PSU
EMPLOYEE DIRECTORS GROUP
Minutes of the meeting held on 17 November 2004
Beardmore Hotel, Clydebank
Present:
Chris McIntosh – NHS Highland (Chair)
Hugh Sweeney – NHS Lanarkshire
Edwina Cameron – NHS Borders
Gus Gordon – NHS Grampian NHS Board
John Callaghan – NHS Ayrshire and Arran
Bill Goudie – NHS Greater Glasgow
Mandy Robertson – NHS Argyll & Clyde
Mary Flora Conner – NHS Health
Carole Anderson – Golden Jubilee National Hospital
Alan Bickerstaff – Scottish Ambulance Service
Aileen Stewart – NHS National Services Scotland
John Thomson – NHS Tayside
Fiona Dagge-Bell – NHS QIS
Tom Hart – NHS Forth Valley
Claire Brennan – PSU
In attendance: Susie Watson – PSU (Minutes)
1. Apologies
Pat McGlone – The State Hospital
Simon Fevre – NHS Fife
Malcolm Valentine – NHS Education
Kath Pye – NHS Orkney
Morag Nicolson – NHS Western Isles
2. Minute of Previous Meeting
The minute was accepted as an accurate record of the meeting. It was suggested that in future
action points would be distributed, and updates of these issued along with the minutes.
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3. Matters arising
Item 8
Development days for Employee Directors
Feedback from attendees at the training event held on 21/22 September indicated that,
while they found the event interesting, it was non-specific to the Employee Director
agenda, which is what was required and expected by delegates. Useful areas for
inclusion which would have been appreciated included
 Audit
 Finance
 Political skills
 National spending review
 Shared services
 General discussion of the Employee Director role.
It was reported that a follow-up seminar has been arranged for 1 December, at which
these points could be noted.
Suggestions for addressing the lack of a job description centred around “old hands”
assisting with development (shadowing, mentoring, time set aside for Q&A
sessions?), and the benefits of sharing information, e.g. through regional groups.
Claire Brennan will circulate a list of broad headings for a Development Day.
Action: Claire Brennan
It was felt that a list of objectives would be extremely helpful and might include areas
such as
 APFs
 Staff Governance Standard
 Staff Governance Committees
 Embedding partnership working.
Employee Directors are asked to submit any list of objectives they might have. Claire
Brennan will collate these and issue to the group (it was noted that this would also be
useful in the election process).
Action: Employee Directors/Claire Brennan
Item 6
Partnership Conference
John Callaghan and Chris McIntosh attended the Partnership Conference planning
meeting and reported that this event has been moved to October as it was the common
consensus that it followed on too closely from the HRF Conference. A full year’s
planning is envisaged, with the need to include an Employee Directors slot which is
positive but hard-hitting, and designed to sell the role by emphasising that the ED/HR
agendas share much common ground, and would benefit from joint sessions. Again
the disconnection between SPF/HRF and service representation was highlighted.
It was also suggested that Andy Kerr be invited to attend an ED meeting. This would
require a Minute to the Minister, which Claire Brennan will draft up.
Action: Claire Brennan
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4. Employee Director election process
The tabled paper was discussed by the group. It was felt that simplicity was the key and that
a one-page framework should be presented to HRF stating that a minimum standard should
apply. Eligibility information should be emphasised, including
 this should remain a staff side issue
 candidates must be a member of a trade union
 arrangements should be determined locally.
De-selection will be discussed at a later date.
It was agreed to prepare the paper and circulate immediately, along with themes of the
discussion.
Action: Chris McIntosh
5. Shared Services
Aileen Stewart reported on national initiatives being developed under the efficiency policy,
leading to cost savings. SPF is awaiting a business case cost analysis based on updated
figures, which should be available tomorrow. Boards and APFs need to have the issue on
their agendas since there are serious concerns that the basis of the case is flawed. Queries
arose over
 600 job losses/redeployments – no agreements for this
 who pays for and funds the project?
It was agreed that the business case merits careful study and that a communication stating the
true picture should be sought from the joint chairs, John Gallacher and Peter Collings.
Action: Chris McIntosh
It was felt that a stakeholder group with ED representation should be set up where NSS are
looking at governance issues. Aileen agreed to circulate the government paper as soon as
possible.
Action: Aileen Stewart
The group also discussed the implications of new posts to be managed by NSS (procurement
staff – West, North and East regions). Concerns raised included areas relating to local
savings, national/regional/local contracts and costs and benefits being treated separately. It
was queried how centralising sits with Scottish Executive decentralising policy, and the
group worry that NSS could appear to be becoming a great machine running NHSScotland.
