11 NOVEMBER 2004
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THURSDAY, 11 NOVEMBER 2004
____
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
____
The House met at 14:03.
The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a
moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.
NOTICE OF MOTION
Mr M WATERS (DA): Madam Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that I
shall move:
That the House-
(1) congratulates Kempton Park on the occasion of its centenary;
(2) recognises that in addition to being the gateway of Africa Johannesburg International Airport - Kempton Park has played an
important role in the shaping of the South African political
landscape;
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(3) notes -
(a)
that it was in Kempton Park that the negotiations for
South Africa’s first democratic constitution took place,
where our new democracy was born;
(b)
that it was also at Kempton Park where the tide turned
against the National Party, where it was dealt its first
political defeat in the new South Africa, losing a key
by-election in March 1997;
(c)
that the residents of Kempton Park have been celebrating
their centenary through 60 cultural activities,
including a Mardi Gras and a banquet held last night;
and
(d)
that in honour of our centenary Kempton Park has a star
named after it, and a rose has been cultivated and named
after the city; and
(4) hopes that the next hundred years will be as prosperous for
Kempton Park as the first hundred.
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MOTION OF CONDOLENCE
(The late President Yasser Arafat)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Deputy Speaker, I move
without notice as follows:
That the House -
(1) notes with shock and profound sadness the death of President
Yasser Arafat, who passed away on 11 November 2004;
(2) recognises that President Arafat was a veteran of the
liberation struggle of the Palestinian people, a patriot who
throughout his life demonstrated unwavering commitment to
the liberation of the Palestinian people and the achievement
of a just peace in the Middle East;
(3) recalls that -
(a) President Arafat as the leader of the Palestinian people
withstood tribulations and endured extreme hardship in
pursuit of peace in Palestine and Israel;
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(b) the United Nations in numerous resolutions has called
for peace in Palestine and Israel; and
(c) the peoples of South Africa and Palestine have profound
bonds of brotherhood forged in a common struggle to
achieve national liberation;
(4) believes that the passing on of President Arafat puts more
urgency on the United Nations to act decisively for the
resolution of the Israel-Palestine conflict; and
(5) conveys its condolences to the Arafat family, the
Palestinian National Authority, the Palestinian Liberation
Organisation, and to all the people of Palestine.
Agreed to.
REMEMBRANCE DAY
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Deputy Speaker, I move
without notice as follows:
That the House –
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(1) notes that today is Remembrance Day when those who died for
their country or cause in various wars and conflicts across
the world are formally remembered;
(2) believes that -
(a) it is important for them that we ensure a form of
collective consciousness so that they should never be
forgotten;
(b) as long as the people of the world remember those who
died, the democratic countries have a good chance of
remaining at peace; and
(c) those who died will not be forgotten and that their
sacrifice was not in vain; and
(3) therefore
tribute
resolves
to
those
to
who
observe
lost
a
their
moment
of
silence
lives
in
all
wars
as
a
and
conflicts.
Agreed to.
FURTHER MANDATE FOR AD HOC COMMITTEE ESTABLISHED TO CONSIDER ANNUAL
REPORT AND BUDGET OF OFFICE OF AUDITOR-GENERAL
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(Draft Resolution)
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Deputy Speaker, I
move the draft resolution printed in the name of the Chief Whip on
the Order Paper, as follows:
That, with reference to the resolution adopted by the House on 19
October 2004 establishing the ad hoc committee to consider the
Annual
Report
and
the
Budget
of
the
Office
of
the
Auditor-
General, the committee be further mandated to maintain oversight
over the Auditor-General and for that purpose to continue with
its functions until the oversight mechanism envisaged in the
Public Audit Bill is established.
Agreed to.
MEMBERS’STATEMENTS
HIV/AIDS WORKSHOP FOR TRADITIONAL PRACTITIONERS IN EAST LONDON
(Member’s Statement)
Ms N M MAHLAWE (ANC): Sekela-Somlomo, kutshanje eMonti bekubanjwe
ingqungquthela ebekukho kuyo amaxhwele, oogqirha nabanye abasebenzi
bezempilo. La maqela abantu ebedibanise iintloko egwadla iqhinga
lokulwa nesi sifo singugawulayo. Umbutho wesizwe i-ANC, uyalamkela
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inyathelo elithathwe nguRhulumente oxhuzula imikhala ngokuphumeza
umthetho ophawulayo yaye usamkela nento yokuba amaxhwele ayinxalenye
yabantu ababonelela ngempilo.
Intatho-nxaxheba yoogqirha bemveli ibalulekile ngenxa yokuba
amashumi asibhozo ekhulwini abantu bakuthi bayabahambela befuna
uncedo. Into efumanisekileyo yeyokuba amaxhwele ngabona bantu
bazaziyo izidingo zabantu bakuthi kuba bahlala nabo. Umbutho wesizwe
i-ANC iyalamkela eli nyathelo lithatyathwe liSebe lezeMpilo eMpuma
Koloni kwaye lilinqwenelela impilo nempumelelo. Ndiyabulela.
[Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)
[Ms N M MAHLAWE (ANC): Deputy Chair, recently a workshop was held in
East London where there were herbalists, doctors and other health
workers. This group of people was meeting to discuss solutions and
strategies to fight the scourge of Aids. The national organisation,
the ANC, welcomes the initiative taken by the government in power in
passing legislation and also recognises that herbalists are among
the people who offer health services.
The participation of traditional doctors is crucial because 80% of
our people consult these people for help. It has been found that
herbalists are the people who are familiar with the needs of our
people because they live among them. The national organisation, the
ANC, welcomes the initiative taken by the Department of Health in
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the Eastern Cape and wishes it strength and success. Thank you.
[Applause.]]
ALLEGATIONS OF BRIBERY AND EXTORTION
(Member’s Statement)
Mr D H M GIBSON (DA): Madam Speaker, members of the House will have
noted reports about a substantial bribery scandal. A micro finance
company known as Gems, which is a subsidiary of the African Bank,
has paid a fine of R5 million and has agreed to pay compensation of
R60 million.
The Scorpions have implicated a number of SAMWU officials and a DA
councillor in Cape Town. The Scorpions have indicated that certain
persons will be arrested within days.
I wish to place on record that the DA is committed to the principle
that any public representative who is arrested or charged on a
serious offence will immediately be suspended. Any Member of
Parliament, Member of Provincial Legislature or city councillor who
is convicted of a serious offence, particularly one involving
dishonesty, must be deprived of his or her seat.
I am challenging the ANC to say the same. [Applause]
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SOUTH AFRICA’S ``BLACK CHRIST’’ PAINTING BACK FROM EXILE
(Member’s Statement)
Ms N P KHUNOU (ANC): Madam Deputy Speaker, the ANC welcomes the fact
that one of South Africa’s extraordinary oil paintings, in terms of
both its history and artistic audacity, has gone on display in the
National Gallery in Cape Town, where it forms the centrepiece of an
exhibition on ten years of democracy.
The eight-foot canvass, which was the creation of Cape Town artist
Ronnie Harrison, was first unveiled in 1962. It was considered
blasphemous and subversive by the apartheid government. It depicts
former ANC president and Nobel laureate Chief Albert Luthuli being
crucified by former Prime Minister Hendrik Verwoerd and his Justice
Minister John Vorster.
It left the country in 1961. It hung in the St Paul’s Cathedral in
London and later toured the UK and Europe where it raised millions
for the victims of apartheid. At the same time Mr Harrison was
arrested and repeatedly interrogated and tortured by the then
regime.
However, despite the state’s attempt to quash the message and
destroy it, the painting has developed a life of its own and, to use
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the artist’s words, remained ``protected by divine providence’’. I
thank you. [Applause.]
CRISIS IN EASTERN CAPE DEPARTMENT
(Member’s Statement)
Mr M DIKO: Madam Deputy Speaker, the UDM is dismayed at the crisis
experienced in the social department in the Eastern Cape. The most
recent example of this is the death of 12 grant beneficiaries in the
Uitenhage area after being turned away by the social department
officials. Members of the community claim that at least some of
these people suffer from full-blown Aids, but were nonetheless
turned away because they had to reapply.
Many of these people were referred to a certain Dr Pillay, before
the elections, who provided the necessary medical certification for
their disease. But it is unacceptable, Madam Deputy Speaker, that
three months after the elections these people were told that they
had to reapply.
Siyalibongoza iSebe lezeNtlalontle ukuba malijonge enye indlela
yokunxibelelana nabantu, kuba ezi ncwadi azifiki ebantwini.
Ubuncinane ezi ncwadi mazikhutshwe iinyanga ezintathu phambi kokuba
kuphele ixesha kwaye zikhutshelwe kwezaa ndawo bathi abantu bafumane
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inkamnkam kuzo, hayi ukuba zithunyelwe ebantwini. Enkosi.
(Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)
[We are appealing to the Department of Social Development to
consider other ways of communicating with people, because these
letters do not reach the intended people. At least let these letters
be handed out three months in advance; and they should be handed out
at their pension paypoints, they need not be posted to them.]
ARRIVE ALIVE CAMPAIGN
(Member’s Statement)
Mnr C B HERANDIEN (NNP): Agb Adjunkspeaker, tydens verlede jaar se
feesseisoen het duisende mense in ongelukke op Suid-Afrikaanse paaie
gesterf. Ons kan nie ’n herhaling van so ’n slagting hierdie jaar op
ons paaie toelaat nie.
Die NNP het by verskeie geleenthede sy kommer uitgespreek oor
padveiligheid. Daar is ongeveer ses miljoen motoriste op ons paaie,
daarom wil ons ’n beroep op almal doen om asseblief die padreëls te
gehoorsaam. Baie van hierdie ongelukke kon vermy gewees het.
Padveiligheid is almal se verantwoordelikheid, veral oor die
Kerstyd, aangesien die hoeveelheid motoriste op ons paaie gaan
verdubbel. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
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[Mr C B HERANDIEN: Hon Deputy Speaker, thousands of people died in
accidents on South African roads last year during the festive
season. We cannot allow a repetition of a massacre like this on our
roads this year.
The NNP has expressed its concern about road safety on many
occasions. There are approximately six million motorists on our
roads, and therefore we want to appeal to everyone to please obey
the rules of the road. Many of these accidents could have been
avoided.
Road safety is everyone’s responsibility, especially at
Christmastime, because the number of motorists on our roads is going
to double.]
The NNP would also like to urge members of Parliament and the public
to donate blood as the SA National Blood Service indicated that
blood supplies are at their lowest level in 30 years. By donating
blood, you could save a life.
The NNP pledges its support to the Arrive Alive campaign. Let’s all
arrive alive at our destinations. Thank you.
LEARNERSHIPS
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(Member’s Statement)
Prince N E ZULU (IFP): Thank you, Deputy Speaker. It is worth noting
that there has been a steady increase in the enrolment of learners
in learnerships since the programme was first introduced in the
Department of Labour.
The first year saw more than 3 000 learners register in different
centres. In the second year more than 25 000 learners registered,
and by March this year a total number of 65 725 learners had been
registered. The National Skills Development target of 80 000 does
not seem too far to reach, and we wish the Department of Labour well
in its endeavour to fulfil the mandate.
However, what remains to be seen is whether these learners are
getting jobs or have become skilled unemployable youth who run the
risk of being poached by or are lost to other countries. A recent
study on this matter indicates that the placement rate of learners
who have completed their learnerships is in excess of 60%.
Given the state of the economy, which is unable to generate jobs the
way everybody would like to see, 60% is not an absolute
disappointment but a steady progression in the right direction. We
can only hope that the figures quoted above do spread even to the
rural areas of Nongoma and other places.
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LANGUAGE POLICY OF UNIVERSITIES
(Member’s Statement)
Dr P W A MULDER (VF Plus): Mevrou die Speaker, die VF Plus stem saam
met die NNP se beroep op ’n veldtog oor veilige verkeer en op Arrive
Alive. Dis net jammer die NNP het nie ‘arrive alive’ nie, Mevrou.
Die Grondwet bepaal in artikel 6.2 dat die staat praktiese en
daadwerklike maatreëls moet tref om die status van inheemse tale in
Suid-Afrika te verhoog en te bevorder. Die VF Plus glo dat die
waardigheid van ’n persoon regstreeks in verband staan met die
erkenning van sy taal. Dan verwelkom ons ook die feit dat steeds
meer parlementslede in hierdie Huis hul toesprake in hul moedertaal
hou en dat die vertaaldienste tans uitgebrei word.
Prof Jakes Gerwel het in ’n verslag vir universiteite voorgestel dat
een manier om inheemse tale se status te verhoog is om spesifieke
universiteite verantwoordelik te maak vir spesifieke inheemse tale
en op hierdie wyse hierdie tale te bevorder. Die VF Plus steun
steeds daardie voorstel wat nie deur die regering geïmplenteer is
nie.
Deel van dié voorstel was dat universiteite soos Stellenbosch en
Potchefstroom verantwoordelikheid aanvaar vir ’n taal soos
Afrikaans. Huidige voorstelle by die Universiteit van Stellenbosch
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dat Afrikaans as voertaal in die weg van transformasie staan, is
kortsigtig en toon geen begrip van hoe mense deur hul moedertaal
bemagtig kan word nie. Dit bly vir ons onverklaarbaar dat niemand
dink of besef dat Engels as die enigste voertaal by die Universiteit
van Kaapstad dalk ’n hindernis kan wees vir die grootste hoeveelheid
inwoners in die Wes-Kaap waar meer as 60% van hulle Afrikaans as
moedertaal het nie.
Dis tyd dat die regering erns maak met artikel 6.2 in die Grondwet,
óf erken dat dit nooit die erns van die regering was om inheemse
tale werklik te bevorder nie. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans
speech follows.)
[Dr P W A MULDER (FF Plus): Madam Speaker, the FF Plus agrees with
the NNP’s appeal for a campaign on safe traffic and for Arrive
Alive. It is just a pity that the NNP did not
arrive alive, Madam.
The Constitution provides in section 6.2 that the state must take
practical and positive measures to elevate and promote the status of
indigenous languages in South Africa. The FF Plus believes that the
dignity of a person is directly related to the recognition of his
language. Then we also welcome the fact that an increasing number of
politicians in this House are making their speeches in their mother
tongue and that the translation services are being extended.
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Prof Jakes Gerwel proposed in a report for universities that one way
in which the status of indigenous languages can be elevated is by
making specific universities responsible for specific indigenous
languages, thereby promoting these languages. The FF Plus continues
to support that proposal which has not been implemented by the
government.
Part of this proposal was that universities such as Stellenbosch and
Potchefstroom take responsibility for a language such as Afrikaans.
Present proposals at the University of Stellenbosch that Afrikaans
as a medium of instruction hampers transformation are short-sighted
and show no understanding of how people can be empowered by their
mother tongue. We find it inexplicable that no one thinks or
realises that English as the only medium of instruction
at the
University of Cape Town could possibly be a hindrance to the vast
majority of the inhabitants of the Western Cape, where more than 60%
of them have Afrikaans as their mother tongue.
The time has come for the government to become serious about section
6.2 of the Constitution or to admit that the government never
seriously intended actually promoting indigenous languages.
you.]
DUMISANE MAKHAYE’S ROLE
(Member’s Statement)
I thank
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Ms Z A KOTA (ANC): Madam Deputy Speaker, the ANC notes that the
objective of creating a better life for all is being achieved in the
province of KwaZulu-Natal through, amongst other things, the
provision of housing.
Under the leadership of Comrade Dumisane Makhaye, the foundation for
accumulated delivery of housing was firmly laid. The Durban Metro
Mayor’s mid-term report records great strides in all areas of
housing delivery, including the delivery of units and the conversion
of hostels into proper family units.
The slums upgrading project is a true reflection of a people-centred
and people-driven delivery project. Not only are the communities
involved in the building of houses, however, but the owners of the
new units also dismantled their slums themselves as they took
occupation of their new houses. This is simple proof of the ANC-led
government’s commitment to the creation of a better life for all. I
thank you. [Applause.]
PROBLEMS EXPERIENCED BY MUNICIPALITIES
(Member’s Statement)
Mnr S F HAASBROEK (DA): Mev die Adjunkspeaker, altesaam sowat R1,2
miljard van hul begroting die afgelope jaar is nie deur die 34
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staatsdepartemente bestee nie, wat aandui dat dienslewering aan die
publiek in die gedrang is. Byna al die munisipaliteite in SuidAfrika ervaar erge finansiële probleme en wanbestuur, en sommige is
deurweek met korrupsie.
President Mbeki self wys daarop dat 136 munisipaliteite min of geen
vermoë oor het om dienste te lewer nie. Pas het dit bekend geword
dat die Oos-Kaap ook in duie stort wat betref dienslewering, terwyl
die Vrystaat R5 miljoen betaal het om net ses toilette te bou. Dit
toon duidelik dat daar iets nie lekker ruik nie. Die oorhoofse
probleme word toegeskryf aan ’n gebrek aan bestuursvermoë,
kredietbeheer en ondoeltreffende regeringstelsels.
Adjunkspeaker, die Departement van Openbare Dienste is op al drie
vlakke van regering die boustene van die demokrasie. Dit is waar
kiesers hul daaglikse bestaan voer, en daarom sê die DA dat dit die
staat se verantwoordelikheid is om toe te sien dat indringende
maatreëls geïmplementeer word om tweede- en derdevlakregering na ’n
gesonde basis van doeltreffende rekeningstelsel te dwing. Dankie.
[Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans member’s statement
follows.)
[Mr S F HAASBROEK (DA): Madam Deputy Speaker, approximately R1,2
billion of their budgets for the past year has not been spent by the
34 government departments collectively, which indicates that service
delivery to the public is being jeopardised. Almost all the
municipalities in South Africa are experiencing severe financial
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difficulties and mismanagement, and some of them are fraught with
corruption.
President Mbeki himself has pointed out that there remains little or
no capacity in 136 municipalities to deliver services. It has just
become known that the Eastern Cape is also in a state of collapse
with regard to service delivery, while the Free State paid R5
million to build only six toilets. This shows clearly that something
smells fishy. The key problems can be attributed to a lack of
management capacity, credit control and inefficient governing
systems.
Deputy Speaker, the Department of Public Services is the building
block of democracy on all three tiers of government. It is here that
voters lead their daily lives and therefore the DA is saying that it
is the responsibility of the state to ensure that in-depth measures
are implemented to coerce second and third-tier government towards a
sound foundation for an efficient system of accountability. Thank
you. [Applause.]]
C-MAX JAILBREAK ATTEMPT TRAGEDY
(Member’s Statement)
Ms M W MAKGATE (ANC): Madam Speaker, the bloody incident that
claimed the lives of four people at C-Max prison on Sunday, 7
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November 2004, must be condemned. This event deserves most urgent
investigation. The staff at C-Max prison work under very difficult,
risky and testing conditions.
In dealing with this matter, we would suggest that the government
should also consider wide-ranging measures, including tougher
security clearances for people recruited to work there. The
Portfolio Committee on Correctional Services must pay an oversight
visit to the prison urgently to get an assessment and briefing on
the matter.
The ANC commends the police and officials of the Department of
Correctional Services on their bravery in containing the situation
at C-Max prison. The ANC would like to convey its deep-felt
condolences to the families of the deceased officials and their
beloved ones. [Applause.]
HISTORIC LAND CLAIMS FOR COLOURED PEOPLE
(Member’s Statement)
Mnr S E OPPERMAN (DA): Adjunkspeaker, die onlangse bespreking deur
die Kabinet rondom eerste-nasiestatus en historiese grondeise vir
bruinmense is die regte ding om te doen. Dit sal in die volheid van
die tyd gestalte vind. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
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[Mr S E OPPERMAN (DA): Deputy Speaker, the recent discussion by
Cabinet surrounding first nation status and historical land claims
for coloured people is the right thing to do. This will come to
fruition in the fullness of time.]
It is important to deal with foundations because foundations
determine destinations.
Die bespreking kom op ’n tydstip dat al hoe meer bruinmense hul
godgegewe mandaat herontdek en hul profetiese roeping begin
verstaan. Ons weet dat die bitterheid van die amandels nog dik loop
in ons gemeenskap, waar die goeie gesindheid van “ ons behoort aan
mekaar” gedurig misbruik is.
Hierdie wortel van bitterheid sal verwyder word. Bruinmense sal
vryspraak aanvaar. Ons sal versoen word sodat ons met ons mandaat as
bedienaars van versoening hierdie kontinent kan beïnvloed.
