17:50 PST, 10/16/2002
Tore
Jozef Vida
He was a very good hammer thrower in the 80s he was a 3 turner threw just south
of 80meters very nice guy he was coached by Pal they all were initially Fazekas
Annus but they split of and started a second club And Vida is the Coach. Not qas
tough training wise compare to coach Pal were Tibor is and Zolt Nemeth the son of
the coach.
Tore
17:55 PST, 10/16/2002
Tore
Fazekas video
I have a video that robert left at my house 3 years ago with lots of training 2 hrs
only problem it came from his camera and its not 8mm its slightly thicker. I figured
I would just keep it but maybe I should, I will call him first dont have a clue what he
got on that tape might bre intresting
Tore
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LAST POST IS 919
19:26 PST, 05/17/2002
Tore
Fazekas
Used to stay with me in San Jose and train a few weeks here and there 6'4" around
235-240 but pretty strong for his weight snatch from hang 185kg-190kg around
420lbs
hang cleans 235-240kg around 530lbs bench about the same
funny thing cant squat.
Really nice guy say hi from me and have him give me a call
Tore
17:16 PST, 10/23/2001
Tore
Hammer
http://209.170.226.213/cgi-bin/kcarr/discmes.cmd?file=20011023171614
I would be somewhat carefull about some things being said in regards to falling
backwards and off ballance.
If you are off ballance the natural reaction is to pull in on the radius to pull back to
ballance. As for orbit shape it needs to be longest in the throwing direction 180 and
shortest at 0 otherways you will not be able to accelerate through the circel Litvinov
is a 4 turner dont compare with 3 turner it is a totally different way of throwing.
There is always going to be more movment "falling back" in the first 2 turns for
smaller 4 turn throwers to generate speed compare Litvinov to Astapkovitch or
kevin to Judd.
As for Abduvalyev his knock as for his technique was always that his left shoulder
was pulling on the ball therefor having to much weight on his left leg towards turn
3and 4 were this would cause his low point to drift towards his left side unabeling
him to agressivley accelerate without drastically shortening the radius in the last
turn causing him to have a release much like my friend Mr Logan.
I would not try to copy that
My advise is if it doesnt make sense why its done its either a personal style not
improving distance or a technical flaw.
There are many great throwers with bad technique.
Again this is my own opinion and therefor should be evaluated critically.
Tore
Tore
17:15 PST, 10/19/2001
Hammer think before implementing
http://209.170.226.213/cgi-bin/kcarr/discmes.cmd?file=2001101917157
I was reading the ring today going back over the last couple of days and I find it
very frusterating when I hear some of the discussion granted I was never a star but
training on my own with no Coach you learned the hard way.
What is this talk about accelerate the hammer Down THAT IS JUST CRAZY if you
try to accellerate down you can only push with your body weight or your feet will
come of the ground
AN EXACT example would be latt pull down pu on more weight than your own and
you hang in the air that is the laws of physics.
YOU drop down hanging in the ball it is a vertical drop just like Sedykh that is his
throw he lands deep and accellerates up in dubbel support better than anybody.
The key to his throw is the position at 180 degrees where his body is perpendicular
to the hammer and arms
when his right comes down his hip is in a power position (very much like the finnish
of the second pull in an olympic lift. As for him not trying to drop it is the wrong
word he is trying to keep preassure on the ball and in doing so he has to drop.
Dont overlook the importance of keeping the hammer shoulder triangle that is why
most 200-230 footers never develop, the hammer can only be so far behind you and
it will slow you down and shorten the radius.Hammer is ACCELLERATED
GRADUALY smoothly (if you catch a 20 lbs fish with a 5 lbs line and you start
pulling you loose the fish same with the hammer) Think DS long and sweeping
and SS short and agressive
Most comon difference between good and bad throwers is the time ratio between DS
and SS.
AS for foot down early in general
3 turners use torque to throw far
meaning more up down and foot down early and big release, steeper orbit
4 turners more rotational flat orbit
not depending on big finnish but more on rotational speed not much up and down
There are always exceptions like
Astapkovitch Tamm Nikulin to name a few.
Tore
10:57 PST, 10/09/2001
Tore
hammer changes +why must be in Stadium
The hammer will eventually change I think it would be the same results as the
javelin, were it really got people excited with new world records on a weekly basis.
As for what to change in my own humble opinion you cant touch the length of the
implement that would be a disaster, the reason why is it would change the angle of
the throw and people would start throwing over the cage.Max angle today is 37-43
degrees with a shorter wire it would get up to 50 and much more inaccyracy with
throwing.
In my opinion the weight should be increased to 9kg-10kg were the length could be
decreased an inch very hard to throw 9 kg regular length without hitting circel.
This would make the world record come down to 70-73 meter 9kg 65-68 meter 10kg.
This to me is the only acceptabel change
As for moving out of the stadium it would kill the event, you would see absolutley no
sponsors no and appearance fees in some countries the hammer is the main event
they would rather move other events out.
Now this is my opinion I know other throwers from Europe have same opinions
Tore.
