considered
under the circumstances.
We further believe that the public servant of the
21st
century
is
critically
conscious
of
Government's responsibility to the greater society,
and not only to public service. The ANC, therefore,
supports
innovative
the
Minister
and
and
consultative
Government
for
its
approach
to
the
negotiations. The ANC is satisfied that a fair and
equitable balance has been achieved in terms of its
proposal of the limited resources of the state and
11 October 2001
Page 28 of 225
the increased remuneration and terms of conditions
of the Public Service sector.
We are convinced of the good faith of Government in
the arduous and protracted negotiations, and in the
approach
addition,
the
we
negotiations
are
also
have
been
taking.
appreciative
of
In
the
integrative approach to enhancing employment. The
increment is also reasonable and above inflation.
We
also
know
that
these
offers
have
been
very
generous under the circumstances.
To respond to some noises from the other side, we
wish to note that the Public Service is not treated
as a homogenous entity, and therefore the agreement
refers to detailed negotiations with the various
sectors represented in the chamber. We should also
note that collective bargaining requires a majority
signature for its implementation of those packages
that have been offered in the negotiating chamber.
We are utterly confident that the ANC as Government
will never be found wanting in a process that it
pioneered from the start. [Applause.]
11 October 2001
Page 29 of 225
Debate concluded.
PUBLIC WORKS AND INFRASTRUCTURAL DEVELOPMENT: A
TOOL TO ADDRESS POVERTY
(Subject for Discussion)
THE MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Chairperson and hon
members, I must say that I am really happy that
this topic has been suggested by the NCOP for the
simple
reason
that,
at
times,
people
know
that
there are Government programmes, but cannot really
say what these programmes are all about. Also, in a
number of statements that have been made at the
level of Government, we actually put the question
of poverty, not only as an issue that is there, but
as an issue that we as the people of South Africa
need to eradicate. And, as Government, too, we have
set up an ambitious programme through which, as a
collective of departments, we hope to do a fair
amount in the eradication of poverty.
If one looks at the programme as we have it in the
Department of Public Works, it was actually started
11 October 2001
Page 30 of 225
as a specific job creation exercise, which targeted
a number of rural areas. The aim of this was to
create short-term employment opportunities wherein
members of the various communities could construct
public
assets.
Later
on
it
was
felt
that
the
important thing was not just the construction of
these
assets,
but
also
ensuring
that
they
were
sustainable in nature.
When we deal with these projects, we emphasise that
local labour should be used. At least 30% of the
labour from the projects should come from the local
people.
We
also
emphasise
that
women
should
be
employed, and we put the figure at 50%. We also say
that 15% of youth should be employed, especially
because
a
number
of
them
have
left
school
and
cannot find employment, and that consideration of
1,5% should also be given to the disabled.
Since its inception in 1994-95, the programme has
actually
undergone
a
lot
of
changes
and
improvements. We do want to believe that in order
for hon members to understand, we have to give them
a
little
background.
Those
who
were
here
will
11 October 2001
remember
that
Page 31 of 225
1994
to
1996
was
regarded
as
the
pilot project phase. During this phase we had the
RDP,
and
from
the
RDP
funds
R250
million
was
allocated for these projects, which are communitybased. They were the ones that started the pilot
projects.
Initially, the implementing agents were the various
provincial
initially
departments
made
sure
of
that
public
some
works.
of
the
We
also
NGOs
were
involved, and that IDT, in terms of which we have
the Ministry is entitled to the shareholding, was
also involved. At the time a number of the people
queried
why
IDT
was
involved,
but
the
logical
answer was that it had already been involved in the
building of schools in a number of areas in the
country.
Thereafter
we
graduated
from
that
pilot
project
phase to the 1996 to 1999 phase, wherein we felt
that
there
themselves.
exercise
was
a
First
carried
need
of
out
to
all,
by
realign
we
had
what
is
the
an
projects
evaluation
known
as
the
Community Agency for Social Enquiry, that is, Case,
11 October 2001
Page 32 of 225
and also by the International Labour Organisation,
known as the ILO. If hon members remember, Public
Works then got the award for being the best-run
exercise in Southern Africa.
This
evaluation,
which
was
undertaken,
actually
indicated that we needed to realign the strategic
direction of the programme so that it could be more
focused.
Then
we
had
to
make
some
institutional
arrangements and make sure that the focus was more
on
sustainability.
This
is
because
one
can
understand that when one builds a structure today,
people get temporary jobs, but thereafter there are
no sustainable jobs.
The
issues
that
were
dealt
with
then
were
put
through what we called the preimplenting task team,
which was given the mandate to plan and implement
future programmes. What we realised was that one of
the outcomes from such an exercise had to do with
targeting. The recommendation there was that the
focus be on rural women and youth, that a balance
be created in those areas with poverty pockets and
that if we were talking about development of areas,
11 October 2001
we
should
Page 33 of 225
actually
have
economic
nodes
in
those
areas.
We also realised that development cannot be treated
like a gumtree. A gumtree grows up on its own. The
important thing was that we needed to cluster our
projects and make sure that they talked to each
other
for
effectiveness,
because
if
hon
members
will remember, as the President said the other day,
a clinic would be built, while there will be no
road leading to it and no water for the clinic.
But, the clustering has led to different Ministries
coming together and providing an effective service.
It also became important that there should be a
monitoring
of
the
projects,
provincial
departments
of
which
Public
we
asked
Works
to
the
co-
ordinate.
I am sure that hon members are exposed to some of
the work that we are doing in their areas. One of
the problems we have is that, apart from dealing
directly
with
projects
and
poverty,
community
for
example
gardens,
we
agricultural
also
deal with issues around social cohesion.
have
to
11 October 2001
Page 34 of 225
How many times have we had people in rural areas
not even having a decent hall in which to have
meetings? Even if halls are there, there are no
kitchen or toilet facilities. And we felt that if
we wanted to give dignity to a people, we also had
to give them facilities that had a social impact.
Hence, the start of the multipurpose halls that we
have in a number of areas. Because these areas were
rural, it became important that the implementing
agent
should
change,
as
I
have
provincial
departments
to
authorities,
so
district
themselves
that
could
the
have
the
said,
local
from
the
government
municipalities
overall
programme
management of what we were doing, could be involved
in training in various communities and be able to
point out the local contractors to be used so that
people
could
projects
be
trained
themselves
were
to
make
sure
that
the
sustainable.
And,
of
course, the budget which covers project funding and
support services came from the Department of Public
Works itself.
I have said that this meant that there was a role
change
from
what
the
provinces
were
doing
by
11 October 2001
Page 35 of 225
allowing the municipalities to be the implementing
agents.
All
that
the
provinces
had
to
do
independently was to co-ordinate and monitor what
was happening in these projects, something that was
done very well in some of the provinces, but we
still have a few problems with monitoring.
Through
this
monitoring,
we
want
to
capture
and
evaluate whether we have programmes for programmes'
sake and whether they have an impact on the people.
This reminds me of when I was a teacher, and a
question was put to Unicef: Was it going to have
education
for
education's
sake
or
the
type
of
education that would help the country to grow, gain
skills,
etc?
The
approach
that
we
have
followed
with the projects is to make sure that there is an
impact and difference to the lives of the people
within the community.
We
have
some
technical
names
for
some
of
the
techniques that we use for monitoring. Since hon
members are going to get copies of the speech, and
I am looking at the time factor, I will not be
going
too
deeply
into
that.
But
one
of
the
11 October 2001
Page 36 of 225
programmes and the systems that we are using for
monitoring is called the management and information
systems
or
MMIS.
This
system
has
been
developed
over the last two years and contains all the key
performance
indicators
for
successful
implementation.
According to the monitoring and evaluation unit in
the Presidency, the programme that we are dealing
with,
as
Public
Works,
is
one
of
only
two
programmes with a successful monitoring system. I
am not trying to boast but I am stating a fact.
We
also
felt
that
we
had
to
really
align
this
programme because life has changed a lot and still
changes even in South Africa, and we called it the
new dimensions phase. This phase actually refers to
the development of the Community-Based Public Works
project, wherein we try and make sure that there is
capacity, especially amongst the people who deal
with some of our projects, so that they are able to
deal with specific imperatives, and also make sure
that we forge partnerships and co-ordination with a
number
of
stakeholders
so
that
the
projects
11 October 2001
Page 37 of 225
themselves are successful. The reason for that, as
I
said,
is
project,
That
that
one
is
if
can
why,
one
is
actually
when
not
make
a
the
Government
gumtree
most
in
a
impact.
introduced
the
Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Strategy,
we felt that we had done part of the walking into
the realisation of that strategy because of the 30
nodes,
as
pointed
out
by
Government.
We
already
have programmes in 11 of those nodes.
I
want
hon
members
to
realise
that
in
any
government situation, the creation of capacity is
necessary
project.
because
Even
in
it
is
the
what
makes
day-to-day
or
breaks
running
of
a
our
individual departments, if capacity is not of the
right
type,
for
example
if
Public
Works
has
engineers who just do a 9:00 to 4:30 job but do not
go out into the field and make sure that things
happen, we will not have a department that is on
the move.
My
director-general,
who
is
here
with
us
today,
coined a new name for how we approach work and
called
it
``working
smarter''.
Some
of
these
11 October 2001
Page 38 of 225
changes that we are making are to actually say that
we want to work smarter. I am deviating because if
hon
members
had
asked
me
to
speak
about
Public
Works, I would have had to tell them some of these
things.
I
am
halfway
through.
[Time
expired.]
[Applause.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Hon Minister, I
think that you are very correct in saying that we
must invite you more often. I am sure that the
members would agree with that.
Ms B THOMSON: Chairperson, I believe that our role
in
Government
is
to
look
critically
at
how
we
implement the principles of transformation, which
begins to give back to our impoverished communities
both that which was forcibly removed from them and
that which they were denied.
Currently in South Africa there is no end to what
can
be
repaired,
replaced,
reconstructed
or
developed to ensure that the lives of our parents
and colleagues are dramatically improved. Indeed,
showing
visible
improvement
in
the
lives
of
our
11 October 2001
people
Page 39 of 225
becomes
the
yardstick
against
which
everything we do is measured.
We believe that the Department of Public Works is a
strategic
role-player
in
assisting
all
other
departments in achieving this collective goal of
quality delivery and improvement in conditions.
Kafishane, sizama ukuthi kucace kuthi bha ukuthi
umnyango
kaNgqongqoshe
yiwona
ongumgogodla
wayo
yonke eminye iminyango. Uma umnyango kaNgqongqoshe
ubukeka
sengathi
kuyokwenza
iminyango
ngenxa
ukuthi
unezikhinsi
kube
kahulumeni
yezikhinsi
owethu
lula
ukuthi
ikhalakathele
ezingadalwa
angingasho
noma
yonke
lapho
umnyango
ukuthi
izigodi,
eminye
phakathi
-
angithi
okamhlonishwa.
(Translation of Zulu paragraph follows.)
[In
short,
we
are
trying
to
clarify
that
the
department of the Minister is the backbone of all
other departments. If there is a hole in it, it
will be easy for other departments to fall into
that hole. In fact I should say our department, not
the department of the Minister.]
11 October 2001
By
way
of
Page 40 of 225
illustration,
I
want
to
share
with
members that a few weeks ago the Select Committee
on
Social
close
Services
demonstrated
interrelationship
between
how
vital
sectors
was.
this
The
committee was exploring what factors were directly
or indirectly interfering with the processing of
new applications for child support grants in the
Western Cape, thereby preventing needy mothers from
gaining access to this much-needed grant.
Three
Health
departments,
and
Home
that
Affairs,
is
Social
were
Development,
invited
to
this
meeting to demonstrate what each of the departments
was doing to facilitate the smooth application and
processing of the birth registration, followed by
the grant application process.
What became apparent during the interaction was the
fact that all these departments needed access to
adequate
facilities
within
easy
reach
of
communities. These kinds of facilities, as is the
case with most state-owned property, fall directly
within the jurisdiction of the Department of Public
11 October 2001
Page 41 of 225
Works. The Department of Public Works held the key
to access.
Each of the departments present, when questioned by
the committee, complained in turn that they did not
have adequate offices close to the people in order
to
provide
services.
easy
access
Unfortunately
to
the
these
much-needed
Department
of
Public
Works was not present to explain their role and
what
went
wrong
within
their
department
in
the
provision of the vital childcare grant application
service.
But,
clearly,
the
lack
of
adequate
facilities for whatever reason led to unnecessary
hardship, forcing desperate mothers and children to
starve
when
government
money
was
available.
All
that was needed to complete the process was access
to facilities and people who cared.
Another
example
of
the
challenges
facing
the
Department of Public Works and their capacity to
deliver
demonstrated
infrastructural
when
the
NCOP
development
Select
Committee
was
on
Public Works went to the Eastern Cape to assess the
11 October 2001
aftermath
of
Page 42 of 225
the
floods,
which
happened
earlier
this year.
The
committee
had
expected
to
see
how
all
the
affected departments, including the Department of
Public Works, were advancing in their endeavours to
rebuild communities after such a terrible natural
disaster.
What
we
found
were
freshly
appointed
cleanup crews that had only just begun to clear the
destruction
and
to
add
insult
to
injury,
the
cleanup crews informed the committee members that
the
cleanup
Parliament
had
was
begun
because
coming
in
a
order
committee
to
from
hold
an
inspection.
Clearly, these kinds of responses to our people's
needs were not what the Minister meant when she
launched
her
programme
and
Programme.
emphasis
our
Both
on
``work
of
strong
smart''
Community-Based
these
work
transformation
Public
programmes
ethics.
In
Works
place
fact,
an
the
Minister told us that she had given a brand new
name to the programme, which is`` Letsima'' or``
11 October 2001
Page 43 of 225
Ilima''. We all know that this embraces the African
work ethic of doing things together.
We know that those 981 community projects that the
department helped to get off the ground last year
and the 22 619 people that the department helped
get
jobs,
as
mentioned
in
the
Minister's
Budget
debate speech this year, represent only the tip of
the iceberg with regard to delivery to the people.
We
know
of
the
noble
transformation-based
is
currently
efforts
policies
engaged
in,
that
and
made
the
we
by
the
department
commend
the
Minister and her department for all her efforts.
But
we
would
be
representatives
Minister
failing
if
tangible
we
in
did
proof
our
duty
as
public
not
outline
to
the
the
failure
of
the
of
transformation policy at its implementation stage.
I personally bear testimony to the absolute waste
of government facilities in my province of KwaZuluNatal. On the route to my constituency there are a
number
of
centres,
examples
clinics
of
and
newly
other
built
multipurpose
facilities
that
are
locked up to the public or that stand in the middle
11 October 2001
Page 44 of 225
of nowhere as white elephants, because Public Works
and
other
other
departments
before
did
not
construction
consult
began.
with
This
each
is
an
untenable situation.
Noma-ke
mhlonishwa
iphutha
singalibeka
kuhulumeni
amehlo
ngingeke
wesifunda
kaNgqongqoshe
ngiqiniseke
kuHulumeni
kodwa
nje
siwadonsele
ukuthi
omkhulu
besifuna
noma
ukuthi
ngakulolu
hlelo
lokwenza izinto emnyangweni wakhe. (Translation of
Zulu paragraph follows.)
[Hon member, although I am sure we can blame the
national Government or the provincial government,
however, we would like to draw the attention of the
Minister to the plan of working in his department.]
In our democracy today, we have to be vigilant in
our
plans
communities.
of
bringing
This
is
about
especially
change
true
in
after
our
the
local government elections. The new animal, local
government, must not make the same mistakes we did
nationally and provincially. Unless all spheres of
government, all departments and all representatives
11 October 2001
of
civil
Page 45 of 225
societies
consolidated
IDP
sit
down
plans,
together
we
are
in
and
create
danger
of
duplicating all the expensive lessons learnt in the
past.
Intergovernmental
co-operation
and
intersectoral
support must become a mantra before each of the
spheres
of
government
begins
to
tackle
new
projects. All priorities should become aligned, so
that
collective
resources
can
work
in
tandem
towards the common good of improving the lives of
our people.
Siyacabanga ukuthi umhlonishwa angeke ayithathe le
nkulumo njengohlaselo, siyamqwashisa ngoba siyabona
ukuthi
uma
singamqwashisi
ngathi
sizokonakalelwa.
[Ihlombe.] (Translation of Zulu paragraph follows.)
[We think that the hon member will not take this
speech as an attack on him. We would like to warn
him, because if we do not do that, things will not
go well. [Applause.]]
11 October 2001
Page 46 of 225
Dr P J C NEL: Voorsitter, dit is in belang van die
land dat ons vandag in hierdie Huis debat voer oor
die prestasies, al dan nie, van die Departement van
Openbare Werke, na aanleiding van 'n verslag wat
opgestel is deur Kgoshi Mokoena ná 'n afvaardiging
van
die
Gekose
Komitee
oor
Openbare
Dienste
die
Oos-Kaap besoek het.
Vandag
wil
ek
net
kortliks
na
die
bogenoemde
verslag verwys deur te sê dat dit wat daarin staan,
absoluut skokkend is. Dit getuig deurgaans van die
onvermoë van die Departement van Openbare Werke om
lewensbelangrike
staatsgeboue,
infrastruktuur
byvoorbeeld
soos
hospitale
en
paaie
en
skole,
in
stand te hou, asook die versuim om deeglik toesig
te hou oor dít wat die Departement van Openbare
Werke, Paaie en Vervoer in die bepaalde provinsie
probeer
doen
met
die
minimale
fondse
tot
hul
beskikking. Dit blyk ook duidelik uit die verslag
dat die Departement van Openbare Werke nie daarin
kon slaag om die krisis wat ontstaan het, as gevolg
van skade aangerig deur erge vloede sedert 1998,
die hoof te bied nie.
11 October 2001
Page 47 of 225
Genadiglik was die Vrystaat nie so erg geteister
deur vloedskade nie. Dit beteken egter nie dat die
infrastruktuur,
veral
die
padnetwerk
in
die
Vrystaat, nie agteruitgegaan het die afgelope jare
nie.
Inteendeel,
dit
het
met
rasse
skrede
agteruitgegaan, soveel só dat die LUR nou bekend
staan as die minister van slaggate. Die hoofoorsaak
vir hierdie agteruitgang was deurgaans deur die agb
LUR vir Openbare Werke, Paaie en Vervoer aangegee
as
'n
tekort
Dieselfde
méér
LUR
geld
aan
het
nou
fondse
egter
hopelik
vir
onlangs
vir
instandhouding.
aangekondig
padkonstruksie
en
dat
die
instandhouding daarvan beskikbaar gaan wees, weens
die feit dat die agb LUR die nasionale departement,
volgens hom, kon oorreed om die instandhouding van
sekere provinsiale paaie oor te neem.
Dáárvoor wil my party die agb LUR komplimenteer.
Ons
wil
ook
ons
uitspreek,
veral
Padagentskap
nou
dank
en
omdat
waardering
die
SA
verantwoordelikheid
teenoor
hom
Nasionale
aanvaar
vir
die meeste deurpaaie. Dit is goed, want die ergste
skade
aan
hierdie
paaie
word
aangerig
deur
11 October 2001
swaarvoertuie
Page 48 of 225
van
ander
provinsies
wat
deur
die
Vrystaat ry.
Die genoemde blydskap het egter vervaag nadat ek 'n
persberig,
betreffende
die
Ouditeur-Generaal
se
verslag oor die Vrystaatse Departement van Openbare
Werke, Paaie en Vervoer, gelees het. Ek haal aan
uit Die Volksblad van 1 Oktober 2001:
Stawende bewyse vir uitgawes van miljoene rande
deur die Departement van Openbare Werke, Paaie en
Vervoer van die Vrystaat kon nie voorgelê word
nie. Die verhaalbaarheid van agterstallige skuld
van
miljoene
rande
twyfelagtig.
staatsbates
Dié
het
aan
dié
departement
departement
nie
'n
met
volledige
is
al
sy
lys
van
verhuurbare eiendomme nie - sy huurinkomste kan
dus nie gestaaf word nie.
Die
staatsgarage
volledige
lys
of
self
kon
register
in
van
2000
voertuie
nie
'n
voorlê
nie. Vroeër vanjaar kon 'n verskil van sowat R26
miljoen
tussen
inskrywings
in
die
11 October 2001
Page 49 of 225
vastebateregister en die algemene grootboek nie
verduidelik word nie.
Weens
die
aard
tekortkominge
en
en
die
omvang
van
die
ernstige
in
die
geldsake
onreëlmatighede
van die Vrystaatse Departement van Openbare Werke,
Paaie en Vervoer, het die Ouditeur-Generaal homself
daarvan weerhou om 'n mening uit te spreek. Dit is
ontstellend! Ek kan u verseker dat die aanhaling
wat ek gelees het maar net die punt van die ysberg
is. Daar is nog vele meer bevindinge in die verslag
wat jou hart wil laat staan.
Ek sê hierdie verslag is onstellend, want al beweer
die agb LUR in die Vrystaat dat daar nou meer geld
beskikbaar
gaan
wees,
wonder
'n
mens
egter
of
hierdie fondse nie maar weer net op dieselfde wyse
vermors en verduister gaan word nie. My party is
veral bekommerd oor die feit dat, in 'n antwoord op
'n vraag aan hierdie LUR gestel, ons verneem het
dat die Vrystaatse padnetwerk, bestaande uit 7000
km teerpaaie, 21 500 km gruispaaie, en 22 000 km
tersiëre paaie, in 'n swak toestand is.
