razgovarali
interviewed by fotografije photographs by
portreti portraits
Luciano Basauri
Ana Dana Beroš
Luís Ferreira Alves (LFA)
Manuel Magalhães (MM)
Christian Richters (CR)
Souto de Moura archive (SMA)
Damil Kalogjera
Vera Grimmer
Ljepota je
napetost
između dvije
različite stvari
Beauty is
the Tension
Between Two
Different Things
¶ Najfascinantnijim sportskim objektom novijeg doba gradskim stadionom u Bragi - Eduardo Souto de Moura
pos­tao je i globalno poznat, dok su stručni krugovi već dugo
s priz­nanjem pratili njegov konzistentan, ali i ambivalentan
put u arhitekturi. Kao učenik i suradnik autoriteta kao što
su Fernando Távora i Álvaro Siza, on započinje rad u doba
postmodernizma jasnom odlukom za radikalni modernizam,
pri čemu su njegovi heroji bili istodobno i Aldo Rossi i Mies
van der Rohe. ¶ U svojoj arhitekturi Souto razvija strategiju
čija je prirodnost konstruirana jer mu je mramor Pantheona
draži od mramora u planini. Soutova arhitektura, premda
prividno sukladna i jednostavna, nije linearni proces, već u
njemu ima mjesta i za proizvoljnosti i kontradiktornosti.
¶ With the Municipal Stadium in Braga, one of the most
fascinating recent sports buildings, Eduardo Souto de Moura
achieved worldwide fame, while professional circles have long
been approvingly following his consistent, yet ambivalent path
in architecture. As a student and associate of authorities like
Fernando Távora and Álvaro Siza, he started his work in the age
of postmodernism with a clear decision to go along the path
of radical modernism, championing Aldo Rossi and Mies at the
same time.¶ In his architecture, Souto develops a strategy of
fabricated naturalness, because he prefers the marble of the
Pantheon to marble still in the mountain. Souto’s architecture,
although seemingly harmonious and simple, is not a linear
process, but allows arbitrariness and contradiction.
Razgovarali u Zagrebu
8. svibnja 2009.
Interviewed in Zagreb,
8 May 2009
Eduardo Souto de Moura
8
oris, broj 60, godina 2009 oris, number 60, year 2009
Eduardo Souto de Moura
Eduardo Souto De Moura, interview
9
10
Oris — Kad ste vi završili studij arhitekture, jezik arhitekture
u Europi i SAD-u je bio postmoderan, no vi ste svoj rad za­
po­čeli kao otpor tom postmodernom sustavu. Je li to bi­lo
djelomično zbog toga što je u to vrijeme u Portugalu na­kon
Revolucije karanfila društvo bilo demokratičnije, pa hije­
rarhijsko korištenje postmoderne arhitekture ne bi bilo prik­
ladno? ¶ EDUARDO SOUTO DE MOURA — Dva su razloga za
takav otpor. Prvi je što je tijekom pedeset godina fa­šizma
moderna arhitektura bila zabranjena; to se tada smat­ra­
lo komunističkim. Ako ste kao mladi arhitekt htjeli eks­
perimentirati s modernom arhitekturom, morali ste ići
ra­diti u afričke kolonije. Drugi razlog je to što sam nakon
završetka Revolucije bio mlad arhitekt. Radio sam sa Sizom,
no učio sam i od Alda Rossija. Shvaćao sam neke kritike mo­
der­nizma, no jedna stvar su Rossi i arhitekti eruditi, a druga
stvar je nepravedna kritika modernizma. Modernizam je bio
‘kriv’ za sve probleme grada i stanovanja. Osim toga, svoju
sam profesionalnu karijeru započeo u zemlji bez stambenog
prostora, bolnica, škola i ostalog. Nakon Revolucije izrađeni
su programi za obnovu zemlje; bilo je dosta problema sa
sta­novanjem, školama i tako dalje, što me podsjećalo na
Europu nakon rata. Modernizam nije predstavljao odabir
jezika, nego priliku za obnovu zemlje. Rekao sam sam sebi
da nije nužno da se služim tim postmodernim jezikom ako
nema novaca, a i smatrao sam da je glupo da se u zemlji kao
što je Portugal grade stupovi, vijenci i sl. Dva su razloga:
jedan je osobne prirode, a drugi je pragmatičan.