12:17 PST, 09/21/2001
Tore
Fernholm reality
http://209.170.226.213/cgi-bin/kcarr/discmes.cmd?file=20010921121723
First of all I knew him as a friend and team mate for 20 years we lived together inm
Utah so I do qulify as first hand observer .
Uchy dont ever talk about him like that again, I you were I would kick your ass.
You are talking about somebody that you never knew and you only have 2nd hand
info from people that did not know him that includes coaches from BYU.
As for BFS he built the company and was screwed by the sheppards of this world I
did a clinic with him Sheppard was there the way we trained was nothing like the
BFS would want you to think Phat Man kows that since he had contact with both
me and Stefan more so with Fernholm.
His best lifts were:
High 800 squat
Clean 460
snatch 350
vertical 38-39 inches
40 yard 4.32
over head shot 77 feet
Stefan was a rotational shot putter comp PR 19.99 threw 70 feet in training spring
of 1982 broke his navicular bone in his left wrist and had surgery shot career over.
Started to throw discus in 83 qualified for LA games 84.
Stefan threw 69.96 in Sweden but result was not rectified due to a low spot in the
field at 200 feet ( same place Powell threw his big throw)
Stefan died in his home in Sweden due to degenerated heart disease which was
hereditary there was a big investigation and this was the conclusion.
Dont fuck with his memory some of us will protect his name no matter what,
because he was a great thrower, friend and father that is deeply missed by all his
friends from around the world.
Side note the person that left BYU in his corvette 1987 2 weeks prior to NCAA was
not Fernholm it was Soren Talhem and it was due to a personal problem in his
native Sweden.
Tore
20:24 PST, 09/20/2001
Tore
Andrei
I dont know where every body is getting this 5'11 from .
I spent some time with him in Gerece 1990 it was Andrei , Greg Tafralis, Dave Laut
and I. He was 6'1 + . Greg on the other hand was short 5'11 but heavy over 300lbs
when he hit his PB 21.98 in Los Gatos.
philj
16:35 PST, 09/06/2001
Russian Hammer training (long post)
http://209.170.226.213/cgi-bin/kcarr/discmes.cmd?file=20010906163545
Just wanted to share some information I have garnered about the Russian's
Hammer Training programs over the years. I am particularly interested in training
methods, as opposed to significant technical evaluation. Don't think I regard
technique as unimportant, but it is interesting to see similar performances from
very different techniques. The similarity between Yuri Sedykh and Lance Deal is
very strong in the element of training method, and yet their expression of technique
is quite different.
I would also like to know if anyone has trained with this method, and what effect it
has had on their performances.
Based on information provided by GLM, it seems the Russian's discovered in the
70s that many of their throwers were not throwing very far relative to how strong
they are. Research into this problem showed that this was a result of training like
lifters, and training the max. and absolute strength separate from the lifting.
Zaitchuk proposes his training is meant to address this problem.
It seems Zaitchuk basically sets up training schedules something similar to the
following:# Calisthenics style warm-up and stretching
# Sprinting type exercises (stride outs, acceleration runs, sprints)
# Some multi-turns with the hammer (start with swings, without swings, gyros
(Lance drill), etc.)
# Throws at 50-70% training max. alternating between Light and normal.
# Some maximal throws
# Lifting exercises: (probably only one exercise here in Zaitchuk's scheme)
- Legs strengthening (Step-ups or lunges or one legged squats, etc.)
- Back strengthening (stiff leg deadlift or good mornings, etc.)
# Throws at 3-5 m less than earlier training max. alternating between heavy and
normal.
# Jumping exercises: Standing long jumps or bounds or triple jumps
# Twisting exercises: walk twists
# Kettle bell (Pud) throws:
What is particularly interesting is the way training is monitored to avoid over
training. You do this training each day on a two days on and one off, or three on
and one off. The intensity of the lifting is set after the max. throws depending on the
outcome of the throwing you do after the lifting (for example if you cannot throw
within 3-5 m of the training max. after the lifting, it was too hard.) You set the
volume of the throwing after the lifting by the training result the next day. If it
decreases by more than 1.5 m then there was too much volume in the heavy/normal
throwing session. When your performances level off, it is time to change the
hammer weights, and the exercises. This approach is very specific and is completely
different than periodized training. Lance also monitors his training in a similar way,
where weights are cut back if performances in the hammer are dropping. He
essentially used it as a method to detect fatigue.
Another example was provided by Bondarchuk to an Australian 70m Hammer
thrower who has strength levels of Snatch 120k, Power Clean 165k, Squat 270k.
Day 1
* 9k hammer x 16 throws
* 15k plate x 15 forward throws
* 15k plate easy throws to left
Day 2
* 7.26k hammer x 10 throws
* 6k hammer x 10 throws
* Plate twists (Sedykh twists) 40k, 4 x 10
* Straight leg deadlift (bar not to touch the ground) 120k, 5 x 3
* Step ups 90k 2 x 5
Day 3
* REST
My discussions with Yuri during his visit to NZ also indicated the strength displayed
by the Australian thrower would be good for 75-80m.