11 October 2001
Page 50 of 225
Betreffende die primêre paaie, is 12% in 'n uiters
swak toestand, 32% in 'n swak toestand, 35% in 'n
redelike toestand, en net 20% in 'n goeie toestand.
Betreffende gruispaaie in die platteland, is 20% in
'n baie swak toestand, 33% in 'n swak toestand, 23%
in 'n redelike toestand, en net 14% in 'n goeie
toestand. Volgens die agb LUR is daar 'n tekort aan
R1,7 miljard net vir die hergruis van gruispaaie en
die herseël van teerpaaie.
Dit is dus nodig dat elke beskikbare sent op die
regte
wyse
aangewend
infrastruktuur
onderhou
word.
As
nie,
gaan
ons
ons
nie
ons
ekonomie
skade ly en gaan armoede net vererger. Ek hoop dat
die Departement van Openbare Werke nie net uit die
foute van die verlede geleer het hoe om nuwe foute
te maak nie. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans
speech follows.)
[Dr P J C NEL: Chairperson, it is in the interests
of the country that we debate in this House today
the
achievements,
or
not,
of
the
Department
of
Public Works, following a report drafted by Chief
Mokoena
after
a
delegation
from
the
Select
11 October 2001
Page 51 of 225
Committee on Public Services visited the Eastern
Cape.
Today
I
want
to
refer
aforementioned
report
contained
it
in
consistently
only
by
is
briefly
saying
that
absolutely
attests
to
the
to
the
what
is
shocking.
It
inability
of
the
Department of Public Works to maintain essential
infrastructure,
such
as
roads
and
Government
buildings, for example hospitals and schools, as
well as the failure to thoroughly supervise that
which
the
department
of
public
works,
roads
and
transport, in the province in question tries to do
with the minimal funds at its disposal. It is also
clear from the report that the Department of Public
Works could not succeed in solving the crisis which
arose
as
a
result
of
damage
caused
by
serious
flooding since 1998.
Mercifully,
the
ravaged
flood
by
Free
State
damage.
was
not
However,
so
this
seriously
does
not
mean that the infrastructure, particularly the road
network in the Free State, has not deteriorated in
the
past
years.
On
the
contrary,
it
has
11 October 2001
Page 52 of 225
deteriorated with rapid strides, so much so that
the MEC is now known as the minister of potholes.
The
primary
reason
for
this
deterioration
was
consistently given by the hon MEC for public works,
roads and transport, as a shortage of funds for
maintenance.
announced
However,
that
more
the
money
same
will
MEC
now
recently
hopefully
be
available for road construction and maintenance, as
a result of the fact that the hon MEC, according to
him, was able to convince the national department
to take over the maintenance of certain provincial
roads.
My party would like to compliment the hon MEC on
that.
We
also
want
to
express
our
thanks
and
appreciation towards him, particularly because the
SA
National
Roads
Agency
responsibility
for
most
good,
because
the
most
roads
is
caused
by
has
through
serious
heavy
now
roads.
damage
vehicles
accepted
This
is
to
these
from
other
provinces which drive through the Free State.
However, the aforementioned joy faded after I read
a
news
report
regarding
the
Auditor-General's
11 October 2001
report
on
works,
roads
Page 53 of 225
the
Free
and
State
department
transport.
I
of
quote
public
from
Die
Volksblad of 1 October 2001:
Stawende bewyse vir uitgawes van miljoene rande
deur die Departement van Openbare Werke, Paaie en
Vervoer van die Vrystaat kon nie voorgelê word
nie. Die verhaalbaarheid van agterstallige skuld
van
miljoene
rande
twyfelagtig.
staatsbates
Dié
het
aan
dié
departement
departement
nie
'n
met
volledige
is
al
sy
lys
van
verhuurbare eiendomme nie - sy huurinkomste kan
dus nie gestaaf word nie.
Die
staatsgarage
volledige
lys
of
self
kon
register
in
van
2000
nie
voertuie
'n
voorlê
nie. Vroeër vanjaar kon 'n verskil van sowat R26
miljoen
tussen
inskrywings
in
die
vastebateregister en die algemene grootboek nie
verduidelik word nie.
As a result of the nature and extent of the serious
shortcomings
and
irregularities
in
the
financial
matters of the department of public works, roads
11 October 2001
Page 54 of 225
and transport, the Auditor-General refrained from
expressing
assure
an
you
opinion.
that
the
This
is
quotation
upsetting!
which
I
I
read
can
is
merely the tip of the iceberg. There are many more
findings in the report which will make your heart
miss a beat.
I
say
that
this
report
is
upsetting,
because
although the hon MEC in the Free State alleges that
more
money
whether
will
these
now
funds
be
are
available,
not
simply
one
going
wonders
to
be
wasted and embezzled in the same way. My party is
particularly concerned about the fact that, in a
reply to a question put to this MEC, we learnt that
the Free State road network, consisting of 7 000
kilometres of tarred roads, 21 500 km of gravel
roads and 22 000 km of tertiary roads, is in a poor
condition.
Regarding
the
primary
roads,
12%
are
in
an
extremely poor condition, 32% in a poor condition,
35% in a reasonable condition, and only 20% in a
good condition. Regarding gravel roads in the rural
areas, 20% are in a very poor condition, 33% in a
11 October 2001
Page 55 of 225
poor condition, 23% in a reasonable condition and
only 14% in a good condition. According to the hon
MEC there is a shortage of R1,7 billion for the
regravelling of gravel roads and the resealing of
tarred roads alone.
It is therefore necessary that every available cent
be utilised in the right way. If we do not maintain
our infrastructure our economy is going to suffer
and poverty will simply worsen. I hope that the
Department of Public Works has not merely learnt
from
the
mistakes
of
the
past
how
to
make
new
mistakes. [Applause.]]
Kgoshi
M
L
MOKOENA:
Chairperson,
on
26
February
this year the Select Committee on Public Service
undertook a study tour to the Eastern Cape. The
main aim of this visit was to find out how povertyalleviation
programmes
were
functioning.
We
also
wanted to see the condition of roads in that part
of the country.
Poverty
serious
is
widely
problems
acknowledged
facing
as
one
post-apartheid
of
the
South
11 October 2001
Page 56 of 225
Africa. This department is right at the centre of
some of these programmes, hence it is through it
that the Government intends flushing poverty out of
our people's lives.
A recent study has shown that close to 70% of South
Africa's rural people, of whom a larger majority
are
blacks,
are
poverty-stricken.
Poverty
has
a
significant gender characteristic. The poverty rate
amongst female-headed households was 60% in 1995,
considerably
higher
than
the
31%
in
male-headed
households.
The Government could not take this scenario very
lightly. The Government decided to confront this
situation head-on and came up with a plan. For any
plan
to
supervision
be
and
implemented,
monitoring.
one
For
needs
proper
example,
the
national department has come up with some plans to
construct roads in order to create jobs for our
people.
Let us take the Eastern Cape, for example. During
our visit we went to an area called Qhoboshianeng,
11 October 2001
Page 57 of 225
where a bridge was being constructed, with 40 women
employed
there.
Unfortunately,
as
I
am
speaking
now, they have been told to pack and go because
there are insufficient funds to continue with the
construction. The families of those 40 women are
now beggars, not knowing where their next slice of
brown bread will come from.
The committee also visited Spundu access road in
Mount Ayliff, that is roads T110 and T109. The two
projects
people.
were
aimed
at
Unfortunately,
as
creating
I
am
jobs
speaking
for
our
to
hon
members, those projects have been stopped.
The committee was not impressed with the condition
of some of the roads, for example road T115 from
Mount Frere to Mount Fletcher, and road T100 from
Mount Frere to Lugangeni. I know I am talking about
the areas which the hon the Minister knows very
well.
Roads
such
as
T69
from
Maluti
to
the
Lesotho
border, connecting Mpotseng village, road T77 in
Mount Frere and road 56 to Lekgatlana are not in
11 October 2001
Page 58 of 225
good condition. However, we were impressed because
officials
in
that
province
informed
us
that
something will be done to make sure that people are
employed to work on those roads, local people that
is. Unfortunately the condition of those roads was
very, very bad. We could not believe what we saw at
Thabachicha.
We were reliably informed that the roads were last
graded
in
1986.
confirmed
this
Officials
information.
from
that
For
province
example,
the
committee took an hour travelling between roads T77
and T74, simply because there was no road to speak
of. It was just dongas. The problem lies not with
the national department, but with the provincial
department.
Why?
There
is
no
supervision
or
monitoring.
Yes, it is true, we find all those problems mostly
in roads which are manned by provinces. In one camp
a
grader
was
parked
beside
the
road
three months because of a flat tire.
for
almost
11 October 2001
Page 59 of 225
We discovered that at Mzimvubu District Council,
some officials said that it was normal for a grader
to be parked for even two months, because there
were
no
funds
to
put
in
the
diesel.
When
we
enquired as to whether the national department was
aware
of
this,
they
said
that
one
official
was
mandated to phone the department - not to write a
letter to it, but to phone it.
At the Umzimkhulu District Council, at Embuzweni
village,
we
discovered
something
very
strange.
There was this construction company, which was to
repair the slates at the R56. The two slates in
question were badly done by the same construction
company. The road cracked and the gravel road was
washed away or went flat. The provincial department
rehired the same company to re-do the job for an
extra, additional fee. I do not know what to call
this.
At one camp, workers unashamedly informed us that
they were clocking in at 12:00 and knocking off at
15:30. They were so surprised when we questioned
that arrangement. They could not even understand
11 October 2001
Page 60 of 225
why we queried one of their workers coming to work
``poep'' drunk. [Interjections.] The cause of all
this ... [Laughter.]
Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Madam Chair, on a point of
order, and for the sake of the dignity of this
House:
The
expression
``poep
drunk''
is
not
parliamentary. [Laughter.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! You are raising
a point of order. Mr Mokoena, could you just make
sure that your language is parliamentary? In the
past we have made reference to us needing to use
appropriate language and terminology in the House.
Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, I want to thank
you for your ruling, and I want to thank my loyal
subject for advising me. [Laughter.]
As
I
said,
supervision
the
cause
of
all
and
monitoring.
this
What
is
we
lack
saw
of
was,
`Everybody for himself, but God for us all.'' They
are just like those people who are not ashamed to
11 October 2001
Page 61 of 225
hand out their business cards at funerals, or see
nothing wrong in putting salt in a sugar container.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! I am afraid
your time has expired.
Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Oh, my God! [Applause.]
Mr N M RAJU: Chair, hon Minister, hon colleagues,
the reduction of poverty and inequality remains the
objective of not only the Government, but all South
Africans. Access to quality employment is critical
to achieving a sustainable livelihood. It is almost
trite to say that high levels of poverty prevail in
rural
areas,
especially
among
the
agricultural
workers who seem to be the worst hit.
In
this
context,
unemployment
is
certainly
a
significant contributor to poverty. One of the many
ways to address the unemployment situation would be
to
establish
programmes,
and
community-based
the
hon
the
public
Minister,
works
in
her
introductory remarks, spoke at length about these
11 October 2001
local
Page 62 of 225
community-based
programmes
that
the
department is engaged in.
There
is
no
doubt
that
these
programmes,
if
properly handled, play a very important role in the
delivery
of
services
and
infrastructure
to
the
disadvantaged communities. It is the disadvantaged
communities
that
seem
to
bear
the
brunt
of
inadequate or poor roads, or inadequate facilities
such as clinics, schools and community halls.
Once upon a time the main barrier to entry into the
labour
market
discrimination
Today,
of
in
on
the
this
basis
course,
country
of
race
was
direct
and
gender.
nondiscriminatory
labour
practices are par for the course.
I wish to point out that, though poverty in South
Africa
is
not
confined
to
one
race
only,
the
unpalatable fact that we must face is that poverty
is mainly concentrated among black South Africans.
It is estimated that over 60% of Africans are in
the poverty trap.
11 October 2001
Page 63 of 225
My friend Kgoshi Mokoena, on the other hand, spoke
at length about the importance of roads as access
to communities. He painted a rather dreary picture
of the poor condition in which some of the roads
are, especially in rural areas.
We
cannot
deny
that
if
a
community
has
been
isolated and almost forgotten because of bad roads,
or lack of access to roads, then that community is
denied empowerment. In my view, having useful roads
to communities that are isolated and away from the
developed areas is important, because that gives
them empowerment.
I do not have to go and sketch a picture about how
our old people, and even young school children, in
some cases, have to travel long distances, through
dongas, narrow paths that have been made off the
beaten track. It is important that these people are
provided with, at least, a modicum of decent roads
so
that
they
can
not
only
use
these
roads
for
walking to their destinations and so on, but so
that taxis, buses and other forms of road transport
can also be adequately used.
11 October 2001
Page 64 of 225
I think that the hon the Minister set the tone when
she
said
that
in
some
of
these
construction
exercises and the programmes, local content must be
used. That is a very important factor, because too
often we blame people or communities for expecting
hand-outs from the Government, for not wanting to
do anything of their own accord and for expecting
the Government to be a charitable organisation or
something.
When we realise that local people can be engaged in
helping themselves, in involving themselves in any
construction
project,
whether
it
be
a
road,
community hall, or school, there is a sense of not
only empowerment, but more importantly, pride and
ownership.
No
more
do
we
have
things
that
are
foisted on the communities.
I know that my colleague Barbara Thomson did refer
to
instances
schools,
halls
of
some
of
or
whatever
these
being
institutions,
built
and
then
remaining as white elephants which are not used by
the
people.
Minister,
I
the
think
that,
Government
in
is
fairness
now
to
the
engaged
in
11 October 2001
partnership
Page 65 of 225
projects,
in
getting
to
involve
the
communities in whatever projects they might have,
so that whatever construction is being done there
is a common partnership affair and there is a sense
of belonging.
The
hon
the
Minister
also
referred
to
the
involvement of the youth, which is very important
in job creation opportunities. The problem is that
our
youth
show
reluctance
to
get
involved
in
development programmes at community level. That is
because there is the unfortunate perception that
some of these job creation programmes, especially
in the rural areas, assault their dignity because
the
is
that
of
with
income
palpably
their
low
urban
and
not
peers.
commensurate
That
is
an
unfortunate situation. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mr
B
J
MKHALIPHI:
Chairperson,
hon
Minister
and
colleagues, if one looks at the principles embraced
in our RDP and compares them to the reality of
reconstruction and development on the ground, then
one cannot help being discouraged. The Department
of Public Works, it seems, has drastically moved
11 October 2001
Page 66 of 225
away from the very purpose contained in the RDP
which formed the very backbone of the constitution
of the Community-Based Public Works Programmes.
I am saying this not because I want to be unduly
critical, but because I was part of the delegation
that went to the Eastern Cape earlier this year and
observed,
first-hand,
the
deplorable
state
of
affairs in the Department of Public Works. I am
reluctant
to
focus
my
attention
on
the
Eastern
Cape, because it is not an exclusively Eastern Cape
problem. My province has such problems as well, and
I have witnessed some of them.
When what we observed in the Eastern Cape is even
duplicated
untenable
in
another
situation
province,
that
cannot
then
be
it
is
an
allowed
to
continue unchanged. In some of the offices in this
department, especially the road works department,
there is no work ethic. Workers are like tourists,
coming in and leaving whenever they feel the urge.
Management is conspicuous in its absence and the
needs of the people on the ground are often left
entirely out of the equation.
11 October 2001
May
I
bring
province,
Page 67 of 225
to
the
Mpumalanga,
Minister's
and
the
attention
role
my
that
own
Public
Works has played in alleviating the plight of the
poor. One must in fairness acknowledge that some
work, some considerable work, has been seen to be
and is being done right now. Some of the poverty
alleviation
projects
gave
rise
to
flourishing
businesses that now are running on their own. I am
not hearing any applause for the Minister here.
The
standards
of
roads
and
other
facilities
are
very high; so much so that people are all flocking
to become part of this corridor. I have an example
in mind, namely the Maputo Development Corridor. It
has created so many other businesses and activities
that now only the private sector is visible - as if
there was no government, no public representatives.
This, I am afraid, has gone in some ways that we
did
not
expect.
It
has
had
some
unintended
consequences. I must admit that it is good and bad
as
well.
On
the
one
hand
everyone
has
a
real
opportunity to participate in a viable project that
encourages
social
upliftment
and
black
economic
11 October 2001
Page 68 of 225
empowerment. The disadvantage is that sometimes it
only
benefits
those
in
close
proximity
to
those
projects, and is to the detriment of others. We
would find, for example, that the quality of roads
and other infrastructure outside of these preferred
areas
is
substandard
disadvantage
villages
and
is
that
towns
by
people
and
comparison.
are
converging
Another
leaving
their
along
those
development corridors, in an effort to get in on
this gravy.
Another disturbing trend in my province is the lack
of attention that the Department of Public Works
gives to the upgrading of national roads. For the
last two years there have been signs all along the
roads, warning motorists about dangerous potholes.
I guess these signs warning about potholes remain
there even after these roads have been fixed. This
action by itself is commendable, but if one takes
into account that nothing has been done for the
past two years to improve the roads, then one has
to wonder whether potholes in the roads, like farm
animals wandering across the highways, are now to
be considered the norm. The case of stray animals
11 October 2001
Page 69 of 225
has more to do with the community at large. We as
public representatives have a role to play there.
An
area
caution
I
would
in
is
consultants.
The
obvious,
my
but
like
the
Minister
the
use
of
reason
for
interaction
to
exercise
contractors
and
this
caution
is
the
province
has
in
brought into sharp focus the exorbitant fees that
these consultants charge. This is detrimental to
poverty-focused
projects
in
at
least
two
significant ways. It takes a large chunk of the
money
away
stalls
from
black
the
real
empowerment
projects
and
and
transfer
the
it
also
of
skills. Linked to the aforementioned concern is the
inability of people in charge of these projects to
account for themselves. Accounting here to me does
not only involve people. It also involves talking
to the community well ahead of the project, during
the project and after the project.
In one particular project I was sent from pillar to
post
with
no
one
knowing
for
sure
who
was
the
financier of the project. This leaves the door wide
open for unscrupulous contractors who firstly do
11 October 2001
Page 70 of 225
not listen to the community and secondly do the job
so badly that it requires refixing. Ironically, the
refixing
tender
is
often
awarded
to
the
same
contractor who did the half-baked job in the first
place.
By way of illustration, in my village contractors
came to build a storm water drainage system. The
villagers pointed out that the layout of the canals
was faulty and could not work. No one listened and
the result is that this drainage system is filled
with
silt
and
soil
and
is
now
totally
nonfunctional. No one in my village has benefited
in any way from this project.
I believe we should not continually quote figures
of work done and money spent, but should rather be
looking at real development on the ground. [Time
expired.]
The
MINISTER
OF
PUBLIC
WORKS:
Chairperson,
I
am
ready to respond. As some members were debating I
felt they should have asked me to invite MECs to be
present,
because
they
are
all
flogging
me
about
11 October 2001
Page 71 of 225
something which is not my competency. They are also
talking about the budget which is sent to provinces
and
is
allocated
and
in
which
Public
Works
nationally has no say. As each member stood up, I
became dismayed and asked myself why I had been
called
to
this
debate.
In
most
cases
it
was
a
provincial debate. I have to explain to the House
that Public Works nationally only deals with roads
that go to our projects, period.
Local
government
deals
with
roads
falling
under
local authorities. Most of the provincial roads are
looked
after
by
the
provinces,
using
their
own
budgets. Major national roads are dealt with by the
Department
of
Transport.
I
want
to
appeal
to
members of the NCOP to understand this. I will look
at Hansard and send copies to the MECs so that they
can understand what was said here.
The Council invited me to talk about poverty relief
and I have explained at length what it is that we
are doing. In order to deal with poverty relief,
one of the things we do is to go back to projects
that used to work well in some of the homelands
11 October 2001
where
there
was
rehabilitate
what
we
Page 72 of 225
call
that
infrastructure.
We
infrastructure.
community
production
then
Hence
try
we
centres
to
have
which
deal, together with the Department of Agriculture
and sometimes the Department of Water Affairs and
Forestry, with these issues.
I think that in each of the three regions of the
provinces which were formerly said to be the most
poverty stricken, we have at least two of these
community
production
centres.
Provinces
such
as
Mpumalanga were not even part of the equation. The
national Department of Public Works knew, however,
that if there is poverty in the Eastern Cape, there
must be poverty in Mpumalanga.
We
ourselves
decided
to
allocate
some
money
to
deal with this issue. I want to request the select
committee concerned to invite me to their meetings
so that I can explain to them what kind of animal
national Public Works is, because, clearly, they do
not know what kind of animal national Public Works
is.
11 October 2001
Ngithola
Page 73 of 225
ezinye
izibongo
manje.
Ngithola
ezinye
izithakazelo ... [I am now receiving new praises. I
am receiving new clan praises.]
... and they are not those. We do meet with the
provinces and we have our Minmec, where we try, as
national
Public
guidelines
Works,
which
can
to
lay
assist
down
them
in
policy
developing
their competence.
We
come
people
from
got
a
situation
used
to
where,
putting
on
in
some
their
cases,
coats
and
leaving work unfinished. I admit that we still have
to
work
very
hard
to
help
provinces,
even
with
monitoring.
Kgoshi Mokoena had a whole catalogue, which I will
have
to
because
send
it
is
to
the
not
Eastern
the
Cape
national
government,
department's
competence. What we as national department do is
deal with accommodation for national departments.