Oris — Koliko vam je bitno pitanje kontinuiteta? Jednom ste
rekli da se tipologija kuće nije mijenjala od rimskih vremena.
Ta druga koža, što kuća za čovjeka ili obitelj jest, ne mijenja
toliko svoju tipologiju jer se čovjek ne mijenja. ¶ EDUARDO
SOUTO DE MOURA — Čovjek se mijenja, no kuća se ne mijenja
toliko, barem tako mislim. Nije to konzervativan pogled na
ovu teoriju. Smatram da je moja glavna kritika upućena post­
modernizmu proizašla iz toga što je postmoderna kritika
bila nepoštena prema modernizmu. Modernizam nije protiv
povijesti, nije protiv klasicizma. To je novi klasicizam, samo s
drugim materijalima, drugim tehnologijama, no tipovi su isti.
Radi se o drugačijem načinu gledanja, kao kod Picassa, koji
je naslikao klasične slike o povijesti Španjolske na drugačiji
način.
Oris — Porazgovarajmo o ranom modernističkom pokretu u
Portugalu i vašem učitelju Fernandu Távori. On je prvi iznio
konstruktivnu kritiku modernog pokreta i u portugalsku
arhitekturu uključio modernističke tradicije i lokalna znanja.
Kako je njegovo učenje utjecalo na vaš rad? ¶ EDUARDO
SOUTO DE MOURA — Mislim da je imao razloga da preporuči
Oris — At the time when you finished your studies, the
language of architecture in Europe and the US was postmodern,
but your work began as resistance to this postmodern sys­
tem. Was it partly because at that time in Portugal after the
Carnation Revolution, society was more democratic and
hie­rarchical use of postmodern architecture would not be
appropriate. ¶ EDUARDO SOUTO DE MOURA — There are
two reasons. The first, during fifty years of fascism, modern
architecture was forbidden, it was considered communist.
If a young architect wanted to experiment in modern
architecture, he would have had to do something in the
African colonies. Second, when the revolution finished, I
was a young architect working with Siza, and I also studied
and worked with Aldo Rossi. I understood some criticism
about modernism, but one thing is Rossi and the erudite
architects, and another thing was the unjust criticism
towards modernism. For all the problems of the city and
housing, modernism was guilty. I started my profession
in a country without housing, hospitals, schools and so
on. There were some programmes after the revolution, to
rebuild the country. After the revolution, there were a lot
of problems with housing, schools and so on, and for me it
was something similar to Europe after the war. Modernism
was not a choice of language but a possibility to rebuild the
country. I said I don’t have to work with this postmodern
language because I have no money, and I think it is stupid
for a country like Portugal to have columns and so on. I
don’t know whether this answers your questions about two
reasons: one is personal and the other is pragmatic.
Oris — How important is the issue of continuity for you?
You said once that house typology has not really changed
since Roman times. This second skin, which a house is for a
man or a family, doesn’t change so much in typology because
man doesn’t change. ¶ EDUARDO SOUTO DE MOURA — Man
changes, but the house doesn’t change so much, I think. It’s
not a conservative view about this theory. What I think is
that the first thing when I criticize postmodernism saying
that postmodernism criticism is unjust, towards modernism.
Modernism is not against history, it isn’t against classicism.
It’s a new classicism with other materials, other technologies,
but the types are the same. It’s another way to see, like Picasso.
He repainted the classic pictures about the history of Spain
in another way.