Die 24/7-baton wat George Schmidt in 1738 na ons land gebring het en
wat meer as 50 jaar lank gedra is deur ’n Hessekwa-vrou, Vehettge
Tikhuie - die Genadendallers noem haar Magdalena - word met ’n nuwe
passie gedra en deur nóg duisende opgetel. Die Ottentottoe
(Hottentotte) sal inderdaad, soos Saartjie Baartman, uit ’n wêreld
van eensaamheid, vernedering en verwerping huis toe kom. Baie
dankie. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
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PAGE: 22
[The discussion comes at a time when more and more coloured people
are rediscovering their God-given mandate and beginning to
understand their prophetic calling. We know that the bitterness of
the almonds still runs deep in our community whose good disposition
of
“we belong to each other” is continuously misused.
This root of bitterness will be removed. Coloured people will accept
exoneration. We will be reconciled in order for us to influence the
continent with our mandate as servants of reconciliation.
The 24/7-baton that George Schmidt brought to our country in 1738
and which was borne for more than 50 years by a Hessequa-woman,
Vehettge Tikhuie, whom the people of Genadendal call Magdalena, is
being carried with a renewed passion and thousands more are picking
up on this. The Ottentottoe (Hottentots) will indeed, like Saartjie
Baartman, come home from a world of loneliness, humiliation and
rejection. Thank you very much. [Applause]]
FRONTING IN BLACK ECONOMIC EMPOWERMENT COMPANIES
(Member’s Statement)
Mr M J BHENGU (IFP): Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is widely
acknowledged that the practice of companies using black people as
fronts in order to obtain contracts on the strength of their
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PAGE: 23
empowerment credentials is a problem. Fronting is also hindering the
advancement of true black economic empowerment in this country.
An example of this practice is an instance where it was recently
discovered that a man from Durban was allegedly promoted from
working as a driver to being a director of the business that he was
working for and yet had had no involvement whatsoever in the day-today running of the business.
The company had secured several contracts from eThekwini
municipality on the basis of its empowerment credentials, including
a project worth R5 million. We are therefore glad to hear that the
company’s existing contracts with the municipality were terminated
after the completion of the investigation by eThekwini municipality
into companies who had received tenders on the basis of their
economic credentials.
Fronting should not be tolerated and businesses or organisations
that are known to be taking part in this immoral practice should be
dealt with accordingly, as they are taking business away from
organisations with true empowerment credentials. We therefore hope
that the relevant authorities are giving their full attention to
this problem and that they are actively pursuing ways and means of
identifying people who are involved in fronting so as to put a stop
to that. Thank you.
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PAGE: 24
PENDING SUSPENSION OF PENSION GRANTS IN EASTERN CAPE
(Member’s Statement)
Mr F BHENGU (ANC): Madam Speaker, we are disturbed to hear that
several legitimate pension grants may not be paid out in the Eastern
Cape. Reports are that the elderly and the disabled were unable to
meet the deadline within which to reapply for their grants because
of a shortage of doctors to assess them. We appeal to the provincial
government to reconsider that decision, taking into account the
geographic and demographic make-up of the Eastern Cape and other
problems that members of the public may experience when they have to
be assessed.
The ANC applauds the drive to stem corruption in the administration
of grants and fully supports the process aimed at ensuring that only
those people who are genuinely in need of grants receive these
grants. However, the ANC cannot support the situation where
thousands of vulnerable old people are deprived of their
constitutionally guaranteed social assistance grants due to an
administrative process.
We urge the Minister to intervene in this situation and to ensure
that the poor and the vulnerable in the Eastern Cape are not
unreasonably deprived of their social grants and assistance. Thank
you. [Applause.]
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PAGE: 25
ARREST OF POACHERS IN PLATTEKLOOF NATURAL HERITAGE SITE
(Member’s Statement)
Mr B M KOMPHELA (ANC): Madam Speaker, eight suspected poachers were
arrested last week after conservation officials caught them redhanded collecting the restios and indigenous fynbos reeds which had
been illegally cut in the Plattekloof Natural Heritage Site.
The ANC welcomes these arrests and urges the courts to pass maximum
permissible sentences should these suspects be found guilty. The
conservation and preservation of natural heritage is in the best
interest of our country and our people.
The Plattekloof Natural Heritage Site is the habitat of 155 plant
species, 12 of which are listed as critically endangered in a Red
Data Book. These plants are unequally distributed in the Western
Cape.
The ANC calls on our people to join hands with the natural
conservation workers to protect natural heritage for the sake of our
children and future generations. Thank you. [Applause.]
MINISTERS’RESPONSES
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 26
MEDIUM OF INSTRUCTION IN HIGHER EDUCATION
(Minister’s Response)
The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I
thought it important to, perhaps, briefly comment on the statement
made by the hon member of the FF Plus. I think it is important to
state that while one recognises the composition of the province in
terms of language - which is mother tongue - there is no university
in South Africa that is a regional university. All our universities
are striving to be national institutions as well as, increasingly,
international institutions. That is the character of higher
education that I sincerely would want to preserve: a national and
global character and not a regional one. I believe any university on
which we would want to impose a very limited character would resist
such a limitation.
We also must recall that language medium is a choice made by
institutions. There is no government imposition in terms of language
utilisation in a particular higher education institution. Having
said that, we must also emphasise that in terms of education Acts,
as well as in terms of our Constitution, language medium cannot be
used as a means of exclusion.
Regarding all languages, we are looking forward to the report of the
task team appointed by the former Minister to look into the further
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 27
development of our higher education institutions and to identify
whether indeed we can develop one of our indigenous African
languages into a language for instruction in higher education. But I
would think, even in the absence of that report that what is vital
for higher education is to maintain its character of diversity and
openness for all who wish to access it.
We need to ensure that we don’t in any way limit access to a range
of languages, including Afrikaans, English and maybe one of the
other official languages of our country, but we also need to ensure
that every young person in South Africa can attend any of the
institutions in our country. That is our policy and that is the
approach we wish to maintain.
PROBLEMS FACING THOSE WHO RECEIVE STATUTORY GRANTS
(Minister’s Response)
The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Thank you very much,
Madam Speaker. I thought it necessary that, on behalf of the social
cluster, one should respond on the matters that were raised by hon
Diko and hon Bhengu.
Indeed, it is sad to note the circumstances that some of the people
who have applied or are eligible for statutory grants have found
themselves in, as was explained. It cannot be a matter that we, as
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 28
government, should take lightly. It cannot be that we should allow
administrative challenges to actually impede the process of
assisting those who require such support. We will therefore ensure,
through discussion with our colleagues in the provinces, that at
least some precautions are taken. Some of those have been proposed
by hon Diko, such as that a three months’ time lead should be given
to ensure that people can be informed in time.
We also need to look at measures of communication that may make it
possible that those who are affected are reached in time. I
therefore would like to say to hon members that I will convey this
message to Minister Skweyiya who, in turn, will have discussions
with his provincial colleagues at Minmec level. Thank you.
[Applause.]
CONTRIBUTIONS OF THE LATE DUMISANI MAKHAYE TO HOUSING AND
ERADICATION OF SLUMS
(Minister’s Response)
The MINISTER OF HOUSING: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. I
welcome the statement made by the hon Zoe Kota on housing in
KwaZulu-Natal, especially in reference to the leadership of Dumisani
Makhaye. Regarding the statement by the hon member, I just wanted to
elaborate on some of the work that the late MEC Dumisani Makhaye was
involved in in respect of housing.
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 29
History will record Dumisani Makhaye as a selfless, dedicated
servant of the people of South Africa who contributed immensely, not
only to the destruction of apartheid but also the creations that it
had left behind. As he plotted the downfall of the enemy in the
trenches, he also plotted the return to social justice for all South
Africans. He gave hope to millions of people that one day they will
have a place to call home. He gave the last days of his life to
ensure that this hope was achieved.
The late MEC Makhaye conceptualised the pioneering work of slum
clearance, which today we have adopted as one of the pillars of our
housing policy. This was started off in KwaZulu-Natal, where Makhaye
worked and served his people, most of whom have moved or continue to
move to decent houses. The number of people whose lives have been
improved by this measure - by the actions of the late MEC Makhaye is in excess of 20 000 households, because he believed in the
commitment to the principles of the Freedom Charter.
Before his untimely death, Dumisani had made a commitment to ensure
that in six years’ time there would be no family in a shack in
KwaZulu-Natal. It is under the leadership of Dumisani Makhaye that
housing development and housing delivery improved in KwaZulu-Natal
by at least 80% between 1999 and 2002. Rural communities, for the
first time, had access to government houses provided under the
leadership of this sterling comrade.
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 30
It was Comrade Dumisani who launched the rehabilitation of houses
that had been damaged in political violence. That rehabilitation was
successfully implemented immediately after he took over the
leadership of the housing project in KwaZulu-Natal. He lived to undo
the legacy of apartheid and often he was seen in informal
settlements and in run-down buildings.
The people of KwaZulu-Natal will never forget that it was Dumisani
Makhaye who gave hope to the people of Mpumalanga, Ezakheni, Wembesi
and Embali.
Finally, under the leadership of Dumisani Makhaye the department of
housing in KwaZulu-Natal was the first in the country to come up
with the housing policy to accommodate HIV/Aids orphans. The
programme provides funding for the establishment of cluster homes
for Aids victims and orphans, and for accommodation of adults with
HIV/Aids and those who have been neglected by their families.
Subsidies are given by the state to aid such affected families. The
two projects which he pioneered are Lilly of the Valley and Golden
Acre, and they will provide homes for 200 children.
I have done this to ensure that we all recognise and bear testimony
to what the President said when we buried the late hon MEC, Dumisani
Makhaye. He said, and I quote:
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 31
We need not one, nor two, nor ten but thousands of Dumisani
Makhayes for this country to thrive.
Thank you. [Applause.]
PRESIDENT MBEKI AND RETRACTION OF MOTION
(Ruling)
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Before we come to the subject for discussion, I
just want to make sure Mr Ellis is here, and Mr Nel.
During Members’ Statements on 2 November 2004, the hon Mr Nel raised
a point of order regarding remarks made by the hon Mr Ellis, asking
me to rule whether it was in order to attribute statements and
motives to the head of state without any substantiation. I undertook
to study the Hansard and give a ruling. Having had the opportunity
to study the unrevised Hansard, I wish to rule as follows:
Mr Ellis, with reference to a motion passed by the NCOP on 26
October 2004, said that President Mbeki was demanding that the NCOP
retract the motion and had allegedly threatened not to attend
Friday’s sitting of the NCOP unless the motion was retracted. The
suggestion by Mr Ellis that the President might have sought to
compel the NCOP to take a certain course of action by allegedly
threatening not to attend a sitting of the NCOP, and that the NCOP,
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 32
ever obedient, complied with the demand, is both a reflection on the
NCOP and the President. I must therefore ask Mr Ellis to withdraw
his remarks. Hon Mr Ellis?
Mr M J ELLIS: Yes, Madam Deputy Speaker. May I ask on what grounds I
must withdraw. Is it unparliamentary what I said? [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mr Ellis, the Chair is asking you to withdraw
the statement. I’m not asking you to make a statement.
Mr M J ELLIS: Am I not entitled to ask on what grounds I must
withdraw, Madam Deputy Speaker? [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have just explained . . .
Mr M J ELLIS: In terms of which Rule must I withdraw?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mr Ellis, you know as well as I do that business
of the NCOP is business of the NCOP. It has nothing to do with this
House. In fact, the practice that we found here was that there was
no reference at all to the NCOP. It used to be referred to as “That
Place” because we did not want, as this House, to interfere in what
they were doing. And, of course, I have gone through the Hansard.
Some of the things that I mentioned, even earlier on, which I found
as the culture of the House, are that it is not necessarily
unparliamentary language that we have to rule against, it is also
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 33
the way in which we use parliamentary language to actually hurt
other people. So, it is in that light that I am saying to you it is
not a written Rule, but a Rule - I am stating now - whenever we do
things in this House.
In fact, if you go back to Mr Nel’s question, he asked how you could
substantiate what you said. You said that the head of state
threatened the NCOP. I think it is in bad taste. It is in that vein
that I ask that you please withdraw that reference to the President.
We have no proof – all of us – that he ever said so.
I don’t have to address you on a matter that I have ruled on,
because I’ve ruled. What I would like you to do is just to withdraw
that reference to the President when we don’t have proof that the
President actually threatened the NCOP, and to refrain from taking
business that is before the NCOP and making it our business. I don’t
want to address you further than this.
Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Deputy Speaker, I will withdraw in respect of
your . . .
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, not in the future. You withdraw now, and
then we close this matter and continue as there is such a lot of
business.
Mr M J ELLIS: Then I will not withdraw, Madam Deputy Speaker.
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 34
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You will not withdraw. [Interjections.]
[Applause.]
Well, of course, we get advice from the Table. But it is up to us as
presiding officers to take the advice or not. The first part of the
advice is that we are within the Rules, in fact Rule 63, which we
could take out and read.
The second part of the advice is that I should wait for Mr Ellis to
come back and ask him to withdraw, which I don’t want to do. He has
no reason to leave while I am still addressing him. I want to come
back to the House and rule against his behaviour, because it is
disrespectful. It shows that he does not respect the Chair and this
House. [Applause.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Deputy Speaker, may I
address you on this point of order? [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Gibson, this matter is closed. This matter
is between me and Mr Ellis, and Mr Ellis and this House. He has just
shown us that he has no respect for my ruling. And, whilst I am
still addressing him – this matter is not closed as yet – he walks
out of the Chamber. So, I think, this House is going to be
respected, irrespective of whether people like the rulings or not.
You don’t walk out on anybody. But walking out of a Chamber is, I
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 35
think, something that should be seen as very serious. Therefore sit
down, Mr Gibson. We’ll address the matter . . . [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Deputy Speaker, with great
respect, you can’t have it both ways. You tell me the matter is
closed and then you say the matter is not closed. Will you please
decide whether it is closed or not. [Interjections.] If you still
want to take it further with Mr Ellis, then it is not closed and I
would like to address you on the matter.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mr Gibson, the matter is between Mr Ellis and
the Chair. If Mr Ellis was here to speak on the matter, I wouldn’t
have a problem. But the ruling I made was not directed at you. I
think that it is out of disrespect that an hon member would walk out
of the Chamber while we are addressing him. That is why I say in as
far as still opening up this matter for discussion is concerned, it
is closed. The matter will be reopened by Mr Ellis, the Chair and
this House. I want to come back to this House in the presence of Mr
Ellis, having looked at all other things and this kind of behaviour,
and rule on this behaviour.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Are you declining hearing me
before you rule on the matter? [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: On what point do you want to address me, Mr
Gibson?
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 36
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam, are you saying I can
address you, or saying I can’t address you?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You can’t . . .
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam, it is very difficult with
the mob jeering and cheering over there. [Interjections.] If they
would please keep quiet while I attempt to address the Chair, then
I’ll try to do so and to be helpful on the matter.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mr Gibson, there is noise from both sides. There
is cheering from both sides. If you are trying to bring order, they
are also trying to bring order. What makes you believe that when you
cheer you bring order while they can’t bring order? So, if we say
that there is cheering on this side and cheering on that side . . .
Hon members, the cheering should also stop, because it is not
helpful. I have made a ruling. I think it is disrespectful of any
member, whilst they are being addressed, to walk out. I think let us
leave the matter there.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I wanted to explain to you what
happened.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Why he left? [Interjections.]
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 37
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Yes.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Why can’t he come and explain himself?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: [Inaudible.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Sorry, Deputy Speaker, Mr
Gibson, could we please, for the purpose of the decorum of the
House, avoid this exchange between you and Mr Gibson. It is very
clear, Madam, in your ruling that you want the matter to be
postponed until Mr Ellis is present. Could we please appeal to Mr
Gibson as well to let the matter rest until Mr Ellis returns to the
House? Please.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, I hear what the hon
Chief Whip is saying. I simply wanted to say to you that it was
quite evident to me that Mr Ellis thought the matter had been
disposed of. You asked him to withdraw the matter, he declined to do
so, and he took the honourable way of leaving. That is exactly what
he did.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: If that is honourable, I still need to be
schooled on what honourable means.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Right. Okay. I needed to address
you on that point.
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 38
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: We now come to the subject for discussion . . .
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Thank you, you won’t hear me.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I rule that you sit down. We now come to the
Subject for Discussion: Sixteen days of activism: Unite against
Woman and Child Abuse. I now call the hon the Deputy President.
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, if you
would just indulge me. In the course of making his intervention, Mr
Gibson referred to hon members here as a “mob”. I think that is
highly unparliamentary and he must withdraw it.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Well, in the heat of the argument, I could have
skipped that, but let me come back to that with a ruling. If the hon
member did refer to the ANC members as a mob and he wants to
withdraw that, he may do so now and then we move on.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam, I don’t actually want to
withdraw it.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Okay, great. That’s fine.
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 39
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: But if you tell me to withdraw it,
I will withdraw it. They were carrying on like a mob. That is all I
was saying, but if that is unparliamentary I withdraw it, Madam.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: It is not,“if that is unparliamentary”. It is
unparliamentary to refer to hon members as a mob, and you know that.
What you can now do, which is honourable, is to withdraw it and sit
down.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I withdraw it unreservedly.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you.
SIXTEEN DAYS OF ACTIVISM: UNITE AGAINST WOMAN AND CHILD ABUSE
(Subject for Discussion)
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Deputy Speaker, hon members, in
Kliptown, at the Congress of the People 49 years ago, the people of
South Africa declared, among other things, that there would be peace
and security, when they adopted the Freedom Charter. The campaign
and programme of action to create a safer environment for women and
children is in line with this vision.
As we prepare for the beginning of the campaign 16 Days of Activism:
No Violence Against Women and Children, from 25 November to 10
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 40
December, we are affirming our belief that the rights of women and
children are human rights, and that their violation runs against the
spirit and letter of our Constitution. President Mbeki will launch
this campaign in Port Elizabeth on 25 November, and his involvement
indicates the seriousness with which this matter is taken at the
highest level of government and the country.
The campaign brings us together as a nation, to recommit ourselves
to the goals of eradicating women and child abuse, and to create an
environment that is conducive to the growth and development of women
and children. We are holding this debate today because we realise
that this problem still exists, and that we need to further share
views on what can be done, and to report back on the progress we
have made in dealing with this scourge.
As government, our commitment to this goal has been supported with
firm action, and we are pleased with the progress we have made in
preventative measures, as well as remedial action. Our comprehensive
programme has involved working through a number of strategies. These
include investing in young people to prevent crime and violence,
promoting moral regeneration and rebuilding the social fabric,
transforming the criminal justice system, improving the status of
women and the overall programme of social and economic development.
We have embarked on this comprehensive approach, because law
enforcement on its own is not sufficient to prevent domestic
violence and the abuse of children. This is due to the complex
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 41
nature of the crime. Most of these crimes take place in people’s
homes and are not reported to the police. If they are reported,
there is always a possibility that the case may be withdrawn, due to
family or social pressure, and also due to economic dependence on
the perpetrator and other reasons.
The 16 days campaign is therefore one of the most important public
communication efforts to raise awareness and instil confidence in
victims. Domestic violence occurs amongst couples of all classes and
social backgrounds, from suburbs to informal settlements. It occurs
amongst young and old couples, married or unmarried. Younger women,
especially teenagers, need more assistance, as their youth puts them
at risk. Middle-class women are also vulnerable, as social status
may deter them from exposing their partners and from seeking legal
recourse.
We are also aware that most of the domestic violence cases take
place amongst the poorest of the poor. These are cases where
families reside in low-cost housing or informal settlements, which
could be characterised by a lack of access to sufficient social
services. Part of the solution therefore is tied to government’s
integrated development strategy.
Key to the strategy is women’s empowerment, which would lead to a
solution in which more women depend less on men for economic
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 42
survival. Another pillar of intervention, and the most effective and
visible so far, is legal recourse.
Among the laws that have made a difference is the Domestic Violence
Act, which has provided much needed ammunition for women in
distress. The statistics for protection orders in domestic violence
cases indicate that more and more women are approaching the courts
for relief. This is an indicator of the effectiveness of publicity
campaigns such as the 16 Days of Activism: No Violence Against Women
and Children campaign.
A high proportion of orders applied for are granted, and the success
rate has been 83% during the past four years. This, in my view,
indicates that the great majority of applications for protection
orders are legitimate. No official statistics are as yet available
for 2004, but most courts have indicated a general increase of
protection orders being required and granted.
The pending Sexual Offences Bill, currently before this House, will
have its own positive impact. It will broaden the definition of
sexual violence and help ensure that heavy sentences are applied to
perpetrators of violence and abuse. Already progress is visible in
this area. Fifty-two sexual offences courts have been established
thus far, and they have proven to be effective.