We build infrastructure. If Correctional Services
or the Department of Justice wants a new building,
or
one
of
the
various
other
departments
needs
11 October 2001
Page 74 of 225
office space, that is what we deal with. It is
called capital works.
Because some departments were not forthcoming with
their requests, we asked the Department of Finance
to devolve the budget, so that if a department does
not spend on its budget, it is no longer reflected
as underspending on the part of Public Works. It is
now reflected on the budget of the department which
did not come up with a plan on how they were going
to spend the money.
Regarding
the
question
spoke,
together
with
called
multipurpose
of
the
the
GCIS
centres,
first
we
like
member
who
have
what
are
the
one
the
President will be opening at Sterkspruit. Here we
look at the exact request made. Some people are far
removed
from
the
villages
and
towns.
People
in
small towns like Mount Fletcher and Matatiele need
Government services.
We have built multipurpose centres where pensions
can be paid out at a point not far from the people
and
where
issues
concerning
the
police,
health,
11 October 2001
welfare
and
Page 75 of 225
similar
things
can
be
dealt
with,
depending on the area and its needs. We have more
than 22 of these centres which have just started,
because we saw the need to bring services to the
people.
We
also
heard
about
all
the
white
elephants
Government has created because of the integrated
strategy. As part of our programme we go back and
ask how we can change these from white elephants
into something viable.
I want to mention an example. As new Minister of
Public Works this one struck me. A project had been
built at Hlabisa for quite a large sum. I went to
check
on
it.
We
found
our
structure,
but
no
services were delivered from it. They were using it
as a workshop and went back to using a structure
which we had not built, but which was near the
road.
We discovered that no proper consultation with the
people
had
taken
place.
Together
with
the
Department of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology
11 October 2001
we
decided
to
Page 76 of 225
use
the
stalls,
which
we
had
envisaged would be used for selling products, as
workshops for people to manufacture things. At the
request of the people, we put up another structure
next
to
will
tell
there.
the
We
road,
hon
and
members
examined
the
anyone
that
from
KwaZulu-Natal
business
situation
is
and
thriving
decided
we
wanted to go back and correct what had been done
badly.
Members have rightly said that we should cut down
on consultants. Members must invite us, not just to
their portfolio meetings, but also to their study
groups, I would even say across party lines, so
that we can inform people first-hand of what sort
of development is going to happen in their areas.
It is important that hon members, as MPs, should
know so that they can co-operate with us.
In my department I always say - and my DG will bear
me out - that I do not understand why, if a request
for a school comes from a community, we must employ
somebody called a social facilitator and pay him 4%
of the value of the project. Why? I want to believe
11 October 2001
Page 77 of 225
that any local authority, any traditional leader,
any
MP,
can
implemented,
ensure
that
they
that
that
can
deal
programme
with
all
is
the
problems around it, because that is what we have
been voted to Parliament for.
I appeal to hon members, instead of being critical,
to come up with solutions the next time I attend
their
meetings
at
portfolio
level.
Dealing
with
poverty and development in this country is a twoway
project,
and
hon
members
should
contribute
their opinions on what they think will change the
situation. I am not being funny, but coming here
with a litany of what is wrong in the provinces
without
making
any
suggestions
on
how
to
solve
these problems is rather problematic.
Public Works has decided at national level to cut
down on consultants. I was shocked when I attended
the launch of a beautiful project in KwaZulu-Natal.
Upon enquiry I learnt that funding for the project
was
R19
million,
but
only
R14
million
had
gone
towards the work, I was told the other R5 million
had gone to consultants.
11 October 2001
Page 78 of 225
We went back to our department and we said we were
not going to have any of that. We cut down on the
national co-ordinating structure, into which we had
been pumping a lot of money. With the help of the
EU
we
got
people
within
the
department
who
are
going to oversee some of the work to make sure that
it happens.
Unfortunately, due to the new municipalities, and
the bringing together of a number of municipalities
to form the bigger structures, a lot of work still
has to be done in creating capacity in those new
structures.
As department we had to go back to the drawing
board hoping that we would be able to boast, as we
did
last
year,
that
we
were
dealing
with
three
budgets and, by the end of 2001, would actually
have spent all that money.
Khange bangxole kunyaka ophelileyo ... [They were
not so loud last year.]
11 October 2001
Page 79 of 225
... because we used some of the money that was
allocated
to
public
works
for
poverty-relief
programmes that we thought were viable.
Members should also inform us first-hand if there
are construction people who are building what we
call winter roads. By winter roads, I mean those
roads which will last just for a while.
Ngiye ngithi ngesintu: eyi, ishefiwe le migwaqo.
[In my language I used to say: Hey, these roads
have been graded.]
This
is
because
they
sort
of
look
clean-shaven.
They are supposed to be gravel roads, but one does
not find a single stone. Then we say that if people
take such short cuts we have no business dealing
with them. We have also said that if there are
companies which really give us shoddy work, we will
not hesitate to blacklist those companies, although
some hon members, as MPs, come back to us and say,
``Please
can
you
give
them
another
chance?''
Niyasixakekisa. [You are causing us trouble.]
11 October 2001
Page 80 of 225
The hon member will criticise us for doing shoddy
work, then he or she will still come back to us and
say
``Please
give
this
company
work.''
Then
one
wonders where the integrity of the hon member is.
What we want to encourage is the rewarding of those
emerging contractors who are doing good work.
Niza kuthi ke Owu! uMaSigcawu unika ubani noobani.
[You are going to say: Ms Sigcawu is biased, she
gives some and does not give others.]
It is because we are short of people to do the
work, and in any situation a reward is always given
to somebody who has proved him or herself.
The last thing I want to say is that we are trying
our best. I will accept criticism where it is fair
and due, but I have a lot of letters to write to
the provinces, that is the Free State, the Eastern
Cape
and
Mpumalanga,
to
say
what
concerns members here. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
it
is
that
11 October 2001
Page 81 of 225
COMPANIES AMENDMENT BILL
(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Chairperson, I
would like to thank you for the generosity in the
time you have given me - ten minutes for such a
short Bill. I will not take up all that time, not
because I do not value the chance of speaking in
the NCOP, but because I think it is a relatively
short amendment.
Members
of
the
House,
this
is
a
very
small
amendment. It would seem to be technical, but in
some ways it is quite an exciting amendment. In
essence,
what
it
is
designed
to
achieve
is
the
facility to lodge documents electronically in the
companies registration office. This is an important
development. It will not replace the paper-based
documentation that is in the companies registration
office, but opens all the possibilities of being
able to interact with this office from all over
South Africa.
11 October 2001
Page 82 of 225
We are near the end of setting up our system, which
will allow just for this. The next phase of our
project
would
placement
of
registration
office
be
to
to
allow
electronic
for
the
companies
intellectual
properties
documents
office
from
begin
a
and
very
wide
range
of
input
points
across the country.
The
with
amendment
this
is
technical
matter
of
in
the
allowing
main,
for
dealing
electronic
documentation to be lodged. It does also deal with
certain small technical matters to make the Bill
consistent
in
itself
and
with
the
current
situation.
I would urge members to support what is a small
amendment, but one that opens the way for the new
electronic age. [Applause.]
Mr J L THERON: Chairperson, owing to the unanimous
support of the Select Committee on Economic Affairs
we
decided
to
make
brief
statements
on
this
amendment. Therefore I am speaking on behalf of the
opposition parties.
11 October 2001
The
Page 83 of 225
opposition
parties
support
Amendment
Bill
practical
acknowledgement
adapting
to
unconditionally.
the
that
information
the
Companies
The
Bill
our
country
revolution
is
and
a
is
the
globalisation of the world economies.
A lot of other legislation will also have to follow
suit to keep up with the enhancement in worldwide
information flow, and we will have to legalise the
new world of e-commerce. The Companies Act of 1973
was
written
electronic
because,
without
processing
at
that
any
of
point
consideration
documentation
in
time,
for
mainly
electronic
documentation and any processing thereof was but a
mere dream of the future.
This Bill needs to amend the Companies Act of 1973
to enable the lodgement of documents and disclosure
of information in respect of companies by means of
the electronic process.
The Bill seeks to introduce provisions enabling the
following: the phasing in of electronic lodgement
of corporate forms; the phasing in of electronic
11 October 2001
payment
of
services
Page 84 of 225
prescribed
rendered;
fees
and
and
other
electronic
fees
for
disclosure
of
corporate information.
It needs to be clearly understood that this new
system
has
been
developed
as
an
additional
functionality and it will in no way replace the
existing paper-based structures and procedures of
lodgement
of
registration
documents
office.
It
at
may,
the
however,
companies
in
time
become the main way of dealing with the companies
registration office.
From the above-mentioned it is evident that this
Bill is clearly needed to enhance the South African
economic
system,
and
therefore
the
opposition
parties support the Companies Amendment Bill, B35
of 2001, unconditionally. [Applause.]
Mr S L E FENYANE: Chairperson, it is the reality of
our times that the modern world is one driven by
technology, and South Africa is part and parcel of
that world.
11 October 2001
Page 85 of 225
In the 1996 Budget Vote the hon President Mr Mbeki
said:
The revolution in modern technology has ensured
that
information
is
delivered
at
the
next
destination with speed that defies imagination.
Challenges brought about by this revolution place
the
responsibility
on
us
of
transforming
and
aligning ourselves to respond to challenges of the
New World Order in which technology is our daily
bread.
Because of the uneven development between urban and
rural areas and between the provinces themselves,
we
need
to
give
priority
to
electronic
and
information technology infrastructure, because that
is where the people need these resources to improve
the
conditions
of
their
lives
and
to
enlighten
themselves with information.
The need for the Government to create the necessary
mechanisms to provide the people with information
becomes imperative because of the evolution of our
11 October 2001
history.
We
Page 86 of 225
therefore
have
to
address
this
challenge if we are to promote economic growth and
development and enable all to gain access to the
best
in
human
civilisation
in
our
country.
The
Companies Amendment Bill of 2001 seeks to do that.
The Companies Act of 1973 was written without any
consideration
for
the
electronic
processing
of
documentation, mainly because at that point in time
electronic
documentation
and
processing
thereof
were but a mere dream of the future, like flying
space cars in our times. The Bill seeks to increase
investment
in
electronic
and
information
technology, without which we would not be able to
bridge the digital divide.
It was only four years ago that the SA Companies
Registration
Office,
in
co-operation
with
Sars,
various departments of state, other regulators and
interested
embarked
electronic
parties
on
the
and
from
the
development
computerised
private
of
a
system
sector,
completely
for
the
incorporation of companies and close corporations
11 October 2001
Page 87 of 225
and the registration of corporate information, in
respect of these entities.
The main purpose of this electronic system is to
enable
the
companies
registration
office
to
decentralise its services as soon as possible to
even the most remote areas. This is possible with a
properly managed electronic central database, and
it can, effectively, be achieved by utilising all
available
outlets
of
government
offices,
post
offices, organisations, private businesses and by
individual
therefore
enable
access
seeks
to
lodgement
information
in
to
the
amend
of
Internet.
the
documents
respect
of
The
Companies
and
Bill
Act
to
disclosure
of
companies
by
means
of
electronic processes.
One
of
the
main
attributes
electronic
system
is
companies
registration
that
of
it
office
introducing
will
to
this
enable
the
take
its
registration and disclosure services to the masses
in
the
whole
of
South
Africa,
areas and the global community.
including
remote
11 October 2001
Currently,
Pretoria
Page 88 of 225
there
is
providing
only
one
these
national
services,
office
but
with
in
a
proper database and electronic processing system,
which would allow for remote electronic lodgement
of
documentation
and
requests
for
information,
these services can be properly decentralised, as
aforesaid.
In this regard, it is the intention to provide the
majority
of
these
services,
not
only
via
the
Internet in order to make them readily available,
but
also
through
various
public
and
other
participating offices throughout the country. It is
without
doubt
technology
that
in
constitutes
the
an
times
engine
we
for
live
in
economic
development. It is my belief, therefore, that this
initiative will have a directly positive impact on
the lives of South Africa's people.
I
would
like
to
thank
the
select
committee
for
accepting the amendment of this Bill.
I would like to quote the hon Aziz Pahad's words in
his address on Africa Day from John Reader's book,
11 October 2001
Africa:
A
Page 89 of 225
Biography
of
the
Continent,
where
he
hope
of
says:
South
Africa
preserves
the
flickering
transforming dreams into reality, affirming the
value of integrity and ideals in an era where
economic
pragmatism
is
the
dominant
theme
of
world affairs.
Let us face the future with confidence and keep on
being pragmatic to better the lives of our people.
I humbly urge the House to support this Bill. It is
central to development and rapid economic growth.
It is, indeed, a technical amending Bill, but its
implications are broad. It prepares us today for
the
future
that
we
have
always
dreamt
of.
It
effectively tells us that we have embedded the past
and
the
future
in
the
present
and
that
it
is
possible to visualise and live the future in the
present. I therefore urge members to support this
Bill. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
11 October 2001
Page 90 of 225
Bill, subject to proposed amendments, agreed to in
accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.
COUNTERFEIT GOODS AMENDMENT BILL
TRADE PRACTICES AMENDMENT BILL
(Consideration of Bills and of Reports thereon)
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Chairperson,
once
again,
the
amendments
that
the
hon
members
have before them, and there will be a subsequent
one to come,
are a linked set of amendments in
these related Acts on trademarks. They are being
amended through Trade Practices Amendment Bill and
the Counterfeit Goods Amendment Bill.
There is an amendment which deals, specifically and
most importantly, with the concept of a well-known
mark.
In
terms
of
the
Trips
agreement,
certain
marks that are very well known do have a status.
The case that we are familiar with in South Africa
would be MacDonalds, as hon members may recall. The
position,
however,
is
that
each
national
11 October 2001
jurisdiction
Page 91 of 225
or
judicial
system
makes
decisions
about what a well-known mark is or is not. We did
not have that definition in the Counterfeit Goods
Act and we proposed to introduce it.
There
are
other
consistency
smaller
amendments
dealing
with
matters in the main and also relate to
copyright, prohibited marks and how they appear or
should not appear.
The final amendment to the Counterfeit Goods Act
deals with the question of searches. It is fairly
obvious that in a matter like this, one needs to
move quite quickly and decisively in order to prove
that counterfeit goods exist. There was some degree
of
lack
of
proposing
forward.
committees
clarity
the
I
in
the
amendments
would
for
like
the
Act
and
that
to
have
thank
improvements
we
the
which
are
thus
been
put
portfolio
they
have
made in these amendments.
The next Act is the Trade Practices Act and the
amendment
that
is
being
something
we
needed
to
made
have
there.
done,
This
but
it
is
is
11 October 2001
Page 92 of 225
interesting that the impetus for doing it quickly
was, in fact, the Cricket World Cup which comes up
in 2003.
All
hon
members
are
probably
familiar
with
this
concept of ambush marketing, that basically one can
get sponsors to a big event who will sponsor the
event and put their own advertising there, and all
of a sudden Minister Alec Erwin flies in with a big
balloon that says ``Vote Alec Erwin'', right over
the
cricket
marketing.
Of
festival.
course,
That
that
is
is
called
ambush
a
really
extreme
example. I do not think that there is really any
need for me to ask hon members to vote for me. But
that is what ambush marketing is. It is quite an
important and crucial issue, and as I say, for a
major event like World Cup Cricket, there was a
need for the sponsors to have certainty about this.
One of the issues in this regard has been that
people feel a bit nervous about whether this would
prevent small and medium enterprises from coming in
and
showing
their
small
logos
or
whatever.
It
certainly would not. Specifically in relation to
11 October 2001
the
Cricket
Page 93 of 225
World
Cup,
it
will
be
one
of
the
biggest joint projects that we will do regarding
any major events between DTI and the sponsors of
these events, which will bring in small and medium
enterprises across a wide range of activities in
preparation for the cup. So what we are dealing
with
here
are
major
sponsorships
in
which
advertisers put their boards up, and someone who
does not sponsor anything uses the prominence of
that event to just come in and try to advertise
their product.
This is what we have dealt with in the main with
these amendments. Once again, I would suggest that
these
are
continually
important
update
technical
and
refine
amendments
South
which
Africa's
intellectual property laws and trademark laws, and
I would urge that we support them. [Applause.]
Mr
T
S
SETONA:
Chairperson
and
hon
Minister,
I
believe that the Minister has indeed covered every
technical aspect of the amendment that I was going
to talk about, and more so. Given the fact that
there was a general consensus at the level of the
11 October 2001
Page 94 of 225
select committee, therefore,
with due respect, I
would like to thank members of the opposition for
their
co-operation
in
the
course
of
the
deliberation on this Bill. [Laughter.] [Applause.]
The
DEPUTY
CHAIRPERSON
OF
THE
NCOP
(Mr
M
L
Mushwana): Order! That was the shortest speech. It
will
definitely
go
into
the
Guinness
Book
of
Records.
Dr
E
A
CONROY:
colleagues,
Chairperson,
counterfeit
Minister
goods
are
Erwin
described
and
as
goods which are the result of counterfeiting, which
is in turn described as the active producing or
manufacturing of goods without the permission of
the
persons
rights
who
existing
own
in
the
intellectual
respect
of
those
property
particular
goods.
The original Counterfeit Goods Act, Act 37 of 1997,
introduced
measures
aimed
at,
in
the
first
instance, fighting against the trade in counterfeit
goods
so
as
to
further
protect
the
legitimate
owners of trademarks, copyrights and certain marks
11 October 2001
under
the
Page 95 of 225
Merchandise
introduced
measures
Marks
aimed
Act.
at
Secondly,
addressing
it
the
unlawful application to goods of the subject matter
of
the
respective
intellectual
property
rights.
Thirdly, it introduced measures aimed at fighting
the
release
of
counterfeit
goods
into
the
commercial market and channels. However, when this
Act
was
were
of
promulgated
in
the
that
opinion
1997,
the
legal
commentators
term
``counterfeit
goods'' was too wide and that it ran the risk of
treating genuine goods as counterfeit or pirated
goods.
The purpose of this Bill is, therefore, to amend
the definition of intellectual property rights so
as
to
extend
these
rights
to
include
rights
in
trademarks which are entitled to protection under
the
Paris
Convention,
whereby
goods
with
marks
which are well known in South Africa will also be
protected under the Act. This will also allow the
seizure and destruction of goods that infringe on
such trademarks.
11 October 2001
Page 96 of 225
Die Wysigingswetsontwerp op Handelspraktyke het ten
doel
om
die
wysig
Wet
ten
op
Handelspraktyke
einde
praktyke
van
1976
bekend
te
as
``hinderlaagbemarking'', of die sogenaamde ``ambush
marketing'', ten opsigte van geborgde geleenthede
te verbied.
Hierdie wanpraktyk, wat tydens die promulgering van
die wet nog onbekend was en dus nie in die wet
opgeneem kon word nie, bestaan uit die opsetlike
optrede deur 'n persoon om 'n misleidende of valse
indruk
te
skep
van
'n
kontraktuele
of
ander
verbintenis met 'n geborgde geleentheid, waar so 'n
verbintenis in der waarheid nie bestaan nie.
Hierdie
twee
wysigingswetsontwerpe,
naamlik
die
eersgenoemde ten opsigte van ``counterfeit goods''
en
die
laasgenoemde
handelspraktyke,
loop
in
ten
der
opsigte
waarheid
hand
van
aan
hand, aangesien dit in die finale instansie om die
beskerming
van
wetsontwerpe
intellektuele
het
nodig
eiendom
geword
om
die
gaan.
Beide
regverdige
bedryf van gesonde handelspraktyke te verseker, en
11 October 2001
Page 97 of 225
hou geen finansiële implikasies vir die staat in
nie.
Ons steun beide die wetsontwerpe. (Translation of
Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[The objective of the Trademarks Amendment Bill is
to amend the Trade Practices Act of 1976 in order
to
prohibit
the
practice
known
as
``ambush
marketing'' in respect of sponsored events.
This malpractice, which was still unknown during
promulgation of the law and therefore could not be
included
in
the
law,
consists
of
the
deliberate
actions by a person to create a false or misleading
impression of a contractual or other relationship
with a sponsored event, where such relationship in
fact does not exist.
These two amending Bills, the first-mentioned in
respect
of
counterfeit
goods,
and
the
latter
in
respect of trade practices in fact go hand in hand,
as in the final analysis they concern intellectual
goods. Both Bills have become necessary to ensure
11 October 2001
Page 98 of 225
the just practice of sound trade practices, and do
not have any financial implications for the state.
We support both these Bills.]
Mr K D S DURR: Chairperson, as the Minister said,
it is not the Bill, really, which is so important,
though important it is, but the continuing trend,
the family of Bills and the direction in which the
Government
is
going
that
is
really
significant
here. I want to congratulate the Minister and the
department
on
these
Bills.
After
years
of
into
the
isolation, it is wonderful to see.
The
Bill
brings
mainstream
of
consequence
Related
of
forcefully
international
our
Aspects
Convention.
us
of
It
having
conventions,
ratified
Intellectual
allows
back
us,
as
a
the
Trade-
Property
Rights
thus,
additional
protection under the Paris Convention. I have to
say
that
after
a
blip
in
which,
I
think,
some
unfortunate perceptions were created by the debate
over the past few years on generic medicines, I
believe
the
Bill
will
again
confirm
that
South
11 October 2001
Africa
is
and
Page 99 of 225
remains
squarely
committed
in
a
globalising world to the concept of the protection
of intellectual property rights. Thus we support
this Bill very strongly.