Lance Deal's training also seems to be similar, something like the following:* Throw; different weight hammers
* Lift; one exercise of each; pull, squat, jump, twist/ab
By lifting integrated with your throwing, and avoiding lifting too heavy you prevent
overloading the system, and compromising your technical training.
A Russian formula which calculated the distance thrown based on specific measures
of strength, indicated Yuri would throw ~76m, however he was actually throwing
84m+ which worked out to be a coefficient (as the Russians called it) of 1.1. This
clearly suggests the importance of throwing and specific strength as related to
performance. It also suggests the Western method of training does appear to be
more focused on improving Weight lifting strength.
Additionally the Russians recommend 10,000 throws per year, which works out to
be about 200+ per week. This is a lot of throwing with the hammer which is why
many throws are at lower intensity, but attempting to combine this with weight
lifting puts extreme load on an individual. I do not think this style of training would
necessarily apply directly to the other throws events.
References:
1991 visit to New Zealand by Yuri Sedykh and Anatoliy Bondarchuk
1991 Aussie Thrower Magazine Vol. 6 No. 2
1998 visit to New Zealand by Lance Deal
1998 my visit to Eugene, Oregon to train with Lance Deal and Stuart Togher
2000 July The Ring Posting by Lance
2000 September The Ring Posting 1 by GLM
2000 September The Ring Posting 2 by GLM
2001 August The Ring Posting by Shaun P (of particular note the element of
maximum power output being at 45% of 1RM)
2001 September personal e-mail discussion with GLM
I have deliberately avoided providing the names of The Ring posters, they may wish
to divulge their names, if you don't know them already.
11:48 PST, 07/09/2001
Tore
Hammer Throwing
http://209.170.226.213/cgi-bin/kcarr/discmes.cmd?file=20010709114850
It seems that most people consider countering only when the ball is low or in dubbel
support. Why dont anybody talk about the countering in single support much
moore important in the way I consider good technique. That is what makes the
throw aggressive and powerfull If the upper body is not perpendicular to the ball in
the last turn at high point and the R knee leading the throw you are missing all the
power. Dubbel support countering is easy keep more weight on the Right leg when
making contact put preassure against the circel with it and close the space between
the knees when you go threw the dubbel support. But the power comes from how
aggressive you are when coming into single support. I really liked Kevins throws
when Tibor was here he was very close to getting it all together. I hope things are
going well Kevin I will be in Edmonton to scream for you and Adam
Tore
13:18 PST, 07/06/2001
Track Mutant
pushing with Tibor
http://209.170.226.213/cgi-bin/kcarr/discmes.cmd?file=20010706131846
Luke:
Tibor is an excellent example of pusshing through all four turns. I fist saw him
throw in 1985 and I believe just last week he went over 80 meters. He is someone
who is constantly pushing the right side through the throw.
From my observation only, I saw Tibor push the hammer and Tore lock the ball in
position. I to this day have never seen anyone lock the ball in position the way Tore
does.
I really like your comments. You are taking pieces of information from a lot of
"experts" and putting them together for what works for you. When you can do this,
you will reach the next level. When you can explain it in terms of what you are
feeling you will go one level beyond that.
It was seven years in between the time I threw 199'7" and the first time I broke 200'.
The journey was long and tedious. However, looking at it now, I realize that the
199'7" was the best I could be at that time, and throwing 200' plus was a level that I
had achieved with seven more years of work.
For me I had to take the knowledge I had, learn some more, apply practicle
experience, teach it to others, practice some more, make it second nature, and then
be able to bring it together on game day. For me that process took seven years. For
you it should not be that long.
Where are you staying?
Working with Kevin can only bring good things. He is one of the few with a ture
understanding of the hammer throw.
Ken
Tore
11:38 PST, 01/10/2001
http://209.170.226.213/cgi-bin/kcarr/discmes.cmd?file=20010110113855
I thought I would change Direction.
When I started throwing Our Nationals was won with throws in the 190 range so it
seemed like an easy way to make the National team. there was no coaching what so
ever but there was a few guys that started training hard at the age of 15-17 in the
spring of 77. We spent our time whatching films and throwing the hammer almost
every day contrary to other swedes. in the summer 77 we got a visit from
Bondarchuk a Seydich they came out and spent 2 weeks with us. What we learned
in those two weeks was the basic for every hammer thrower training in the Country.
Within a year the results was dramatically improving on every body. The #1 change
we made was moving out of the weight room. In 77 we had people out lifting Seydich
with throwing PRs at 175 feet. We spent 70% of our time throwing the hammer or
similar implements up from around 30-40 % the previus year. Throwers from
around the country met once a month for a weekend of training were we all talked
about our training. In doing so we developed a generic system that every body
followed with sligth abreviations.
