PRIMET: The Association of Private Meteorological Services
PRIMET Ltd a Company limited by guarantee. Registered in England No. 7335206
Draft Minutes (PRIMET) Annual PRIMET-ECOMET
meeting, 25th September 2013, MeteoGroup Offices
London
Upon invitation of PRIMET, the 2013 Annual meeting between PRIMET and
ECOMET was held in the PA News Centre in Victoria, London on 25th
September 2013.
Upon invitation of PRIMET, Dr Michael Staudinger, Acting President of
ECOMET, took the chair. The meeting started with a tour d’table.
Participants from PRIMET
Dr Richard Pettifer (General Secretary of PRIMET)
Mrs Jennifer Campbell (MeteoGroup, chair of PRIMET board).
Mr. Dennis Schulze (MeteoGroup, chairman of Verband Deutscher
Wetterdienstleister)
Mr Gergely Naga (Idokep Ltd Hungary)
Mr Marcin Bernatowicz (Aura Centrum Poland)
Mr Coen Verryn Stuart (Data Manager, Meteogroup)
Participants from ECOMET
Mr Michael Staudinger (ZAMG and Acting President ECOMET)
Mr Willie McCairns (Chief Executive, ECOMET)
Mr Søren Olufsen (DMI and Chair ECOMET Working Group)
Mr Martin Kober (ZAMG)
Mrs Maija-Liisa Honkola (FMI)
Mr Philippe Santoni (Meteo France)
Mr Klaus Haderlain (DWD)
Mr Jürgen Christoffer (DWD)
Mr Paolo Capizzi (USAM)
Mr Frank Lantsheer (KNMI)
Mr Geir Kjaernli (Met Norway)
Mrs Anca Ristici (NMA)
Mrs Gemma Sánchez Fernandez (AEMET)
Mrs Johanna Fältström (SHMI)
Mr Mehmet Kirazolugu (TSMS)
Mr Tom Mcilwaine (Met Office)
Mr Fabio Venuti (ECMWF)
Mr Christophe Seynaeve (ECMWF)
4 Cranes Road, Sherborne St John, Hants RG24 9JD UK. Telephone: +44 1256 851023
Mobile: +44 7739 212227. Email: contactprimet@btinternet.com
Registered Office 292 Vauxhall Bridge Road London SW1V 1AE.
PRIMET: The Association of Private Meteorological Services
PRIMET Ltd a Company limited by guarantee. Registered in England No. 7335206
1. Agenda of the meeting
Accepted. Jennie Campbell advised that the Group will be given a tour of the
PA Newsroom immediately before lunch
2. Minutes of the meeting held on 27th March 2013.
Minutes accepted.
3. Recent developments in PRIMET and ECOMET
3.1. New PRIMET Members
PRIMET reported that they have
OpenMeteoData and TVMet
three
new members:
Idokep,
3.2. New ECOMET Members
ECOMET anticipate that they will soon have two new members (Serbia
and Checz Republic). Slovakia and Bulgaria also interested to join.
Possibly some small progress with Poland.
Francois Jacq has moved on from MétéoFrance and thus from ECOMET.
Hungarian Director has retired and new man not in place yet. Some
convergence of membership between ECOMET and EUMETNET is being
sought.
4. Matters arising from previous meeting
4.1. PRIMET to supply a translation of the proposed new Hungarian
law
RP reported that PRIMET had done this, had circulated the translation and
had made representations to the Hungarian Meteorological Service, the
Hungarian Governmment and the EU competition authorities. The current
position is that the proposed new law is being revised but the new draft
has not yet been published.
4.2. ECOMET provided feedback on the proposed new Hungarian law
WMcC visited Hungarian Service last May and told them of the unease in
the private sector and the EU Commission. It was agreed that he would
write to the Minister seeking a meeting, passing the draft through the
Hungarian Director. Idokep reported that in their view the Hungarian Met
Service does not really support the new law – they favour competition in
the market. Their impression is that the law is coming from lobby groups
within Hungary that would benefit from a suppression of the private sector.
There is an impression that other government departments in Hungary had
also generated negative feedback on the proposed new law.
4 Cranes Road, Sherborne St John, Hants RG24 9JD UK. Telephone: +44 1256 851023
Mobile: +44 7739 212227. Email: contactprimet@btinternet.com
Registered Office 292 Vauxhall Bridge Road London SW1V 1AE.
PRIMET: The Association of Private Meteorological Services
PRIMET Ltd a Company limited by guarantee. Registered in England No. 7335206
The ECOMET line to the Minister will be in support of open competition within
the market and the various competition and PSI Directives.
4.3. ECOMET to raise the issue of a discount on OPERA to
EUMETNET
The answer was that EUMETNET would not like to give a discount on OPERA
if any user has also licensed the national radar products. Individual members
would have to negotiate discounts on national products for those who also
license OPERA.
Opera is not yet in the ECOMET catalogue but all non-ECOMET contributors
except Poland have signed a license agreement for the data to go into the
ECOMET Catalogue.