Of course, the problem remains that China is not
yet a member of the World Trade Organisation, which
creates problems for everybody, including us. But
one hopes that China's formal admission to the WTO,
which now seems more than likely, will pave the way
for her accession to all of these conventions that
we are talking about.
With regard to the Trade Practices Amendment Bill,
in seeking to prohibit certain practices such as
``ambush
marketing''
in
respect
of
sponsored
events, the Government is simply responding to the
growing
sophistication
leisure/sport
bringing
us
and
in
art
line
of
our
international
with
sponsored
industry,
international
best
practice. By creating a favourable environment for
sponsors
to
sponsor
sporting
events
and
other
events, including the arts, we make a contribution
to
stimulating
those
events
themselves,
making
11 October 2001
Page 100 of 225
sponsorships possible and attractive. Thus, we are
also
able
thereby
to
bring
our
populations
that
perhaps have not enjoyed many of these sports and
events
back
into
themselves.
the
We
mainstream
support
of
this
those
events
measure.
[Time
expired.] [Applause.]
Ms
M
P
THEMBA:
Chairperson,
hon
Minister,
hon
members, today we are addressing two crucial Bills,
namely
the
Trade
conjunction
Bill.
The
with
Practices
the
Amendment
Counterfeit
amendments
of
these
Bill
in
Goods
Amendment
Bills
are
both
necessary and important as they will strengthen the
protection of intellectual property rights and also
benefit
the
broader
South
African
public
and
businesses.
Gone
are
the
days
when
we
were
a
pariah
state
isolated by the whole world owing to our notorious
policies
of
the
interdependent
global
past.
world,
village.
Today
which
Thanks
to
we
is
the
are
often
part
of
called
struggles
people, we are no longer living on an island.
of
an
the
our
11 October 2001
Page 101 of 225
I am quite sure that all of us here in our offices
use computers that are made somewhere else. All of
us take our children out for a meal to McDonald's,
and I know that all of us have bought Nike takkies.
These
are
global
brands
and
they
are
available
right here in our country. Some of them are made
locally.
Today
South
Africans
own
franchises
of
global
brands right here in our own country. Some of these
belong to what are called well-known trademarks.
These play an important role in our economy, in
particular,
in
job
creation.
For
instance,
Nike
shops are found all over the country.
We are part of major games and events, for example
the Olympic Games, world cups, and of a bodies such
as Fifa, etc. Not so long ago we hosted the Rugby
World Cup. Not only was it a success, but we also
claimed the cup itself. We also hope to host more
games, claim more cups and attract investments to
boost our economy. The global sponsorship market is
continuing to expand rapidly and rights fees are
continuing to escalate. Hosting these games in our
11 October 2001
Page 102 of 225
country brings and attracts investments. Those also
create jobs.
The above-mentioned opportunities are examples of
some of the things which we had no access to in the
past, owing to our notorious policies. As a result,
the
previous
Acts
did
not
give
clear-cut
legislation to protect certain rights as they were
alien and not so relevant to us. In particular,
there
are
the
well-known
trademarks,
and
the
combating of what is called ``ambush marketing,''
as the Minister has said. These areas, therefore,
require proper and specific legislation.
The
amendments
important
typical
but
of
are
examples
also
are
unauthorised
or
unauthorised
sales
stunts,
these
Bills
are
necessary.
unauthorised
unofficial
promotion
unauthorised
not
Some
only
of
the
merchandise,
publications,
activity
broadcasts,
or
public
virtual
advertising, web advertising, unofficial corporate
hospitality, etc. The list is endless. They may or
may
not
involve
any
clear
and
direct
breach
of
proprietary rights in an event, such as trademark
11 October 2001
Page 103 of 225
infringement. Some of the most common consequences
are
the
loss
of
revenue
to
sports
bodies,
the
undermining of sponsor investment and the erosion
of exclusive rights.
The question therefore is: How do we deal with this
problem? The answer is simple: through legislation.
This is exactly what we are doing today. It is even
conceivable that the chances of succeeding in bids
to host international events could be prejudiced by
the failure of a nation and its sporting bodies to
deal
both
practically
and
legally
with
ambush
marketing. As I have stated before, we still have
high ambitions - or should I say, convictions - of
hosting more games and international events in our
country.
In our committee we are also united. We have all
agreed
to
the
amendments
of
these
two
Bills.
Democracy is within the committee. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Chairperson,
members of the House, I must say one thing that I
find
very
important
in
these
debates
is
that
11 October 2001
members
do
Page 104 of 225
deal
with
the
technicalities
of
the
laws. I think this is very important. We are going
to find that in the realm of intellectual property
that
more
and
more
developments
will
be
taking
place in the coming years. Certainly in the WTO,
some very complex and technical negotiations will
be occurring on these matters. I think the fact
that our committee members are familiar with the
technicalities is really to be welcomed. I thank
them.
I would like to make one or two very brief points.
I would like to stress that in South Africa we are
very committed to the protection of intellectual
property within the framework that it is accepted
currently in the world dispensation. I think one of
the reasons for this is something that is often
forgotten and that we lose sight of, and that is
that, generally speaking, in the developing world,
we have fallen far behind in protecting our own
intellectual
property.
So
we
should
see
this
as
very much something that we can take advantage of
in
protecting
economies
intellectual
unfold,
as
we
property
begin
to
as
our
bring
in
11 October 2001
Page 105 of 225
traditional knowledge, as we begin to expand our
scientific
endeavours
in
our
own
terrain
and
domains.
Let me say, too, that the hon Kent Durr raised the
issue of China. This is one of the reasons why we
in South Africa have been very strongly supportive
of bringing China into the WTO. I think one cannot
have major economies, China being far and away the
largest, and also very big economies like Iran and
others who are not in the WTO. I think we need a
common trade system across the world, and we would
support that very strongly.
I think many people may wonder -I received a note,
to the effect that - what do we do with counterfeit
goods. This quite a complex and difficult issue.
Obviously if one takes them and just sells them
again, one defeats the original purpose of seizing
them, of taking them out of the market. But we have
begun some interesting programmes and projects on
counterfeit goods, namely to break up these goods
and transform them into other products. Then they
can be utilised to generate smaller businesses in
11 October 2001
products
which
Page 106 of 225
do
not
compete
with
the
original
intention.
In the cases of products such as clothing, we do,
from time to time - recently we did this - make
these products available for emergency relief. But
we do not let them into the market. In a general
sense, we try and use them for crisis emergency
relief. But there is a difficulty.
I
would
urge
members
to
encourage
people,
everybody, including hawkers and flea markets, to
obey
the
law.
Most
of
us
walk
through
a
flea
market, look at a product and say: I bet that is
not a real Nike cap. It does not really help us to
just walk past and ignore it. We should be telling
hawkers and traders in flea markets that it is not
in their interests to violate these laws, because,
over time, what it means is that no one wants to
come in and invest in our economy.
The
hon
beginning
member
to
mentioned
manufacture
Nike.
products
Now,
for
we
are
Nike
that
will be sold all over the world, and they are an
11 October 2001
Page 107 of 225
important part of our export trade. They are not
going
to
invest
and
produce
here
if
our
own
intellectual laws in the market are so bad, and no
one is going to come here. So I think we must take
a
mature,
far-sighted
view
that
the
better
our
regulatory environment, the more investment we will
attract and the more decent jobs we will be able to
provide to the people. Trying to take a short cut
by breaking the law and getting into a flea market
might sound good in the short term, but basically
it
keeps
support
us
underdeveloped.
that
hon
So
members
we
have
welcome
given
the
these
amendments, and I thank them for the work they have
done on this matter. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Counterfeit
Goods
Amendment
Bill
agreed
to
in
accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.
Trade
Practices
Amendment
Bill
agreed
to
accordance with Section 75 of the Constitution.
CORRECTIONAL SERVICES AMENDMENT BILL
in
11 October 2001
Page 108 of 225
(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson,
hon
members,
one
thing
I
have
realised
about
visiting this House a little bit late is that one
misses
media
attention.
[Laughter.]
But
what
is
advantageous, at the same time, is that one will
find people who are ready to go, who cannot fight
anymore, who do not want to be detained but just
want to go. So I will make it simple. [Laughter.]
I
wish
to
Amendment
honourable
present
Bill,
2001,
House.
The
the
for
Correctional
Services
consideration
by
this
Services
Act,
Correctional
Act 111 of 1998, that is the principal Act, marked
the beginning of the transformation process towards
prison reform in South Africa. It was assented to
by the President on 27 November 1998.
The drafting of a new Act, with the intention to
repeal the Correctional Services Act of 1959, was
necessitated by the democratic revolution which has
been
taking
decade.
place
in
our
country
in
the
past
11 October 2001
Page 109 of 225
In order to grasp the fundamentals that formed the
basis for the drafting of the principal Act, it is
important to understand the context, which defines
the
history
system.
of
The
the
history
South
of
African
the
South
correctional
African
prison
system has been described as a history of a system
that
formed
part
of
the
state
apparatus
of
a
minority government then, which applied explicitly
racial
criteria.
The
main
purpose
then
was
to
``lock them up and throw away the key''. Obviously,
this
was
beings.
not
It
a
is
civilised
against
way
this
of
treating
background
human
that
we
identified the need to change the policy.
In creating a completely new legal framework, the
principal
Act
had
to
be
underpinned
by
the
provisions of the Constitution of the Republic of
South Africa Act of 1996. The principal Act also
incorporated
the
requirements
of
the
United
Nations' international conventions on the treatment
of offenders.
It is often said that a nation is judged by the way
it treats its own prisoners. I think I had that
11 October 2001
Page 110 of 225
experience when I was in this House, when I was
quizzed about terminally ill prisoners. I am still
waiting for the questions.
The
primary
therefore
objective
to
create
of
a
the
new
principal
legal
Act
framework
was
in
conformity with the principles which underpin an
open and democratic society. It is, therefore, only
the beginning.
The
actual
transformation
process
is
currently
under way, which will culminate in the development
of
a
White
Paper
on
correctional
services.
The
White Paper process will assist the department to
generate
interest
stakeholders
of
and
the
understanding
challenges
amongst
facing
the
correctional system in playing an effective role in
crime prevention within the overall context of an
integrated criminal justice system.
It has therefore become necessary to bring forward
certain amendments to the principal Act to ensure
that the transformation process remains on track
and continues to deliver the desired outcomes.
11 October 2001
Page 111 of 225
In the process of drafting subordinate legislation
and
implementing
certain
aspects
of
the
Act,
it
became apparent, based on practical considerations,
that certain amendments would be necessary in order
to fully implement the principal Act and to be more
compliant with the provisions of the Constitution
and the international conventions to which we are
signatories as a country.
Clause
9
of
department
the
to
Bill
provide,
places
as
a
far
duty
as
on
the
practicable,
measures to accommodate prisoners with disabilities
and
to
create
an
environment
in
place
that
is
gender-
sensitive.
Clause
12
puts
certain
procedural
and
substantive safeguards in disciplinary proceedings
involving prisoners, such as the proper recording
of the proceedings at an informal hearing before
the
head
of
representation
prison
and
at
formal
a
disciplinary official.
the
right
hearing
to
legal
before
a
11 October 2001
Page 112 of 225
Clauses 17, 18 and 19 provide for the circumstances
under which force may be used by a correctional
official, including the procedures to be followed
for
the
use
of
firearms
and
other
nonlethal
incapacitating devices. For instance, this will now
be pertinent in the Act and not relegated to the
regulations as suggested by the initial text of the
principal Act. This also contributes to efficient
checks
and
physical
balances
power
and
to
prevent
to
ensure
the
the
abuse
of
safety
of
prisoners.
Clause 20 entrenches the right of child offenders
to
education
utilisation
and
of
training,
child
and
offenders
for
prohibits
labour
the
other
than work aimed at developing their skills.
The
lack
of
community
involvement
in
the
parole
system has been a matter of grave concern for many
of
us.
In
terms
of
the
principal
Act,
the
composition of the Parole Board will now include
two permanent members from the community, and fulltime
ex-officio
Correctional
members
Services,
from
the
the
Department
Department
of
of
Justice
11 October 2001
Page 113 of 225
and Constitutional Development and the SA Police
Services. The board will be chaired by a member of
the community. The new parole system also provides
for representations to be made to the Parole Board,
either
by
the
victim
in
person
or
by
his
representative.
The inclusion of clause 30 is intended to assist
the department and the Government in managing the
scourge
this
of
overcrowding
provision
which
in
our
prisons.
deals
with
Part
of
unsentenced
prisoners was not included in the principal Act.
Thus we had long consultations with the Department
of Justice and Constitutional Development, select
committees and portfolio committees, because there
was a concern that there might be a breach of the
separation of powers. But I was informed that an
agreement had been reached, and that is why we are
bringing this amendment to this House.
To
the
address
challenges
department
interdepartmental
is
presented
involved
projects
by
in
overcrowding,
a
developed
number
within
crime prevention, justice and safety cluster.
of
the
11 October 2001
Page 114 of 225
These include the following. There is an awaiting
trial-prisoner project, which is meant to reduce
the detention cycle of awaiting-trial prisoners in
an integrated manner. This system has been piloted
at seven sites. The official launch of the national
rollout
took
further
26
place
sites
on
17
were
August
2001,
identified,
where
and
it
a
is
envisaged that it will be implemented before July
2002.
The department is further involved in the Saturday
courts project which was introduced in 99 courts
countrywide. During February 2001, the number of
awaiting-trial
prisoners
in
custody
at
these
prisons served by those specific courts declined by
12%, that is from 4 355 to about 36 300.
We
intend
also
to
dramatically
increase
the
accommodation capacity of the prison system by as
much
as
an
additional
30
000
beds
during
the
forthcoming MTEF. This will be achieved by building
low-cost
new-generation
prisons
for
medium-
and
low-risk prisoner categories, who are the majority
of the country's prison population at the moment.
11 October 2001
These
Page 115 of 225
facilities
will
be
situated
strategically
around the country in the areas most affected by
overcrowding.
This
building
programme
will
be
supported by the development of construction norms
and
standards
based
on
what
is
called
new-
generation design principles to achieve low life
cycle facility costs. These construction norms and
standards will be translated into facility design
prototypes
based
on
economical
and
practical
designs and solutions.
Lastly, the department wishes to further increase
its
existing
accommodation
capacity,
which
means
that approximately 8 000 beds will be added to the
system,
prisons.
with
At
the
this
commissioning
stage,
33
of
prisons
several
have
new
been
identified for repair and maintenance.
The Department of Correctional Services has decided
to put rehabilitation and restorative justice at
the
centre
of
its
operations.
Concentration
on
rehabilitation is meant to strike a balance between
rehabilitation
and
safe
custody.
This
has
subsequently brought the need for the reskilling of
11 October 2001
officials
in
Page 116 of 225
rehabilitation
techniques,
thereby
enhancing the goal of rehabilitation.
For rehabilitation to succeed, prisoners must be
treated as individuals, with each prisoner having
his
or
her
own
problem.
individualised
programmes
The
development
needs-based
entails
of
the
rehabilitation
specialised
treatment
and
development programmes for prisoners in partnership
with
the
communities
and
the
offender.
In
other
words, we are saying that unless we partner with
the
community,
we
will
not
succeed
in
our
programmes of rehabilitation.
This is done by enhancing the personal and social
functioning
of
all
offenders
in
line
with
their
individual needs, with a view to preparing them for
reintegration as productive, well-adapted and lawabiding
citizens.
I
am
looking
at
the
hon
Kent
Durr, who seems to be saying: ``That is a tall
order, Minister!''
The
active
engagement
rehabilitation
process
of
of
the
the
community
prisoner
in
as
the
a
11 October 2001
collective
Page 117 of 225
responsibility
strengthens
our
partnership in the treatment of the prisoner. We
shall continue to endeavour to promote and enhance
community
involvement
structured
working
in
order
relationship,
to
and
ensure
to
a
regulate
involvement between role-players.
The exercise of promoting restorative justice is
meant to create a platform for dialogue between the
offender,
the
victim
facilitate
the
healing
and
the
process.
community
We
believe
to
that
this process will heal more that it will hurt.
In conclusion, in relation to the Census 2001, the
Department
of
Correctional
Services
is
assisting
Statistics South Africa in the process of managing
the census in prisons. A working relationship with
Statistics
South
Africa
was
established
at
both
provincial and national levels, where we confirmed
our
commitment
Services
to
officials
the
have
process.
been
Correctional
assisting
with
completion of questionnaires within prisons
the
on a
voluntary basis. Some provincial commissioners have
reported that the process is running smoothly at
11 October 2001
this
stage
and
Page 118 of 225
it
is
also
envisaged
that
the
process will be completed by the week ending on 19
October 2001, which is well ahead of the deadline
set by Statistics South Africa.
It is now my sincere and fervent hope that all
members will see their way clear to accepting the
amending Bill which I have tabled before this House
this afternoon. God bless. [Applause.]
Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson and hon members, on
27 August 2001, the Select Committee on Security
and Constitutional Affairs visited some prisons in
various provinces. Some shocking discoveries were
made during those visits.
I
would
like
to
thank
my
colleagues
in
the
committee for taking all the time to visit these
prisons. This is precisely what is expected of us
as the NCOP members - to play our oversight role
and monitoring. To them I say, well done.
It is clear that we are following a concept which
says, ``Every day is an election day. The devil
11 October 2001
Page 119 of 225
always votes against you but, God votes for you.
But, more importantly, you as a group, you cast the
deciding vote''.
Those
visits
carefully
enabled
scrutinise
sections
of
the
Services
Act
has
the
this
select
Bill.
principal
met
with
committee
It
Act.
The
critical
amends
a
to
few
Correctional
acclaim
from
many experts of correctional services as one of the
best
in
this
country
and
from
ordinary
South
Africans as a fundamental break with our oppressive
past.
The Act accurately reflects the values of respect
for
human
dignity
and
other
fundamental
human
rights in our Constitution. In many respects the
Act accurately reflects these values. Yet it is is
not enough for it to merely reflect them. It must
also be able to provide for mechanisms which can
practically implement these values.
It
has
since
shortcomings
amending
become
in
Bill.
clear
the
Some
that
current
of
the
there
Act,
are
hence
amendments
are
some
this
of
a
11 October 2001
technical
Page 120 of 225
nature,
but
there
are
some
that
will
bring about fundamental changes to the principal
Act.
If
the
Bill
is
passed,
it
will
bring
back
the
dignity of children who find themselves in prison
with their mothers. It is also going to deal with
the question of overcrowding. It also deals with
corrupt officials within the department. Unlike in
the past, when one could easily equate a prison
with
hell,
examples,
the
for
prisoners.
The
prisoners
to
Bill
amenities
Bill
makes
it
to
made
also
access
be
makes
possible,
it
reading
available
possible
materials
for
to
for
and
recreational facilities.
Prisoners in most prisons are accommodated in the
same cells, regardless of the crimes each prisoner
has committed. That will be a thing of the past.
The
Bill
suspend
allows
or
the
separate
commissioner
the
prisoners
to
restrict,
accordingly.
Conditions in our prisons have not been friendly to
prisoners with disabilities. In this Bill that has
been taken care of.
11 October 2001
Page 121 of 225
The Bill also makes it possible for prisoners, when
attending disciplinary hearings, to be represented
by a legal representative. Firearms or ammunition
cannot
be
used
against
prisoners
at
random.
The
Bill regulates how and when it can be used. For
example, a Correctional Services official can only
use firearms as a last resort when his or her life
is in danger or threatened, or even when a prisoner
tries to escape.
During
its
visits
to
prisons,
the
committee
was
made aware that in one prison in the Western Cape
there was a 14-year old boy who had been caught
stealing grapes on Mr Potgieter's farm. The value
of the grapes was only R15. He was still awaiting
trial. He could not raise the R200 bail. He had
been in that prison for three months.
In one prison in Gauteng, there was a 12-year-old
boy who had been arrested for stealing a packet of
bananas to the value of R5 from a Mr Van Rensburg's
fruit
market.
He
was
still
awaiting
trial.
Unfortunately he could not raise the R200 bail. He
had been in that prison for four months.
11 October 2001
What
about
Page 122 of 225
the
13-year-old
boy
in
one
of
the
prisons in Giyani in the Northern Province who had
been
caught
stealing
three
avocados
from
Mr
De
Jager's farm? The value of the three avocados was
R6. He also could not raise the R300 bail. As I am
speaking here, the boy is still in prison. He has
been
there
Gauteng
for
and
seven
the
months.
Western
Cape
The
two
boys
in
are
unfortunately
accommodated in the same cells as prisoners charged
with
murder,
car
hijacking,
robbery
and
how
the
housebreaking.
Now
let
us
for
a
department
is
considering
the
Those
know
who
while
spending
kinds
imagine
on
of
better
these
crimes
are
much
young
they
saying
boys,
committed.
that
the
department spends not less than R90 per person per
day.
Having
considered
committee
under
all
the
these
capable
facts,
the
leadership
select
of
my
predecessor, the hon J L Mahlangu, postponed the
passage of this Bill to enable stakeholders and the
11 October 2001
Page 123 of 225
department to make some input as to how to correct
these anomalies.
The
select
committee
again,
under
the
vibrant
leadership of the hon Tsietsi Setona, who was the
acting chair by then, also deferred the passage of
this Bill to allow the Departments of Correctional
Services
and
Development
to
of
Justice
sort
and
Constitutional
out
their
differences
the
committee,
and
advise us accordingly.