The one thing every body did was throwing with implements much lighter than the
comp. hammers ( we also did throw with above comp weight). The % of light vs
heavy was around 70/30. There was a dramatic switch were within 2 years we had
18-20 year olds on the National Team the older guys Quite once they got beat by a
18 year olds. The amount of throws taken /week for this group of 18-20 year olds
was around 200-400 these # might seem really high but this was a group of very
motivated people. We threw both outdoors in the snow and indoors into a canvas
throws were done with normal hammers and with chains of diff. weights ( chains
worked very well outdoors in the winter since they did not bounce 400 feet on the
ice). I belive that the volume of throws gave us a very solid basic technique were
over the long time improvments could be made. In the yers to follow from this group
of 8 juniors we got me at 263, Kjell Bystedt 258,Stefan Jonsson 248, Fred
Schumacher 242, Juha Packalen 238, Hakan Aberg 237 and 2 more guys over 230.
No one had a Coach with any previous hammer experience some had no coach at all.
There was not a selection of talent to qualify when the group started and I would go
out to say that none of us had that great of athletic talent. Kjell and I spoke ones
about what we thought it would take to throw 80 m and both of us belived that you
had to be an awsome athlete Kjell thought of himself as the worst athlete of all of us
with no talent what so ever looking back I tend to agree with him. The 1 thing that
made Kjell and I throw far was the abillity to beat the crap out of us every day and
come back for more the second day. There were days when we trained together and
threw 200 throws in a day and coming back for a dubbel workout the next day.
We never had any expectations but neither did we have respect for big throws or
hard work.
The friendships and the ride was every minute of pain.
Tore
Tore
10:31 PST, 12/13/2000
http://209.170.226.213/cgi-bin/kcarr/discmes.cmd?file=20001213103114
I think its time to talk about throwing after reading some of the crap as of late.
The results in the weight seems to keep improving but when spring comes around its
the same story WHY?
It seems that most collegiates treat the weight as a different event while the
Europeans use the weight to increase their speciffic strength.
The jump between the weight and the hammer is to big (mainly its length and
weight)it would make sense to transition both ways in the fall and in the spring with
implements that are in between.
I speak pretty regularly with the top Europeans on the phone and just from my own
experience the weight should be thrown just like the hammer.Why is it that a 75 fot
weight throw with 2 turns will only give you a 220 hammer throw.
I think lengthening the weight in training with 6-8" and having a variety of weights
and throwing them with the same techn. as the hammer. Use the normal 35 for a few
throws during the workout but dont spend 4 months throwing the thing in the fall.
If you look over seas you see the use of heavy hammers year around in doing so
there will not be a change in technique with the 35.They also throw lots of throws
with a ligth ball especially when PRs are around 230 or so. But in the US you throw
the 35 in the winter and the 16 in the spring.
I am intrested to hear from some Coaches why they keep going down this path when
its been proven for 20 years that it leads no where.
Two of the best US throwers in history never even threw the weight
Bill Green and Ken Flax they were also the best technicians that if any should tell
you that 4 months of weight throwing will harm you more than help you with the 16
in the spring.
Remember this is my opinion and should not be taken seriously.
Tore
Tore
11:11 PST, 09/19/2000
http://209.170.226.213/cgi-bin/kcarr/discmes.cmd?file=20000919111145
I got will try to explain the right leg (r handed thrower).
The first wined should be over right side reach back with R elbow and push
hammer across to left side 2nd wined should be more in the middle. The entry
should be made by pushing the hammer out over the left side with the Right side
foot knee hip so as to close down the space between knees in entry before right leg
comes of the ground. How many times have I heard to sling the ball with arms out
over left side? US thrower do that end result is that the Right leg and hip never gets
involved in the throw every thing ends up on the right side and no weight on the
right leg in susequent turns and therfore zero acceleration.
The right hip must stay with the ball thats why positioning of the right leg becomes
very important. When it comes of the ground the knee comes up but the foot must
stay slightly behind the left leg remember the left heel and leg is the rotational acces
so the further away the foot is from the center the more energy is needed to keep it
in.The right foot stays in this position while the transfer of left goes from heel to toe,
as soon as thrower gets on left toe the left knee should be dropped toward ground by
way of driving right hip towards the ball right foot will automatically make contact
preferably flat footed in the first 2 turns.
The right leg should never come around in a circel.
Tore
Tore
11:32 PST, 09/19/2000
The reason people have problem with this drill is more than likely this. The hips
cant be back in a pike position in the turn you than make the radius from the waist
to the ball and after the turn is completed and the wined starts you just end up
piking more and more in each turn. stay more upright and it becomes very easy. I
had the same problem but ones you get the idea I went from 210 feet to throwing
245+ with the drill of 1 wined 1 turn 1 wined 3 turns.
Tore
Dennis Kline
18:48 PST, 09/19/2000
http://209.170.226.213/cgi-bin/kcarr/discmes.cmd?file=2000091918481
C. Epalle says 10% in distance/kg
(e.g. 5k @ 80m, then 6k @ 72m)
Logan says 2 lbs is 5m.
(e.g. (training)16 @ 75m, then 14 @ 80m
I agree with both Logan and Epalle after further review of the diaries.
The 30ft differential that Tore mentions refers to the training 14 and the comp. 16
???
The differential between the training 16 and the comp. 16 is 2-4m.
The differential is much more accurate and predictable for the light balls than the
heavy balls!