Oris — Let’s speak about the early modern movement
in Portugal and your teacher Fernando Távora. He was
the first to make constructive criticism of the modernist
movement and the inclusion of the modern tradition
oris, broj 60, godina 2009 oris, number 60, year 2009
Središnja tržnica,
Braga, Portugal,
1980.-1984.
Central Market in
Braga, Portugal,
1980-84
(MM)
Središnja tržnica,
Braga, Portugal,
1980.-1984.
Central Market in
Braga, Portugal,
1980-84
(MM)
Eduardo Souto De Moura, intervju
Eduardo Souto De Moura, interview
11
and local knowledge in Portuguese architecture. How has
his teaching affected your work? ¶ EDUARDO SOUTO DE
MOURA — I think that he had a reason when he proposed
some books about architecture and when he talked about
Team X criticizing Le Corbusier. I think he had a reason. But I
think it’s a problem of time. Its very approach was very radical.
You can prove that Le Corbusier was a classical architect. He
invented architecture with modern possibilities, with local
materials and local typologies. And they work very well with
a great architect. But I think that Távora reduced the problem
because he cannot use the traditional and the vernacular
Aaltu jer je Siza morao ići u Berlin. Pitao me mogu li ja održati
to predavanje. Bilo ga je, međutim, strah, pa me pitao što
ću reći o Alvaru Aaltu, koji baš i nije bio moj junak. Bio je
vrlo radikalan i nisam se s njim pretjerano slagao. Njegovi su
projekti vrlo dobro izrađeni, no ako želite biti ekspresionist
i pobuditi emocije, arhitektura nije prava disciplina da to
iskažete. Ako želite pobuditi emocije, skladate glazbu, slikate,
pišete poeziju i slično. Ne zanimaju me kocke na finskim
jezerima. Siza se jako razljutio. ‘Ti njega ne razumiješ, a radiš
u mom uredu!’, urlao je. Potom me pitao tko je moj junak.
‘Mies van der Rohe’, kazao sam.
and so on. I’m not interested in the cubes in lakes in Finland.
And Siza was completely furious. ‘You don’t understand him,
and you work in my office!’ he yelled. He then asked me who
my hero was. ‘Mies van der Rohe,’ I said.
Oris — Are you interested in Mies’s artefacts or in his search
for an ideal Platonic form? ¶ EDUARDO SOUTO DE MOURA — I
love Mies, but he’s the most contradictory architect I know.
And when someone is contradictory, it means that he’s a
rich man. Mies was fresh air after Michael Graves and so
on. I was invited to make a market in Braga. I said I would
make something clear with structure, I need something clear.
neke knjige o arhitekturi i govori o kritici Le Corbusiera od
strane Teama X. Mislim da je imao razloga, no smatram da
se radi o problemu vremena. Taj pristup je sam po sebi bio
vrlo radikalan. Možete dokazati da je Le Corbusier klasični
arhitekt. On je osmislio arhitekturu modernih mogućnosti,
lokalnih materijala i lokalnih tipologija, što doista dobro
funkcionira u kombinaciji sa sjajnim arhitektom. No smat­
ram da je Távora ograničio taj problem, jer u gradu nije mo­
gao koristiti tradicionalni i pučki diskurs budući da je grad
moderan. Nakon rata pokrenuta je nova kultura - to je urbana
kultura kao što je pariška filozofija, kao jazz glazba. Távora je
išao u planine i proučavao kuće u selima, što je bilo pomalo
nostalgično i romantično, no isto tako i vrlo opasno jer je
Salazar želio nacionalnu portugalsku arhitekturu. Lekcije iz
tradicionalne i pučke arhitekture ne mogu se upotrijebiti u
gradu. Sjećam se jednog događaja: dok sam radio sa Sizom,
od mene su tražili da u Lisabonu održim predavanje o Alvaru
lessons of discourse in the city, because the city is modern.
After the war, when a new culture was started, like Parisian
philosophy, it’s an urban culture, like jazz music. He was trying
to go to the mountains to study the houses in the villages.