For
a
third
wonderful,
time
marvellous,
cool
and
under
the
calculated
leadership of yours truly ... [Laughter.] ... in
addition to the two departments, asked the State
Law Adviser to give his legal opinion. I am sure
members are aware that I am now dealing with the
famous clause 30 of the Bill, which proposes to
amend section 81 of the principal Act. The gist of
this
clause
is
that
unsentenced
prisoners
with
minor offences should be released. But before they
are released, certain things have to happen.
11 October 2001
When
the
Page 124 of 225
committee
met
on
2
October,
the
two
departments, together with the State Law Adviser,
informed
us
that
they
now
agreed
with
the
formulation brought by the State Law Adviser. They
advised the committee to accept that formulation.
If
one
looks
at
all
the
steps
taken
by
the
committee, one will realise that we wanted to get
an
amicable
this
solution
mistake
or
which
the
would
differences
try
to
between
rectify
the
two
departments. Our concern as a committee was to get
a mechanism that would address the crisis in our
prisons. Had the committee been advised that this
crisis
could
best
be
handled
by
the
Department
Agriculture or the Department of Water Affairs and
Forestry, we would have accepted that. As long as
it
was
going
to
be
done
lawfully
and
constitutionally, it did not matter much who was
going
to
rectify
it
or
come
up
with
that
legislation.
I would like to thank the Chief Whip for always
being there to assist the committee, whenever there
seemed
to
be
some
confusion.
His
willingness
to
11 October 2001
Page 125 of 225
assist us will not go unnoticed. It is with pride
and
joy
that
I
humbly
inform
the
House
that
I
support the Bill.
Mr P A MATTHEE: Chairperson, as appears from the
opinions of the State Law Advisers, the Department
of Justice and Constitutional Development and the
National Director of Public Prosecutions on the one
hand, and those of the Department of Correctional
Services
and
the
Inspecting
Judge
on
the
other
hand, there are differing viewpoints in respect of
clause 30 of the Bill under discussion. This clause
seeks
to
amend
section
81
of
the
Correctional
Services Act, Act No 111 of 1998.
In
terms
of
the
proposed
new
subsection
(4)
of
section 81, the Minister of Correctional Services
may, in the case of unsentenced prisoners, release
any
such
prisoner
or
group
of
such
prisoners
subject to such conditions as may be determined by
the Minister with the concurrence of the Minister
of Justice.
11 October 2001
The
view
of
Page 126 of 225
the
Department
of
Justice
and
Constitutional Development is that clause 30 of the
Bill is in conflict with the doctrine of separation
of powers contemplated in the Constitution. It also
referred
the
committee
comments
by
the
in
its
National
opinion
Director
to
of
the
Public
Prosecutions. In those comments he expressed strong
reservations regarding the effect of this clause
should
it
become
law.
He
mentioned
that,
for
instance, the following unsentenced prisoners might
be released: Prisoners who have been denied bail by
the court or in respect of whom bail is still under
consideration; prisoners who have committed serious
crimes but who have been granted bail under strict
conditions
whose
imposed
cases
have
by
been
the
court;
dealt
with
and
prisoners
partly
but
in
respect of whom bail has been refused.
He also referred to practical problems which may be
created by the clause; for instance the provision
does
not
prisoner
provide
fails
to
for
the
appear
case
in
when
court.
a
released
Conflicting
conditions might be imposed by the Minister and the
court, which can create uncertainty. Prisoners not
11 October 2001
released
Page 127 of 225
might
wish
to
appeal
against
the
Minister's decision, and that is not provided for.
He also objected to the provision on the ground
that
the
releasing
criminal
unsentenced
justice
prisoners
system
into
might
bring
disrepute.
The
denial and granting of bail and the setting of bail
conditions
are
judicial
judicial
officer.
decisions
Presiding
reached
officers
by
a
and
prosecutors will experience the proposed provision
negatively and this may lead to a negative attitude
towards that.
Apart
from
practical
problems
foreseen
by
the
National Director of Public Prosecutions, his main
of objection, as well as that of the Department of
Justice and Constitutional Development, hinges on
the submission that clause 30 is in conflict with
the doctrine of the separation of powers. The Chief
State Law Advisers conclude that under the current
circumstances
extensively
with
and
the
this
is
current
after
they
problems,
deal
also
mentioning the figures of the overpopulation in the
provinces - they are not convinced that clause 30
11 October 2001
Page 128 of 225
violates the doctrine of the separation of powers,
and that even if it were to violate the doctrine,
they are of the view that addressing the plight of
prisoners, rather than doctrinal reliance on the
strict
application
of
the
separation
of
powers,
should be given preference. They, however, propose
a
reworded
problems
clause
foreseen
30
by
to
the
address
the
National
practical
Director
of
Public Prosecutions and also state that as far as
clause
30
intrusion
might
upon
be
the
perceived
powers
of
as
the
authorising
judiciary,
the
reworded clause also addresses the issue.
I am pleased to say that the committee unanimously
supported
this
reworded
clause
and
it
is,
therefore, proposed that the current clause 30 be
omitted
which
and
substituted
provides
that
by
the
certain
reworded
prisoners
clause,
-
for
instance, where the court has refused to grant bail
- be excluded from this, and also prisoners who are
being detained in respect of any offences related
to
those
mentioned
in
Schedule
2
of
the
Correctional Services Act. As members know, this
schedule
refers
to
crimes
like
murder,
rape
and
11 October 2001
Page 129 of 225
robbery,
prisoners
being
domestic
violence
as
detained
defined
in
in
respect
the
of
Domestic
Violence Act and, of course, additional offences as
the
Minister
reworded
may
clause
prescribe
also
by
regulation.
addresses
the
This
practical
problems referred to in the Act.
The
overcrowding
stated
by
the
annual
report
of
prisons
Minister
which
we
in
-
and
his
this
foreword
received
just
is
to
also
the
yesterday,
remains the biggest challenge for this department,
and
it
undermines
all
the
attempts
of
the
department to create circumstances and conditions
for
the
humane
treatment
and
rehabilitation
of
prisoners. It also affects the morale of personnel
very negatively.
The
problem,
however,
is
that
this
is
not
the
making of this department. This department receives
prisoners
from
Constitutional
prisoners
from
the
Department
Development
the
and
of
the
Department
of
Justice
and
awaiting-trial
Safety
and
Security. We must realise that every time a court
hour
is
lost
unnecessarily,
and
a
case
is
11 October 2001
unnecessarily
properly
Page 130 of 225
postponed
trained
and
because
of
experienced
the
lack
of
investigating
officers or prosecutors, or the shortage thereof,
that brings about the problems that this department
faces.
I think the time has come for us, especially in our
committee, because we are in a position to look at
all
these
Services
departments,
and
Safety
and
such
as
Security,
Correctional
as
well
as
Justice, to really sit down with them and get to
the bottom of this, so that we can address this for
the long term, because the situation as it is right
now, unfortunately, and I think the Minister will
agree
with
me,
is
intolerable
and
unacceptable.
[Time expired.] [Applause.]
Prince
B
Z
ZULU:
Chairperson,
hon
Minister,
hon
members, a lot has been said about the challenges
we are facing in terms of our correctional services
system.
The
focus
has
primarily
been,
and
quite
rightly so, on overcrowding, its consequences and
possible solutions to alleviate it. I want to shift
the focus to something that has not enjoyed the
11 October 2001
Page 131 of 225
same level of attention in this debate, but which
is
also
a
very
important
correctional
challenge
services
facing
system,
our
namely
rehabilitation.
Although
my
contribution
rehabilitation,
I
must
will
state
that
focus
on
rehabilitation
and overcrowding cannot really be seen in isolation
from each other. The lack of rehabilitation can be
linked
directly
to
prison
overcrowding,
because
many of the prisoners who are contributing to it
are prisoners with previous convictions. Although I
do not have exact figures, it is a known fact that
the rate at which prisoners return to prison is
unacceptably
high.
This
high
rate
of
recidivism
means that there is a constant flow of people into
our prisons which causes the overcrowding we are
currently faced with.
Rehabilitation
programmes
have
the
potential
to
reduce the rate at which released prisoners return
to prison and, if effectively implemented, may help
to
reduce
prison
overcrowding.
Rehabilitation
is
defined as ``a process whereby a person's life is
11 October 2001
restored
to
Page 132 of 225
normality
through
training''.
The
Correctional Services Act enjoins the department to
provide
prisoners
with
access
to
programmes
and
activities which will meet their educational and
training needs and assist in their rehabilitation.
In
addition,
social
and
support
the
department
psychological
the
prisoners
must
services
to
promote
also
in
provide
order
their
to
social
functioning and mental health.
At
the
moment,
the
department
has
a
number
of
programmes and services available to all sentenced
prisoners.
These
include
psychological
services,
social work services, religious care, education and
training
and
other
generic
programmes.
The
psychological and social work services are aimed at
both
the
prisoners.
individual
The
groups
education
and
and
families
training
of
programme
involves Abet, correspondence studies, occupational
skills training, vocational training and computerbased
training.
The
generic
programmes
focus
on
life skills training, HIV/Aids, drugs and substance
abuse and sexual behaviour.
11 October 2001
A
number
Page 133 of 225
of
services
are
also
available
for
training awaiting-trial prisoners such as religious
care and administrative support regarding distance
education. With the exception of social work and
religious
services,
prisons,
other
education and
which
are
services
available
such
as
at
all
psychology,
training services are available at
certain prisons only.
While
one
can
availability
understand
of
service
that
are
the
quality
determined
by
and
the
availability of resources and the involvement of
NGOs
and
infrastructure,
every
effort
should
be
made to extend these services to as many prisons
and
prisoners
available
in
as
possible.
all
prisons,
Apart
the
from
making
it
effectiveness
of
these programmes must also be assessed, because it
is of little use to have rehabilitation programmes
that are not effective at all. [Applause.]
Mr
L
G
LEVER:
Chairperson,
hon
Minister,
hon
members, the Correctional Services Amendment Bill
deals with a number of technical issues relating to
definitions in the Act, that is the principal Act,
11 October 2001
Page 134 of 225
and to procedures in the Department of Correctional
Services.
Most
contentious
or
of
these
amendments
controversial
and
are
not
consequently,
I
will not deal with them. However, section 30 of the
Bill does need to be debated.
This
section
Correctional
provides
Services
that
in
the
Minister
consultation
with
of
the
Minister of Justice can release certain categories
of
awaiting-trial
prisons
are
of
prisoners
such
a
where
nature
conditions
that
they
in
demand
corrective measures.
At
the
outset,
this
needs
to
be
placed
in
its
proper perspective. There is a crisis in respect of
the overpopulation in the prisons of the country.
This is especially critical in respect of awaitingtrial prisoners. The extent of the crisis varies
from
prison
to
prison.
In
some
prisons
overpopulation is slightly more than 100%, and at
other prisons it is as critical as 300%.
The
committee
provinces
to
visited
get
prisons
first-hand
in
different
information
on
the
11 October 2001
Page 135 of 225
crisis. We saw clear evidence of the crisis in the
prisons that we visited. We received reports from
medical practitioners that the overcrowding carried
with
it
reported
certain
health
in
media
the
risks.
that
A
view
was
even
there
were
potential
health risks to communities outside the prisons.
The situation is such that I do not think anyone
will
deny
that
there
is
a
crisis.
We
have
to
remember that we are only talking about awaitingtrial
prisoners.
substantial
prisoners
We
must
portion
of
will
also
remember
these
ultimately
be
that
a
awaiting-trial
acquitted
after
a
lengthy period in prison while their trials were
being completed.
Many
of
these
awaiting-trial
prisoners
had,
in
fact, been granted bail in amounts of less than R1
000, but the reality was that they simply could not
afford
to
competent
pay
court
such
has
bail.
In
already
these
found
cases,
that
a
such
awaiting-trial prisoners do not constitute a threat
to
society.
awaiting
A
court
has
trial-prisoners
also
do
found
not
that
constitute
such
an
11 October 2001
inordinate
Page 136 of 225
flight
risk,
and
that
they
will
consequently stand their trial.
Yet
these
months
bail.
people
because
Hon
are
they
members
imprisoned
cannot
must
often
afford
further
to
for
pay
remember
many
their
that
it
costs the state between R80 and R90 per day to
maintain
a
single
prisoner.
The
arithmetic
is
obvious. The state is simply on a losing wicket on
this one for very little benefit in most instances.
The problem is complicated by the crime situation
under which all communities suffer. For this and
other reasons certain safeguards were incorporated
into
the
proposed
amendment.
These
safeguards
include that no person who has been refused bail by
a competent court will be released in terms of the
section under discussion. No person who is alleged
to
have
committed
an
offence
involving
violence
should be released in terms of the section.
The
committee
Department
amendment
of
has
also
made
Correctional
should
only
be
it
clear
Services
seen
as
a
to
that
the
this
short-term
11 October 2001
safety
valve,
Page 137 of 225
and
that
we
are
expecting
the
department to develop an integrated strategy as a
long-term solution to the crisis. For many months,
in fact, from the beginning of the year, we have
been pressing the department to implement again the
automated fingerprinting system, the so-called Afis
system.
We
also
pressed
the
Department
of
Safety
and
Security, as well as Justice to implement the Afis
system,
together
with
an
integrated
docket
management system.
We believe that these systems will streamline the
management
provide
a
and
administration
long-term
solution
of
to
justice
the
crisis
and
of
overcrowding for awaiting-trial prisoners. We have
seen certain steps, and the Minister indicated in
his speech that there is progress in this regard.
We wish the Minister every success in this process
and we want to see it speedily implemented beyond
simply the piloting test phase. [Applause.]
11 October 2001
Mrs
C
NKUNA:
Page 138 of 225
Chairperson,
I
am
just
a
bit
disappointed because a lot of what I have prepared
here
has
already
been
mentioned.
Nonetheless,
I
will get to the nitty-gritty.
Muchaviseki
mutshami
wa
Vululamisi,
nkulukumba
xitulu,
tatana
Holobye
Skhosana,
wa
ta
vatirhi-
kulorhi lava humaka lomuya eka swifundhankulu, na
lava mi nga kona eka Yindlu leyi, inkomu.
Hi ku landzelela Nawu wa Vululamisi, Ndzawulo ya
Vululamisi
yi
fanele
ku
vona
leswaku
xiyimo
xa
vakhotsiwa hi lexi hloniphekaka no amukeleka ku ya
hi
Vumbiwa
ra
Afrika
Dzonga.
Xiyenge
xa
35,
xiyenge-ntsongo xa 2e xa Vumbiwa, xi vula leswaku
mubohiwa un'wana ni un'wana u ni mfanelo ya ku va a
nyikiwa vutshamo. Loko hi vulavula hi vutshamo, a
hi
vuli
xitandzi,
hi
vula
ndhawu
kwalahaya
khotsweni. Mubohiwa un'wana ni un'wana u fanele a
tlhela a nyikiwa swakudya.
Loko hi ta va hi rhendzelekile na tikhotso leti, hi
kume leswaku vabohiwa lava va dyaka va xurha, va
hava
swiphiqo
loko
va
ya
eku
etleleni.
Kutani
11 October 2001
Page 139 of 225
Ndzawulo ya Vululamisi yi vona leswaku vabohiwa va
xurha.
Vabohiwa
va
fanele
va
nyikiwa
swo
hlaya,
tibuku, timagazininyana leswaku va ta kota ku cinca
mianakanyo ya vona. Va fanele ku tshunguriwa loko
va vabya, hikuva xiyimo lexi loko xo ka xi nga
cinceki, matshan'wini ya ku va vabohiwa lavaya va
va
vanhu
lava
va
cincika,
va
vuya
se
va
ri
tinghunavalayi.
Ndzi pfumeleleni ku khensa no tlangela Ndzawulo ya
ta Vululamisi eka ntirho lowukulu swonghasi lowu yi
wu endlaka wa ku va yi hlayisa no dyondzisa lava va
nga dyohela van'wanyana, hi ku va nyika dyondzo hi
ku hambana-hambana ka yona, hi ku va nyika leswi
vuriwaka
tindhawu
to
hungasa
leswaku
va
kota
ku
endla mintlangu yo karhi, hi ku va pfumelela ku va
ni leswi vuriwaka 'mpfuxelelo wa moya'-RDP of the
soul. Leswi swi vula leswaku va kota ku cinca laha
mimoyeni ya vona loko mpfuxelelo lowu wu endliwa hi
un'wana wa lava va nga tshama va khomiwa, ivi a
vuya a ya dyondzisa vamakwavo. Va dyondzisiwa hi ta
rihanyu ni nhlayiseko, va nyikiwa swakudya leswi
akaka miri ni miehleketo ya vona.
11 October 2001
Page 140 of 225
Ndza ha tlhela nakambe ndzi tlhelela eka swakudya
leswi, Holobye, timhaka ta ku swekela vakhotsiwa ti
teka nkarhi swinene. Va pfuka nimpundzu va sungula
ku tseleka mapoto hi awara ya mune, leswaku loko
awara ya tsevu yi fika, vabohiwa va va va xurhile
na tivhene ti va yimerile ku va rhwala ti va yisa
etihubyeni
ta
milawu.
Leswi
swi
teka
nkarhi
wo
tala. Hambiswiritano, swirhalanganyi swi kona eka
ndzawulo leyi. Hi rhendzelekile na tijele to fana
na Pollsmoor laha Western Cape, jele ya le Joni ni
ya le Pitori eka provhinsi ya Gauteng.
eNorthern Province, ndzi vile un'wana wa lava nga
hlawuriwa ku endzela tijele, hi yile eka tindhawu
to
fana
na
va
Potgietersrust,
Pietersburg,
Thohoyandou, Malamulele, Tiyani, Tzaneen, Ritavi ni
le ka hosi Muhlava, hi ya vona leswaku xana vona va
swi
endlisa
ku
yini?
Xiyimo
hi
lexi
xa
njhani?
Kutani hi hlanganile na ntlimbano na ku manyana ka
vabohiwa,
leswi
endlaka
leswaku
va
vumba
leswi
vuriwaka 'tihuvo ta nyimpi kwale khotsweni, leswi
vuriwaka
gangsterism.
Ka
lwiwa
le
khotsweni.
Ku
lweriwa swilo swo tirhisiwa leswintsongo leswi nga
kona. Kumbexana munhu a nga vutisa leswaku swilo
11 October 2001
swa
kona
hi
Page 141 of 225
swihi,
va
lwela
swilo
swo
fana
ni
swiponci loko se va lava ku etlela. I ``survival of
the fittest''.
Eka
timhaka
ta
milandzu
leyintsongo
leyi
se
ku
vulavuriweke ha yona, mutshami wa xitulu, tatana
Hosi Mokoena, u vulavurile hi milandzu leyi kutani
ndzi nge ngheni eka yona.
Ku na mhaka leyi nga hi khumba swinene loko hi ta
va hi ri le, leyi Holobye a yi yimeleke, ``the
terminally
ill
ones''.
Loko
hi
ta
va
hi
ri
ekhotsweni ejoni, hi hlanganile na vavabyi lava va
vabyaka swinene, lava va nga lo rindzela ku famba.
Loko hi vutisa leswaku hikwalaho ka yini vanhu va
muxaka lowu va ha hlayisiwile, va hi byele leswaku
Nawu a wu pfumeeli lava nga se voniwaka nandzu ku
va va famba va ya fa hi ku rhula emakaya. A va ri
kwalaho mibedweni ya vona, hi va langutile, hi nga
koti ku hlamulana na vona, kambe hi ri karhi hi swi
vona
leswaku
eka
nkarhi
wihi
kumbe
wihi
va
nga
tsemeka. Kutani a ndzi swi tivi leswaku nawu lowu
wa 30b loko wu kota ku angharhela lava vabyelaka ku
fa leswaku va nchunxeka, ku fana na lava se va
11 October 2001
Page 142 of 225
voniweke nandzu va swi kotaka ku muka va ya fela
ekaya.
Swo tala swi endliwile naswona swo tala swa ha ta
endliwa. Mfumo wa ANC a wu tshamangi, wu yimile hi
milenge
ku
vhakela
tihuvo
leti
ta
milawu
ku
vulavurisana na vabohiwa na maphorisa leswaku hi ta
ta laha endzeni ka Yindlu leyi ku fana na nkarhi wa
sweswi, hi ta nyika Holobye xiviko xa xiyimo lexi
nga kona lomuya etikhotsweni, leswaku loko Holobye
a
huma
na
lunghisa.
ndzawulo
ya
yena,
(Translation
of
va
ta
Tsonga
ya
va
ya
paragraphs
follows.)
[Hon Chairperson, Minister of Correctional Services
Mr Skosana, hon members from provincial governments
and hon members present in this House, I thank you.
According
to
the
Correctional
Services
Act,
the
Department of Correctional Services should see to
it
that
conditions
of
prisoners
respect
their
dignity and are acceptable in accordance with the
South African Constitution.
11 October 2001
Page 143 of 225
Section 35(2a) of the Constitution stipulates that
every
prisoner
has
a
right
to
be
allocated
accommodation. When we speak of accommodation we
are
not
referring
to
a
place
to
stay,
but
to
accommodation in the prison. Every prisoner must be
given food.
After going on a visiting tour of prisons, we found
that prisoners who eat to their satisfaction did
not
experience
any
difficulties
when
going
to
sleep. The Department of Correctional Services sees
to
it
that
prisoners
eat
to
their
satisfaction.
Prisoners must be given reading materials, books
and magazines in order to change their state of
mind. They must receive treatment when they fall
ill, and all these things must be done because if
their state of mind does not change, they will come
back hardened criminals.