COMMENTS...
Pete
12:43 PST, 09/15/2000
http://209.170.226.213/cgi-bin/kcarr/discmes.cmd?file=20000915124319
How do light hammers actually help someone get more speed. Yes I know you can
turn faster with a lighter hammer, but how does that translate to the competition
weight.
If someone learns to turn the 18# hammer fast enough to throw it as far as their PR
with the 16#, then I would think that they would be able to throw the 16# even
farther. So it would seem that throwing the heavier hammer would help with speed.
This whole idea of using light hammers to get speed has me confused, I just don't
quite see it. I'm not saying that it's not true just that I'm not getting it.
It makes sense to me what someone describe Nikulin (sp) did. Use the light hammers
as a yardstick as to what was to come. Then build up strength so that you can throw
that distance with the heavier impliment.
I'm really trying to figure this out, what do you all think? Much of what Bill Green
has said he did and how he wished he had used the heavy hammers more makes
sense also...So what's the best approach? Tore any input here?
Peter McCutcheon
Tore
16:04 PST, 09/15/2000
http://209.170.226.213/cgi-bin/kcarr/discmes.cmd?file=20000915160447
The light Vs Heavy should be Light and Heavy When and How?
To throw far one needs rotational speed in order to do that you must turn fast
therfor use a light ball. One needs to be able to throw far depending on ones Future
goals wether 80+meters or 30+meters. A 200 foot thrower should be able to throw
260-270 feet with the 4k. The most important thing when it comes to light balls is
that you cant throw them like your regular implement, Yo start very slow and
emphasis is on increase of speed between each turn. You want to improve
acceleration that is what hammer throwing is all about.Ex thrower A starts very fast
and gets minimum increase of speed result will be right foot will make contact when
the hammer is past 270 degrees resulting in a short dubbel support in the release.
Thrower B starts slow and have great acceleration especially in last turn he will
make contact very early with right leg and have a very long dubbel support and
hammer is at 190degrees .A will have no release B will be able to use all of his leg
strength over a much greater time. If you start fast with a light hammer you will
ruin the little techniqe you have, only a handful of people in the world can throw the
light ball hard from start to finnish. Heavy hammer should be used just like Bill
said to improve speciffic strength most elite throwers spend much more time with
the heavy balls , but as young the threw lots with light ones. US throwers need to
have more distance between the sixteen and the ligt ones,(im talking about the
230group and lower)they are technicall unsound it show with the light balls instead
of starting slow and concentrating on acceleration they skip the light balls and go
staight for the heavy ones and end up getting stuck at 230 if they hang in there for
that long.
Bill Green had a post awhile back that was intresting (his other posts are too) were
he talked about his results with the 14# beeing 285 saying that = more of 265 with
the 16# and he lsao threw that in training I belive. I dont know what his 18# was but
I can guess it I bet it was somwhere around 237? He is a perfect example of lacking
speciffic strength work with heavy balls, that would have been the next step in his
training if I was his coach. My own experience was totally wrong I started throwing
heavy balls at a young age and laso got very strong in the weight room and
struggeld for along time with light hammers I threw 250 with the 18# and 233 with
the 20# I finally got the 14# up to 295. My way was way to hard. I spent 15 years Bill
spent 5 1/2.I also had 8 knee surgeries and 2 ankle 4 ruptured discs and a stress
fracture.
Tore
To tired for spell check
Bill Green
16:37 PST, 09/15/2000
http://209.170.226.213/cgi-bin/kcarr/discmes.cmd?file=20000915163739
Tore, I am sorry to say I never had any of this musical hammer stuff down. In
hindsight, I realize now that it was a huge mistake not throw BOTH heavy and light,
but just as importantly that I was in error in not throwing multiple hammers in the
same session. Art and I were sort of figuring things out on our own in the first few
years, and after European training methods started to become clearer to Americans
in the middle 1980's the competitiveness with Stewart's program isolated us a bit
too.
Regarding your question, amazingly, I dont know what my 18lb best was because
literally-and I mean literally-I NEVER threw the 18. I probably only threw 50-60
35lb weight throws ever as well, as in Southern California we had no weather
problems.
Also, since I never experimented with multiple weight hammers in the same session
to any degree, the 14>16 conversion I outlined as 285>245 was weeks apart. My best
training days ever were back-to-back at 81m right before retiring, but were months
away from light hammer training. I truly dont know what my conversions were
from one hammer to the other, because I never saw comparable distances in the
same session.
So I have a question for you. Your PR was roughly 80m I believe, and your best
with the 14 was 295', so does this mean you consider the normal 14>16 differential
to be 30'? Since retiring and learning of my mistake, I have always assumed that my
40' dropoff was unusually bad, and concluded that this was because of the lack of
light AND heavy hammer training, and in the same session. I am curious re your
viewpoint.