It’s a bit nostalgic and romantic. It was also very dangerous
because Salazar wanted a national Portuguese architecture.
The lessons of traditional history and vernacular architecture
cannot be used in the city. I remember one time while I was
working with Siza, they asked me to do a lecture about Alvar
Aalto in Lisbon because he couldn’t go, he had to be in Berlin.
He asked whether I could do this lecture. But of course, he
was afraid, so he asked what I was going to say about Alvar
Aalto. And he was not my hero. He was very radical, and I
didn’t agree with him very much. His designs are made very
well, but if he wants to be an expressionist and to provoke
emotions, architecture is not a discipline for this. If you want
to provoke emotions, you make music, paintings, write poetry
Oris — Zanimaju li vas Miesovi artefakti ili njegova potraga
za idealnom platonskom formom? ¶ EDUARDO SOUTO DE
MOURA — Volim Miesa, ali on je jedan od najproturječnijih
arhitekata koje poznajem. Kad je netko proturječan, to
znači da je bogat čovjek. Mies je predstavljao dašak svježeg
zraka nakon Michaela Gravesa i sličnih. Bio sam dobio
poziv za projektiranje tržnice u Bragi. Htio sam napraviti
nešto jasno, sa strukturom. Trebala mi je struktura bez
materijala, tako da sam počeo proučavati Miesa. On je
pokrenuo postmodernizam govoreći da su oblici istiniti, a
da materijali nisu. Kod Miesa su sve strukture manipulirane.
Uglovi Miesovih zgrada su vrlo elegantni, no nisu pravi
uglovi. Struktura nije prava struktura, kao što to nisu ni
fasade i tako dalje. Sviđa mi se ta proturječnost. ¶ Da je
proturječan čovjek bogat čovjek, odražava se i u radu u
kojem je proturječnost potrebna. Kad je otkrio Franka Lloyda
Wrighta i nizozemski neoplasticizam, čitavo je vrijeme
I needed a structure, without material. I started studying
Mies. He started postmodernism saying that the shapes
are true and the materials are not true. All the structures
of Mies are manipulated. The corners of Mies’ building are
very elegant, but they aren’t real corners. The structure is
not real structure, façades and so on. I like this contradiction.
¶ Contradictive man as a rich man is also reflected in the
work that needs contradiction. When he discovered Frank
Lloyd Wright and Dutch neoplasticism, he had at all times
this ideas about open, abstract, unfinished, perhaps it’s even
classicism. He had a house in Lake Shore Drive but never
went to live there. He proposed his furniture for all these
apartments. If you see the photographs of Mies’s House,
sitting in an armchair with a lamp, with books, with Picasso
and Kandinsky, it’s a contradiction I gave a lecture saying
why Mies van der Rohe never goes to live in Lake Shore
Drive.
oris, broj 60, godina 2009 oris, number 60, year 2009
Eduardo Souto De Moura, intervju
Eduardo Souto De Moura, interview
Skica s intervjua
12
Sketch from the
interview
13
Dvije luće u Ponte de
Limi, Ponte de Lima,
Portugal, 2001.-2002.
Two houses in Ponte de
Lima, Ponte de Lima,
Portugal, 2001-2002
(LFA)
Skica s intervjua
Dvije kuće u El Dueru, Mesão Frio,
Portugal, 2004., kuća 2, maketa
Sketch from the
interview
(SMA)
imao ideje o otvorenosti, apstraktnom, nedovršenom,
što je možda čak i klasicizam. Imao je stan u Lake Shore
Driveu, no nikada u njemu nije živio. Za sve stanove je tamo
predlagao svoj dizajnirani namještaj. Kad vidite fotografiju
Miesova doma - on sjedi u fotelji uz svjetiljku, s knjigama,
Picassom i Kandinskim. To je kontradiktorno. Održao sam
predavanje na temu zašto Mies van der Rohe nikada nije
živio u Lake Shore Driveu.