The Chairman stated that ECOMET have an interest in ensuring that there is
a complete European radar “picture” available.
PRIMET members feel that there is a fundamental fairness issue here that
those who buy the national radar should not have to pay again for the same
data through OPERA. WMcC pointed out that OPERA feel that they are
adding value in producing the composite which they should be able to charge
for.
Germany has introduced a discounted price for their radar. This could also
include a discount for those who also buy OPERA - a significant step.
WMcC advised that there is a trend towards lower pricing in general.
Action: ECOMET agreed to do a tour de table again at the next ECOMET
Working Group to check which members would be willing to include such a
discount.
4.4. ECOMET to report on NMHS not to reverse policy of providing
free data without an appropriate notice period
WMcC: This has been discussed in the context of AEMET but no NMHS can
sign up to not reversing free data policies because this is a governmental
matter.
The Spanish delegate stated that the reversal in AEMET was caused because
the auditors had raised the fact that the free data download was against the
current law. However having halted their download service, AEMET are now
reviewing their catalogue prices.
JC stressed that changing policy without notice can destroy a business and
PRIMET hopes that ECOMET can urge this upon their members so that such
changes are in future made the subject of a suitable period of notice (six
months e.g.) The Chairman suggested that we can agree on such a notice
period (subject to any existing contractual requirements). WMcC said that this
had been discussed at the GA and the GA was receptive to the idea of a
guideline of, say, 3 months. This was noted but PRIMET feel that, for
commercial operations, this is too short.
4 Cranes Road, Sherborne St John, Hants RG24 9JD UK. Telephone: +44 1256 851023
Mobile: +44 7739 212227. Email: contactprimet@btinternet.com
Registered Office 292 Vauxhall Bridge Road London SW1V 1AE.
PRIMET: The Association of Private Meteorological Services
PRIMET Ltd a Company limited by guarantee. Registered in England No. 7335206
4.5. ECOMET to approach Poland for a price list
There have been some discussions between ECOMET and IMGW but
not much progress. There is a suggestion that POLAND has some legal
framework that prevents them selling their data. WMcC has a tentative
invitation to visit them but is not hopeful that this will happen soon.
The Chairman suggested that there is a concern that data supplied into
the private sector is simply re-broadcast without added value in
competition with the NMHS.
JC felt that IMGW was concerned about the private sector getting active
in Poland since they already make their radar data available to end users.
The Chairman said that it is in everyone’s interest to work in a
professional way and the Polish situation needs patience.
4.6. ECOMET to provide PRIMET with the results of their
questionnaire on Public Task (Duty)
WMcC apologised for the delay in getting this survey published due to
problems within their Secretariat. However, all ECOMET members have
responded and the full results should be out within a few weeks.
The Chairman indicated that there is considerable variety among the
returns but all are within the EU legal framework. The Lisbon Treaty
Article refers to attempts to harmonize the Warnings and Alerts processes
but this is very difficult to do.
4.7. ECOMET to approach its members about availability of data not
currently on the GTS.
ECOMET has surveyed its members and is still awaiting many of the
responses. Probably they will not complete the survey until well into next
year. They asked their people what data is available on GTS that is not
available for sale and what data they may have that is not on the GTS but
that could be made available.
4.8. Radiation data
This is now available from Belgium separately from the GTS packages
obtained through ECOMET.
4.9. PRIMET to send a proposal about a common policy statement to
ECOMET to be discussed at this meeting.
This was originally proposed by Han Wensink but this action has not been
completed. The matter will be pursued through a meeting between JC
and H W.
4.10.
Availability and cost of climate data sets
WMcC reported that ECA&D data base has been identified as a source
for European climate data sets. A further meeting between ECOMET and
4 Cranes Road, Sherborne St John, Hants RG24 9JD UK. Telephone: +44 1256 851023
Mobile: +44 7739 212227. Email: contactprimet@btinternet.com
Registered Office 292 Vauxhall Bridge Road London SW1V 1AE.
PRIMET: The Association of Private Meteorological Services
PRIMET Ltd a Company limited by guarantee. Registered in England No. 7335206
EUMETNET is scheduled to try to move this forward. At present all of
these data are held for research purposes only and all of the data owners
must be approached to agree its use commercially and on what terms.
JC pointed out that the problem is essentially one of pricing and
discounts.
Chairman responded that the issues of quality control and meta data are
of great importance. These are part of the remit of ECA&D. There is also
the importance of the “one stop shop”.
DS asked how the Met Services manage the purchase of these data for
their own commercial arm. The Chairman responded that they buy the
data once and re-use it as many times as they need.
Action: PRIMET agreed to propose a methodology for discounting large
volumes of climate data for ECOMET to dfiscuss with its members.