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 43
The Maintenance Act is another critical intervention. It provides a
level of independence for mothers, as it ensures continued financial
support for the children if they decide to act against abusive
fathers.
We are also aware of the concerns of the public that some officials
in the police service and courts may not as yet be in tune with the
new ethos, and that they are unco-operative when victims approach
them for assistance, viewing domestic violence as a family matter.
We are taking the issue of training seriously in order to change
attitudes, and in this regard we are pleased that we have the
support of the nongovernmental sector.
Ngithanda ukugcizelela ukuthi, njengohulumeni, ngeke siyibekezelele
le ndaba yokuhlukunyezwa komama nezintombi ngabesilisa, abanye babo
kube kungabayeni namasoka. Sithi komama nezintombi, abangesabi
ukuphumela obala, babike emaphoyiseni uma behlukunyezwa noma
beshaywa. Lo hulumeni wentando yeningi unemithetho ebavikelayo futhi
abangayisebenzisa.
Sinxusa omakhelwane nemiphakathi yonke ukuthi le nkinga
bangayithathi njengeyabantu ababili abathandanayo kuphela, kodwa
bayithathe njengenkinga yomphakathi wonke. Bangasiza ngokubiza
amaphoyisa, bangazibi nje benze sengathi abezwa noma ababoni kube
konakala. Kuyasijabulisa-ke ukuthi kwezinye izindawo sekuyenzeka
lokhu.
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 44
Sicela amadoda awungenele lo mkhankaso wokulwa nale nkinga ukuze
acacise ukuthi akusiwona onke amadoda ahlukumeza abantu besifazane.
Lokho kuyokwenza ukuthi nabawenzayo lo mkhuba bawuyeke. (Translation
of Zulu paragraphs follows.)
[I want to emphasise that as the government, we are not going to
tolerate abuse against women and young girls. Some of these
perpetrators are their husbands and boyfriends. We are encouraging
women and young girls that they should not fear to come forward and
report to the police when they are abused or assaulted. This
democratic government has laws that can protect them, and to which
they can seek recourse.
We urge our neighbours and all communities not to treat this problem
as an isolated issue between two lovers only, but to treat it as a
problem for the entire community. Communities can assist by calling
the police, and should not turn a blind eye as if they did not hear
or see while things were getting worse. We appreciate it that in
other communities this is being practised.
We invite men to join this campaign of fighting this problem in
order to show that it is not every man that abuses women. That would
make those who commit this kind act stop it.]
Also forming part of the 16 Days campaign is the protection of
children from all forms of abuse and neglect. When South Africa
ratified the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child in 1996, it
joined the nations of the world and committed itself to creating a
world conducive to children.
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 45
Our young democracy has done exceptionally well in terms of
highlighting and promoting the rights of children. The rights,
development, survival, care and protection of children have shifted
from being a personal or charitable concern, to occupying priority
space on the national political agenda. This has been supported by
widespread legislative and policy reform, including the ratification
of various international policy instruments. These include the
Constitution, with its Bill of Rights; the African Charter on the
Rights and Welfare of Children; the Child Justice Bill; the UN
Convention on the Rights of the Child; the policy on the
transformation of the child and youth care system; the Child Care
Act, to be replaced by new comprehensive child care legislation; the
Convention on the Elimination of the Worst Forms of Child Labour;
the White Paper on Early Childhood Development and the Optional
Protocol on Child Trafficking.
We have an obligation to ensure that all children get the best
possible start in life. In particular we must ensure that children
enjoy the right to be heard, the right to have good health care, the
right to go to school and learn, the right to be loved and protected
from harm, and the right to belong - even when they look different,
for example in terms of complexion, disability or other differences.
As we have said in the Freedom Charter: “There shall be peace and
security”, and as we entrenched this in the Bill of Rights of our
Constitution, all of us have an obligation to work to achieve the
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 46
goal of safety and security for women and children. We urge men and
boys, in particular, to become active in the campaign 16 Days of
Activism: No Violence Against Women and Children, so that we do not
entrench a stigma that South African men are among the worst abusers
in the world.
The majority of men are protective of their families and loved ones,
and this is what we must seek to highlight and promote during this
campaign in order to isolate the perpetrators of these despicable
crimes against women and children. I also trust that hon members
will become actively involved in this campaign, particularly in
their constituencies. We all have a responsibility to act. I thank
you. [Applause.]
Nkskz C I LUDWABE: Sekela-Mhlalingaphambili, Sekela-Mongameli
welizwe namalungu onke ale Ndlu, namhlanje ndima apha phambi kwenu
ukuza kuthetha ngomkhuba ombi wokuxhatshazwa kwamakhosikazi kwakunye
nabantwana.
Ukuxhatshazwa kwamakhosikazi kunye nabantwana ndinokuthi kufikelele
kwinqanaba eliphezulu kweli lizwe jikelele, nto leyo eyenza ukuba
siphulukane nelungelo lokuba sithi sinalo ihlumelo eliza kuba
ziinkokeli zangomso. Ndifuna ukuzekelisa ngesi siganeko sokuxhaxhwa
kwamakhosikazi amane kuCentane, eMpuma Koloni, kufuphi nalapho
ndisuka khona nesivele kumabonakude phezolo.
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 47
Njengoko kulo nyaka umiyo sisithi sibhiyozela iminyaka elishumi
yenkululeko kawonke-wonke, umbuso wentando yesininzi, kumele ze
kutyhilwe ikhasi elitsha ukwenzela ukuba uliwe uncothulwe neengcambu
lo mkhuba mbi wokuxhatshazwa koomama nabantwana.
Kufuneka ukuba urhulumente akhe okanye avule amaziko aliqela
kangangoko apho kunokuthi kufundiswe amakhosikazi, abantwana kunye
nabo bachaphazelekayo ngoxhaphazo, nalapho bangathi balulekwe de
imeko yabo ibe ibuyela esiqhelweni.
Okunye okubalulekileyo kukuba abantu bethu bafundiswe
ukungawatyesheli amasiko nezithethe zabo, nto leyo ekufuneka ibe
ngumphako eliza kuthi iSebe lezeMfundo liwusebenzise njengesikhokelo
xa kuqulunqwa inkqubo yemfundo.
Abantwana bethu kufuneka bakufunde besekumabanga aphantsi oku ukuze
babe nemibono eqaqambileyo ngekamva labo kwaye bayazi imeko
yokuxhatshazwa neyobuhle. Kufuneka singawalibali amagorhakazi ethu
omzabalazo afana noomama uFrancis Matomela, uLillian Ngoyi, uRay
Alexander, uElder Vani, umama uJibiliza, umama uDorothy Zihlangu
nabanye abaninzi ababesilwela le nkululeko siyixhamlayo namhlanje.
Ngothando bazidina bajongana naye wonke umntwana, nokuba ngokabani,
nokuba ngowoluphi na uhlanga. Bona babengazange bakhethe abantu,
bathi lo unesimilo esimnyama, lo unesimhlophe, koko babebaqeqesha
ngokufanayo bonke. La maqhawekazi sithetha ngawo apha ngawo
asivulele neli thuba lokuba sibe namhlanje sihleli kule ndawo.
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 48
Akakho umntu ongalibala okukhe kwenzeka kwiminyaka edlulileyo,
ukudlwengulwa komntwana uTshepang, owayeneenyanga ezilithoba kuphela
ezelwe. Loo nto yakhathaza umzi wonke waseMzantsi Afrika. Abantwana
bethu kufuneka sibabonise uthando ukuze nabo bazibone bengabantu
ababalulekileyo ekuhlaleni yaye beyinxalenye yokuhlala. Isithethi
sakwaNtu sithi, “Umntwana wam ngowakho; umntwana wakho ngowam”.
Ndicinga ukuba lithuba lokuba sisebenze ngoku. Lithuba lokuba
siwulwe lo mkhuba wokuhlaliswa kabuhlungu ngumntu omhlambelayo,
umntu othi uyakuthanda.
Kananjalo simele ukuba siqulunqe iindlela eziza kukhokela ukwakhiwa
kwamaziko okufundisa abantwana bethu ubugcisa; siqulunqe iindlela
ezithile zokusebenza nabantwana ekuhlaleni; sizame ukulwa
ukuthengiswa komsebenzi kubantwana abangaphantsi kweminyaka
eyamkelekileyo yokuphangela. Naleyo into ifuna thina boonozala.
Ootata ngabantu bemfazwe. Abakhathalele mama bengakhathalele naloo
mntwana. Ukukhathalela nje ngalo mzuzu esahleli nawe esithi
uyakuthanda. Xa sele engasakuthandi ubona ngemikhwa yakhe. Abahlali
kufuneka bathabathe inxaxheba kuko konke oku kukhankanyiweyo apha
ngentla. Kufuneka kubekho isikhokelo sokuqulunqwa komqulu
wamalungelo abantwana.
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 49
Ukuxhatshazwa kwamakhosikazi kuba ziindidi ngeendidi. Ufumanisa
ukuba abanye baxhatshazwa ngokwesondo okanye ngokuphathwa gadalala,
ngokudlwengulwa, ngokubethwa okanye ngokosulelwa ngentsholongwane
ngabom, nangezinye iindlela.
Lo mba wobundlobongela unakho ukuchaphazela uqoqosho lwesizwe.
Ndicela ukuba abantu bayeke ukudlwengula iintsana. Omnye udlwengula
usana lwakhe olusandul’ ukuzalwa. Konke oku yinto entsha kumzi
wakwaNtu. Akuzange kwaba nje. Thina bantu bazala abantwana kufuneka
siphakame siwubhinqe ube mfutshane, ootata khe beme ecaleni, ibe
sithi abathatha inxaxheba yokujongana nezi zikhalazo. Oomama bamanye
amazwe nabo kufuneka bazi ukuba ngabo abazisa umntu kweli lizwe,
akukho tata uzala mntwana. Ukuba siyiyekile le ndima sakubonakala
njengamagwala. Amaqhawe ethu awazange ayiyekele into enje ngale.
Ngaloo mazwi bazali, ndithi masiphakame. Malibe linye makhosikazi!
Igama lamakhosikazi!
AMALUNGU AHLONIPHEKILEYO: Malibongwe!
Nkskz C I LUDWABE: Malibongwe!
AMALUNGU AHLONIPHEKILEYO: Igama lamakhosikazi!
Nkskz C I LUDWABE: Wathint’ amakhosikazi!
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 50
AMALUNGU AHLONIPHEKILEYO: Wathint’ imbokotho!
Nkskz C I LUDWABE: Wathint’ imbokotho!
AMALUNGU AHLONIPHEKILEYO: Wathint’ amakhosikazi!
Nkskz C I LUDWABE: Enkosi, Mhlalingaphambili. [Kwaqhwatywa.]
(Translation of Xhosa speech follows.)
[Mrs C I LUDWABE:
Deputy Chairperson, Deputy President of the
country and all other members of the House, today I am standing here
in front of you to speak about the bad habit of abuse of women and
children.
The abuse of women and children, according to me, has reached a high
level in this country generally, and this alone results in us losing
the right to say that we have offspring or progeny that will be the
leaders of tomorrow.
I want to give an example of an incident in which four women were
axed at Centane in the Eastern Province, near where I come from, as
was shown live on television last night.
As we are saying, this year we celebrate 10 years of freedom for
all, a government of majority rule, and we are supposed to turn over
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 51
a new leaf in order to fight and destroy the roots of this evil of
the abuse of women and children.
The government must build or open as many centres as possible at
which women and children, as well all others affected by abuse, can
be trained and at which they can also be rehabilitated until their
conditions return to normality.
Another point of importance is that our people should be taught not
to neglect their traditions and customs, and that fact should be an
issue which the Department of Education will use as a guideline when
designing the way forward in education.
Our children should learn this whilst they are still in the lower
grades so that they can have bright visions about their future,
whilst at the same time making them aware of the fact of abuse and
of beauty.
We must not forget our heroines of the struggle, like
mothers Francis Matomela, Lilian Ngoyi, Ray Alexander, Elder Vani,
mother Jibiliza, mother Dorothy Zihlangu and many others who fought
for this freedom we enjoy today.
With love they made sacrifices and looked after all children
irrespective of whose child it was and regardless of its race or
origin.
They never classified people, they never said the one was
of black character, and the other of white.
They trained or treated
11 NOVEMBER 2004
them all equally.
PAGE: 52
These heroines we speak about here gave rise to
this occasion that caused us to be gathered together here today.
No one could forget what occurred some years ago, namely the rape of
the child called Tshepang, who had been born only nine months
previously.
That thing disturbed the whole community of South
Africa. We must show our children love so that they should also see
themselves as important people in the community and see themselves
as part of the community.
One community speaker once said, “My
child is your child, your child is my child”.
I think it is now time for us to work.
It’s time to fight this evil
of being tortured, ill-treated by a person for whom you wash, a
person who says he loves you.
At the same time we are supposed to devise ways which will lead to
the building of centres to teach our children technology, and to
devise certain ways of working with the children in the community,
trying to fight corruption in respect of jobs being given to
children who are under the prescribed age to be employed.
Fathers are people of war. They do not care for a mother, and
neither do they care for a child.
Such a man only cares for you the
moment he is with you whilst saying he loves you.
loves you, you see this by his actions.
When he no longer
The residents must take
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 53
cognisance of all that has been mentioned above.
There must be a
guideline in compiling a document about the rights of children.
The abuse of women occurs in different ways.
You find some being
sexually abused, and others being violently raped or assaulted or
abused by the transmission of AIDS purposely and by various other
means.
nation.
This issue of violence might affect the economy of the
I ask the people to stop raping babies.
own recently born baby.
nation.
One man raped his
All this is something new to the African
It was never like this before.
We people who give birth to children are supposed to rise up and
show our anger. Fathers should stand aside; it should be we who
shoulder the burden to address the complaints.
Mothers of other
countries must also know that it is they who bring a person into
this world; there is no father who gives birth to a baby.
leave this issue, we shall appear as cowards.
If we
Our pioneers or
champions have never left a thing like this.
By these words, parents, I say, let us stand up. Let women be of one
voice: The name of women!
HON MEMBERS: Let it be praised!
Mrs C I LUDWABE: Let it be praised!
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 54
HON MEMBERS: The name of women!
Mrs C I LUDWABE: You struck women!
HON MEMBERS: You struck a rock!
Mrs C I LUDWABE: You struck a rock!
HON MEMBERS: You struck women!
Mrs C I LUDWABE: Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]]
Mr R COETZEE: Madam Chair, I would like to take this opportunity to
deal frankly with the relationship between gender inequality, the
abuse of women and children and HIV/Aids; because if we are going to
combat HIV/Aids with any success, we need to look reality squarely
in the eye. The reality is that many women and children in South
Africa do not have absolute control over their bodies or their sex
lives. Many lack the economic and social power to say no and when
they do they lack the physical power to enforce their choice.
A woman I know once told me plainly that she simply was not in a
position to insist that her husband use a condom during sex, even
though she knew for a fact that he had a number of other sexual
partners. She rationalised her situation by saying that even if she
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 55
were HIV positive, she could still go on living for 10 years. She
was 27 at the time.
So, we need to recognise, understand and confront the fact that the
struggle for gender equality and the campaign against HIV/Aids are
inextricably linked. We will never succeed in our efforts to test
and treat people living with HIV/Aids unless we change attitudes
towards women. For, among other things, HIV/Aids in South Africa
today is a manifestation of gender inequality.
The fact is that we live in a patriarchal society, a society in
which the formal rights of women and children are not underscored by
universal respect for their autonomy, dignity and worth. That is why
the President was wrong to attack Kathleen Cravero and Charlene
Smith, and accuse them of racism, as he did in ANC Today some weeks
ago. [Interjections.] His comments damaged the cause of gender
equality and the campaign against rape and sexual violence. The fact
is that rape is indeed pervasive in our society.
A survey of 300 000 South African children, published in the latest
edition of the British Medical Journal, found that a quarter of them
believed that girls enjoy rape. A study by the Medical Research
Council found that 15% of men reported having raped or having
attempted to rape their wife or girlfriend in the 10 years prior to
the study. There are a wide variety of other figures that confirm
these findings.
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 56
Just last week the Deputy Minister of Health was reported saying
that the Department of Health is in possession of information, which
shows an alarming number of girls between 2 and 12 years of age who
are HIV-positive, even though they were not born with the virus. The
implication, it was reported, is that these girls may have
contracted the virus as a result of sexual violence.
The first step in overcoming a problem is to acknowledge it. The
President needs to show us, when he opens the campaign this year,
that he fully comprehends the reality of abuse, sexual violence and
rape in our country.
I need to say frankly that the DA is astonished and appalled at the
fact that one of the messages the government has chosen for this
campaign is actually an ANC election slogan. It exhorts us to unite
in a people’s contract.
Now, I think this says something about the ANC’s attitude to
democracy and diversity. Why does the ANC feel the need to divide
where it should try to unite? [Interjections.] Why, on this issue of
all issues, where we could stand together as one country and nation,
does the ANC feel the need to assert its limitless desire for
hegemony?
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 57
I am glad that the Deputy President brought up the Freedom Charter
earlier, because the ANC needs to understand that it does not own
South Africa. [Interjections.] South Africa, it should remember,
“belongs to all who live in it”. [Interjections.] I think the
members on this side of the House will recognise the document from
which those words are drawn. [Interjections.] They can shout as much
as they like. I think the reason they shout so loud is because they
know that what I am saying is true. [Interjections.]
If you want South Africa to unite, don’t impose yourself on other
people. [Interjections.] Don’t disrespect the millions of people in
South Africa who did not vote for the ANC. We would like to work and
stand together to combat the abuse of women and children in South
Africa. [Interjections.] Why does the ANC need to turn it into a
partisan issue when it could be non-partisan? I think it is a
mistake and I think that people who think about it carefully will
agree that it is a mistake.
I wish to conclude with a statement about children. Children are
individual human beings, equal in dignity and worth, even if they
lack the capacity to completely direct their own lives. Children are
not simply extensions of their parents. They are not owned objects.
They do not exist simply for the purposes of adults. They have
purposes of their own. They have legitimate needs and desires and
opinions. Children have a right; they have a right to respect.
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 58
I would like to associate myself with the comments of the previous
speaker in this regard, because I think we agree on that. I would
encourage parents in our country to think very carefully about what
they teach their children. We need to be careful about the way in
which children are disciplined, and that this discipline does not
teach them that violence is an acceptable way to get what you want
or impose your will on others.
I myself do not believe it is right to beat children. I recognise
and accept that others disagree, sometimes very strongly, and I know
that this is a controversial subject, but for that very reason it
needs to be discussed openly. Such a discussion can only lead to
improvement in our sensitivity towards the need of children in our
country. Thank you. [Applause.]
Ms C N Z ZIKALALA: Madam Chairperson, Sixteen Days of Activism!
Women are the foundation of the world. They are the centre from
which goodwill and kindness flows in the world. The strong walls of
our nation have been built from their virtues, wisdom and courageous
efforts. They are the pillars of continuity, which have kept our
world from falling apart since the beginning of time until the
present day.
For centuries they have carried the burdens of the world, making
life more bearable for all of us. Each and everyday, women give the
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 59
gift of life. They raise world-class leaders and are responsible for
an endless cultivation of love, peace and understanding.
Despite the priceless contribution that women have made in the
world, they have countless times been victims of humiliating abuse.
Their tears of sorrow have stained the earth that we walk on, while
their cries of pain and distress because of maltreatment and misery
still echo late in the night.
This abuse against women can be viewed as being symbolic of deeprooted power structures within communities, which still seek to keep
women within the confines of suppression and dependency. Despite
democratic developments in South Africa, many women are still held
back by these hidden power structures that are deeply embedded in
societal cultures and norms.
Today, 10 years into our democracy, children are also victims of
violent crimes and life-shattering abuses. Media reports always
bring to our attention the severity of these violent crimes that are
committed against our children, and highlight the heartless and
deep-seated brutality of these crimes. These reports normally reveal
the anguish and the torment suffered by the children of our nation,
while simultaneously revealing a severe societal ill that is
currently gripping our nation with an iron fist.
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 60
Violence and abuse against women and children do not only affect the
immediate families where they occur. They affect society in its
entirety due to the fact that they entrench an evil syndrome of
degradation that is eroding our society’s already depleted moral
fibre.
It has to be understood and acknowledged that with the HIV-pandemic
on our doorstep, the lives and wellbeing of women and children are
gravely at risk. The HIV-infection rate is therefore also escalated
by these powers and control patterns of maltreatment.