Oris — Mislim da se tu radi više o vama nego o Miesu van der
Roheu, no s druge strane, budući da je Mies vrlo važna figura,
bitno je znati što mislite o njemu. Nitko se doista ne usudi
kritizirati Miesa. Vi ga ne kritizirate, vi stvarate podvojenost.
Slažete li se da postoji dosljedna filozofija čiji je glavni moto
svim sredstvima zaključivanja i razmišljanja postići da se
stvari doimaju jednostavnim, kao da su nastale bez muke, kao
da nisu teret ili isforsirane, kao da su prirodno sastavljene
i razmještene? Isto kao kod bilo koje vrste diskursa ili
14
oris, broj 60, godina 2009 Dvije kuće u El Dueru, Mesão Frio,
Portugal, 2004., kuća 1, maketa
(SMA)
oris, number 60, year 2009
Two houses in El Duero, Mesão Frio,
Portugal, 2004, House 2, model
Two houses in El Duero, Mesão Frio,
Portugal, 2004, House 1, model
racionalnog zaključivanja - kad želite prenijeti složenu misao,
morate to učiniti tako da izgleda da se radi o jednostavnoj
misli koja se može prenijeti svakome. ¶ EDUARDO SOUTO DE
MOURA — Nemam problema s bilo kojom vrstom efekta koji
želite postići, bilo kojom vrstom sredstava koje morate imati
za postizanje određenog učinka. ¶ To je nalik onome što je
radio Borges; uložite puno truda u pisanje tako da se doima
da to radite bez po muke. No ipak Mies ne koristi pročišćenu
arhitekturu jer iz njegovog objekta možete uzeti mnogo
dijelova.
Oris — Govorili smo o Távori. Citirali ste njegovu izreku da je u
arhitekturi suprotno također istinito. Izradili ste dva projekta,
dvije kuće u Ponte de Limi i dvije kuće u El Dueru. Imaju isti
program, no tu ste ideju prikazali doslovno, naime, pokazali
ste da stav može biti u potpunosti suprotan. ¶ EDUARDO
SOUTO DE MOURA — To je istina jer te su dvije kuće neovisne.
Ljudi su kroz povijest ponekad gradili građevine poput zamaka
ili palača. Možemo to učiniti vrlo artificijelno govoreći ‘Evo me,
stigao sam’ ili učiniti nešto smirenije koje kao da govori ‘Živim
ovdje, ali ne želim nikome smetati’. Ako imate različite obitelji,
različita mjesta za život, glupo je kuće učiniti istima. Predložio
Oris — I think that this is more about you than Mies van
der Rohe, but then again, Mies being a very important
figure, it is important to know what are your thoughts
about him. Nobody really dares criticize Mies van der Rohe.
You’re not criticizing him, you’re making a dichotomy.
Would you agree that the philosophy is quite consistent in
the way that the main motto is to think with the maximum
means of reasoning and thought, to make things appear
easy, as if they are effortless, as if they are not a burden,
as if they are not forced, as if they are sort of naturally
composed and arranged, deployed. The same as any kind
of discourse or rational reasoning when you want to
convey a complex thought, you have to dominate a force
so that it appears a simple thought that everybody can
relate to. ¶ EDUARDO SOUTO DE MOURA — I don’t have
problems with any kind of effect you need to achieve,
any kind of means you need to have in order to achieve a
particular effect. ¶ It is like Borges used to do; write with
a lot of effort so as to appear effortless. Mies doesn’t use
a depurated architecture since you can take away many
pieces from the object.
Eduardo Souto De Moura, intervju
Eduardo Souto De Moura, interview
15
sam jednu vodoravnu i jednu vertikalnu kuću, a klijent mi je
rekao: ‘Nikad nisam mislio da bi moja kuća za odmor bila to­
ranj. Moj je san imati nešto vodoravno, s bazenom i krovom’.