Tore
17:06 PST, 09/15/2000
http://209.170.226.213/cgi-bin/kcarr/discmes.cmd?file=20000915170613
There are 2 awnsers since i take my training distance with the 14# I should do the
same with the 163it was 270+ unfortunatley I got injured prior to improving my
meet results. The other thing is that ones you would have started to throw the heavy
balls in training your 16# would have improved drastically but so would the 14# not
as much but considerably. I think after hearing that you never threw the 18# or
anything heavy I am guaranteeing that you would have been over 300 with the 14.
Now make your 25-30 fot conversion.
I stand pretty firm on those #just by knowing others conversions Some people have
a slight diffrent conversion depending on what they train. I feel pretty confident that
no American have thrown 300 with 14# ball.
Tore
Tore
01:13 PST, 09/14/2000
http://209.170.226.213/cgi-bin/kcarr/discmes.cmd?file=20000914011358
My take is that I have to agree with Todd C and Big Bill Green.Lance have a very
bad left leg (left handed )and he knows it I have talked to him about it. He does
however have very good radius and rythm, if he get his left leg down early the
hammer goes a long ways.
Kevin is a great athlete and lives on speed and countering much in the way
described by Bill attacking going into the first turn and backing away at 0. His lack
of body weight limits him so if he is not exactly on as far as centerd and rythm he
cant muscle it.
Jud is Jud all I can say is in 92 he was awsome and really got screwed. Every body
was scared of what he would do in the final after watching him in the qualifying.
The problem Us hammer throwers have is that there is no one with a good generic
techniqe around such as an old Bill Green or Ken Flax (hate to say his name)
As for the debate something that has not been said regarding dropping is that dont
get the wrong impression that you are suposed to get lower in each turn to the
contrary you should not go lower than what you enter with in the firs turn. If you
watch closely lets say Youri his head does not drop ever drop below what it was at
the entry of the first turn.What happens is as his leg bends more in each turn he als
oget higher up on his foot where in the last turn only top of his toes are in contact
with ground but his hips are higher than in the start. The reason is pure physics the
hammer will slow down it takes to much time in single support. wiewing from the
side your head should look like its moving up a set of stairs 1 step for each turn.
When in single support the hips should be perpendicular to the arms and hammer
wire that is what causes the drop because you go up on your toes on the pivoting
foot.
Working with Gecesk for the last couple of years many nights have been spent
talking tecnique he tries to establish a long radius in the first 2 turns by bending at
the waist so well illustrated by Todd Cs picture and than attacking the ball with
amore vertical acceleration in the last 2 turns
main focus is on closing the space between his knees in dubbel support by driving
with his right hip,knee and foot.And attacking with his right hip more like a high
jumper in single support in last 2 turns.
One more point and I will be done. Dont ever bring the right foot past the left it
should always stay behind the left leg the knee will go past but only the knee. That is
a very common problem with US throwers their right leg has a cicular path its way
to slow.
Tore
Tore
01:28 PST, 09/14/2000
http://209.170.226.213/cgi-bin/kcarr/discmes.cmd?file=20000914012858
Just because Lance have a bad left leg that doesnt mean I dont think he will
compete for the Gold. He is definetley one of my favorites and it would not suprise
me if he wins.
So good luck to you Kevin and Jud
Its almost time to start the Games
Tore
Pete
06:22 PST, 09/14/2000
http://209.170.226.213/cgi-bin/kcarr/discmes.cmd?file=20000914062235
I have to echo Norms words, excellent observation of American throwers. If I read
you right what you are saying is that some throwers try to have there feet lined up
at the zero point. So when the turn is complete and the hammer is at zero the
throwers toes are lined up. You could draw a line across them.
Norm I have seen elite throwers do this also, so unfortunately it's not just beginners.
I also think that it's not just because of the discus, but I think well meaning coaches
have actually taught that the feet should line up. It's one of those things that people
think just makes sense. In other words in looks kind-of weird or wrong to have one
foot set back behind the other, but that's exactly what occurs if you are really good
at getting back into DS early.
With the exception of my first few years in HS I have not had my feet line up since.
In fact I find that feels very strange to me and if the by chance do line up I'm all
messed up. My right toe usually lines up with my left heel, I'm right handed.
I think the motto of this story is that a thrower needs to do what they can to get
back into DS as soon as possible. Of course without robbing from the entry of the
turn.
Peter McCutcheon
Bill Green
10:07 PST, 09/14/2000
http://209.170.226.213/cgi-bin/kcarr/discmes.cmd?file=20000914100758
Hey Tore, I'll take what appeared to be a compliment on my "good generic
technique"-certainly dont profess to have been a standard setter in that category.
And I dont mind being mentioned in the same breath with Ken Flax regarding form
either, as he has probably been our best elite technician to-date.
It is probably true that the U.S. has still not yet produced any truly great
technicians in the hammer, at least none that have also thrown far. A prickly
statement, any care to disagree with this?
Oh, and by the way-I still have'nt forgiven you for beating me 253'3" to 253'5" at
Cal State LA in May of 1986. You made it a great one-on-one competition, but took
all the fun out of the PR.
joe
10:46 PST, 09/14/2000
http://209.170.226.213/cgi-bin/kcarr/discmes.cmd?file=20000914104612
i've been reading the posts over the last few days and i'd like to share some
observations, right or wrong as they are.
as far as critics of lance's techniqe, remember: he's got a silver medal (so far). Mr.