Therefore, on the basis of the principles of democracy, it is our
duty to ensure that the status of women and children is improved in
order to ensure that they can fully enjoy their rights as free
citizens of this country. Dealing with this problem requires unity
of purpose from all corners of this country.
It is our duty, as representatives of the people of South Africa, to
drive this process by actively engaging with our people at community
level and initiating partnerships that will lead to the survival and
recognition of the rights of women and children in this country. I
thank you. [Applause.]
Mr J BICI: Madam Chairperson, Deputy President, hon members, at the
outset allow me to salute Deputy Minister Gillwald for driving this
initiative with commitment and enthusiasm.
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 61
Deputy Minister, you have created an initiative that grows a little
bigger every year, steadily spreading the message that violence
against women and children is an intolerable attack on our freedom
as a nation. We can only hope that we will see the day, not far from
now, when we can raise a toast to the hon Deputy Minister and
celebrate because we no longer need to campaign against this
scourge.
Let us prove to the world that the South African miracle did not end
on 27 April 1994, but that it continues. In the meantime, however,
we must be vigilant. The campaign also depends on men reaching out
to their peers and saying, “We will not tolerate violence against
women and children.” There is no excuse and no justification for
such acts, full stop. No ifs, no buts, no maybes.
In terms of Parliament, there is not only a political majority in
this House, but also a gender majority. As democrats, it is our duty
to play a leadership role to demonstrate that this isn’t a so-called
women’s issue, but a human issue. We must reach across the political
and gender divide and forge a united front opposing violence against
women and children. We can start by fully supporting the campaign
that the hon Deputy Minister has managed so effectively.
Ukugqiba manenekazi namanene,kwabo bathe banegalelo, kwabo bathe
bayixhasa le nkqubo, sibamba ngazibini. Sithi ngxatsho ke, sithi
ukwanda kwaliwa ngumthakathi. sithi nangamso, yanga imisebenzi yenu
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 62
ingazala amaduna namathokazi. Enkosi. [Kuyaqhwatywa.] (Translation
of Xhosa paragraph follows.)
[In conclusion, ladies and gentlemen, to those who participated, who
supported this programme, we say thank you. Well done. I wish you
all the best. We thank you, and wish you the best in all that you
do. Thank you. [Applause.]]
Mr L W GREYLING: South Africa is reported to have the highest
statistics on gender-based violence in the world for a country not
at war, and all of us are repulsed by the reports of babies as young
as three years old being raped.
The ID feels that a nation which does not protect its women and
children does not deserve to be called a nation. We simply have to
do more to end this violence.
Legislative reforms are under way to address the inefficiencies in
the criminal justice system, but these reforms have taken far too
long. It is also not only legislation that needs to be reformed, but
the attitude of society and the way in which this problem is
handled.
The justice system in South Africa is often cold and insensitive to
the plight of women who are trapped in this cycle of violence.
Perpetrators are often let out on cheap bail, only to come back and
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 63
torment the same women again. In court, women are forced to sit next
to their abusers in a room, allowing them to be harassed and
intimidated all over again.
We can and we must do better than this. There needs to be a total
onslaught against perpetrators who exercise violence against women
and children. Activism must start in the homes, since this is where
the abuse occurs.
We need to break the silence around this issue and empower women and
children with knowledge of their sexual rights. Communities must
also not protect their family members who are guilty of women and
child abuse, but report them to the police. Women need to be
economically empowered so that they do not become dependent on an
abusive relationship.
The ID would also argue for greater support for women in the form of
more subsidised shelters and safe houses. A dedicated fund for
vulnerable victim services must be set up which can be funded from
the proceeds of asset seizures of organised crime. Also, all
survivors of rape must be tested for HIV/Aids and emergency
antiretroviral treatment must be made available to them.
Ultimately, though, there is a need to shift mindsets away from the
culture of violence and create communities where people trust and
respect each other and feel confident in reporting violent
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 64
incidents, knowing that the perpetrators will be arrested and
prosecuted, and where children will no longer see violence as normal
in our society.
The responsibility for eradicating violence against women lies not
only with government, but also with communities in the entire South
African society. The ID is ready to play its part in eradicating
this scourge from our society, and I hope all the members can join
us in that. Thank you.
Mr L S GABELA: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Deputy President and
members of Parliament, 16 Days of Activism: No Violence Against
Women
is
an
international
campaign
centred
around
awareness
of
violence against women. The spate of violence against children in
our country has necessitated that our focus be extended to include
children,
particularly
the
girl-child.
Today
our
struggle
has
entered a new epoch, having defeated the system of racism.
Youth must proceed to occupy the front rank in the struggle for the
reconstruction and development of our country to defeat of poverty
and underdevelopment. In a bid to create a nonracial, nonsexist,
democratic and prosperous society, South Africa’s problems will not
have been addressed as enshrined in South Africa’s Constitution if
the problems faced by women are not fully addressed. Maybe in simple
terms, simple mathematics insists that women alone form the majority
of our population. Therefore, you will not be able to address the
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 65
problems of the country if the problems that face the majority are
not fully addressed.
During the year of the volunteer for reconstruction and development,
our country’s youth responded enthusiastically to the call, together
with the rest of our people, to volunteer for reconstruction and
development. Today we certainly cannot doubt that our youth fully
accept the immense responsibility placed upon them to work alongside
the government and all South Africans to make a meaningful impact in
the fight against women and child abuse. As a generation destined to
build a firm foundation for a better life for all, young people must
play an active role in the fight against crimes committed against
women and children. Young people cannot stand by when revolutionary
advancements thus far are deliberately being rendered meaningless to
society. There should, from now on, be greater awareness within
communities with regard to women and child abuse-related issues. Let
us mobilise society to address the problems of abuse against women
and
children.
Young
people
must
take
upon
themselves
the
responsibility to engage both young and old men in the discourse
about combating domestic violence, in particular, wherever it is a
red herring.
As
we
embrace
cultural
African
stereotypes
values,
and
we
practices
need
that
to
.
discourage
.
.
so-called
perpetuate
the
subjugation of women to the supremacy of men, here including sexual
relations. Only then can we overcome domestic violence and abuse of
11 NOVEMBER 2004
women
and
PAGE: 66
children.
These
stereotypes
are
encouraging
the
backwardness that will deprive young women of the opportunity to
empower themselves towards being competitive in the labour market.
Evaluations of the family exist, saying that women have always been
the core of the family. It is an unnatural thing that women are
still, in this day and age, victims of abuse to the degree that they
are today. Towards the end of the time when people lived separate
lives in a state of matriarchy in human development, women were the
heads
of
families.
And
yet
men
were
only
hunting
barbarians.
[Laughter.] Men only dominated the family because they had economic
power. They could hunt, and they could run fast and so on. It is not
that they were in charge of families. In recent history, one can
refer to the role of Queen Modjadji.
uMkabayi kaJama neNgcugce abenqaba ukuthi amadoda amadala aneminyaka
engama-60 aganwe yizingane ezincane nje ezisanda kuthomba. Bathi
abayingeni leyo nto. [ Mkabayi, Jama’s daughter and “the Ngcugce”
were the ones who rejected the notion that old men aged 60 should
marry young girls who have just entered puberty. They said that they
were not prepared to entertain such a practice.]
This all speaks to a positive contribution by women in our history.
Human
rights
are
not
men’s
rights.
Women
are
included.
[Interjections.]
Mfundisi, angizwanga ukuthi uthini. [ Mfundisi, I did not hear what
you said.]
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 67
The availability of women to their male friends for dates or at
centres of entertainment should not make men see or hear what had
not been said only because they want to hear it from the female
folk. If young women enjoy themselves, and sometimes to the extreme,
which may include getting intoxicated sometimes, this should not be
used to their disadvantage. Let men respect women and take women at
their word. Men need not read into the actions of women what women
have not articulated verbally, and this goes for young people in
rural
areas,
urban
areas
and
those
young
men
at
tertiary
institutions in particular. I am saying in tertiary institutions in
particular, because this is where date rapes mostly take place.
Young women must be treated as fellow students and be protected, as
they
deserve
to
be.
The
contrary
must
not
be
encouraged.
Hon
Chairperson, I speak on these issues with some degree of authority
as a father of 10 young girls. [Interjections.]
Kunezinto-ke okufanele sikhulume ngazo maqondana nokuthi kumele
ziyekwe ikakhulukazi ngoba azakhi, futhi aziqukethe iqiniso
elihambisana nosikompilo. Umuntu wesilisa akungathi uma ngabe umuntu
wesifazane engakasho waphumela obala ukuthi uthini ngodaba lwabo
yena bese ebona ukuthi kungenzeka mhlawumbe ukuthi lo wesifazane
yingoba nakhu egcwele amahloni, ngaleyo ndlela akakwazi ukuthi
akusho lokho okufanele. Lowo wesilisa bese ebona ukuthi, “Hhayi,
mina angithathe izinyathelo ngokomzimba ukuze ngimlekelele lo muntu
sihlangane lapho kufanele ukuthi sificane khona”. Bese kulokhu
kuthiwa-ke, hhayi, kakade “Action speaks louder than words”. Ayikho
leyo ndaba. (Translation of Zulu paragraph follows)
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 68
[There are practices that we need to talk about and that we need to
resolve to stop, because they are not constructive, they are not
fair and they are lacking in terms of social welfare. Men should
stop assuming that if a woman does not come up with a final answer,
then it means that that woman is shy and thereby means consent. Then
the man will decide to help this woman by arranging a place where
they can meet. When a woman honours the appointment, it is assumed
that she wanted it. They even say, “Actions speak louder than
words”. There is no such thing.]
A date is a date and it must be limited to that. No means no, and
nothing else but no.
To young women in particular, I want to say:
Asiyiyeke futhi le nto yokuthi uma ngabe umuntu wesilisa ehlukumeza
umuntu wesifazane, emshaya, bese abantu bekhohlisana bethi, “Hhayi
kusho ukuthi udlala uthando. Ukuthi nje uxakwe yisikhwele”. Ayikho
into enjalo. Umuntu okuhlukumezayo kufanele ukwazi ukuthi umbike
kwabomthetho ukuze aboshwe ngoba kusuke kuwukuhlukunyezwa lokho.
Awukho umuzi owakhiwa ngenduku; alukho futhi uthando oluqiniswa
ngenduku. Kunezigameko-ke eziningi ezenzakalayo okufanele ziqedwe.
(Translation of Zulu paragraph follows.)
[We should also refrain from the general belief that when a man
abuses and assaults a woman it is because he loves her, and he is
jealous. That is not true. If a person abuses you, report that
person to the police so that he can be arrested. Assault is not an
instrument to build a family, nor can assault strengthen love. There
are so many incidents of violence which should be stopped.]
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 69
I wish to call on young people to join the ANC Youth League, as
guided
by
its
congress
on
the
activities
it
is
engaged
in,
in
encouraging young people to take part in activism against the abuse
of young women and children.
In
conclusion,
I
wish
to
address
hon
Coetzee
and
hon
Greyling.
Chairperson, you will forgive me, this is my maiden speech and I
happen to divert from the Westminster traditions. The problem we
have is that people read the wrong books and stand up here proudly
and articulate things that are wrong. What the British journal as
referred to by hon Coetzee talks about is the situation of South
Africa, but it does not talk about the situation of the UK. South
Africa, hon Greyling, is not leading in matters of women and child
abuse. If I could refer you to a South African journal survey of
2003-04, you will find that America is leading with actual numbers
of about 81 442, South Africa is next, followed by France, and the
UK is last. I thank you. Read the correct books. Thank you very
much.
An HON MEMBER: Is the hon member prepared to take a question?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Member, it is your maiden
speech; however, would you like to take a question?
Mr L S GABELA: Chairperson, I am not prepared to take a question. I
can give the hon member a copy of my speech.
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 70
Ms C B JOHNSON: Madam Chair, hon Deputy President, hon members, the
16 Days of Activism campaign, which commences on the 25th of this
month, shows government’s commitment to building a caring society; a
society that very clearly sends a message that it rejects violence
against women and children. Recent research by Amnesty International
has found that in South Africa, on average, 147 women are raped per
day, and it is estimated that every six days a woman is killed
either by her spouse or her life partner.
Violence affects all South Africans, but in my view it affects women
most severely. What is particularly disturbing is to know that the
majority of the violent incidents in this country, which happen
against women and children, happen in the family home itself, and
that the perpetrators are, mostly, known by the victims. In other
words, it is the people that they trust who are doing these things
to them.
Although all of us as South Africans share the commitment to
building a nonracist and nonsexist society, until the day that all
women feel safe in their homes, at their places of work, at their
schools, and in society at large, South Africa will, unfortunately,
remain an unequal society. The purpose of the 16 Days of Activism
campaign is to generate increased levels of awareness of the
unacceptability of violence against women and children. It seeks to
raise funds for NGOs, who do valuable work in our communities by
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 71
providing shelter and support to the victims and survivors of
domestic abuse.
The campaign also further actively seeks to engage with men about
combating violence in our homes and in our communities. In its
commitment to fighting violence against women and children,
government will continue to form strategic partnerships, because
this is not something that government can tackle on its own. It
needs to form, and will continue to form, strategic partnerships
with civil society, business, organised labour, faith-based
organisations, and other sectoral partners, to help empower
survivors and victims of abuse and to sensitise them with regard to
their rights.
The campaign should not be seen in isolation. It is part of a bigger
government initiative and part of the bigger picture. If one looks
at the bigger picture, it is clear that government is continuously
looking at new legislation to put on the table, to further protect
and promote the rights of women and children. Bills like the Child
Justice Bill, the Sexual Offences Bill, the Children’s Bill, and the
Compulsory HIV Testing of Alleged Sexual Offenders Bill, will go a
long way in creating the caring society that we all want to achieve.
I thank you.[Applause.]
Rev K R J MESHOE: Chairperson and hon Deputy President, the ACDP
supports the call for action against the abuse of women and
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 72
children, but feels that more should be done than just demonstrating
again for 16 days and nights. We need a sustained onslaught against
this abuse in our legislation and justice systems. Many in our
communities do not heed the calls to refrain from violence, because
our national broadcaster promotes programmes that break down
traditional family values, and desensitises our communities to
violence.
The public needs more programmes that will promote decency and
respect for women than those that undermine them. South Africa has a
dubious reputation of being the child pornography and child
prostitution capital of the world, with a vibrant child sex tourism
trade. Paedophiles and child sex offenders are still getting off
with light sentences in our justice system, with some judges even
sighting incest or familial sexual abuse as less traumatic than
abuse perpetrated by a stranger, and therefore deserving of a lesser
sentence. We find this unacceptable.
According to the South African Law Reform Commission report, South
Africa is one of the main countries being used as a destination for
victims of human trafficking. They also point out that police and
prosecutors are not sufficiently trained to deal with human
trafficking. The ACDP therefore calls on government to have
intensive training for our police and prosecutors, to ensure that
sexual offenders get maximum penalties when their cases appear
before the courts.
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 73
In closing, we call on all women who are victims of rape, violence,
or sexual abuse, not to allow the unfortunate experiences to keep
them from reaching their maximum potential. In spite of what may
have happened to them, their value has not diminished and their
contribution in the building of a strong nation is indispensable. We
thank those who are already nation builders, and we want to honour
them for their contribution, regardless of their painful
experiences.
May those who are not victims of abuse stand alongside those victims
who are battling with emotional scars and urge them on. Thank you.
Mr I S MFUNDISI: Chairperson and hon members, modern society demands
that all people, regardless of their gender and age, should be
treated with love and respect, as they are all created in the image
of God. No one has to play master over others, but unfortunately
there are people who suffer at the hands of some. Women and children
are the most vulnerable. There are many instances in which we learn
of, and see, women being brutally assaulted.
Cases that come to mind are those of Leigh Matthews, a former
student of Bond University, and Constable Rasuge of Hammanskraal.
These are not the only ones, but this shows that Robert Burns’
words, “Man’s inhumanity to man, makes countless thousands mourn”,
will always be here to haunt us.
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 74
It is regrettable that in spite of the stringent legislation, the
Domestic Violence Act, such bestial conduct persists. What makes it
more lamentable is that the National Commissioner of Police is on
record as saying that the Act is not enforceable. We call on all men
of substance to accept that women are roses and men are the fences
around them.
Men should feel proud if they render a service to protect women. Our
parents of yore have always maintained that a woman has to be
treated with the greatest respect. That is why when a young man ties
the knot they would sing the song:
O mo tshware hantle ke galase e a thubeha. [Treat her with great
care, she is as brittle as a glass.]
If most women suffer at the hands of men, children are the worst, as
they are subjected to inhuman treatment from both men and women.
There is almost no day that goes by without a report to the effect
that some innocent baby has been abandoned in a refuse bin, or even
a pit latrine, let alone those abandoned in an open field. Women are
committing all these atrocious acts.
We need to call on society at large to take to heart the United
Nations’ declaration, which states that mankind owes a child the
best it has to give. As adults, we have a duty and a responsibility
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 75
towards children. Pastor Tinyiko Nyathi, who has taken it upon
himself to raise awareness about child abuse, has to be commended
and emulated.
The latest South African survey of the South African Institute of
Race Relations reports that since 1994 to 2003 there has been a
56,3% increase in reported child abuse cases in this country. The
only province that showed a decrease over this period is the Eastern
Cape. In provinces such as the Free State, Mpumalanga, North West
and Northern Cape, child abuse cases rose by 100% during the period
under review. In the Northern Cape it stood at 171,9%. What about
South Africa? Why do we wreck the future nation? It may please us to
know that children are the most valuable natural resource.
In conclusion, we in the UCDP look forward to the day when people
convicted of sexual offences against children will be entered on a
special paedophile register that will be accessible to the general
public so that naming them may shame them. I thank you.
Dr S E M PHEKO: Madam Chair, during the campaign 16 Days of
Activism: Unite Against Woman and Child Abuse, we must reflect on
the state of our nation and recall the many layers of violence being
experienced by women and girls in this country. Physical violence,
rape, domestic violence and child abuse are too many manifestations
of violence against women and girls. There is emotional violence;
verbal abuse; degrading and offensive comments, including from
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 76
strangers on the street; the threat of physical violence in and out
of the home; and the offensive media imagery which degrades women.
There is also economic violence, which is manifested in social,
structural and systematic arrangements.
The Free Trade Areas being negotiated through Economic Partnership
Agreements and the World Trade Organisation resulted in women
working in poor working conditions. Because these conditions are not
regulated and do not comply with domestic labour legislation, women
work long hours, get poor pay, get poor benefits, including
maternity leave.
Women have given birth in factories and on farms. They are exposed
to the risk of miscarriage owing to exposure to harmful pesticides,
experience a high risk of delivering children who have chronic or
health conditions such as asthma and lung disease, and have the
stress of working under very insecure and precarious conditions.
The privatisation of education closes the opportunities for lowincome families to access education. This means that parents have to
choose which child to invest in, with the boy-child usually taking
preference over his sisters. This results in our girl-children
starting life at a disadvantage educationally, professionally,
economically, etc, with the likelihood of being forced into low-paid
work owing to limited educational qualifications. That is why the
PAC insists on free education, especially for the poor.
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 77
Economic violence should also be examined. With regard to the
protection of assets one must guard against the practice of family
inheritance, which leaves the widow and her children destitute and
socially stigmatised.
The separation of families to seek work is a continuing social
problem as women go to factories, farms and kitchens to seek work,
leaving their children and husbands behind. This results in the
abuse of children by the relatives the children are left with. We
must fight all forms of violence against women and children. I thank
you. Izwelethu![Our country!]
Ms S RAJBALLY: Malibongwe! [Praise!] [Interjections.] Igama
lamakhosikazi! [Name of women!] [Interjections.] Thank you, Madam
Chair, Deputy President. To the hon Gabela I say: Congratulations on
a maiden speech well done. [Applause.]
It is very nice to know and hear from the hon Coetzee of the DA that
South Africa belongs to all who live in it. Yes, it does, but only
since 1994 and not before. Thanks to the ANC government for giving
South Africa to all who live in it. [Applause.]
Coming back to my speech, the 16 Days of Activism campaign is
approximately 10 years old and is supported globally. Taking into
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 78
consideration the seriousness of violence against women, this
campaign is supported one hundred percent by the MF.
Violence against women and children is a major concern, and a
concerted effort to stamp it out has been embarked upon. The 16 days
of activism is a sure way of creating greater awareness of genderbased violence, which is a serious contravention of human rights.
This fight against violence against women should be seen as part of
a global effort, and this campaign is our means of linking to this
global fight.
A number of events have been set from 25 November to 10 December,
and it is hoped that everyone will make an effort to partake in
these events to equip us with the tools to combat gender violence
and to voice our support to stamp it out.