Smatram da je Távora razlog za to objašnjenje. U arhitekturi
može postojati proturječnost kao kod Corbusiera:i Machine
à habiter i Ronchamp.
Oris — Kad govorimo o proturječnosti u arhitekturi, vaš je
rad u biti prepleten nizom proturječnih koncepata, počevši
od koncepta autentičnosti i simulacije ili čak složenosti ili po­
jednostavljenja oblikovanja. Ustvari, većinu tih pro­turječ­nosti
možemo pratiti u vašem projektu gradskog stadiona u Bragi.
¶ EDUARDO SOUTO DE MOURA — Jedna je stvar pokazati
proturječnosti jer je arhitektura bogata i dobra. Ljepota je
napetost između dvije različite stvari. Tu napetost ponekad
Kuća u Moledu, Moledo
de Minho, Portugal,
1991.-1998.
House in Moledo,
Moledo de Minho,
Portugal, 1991-1998
(LAF)
presjek
section
tlocrt
plan
16
oris, broj 60, godina 2009 oris, number 60, year 2009
Oris — We were speaking about Távora. You quoted his
saying that in architecture the opposite is also true. You
have these two projects, two houses in Ponte de Lima and
two houses in El Duero. They have the same programme, but
you demonstrate this idea literally, how the attitude can be
completely opposite. ¶ EDUARDO SOUTO DE MOURA — It’s
true because these two houses are independent. During
history, sometimes people made the houses here like castles
or palaces. We can make this very artificial, saying ‘I’m here,
I’ve arrived,’ or put something calmer, saying ‘I live here but I
don’t want to disturb anybody.’ If you have different families,
different places of life, it’s stupid to make them equal. I
proposed one house horizontal and another one vertical.
And the client said, ‘I never thought my holiday house was
možemo prikazati kao pisci ili možemo raditi arhitekturom.
Primjerice, najproturječnija kuća za koju nitko neće reći da
je doista takva je kuća s mnoštvom platformi u kamenu u
Moledo do Minhu. Izmijenio sam obronak, sve sam uništio,
stvorio nove platforme, a klijent je sve platio. Ljudi su rekli da
je ‘kuća vrlo tiha, vrlo dobro konfigurirana’.
Oris — Kad govorimo o toj kući, mogli bismo reći da su tu
radi o nečemu što nazivate la naturalitad, što je također bitna
tema vašeg rada. ¶ EDUARDO SOUTO DE MOURA — Tako je,
takvu tenziju trebam. Arhitektura je nešto umjetno. Mrzim te
prirodne oblike, no volim minimalne racionalne oblike. Mrzim
kad ljudi kažu ‘Ovo je cool, podsjeća na žensko tijelo’. Volim
žene, no ne vidim razlog zašto bi oblici u arhitekturi morali tako
izgledati ili podsjećati na siluetu Copacabane. Naturalizam je
jedna stvar, arhitektura je druga. ‘Naturalno’ znači da je to
nešto što je stvorio Bog, dok je ‘arhitekturu’ stvorio čovjek.
Nisam religiozan, no vjerski sam odgojen, poštujem to, no
više mi se sviđaju stvari koje je stvorio čovjek nego one koje je
stvorio Bog. Draži mi je Partenon od mramora u planini koji je
stvorio Bog. Načela pejzažne arhitekture 16. stoljeća su: unijeti
reda u kaos. Potrebna mi je priroda da stvorim tenziju između
a tower. My dream is to have something horizontal, with a
swimming pool and a roof.’ I think that Távora is a reason for
this explanation. In architecture contradiction can exist, like
by Corbusier, the machine à habiter and then Ronchamp.