6. Membership of OHSSIG/PABS
Of the questionnaires sent out to Chief Executives by the OHS Review Group, only two
Boards mentioned Staff Governance. Employee Directors feel that one way of addressing the
issue would be for them to be involved in the forthcoming regional visits. The EDs also felt
that no information was emerging from groups discussing strategy and implications on
staffing issues – again highlighting disconnection. It was agreed to approach the groups to
nominate two candidates to connect to OHSSIG – Hugh Sweeney and Maryflora Conner.
Action: Hugh Sweeney
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7. Regional groups
Minutes from the East region group are not ready yet, and the North group are facing
geographical difficulties in meeting. West region have met.
Issues under discussion in the regions include
 shared services
 regional planning
 workforce planning
 e-procurement
 pay modernisation
 CHPs
 election processes
It was agreed that, in order to open the flow of communication, regional minutes should be
circulated and there should be no closed groups.
Action: Chairs of regional groups
New EDs would find these groups supportive, and it was explained that they have no decision
making powers, being largely informal discussion groups. Discussion took place around how
the groups were populated – by geographical location of the system’s HQ, by geographical
location of the ED, by type of Board, etc. The general view was that EDs would find it easier
to attend meetings close to their homes.
8. Staff Governance Legislation
Following the distribution of the Tool Kits, the group felt that the pack would also be an
appropriate place for inclusion of other useful documents. Chris McIntosh offered to
circulate a list of appropriate and/or useful documents and publications, including the
presentation paper circulated at the meeting (Chris will e-mail), “Conduct of Employee
Relations” (Gus Gordon will e-mail), and “Making Partnership Working ….” (Claire will email). It was also felt that it would be useful to see each others’ schemes of establishment,
and EDs are asked to circulate these.
Action: Chris McIntosh/Gus Gordon/Claire Brennan/EDs
Discussion followed surrounding a National Health Service Confederation publication and
worries over access to this document as it does not reflect current legislation, and does not
address the staff governance situation regarding CHPs. Claire will take this issue to the Staff
Governance Working Group.
Action: Claire Brennan
Employee Directors felt they should have been invited to the joint HRF/SPF Policy Seminar
as main communicators rather than be brought in at a later stage. They pointed out that there
is no direct link between HRF/SPF and APFs, therefore EDs cannot be considered drivers for
action points.
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The draft National Staff Governance Report was felt to contain broad headings. Some
attendees claimed not to have seen the report, so the PSU will re-distribute it. Feedback from
the SGWG on 23 November will be considered.
Action: PSU
9. Health Service Funding
The group is worried about the effects of funding on staff governance issues . One stream of
governance affects another, and the stress caused by the need to control and administer
funding impacts on staff governance.
The group decided to invite Derek Feeley to speak to them about the national planning
framework in the review of services.
Action: Chris McIntosh
10. Regional Meetings
See item 7.
11. Workforce Design Conference
It is worrying that workforce planning sits outside of the spectrum of the Joint Policy Forum
and the WDC. Feedback is needed from the regions, where there are serious concerns about
downsizing /shedding staff. These groups contain no staff side representation and this shpuld
be addressed. There is also suspicion around the change and innovation link (beware
“regionalisation”!). It was suggested that a lot of the good work done under the Agenda for
Change had not had aspects taken on board.
12. Ongoing Development
An item suggested for the next meeting’s agenda was reintegration, or “life after ED-ship”,
and the complexities of a twin-track PDP reflecting ward/department work and partnership
work (this is both a staff representative and an ED matter).
The group felt that secondment agreements/policies should be explored by the PSU and
addressed in the PIN guidelines.
One suggestion put forward to open career pathways and ease succession planning was for
the PSU to bring in career consultants. Chris will raise this issue with the PSU.
Action: Chris McIntosh
13. Date of next meeting
After much discussion about the problems facing individual EDs in attending meetings due to
clashes in diary commitments, it was agreed to vary meetings between days of the week, to
try to tie in meeting dates with conference attendances and venues, and to alternate venues to
accommodate those travelling from further away.
Dates/venues planned for next year’s meetings (subject to confirmation) were:
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Thursday 20th January 2005
(OHSSIG Conference 19th January)
Wednesday 30th March 2005
(NHS HR Conference 31st March - 1st April)
Friday 20th May 2005
Dunblane Hydro, Tayside
Wednesday 3rd August 2005
East of Scotland
Thursday 27th October 2005
(Partnership Conference 28th October)
Thursday 8th December 2005
Inchyra Grange Hotel, Falkirk
St Andrews Bay Hotel
West of Scotland
To be decided
All meetings 10.00 am to 4.00 pm; tea/coffee 9.30 am, lunch 12.00 noon, tea/coffee 3.00 pm.
PSU will issue confirmation of these arrangements when venues have been booked.
Action: PSU
Susie Watson
Partnership Support Unit
30 November 2004
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