Women have suffered in all spheres of life: at home, at work, in
communities, from discrimination, from unfair labour practices, from
abuse, and not only have they been abused but they have also been
used. We women have tolerated enough. We say: “Enough is enough”.
The abuse of women and children must stop; not tomorrow, not today,
but now. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Ms P TSHWETE: Thank you, Madam Chair. Deputy President, hon
Ministers, Deputy Ministers and members, as we celebrate 10 years of
democracy we should, as women, be very proud to say that women in
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 79
South Africa are protected from all forms of abuse. The legislation
that is in place has given women back their dignity and brought
democracy to our homes. Be that as it may, we still experience these
abuses.
The President of the ANC Women’s League, Nosiviwe Mapisa–Nqakula,
said when she was the Deputy Minister of Home Affairs at the opening
of IKhaya leThemba centre for victims of domestic violence in March
2004, and I quote:
Even as we celebrate the maturity of our Women’s Charter, we
are aware that many women are still experiencing domestic abuse
and public violence every day. We are alive to the many socioeconomic factors that contribute to the perpetuation of these
violent crimes against women and children.
This is a reality that many women across the world live with, even
in some of our most advanced democracies. However, I must
acknowledge some of the positive steps that have been taken that
lead us in the direction of hope here in South Africa.
Why should we, as the ANC-led government, take violence against
women and children seriously? It is because it is internationally
recognised as a major human rights violation. In recognition of
this, the UN General Assembly adopted the Declaration on the
Elimination of Violence Against Women and also appointed South
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 80
Africa as a Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women in 1994.
The Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination
Against Women, Cedaw, to which South Africa is a signatory, noted in
1992 that gender discrimination includes gender violence.
In 1997, an interdepartmental team of people began to work together
to draw up a document that became known as the uniform guidelines
for dealing with rape and other sexual offences. Since then, there
have been many other interventions by the state to combat genderbased violence and abuse. In 1998, the first SADC conference on
violence against women was held in Durban, and it adopted a
declaration that remains the yardstick of gender-based violence
issues in most, if not all, SADC countries.
The Domestic Violence Act of 1998, which provides South Africa with
its first legal definition of violence, includes physical abuse. . .
. . . ukubethwa koomama, mhlawumbi bengenzanga nto; ukuzithathela
isondo. Unalo ilungelo lokuthi hayi. Kanti nokuba utshatile,
kufuneka kubekho uvumelwano kwinto yonke; ukuxhatshazwa
ngokwasemphefumlweni nasengqondweni, nezinye iindlela-ndlela.
Sihlalo, masiyibulele inxaxheba ethatyathwe ngurhulumente ophetheyo
ngokuthi awanike amalungelo amakhosikazi, awafundise ukuze azi xa
exhatshazwa.
11 NOVEMBER 2004
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Ndifuna ukuthi gqaba gqaba ndicacise mhlophe ukuba asingoomama bodwa
abaxhatshazwayo. Uninzi lootata aluthethi. Aluthandi kuthetha. Uye
ubone ngezimbo kwabanye. Mhlawumbi indoda ingangathandi ukugoduka xa
ivela emsebenzini, isuke ithande ukugoduka ebusuku sele kulelwe
ekhaya. Enye isela kakhulu.
Nalapha koomama kubakho abayamkelayo into yokubethwa beyenza ngathi
lisiko kuba becenga umendo. Boomama nootata, thethani xa kukho ezi
ngxaki. Urhulumente uzibonile yena iingxaki ezibangela ukuba oomama
nootata babe ngamaxhoba.
Ngaba enye yazo kukungabi nazindlu ezibizwa ngabo, nto eyenza ukuba
umntu axolele ukubethwa? Yiyo loo nto kubalulekile ukuba oomama babe
nelungelo lokufumana izindlu.
Yintoni ekufanele siyenze thina malungu ePalamente? Kufuneka
siqokelele amaqela oomama kwiindawo esihlala kuzo. Umama uZanele
Mbeki sele wasiqalela ngokuthi ahlanganise amakhosikazi eAfrika
iphela. Wayibona ukuba le asingxaki yoMzantsi Afrika kuphela koko
yeyeAfrika iphela. Masilande ekhondweni, makhosikazi. Masizithathe
nezootata iingxaki ngoba nabo bayadlwengulwa ngoomama. [Uwele-wele.]
Ulutsha luneengxaki nangaphezu kwethu bazali. Ukudutyulwa kwabo
ngabalingane ngomnye wemizekelo. Kambe ndiyafuna ukubuyela kule
ngxaki yootata. Ootata abakhoyo ngabantu abantloni. Abathandi
ukuthetha xa bedlwengulwe ngoomama. Thina ke singoomama sithetha
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 82
phandle. Kanti ke bootata sifuna nize ngaphambili. Musani ukuthula.
Thethani ukuze sinincede. [Kwahlekwa.]
Phaya ekuhlaleni sinengxaki xa kufuneka sithethe nootata singoomama.
Umzekelo, ukuba ndinokuqokelela ootata bangathi kukho into etyhulu
apha kum. Xa ufuna ukwenjenjalo kufuneka ufune omnye utata oza
kuqokelela abanye ootata asabele iingxaki zabo. (Translation of
Xhosa paragraphs follows.)
[. . . the unreasonable beating of women, sex without consent,
together with emotional and psychological abuse. Women have a right
to say no. Even in marriage there must be agreement in everything.
Speaker, let us be grateful to the ANC-led government for making
women aware of their rights.
I briefly want to highlight that it is not women alone who are
abused, but men as well. Men are silent about the abuses they
endure. Their plight will be shown by their bad behaviour, for
example coming home late or drinking liquor heavily.
There are women who allow suffering as a result of abuse because
they say that it is part of the culture in African marriages. People
must talk about these occurrences. The government has recognised
some reasons for the abuse of women and men.
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 83
Might it be the lack of ownership of houses that makes victims
subservient? This is the reason why women must have the right to own
houses. What must be the duty of members of Parliament? We must
gather women together and let them be told about their rights. Let
us follow on Mrs Zanele Mbeki’s initiative of gathering African
women because she saw the abuse of women on the African continent as
a problem. Men’s problems must be looked at, as they suffer abuse as
well. [Interjections.]
Youth is in a greater predicament than parents. Their partners take
their lives.
I would like to emphasise the issue of men as victims of abuse. They
tend to be quiet about their sufferings. Contrary to men, women are
vocal. [Laughter.]
In our communities being a woman and summoning men to a meeting is a
problem because they will never come and will label a woman as not
being stable. In order to get men’s attention as women you must ask
other men.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M DOIDGE): Order! Hon member, are you
rising on point of order?
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PAGE: 84
Mnu M B SKOSANA: Cha, bengithanda ukubuza nje… [Mr M B SKOSANA: No,
I just wish to put a question . . .]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M DOIDGE): Hon member, you have to ask
the Chair whether the speaker who is at the podium will take a
question.
Mr M B SKOSANA: Would you take a question?
Nksz P TSHWETE:
Ewe, ndiyabawela ukuwuthatha. [Kwahlekwa.] [Ms P
TSHWETE: Yes, I am tempted to take a question [Laughter.]]
Mnu M B SKOSANA: Ngazile ukuthi uzowuthatha ngoba siyazana.
[Kwahlekwa.] Bengifuna ukubuza nje ukuthi yini udadewethu uma ethi
“obaba” angabheki ngale kodwa abheke ngapha ngakithi? [Uhleko.]
Manje angazi-ke noma mhlawumbe uqondise kithina yini. [Uhleko.]
(Translation of Zulu paragraph follows.)
[Mr M B SIKOSANA: I knew that you would take it because we know each
other. [Laughter.] I just wanted to ask why my sister looks in our
direction, and not the other direction, when she says ‘‘fathers’’.
[Laughter.] And now I do not know whether she is referring to us.
[Laughter.]]
Nksz P TSHWETE: Hayi ndicela uxolo, lungu elihloniphekileyo. Ndibone
ngathi uninzi lootata lukweli cala, hayi kweliya. Andiyazi ke le
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 85
yokwazana. Mhlawumbi kuya kufuneka ukuba khe ityetyiswe.
[Kwahlekwa.]
Xa ndigqibezela, maqabane, ndifuna ukuthi masikhuthaze urhulumente
ukuba akhe iindawo zokunceda abantu bethu kwiindawo esihlala kuzo.
Ewe, urhulumente uzamile, kodwa ke la maxhoba awanazindawo, ngakumbi
phaya ezilalini. Sifikelela njani koomama ezilalini? Siyazi ukuba
imithetho imiselwe yaze yaphunyezwa. Masiboneni ukuba xa sifikile
kubantu esinyulelwe bona siza kuyigqithisa njani le miyalezo
sithetha ngayo apha.
Okokugqibela, ndifuna ukuncoma amakhosikazi oMzantsi Afrika,
ngakumbi awasebenza ukususela ku-1994, nawenza ukuba kubekho le
mithetho. Kambe kukho into awayiphosayo nendifuna ukuyibongoza,
yokuba kufuneka sikhuthaze amadoda ukuba abachaze abantwana bawo
phambi kokuba asweleke, ngoba kubuhlungu ukubona emngcwabeni
umntwana womntu ehleli phaya ngasemva abe esazi ukuba nguyise lo ibe
inkosikazi yaloo tata ibingakhange ixelelwe ngale nyewe. Luxhaphazo
lwabantwana olo. Kuyenzeka ukuba utata ahlale ejijeka yinto yokuba
enabantwana ngaphandle komtshato yaye engazi ukuba uza kubondla
ngantoni. Siyacela ke ukuba aba tata mababachaze abantwana babo
phambi kokulishiya eli limiweyo, bangasixakekisi bakubhubha.
[Kwaqhwatywa.]
Ndithe xa ndiyiphakamisa le nyewe, kwathiwa abantu baza kucinga
ukuba nditsho kowam. Kanti hayi, anditsho kowam.
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 86
Makhosikazi, niyidlalile indima yenu ukususela ngo-1994,
mandinincome. Nasuka naya kukhusela uAmina Lawal kuxhaphazo. Ninawo
amandla okuqokelela ilizwekazi leAfrika lonke. Namhlanje iingxaki
zeAfrika ziphela zisingathelwa eMzantsi Afrika. Phambili
maqobokazana! Siyayibona imisebenzi yenu! Siyabulela. Kambe sithi
yiyani nasezilalini. [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs
follows.)
[Ms P TSHWETE: I ask for pardon, hon member. At a glance I saw that
most of the men were seated this side. I do not understand the issue
of knowing each other. I would appreciate it if you could expatiate
on that. [Laughter.]
In conclusion, comrades, we must encourage government to build
support centres for victims of abuse in our communities. Government
has tried its best, but there is still a lack of centres in the
rural areas. Let us work hard to implement legislation and maintain
our constituencies.
Finally, I want to show a sense of appreciation to the women of
South Africa and more especially those who were in government since
1994 and helped in the making of legislation. Nevertheless, there is
an issue that has been overlooked, and that is the issue of children
born out of wedlock. Men must be encouraged to disclose the issue of
these children to their wives before they die.
It becomes sad for
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 87
children to attend funerals without being known by the wives, and
that is child abuse. [Applause.]
When I raised this matter, it was said that people might think that
I was referring to my marriage. I am not.
Women have played their role since 1994, and they must be
appreciated. They went to fight for Amina Lawal against abuse. They
have the power to put together the whole of the African continent.
Today, the African continent’s concerns are held in South Africa.
Forward, women! We recognise your efforts. But we say, visit the
rural areas as well. [Applause.]]
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon Deputy Chair,
comrade Deputy President and hon colleagues, I was going to say that
every year, the 16 Days of Activism campaign offers South Africans
from all walks of life an opportunity to do the one thing that we as
South Africans do very well; that is working together to find
solutions to common problems.
It is unfortunate that the hon Coetzee’s input has soured the mood
somewhat. His impulse to score political points at any cost is
regrettable. He clearly does not understand that this campaign
transcends politics, religion, culture and all the other differences
that define our society.
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 88
The campaign documentation that the hon Coetzee referred to elicits
the support of all the members of this House. It is not in the
slightest bit prescriptive but rather encourages the supporters of
the campaign to find creative ways to encourage greater awareness
and to promote a national resistance to women and child abuse. He
has the nerve to accuse the ANC of being divisive. The member has
detracted from the spirit of this occasion. It is a real shame on
the member, a shame on his party and a shame on his ilk.
The Department of Correctional Services, as government’s leading
department, has been tasked by the Presidency to co-ordinate the
national campaign. This implies the delivery of a campaign with an
increasingly broader reach than in all preceding years. The success
of our previous campaigns has been attributed to the formation of
strategic partnerships between government, society, business and a
variety of other valued sectoral partners, all united by a common
cause to eradicate the abuse of women and children.
Over the past months, our department has been working with the
Presidency, the Moral Regeneration Movement and other sectoral
partners, to develop a national calendar of events that we hope will
resonate throughout an even broader South African community, across
the urban and rural divide.
Such a wide range of activities has been organised by role players
that one simply cannot be excused from finding, at least, one way to
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PAGE: 89
participate in this process. This year’s calendar of events reflects
the diversity of the audiences to which we must speak. It ranges
from workshops in community centres at assorted venues to an imbizo
with the traditional leaders, hosted by the Limpopo province.
So too, we have tried to use technology to bridge the digital divide
by engaging urban and rural women across the SADC region, to our
cyber dialogues project. Gender Links, supported by the GCIS,
Correctional Services and strategic partners in the private sector
will run daily chat room sessions with communication nodes across
the SADC region.
It is an ambitious project and, already, facilitators have been
trained to engage their respective communities and to formulate the
inputs that will be made to a panel of experts on a daily basis for
the duration of the 16 days. The Johannesburg metro, under the
stewardship of executive mayor, the hon A Masondo, has provided
enthusiastic support for this project.
In addition to other regional facilitators, Gender Links has also
trained Gauteng-based councillors for this purpose. The councillors
will bring their ward-based inputs to the cyber dialogues, each one
of them contributing to the richness and depth of the discussion.
The question is often asked: what can I do to support this
programme? It is for this reason that we always try to provide an
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interactive element in our campaign, in which government’s programme
is used to raise funds for NGOs working with victims and survivors
of violence.
Our Postcard Pledge campaign provides an opportunity for the general
public to make a real difference, just by signing the no violence
campaign. The South African Post Office has produced 800 000 pledge
postcards that will become available in 500 post offices around the
country from 17 November; that’s next Wednesday. Members of the
public can sign the pledges and place the postcards in the
specifically designated boxes provided for this purpose at the
participating post offices.
To sweeten the deal, Transnet has sponsored R1 per signature for the
250 000 signatures collected. This money will be distributed via the
Foundation for Human Rights to NGOs working with victims of
violence. The signed postcards will be collected and displayed on a
huge wall of solidarity at the cyber dialogue venue at the civic
centre.
The daily growth of this wall will be monitored by the press as the
anticipated commitment to the pledge develops and the participation
of the public swells. As members of Parliament, you can arrange
pledge ceremonies with your local post office in your community,
when you return home for constituency work.
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To mark the advent of the campaign, we are delighted to hear from
the Deputy President that President Mbeki has agreed to deliver the
keynote address at our launch ceremony in Port Elizabeth on 25
November. Here, I must thank the Premier of the Eastern Cape, who
has placed a considerable capacity of her office at the disposal of
the team that is organising the event.
Both this event and the closing ceremony planned for Mitchells Plain
on 10 December in Cape Town have been characterised by close cooperation between the three spheres of government. I would like to
thank, particularly, the executive mayors of Cape Town and Port
Elizabeth for their unreserved co-operation.
In our effort to popularise the message of no violence, we have
identified men and boys as singularly important partners in this
campaign. It is both unhelpful and, I might add, inaccurate to cast
men as the constant perpetrators and perpetual enemies of women and
children. It also alienates those many good men who are committed to
peace and non-violence.
This campaign will make every effort to convince men and boys of the
essential positive role that they have to play in putting an end to
this scourge. The formation of NGOs and professional organisations
dedicated to ensuring that men and boys become proactive partners in
the elimination of gender-based violence is a welcome and growing
trend.
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The challenge for us as South Africans is how to take this campaign
beyond its 16 days and to make sure that ours is a national effort
to combat violence for 365 days each year.
I would agree with one of the hon members’ inputs that the best
place to start is at home. In this, the international year of the
family, we should all convey the message through our own behaviour
that peace begins in the home. During these coming 16 days of
activism, we should take stock of our individual commitments to
ending domestic violence, in terms of the way that we raise our sons
and daughters and in the way in which we relate to one another in
our homes. It is at home that the children learn the value of
respect and dignity. They also learn and develop ideas by observing
us, their parents, and in the way in which society views and treats
its women.
To commemorate the year of the family, the Department of Housing
will be building 16 houses for 16 women in 16 days, using the sweat
equity of prison inmates who have committed to giving back to the
communities from which they came. [Applause.]
Another constituency that is being drawn into the campaign is our
mineworkers. In a unique participation effort between the Department
of Minerals and Energy, the National Union of Mine Workers and the
Chamber of Mines, an event has been arranged in Rustenburg to draw
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that constituency into engaging with the issues of women and child
abuse.
It is important that this campaign is driven on the basis of
partnership and collaboration. Together, we must expose more people
to the vicious and debilitating effect of violence, not only on
women and children but also on whole societies. Our effort each year
must convince more people to take a stand and to become proactive
agents of change and partners in the elimination of all forms of
gender-based and child directed violence.
Apart from the obvious moral imperatives for supporting this
campaign, we must understand that this is a development issue. The
existence or even the threat of high levels of violence in any
society has a direct and negative impact on that society’s ability
to develop and grow.
The prevalence of gender-based and child directed violence is one of
the most pernicious forms of discrimination, because it impacts
directly and negatively on the ability of children to realise their
universal human right to development. To acknowledge the
intersection between the vulnerability to violence and disability,
the Department of Sports and Recreation, the Durban city metro and
the KwaZulu-Natal province have collaborated to produce a series of
events that will demonstrate the achievements of disabled sports
women and men in the fields of physical endeavour.
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Following, as it will, on the Presidency’s national event in Limpopo
on 3 December, these events clearly demonstrate our government’s
commitment to mainstreaming the rights of the disabled into the
national agenda. So too, the Department of Health’s national event
in Cape Town on 1 December will focus on the heightened risk of
people living with HIV and Aids to violence and discrimination.
Our closing ceremony will take place at Mitchells Plain on 10
December. The hon Deputy President along with Premier Rasool and
several cabinet members will bring this year’s campaign to a close.
The MEC of Safety and Liaison in the Western Cape, Mr Leonard
Ramatlakane, has rallied the provincial role-players in a concerted
effort to ensure the delivery of an event that embraces the whole
community.
The event will remind us that women’s rights are human rights and
that our society will never be truly free until we’ve achieved the
full emancipation of women and institutionalised their equal
participation in all aspects of life, in the home, in the community
and in the workplace.
In the packages that you have received today, you will find a pledge
postcard. Please sign it and put it into the red post boxes in the
Old Assembly lobby. You will also find a white ribbon, the
international symbol of solidarity for no violence against women.
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Please wear your ribbons for the full duration of the campaign. By
wearing it, you’d be saying I care, I’m a nation builder, I’m a
peacemaker and a proud South African. Thank you, very much.
[Applause.]
THE IMPORTANCE OF CONSTITUENCY WORK IN A PARTICIPATORY DEMOCRATIC
SOCIETY
(Subject for Discussion)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, hon Deputy
President and hon members, for 92 years the ANC has been the
torchbearer of majority democratic rule in our country. Humanity
inherited from ancient Greece the meaning of democracy, namely
democratic majority rule. The ANC’s vision to build a better life
for all is underpinned by its strategic perspective to build a
united, nonracial, democratic, nonsexist and prosperous South Africa
wherein participation in decision-making involves all people,
particularly the poor.
The content of our democracy was forged in the crucible of struggle
against the forces of imperialism, colonialism and apartheid in our
country. In the course of our struggle, we enlisted the active
support and involvement of millions of our people into a mighty army
of liberation. Our compatriots organised in the UDF, civics, Cosatu
and other contingents of mass formations were in reality a form of
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participatory democracy. At the centre of those struggles was the
quest and desire for a form of government premised on the values and
norms of participatory democracy so aptly articulated in the Freedom
Charter when it says, “the people shall govern”.
Participatory democracy is about the involvement of the people in
determining their destiny. The processes leading to the adoption of
the Freedom Charter have profound lessons for all public
representatives when considering the approach to constituency work.