Oris — Talking about contradiction in architecture, your
work is actually intertwined with a number of contradictory
concepts. We can start with the concept of authenticity
and simulation, or even the complexity or simplification of
Eduardo Souto De Moura, intervju
Eduardo Souto De Moura, interview
Crkva Gospe od
milosrđa, Maia,
Portugal, 1998.-,
presjek
Church of Miserycordy,
Maia, Portugal, 1998-,
section
Crkva Gospe od
milosrđa, Maia,
Portugal, 1998.-,
maketa
Church of Miserycordy,
Maia, Portugal, 1998-,
model
17
design. Actually, we can follow most of these contradictions
in your project for the Braga municipal stadium. ¶ EDUARDO
SOUTO DE MOURA — One thing is to show the contradictions,
because architecture is rich and good. Beauty is the tension
between two different things. We can show this tension
sometimes as writers, or we can work in architecture. For
instance, the most contradictory house, and nobody says that
it is like that, is a house with a lot of platforms in stone, in
Moledo do Minho. I changed the mountain, and I destroyed
all the things, I made another platform, the client paid. People
said, ‘Oh, the house is very quiet, very well configured.’
Prenamjena samostana
Santa María do Bouro u
državni hotel,
Amares, Portugal,
1989.-1997.
Conversion of Santa
María do Bouro
Monastery into a State
Inn Hotel,
Amares, Portugal,
1989-1997
(LFA)
Oris — When we speak about this house, we can see this is
what you call ‘la naturalitad’, which is also an important issue
in your work. ¶ EDUARDO SOUTO DE MOURA — Yes, because
I need this tension. Architecture is something artificial. I hate
these natural shapes, but I like minimal rational shapes. When
they say, ‘Oh, this is cool, it reminds me of a woman’s body,’ I
like women, but I don’t see a reason why shapes in architecture
have to look like that or like the silhouette of Copacabana.
Naturalism is one thing, architecture is another. ‘Natural’
means it was made by God, ‘architecture’ is made by man. I’m
not religious, but I had a religious education, I respect it, but I
prefer things made by man to things made by God. I prefer the
Parthenon to the marble stone in the mountain made by God.
¶ These are the principles of landscape architecture of the 16th
century, to put order in chaos. ¶ I need nature to make the
tension between the two. What is tension? If it’s too much,
it’s ridiculous, and if it’s violent, it’s also ridiculous. But if it is
calm, like Mies van der Rohe’s work, I like that tension.
Oris — In two projects, in Estadio and in the project for
Church of Misericordy you are using nature, but nature which
18
oris, broj 60, godina 2009 oris, number 60, year 2009
Eduardo Souto De Moura, intervju
Eduardo Souto De Moura, interview
19
Prenamjena samostana Santa María
do Bouro u državni hotel,
Amares, Portugal, 1989.-1997.
Prenamjena samostana
Santa María do Bouro u
državni hotel,
Amares, Portugal,
1989.-1997.
Conversion of Santa María do Bouro
Monastery into a State Inn Hotel,
Amares, Portugal, 1989-1997
Conversion of Santa
María do Bouro
Monastery into a State
Inn Hotel,
Amares, Portugal,
1989-1997
(LFA)
(LFA)
20
te dvije stvari. Što je tenzija? Apsurdno je ako je ima previše,
ali apsurdna je i ako je nasilna. No ako je tenzija smirena, kao
u radovima Miesa van der Rohea, to mi se sviđa.
Oris — U dva projekta - u projektu Estadio i u projektu za
crkvu Gospe od milosrđa - koristite prirodu, no prirodu koju je
čovjek već promijenio. Radili ste u kamenolomu, što unosi još
više tenzija. ¶ EDUARDO SOUTO DE MOURA — Jedna je stvar
poetska tenzija - nešto što vidite ili osjećate - no smatram da
se tu radi o fizičkoj tenziji. Kad govorimo o stadionu, htio
sam uvesti beton i kablove. Trebao mi je kamen iz planine
is already changed by man. You’re working in a quarry, and this
adds more tension. ¶ EDUARDO SOUTO DE MOURA — One
thing is poetic tension, something you see or feel, and I think
it’s physical tension. When we speak about the stadium, I
needed to introduce the concrete and cables. I needed the
stone of the mountain to fix the cables but the stone was
not enough to sustain the cables. There is a detail where
the concrete enters into the stone, and the negative in the
concrete to put the cable, and you can see that they are both
working. This is physical. And I use this physical tension.