Allow me to thank them for and congratulate the
Department of Correctional Services on its great
task
of
looking
after
and
seeing
to
the
rehabilitation of those who committed offences in
respect of other people. The department is doing
11 October 2001
its
best
to
Page 144 of 225
teach
them
education,
and
recreational
facilities
in
different
through
the
so
as
spheres
provision
to
enable
of
of
them
to
take part in different sporting activities, and to
allow them to rejuvenate their souls. That causes
them to change their spiritual state, especially if
this is done by an ex-convict, who, after his/her
release
from
prison,
comes
back
to
preach
for
prisoners in prisons. They are taught about health
and social life, and given rich food in order to
build their bodies and minds.
Hon Minister, I would like to go back and speak
about
food.
The
process
of
cooking
food
for
prisoners takes quite some time. They wake up at 4
am and start cooking food for prisoners and by six
o'clock in the morning prisoners must have finished
eating
and
be
satisfied.
As
soon
as
they
have
finished eating, vans are waiting to carry them to
judicial courts. This takes an enormous amount of
time.
However, problems still crop up in this department.
We
went
on
a
prison
tour
and
visited
Pollsmoor
11 October 2001
prison
in
Page 145 of 225
the
Johannesburg
Western
and
Cape,
Pretoria
the
in
prisons
Gauteng.
in
In
the
Northern Province, I was one of the members who was
delegated
to
following
prisons:
Thohoyandou,
and
Chief
visit
prisons.
We
visited
Potgietersrus,
Malamulele,
Muhlava's
Tiyani,
kraal,
in
the
Pietersburg,
Tzaneen,
order
to
Ritavi
see
how
administration of the law is done there and the
type of conditions that prevailed.
We have realised that the overcrowding of prisons
always
gives
rise
gangsterism.
fight
for
to
There
the
the
are
forming
fights
utilisation
of
in
of
gangs
prisons.
scarce
and
They
facilities.
Perhaps one may ask which types of facilities they
fight
for.
mattresses
They
to
fight
sleep
on
for
at
things
sleeping
like
sponge
time.
It
is
always a case of survival of the fittest.
In
regard
discussed
to
minor
already,
offences,
the
hon
which
kgoshi
have
Mokoena
been
has
already deliberated at length about that and I will
therefore not speak about it.
11 October 2001
Page 146 of 225
There was one point on our visiting tour of prisons
which touched our hearts and also that of the hon
Minister,
and
this
is
prisoners
suffering
from
terminal illness. When we visited the Johannesburg
prison
we
terminal
came
across
illness,
who
prisoners
were
just
suffering
waiting
to
from
die.
When we asked why such prisoners were not released
from jail in order to go and die peacefully at
home, the reply was that if a prisoner is still
awaiting trial and has not been sentenced, the law
does not allow such a prisoner to be released from
jail. These prisoners were in their beds, we looked
at them and could not manage to communicate with
them, but we could see that they could die at any
time. I do not know if section 30(b) of the Act can
be amended to include prisoners awaiting trial to
be released like those already sentenced, so that
they can go and die peacefully at their homes.
Most things have been done and a lot is still to be
done.
The
ANC
Government
is
not
resting
on
its
laurels, but has taken it upon itself to undertake
a tour, visiting prisons, in order to communicate
with prisoners, prison warders and the police. By
11 October 2001
Page 147 of 225
so doing it enabled us to report back to this House
about what is taking place at this point in time.
We are reporting back to the hon the Minister in
regard to the conditions in our prisons. This will,
in
turn,
enable
the
hon
the
Minister
and
the
officials of his department to go and rectify some
issues.]
In conclusion, gone are the days when the prison
system
in
South
Africa
was
internationally
condemned for gross human rights violations; when
prisoners
were
overcrowded
in
communal
cells
-
youth and adults kept together and treated in the
same
way;
when
prisons
were
characterised
by
militaristic and racist officials; and when prisons
were closed institutions with no media or outside
inspection allowed.
Thanks
to
democracy,
system
upholds
the
our
right
correctional
to
human
services
dignity.
Offenders are being rehabilitated because they are
the future and the leaders of tomorrow.
11 October 2001
Page 148 of 225
Mr K D S DURR: Madam Chairperson, hon Minister, may
I just say, before I start, that it was like music
to my ears to hear the Minister singing the praises
of the concept of restorative justice, because, I
believe, that is the way that we should go and that
is the most fertile field that we can plough in
order
to
improve
circumstances
in
our
prison
services.
I
wish
to
focus
upon
the
proposed
new
section
6(5)(b), where it is stated that:
As
soon
as
possible
after
admission,
every
prisoner must:
(b) ...
undergo
a
health
status
examination,
which must include testing for contagious
and communicable diseases as defined in the
Health Act, 1977 (Act No. 63 of 1977), if
in the opinion of the medical officer it is
necessary to protect or maintain the health
of the prisoners or other persons.
11 October 2001
I
have
read
Page 149 of 225
the
provisions
of
the
Health
Act
carefully and - perhaps the Minister can help me my understanding is that this may not cover Aids,
and the Minister knows that Aids is one of the
worst problems that we have in our prisons. I hope
he is going to tell me that it does.
I want to give him just one example, in my own
constituency, that occurred a few weeks ago. For
obvious reasons I will not mention the place names
or names of people involved. There was a well-known
and
middle
aged
lady
in
a
village,
in
my
constituency, who was recently raped by two youths.
The
two
youths
broke
into
her
house
and
stole
liquor and electrical appliances and then brutally
raped her.
This person had a tremendous problem: an emotional
problem, as well as a physical problem. There were
some doubts as to whether the people who had raped
her had Aids or not. Her reaction to the AZT which
she had been advised to take was, for other medical
reasons, so severe that there were doubts as to
whether she would survive the AZT treatment. And so
11 October 2001
Page 150 of 225
the doctors and the lawyers communicated with the
police and prison authorities to see whether they
could
have
the
offenders
that
had
been
arrested
tested for Aids.
However, the offenders refused to allow themselves
to
be
tested.
So
this
woman
had
this
terrible
choice of whether to go on or not. The medical
opinion was that if they were negative, they would
have stopped the AZT treatment in her particular
case, although there is a window problem, I know.
It is not purely of academic interest; it is of
tremendous
interest
that
we
clear
this
up
if,
raised
the
indeed, there is any confusion.
My
hon
colleagues
question
are
Matthee
of
releasing
simply
clogging
interesting,
if
one
and
Lever
unsentenced
up
reads
the
prisoners
system.
Judge
Hannes
It
that
is
Fagan's
report, that 17 500 suspects granted bail of as
little as R100
could not afford it, and languished
for up to 18 months in jail before their cases were
heard.
I
believe
that
even
now
that
can
be
11 October 2001
Page 151 of 225
alleviated by applications to the courts. But, as
my hon colleague explained so well, there is an
amendment on its way, I believe, which will put the
matter beyond doubt.
That is the situation we have to deal with. There
is absolutely no question that it is an untenable
situation if a man or a woman can be put in prison
for
a
minor
offence
herself
raped
then
minor
a
by
an
sentence
and
then
find
Aids-infected
becomes
a
himself
prisoner,
death
or
and
sentence.
That is an untenable situation.
There is also the question of the provisions which
allow for the separation and testing of prisoners.
I would hope that there would be some attempt - I
believe
the
Bill
allows
for
this
-
to
separate
people who have been tested for HIV.
But of course, there are great cost implications. I
would like to hear the hon the Minister's opinion
on the testing side and on the administration of
the
whole
process,
apart
that I may have raised.
from
any
legal
aspects
11 October 2001
Page 152 of 225
I will separate any criticism of the Minister from
the
Minister
himself
because
I
have
the
highest
personal admiration for him and I have known him
for a long time. But the fact of the matter is that
the hon the Minister said that a nation is judged
by the way it treats its prisoners. I hope our
nation is not going to be judged by the way we
treat our prisoners.
I am not saying that people are not doing their
best or that the hon the Minister is not doing his
best. But, if one reads Dr Craven's report, which
was put before the Portfolio Committee, or other
reports of the situation in Diepkloof, this is not
something we can be proud of. I know that the hon
the Minister is aware of it and that he is trying
to do something about it. That is the difference,
of course. But the fact of the matter is that Dr
Craven,
when
he
was
briefing
the
Portfolio
Committee in the Assembly on 2 October, said of the
medical situation in Pollsmoor Prison that one was
quite
shocked
at
the
alarming
state
of
health,
which could even become a danger to public health
generally.
11 October 2001
Page 153 of 225
We have noted that and I am quite sure that the hon
the
Minister
and
his
department
have
noted
that
too. We wish him well.
This
Bill
represents
a
substantial
movement
forward. But there are matters that still need to
be
cleared
up,
as
has
been
suggested
by
my
colleagues in the Other Place in the committee and
by
my
hon
colleague
Lever,
on
the
question
of
awaiting-trial prisoners.
I think 60% of people in the prisons are, in fact,
awaiting-trial prisoners, but they sit there for up
to
18
months.
It
is
an
untenable
situation,
particularly when they are also exposed to health
risks on top of the inconvenience and the problems
of privation.
I wish the Minister well. I know he means well. I
know he is going to do his best. I know that there
are improvements on the way.
We support the Bill. [Applause.]
11 October 2001
Mr
T
S
Page 154 of 225
SETONA:
distinguished
Madam
officials
Chair,
from
hon
the
Minister,
Department
of
Correctional Services, hon members of this august
House, for us members of the Select Committee on
Security
and
Constitutional
Development,
the
tabling of this amending Bill this afternoon once
more confirms the relevance of this House in the
national legislative processes of our country.
It will have been noted by members of this House
that this Bill has taken an unusually long period
before
tabling.
speakers
have
I
think
referred
the
to
Minister
that,
and
and
why
other
that
particular situation occurred.
This
was
precipitated
by
the
extraordinarily
careful consideration the committee had to give to
the Bill, through consultation with all relevant
stakeholders and sharp contradictions between the
Department
Department
Development
of
of
on
Correctional
Justice
some
aspects
Services
and
of
and
the
Constitutional
the
Bill,
which
relate to the concurrence of authority between the
judiciary and the correctional services.
11 October 2001
Page 155 of 225
It is worth mentioning that this was indeed not an
easy
process,
but
rather
complex
and
at
times
riddled with tensions which the committee had to
manage before finalising the Bill.
We are proud and confident to say that there were
no major contentions pertaining to the objectives
and the overall thrust of the Bill. We all agreed
that
something
must
be
done
to
correct
the
appalling conditions of overcrowding in our prisons
as a matter of urgency.
At the heart of the contention underpinning this
Bill was the whole principle of the separation of
powers between different branches of government in
making
interventions
to
address
the
inhuman
overcrowding in our prisons. The Minister and the
chairperson have referred to this point.
Clearly,
the
question
of
the
conditions
of
prisoners is not something that we can take for
granted, but it is a fundamental principle which is
grounded within our Bill of Rights. In Chapter 2
11 October 2001
section
Page 156 of 225
35(2)(e)
of
our
Constitution
it
is
stipulated that:
Everyone
who
sentenced
is
detained,
prisoner,
has
including
the
right
every
...
to
conditions of detention that are consistent with
human dignity, including at least exercise and
the
provision,
accommodation,
at
state
expense,
nutrition,
reading
of
adequate
material
and
medical treatment ...
Given
this,
Government
it
has
is
the
therefore
duty,
from
clear
time
that
to
time,
the
to
ensure that these conditions are adhered to and to
provide a legislative framework to realise this. It
is in this context that we welcome this Bill, with
the
hope
that
it
will
go
a
long
way
towards
addressing the problems under discussion.
In
enriching
its
grasp
of
the
conditions
of
prisoners, the select committee has gone all out to
visit flashpoint prisons in the Western Cape and
Gauteng. I think some members have mentioned this a
well. We did this to ensure that we did not rely on
11 October 2001
Page 157 of 225
statistics that are hyped in the media, but saw for
ourselves and also talked to prison management and
prisoners about the conditions of prisons.
What transpired from this was not only shocking,
but a gross violation of the supreme law of our
country. We witnessed a situation where the cells
were overpopulated to almost 250-300% levels. The
striking feature of this overpopulation is that it
only affects the awaiting-trial prisoners, amongst
whom some have already spent more than a year in
prison.
These
appalling
levels
of
overcrowding
expose
prisoners to health hazards, thus increasing the
spread of diseases amongst the prisoners. They also
allow acts of sodomy to go undetected by prison
officials,
thereby
escalating
the
spread
of
the
scourge of HIV/Aids, which is already spreading at
an alarming rate in prisons.
Indeed as a nation and country, we dare not fail to
address this problem. It is our problem, and not
the problem of prisoners who are regarded as having
11 October 2001
Page 158 of 225
caused untold misery to our people and therefore
should be subjected to inhuman conditions, as some
may view it.
It is worth mentioning that the correctional system
in
our
country
was
never
geared
to
serve
the
purpose of rehabilitation. It was a system in which
all forms of dehumanisation were meted out against
our people.
With the 1994 post-apartheid era, we ought to unite
in
vision,
purpose
and
deeds
to
transform
this
system. The Bill before us this afternoon is doing
precisely that.
Some concerns were raised in the course of public
hearings
cautioning
situation
through
criminals
and
that
this
those
we
Bill
that
may
in
have
not
which
create
a
dangerous
committed
serious
crimes get released.
We
can
assure
this
House
that
the
Bill
is
straightforward against the following category of
awaiting-trial
prisoners:
those
detained
for
11 October 2001
murder,
rape,
Page 159 of 225
robbery
where
the
wielding
of
a
firearm was involved, assault with intent to cause
grievous bodily harm, assault of a sexual nature,
and offences under any law relating to the illicit
conveyance or supply of dependence-producing drugs
or any conspiracy, incitement or attempt to commit
any offence referred to in this schedule.
This Bill goes further to include domestic violence
as defined in the Domestic Violence Act of 1998,
and such offences as the Minister may prescribe by
regulation.
On the question of the separation of powers, we are
confident
that
there
is
no
infringement
by
any
branch of Government on another's jurisdiction, as
the
principle
Ministers,
Services
that
and
of
is
the
concurrence
the
between
Minister
Minister
of
for
the
two
Correctional
Justice
and
Constitutional Development, is being addressed in
the amendment.
The committee is proud to report that regulation,
subsequent to this Bill, will address the questions
11 October 2001
Page 160 of 225
of terminally ill awaiting-trial prisoners who are
currently
not
allowed
to
die
a
decent
death
at
home. I think that this will address the concerns
raised by Mrs Nkuna.
Relating to this is the issue of allowing awaitingtrial prisoners to attend funerals of their parents
and loved ones. Thinking in terms of the African
culture, we are bound to ensure from time to time
that
our
laws
are
consistent
with
African
traditions, norms and customs. We were told that if
an awaiting-trial prisoner's mother dies, he is not
allowed to go and observe that ritual. It was our
resolution
at
committee
level,
together
with
officials from the department, that as we map out
the regulation, we need to address that particular
concern as well.
Allow me to thank members of the opposition for
their display of maturity in relation to this Bill.
This has signified ... [Time expired.] [Applause.]
[Laughter.]
11 October 2001
Page 161 of 225
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Madam Chair,
first, I would like to congratulate Kgoshi Mokoena
on being appointed or elected as the chairperson of
the
select
committee.
I
think,
like
his
predecessors, he is doing as he said earlier on.
I also agree with him that we are trying to run one
of
the
best
including
admit
correctional
some
that
transparency
systems
parts
of
the
Government's
have
also
the
in
world.
been
used
the
I
region,
must
also
policies
of
against
us,
because some of the things we talk about and are
dealing
with
now,
like
corruption
and
mismanagement, are presumed never to have happened
in the past. Instead of being used as points in
favour of the Government policies and the way they
are going, these phenomena are sometimes exploited
as points of weakness. We are trying to deal with
corruption,
and
therefore
we
are
labelled
as
corrupt. Those who did not want to deal with it
were
not
corrupt,
apparently.
We
ought
to
be
careful lest we fall into the trap of simply using
the spear against ourselves.
11 October 2001
Page 162 of 225
Yes, I agree with Kgoshi that the Bill is of a
technical nature and it is up to us as politicians,
managers and administrators to try and implement
those provisions. We will try to implement them.
I remember at some point I used to be lambasted on
the question of overcrowding and its consequences.
After members had visited prisons or seen them in
newspapers or on television, they would say that I
was running five-star hotels. They have moved from
this to the other extreme and are now claiming that
I am ill-treating offenders. So where do I stand
with hon members?
I am glad that members have shown an interest by
visiting prisons to see what is happening. Maybe we
should
also
prisons,
as
make
Mrs
provision
Nkuna
has
for
the
heads
suggested,
to
of
appear
before the select committee so that they can inform
members why they are doing some of these things. We
have
about
240
prisons
around
the
country.
Sometimes, having seen the conditions of one, we
tend
to
generalise.
But
we
should
try
to
be
systematic about this and get to those who fall
11 October 2001
within
that
Page 163 of 225
bracket
that
members
have
raised
questions about. There are many prisons which are
well managed and not overcrowded. There are those
which are extremely overcrowded.
The
question
of
overcrowding
and
awaiting-trial
prisoners is an issue that magistrates and judges
are
being
conscientised
about.
This
is
not
a
problem of Correctional Services. It has to do with
the sentencing policies and also the attitudes of
the magistrates. A member spoke about a 14-year-old
fellow who had stolen grapes. If the magistrate had
co-operated with the head of the prison, he would
not have sent this fellow to prison, but sent him
for correctional supervision. So we need this cooperation between these two institutions.
I agree with the hon Mr Matthee that we have dealt
with the separation of powers and I believe that
the provisions in the Bill are sufficient to tackle
some of the problems which might flow from these
provisions.
This
would
then
make
the
Bill
unconstitutional. I am satisfied that the select
committee has dealt with this, as the hon member
has suggested. I believe that some of the problems
11 October 2001
Page 164 of 225
could also be dealt with in terms of the Criminal
Procedure Act, Act 51 of 1977.
Prince
Zulu
was
right
about
the
consequences
of
overcrowding. We cannot run smooth programmes in
rehabilitation
once
we
are
overcrowded.
As
I
mentioned earlier, this is very difficult to do. I
also
agree
with
the
hon
member
when
he
links
rehabilitation with overcrowding. But the matter of
which
causes
which
becomes
a
major
question.
We
should also move on and state that the high rate of
recidivism, that is repeat offenders, is also due
to the attitude of the public.
The public asks us to rehabilitate prisoners, and
when
they
leave,
equipped
with
society;
they
having
skills,
are
been
they
are
stigmatised
rehabilitated
not
and
and
accepted
cannot
by
find
employment. One finds that society is also hostile
towards
former
prisoners.
They
hunt
around
for
employment and when they do not get employed, they
remember that they used to get R5 000 hijacking
cars but now they are not getting anything. They
also remember that they used to get three meals a
11 October 2001
Page 165 of 225
day in prison, so they ask themselves: Why am I
staying here within this hostile society?
This is not only a prison problem, but a societal
problem as well. If we do not accept them, they
will land in prison again.
The
hon
Mr
Lever
was
simply
emphasising
the
question of the consultation of Ministers. We were
satisfied and we will deal with that as Ministers
and we will abide by those provisions in trying to
deal
with
question
of
overcrowding.
I
think
the
issue of finger printing is now being dealt with,
within the Department of Justice and Constitutional
Development and the police, so it will be coming
down to the Correctional Services. We need to have
a systematic type of process there.
The
hon
member
prisoners'
humanely.
Nkuna
rights.
The
reiterated
They
need
accommodation
the
point
to
be
ought
to
be
about
treated
clean,
there ought to be rehabilitation, recreation and
church services. I think we have that in place.
11 October 2001
The
issue
Page 166 of 225
of
the
terminally
ill
prisoners
has
become a monkey on my shoulder now that I have said
that I will deal with it. I think I need to deal
with it in a more detailed way, because it also
depends on who certified the person terminally ill.
Doctors come from the Department of Health. Whether
the
doctor
has
certified
that
person
terminally
ill, that is another question. If the doctor has,
then we have to take it from there ourselves and
use certain processes to relieve the situation. It
is like the question of private hospitals. We do
not
say
that
a
person
or
prisoner
who
is
sick
should go to a private hospital, but when a doctor
says that a person is sick and she or he must go a
certain hospital, that hospital which is a private
hospital, then we have no choice. They do that. We
need to deal with that situation. I think it is a
very
touchy
point
that
has
been
raised
about
two
myself
where
terminally ill prisoners.
I
have
come
applications
across
were
one
made.
or
I
think
that
we
have
relieved that stress. We need also the assistance
11 October 2001
and
Page 167 of 225
co-operation
of
doctors.
Sometimes
prisoners
can be very devious. In many cases some of them
would
be
sick.
according
to
There
which
are
one
regulations,
takes
the
again
person
to
hospital. There must be some security measures that
one applies. If one, say, removes the shackles or
handcuffs in hospital, then the doctor should give
that
instruction,
so
that
he
can
take
responsibility.
If
doctors
do
not
say
that,
officials
are
also
afraid just to take the shackles off the prisoners,
because it has happened many a time that they have
done that and the prisoner has escaped. All of a
sudden
he
is
[Laughter.]
fit
They
and
are
healthy,
not
dealing
and
he
with
goes.
ordinary
people, but with people who are trying to leave the
system. For 24 hours a day they are also thinking
of how to leave the system.