In order for people to govern effectively, they need to be informed
about the programmes, policies and the legislative framework that
regulate and govern their lives, day-to-day activities and business.
It is in this context that we submit that public representatives
should be like the olden day volunteers who conducted door-to-door
campaigns to provide the people with the opportunity to define the
kind of country and world they wanted to live in.
This fundamental lesson of the Freedom Charter is that South
Africans designed and crafted their future. Our democratic
Constitution embraces the aspirations of the Freedom Charter and
provides a framework for their progressive realisation. Our
Constitution embodies a justifiable Bill of Rights and institutions
that support constitutional democracy.
The ANC has transformed the institution of Parliament into a
Parliament of the people. Our people have spoken loud and clear in
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three successive elections. The development of our country is shaped
by our concrete historical circumstances. What this means is that
universal lessons on democracy must be indigenised in the material
conditions of South Africa. Furthermore, the ANC has reinvented
indigenous forms of African democracy, such as izimbizo, in the
material conditions of the 21st
century. Izimbizo are a powerful
platform of accountability and transparency. Izimbizo afford
constituencies the opportunity to give feedback on the
implementation of government programmes. On the other hand,
government representatives get the opportunity to listen to the
views of their constituencies.
The fact that the Presidency, Ministers, Premiers, members of
Parliament, members of provincial legislatures, councillors and
government officials jointly address izimbizo necessarily make these
a qualitatively higher form of participatory democracy. Izimbizo, as
a form of participatory democracy, are an integral part of the
African Renaissance movement.
By adopting the Reconstruction and Development Programme, the ANC
buttressed participatory democracy as a way of life in the
reconstruction and development of postapartheid South Africa. Thus,
in 1994, in capturing the letter and spirit of the RDP we said that
our people, with their aspirations and collective determination, are
our most important resource. The RDP is focussed on our people’s
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most immediate needs and it relies, in turn, on their energies to
drive the process of meeting these needs.
Regardless of race or sex, or whether they are rural or urban, rich
or poor, the people of South Africa must together shape their own
future. Development is not about the delivery of goods to a passive
citizenry. It is about active involvement and growing empowerment.
In taking this approach we are building on the many forums, peace
structures and negotiations that our people are involved in
throughout the land.
In the context of the RDP, how do we understand constituency work?
Central to the notion which says “the people shall govern” is the
symbiotic relationship between the vanguard and the people; and in
the case of parliamentary work, it is the symbiotic relationship
between the people’s representatives and their constituencies. The
ANC’s conceptualisation of constituency work locates the ANC as a
revolutionary movement at the head of a patriotic effort to build a
people’s contract, to create work and to fight poverty.
Increasingly, constituency work should, and will, occupy centre
stage in the work of the legislatures. Necessarily, as we pursue the
objectives of solidifying the people’s contract, the challenge of
strengthening the participative interaction between Parliament and
the people becomes the fulcrum of parliamentary activities. The task
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of participatory democracy is active involvement of the people in
matters of governance.
Constituency work transcends party political partisanship. The
partisanship we embrace as the ANC is a people-driven process of
empowerment and delivery of services to the poorest of our people,
both as guarantor of a future and a moral imperative that defines
our spirit of ubuntu. This perspective is non-negotiable.
Essentially, we are saying that constituency work should enable
legislators to interact with diverse stakeholders.
The purpose of constituency work is to foster nation-building and
citizen participation in the broad effort of reconstruction and
development. Placing the people at the centre of development is the
essence of Batho Pele and is Africa’s contribution to the notion of
democracy. This new approach to parliamentary democracy requires a
mindset shift. Indeed, it requires a radical break with traditional
notions of restricting citizen participation to periodic elections.
Participatory democracy regards citizens as partners in the totality
of the development effort. Parliament, as the cradle of democracy,
has a responsibility to challenge institutions that buttress
constitutional democracy to follow suit and to locate at the centre
of their activities the people’s interests as well as their active
participation.
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The media need to reflect, understand and define their role in the
context of fostering a people-driven development. We are arguing
that it is not essentially market forces that determine our destiny
on the issues of democracy. On the contrary, we suggest that the
benefits of human culture must be harnessed to give effect to the
assertion that the people shall govern.
In our view, the new approach to constituency work affords
Parliament immeasurable possibilities to unleash the energies of our
people in the reconstruction and development agenda. The achievement
of this patriotic duty will enhance nation-building, and contribute
to the African Renaissance and the new world order.
I have limited time at my disposal, but there are other important
issues that we needed to reflect on. The level of resource support
for members to carry out their constituency work seems quite
inadequate. The very same capacity of constituency offices seems to
be limited. The mode of operation of parliamentary constituency
offices needs overhauling. These offices close exactly at a time
when the very clientele they intend to serve are either at work or
at home. We need a suitable arrangement for constituency offices
that is consistent with our kind of democracy. Our constituency
office system seems to be based on the magisterial district boundary
constituency approach that is completely inadequate to reach our
people properly.
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Regarding broadcasting issues, I am still amazed as to why almost
all constituency offices do not have digital satellite television to
enable constituents at that level to engage with Parliament fully
and not only be limited to the half slots provided by the SABC.
All in all, we need to have a new model of constituency work that we
need to collectively reshape. At its centre must be the ability to
communicate the programmes we are engaged in and involve people in
decision-making. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mnr T D LEE: Mnr die Voorsitter, mnr die Adjunkpresident, dames en
here, dit is voorwaar ironies dat ons vandag oor kiesafdelingwerk
praat terwyl ons Grondwet nie eintlik voorsiening maak vir
kiesafdelings nie. Miskien is dit in ‘n mate erkenning daarvan dat
ons kiesstelsel nie ten volle aan die vereistes van ons land voldoen
nie.
Die DA glo dat die beste manier van verteenwoordiging op
parlementêre vlak - nasionaal, sowel as provinsiaal - geskoei moet
wees op die model wat tans op die plaaslike regeringsvlak van
toepassing is, met ander woorde, ‘n kombinasie van ‘n kiesafdelingof wykstelsel en ‘n proporsionele lysstelsel.
Die proporsionele lysstelsel is baie inklusief van aard en verseker
dat elke stem tel, al het ‘n party nie beduidende steun nie. Die
kiesafdelingstelsel, op sy beurt, gee die kieser die geleentheid om
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direk vir ‘n kandidaat te stem wat, volgens sy of haar oordeel, die
beste na die kiesers se belange sal omsien.
Ons moet onthou dat die deursnit-kieser nie ‘n baie hoë dunk van
politici het nie. Luister, Manie, die deursnit-kieser het nie ‘n
baie hoë dunk van politici nie. Hulle dink dat ons bra oneerlik,
onproduktief en hopeloos oorbetaald is. In sekere mate het ons net
onsself vir dié beeld te blameer, terwyl ons huidige kiesstelsel,
waar niemand eintlik vir ‘n gebied verantwoordelik gehou kan word
nie, ook van die skuld moet dra.
Ongeag die kiesstelsel moet ons te alle tye ons verkiesingsbeloftes
nakom. Luister, Manie, as ons dit nie doen nie, verloor die kiesers
nie net vertroue in en respek vir die politici nie, maar voel hulle
ook dat die stelsel hulle in die steek laat. In so ‘n geval kan die
kiesers òf apaties word, òf oorgaan tot geweld en protes - en ons
weet wat in die Vrystaat gebeur het, wat alreeds op ‘n paar ander
plekke in ons land gebeur het. Ons moet onthou dat daar baie
behoeftige mense in ons land is. Vir hierdie mense is hul openbare
verteenwoordigers hul laaste toevlug en hoop. Ons mag hulle nie
versaak nie, Manie.
Die DA neem hierdie verantwoordelikheid, genome dienslewering, baie
ernstig op. So ernstig dat ons van alle DA-openbare
verteenwoordigers, dit wil sê LP’s, LPW’s, sowel as raadslede,
verwag om ‘n prestasie-ooreenkoms, ‘n “performance”-kontrak, te
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onderteken en hulle te onderwerp aan ‘n streng gedragskode.
(Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Mr T
D LEE: Mr Chairman, Mr Deputy President, ladies and
gentlemen, it is indeed ironic that we talk of constituency work
today whilst our Constitution does not even cater for
constituencies. Perhaps this is an acknowledgement, to a certain
degree, that our electoral system does not fully comply with the
requirements of our country.
The DA believes that the best method of representation at the
parliamentary level, nationally as well as provincially, must be
fashioned on the model that is currently applicable at the local
government level, in other words, a combination of a constituency or
ward system, as well as a proportional list system.
The proportional list system is of a very inclusive nature and
ensures that each vote counts, even though a party has no
significant support. The constituency system, on the other hand,
provides the voter with the opportunity to vote directly for a
candidate who, in his or her judgement, will best look after the
interests of the voters.
We must remember that the average voter does not have a very high
regard for politicians. Listen, Manie, the average voter does not
have a very high regard for politicians; they regard us as being
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dishonest, unproductive and hopelessly overpaid. To a certain degree
we have only ourselves to blame for this image, whilst our present
electoral system, where nobody can actually be held responsible for
an area, should also shoulder some of the blame.
Notwithstanding the electoral system, we have to honour our
electoral promises at all times. Listen, Manie, if we do not do
this, the electorate will not only lose faith in and respect for
politicians, but will also feel that the system has left them in the
lurch. In this case, the electorate could either become apathetic or
resort to violence - and we know what happened in the Free State, as
has happened in a few other places in our country. We must remember
that there are a lot of poor people in our country. To these people,
their public representatives are their last resort and hope.
The DA takes this responsibility, service delivery, very seriously.
So seriously that we expect all DA representatives, in other words,
MPs, MPCs, as well as councillors, to sign a performance agreement,
a performance contract, and to subject themselves to a strict code
of conduct.]
The DA requires its public representatives to maintain the highest
standards of ethical behaviour, and any incidence of corruption,
fraud, improper inducement, nepotism, dishonesty or similar offence
on the part of any public representative will lead to disciplinary
action. We implore, and I challenge, the ANC to say and do the same.
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The DA is determined and committed to serve its voters and indeed
all the people of this country, whether it is in Parliament, the
legislatures, city councils or the constituencies. I thank you.
[Applause.]
Rev K M ZONDI: Chairperson, constituency work is usually taken for
granted, and it is a given in many established democracies
throughout the world. It is taken for granted because members of
Parliament, in a representative democracy, directly represent the
people who elected them.
South Africa is also a democracy in which both our National Assembly
and provincial legislatures are elected according to a party list
system. This system has its own advantages and disadvantages. The
greatest advantage of our electoral system is that it ensures
representation of the smallest of parties, which otherwise would not
be represented in our Parliament or provincial legislatures if we
had a first-past-the-post electoral system.
The rationale underlying our electoral system is to strengthen
multiparty democracy and to accommodate the diverse range of voices
of constituencies. The drawback of the system is that it does not
allocate a member to a particular geographical area. The electorate
elects a party, rather than a specific individual.
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When we arrived here in 1994 we soon realised that something had to
be done to keep Parliament in direct contact with the electorate.
Due to the absence of a constituency element in our electoral system
political parties were implored to allocate members to specific
geographical areas. It is generally agreed that it is a matter of
vital importance for members of Parliament to perform constituency
work in order to ensure that the people’s aspirations and concerns
are heard in Parliament. It was for this reason that Parliament made
resources available to enable members to do their constituency work.
It is of course debatable whether resources for constituency work
are enough. Whilst there are resources for members to travel to and
within their constituencies, it is far from clear if they are
sufficient for those that lie in areas that are, in terms of
infrastructure, difficult to traverse. One therefore wonders if
consideration can be given to rearranging the parliamentary
programme so that there is enough time for MPs to spend time in
their allocated constituencies.
Parliamentarians could, for example, sit for six solid months, from
February to June, and for the rest of the year undertake
constituency work. Alternatively, Parliament could sit for three
months at a time and then allocate a full month for constituency
work on an ongoing basis. This is especially important if Parliament
is to make a significant contribution to our developmental state and
to enhance participatory democracy.
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The Van Zyl Slabbert task team recommended a mixed electoral system,
with a quorum of members who would be directly elected and then
topped up with a list system, to ensure proportionality. This is so
that every vote counts. This report unfortunately appears to have
fallen by the wayside. Interestingly, the late Lord Roy Jenkins
recommended such a system in Britain, the so-called additional
member system, when he chaired the Jenkins Commission, established
by Prime Minister Tony Blair in 1998.
Understandably, ruling parties with large majorities are often
content to leave the status quo as it is. I think this is shortsighted. The IFP believes the time has come to craft an electoral
system that retains the best elements of proportional
representation. Thank you, Chairperson. [Time expired.]
Mr G T MADIKIZA: Hon Chairperson, hon Ministers and Deputy
Ministers, hon members, constituency work has been identified as an
important obligation for every member of Parliament. Consequently it
has been elevated, as a prominent feature of the parliamentary
programme, to formally create the time for members to visit their
constituencies. Funding is specifically provided to ensure that
members can operate offices in their constituencies.
The Constitution of South Africa specifically calls for
participatory democracy. This therefore means that we must create a
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system that allows citizens to participate in a democracy on a far
wider scale than merely turning up every five years to cast their
votes. It is for this reason that public participation in
parliamentary committees is enshrined in our Constitution, and why
the media are allowed to freely report on the proceedings of this
institution.
We must recognise that even these measures are not sufficient to
foster a true participatory democracy. That is why constituency work
is important. Most citizens do not have the luxury of time and
resources to travel to this institution and participate in our
proceedings. Therefore, we must go to them and create mechanisms
through which they can access their public representatives.
Undoubtedly, we are expected to perform many duties as
parliamentarians, but we cannot shirk constituency work. There are
constituency offices across party lines, which have become an
integral part of the communities in which they operate. These
constituency offices are a first port of call for people who
struggle to access or understand basic government services, such as
ID and social grant applications.
These offices also assist those people who have, for various
reasons, become disillusioned with the notoriously slow and often
uncaring bureaucracies of certain government departments and
institutions. Often, reports of gross administrative injustices are
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brought to these offices where the relevant member can approach the
responsible Minister and have the matter resolved. I thank you, hon
Chair. [Time expired.]
Mrs P DE LILLE: Chairperson, members of Parliament are most likely
to represent constituents’ interests when, firstly, they know
precisely where their constituents are; secondly, they interact with
them frequently; thirdly, their political future depends on gaining
and keeping their seats in Parliament; and lastly, they find a
balance between parliamentary work and conversing with their
constituents.
While some leaders speak in the abstract about the people,
legislatures in a functioning democracy usually see constituents as
people from whom they can learn how government policies are working
and whose support they value. Members of Parliament with strong ties
to constituents are more likely to think about policies in terms of
how they affect the people they represent.
The question of how well government is working is answered by how
well their constituents fare under government policies. The
commitment to the electorate is vastly different between a listbased MP and a constituency-based MP. List members place less
emphasis on constituency work in the absence of a direct
constituency link. This is because the electoral fate depends more
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on securing a high position on the party list than securing a vote
from their constituents.
MPs will have an easier time representing and interacting with their
constituents when they have the necessary resources. We need more
resources. The ID believes that Parliament should review the funding
formula for the constituency allowance so that it is fair and
reasonable. There is also no need to wait for the law to be changed
to service constituencies. We can start in the meantime, while we
wait for the law.
I want to agree with the hon Musa Zondi that the parliamentary
programme must be changed so that we have 50% parliamentary work and
spend 50% of our time in our constituencies, in order to come back
here and represent and formulate policies according to the needs. I
thank you. [Applause.]
Mrs M M MADUMISE: Chairperson, hon members, the most visible
demonstration of the linkage between an elected representative and
his or her constituency in modern democracies is the manner in which
he or she engages in constituency work with the electorate. Between
elections this can be regarded as the glue that holds democracy
together.
The nature and strength of the linkage between public
representatives and citizens is a key foundation upon which
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effective, enduring, and stable democratic regimes are built. In
taking this opportunity today to discuss this critical issue, let us
keep in mind the search for a practical answer to the question as to
how best our elected representatives can reflect the interests of
our citizens in a manner that is both just and fair.
The focus for democracy is anything but certain as we look to the
twenty-first century. Today we are faced with a new set of democracy
challenges, perhaps greater than those of our recent past. The task
is no longer to make the world safe for democracy, as Woodrow Wilson
proclaimed almost a century ago, but rather to safeguard our
essential democratic values. This shift is reflected in the current
literature, which, upon review, brings to mind Rousseau’s saying,
which goes: “Liberty is a food easy to eat, but hard to digest.”
As we celebrate our advance towards a better life for our people, we
do so conscious of the fact that our strength should continue to
reside in our mass character. Therefore the involvement of the
masses should be at the centre of our strategy to consolidate and
advance the gains we have made so far. Our oversight practices
should reflect this. In carrying out our oversight function, we must
continue to ensure and strengthen the involvement of all the
sectoral formations among the motive forces.
Social dialogue and partnership with civil society was a pillar of
the liberation struggle in South Africa. It is instructive for us to
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see the importance of nongovernmental agencies in formulating and
shaping their own future. Trade unions joined forces with civil
society, and this partnership set a clear agenda for democracy in
the country. Constituency work, therefore, should not be
contextualised outside of the means that defeated apartheid. Instead
we should consolidate a strong fold of partnerships with civil
society in order to understand the real challenges of our people as
we continue to liberate this country.
We should remember that civil organisations cultivate the programmes
that focus on the grassroots and are strongly biased towards the
poor in the process of fighting and pushing the frontiers of
poverty, and with a vision to build a vibrant democratic order. At
the heart of these partnerships there should be campaigns and
instruments to render the apartheid machinery ineffective.
Socio-economic conditions in the country must be such that the
regime is well-balanced. As members of Parliament we have the
responsibility to ensure that the programmes in our communities are
within the ambit of government policy, that government is supporting
these initiatives, and that such initiatives are well-publicised and
effective.
Oversight and constituency work are important legislative tools
available to us as MPs to make sure that we are fulfilling our
commitment to a better life by addressing the inequities created
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over centuries of colonial domination. In discussing our approach to
oversight and constituency work, we need to make sure that in its
content and form it is capable of consolidating and advancing the
democratic gains we have made.
Constituency work is a must in any democratic society. Describing a
good constituency member is difficult; it’s perplexing and confusing
to define. Many of us are called on to play a multitude of roles
within a constituency, as welfare officers, development
facilitators, postmen, powerful friends, benefactors, safety valves,
listeners, redressers of wrongs and even teachers. In the end, it is
the constituents themselves who ultimately decide the roles that we
as elected representatives must play. Yet it is a decision that can
only be exercised on the basis of an elected representative who has
established a visible and tangible presence in a community.
No constituency system, no matter how well-designed, can
meaningfully be implemented without the presence of the elected
representative in the life of the constituency. No system, no matter
how ingenious or sophisticated, can replace or substitute the
effective involvement of an elected representative in the lives of
the community. The question we should, therefore, be asking is:
Which constituency system would be most likely to ensure that
elected representatives take seriously all the roles they must play
in the life of a community? Technology does not comprise of the
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Internet only, but also of media technology such as radio, fax and
TV.
There is a lack of infrastructure and massive logistics are needed
to maintain and sustain technological connectivity as a basis of
information for our constituency offices. As members of Parliament
we must be able to download important information from our networks
and provide it to our constituency offices. In provinces where 70%
to 80% of the population live in rural areas where there is a lack
of basic infrastructure such as telephones and electricity, how can
this technology be applied? It then becomes our responsibility as
public representatives and servants of our people, in the fight to
make a better life for all, to ensure that we provide relevant
information through the meetings that we hold with our
constituencies, even through local radio stations and by word of
mouth.
The door-to-door campaign should be continuous. However, it should
be better structured. Even in the few major cities where Internet
cafes have sprung up in their dozens, going online is still a costly
venture. The emphasis of a new approach to constituency work should
be on direct interaction with our people through the continuation of
our election strategy of door-to-door campaigning.
The key objective of such a campaign must be to mobilise the whole
constituency, irrespective of political affiliation, around the
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ANC’s programme of transformation and also to deal with the
challenges I have mentioned above, with respect to the utilisation
of information versus the scarce resources.
To do so, our constituency offices must have a programme that
clearly speaks to the needs of the majority of the people in the
constituency. The ANC’s programme of action forms the basis of all
our constituency offices’ programmes.
South Africans are united by one quality that overshadows all
others: they are “can-do” people. They defied the doomsday
predictions of 1994 and came up with a historic political solution
that astonished the world. Now they are working together to achieve
refreshing and different socio-economic solutions, which will again
be an inspiration to the world.