Togher once told me that throwing is a "mystic thing" and every thrower finds a
way to throw an implement farther and farther. I don't think particular body
position is as important at the 80m level as it is at the 50 - 60m level. sydych was
sydych because of his body build: his long torso and shorter legs enabled him to
ahieve positions that would drive other throwers into the ground and slow them
down. Lance maintains his middle and his build accounts for part of the
discrepancies in Todd Chamoy's diagram posted over the last couple of days.
As Tore said ( i think), it depends on the athlete focusing on himself. Throwing the
hammer is as much a "feel" event as a technique event. becoming too technical
ruins the dynamic aspects of the throw. This is perhpas, Todd, why you only threw
51m with a 500+ deadlift.
As far as videos go, I through over 12 pr's this year(finally broke 60m), my 7th year
throwing, and i saw only one throw in video at one time during the 10 months of
throwing. I stopped trying to imitate others and began to develop my own feel based
on the concept: long radius, finding and staying in the middle, building speed, and
feeling the pendulum.
for new throwers, film of elite throwers helps them see what the throw COULD look
like, rather than SHOULD look like. i also think film has a limited role in letting
athletes who are not visual learners (this is the teacher in me) see their faults, but
otherwise film is for coaches to debate not athletes to benefit. watching too much
film gets throwers caught in a technical quandary and does SLOW YOU DOWN!
i'm interested in people's comments.
i also need to apologize to paddy magrath for some inappropriate comments i made
about him some time back. i was ill informed and wish him well in his throwing.
joe welch,
tufts university
Tore
13:56 PST, 09/14/2000
http://209.170.226.213/cgi-bin/kcarr/discmes.cmd?file=2000091413567
I would say that your techniqe was very good for the amount of years training and if
I would have changed anything it would simple be you should never have retired
that early. I dont think all the throwing you did with the lite balls was wrong you
just never got a chance to throw with the heavy ones . You spent five years
developing your technique and your speed and were just getting ready to hit it hard
with the heavy balls 2-3 years with them and you would have been the American
Record holder. I have great respect for your and Arts training principle and I think
its very solid even today. I would say that Flax was the best technician hands down
(eventhough me and the Great John Brenner feel the same when we hear that name)
Gecesk has 1 advantage in the entry simillar to Youri eventhough he has 4 turns
they are all heel turns. The concept is to make a very large radius early that means
the ball itself is moving fast but the body is turning slow, in each turn the radius will
decreas as the load increases and more countering will occur, but by doing this you
will get nice rythm and lots of acceleration of the body in each turn. More
acceleration gives possibillity for more torque if the right leg comes down early and
equalls a long finnish 270 degrees or more in dubbel support.
Bill as far as north Ridge If I would have known that was going to be your PR hell I
would have stepped out.
Your Friend Tore
Ringmaster
20:17 PST, 09/14/2000
http://209.170.226.213/cgi-bin/kcarr/discmes.cmd?file=20000914201739
Falx and Tore were bitter enemies in college. They were both throwing 250+, in the
same conference. But the real catalyst was that John Chaplin (WSU coach) and Bill
Dellinger (Oregon coach) absolutely hate aech other. So as dual meets approached
they would whip Kenny ad Tore into a frenzy, and the papers would catch on and
get some great pre-meet quotes.
The one I rememeber was Tore's infamous: "If I saw Flax walking down the street
I'd run him over." Stuff like that.
Then at the meet Flax would go way off down the right sector by himself and stare
at Tore during warmups, etc, point at him after he took throws, etc etc. Tore beat
Ken at PAC-10's but Ken won NC's at 257'. I think think even Ken would agree he
acted like as ass back then but wouldn't apologize for it because that's what e did to
compete and win.
Brenner. When Ken was a freshamn Dellinger put him in a dual meet against
UCLA. Togher hated Venegas, and would do anything to win the "throwers dual".
Brenner was throwing the hammer (canned laugh track here), hoping to score a
point for third place. Flax was there to screw with John's head a bit and try to get
the other Pregon guy into third. So between warmups he takes Brenner's hammer
and walks off with it. Brenner comes up to him and Ken takes off, getting John to
chase him all over the field. I was hilarious The ploy worked.
The next year at NCAA's Ken jumped up on a wooden training table between
throws. As he slid back on the table he caught a six-inch sliver in his butt. After the
competition he had to have it removed at the hospital.
Track Mutant
17:03 PST, 09/14/2000
http://209.170.226.213/cgi-bin/kcarr/discmes.cmd?file=20000914170331
For the rest of you out there who may not have had the advantages that I have seeing these two great athletes throw - listening to them talk back and forth is a
marvelous thing.
Bill Green was the man. The first American over 250'. He was the first person to
combine great power with a modicom of the "new" technique. He started the quest
of getting a few American's up with the rest of the world. Sure there were a few
others (I think he still ranks fifth on the All_time Top American throws list), but
listen to what he is telling you both mentally and technically.