We
have
prisoners
who
know
constitutional
law
better than the prison officials. I have letters
coming
to
me
in
which
prisoners
quote
the
Constitution from A to Z, saying that in terms of
11 October 2001
this
or
that
Page 168 of 225
section
they
ought
to
be
paroled
because of this or that provision. They quote the
criminal law, and they read it because they do not
want to be there. They want to leave the system. At
times they use various devious methods to try to
leave the system.
We are moving on with the programme of restorative
justice. As I said, we believe that this is part of
the healing process and the rehabilitation process,
where a victim can also meet with the perpetrator
and try to find out why this happened to her or to
him. At times when we consider placing a person on
parole we think that he or she needs to see the
victim and somehow explain why some of these things
happened to her. Whether it was rape or assault
that took place, the person who wants to be placed
on parole should also be courageous enough to say
that he did certain thing to the victim and is
sorry and admits that he should have not done it.
Why did he do this to her?
At some point we know that when they are in prison
they have graduated. When they are working in a
11 October 2001
workshop
they
Page 169 of 225
do
get
money
put
aside
for
them.
Others can even say, ``Look, I have been in prison
for so many years and I have saved so much. Now I
need to redress the situation by paying the school
fees
for
the
victim's
child
for
a
year.''
It
depends on the cases, but we want to do things like
this so that people can reconcile and restore faith
and confidence in each other. [Time expired.]
Debate concluded.
Bill, subject to proposed amendments, agreed to in
accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.
AGRICULTURAL RESEARCH AMENDMENT BILL
(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)
Rev
P
MOATSHE:
Chairperson,
hon
Minister,
hon
members, the role of any legislature is to oversee
executive
action
executive action.
and
not
to
participate
in
11 October 2001
Page 170 of 225
This is the fundamental principle upon which the
doctrine
of
the
separation
of
powers
rests.
In
South Africa, we have incorporated this principle
in our Constitution, and have made it a requirement
for
open,
democratic
and
accountable
government.
Section 9 of the Agricultural Research Act of 1990
has created a situation in which this principle is
fundamentally
compromised.
It
has
involved
the
legislative arm in the appointment of members of
the
Agricultural
Research
Council,
which
is
exclusively an executive function.
This amendment is therefore necessary to bring the
procedure
for
Agricultural
the
appointment
Research
Council
of
members
to
the
in
line
with
the
Constitution, and in particular with the principle
of
the
separation
Constitutional
of
argument,
powers.
there
Apart
is
from
another
the
reason
why I think this amendment should be welcomed.
The
Agricultural
Research
Council
plays
a
very
powerful role in terms of agricultural research.
The council determines the policy and objectives of
the ARC. It has control over its functions, the
11 October 2001
Page 171 of 225
exercise of its powers and the execution of its
duties.
Given
the
powers
of
the
council
in
setting
the
agricultural research agenda, how do we ensure that
its
policy
and
objectives
are
aligned
to
the
national agricultural policy and objectives of our
democratic
government?
This
question
is
of
particular importance.
Given the fact that the private farming sector in
South Africa plays a dominant and critical role in
funding
agricultural
research,
how
do
we
ensure
that the agricultural agenda is not manipulated by
these
private
financing
concerns
for
their
own
benefit, but is aimed at the development of our
agricultural
sector
to
the
benefit
of
all
South
Africans, especially the poor and the previously
disadvantaged?
This amendment somewhat allays fears, because the
Minister is given the power to appoint members to
the
council
who
can
ensure
that
the
agriculture
research agenda is not dominated by anybody seeking
11 October 2001
Page 172 of 225
fulfilment of their own commercial needs, but is
rather
set
by
those
who
will
ensure
that
agricultural research benefits the whole country.
Therefore
the
select
committee
supports
this
amending Bill. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Declaration of vote:
Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Voorsitter, die Nuwe NP steun
die wysigingswetsontwerp. [Chairperson, the New NP
supports the amending Bill.]
We support the Bill. We want to state the fact
that, although the parliamentary process has not
been
sidelined
but
changed
through
this,
it
is
still important for the department to see to it
that the committees be informed about the decisions
and process in due time so that we can oversee
where we have to.
11 October 2001
Page 173 of 225
Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the
Constitution.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON LAND
AND ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS - SADC REGION SHARED
WATERCOURSES PROTOCOL
Rev
P
MOATSHE:
Chairperson,
in
1970
the
United
Nations General Assembly advised its International
Law
Commission
to
devise
legislation
that
would
govern the management of non-navigable waters.
This legislation would particularly concern shared
watercourses. Drafting was started in 1974 and by
1997
the
convention
on
the
law
on
non-navigable
uses of international watercourses was completed.
South
Africa
ratified
this
convention
in
1998.
Because two thirds of member states have yet to
ratify it, this convention cannot be implemented.
Due to the high demand for and scarcity of water in
the SADC region, the countries of this region also
sought to manage their shared watercourses. This
gave birth to the protocol on shared watercourse
11 October 2001
Page 174 of 225
systems in the SADC, and it was subsequently signed
by member states in August 1995.
This protocol then called for an alignment with the
UN
convention,
hence
the
birth
of
the
revised
protocol. The revised protocol aligns the protocol
with
the
thereof
UN
and
environmental
current
convention,
paying
particular
protection
ecological
embracing
of
concerns
the
principle
attention
water
to
the
resources
and
while,
at
the
same
time, ensuring that the revised protocol remains a
genuine
SADC
instrument
which
articulates
the
region's needs.
The protocol was adopted by the Ministers' summit
on 7 August 2000.
All the countries of SADC, with the exception of
the
Democratic
Republic
of
Congo,
signed
the
revised protocol, because the late president of the
DRC, Laurent Kabila, failed to attend the heads of
state
meeting
However,
the
at
DRC
which
had
the
been
signing
part
discussions leading to the protocol.
took
of
place.
all
the
11 October 2001
Page 175 of 225
The overall objective of this protocol is to foster
closer co-operation for the judicious, sustainable
and
co-ordinated
management,
protection
and
utilisation of shared watercourses and to advance
the SADC agenda of regional integration and poverty
alleviation.
In order to achieve this objective, the protocol
seeks to promote and facilitate the establishment
of
shared
watercourse
shared
watercourse
agreements
institutions
for
watercourses;
to
the
advance
and
shared
management
a
of
sustainable,
equitable and reasonable utilisation of the shared
watercourses;
integrated
to
promote
environmentally
the
co-ordinated
and
development
and
sound
management of shared watercourses; to promote the
harmonisation
and
monitoring
of
legislation
and
policies for planning the development, conservation
and
protection
of
shared
watercourses
and
the
allocation of the resources thereof; and to promote
research and technology development information and
exchange
capacity-building
appropriate
technologies
in
in
the
application
shared
of
watercourse
11 October 2001
management.
Page 176 of 225
All
of
these
objectives
are
in
line
with the New Africa Initiative.
The
utilisation
equitable
into
and
of
a
reasonable
account
all
forces
of
including
natural
economical
and
an
taking
factors
and
geographical,
ecological
character,
environmental
in
requires
relevant
climatical,
a
watercourse
manner
the
circumstances,
hydrological,
shared
and
and
the
needs
other
social,
of
the
watercourse states concerned.
The population depends on the shared watercourse in
each watercourse state, the effects of the use or
uses
of
potential
the
shared
uses
conservation,
watercourse,
of
protection,
the
existing
watercourse,
development
and
and
the
economy
of use of the shared watercourse and the cost of
measures taken to that effect, and the availability
of alternatives of comparable value to a particular
planned or existing use.
The protocol was of importance to South Africa. It
sought to establish a management system for 60% of
11 October 2001
Page 177 of 225
the water resources that we are sharing with other
countries in the region. At present, South Africa
is
sharing
Limpopo,
four
waterbasins,
Inkomati
and
namely
Maputo
the
Rivers,
Orange,
with
our
neighbouring countries. These four rivers represent
the
most
developed
transboundary
watercourses
in
the region, and in several cases the demand exceeds
the availability of water.
We shall also benefit from the protocol in that we
shall
exchange
regarding
the
valuable
information
hydrological
and
and
data
hydrogeological
water quality and the meteorological and ecological
conditions of shared watercourses.
A
number
of
joint
commissions
and
technical
committees have already been established to discuss
and
negotiate
issues
of
common
interest
and
to
manage the water resources of the different places.
In conclusion, as the text of the revised protocol
originates, substantially, from other international
instruments that South Africa has already signed,
11 October 2001
Page 178 of 225
there should be no objection to its ratification.
[Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Report adopted in accordance with section 65 of the
Constitution.
ESTABLISHMENT OF JOINT COMMITTEE
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I move
the
draft
resolution
printed
in
my
name
on
the
Order Paper, as follows:
That the Council, subject to the concurrence of the
National Assembly, establishes a joint committee in
terms of Joint Rule 111 to consider the Revenue
Laws Second Amendment Bill, 2001.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of
the Constitution.
11 October 2001
Page 179 of 225
BIRTHDAY WISHES TO ARCHBISHOP TUTU
(Draft Resolution)
Mr N M RAJU: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) notes that, on Sunday 7 October 2001 -
*
a great South African;
*
a winner of the Nobel Peace Prize;
*
a lover of the human race;
*
a former caddie;
*
a great humorist;
*
an opponent of Bantu Education;
*
a
flickering
light
in
the
darkness
of
apartheid;
*
a stepper on toes of those who preached
racial
discrimination
as
a
political
philosophy;
*
a preacher of truth and reconciliation;
*
a paragon of virtue;
11 October 2001
*
a
Page 180 of 225
messenger
of
Christ
and
the
Word
of
God;
*
a
lover
samoosas,
of
cricket,
marshmallows,
and
Milo
vetkoek,
and
Yogi
Sip;
*
a great but simple fellow compatriot; and
*
in
short,
a
lovable
and
adorable
man,
turned 70 years of age; and
(2) joins
all
South
Africans
and
the
world
community ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Your time has
expired.
[Interjections.]
[Applause.]
Order!
Is
there any objection to the motion? [Interjections.]
I
must
limits
remind
for
members
motions,
that
we
have
yet
members
agreed
time
consistently
prepare motions that exceed the time that we have
agreed. That is unacceptable. In fact, members have
gone so far as to continue to read a motion even
when the Chair indicates that their time has ended.
I
find
that
unacceptable
and
I
am
really
not
prepared to agree that we conduct ourselves in this
11 October 2001
Page 181 of 225
way. Could members ensure that they prepare their
motions in accordance with the time provisions on
which we have agreed?
We will, Mr Raju, print the motion in full. Members
can deduce from what was read that it is a motion
of
congratulation
on
the
occasion
of
the
70th
birthday of Archbishop Tutu. I was able to deduce
that,
and
therefore
I
am
sure
that
hon
members
would deduce that. Is there any objection to that
motion? There is no objection.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of
the Constitution.
BIRTHDAY WISHES TO ARCHBISHOP TUTU
(Draft Resolution)
Mr M V MOOSA: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council congratulates Archbishop Desmond
Tutu on his 70th birthday in accordance with his
11 October 2001
Page 182 of 225
virtues as set out in the kind words of the hon
member Mr Raju.
[Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mr Moosa, I am not
quite sure what it is that you are attempting to
do. We cannot move a motion on the same subject as
a motion that has been agreed to by the House. I
would expect you, as a person who has written many
of the Rules that we utilise, to be fully aware of
that. We will therefore not even consider what you
said a few moments ago.
MANGAUNG AFRICAN CULTURAL FESTIVAL
(Draft Resolution)
Dr
P
J
C
NEL:
kennisgewing voor:
Dat die Raad -
(1) kennis neem -
Voorsitter,
ek
stel
sonder
11 October 2001
Page 183 of 225
(a) van Mangaung (die groter Bloemfontein) se
eie kultuur- en kunstefees wat jaarliks
plaasvind
tot
14
en
vanjaar,
Oktober,
vanaf
vir
die
10
Oktober
vierde
jaar
aangebied word; en
(b) dat
die
``Mangaung
Festival''
(MACUFE
African
2001)
Cultural
gisteraand
in
Bloemfontein deur die LUR van Sport, Kuns
en
Kultuur
geopen
is
en
feestelik
afgeskop het;
(2) die LUR en sy Departement gelukwens met die
inisiatief wat hulle neem;
(3) erken
dat
alle
inheemse
taalgemeenskappe
hiervan moet kennis neem en die kultuur en
geestesgoedere
wat
hulle
geniet
ook
aan
andere bekend moet stel en daardeur brûe bou
wat kan meehelp om 'n verenigde Suid-Afrika
te bou; en
(4) verder kennis neem -
11 October 2001
Page 184 of 225
(a) dat die Vrystaat almal uitnooi om deel te
neem aan die feestelike vermaak wat daar
aangebied word by die groot hart-fees wat
poog om al die kulture van oor die hele
land te verteenwoordig; en
(b) dat
109
produksies
aangebied
gaan
word
wat 'n totaal van 2 245 kunstenaars, van
wie 80 uit die buiteland, se talente sal
tentoonstel.
(Translation
of
Afrikaans
draft
resolution
follows.)
[Dr P J C NEL: Chairperson, I move without notice::
That the Council -
(1) notes that -
(a) Mangaung
(greater
Bloemfontein)
has
its
own arts and culture festival that takes
place
annually
and
is
presented
this
year, from 10 October until 14 October,
for the fourth year; and
11 October 2001
Page 185 of 225
(b) the "Mangaung African Cultural Festival"
(MACUFE 2001) was opened last night in
Bloemfontein by the MEC for Sport, Arts
and
Culture
and
that
it
commenced
festively;
(2) congratulates the MEC and his Department on
the initiative taken by them;
(3) recognises
that
communities
should
heritage
all
should
make
that
indigenous
take
note
the
culture
they
enjoy
of
and
known
linguistic
this
and
spiritual
to
others,
thereby building bridges that may contribute
to building a united South Africa; and
(4) further notes that -
(a) the Free State invites everyone to take
part in the festive entertainment offered
at the great heart festival that seeks to
represent all the cultures from all over
the country; and
11 October 2001
(b) 109
Page 186 of 225
productions
will
be
presented,
showcasing the talents of a total of 2
245 artists, 80 of whom are from abroad.]
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of
the Constitution.
FOREIGN INVOLVEMENT IN PRIVATE SECURITY INDUSTRY
(Draft Resolution)
Mnr A E VAN NIEKERK: Voorsitter, ek stel sonder
kennisgewing voor:
Dat die Raad -
(1) kennis neem dat -
(a) Suid-Afrika 'n reputasie het as 'n land
wat
buitelandse
beleggings
verwelkom
en
dat vryemarkaktiwiteite bevorder word;
(b) die
ANC-regering
hierdie
reputasie
in
stand gehou het deur betyds die vroeëre
11 October 2001
Page 187 of 225
besluit
om
buitelandse
Suid-Afrika
se
betrokkenheid
in
privaatsekuriteitsbedryf
te verban, te herroep;
(2) Minister Tshwete bedank dat hy die versoek en
voorstelle hieroor aanvaar het;
(3) ook die Ministers van Handel en Nywerheid en
van
Finansies
versoek
om
in
die
toekoms
betrokke te raak wanneer besluite geneem word
wat
Suid-Afrika
se
handelsbetrekkinge
kan
bedreig en selfs kan vernietig; en
(4) van
mening
is
dat
hierdie
ommeswaai
illustreer dat opposisiepartye in 'n werklike
demokrasie nie as vyand ervaar hoef te word
nie, maar as een van die bene waarop so 'n
demokrasie staan.
(Translation
of
Afrikaans
draft
resolution
follows.)
[Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, I move without
notice:
11 October 2001
Page 188 of 225
That the Council -
(1) notes that -
(a) South
Africa
country
has
where
a
reputation
foreign
as
investments
a
are
welcomed and where free market activities
are promoted; and
(b) the ANC Government has lived up to this
reputation
previous
by
timeously
decision
involvement
in
to
South
revoking
ban
the
foreign
Africa's
private
security industry;
(2) thanks
Minister
Tshwete
for
accepting
the
request and the proposals in this regard;
(3) also
requests
the
Ministers
of
Trade
and
Industry and of Finance to become involved in
future
when
threaten
and
decisions
even
trade relations; and
are
destroy
made
that
South
could
Africa's
11 October 2001
(4) is
of
the
illustrates
Page 189 of 225
opinion
that
that
this
about-turn
a
real
democracy
in
opposition parties need not be experienced as
the enemy, but as one of the legs on which
such a democracy stands.]
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of
the Constitution.
The Council adjourned at 18:04.
__________
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
WEDNESDAY, 10 OCTOBER 2001
ANNOUNCEMENTS:
National
Assembly
and
National
Provinces:
1.
The Speaker and the Chairperson:
Council
of
11 October 2001
(1) The
Page 190 of 225
Joint
Tagging
Mechanism
(JTM)
on
9
October 2001 in terms of Joint Rule 160(3),
classified the following Bill as a section
75 Bill:
(i) Immigration
Bill
[B
79
-
2001]
(National Assembly - sec 75).
(2) The
Minister
of
Wetsontwerp
Education
op
submitted
Gehalteversekering
the
vir
Algemene en Verdere Onderwys en Opleiding
[W
57
-
2001]
(National
Council
of
Provinces - sec 76) to the Speaker and the
Chairperson on 9 October 2001. This is the
official
Further
translation
Education
Assurance
Bill
of
the
and
[B
57
General
Training
-
2001]
and
Quality
(National
Council of Provinces - sec 76), which was
introduced
Provinces
in
by
the
the
National
Select
Council
of
Committee
on
Education and Recreation at the request of
the
Minister
2001.
of
Education
on
30
August
11 October 2001
Page 191 of 225
(3) The Minister for Justice and Constitutional
Development
submitted
Wysigingswetsontwerp
Aangeleenthede
[W
the
op
43
-
Geregtelike
2001]
(National
Assembly - sec 75) to the Speaker and the
Chairperson on 10 October 2001. This is the
official
Matters
(National
translation
Amendment
Assembly
of
Bill
-
sec
the
[B
43
75),
Judicial
-
2001]
which
was
introduced in the National Assembly by the
Minister on 20 August 2001.
TABLINGS:
National
Assembly
and
National
Council
of
Provinces:
Papers:
1.
The President of the Republic:
Report
and
Financial
Statements
of
the
Presidency for 2000-2001, including the Report
of the Auditor-General on Financial Statements
11 October 2001
Page 192 of 225
of Vote 1 - Presidency for 2000-2001 [RP 1682001].
2.
The Minister of Finance:
(a) Report
and
Financial
Statements
of
the
Development Bank of Southern Africa Limited
for 2000-2001.
(b) Report
of
Financial
the
Executive
Services
Officer
Board
on
of
the
the
Road
Accident Fund for 1999-2000.
3.
The Minister of Minerals and Energy:
Report
and
Department
2001,
of
Financial
Minerals
including
the
Statements
and
Report
Energy
of
the
of
for
the
2000-
Auditor-
General on the Financial Statements of Vote 29
- Minerals and Energy for 2000-2001 [RP 1722001].
COMMITTEE REPORTS:
11 October 2001
Page 193 of 225
National Council of Provinces:
1.
Report of the Select Committee on Labour and
Public
Enterprises
on
the
Alexkor
Limited
Amendment Bill [B 29 - 2001] (National Assembly
- sec 75), dated 10 October 2001:
The Select Committee on Labour and Public
Enterprises, having considered the subject
of the Alexkor Limited Amendment Bill [B 29
-
2001]
(National
Assembly
-
sec
75),
referred to it, reports that it has agreed
to the Bill.
2.
Report of the Select Committee on Labour and
Public
Enterprises
Amendment
Bill
[B
on
63B
the
-
Postal
2001]
Services
(National
Assembly - sec 75), dated 10 October 2001:
The Select Committee on Labour and Public
Enterprises, having considered the subject
of the
Postal Services Amendment Bill
[B
63B - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75),
11 October 2001
Page 194 of 225
referred to it, reports that it has agreed
to the Bill.
3.
Report
Services
of
the
on
Select
Committee
Provincial
Visit
to
on
Public
the
Eastern
Cape, dated 26 March 2001:
The Select Committee on Public Services, having
visited
the
Province
of
the
Eastern
Cape,
reports as follows:
A.
Introduction
The Committee undertook the visit to deal
with
matters
poverty
alleviation
housing
obtain
pertaining
projects.
first-hand
The
to
rural
projects
and
objective
information
roads,
on
was
RDP
to
progress
with provincial roads and houses engulfed
by continuous floods and tornadoes, and the
impact
of
disaster
relief
programmes
intended to reverse the catastrophe. This
in
turn
would
help
the
Committee
to
recommend what should be done to remedy the
11 October 2001
Page 195 of 225
situation.
The
decision
to
undertake
the
visit, came as a result of numerous calls
from
the
different
role-players
and
communities whose roads and houses had been
affected by the floods and tornadoes. The
visit
took
place
from
26
February
to
1
March 2001.
B.
Eastern Cape
1. . Delegation
The delegation consisted of Chief M L
Mokoena
(leader
of
the
delegation),
Messrs M A Sulliman, B J Mkhaliphi and
L Suka and Ms N D Ntwanambi. Mr M Nguqu
(Committee Secretary) and Ms K Pasiya
(Committee
Assistant)
accompanied
the
delegation.
2. . Meeting
with
Municipality
EG-Kei
District
11 October 2001
Page 196 of 225
Before
the
delegation
communities
and
inspections,
visited
undertook
they
had
a
site
meeting
with
members of the Mayoral Committee of the
EG-Kei District Municipality under the
leadership
of
Mr
M
Sogoni.