I am sure that you are well aware of the fact that there have,
recently, been increasing calls for change to the constituency
system for public representatives in South Africa and these have
come from political parties, civil society and the media.
Let me be the first to remind my political opponents - such as the
DA, here, and the media - that they do not have sole monopoly of
these calls for change and that the ANC is not unaware of or
insensitive to the issue of its obligation to its constituency.
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Our key priority as members of Parliament and members of the ANC is
to develop a programme of action on oversight and constituency work
that will contribute towards the implementation of our national
objectives.
In developing such a programme of action, we must constantly remind
ourselves that the legacy of inequality, which has been built up
over many centuries, cannot be eradicated in a short time. I want to
remind you of former President Nelson Mandela’s last speech to
Parliament in which he indicated the need to change to a more
constituency-based approach in consolidating the democratic gains
that have been made in South Africa since 1994. The former
President’s statement should come as no surprise as this has been,
and still is, very much a subject of concern in the ongoing debate
within the ANC as to how we can best represent and serve the
interests of our people.
Also, more recently as an expression of this concern, you will note
that a greater commitment has been made in the legislative
programmes for elected members to engage in longer periods of
constituency work after stiffer penalties have been lavished on
those who saw fit not to engage in any form of meaningful
constituency work.
Regarding these calls for change to our current system of
proportional representation, I would like to say that this House is
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the opportune place for all of us present here, irrespective of our
differences and strongly held viewpoints, to reflect critically not
only on where we find ourselves now, but also on the potential
consequences and implications that these calls for change hold for
our democracy.
It is our duty to align our constituency work with the broad
strategic framework of the ANC. The area where this principle has to
find broad expression is in our oversight and constituency work.
Underpinning the programmes of our constituency offices should be an
effective co-ordinating system that links the constituency office
with ward committees, branch councillors, MPs, MPLs, community
development workers and our allied organisations.
In his article on the growth of the constituency role of the MP in
British politics Norton writes, and I quote:
The relationship between members of Parliament and their
constituencies is subject to no formal rules. There is no
official job description. What constituents appear to expect of
their MPs and what the MPs have done over the years, in
response to the demands or perceived needs of the constituency,
have varied.
However, this should not be read in terms that indicate that any
exercise in engaging in constituency work by elected representatives
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is doomed to end in chaotic and abject failure. It has been
documented in the media that many South African MPs, in spite of the
absence of clear guidelines, have had to discover juristically,
through trial and error, what makes a good constituency member. We
need to constantly review the manner in which we have been doing
things to ensure that as a movement we have a strategic response to
the challenges of the next 5 years and 2014. Amandla! [Power!]
HON MEMBERS: Awethu! [Ours!] Applause.]
Adv A H GAUM: Chairperson, the visible participation of MPs in
constituency work is crucial to revitalise a link between
communities and Parliament. Many South Africans do not know whom
their representatives are and are, as a result, not adequately
represented. Our challenge is to establish a very real working
relationship between the electorate and the elected.
Parliament needs to empower and encourage communities to hold the
MPs accountable. This can, inter alia, be done by providing the
names and details of MPs who have been assigned to constituency
areas to the local media, local associations and institutions and
also by making more funds available to ensure that people are
introduced to their MPs.
The hon Lee argues that the introduction of elements of a
constituency-based system will end the shortcomings regarding
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accountability. But this could lead to most constituency MPs coming
from two or three parties exclusively and it could draw an
undesirable distinction between two classes of MPs, namely
constituency MPs and the others. More than any electoral system,
could guarantee accountability, Parliament, its members and
political parties have to establish a culture of accountability and
promote visible constituency work.
The hon Dr Pallo Jordan indicated correctly that political parties
have an important role in this regard. He says MPs are accountable
to parties, which in turn are accountable to the electorate.
Therefore, all parties must put mechanisms in place to hold MPs
accountable and to ensure an active constituency presence.
Dr Frene Ginwala says accountability between the electorate and
political parties can be enhanced by establishing more effective
constituency offices. However, parties cannot be expected to do this
on their own, and MPs cannot become as effective as they should be
if better financial support is not provided, as also referred to by
the hon Chief Whip.
We should take a serious look at the resources available to MPs. In
many other democracies MPs have a much better support base and this
means a better quality of service in terms of constituency work and
parliamentary performance. Effective constituency work can make a
substantial contribution to facilitate public involvement so that
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the challenges of transformation and development in South Africa can
be met and the needs of our people addressed.
If communities perceive their MPs as distant, absent beings without
an interest in their wellbeing, our democracy will no doubt run into
trouble. MPs must be seen as active participants in their local
communities to strengthen participatory democracy. If this is
realised we will indeed succeed in bringing Parliament closer to the
people and in giving meaning to the peoples contract the hon Chief
Whip referred to. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr L M GREEN: Chairperson, constituency work has become a cardinal
part of a parliamentarian’s work. In our modern democratic society
with its swift and accurate communication tools at our finger tips,
especially e-mail and the universal use of the cellphone in South
Africa, it is very easy for our constituents to articulate their
views on political issues on a regular basis.
What do we mean by a participatory democratic society? We know it
does not mean that the constituent has the right to vote once every
five years, and we know it entails a much more ongoing dynamic
process. Our former Speaker, Dr Ginwala, once wrote in the foreword
to A People’s Government - The People’s Voice, that democracy
requires that citizens should be continuously engaged in governance
through interaction with those who make decisions - our
constituents. Marking a ballot and dropping it into a ballot box
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once every five years is an important element of democracy, but it
is only one step in the process of building a society that generally
serves the interests of all its people. Those who are elected to
make policy and laws on behalf of the people are required to fulfil
their mandate in continuous consultation and dialogue with the
citizens on whose behalf they act. That is constituency work.
Suzanne de Villiers, who also writes in the same publication that
was produced by the Parliamentary Support Programme, says that
unlike direct democracy it does not imply that every decision taken
by government must first be subjected to a public referendum. Nor,
however, does it mean that the right and responsibility for
political decision-making is relinquished to a collective of elected
representatives. Participatory democracy is a form of representative
democracy in which citizens are actively involved in the
decision-making processes of government.
And this, colleagues, is why we as public representatives have
constituency offices. We must be able, through these offices, to
bring Parliament and government closer to the people. We have a
responsibility to keep our constituencies informed about the most
important decisions taken by government and to remain a channel
between the people and Parliament. Our constituents must know,
amongst other things, how democracy works, how Parliament functions,
how laws are passed and which laws are passed, the importance of the
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national budget and how that budget impacts on their daily lives.
All these matters we as MPs must take to our constituents.
In closing, if we want to remain the voice of the people, we must
know the heartbeat of the people. Colleagues, when Parliament rises
tomorrow let us return to our constituencies to serve them. I thank
you.
Mr P H K DITSHETELO: Chair, as members of Parliament - no matter
which political party a politician comes from - we are expected to
play an active role in the development of local communities. There
is a debate amongst our people at grass-roots level, which centres
around the electoral system and the role of MPs outside Parliament.
There is no doubt that the issues raised interrogate the role of MPs
in the affairs of local communities and their accountability.
We know for a fact that MPs get to Parliament via a party list and
consequently are accountable to their parties. But in reality MPs
should be accountable to the communities they serve as they are
viewed as elected representatives. Their expectations do, in a way,
overlook party membership and is developmental in approach. It is
within this context that parliamentarians should approach their
constituency work with one thing in mind and that is that our
people, irrespective of party affiliation, deserve to be served.
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Constituency work is the pillar of participatory democracy. It
enables and empowers communities to exercise their rights through a
mandate given to the parliamentarians. It simply means that we have
to do our work with diligence and not treat such breaks from
Parliament as paid holidays to run our private affairs.
It is also alleged that since the MPs come to Parliament via
parliamentary lists and get deployed in constituencies where they
are not known it limits their interaction with such communities.
[Time expired.] Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr N T GODI: Madam Chairperson, comrades and hon members, the PAC
welcomes this debate, as it will hopefully demystify a few things.
There are those out there who think that constituency periods mean
holidays, and there are those around here who, limited by empiricist
perspectives, think that because of our proportional representation
system there is no linkage or accountability to the popular masses.
Our country has been a democracy for the past decade, and there has
been a dramatic shift in the relationship between the people and
institutions of state. Transparency, accountability and
participation have been the guiding principles which have given
society a platform and a voice.
The changes that have been effected at this institution of
Parliament have indeed transformed it into a people’s Parliament. It
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has been transformed from a frozen, cold and anti-people institution
to a warm and accessible people’s Parliament. Such transformation
was necessary and objective and is by no means complete. The vision
of building an effective people’s Parliament that is responsive to
the needs of the people can only be realised if Parliament debates
and resolve issues that arise from the people, and pass legislation
that responds to their needs.
The revolutionary Maoist line has taught us that our line must
always arise from the masses and be informed by their needs. This is
only possible if we interact with them and create platforms and
infrastructure for them to air their views. The views of the people
and our observations should by and large form the content of our
work here. From the people, back to the people - that is the correct
Maoist line.
The PAC therefore looks forward to a situation where, with less
legislation to pass, more time could be spent on oversight and
constituency work. Constituency work gives parliamentarians an
opportunity to check the impact and effectiveness of the laws that
we pass. It also gives people an opportunity through popular forums
to continuously mandate their representatives to indeed be their
delegated placeholders. Such an approach enhances the democratic
system qualitatively.
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We look forward to a situation where motions passed and topics
debated here arise from our experience in doing constituency work.
This House must be able to direct government departments to take
particular measures arising out of our debates, informed by our
constituency work experiences and observations. This would enhance
our democratic system beyond mere bourgeois parliamentarianism.
Constituency work must not be merely about going to the people and
informing them about what is unfolding in Parliament. It is more
about how we take their input forward to inform our work in the
legislative chambers. For those of us who come from the liberation
movement tradition, mass work is a norm. However, there are
challenges of capacity that need to be addressed in terms of
resource allocation, especially for those of us whose geographic
constituencies are so vast that they are barely manageable.
Our quest is for a people’s democracy that is a participatory one,
and we believe that constituency work properly done and given its
space in our legislative work can go a long way in enhancing the
participatory character of our democracy. Thank you. [Applause.]
Ms S RAJBALLY: Madam Chair, we were all voted into authority by
persons who have confidence in us representing their wants and
needs. These needs and wants are being met through our dedication
and commitment to address the issues and challenges of South Africa.
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It is through our constituency work that we become aware of our
challenges and the issues to be addressed. Furthermore, we are able
to approach these challenges with hands-on techniques, as we allow
for a platform where MPs and the community can interact. This not
only gives the community the assurance of our commitment to serving
them, but also reassures us that we are on the right track.
This interaction further facilitates a confidence in the citizenry
that we are a government for the people, by the people, and allows
for inputs on strategies and concerns to be incorporated in national
proceedings, policies and legislation.
I couldn’t agree more with the hon Patricia De Lille when she said
we must spend 50% of our time in our constituencies. To implement
and discharge our constituency work to the fullest, more time is
required.
The MF feels that Parliament should have a relook at its programme
in respect of portfolio committee meetings and sitting days in
Parliament and, if possible, allow members of Parliament to spend
more time in their constituencies. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr P J NEFOLOVHODWE: Deputy Chairperson, for the past ten years our
country has been in the process of creating a political, social and
economic framework around which development and participation,
especially by the poor, can take place. Azapo understands that the
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reason for this is to enable the poor and the vulnerable in our
society to participate in changing their environment and their
status in society for the better. At the same time, it is to enable
society as a whole to deal with poverty.
Furthermore, Azapo believes that central to the enhancement of a
meaningful and better life for the poor is the eradication of
poverty at all corners of our country. In Azapo’s terms constituency
work and activities should be linked to the developmental strategy
that should lead to equitable growth in the personal and collective
capacities of the poor, and not merely as a means to access
government services. We are saying this because we have noticed a
tendency to regard constituency work and activities as a means to
gain votes and support. For as long as this remains the focus of our
constituency work, the talk about integrated development and the
improvement of the lives of the poor is meaningless.
This requires public representatives to change their mindset and
begin to see constituency work as a collective effort by
representatives of all parties to enhance the lives of the poor in
our society. To this end, Azapo urges Parliament to increase
resources and time to enable public representatives to perform their
functions maximally.
The role of Parliament and parties is also very crucial in that they
act as facilitators to make resources available in such a way that
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the resources are directed at changing the material circumstances of
the poor.
Constituency work therefore should put the poor at centre stage,
with the priority being the ongoing struggle to improve their
circumstances. The success of constituency work can only be judged
by the way in which it is capable of transforming the material
conditions of the poor and the vulnerable of our country. I thank
you. [Applause.]
Mr R JANKIELSOHN: Chairperson, while representative democracy
implies the election of representatives to legislatures where they
represent the interests of the constituencies, participatory
democracy extends this to include the participation of civil society
in government. This may be done directly through public hearings or
through the voices of elected members of legislatures. In the latter
case, it implies that members of Parliament must consult with and
represent individuals and organisations within their areas of
responsibility in the constituencies allocated to them by their
respective parties. In this way, citizens obtain a voice in
Parliament.
The responsibilities of MPs are divided between their work in
Parliament as legislators and their work in constituencies. Within
the constituencies they have a very important oversight function and
form the link between government and the people.
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Members of Parliament can be expected to deal with many issues, from
assisting members of the public with their applications and
enquiries regarding pensions, passports and child grants to visiting
police stations, hospitals and schools as part of their oversight
function.
It is bad for multiparty democracy when public representatives are
refused access to state institutions, as is often the case in South
Africa. Opposition MPs are often refused access to institutions such
as schools and hospitals. Some civil servants have even been
instructed not to corporate with MPs or the public. This makes
oversight and accountability impossible and defeats the purpose of
both participatory and representative democracy. If public
representatives are denied access to information in this manner,
then one can understand the frustration of ordinary citizens.
Participatory democracy should not be a concept, but a way of life.
It should be a way of decentralising democracy. But, as such, it is
in direct conflict with the ANC’s policy of democratic centralism.
Democracy is meant to supply legitimate mechanisms through the
system of public representation to deal with problems at grass-roots
level. It is when this mechanism is ignored that mayors, MECs,
Ministers and the President require bodyguards.
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Until the ANC shifts its policy from elite participation to mass
participation, the August Revolution that began in Intabazwe in
Harrismith and spread to other towns will escalate. These events
could have been prevented if MECs and Ministers took the trouble of
reading and reacting to letters from both public representatives and
the public.
The ANC government will not be able to muzzle the people by muzzling
their democratically elected representatives. We will not allow the
Parliament of all the people to become the parliament of a power
hungry President. I thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, hon
members, next week Parliament will rise until January next year. A
long period has been set aside for constituency work. In this debate
the Chief Whip and the hon member Madumise have outlined the
philosophical approach of the ANC to constituency work and the role
of public representatives. They have spoken at length about the
notion that the people will govern, of participatory democracy and
of people-centred and people-driven development. I am not going to
elaborate further on those themes.
It is heartening that most members of this House who have spoken
have demonstrated that there is a clear consensus amongst all
members of the need and the importance of constituency work. In
discussing the vision and mission of Parliament, all parties showed
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that they are in agreement on certain basic values. All parties are
agreed that we must have a people’s Parliament to transform an
entire society, establishing a society based on democratic values,
social justice and fundamental human rights; a Parliament of freely
elected representatives, building on a foundation of a democratic
and open society.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon member, won’t you please
take your seat?
Mrs C DUDLEY: Chair, we would like to know if the hon member would
take a question.
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chair, at the end of my
speech, if there is time. [Interjections.]
At Parliament are freely elected representatives building on the
foundation of a democratic and open society based on the will of the
people and their participation and access to Parliament. This is a
people’s Parliament - educating, informing and involving the people
of South Africa in its processes and acting as a voice of the
people; a people’s Parliament co-operating with other spheres of
government as it deepens and entrenches our democratic values; a
people’s Parliament, working with continental and international
bodies to create a new democratic and participatory world order. . .
[Interjections.] . . . a people’s Parliament passing good laws and
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scrutinising and overseeing executive action as it moves to improve
the quality of life of the people of South Africa, building a
united, democratic South Africa; a people’s Parliament creating a
better life for all.
That is what we discussed in our deliberations about the vision and
mission of Parliament, and I think there is broad consensus on these
broad underlying ideals. There might be differences around the
wording, and those we are busy discussing. But if we take that as
the point of departure for our Parliament, then clearly it is
showing that a lot more emphasis needs to be placed on the oversight
and accountability role of Parliament.
Within that we need to see constituency work as a key component, and
that must then be reflected in a number of ways in which Parliament
functions, or tries to live out this vision and mission. It must be
reflected, first and foremost in the allocation of resources. At the
moment, each member gets approximately R7 500 a month to run a
constituency office. [Interjections.] Clearly that cannot be
sufficient if we are serious about real constituency work.
Members must be provided with the resources to open and establish
proper offices, in the case of some vast rural constituencies
perhaps more than one office. Those offices need to be staffed
appropriately, both administratively and politically, in order to
allow members to reach out actively to the constituencies that they
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serve, to capture the issues that those constituencies have raised
and to follow-up and make sure that those issues are attended to.
Resources are needed to ensure that those offices have the necessary
technological tools, be it Internet, be it access to something like
DStv.
The problem at the moment is that much of the coverage in the media
of Parliament’s work is around this plenary, and about the one and a
half hours a day that are broadcast on the public broadcaster. For
the rest, people can’t see directly what goes on in committees, and
they can’t see the full debates in this House. Can we not equip our
offices to provide people with the technological means to enable
constituencies to see Parliament in action? [Interjections.]
We need to look at the integration of Parliament’s work. Our
questions, our committees, our debates must draw from the
constituency work that we as members do. The programme of Parliament
-
and I think a number of speakers have referred to this - must be
structured in such a way that it allows members sufficient time to
do constituency work, but also for the integration of our
constituency work with other aspects of our parliamentary work.
[Interjections.]
We need to look at not only the resources that go directly to
members to run constituency offices, but we also need to look at
other aspects of the resources given to members of Parliament. The
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travel facilities provided to members are woefully inadequate,
especially in the case of those members who are deployed to vast
rural areas. [Applause.] I think that is also something that needs
to be looked at.
We also need to pay more attention to how we make that aspect of the
vision and mission statement at Parliament that talks about cooperative governance a reality. I think the experience of many
members of this House is that the most pressing constituency issues
that we come across are local government related issues, and we need
to find ways in which we can make it possible for MPs, MPLs and
councillors to work together much more closely in an integrated
fashion.
In the course of this debate, which has generally been a very good
and a very positive debate, there must always unfortunately be a
little discordant note. The first one is, in his input the hon Lee
talked about lack of delivery on the part of the ANC, on the part of
government. [Interjections.] Now, when we debate, we must be serious
with each other here. The fact of the matter is that the electorate
has given the DA a number of chances in a number of areas in the
country. What have they done with those chances? They have
squandered them all, without fail. [Interjections.]
If you look at where the DA has been in power, you are looking at an
area where there is a lack of transformation, a lack of delivery.
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That is why they have been voted out. [Applause.] They have been
voted out in every area where the electorate has given them a
chance. [Interjections.] Now really, we must be serious when we come
and debate with each other here. [Interjections.]
Secondly, another issue has been raised. I think it is an important
issue that we need to take seriously and debate seriously, but we
must also not bring the debate here in a twisted way, and that is
the debate around our electoral system.
We can’t make a direct or simplistic correlation that says: a
constituency-based electoral system equals good constituency work; a
proportional representation system equals bad constituency work.
[Interjections.] That is simplistic and unrealistic. I think when we
engage in that important debate we need to do so with a lot more
sophistication and seriousness. [Interjections.]
Lastly, the point that the hon Jankielsohn raised . . .
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): I regret, hon member, your
time has expired.
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chair, I regret it as
well, because I would have wanted to tell Mr Jankielsohn a thing or
two. [Applause.] But lastly, I want to wish all members a very
productive constituency period. [Applause.]
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Debate concluded.
CHOICE ON TERMINATION OF PREGNANCY AMENDMENT BILL
(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chair, we move that the
amendments be adopted.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Chairperson, the DA would
like to address the House in respect of this matter.
Declarations of vote:
Mr R COETZEE: Madam Chair, the DA would like to make a declaration.
Last time I spoke on this subject I made the point that there should
have been a debate on this Amendment Bill. I made the same point at
the portfolio committee meeting on Tuesday. I cannot understand why
the ANC does not wish to have a debate. I cannot understand what the
ANC is afraid of in respect of a debate. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chair, on a point of
order: To the best of my knowledge it was agreed in the Programme
Committee that this matter would be coming to the House on the basis
of no debate taking place. [Interjections.] So, I am quite surprised
as to where this declaration now comes from.