5. Update on other outstanding issues
5.1. Evaluation of the workshop in Italy
WMcC and RP reported that the situation in Italy is complex. There are
many Regional Met Services. A project has begun to unify these into a
new legal and political entity that will be the overall State Service. Probably
it will take until 2015 at the least to sort this out. CS asked if the many
regional observation networks are to be unified but there is no clarity on
this at present although it may emerge from the Italian Project.
5.2. Monitoring the Oslo Declaration
5.2.1. Price Changes AEMET
See above
5.2.2. Polish prices
JS the issue is when and if IMGW join ECOMET otherwise there is not
much that we can do. ECOMET will keep us briefed.
Sweden is implementing a free data policy step by step and
meteorological data will be included from November 2013.
6. New Items
6.1. AMDAR Data availability and cost
The instrumentation on the aircraft is owned by the airlines, the data are
owned by the airlines and the Met Services cannot at present disseminate
the data further. However, they are working to change the contract terms
to allow this further dissemination.
GN asked if private sectors can contract the airlines directly to obtain the
data. WMcC said that this may be a way forward.
4 Cranes Road, Sherborne St John, Hants RG24 9JD UK. Telephone: +44 1256 851023
Mobile: +44 7739 212227. Email: contactprimet@btinternet.com
Registered Office 292 Vauxhall Bridge Road London SW1V 1AE.
PRIMET: The Association of Private Meteorological Services
PRIMET Ltd a Company limited by guarantee. Registered in England No. 7335206
Chairman thought that in three years time we should have a data
warehouse (ECOMET) from which the data could be purchased. For this
we need a cost model and ECOMET will develop this and approach the
airlines to see if some agreement can be reached.
Action: ECOMET to continue to work with EUMETNET to make AMDAR
data available in the ECOMET catalogue.
6.2. Delivery costs –
There are significant differences between NMHS’s, some charging 20% of
license costs and other only small amounts
There seems to be no standard scale of delivery costs as between data
sets and Met Services. CS said that for UK radar the delivery cost is 20%
of license cost. (30,000 license, 6,000 delivery).
It was noted that buyers can shop around for the lowest delivery but in
general the data (e.g. radar) are so time sensitive that delay in delivery
associated with potentially lower costs makes the concept unworkable.
PRIMET was concerned that there are cases in which delivery costs are
not charged between Met Services when they purchase each other’s data
and this is effectively a subsidy. They asked ECOMET to investigate this.
Action: ECOMET agreed to refer this question to the next ECOMET
Working Group.
6.3. Austrian Radar - very hard to get any contract for access
The Chairman said that the Austrian Met is pushing hard with
Austrocontrol to get them into the overall data scheme including OPERA
and ECOMET. But this is a complex issue. Austrocontrol is state owned
but privately organised and funded by fees from the airlines. They claim
that the radar data are not public sector information and the PSI Directive
does not apply to them.
They will sell the data but charge 80% of the data cost for each re-use.
The Chairman noted that this is a lack of understanding of market
flexibility.
PRIMET should make the point to Austrocontrol that sales would increase
if the price were lower.
Action: PRIMET agreed to sound out their relevant members on the
potential market for the purchase of these data and provide the information
to CE ECOMET to help in his discussions with Austrocontrol.
6.4. Single Authoritative Voice for Warnings & Alerts
PRIMET made clear their position that although they support the principle
of a “single authoritative voice” for national warnings of severe conditions
that threaten life and property, they cannot accept any constraint that
prevents their members from publishing their own forecasts of such
conditions, whether or not they are agreed by the “single voice”. WMcC
offered to get involved and try to arbitrate the issues here.
4 Cranes Road, Sherborne St John, Hants RG24 9JD UK. Telephone: +44 1256 851023
Mobile: +44 7739 212227. Email: contactprimet@btinternet.com
Registered Office 292 Vauxhall Bridge Road London SW1V 1AE.
PRIMET: The Association of Private Meteorological Services
PRIMET Ltd a Company limited by guarantee. Registered in England No. 7335206
Action: ECOMET offered to arbitrate when any such disputes arose.
7. Conclusions
7.1. Action points
a)
b)
c)
d)
e)
f)
Watch Hungarian law position
Discount on Opera ECOMET to EUMETNET
Poland to be approached for price list
ECOMET will publish results of survey on Public Task.
ECOMET will publish list of data available but not on GTS
PRIMET to propose a discount structure for radar data to be discussed in
ECOMET
g) ECOMET to work on AMDAR data
h) PRIMET to seek their members views on rasonable price for Austrian radar
data and push Austro control for lower prices
i) Single voice for warnings (what is or is not a warning) ECOMET to arbitrate.
8. Next Meeting
Vienna in and around April week of 7th to 11th. PRIMET to consult its Board
members and revert with a date proposal as soon as possible.
4 Cranes Road, Sherborne St John, Hants RG24 9JD UK. Telephone: +44 1256 851023
Mobile: +44 7739 212227. Email: contactprimet@btinternet.com
Registered Office 292 Vauxhall Bridge Road London SW1V 1AE.