What is the difference between beating the hell out of the ball to 90 degrees versus
letting the ball get to 180 degrees? For most of the athletes it is the difference
between being a good college thrower because you are strong, and having a good
career in throwing because you learn to relax the body and move in conjunction
with the hammer.
The mental aspect of how to throw far is different. By far I mean 250 plus, vs. a
good college thrower 200'+. Throwing far requires a great deal of learning how not
to do those things that your mind thinks it should.
When I went from being a college thrower (consistant 56 - 57 meters) to an open
competitor 62 - 65 meters plus, I learned that in order to throw farther than what I
had been doing, I had to change the way I was thinking. What allows a person to
throw far in the beginning does not usually allow a person to throw far at the end.
(Exception Jud - great power in the beginning led to American record years later by
exploting his strong points.)
Tore, on the other hand, threw / throws with a much different technique than Bill at least to my eye. Yet Tore will stop and work on tecnique with anyone at any level,
and cover just about any technique you feel comfortable using. Tore helped me one
day at Stanford, and many other times at meets, by giving me a slightly different
perspective on how to throw. Out of all the people I have seen throw, when Tore was
on target no one "locked the ball in position" the way Tore did. The position the ball
was in off of the wind into turn one was the same position the ball was in going into
the finish.
Watching Tore practice one day at Stanford, allowed me to see what a truely good
hammer thrower should be able to do. He placed several hammers within about 30
feet of each other. This does not sound like much, but the hammers were all of
different weights (a total of a four pound difference) and there was less than a five
degree difference of where these hammers landed in the sector. (The 7.26 kg
hammers were landing between 240 and 250' without a lot of effort.)
I know a lot of people out there think they have developed great hamer knowledge. I
am one of those people!!!!!!!!!!!! However, I can tell people what it takes to be 5'9"
and weigh just over 200 pounds and throw 65 meters, but I can not say what it takes
to break 250'. I can tell you I think I know. (Hell, I may even tell you I know how to
do it.) But I have never done this. I have never taught someone how to do this.
It is good to question those who have gone before you, what they feel they could
have done differently to throw further, but until you can combine the physical and
mental skills to either do it yourself, or produce someone who has thrown these
distances than attacks are not necessary.
Just one man's opinion.
UC Davis Throws Coach
Ken Norlen
By the way, I feel the women's hammer can be thown with the same technique to a
much greater success than the men's if someone is willing to take the time to learn
how to do it.
I am not as big as some of the women, and questionably I should be stronger, but
from some of the numbers I have heard in the weight room this may not be true.
However, when I was able to get it right and let the 4kg turn me the way a 16 pound
hammer does (it only happened once) the throw was 308'. Only a couple of people
saw it, but consistantly working to sit on the 4kg the way I would a 167 produced
throws constantly over 85 meters from a 65 meter thrower.
Thanks for your time.
Ken
Tore
12:14 PST, 09/05/2000
http://209.170.226.213/cgi-bin/kcarr/discmes.cmd?file=20000905121416
There are many ways to wrap fingers.I used 1 wrap for all fingers doing them
individually.Taz problem is that he holds them Hammer in his hand rather than the
fingers compressing a branch of the median nerve and the proximal phalangeal jt.
Hold the hammer in the last jt. of the fingers and use the right hand to squeese the
left (if R handed )dont squeese the handle with your left hand you will tighten up
your shoulder and loose radius.Let me know if you got any Questions Tore
Tore
11:21 PST, 08/29/2000
http://209.170.226.213/cgi-bin/kcarr/discmes.cmd?file=20000829112142
I had the pleassure of knowing the both Ulf and Udo through a mutual friend. To
say that they were both very humble is an understatement, so if he comes across as
confrontational its only a language barrier.I had several long discussions with my
friend regarding Timmermans and Beyers training what I have read in published
script never correlated to what my friend saw in person
I have spent some time with Adam Nelson this spring and Timmerman would be
very suprised to hear his lifts prior to throwing 22,12 at the trials. Ulf timmerman
would have had the ultimate body for the spinn according to American standards.
To blame John Smith for Timmerman shutting down is stupid Ulf Timmerman will
do what ever he pleases to do. I personally would be intrested to to find out what
him and Udo are doing now.
Tore Gustafsson
Tore
11:12 PST, 08/17/2000
http://209.170.226.213/cgi-bin/kcarr/discmes.cmd?file=20000817111233
I dont understand where all this missinformation is coming from but Glen made the
best point of bogus information being given.I am sitting here and looking at Youris
training program from 1977 which he gave me personally and was translated to
Swedish.It states that he did squats,snatches,and cleans 2x a week and since I saw
him perform this speciffic workout I dont belive anything I read contrary.
Tore
PS GLM I will translate and send Nick one with him when he comes back to school
Tore
20:25 PST, 08/07/2000
Adam goes 21.53 in Malmo sweden for 1st place 2nd Burger Lamberght South
Africa around 19.50 or so. Good work give me a Call Tore
Tore
08:11 PST, 06/08/2000
Tibor Gescek opend with 81,92 for his first meet of the year.