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Mr R COETZEE: Madam Chair, I do not understand what the ANC is
afraid of in respect of a debate. [Interjections.] Even those of us
who are pro-choice are not afraid of a debate, and I am not sure if
the ANC is . . .
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Chair, on point of
order: This whole thing is unstructured now. For how long is this
member going to speak?
Mr R COETZEE: Three minutes.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chair, are any other parties
allowed to speak on the matter? Let’s have a structured approach to
this, so that we understand.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Certainly, hon member, can I
tell you what I see as the way we should proceed? There is an
opportunity for a declaration. The normal procedure is that there
are three minutes for a declaration. If there are any other parties
who wish to make a declaration I will allow them to do so. Thank
you. Please proceed.
Mr R COETZEE: Madam Chair, so, I have said before that there should
have been a debate, and I am saying again that there should be a
debate. [Interjections.]
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The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, honestly,
on a point of order: We can’t have that. We can’t come together in
meetings as all parties and decide that we are not going to debate
an issue, and then a party stands up here and accuses us of trying
to suppress debate. [Interjections.] If they wanted a debate, they
should have said so in the Programme Committee and we could have
considered it. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon member, I understand that
there was a request for a debate, but that it was agreed not to have
it. However, my understanding is that a declaration is not a debate,
and therefore I will proceed on the basis of the advice from the
Table, which is that I can take declarations if they occur. Thank
you. Please proceed.
Mr R COETZEE: Madam Chair, in fact, at the portfolio committee
meeting on Tuesday I argued very strongly for a debate. The matter
went through a vote and the ANC voted against a debate and the DA
voted in favour of a debate. In fact, that whole debate happened at
the portfolio committee meeting on Tuesday. [Interjections.]
The DA has a clear position on this kind of matter. We believe on
matters of conscience our members need to exercise their individual
right to vote in a way that their conscience dictates, and that,
therefore, is the way in which the DA will vote on this matter. I
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must repeat, however, that we are very concerned, even those of us
who are pro-choice, that aspects of this legislation are impossible
to implement, and that it is particularly dangerous to allow nurses
to perform abortions in a context where there is an enormous
shortage of nurses.
According to the Minister of Health, over 20 000 posts for nurses
are vacant. The quality of training is also not always appropriate;
in fact, almost all the people in the DA caucus are particularly
concerned that that aspect of this legislation is not implementable
and will potentially cause harm to pregnant women.
The DA will call for a division on the subject so that our members
may exercise their right to vote in a way that their conscience
dictates. Thank you. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Are there any other parties
that wish to make a declaration?
Mrs C DUDLEY: Chair, the ACDP does not object to the content of the
amendment proposed by the NCOP, but we object to the fact that this
cosmetic amendment does not effectively address the concerns raised
by the health professionals and the public during national hearings.
During the deliberations on the Choice on Termination of Pregnancy
Amendment Bill last month, the ACDP proposed amendments that would
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 140
minimise the negative impact of the Bill, including a clause that
would protect health professionals who chose not to participate in
abortion on grounds of religion, conscience and belief from undue
pressure and discriminatory practices. The proposals were rejected
and the Bill was passed. Provinces then followed suit, refusing to
hear the public on the matter.
Mr A MLANGENI: Madam Chair, on a point of order: The member is very
fond of addressing us in this Parliament on the question of
abortion. I do not know where she gets that. [Interjections.] What
we are discussing here is the termination of pregnancy, not
abortion. Every time she speaks up she talks of abortion. Can she
please correct herself? [Laughter.] [Applause.]
Mrs C DUDLEY: Chair, provinces then followed suit, refusing to hear
the public on the matter, and returned the Bill with minor
amendments, as referred to by the department as technical.
The Deputy Health Minister claims that a vote for the ANC is a vote
for abortion, and MPs vigorously applaud. Yet, contrary to the ANC’s
claims South African women . . .
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Chair, the point of
order by uBaba Mlangeni is correct, because the input of this member
is irrelevant to the subject under consideration. [Interjections.]
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 141
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon member, it is a question
of vocabulary, a choice of words. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chair, fortunately I am in the House.
On a point of order: Is this member allowed to mislead the public,
because she has totally misquoted me. Can I say what I said? I said:
A large majority of women who have voted for the ANC . . .
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon member, may I say that I
do not think that is a point of order. I think there must be another
opportunity where you can make this point. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: But am I not allowed . . .
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon member, a point of order
is not an opportunity to make a speech.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Yes, but she is misquoting me.
[Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chair, correct me if I
am wrong, but I believe that the Rules do make provision for a
member to give a personal explanation, and I think that should cover
what the Deputy Minister . . .
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 142
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon member, I agree with that
interpretation. However, I intend giving back to the hon Minister
when the ANC wants to make a declaration. Thank you. May we proceed
with the debate please?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam, no, no, no. You cannot
suggest that the Minister must take the ANC’s time.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): I beg you pardon, hon member.
I can mostly decidedly make such a decision.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Chair, you will give her
her own time, not ANC time, please. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): I will decide that at the end
of this discussion. Thank you. [Interjections.]
Mr L M GREEN: Madam Deputy Chair, on a point of order: I just want
to call your attention to the protection of our speaker. It appears
that many frivolous points of order, which are not actually points
of order, are raised. [Interjections.] We ask you to please reward
our member in terms of time.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon member, I will decide on
the time. That is not a point of order. Thank you.
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 143
Mr P A C HENDRICKSE: Madam Chair, on a point of order: This debate
is with regard to the question of choice, not with regard to the
question of termination or abortion. It is about choice, and the
member is misleading the House when she says that the ANC is for
abortion. Being for choice is not being for abortion. [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Thank you, hon member, I have
heard that. I am not going to prescribe to her what vocabulary she
should use.
Mrs C DUDLEY: Chair, it is clear that the ANC does not want the
public to believe that choice on termination of pregnancy is
abortion, but when you see a dead baby, you see a dead baby.
[Interjections.] When you see pieces of a baby, you see pieces of a
baby.
The Democratic Nurses Organisation of South Africa, Denosa, has
criticised the Bill, and is concerned that if government continues
to force nurses who have a conscientious objection to participate in
abortions, they will refuse to comply and face the consequences or
vote by leaving the public sector. The present equality court case
is an example of that.
The rights of health workers are being further compromised daily, as
women who have been induced to abort come into facilities bleeding,
and nurses who choose not to participate have no option but to do
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 144
so. There is also a shortage. As was said earlier, 31% of nursing
posts cannot be filled, and this has increased the workload on
nurses drastically.
In terms of the Bill more health facilities have been designated to
do abortions, yet no additional nurses or doctors have been provided
to do the job. This will fall to the backs of those nurses who are
already overburdened.
The ACDP could not vote for this problematic Amendment Bill before,
and as nothing has changed we cannot vote for it now. We stand by
our opinion that it should have been scrapped, and again call for a
review of the principal Act. I thank you. [Applause.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Chair, I do not want to
disturb any speaker, but on a matter of procedure: By her own
admission, when the committee sat the matter of a debate was raised.
It is an important precedent that you are creating. I am addressing
you on that. The committee that the Speaker has delegated powers to
has looked at this matter and has taken a decision. It might have
been a split decision, but it was a decision of that committee.
The decision of that committee was conveyed to a legitimate
structure of this House, the Programming Committee, and it has been
agreed that there would be no debate on the matter. However, you are
allowing a debate.
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 145
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon member, I have noted your
point. I am not aware that we cannot have declarations despite the
fact that people have agreed not to have a debate. Therefore, I
would like to know: Are there any other parties that wish to make a
declaration? Does the ANC want to make a declaration? [Applause.]
Hon member, please, before you start, may I just explain?
[Interjections.] No, Ma’am I am not. Regarding the question of being
misquoted: An explanation during the debate is allowed only when a
material part of a member’s speech has been misquoted or
misunderstood, but such member shall not be permitted to introduce
any new matter and no debate shall be allowed upon such an
explanation.
However, I do want to give you the opportunity. The ANC can choose
whom they wish to make a declaration. Hon Minister, if you wish to
do so, you have the opportunity now, otherwise the member at the
Chair can proceed. Thank you. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Chair, on a point
of order: I think there are issues at stake here that are very
different. The Rules allow for parties to make declarations on a
matter that is being decided by the House, and we have identified
someone who will do that.
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 146
Secondly, under a totally different rule there is provision for a
member to make an explanation, and I think those two things should
not be conflated. Our members should make the declaration on what
the party’s position will be on the issue before the House. The
member who is being misquoted should, separately from that, have the
opportunity to clarify that matter. [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S BOTHA): I think that the explanation I
have given covers that. It should be a material part of a members’
speech, which it has not in being in this case. Therefore, can we
please proceed with the declaration by the ANC? Thank you.
Mr L V J NGCULU: Thank you, very much. Hon Deputy Minister of
Health, and hon members, in the debate we just had on the 16 Days of
Activism, somebody indicated that the DA and its statement on the
matter was a disgrace not only to the party, but also to the ideals
which they stand for. Indeed, what we are discussing today further
confirms the embarrassment that the DA continues to be to the women
members of the DA and to the women members of the ACDP.
The critical matter under discussion is the question regarding the
choice of termination, and the amendments thereof. The matter that
we are actually discussing in this area was a small amendment. It
was only a sentence which said, we should only add, “not
contemplated in terms of section 3(1)b”. That was all it was saying.
Nothing else was actually in the amendments. What we are saying by
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 147
stealth and crook is that the people are presenting some of the old
debates around the very same concept of the issue that we are
discussing.
And what is important for us . . . [Interjections.]
Mr L M GREEN: Madam Chairperson, on a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S BOTHA): Hon member, could you please
take your seat. I hope it is a point of order.
Mr L M GREEN: Is it parliamentary for the member to say that some of
the members – and thus referring to the speakers who spoke before introduced the debate by means of stealth and crookedness? Will you
allow that?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S BOTHA): I will allow it in the context
in which it was said. Thank you.
Mr L V J NGCULU: Because the context, hon Green, is very clear. The
amendment says, not contemplated in terms of a section. That is all
it says. And you and your party would like to bring in that very
concept of the debate. For the record, the South African Survey
2003-2004 says that 285 316 women, since the ANC came to power, have
taken the lead on the question of the termination of pregnancy: more
than a quarter of a million people - more than, perhaps, the people
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 148
who voted for you. Those are the women who have taken this
initiative.
Who are you today, to come and tell those 285 316 women that they
are not allowed to do these things? They have done it legally. And
that legality was provided for because we, in the ANC, are ever
loyal to the plight of the women, in particular to the poor women.
We have stated some years ago when this debate came into being that
the termination of pregnancy, not just the choice, was allowed for
white women. There was no noise from the opposition benches.
We, as the ANC, are saying that the women of South Africa, black and
white, must be given a choice to determine what is best for their
own health, for their own future, and for their own children. That
is all we are saying. And when they decide on that choice, all the
ANC is saying is that the conditions under which this has to be
undertaken, must fit within the standards of health, the legal
limits of our country, and they must be safe for the women of South
Africa. That is why we shall not shirk this responsibility. We have
a responsibility to the women of our country. Thank you very much.
[Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Order! Order! Hon members,
could we have some order, please. Could we continue? Thank you very
much. Are there any objections to this Bill?
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 149
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Chairperson, the DA objects
to it on a formal basis to enable us to move to a division, so that
members can vote either for or against or abstain. So, for that
purpose, we object.
Mr L M GREEN: Could you also note the ACDP’s objection.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S BOTHA): Thank you. Does the DA want
their objection recorded?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: When you put the question, I am
going to call for a division.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Chairperson, can you
note that exactly when you provoke the ANC like this, you get
slaughtered like a chicken. [Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon members, may we please
continue, please. Hon members, we cannot continue the debate like
this. This is not a screaming match; it is a debate. Please, can we
continue? I now put the question. Those in favour will say Aye, and
those against No. Thank you. I have recorded one objection. We will
look at it, and there is a request for a division. A division having
being called, the bells will be rung for five minutes.
Question put: That the Bill be passed.
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 150
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES-174: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D;
Asiya, S E; Baloyi, M R; Benjamin, J; Bhamjee, Y S; Bhengu, F;
Bhengu, P; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Botha, N G W; Carrim, Y I;
Chikunga, L S; Chohan-Khota, F I; Combrinck, J J; Cwele, S C;
Dambuza, B N; Davies, R H; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Direko, I
W; Fihla, N B; Fubbs, J L; Gabela, L S; Gcwabaza, N E; Gololo, C
L; Goniwe, M T; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M; Gumede, M M;
Hendrickse, P; Huang, S; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, C B;
Johnson, M; Kalako, M U; Kasienyane, O R; Kati, Z J; Kekana, C D;
Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, K M; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Kondlo,
N C; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K;
Lekgoro, M M S; Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C
I; Luthuli, A N; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Mabuyakhulu, D V;
Madlala-Routledge, N C; Maduma, L D; Madumise, M M; Magau, K R;
Magazi, M N; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Mahlawe, N
M; Mahomed, F; Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C;
Makgate, M W; Malahlela, M J; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleka, H P;
Manana, M N S; Martins, B A D; Maserumule, F T; Mashangoane, P R;
Mashiane, L M; Mashigo, R J; Mashile, B L; Masithela, N H;
Masutha, T M; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matlala, M H; Maunye,
M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbombo, N D; Meruti, M V;
Mgabadeli, H C; Mkhize, Z S; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N;
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 151
Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D;
Mokoena, A D; Mokoto, N R; Molefe, C T; Montsitsi, S D; Morobi, D
M; Morwamoche, K W; Mosala, B G; Moss, L N; Moss, M I; Mpaka, H
M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E;
Mzondeki, M J G; Ndou, R S; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; NewhoudtDruchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngculu, L V
J; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, M L; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G;
Njikelana, S J; Njobe, M A A; Nkuna, C; Nogumla, R Z; Ntuli, M M;
Ntuli, S B; Nwamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, M D; Nxumalo, S
N; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Phadagi, M G;
Phala, M J; Radebe, B A; Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai, C P M;
Ramphele, T D H; Rwexana, S P; Schneemann, G D; Sefularo, M;
September, C C; Sibande, M P; Sibanyoni, J B; Siboza, S; Sithole,
D J; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Sonto, M
R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Stephens, M; Thomson, B; Tobias, T V;
Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Van den Heever, R P Z;
Van Wyk, Annelizé; Vundisa, S S; Xolo, E T; Yengeni, L L; Zita,
L; Zulu, B Z.
NOES-21: Bhengu, M J; Chang, E S; Dudley, C; Durr, K D S; Green,
L M; Jankielsohn, R; Joubert, L K; Kohler-Barnard, D; Lee, T D;
Likotsi, M T; Mdlalose, M M; Ngema, M V; Ngiba, B C; Opperman, S
E; Sibuyana, M W; Smuts, M; Morgan, G R; Mpontshane, A M; Selfe,
J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Vezi, T E; Swathe, M M; Trent, E
W; Van der Walt, D; Waters, M; Zikalala, C N Z.
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 152
ABSTAIN-12: Blanché, J P I; Dhlamini, B W; Gibson, D H M; Godi, N
T; Henderson, R K; Lowe, C M; Morgan, G R; Mpontshane, A M;
Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Vezi, T E.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Order, hon members. Hon
member.
Mr L M GREEN: Deputy Chairperson, on a point of order: It is. . .
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon member, may I tell you
that I have been informed that during this period the House is not
in session, and we do not have to take points of orders, and I think
we have had quite enough of them today, so can we please . . .
[Interjections.] This only holds true for the following five
minutes. Thank you. Now you may proceed, five minutes have passed.
Mr L M GREEN: Thank you, Deputy Chairperson. Firstly, is it in order
for members of Parliament to toyi-toyi in Parliament; and secondly,
will you allow us, when we are happy, to sing hymns and choruses in
Parliament? [Laughter.] Because, this is actually what is happening.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S BOTHA) : Hon member, I do not think
that is a point of order, but certainly in the five minutes while we
were waiting for members to join us I have no objection to them
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 153
toyi-toying. If you wish to sing hymns in that time that would be
fine too. [Laughter.] Are you rising on a point of order?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Yes, Madam. You see, precisely
that thing . . .
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S BOTHA): Please, don’t point your
finger.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: He is trying to say to the
nation and the House that toyi-toyi is some or other thing. I find
that insulting, and I request that member to withdraw.
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, there are
one or two of our members in that corner whose votes have not been
recorded.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S BOTHA): Thank you, we will see to it
that it is recorded.
Bill accordingly passed.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S BOTHA): Before we adjourn, I wish to
ask members to please note that proceedings of the House will start
at 09:00 tomorrow morning, and not at 10:00. That concludes the
business for the day, and the House is adjourned.
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 154
The House adjourned at 18:01.
__________
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
ANNOUNCEMENTS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
1.
Assent by President in respect of Bills
(1)
Government Employees Pension Law Amendment Bill [B 15 - 2004] - Act No
21 of 2004 (assented to and signed by President on 8 November 2004).
2.
Bills passed by Houses - to be submitted to President for assent
(1)
Bill passed by National Assembly on 11 November 2004:
(i)
Choice on Termination of Pregnancy Amendment Bill [B 72D - 2003]
(National Assembly - sec 76)
3.
Translations of Bills submitted
(1)
The Minister of Finance
11 NOVEMBER 2004
(i)
PAGE: 155
Aansuiweringsbegrotingswetsontwerp [W 21 - 2004] (National Assembly
- sec 77)
This is the official translation into Afrikaans of the Adjustments Appropriation
Bill [B 21 - 2004] (National Assembly - sec 77).
TABLINGS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
1.
The Minister of Finance
(a)
Amendment to the exemptions made in Government Notice No R1596 published
in Government Gazette No 24176 dated 20 December 2003, under section 74 of
the Financial Intelligence Centre Act, 2001 (Act No 38 of 2001).
(b)
Explanatory Memorandum on the second reporting exemption in terms of the
Financial Intelligence Centre Act, 2001 (Act No 38 of 2001).
(c)
Government Notice No 1156 published in Government Gazette No 26866 dated
14 October 2004: Setting out particulars of areas demarcated by municipalities of
Johannesburg and Cape Town, which shall constitute urban development zones,
in terms of the Income Tax Act, 1962 (Act No 58 of 1962).
11 NOVEMBER 2004
2.
PAGE: 156
The Minister of Defence
(a)
Southern African Development Community (SADC) Mutual Defence Pact ("the
Pact"), tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996 (Act No 108 of
1996).
(b)
Explanatory Memorandum on the Southern African Development Community
(SADC) Mutual Defence Pact ("the Pact").
(c)
United Nations Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child on
the Involvement of Children in Armed Conflicts, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of
the Constitution, 1996 (Act No 108 of 1996).
(d)
Explanatory Memorandum to the United Nations Optional Protocol to the
Convention on the Rights of the Child on the Involvement of Children in Armed
Conflicts.
3.
The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development
Government Notice No R880 published in Government Gazette No 26601 dated 23 July
2004: Magistrates' Courts: Amendment of the Rules of the Court, in terms of the Rules
Board for Courts of Law, 1985 (Act No 107 of 1985).
National Assembly:
11 NOVEMBER 2004
1.
PAGE: 157
The Speaker
Report of the Delegation to the 111th Interparliamentary Union (IPU) Conference
in Geneva.
CREDA PLEASE INSERT - Insert 1111IPU.DOC
2.
The Speaker
Draft notice and schedule in terms of section 2(4) of the Judges' Remuneration and
Conditions of Employment Act, 2001 (Act No 47 of 2001), determining the rate at which
salaries are payable to Constitutional Court Judges and Judges annually, with effect
from 1 April 2004, for approval by Parliament.
CREDA PLEASE INSERT - Insert two scanned pages (only available from PDF)
3.
The Speaker
Draft notice and schedule in terms of section 12(3) of the Magistrates Act, 1993 (Act No
90 of 1993), determining the rate at which salaries are payable to magistrates annually,
with effect from 1 April 2004, for approval by Parliament.
CREDA PLEASE INSERT - Insert four scanned pages (only available from PDF)
11 NOVEMBER 2004
PAGE: 158
COMMITTEE REPORTS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
1.
Report of the Joint Committee on Ethics and Members' Interests on Allegations of nondisclosure by Members of Parliament, dated 8 November 2004:
CREDA PLEASE INSERT REPORT - 1111ethi.DOC
National Assembly:
CREDA PLEASE INSERT REPORT - Insert 1ATC1111