After
outlining the purpose of the visit in
the
region
following
to
the
was
Municipality,
conveyed
to
the
the
Committee:
The
Municipality
equitable
is
share
funded
of
the
by
the
national
fiscus and other grants to construct
new access roads and upgrade existing
access
roads
roads,
become
provincial
Works.
The
and
the
the
competency
Department
of
Municipality
is
intervene
and
proclaimed
district
arrangement
with
Since
the
1998,
proclaimed
of
Public
able
construct
the
EG-Kei
the
roads
to
the
per
Department.
Region
has
been hit hard by floods every year,
11 October 2001
Page 197 of 225
which has caused rapid deterioration
of the road infrastructure throughout
the region.
The
provincial
Department
of
Public
Works funded the roads hit by floods
in the Mt Ayliff and Tabankulu area
in 1999 (an amount of R2,7 million).
The Department arranged a plant unit
with
the
Municipality
affected
Drakensberg
to
roads.
upgrade
The
District
the
roads
badly
included
the following:
* T102 (Mt Ayliff) - 14 km
* Sipundu Access Road (Mt Ayliff) 2,5 km
* Goso Access Road (Mt Ayliff) - 1,3
km
* T110 (Tabankulu) - 11 km
The
site
Municipality
is
inspections
certification
of
involved
and
payments
with
the
to
the
11 October 2001
Page 198 of 225
Drakensberg
Plant
Unit.
The
work
started in August 2000 and is due for
completion on 31 March 2001.
The
national
Works
Department
introduced
Reconstruction
by
the
Public
made
Coast
to
Public
Emergency
Programme,
and
available
Wild
the
provincial
Works,
of
pioneered
Department
R12
312
cover
District
630
the
of
was
former
Council
Area
roads, including:
* R56
Harding/Umzimkhulu
Slip
-
Umzimkhulu
* T77
Bridge
Approach
-
Maluti/Mt
Fletcher
* T77 Road to Maluti
* T005 - Bizana Slip
* T017
from
N2
(Mt
Frere)
to
Cederville
* T70 to Maluti
* T11
Rietvlei
T063)
to
KZN
(from
R56
-
11 October 2001
Page 199 of 225
The
Department
Dotwana
manage
appointed
Consulting
this
progress.
involved
in
Engineers
allocation
The
Boonzaaier
and
to
monitor
Municipality
monitoring
the
is
progress
of these projects.
C.
Group (on-site) visits
1.
Disaster Housing (27 February 2001)
Damage
assessment
Provincial
Local
was
Department
Government,
Municipality.
done
of
by
the
Housing
and
together
Totally
partially
damaged
identified.
349
with
damaged
houses
houses
were
the
and
were
totally
damaged. R3,5 million was received from
the
Department
of
Housing
and
Local
Government. The balance at the time of
the visit was R470 489,76. These funds
were transferred to the account of the
Municipality.
11 October 2001
The
Page 200 of 225
funds
for
the
partially
damaged
house were allocated to the IDT. Of the
349 houses, the IDT built 50 houses.
All in all, 263 houses were complete
and 36 under construction.
During
the
managed
to
visit,
cover
the
the
delegation
Dutyini,
Spundu
and Mnceba areas in the district. The
following data is based on the areas
assessed by the Department of Housing
and Local Government, jointly with the
Municipality:
AFFECTED
VILLAGES
.................................. HOUS
ES COMPLETED
Dutyini ........................... 98
Siphundu .......................... 50
Mnceba ............................ 50
Goso .............................. 7
Luxwesa ........................... 4
Lwandlana ......................... 9
11 October 2001
Page 201 of 225
Ngxabaxha ......................... 13
Mbodleni .......................... 5
Shenxa ............................ 13
Lubhalasi ......................... 9
Colana ............................ 5
2.
Findings
The
houses
standard.
were
There
supervision
and
not
built
was
a
monitoring.
up
lack
to
of
Builders
were only trained for a period of four
months by the Department of Labour, and
thereafter contracted to build houses,
without any expert supervision on site,
for
the
duration
project.
The
dilapidated,
of
and
houses
with
sinking
after
the
are
now
roofs
and
wall cracks.
3.
Disaster Roads (27 February 2001)
(a) Spundu Access Road (Mt Ayliff): The
road
was
completed
in
November
11 October 2001
Page 202 of 225
2000,
and
is
still
in
good
condition.
(b) T110 (Mt Ayliff): The road is under
construction
by
the
Drakensberg
District Council. On the other end,
the road joins T109 - also affected
by
flood
made
to
disaster.
the
Council
Department
by
to
A
request
Drakensberg
the
District
Public
extend
was
Works
construction
work to this road (T109).
(c) T15 (from Mt Frere to Mt Fletcher):
The road is bladed and not attended
to.
The
Public
Works
Department
only reacts when there is a crisis
and
do
patching
the
necessary
to
make
gravel
the
road
travellable. Nevertheless, there is
no
consistency
road properly.
in
maintaining
the
11 October 2001
Page 203 of 225
(d) T100 (Mt Frere) - Lugangeni Amabaca
Great Place: The road is in a very
bad
condition
structure
Royal
is
Family
located
road,
in
and
the
badly
worn
of
the
the
and
has
the
wrath
earned
leaders,
out.
of
The
Lugangeni
vicinity
failure
road
causeway
to
is
of
the
attend
the
the
Municipality
all
traditional
apparently
not
being
sensitive enough and caring enough
about
the
plight
of
the
people
living in the area. The road leads
to
the
largest
district,
has
a
school
Makhawula
state
rainfall,
is
the
School,
which
During
heavy
hostel.
it
in
difficult
for
people to cross the road and access
subsistence products, as the bridge
that
is
links
people
broken.
As
community
couple
begin
of
to
a
remains
days
with
providers,
result,
stranded
until
disappear.
the
The
the
for
a
floods
road
was
11 October 2001
Page 204 of 225
classified and prioritised in terms
of the Community-Based Public Works
Programme, but nothing has yet been
done.
(e) T17
from
Cedarville:
N2
(Mt
The
Frere)
road
to
is
only
halfway under construction (31 km).
It is very bad on the other side,
and additional funding is required
for that portion (25 km).
(f) T454
(Mt
Frere),
Nomkholokotho:
state
of
approaches
from
The
road
T017
is
in
disrepair,
and
are
washed
being
to
a
bridge
out
because of soil erosion from both
ends (floods). Urgent attention is
needed.
(g) T98 Mt Ayliff/Mt Frere to Kokstad (Umzimvubu
District
Council):
The
road is the worst in the area; the
EG-Kei
District
Municipality
is
11 October 2001
Page 205 of 225
doing patch-gravelling and repairs.
However, the interventions are not
adequate,
despite
prioritised
Disaster
the
road
under
Damage
being
the
Floor
Programme.
The
Ndarala (Mt Frere) and Gogela (Mt
Ayliff) communities are separated,
on
both
sides
fast-running
of
the
river.
road,
There
by
is
a
no
bridge for the communities to cross
over.
Students
and
teachers
from
one side (Gogela) have to cross the
river
on
drums
pulled
along
by
home-made cables in order to reach
school on the other side (Ndarala).
People from Ndarala do the same to
reach
town.
Gogela
This
Gankankile)
when
traveling
arrangement
is
very
(known
hazardous
to
as
and
dangerous.
4.
Disaster Roads (28 February 2001)
(a) Maluti
Department
of
Public
Works
Camp Site Machinery: The machinery
11 October 2001
Page 206 of 225
is in a state of disrepair in the
camp. It had not been utilised for
some
time
(consequential
to
personnel having nothing to do on a
daily basis since 1994).
(b) T69 from Maluti to Lesotho borders:
The Mpotseng Village is located on
this
road.
damaged,
The
but
Reconstruction
road
is
still
of
badly
accessible.
the
road
is
needed from T12 to T646. Continuous
grading of the road is insufficient
because of water retention.
(c) T70: The Queensmercy Village, home
of
Chief
located
Through
Fund,
Jeremy
adjacent
the
the
construction,
finished.
Moshoeshoe,
is
to
this
road.
Disaster
Flood
Damage
road
and
is
is
undergoing
about
to
be
11 October 2001
Page 207 of 225
(d) T77
(Mt
Frere)
Lekgatlana:
from
The
R56
bridge
is
to
under
construction, but the road is not
accessible
present
from
there
both
is
ends.
At
plan
to
no
construct the road on both ends. A
A stream has been opened to allow
passengers
this
is
to
pass
hazardous
through,
and
but
dangerous,
and people risk their lives.
(e) T74
(Mt
Fletcher)
Tabachi-Cha
from
R56
to
The
road
is
Village:
badly damaged and the bridge washed
away by floods. At the moment the
road
is
not
attended
to
despite
being on tender and despite funds
made available by the Public Works
Department.
(f) T415
and
road
(Shepherds
T74:
It
does
anymore;
dongas,
and
Hope)
not
there
it
between
T77
resemble
are
needs
a
only
urgent
11 October 2001
Page 208 of 225
reconstruction.
for
this
There
is
in
the
road
no
plan
current
financial year. The road ("dongas")
is
supposed
to
serve
as
a
link
between Mt Fletcher and Maluti.
5.
Disaster Roads (1 March 2001)
(a) R56
Slip
at
Embuzweni
Village
-
(Umzimkhulu District Council): Two
major slips are under construction.
Progress is very slow due to a lack
of
adequate
funds.
In
respect
of
one of the slips, huge amounts of
tax-payers'
because
not
the
money
was
construction
primarily
performed
wasted
work
was
properly
and the same contractor was hired
again by the provincial Department
of
Public
Works
to
project at extra costs.
6.
Findings
rework
the
11 October 2001
Page 209 of 225
There are three Construction Units of
the
Public
Works
Department
in
the
province - Bambisana, Port Alfred and
Graaff-Reinet
machinery.
-
The
with
lot
Committee
of
was
good
informed
that the MEC responsible for transport
and roads committed himself to relocate
these
units
to
areas
where
they
are
needed most, but up to now nothing has
materialised.
Labour production is very low. There is
lack
of
proper
supervision
monitoring
of
the
Department's
personnel.
Public
The
and
Works
Committee
was informed that the staff clock in
late, at 12:00, and knock off at 15:30.
Working hours are from 08:00 to 16:00.
During the visit, some of the employees
were
found
intoxicated
during
working
hours.
The Public Works Department's machines
are
normally
standing
still,
either
11 October 2001
Page 210 of 225
along the roads or at the house of the
Mayor
of
Council,
the
and
Umzimvubu
are
not
District
utilised
as
intended, on a daily basis. It takes
from three weeks to one month to fix
(pump)
one
single
tyre
of
a
Grader.
Mechanical parts are removed at random
and transferred without any supervision
and/or audit from senior managers.
7.
Poverty
Alleviation
Projects
(1
March
2001)
RDP Housing
(a) Ibisi Pilot Project (30 houses): An
amount of R450 000 was received for
the
construction
of
this
project.
Construction started on 15 November
2000 - 15 houses are completed, the
remaining
15
still
under
construction. Workmanship is up to
an
acceptable
standard.
The
trainees are the beneficiaries, and
11 October 2001
Page 211 of 225
one person (expert) is employed to
look
after
them.
The
completion
date aimed for was 31 March 2001.
Of
the
grant,
R450
R315
000
000
state
is
subsidy
used
for
the
material. The remaining R135 000 is
meant for infrastructure. An amount
of R60 000 was requested from the
EG-Kei District Municipality to pay
for
labour.
The
Department
of
Housing approved R15 000 for this
project. R10 500 goes straight to
the top structure and the remaining
R4 500 to the basic infrastructure.
There
is
no
electricity,
sanitation
and/or
in
There
place.
social
service
water,
drainage
is
a
system
lack
of
infrastructure
a
-
schools, sports grounds, health and
welfare
facilities
and
capacity-
building programmes, aimed to lift
the
standard
community.
of
living
of
the
11 October 2001
Page 212 of 225
Nevertheless,
the
size
of
the
houses is 40 square metres.
(b) Clysdale
The
Cluster
project
November
taxi
was
2000.
rank,
repairs,
(at
Umzimkhulu):
completed
It
consists
washing
rental
of
bay,
market
in
a
tyre
stands
and
ablution facilities. The project is
a
complete
fiasco,
and
is
not
utilised. The chances of it being a
success
are
minimal.
There
is
neither water nor electricity, and
fencing
is
needed.
Consultation
between the Public Works Department
and
the
local
community
was
not
properly conducted.
(c) Umzimkhulu
Farm):
started,
Feedlot
The
project
and
operational stages.
D.
Recommendations
is
(at
has
Ebutha
just
undergoing
11 October 2001
1.
Page 213 of 225
The
Committee
recommends
that
the
national Department of Transport adopt
some
of
these
provincial
(proclaimed)
roads while the capacity of the newly
restructured
built
District
and/or
ultimately
Municipality
moulded,
transfer
in
the
is
order
to
function
of
maintaining the infrastructure roads to
the
District
Municipality
and
channel
funds to the District Municipality for
implementation.
2.
Resources
(be
it
machinery,
personnel
or finances) should be transferred to
locations where there is a greater need
for
their
utilisation,
in
order
to
planning
in
enhance service delivery.
3.
There
should
respect
of
be
proper
project
implementation
amongst the various cluster departments
to integrate the delivery of services
(in
line
with
the
Integrated
Development Planning Process).
11 October 2001
4.
Page 214 of 225
There needs to be proper departmental
monitoring and supervision of projects
in
respect
of
which
Public
Works
is
expending state resources.
5.
There
should
between
be
proper
government
(particularly
Public
beneficiaries
(whether
or
consultation
grouped
should
as
form
influences
departments
Works),
as
individuals
communities),
the
service
and
and
backbone
delivery
this
that
to
our
people.
E.
Conclusion
The visit was a complete success, and it
became evident that the roads in the region
are turning into dongas and that bridges
were
being
washed
away.
This
therefore
means that urgent and quick attention is
necessary
improve
to
restore
the
lives
roads
in
of
our
order
to
people,
11 October 2001
Page 215 of 225
particularly the rural and the poorest of
the poor.
Nevertheless,
the
Committee
is
satisfied
that it had attained most of the objectives
of its visit to the Eastern Cape.
THURSDAY, 11 OCTOBER 2001
ANNOUNCEMENTS:
National
Assembly
and
National
Council
of
Provinces:
1.
The Speaker and the Chairperson:
(1) The
Minister
for
Provincial
and
Local
Government withdrew the following Bill on
11 October 2001:
(i) Disaster Management Bill [B 58 - 2001]
(National Assembly - sec 76).
11 October 2001
(2) The
Page 216 of 225
Minister
Affairs
for
submitted
Herroeping
van
Agriculture
the
die
and
Wetsontwerp
Wet
op
Suikerrietkwekersvereniging
op
die
[W
Land
die
KwaZulu
48
-
2001]
(National Assembly - sec 75) to the Speaker
and
the
This
is
KwaZulu
Repeal
Chairperson
the
official
Cane
Bill
on
48
October
translation
Growers'
[B
11
-
2001.
of
Association
2001]
the
Act
(National
Assembly - sec 75), which was introduced in
the National Assembly by the Minister on 23
August 2001.
(3) The
Joint
Tagging
Mechanism
(JTM)
on
11
October 2001 in terms of Joint Rule 160(2),
classified
the
following
Bill
as
a
constitution amendment Bill (section 74):
(i) Constitution of the Republic of South
Africa Second Amendment Bill
[B 78
2001] (National Assembly - sec 74).
National Council of Provinces:
1.
The Chairperson:
-
11 October 2001
Page 217 of 225
Bills passed by National Council of Provinces
on
11
October
2001:
To
be
submitted
to
President of the Republic for assent:
(i) Counterfeit Goods Amendment Bill
[B 27
-
2001] (National Assembly - sec 75).
(ii)Trade
Practices
Amendment
Bill
[B
34
-
2001] (National Assembly - sec 75).
(iii)Agricultural
Research
Amendment
Bill
[B
25B - 2001 (Reprint)] (National Assembly sec 75).
2.
The Chairperson:
Message
from
National
Assembly
to
National
Council of Provinces:
Bills passed by National Assembly on 11 October
2001 and transmitted for concurrence:
(a) Financial Intelligence Centre Bill [B 1B 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75).
11 October 2001
Page 218 of 225
The Bill has been referred to the Select
Committee
on
Finance
of
the
National
Council of Provinces.
(b) Repeal of Volkstaat Council Provisions Bill
[B 59 - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75).
The Bill has been referred to the Select
Committee
on
Local
Government
and
Administration of the National Council of
Provinces.
3.
The Chairperson:
The following papers have been tabled and are
now
referred
to
the
relevant
committees
as
mentioned below:
(1) The
following
Select
paper
Commmittee
on
is
referred
Labour
and
to
the
Public
Enterprises:
Report
of
the
Auditor-General
on
the
Financial Statements of the South African
11 October 2001
Page 219 of 225
Telecommunications Regulatory Authority for
1 April 2000 to 30 June 2000 [RP 109-2001].
(2) The following papers are referred to the
Select
Committee
on
Education
and
Recreation:
(a) Report
of
the
Auditor-General
on
the
Financial Statements of the High School
Vorentoe
Disaster
Fund
for
the
year
ended 31 March 2001 [RP 87-2001].
(b) Report
of
the
Auditor-General
on
the
Financial Statements of the Foundation
for
Education,
Science
and
Technology
for the year ended 31 March 2000 [RP
116-2001].
(3) The following papers are referred to the
Select Committee on Public Services:
(a) Report
of
Financial
the
Auditor-General
Statements
of
the
on
the
National
11 October 2001
Page 220 of 225
Supplies Procurement Fund for the year
ended 31 March 2000 [RP 114-2001].
(b) Report
of
Financial
the
Auditor-General
Statements
of
on
the
the
Urban
Transport Fund for the year ended 31
March 2000 [RP 90-2001].
(4) The following papers are referred to the
Select
Committee
on
Security
and
Constitutional Affairs:
(a) Report
of
the
Auditor-General
on
the
Special Review of the Deposit Account
Administered
by
the
Department
of
Justice and Constitutional Development
and Related Matters [RP 100-2001].
(b) Report and the Financial Statements of
the Department of Correctional Services
for 2000-2001, including the Report of
the
Auditor-General
Statements
of
Vote
on
6
the
-
Financial
Correctional
Services for 2000-2001 [RP 148-2001].
11 October 2001
Page 221 of 225
(5) The following papers are referred to the
Select Committee on Finance:
(a) Report
of
the
Auditor-General
on
the
Financial Statements of the President's
Fund for the year ended 31 March 2001
[RP 99-2001].
(b) Report
of
the
Financial
Auditor-General
Statements
of
on
the
the
State
President's Fund for the financial year
ended 31 March 2001 [RP 97-2001].
(c) Report and Financial Statements of the
Development
Bank
of
Southern
Africa
Limited for 2000-2001.
(d) Report of the Executive Officer of the
Financial
Services
Board
on
the
Road
Accident Fund for 1999-2000.
(6) The following papers are referred to the
Select Committee on Social Service:
11 October 2001
(a) Report
Page 222 of 225
of
Financial
the
Auditor-General
Statements
of
on
the
the
Health
Donations Fund for the year ended 31
March 2001 [RP 96-2001].
(b
Report
of
Financial
Relief
the
Auditor-General
Statements
Fund
for
year
of
on
the
ended
the
Social
31
March
2000 [RP 95-2001].
(c) Report
of
Financial
the
Auditor-General
Statements
of
the
on
the
Refugee
Relief Fund for the year ended 31 March
2001 [RP 94-2001].
(7) The following papers are referred to the
Select Committee on Economic Affairs:
(a) Report
of
the
Auditor-General
on
the
Financial Statements of the Independent
Development Trust (Main Fund) for the
year ended 31 March 2000 [RP 76-2001].
11 October 2001
Page 223 of 225
(b) Report and Financial Statements of the
Department of Minerals and Energy for
2000-2001, including the Report of the
Auditor-General
on
the
Statements of Vote 29
-
Financial
Minerals and
Energy for 2000-2001 [RP 172-2001].
(8) The
following
paper
Select
Committee
on
Select
Committee
on
is
referred
to
the
to
the
Government
and
Finance
Local
and
Administration:
The
Intergovernmental
Fiscal
Review
for
2001 [RP 174-2001].
(9) The
following
Select
paper
Committee
Monitoring
on
Committee
is
referred
Finance,
on
to
the
the
Joint
Improvement
of
Quality of Life and Status of Women and to
the
Joint
Monitoring
Committee
on
Improvement of Quality of Life and Status
of Children, Youth and Disabled Persons:
11 October 2001
Report
Page 224 of 225
and
Presidency
Financial
for
Statements
2000-2001,
of
the
including
the
Report of the Auditor-General on Financial
Statements of Vote 1 - Presidency for 20002001 [RP 168-2001].
(10)The following papers are referred to the
Select
Committee
on
Local
Government
and
Administration:
(a) Report and Financial Statements of the
Department
of
Public
Service
and
Administration for 2000-2001, including
the
Report
of
the
Auditor-General
on
the Financial Statements of Vote 24 Public
Service
and
Administration
for
2000-2001 [RP 15-2001].
(b) Report and Financial Statements of the
South
African
Management
Development
Institute for 2000-2001, including the
Report
of
the
Auditor-General
on
Financial Statements for 2000-2001.
the
11 October 2001
Page 225 of 225
(c) Report and Financial Satements of the Public
Service Commission for 2000-2001, including the
Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements for 2000-2001 [RP 128-2001].