da učvrstim kablove, no kamen nije bio dovoljan da ih po­
dupre. Ima jedan detalj - tu beton ulazi u kamen. Kabel se
umeće u negativ u betonu i možete vidjeti da obje te stvari
funkcioniraju. Radi se o fizičkoj stvari i ja koristim fizičku
tenziju.
Oris — Razgovarali smo o lokaciji, mjestu na kojem gradite.
Rekli ste da vam je to alat kojim stvarate arhitekturu, baš
kao što je to olovka, instrument. Manipulirate lokacijom.
¶ EDUARDO SOUTO DE MOURA — Morate manipulirati lo­
kacijom. Ako njom ne manipulirate, ona ostaje prirodna.
Oris — Rekli ste da vas zanimaju ruševine. ‘To je ono što
najviše volim kod arhitekture, jer one su prirodno stanje
jed­nog djela.’ Pomalo pesimistično, ali lijepo rečeno. Doista,
kad se približavate samostanu Santa María do Bouro, imate
dojam da se radi o ruševini, no kako prilazite bliže, vidite tu
čitavu divnu arhitekturu i savršene detalje koji se tamo nalaze.
Čini se da čitav projekt živi od te dvosmislenosti. ¶ EDUARDO
SOUTO DE MOURA — Radi se o dva pitanja: jedno je pitanje
ruševine, a drugo Santa María do Bouro. Volim ruševine jer
su one jedina istinita stvar u arhitekturi. Toliko su istinite
da su prirodne. Druga stvar je Santa María. Prvo sam išao
vidjeti lokaciju na kojoj je projekt imao biti izrađen. To nije
bitno za arhitekturu, ali je bitno meni. Bio je to spomenik
oris, broj 60, godina 2009 oris, number 60, year 2009
Eduardo Souto De Moura, intervju
Oris — We were talking about the site, the place on which
you are building. You said that this is a tool for you to
make architecture, just like a pencil is, an instrument. You
manipulate the site. ¶ EDUARDO SOUTO DE MOURA — You
need to manipulate the site, if you don’t manipulate it, it’s
natural.
Oris — You said, ‘I am interested in ruins, that is what I
like most about architecture, because they are the natural
state of a work.’ It’s a bit pessimistic, but beautifully said.
Indeed, when one approaches the Santa María do Bouro
Eduardo Souto De Moura, interview
21
Gradski stadion u
Bragi, Braga, Portugal,
2000.-2003.
Braga Municipal
Stadium, Braga,
Portugal, 2000-2003
(LFA)
22
koji sam poznavao još iz djetinjstva. Moja majka živi ondje,
tako da sam često posjećivao taj ruševni spomenik. Ono što
je tamo doista zanimljivo je drveće na krovu. Vrt mi se svidio,
svidjela mi se i soba s kamenim stolom i drveće na krovu, a
ne u zemlji: predložio sam da napravim nešto blisko Távori,
jer je bio učitelj povijesti i dosta radio na obnovi. Napravio
sam taj projekt potpuno drugačije, vrlo radikalno, sa svim
tim ruševinama i poviješću i tim vrlo radikalnim modelom. Ja
sam mislio da moderno obuhvaća staklo ili čelik i slično. Ne,
kamen je moderan, tako da sam napravio tu vrlo primarnu
tenziju. Pokazao sam projekt Távori, a on me jako kritizirao.
Na kraju sam Távoru i Sizu pozvao tamo na ručak, a nakon
toga mi je Távora napisao pismo u kojem je pisalo sljedeće:
‘Dragi Eduardo’, budući da je bio moj učitelj ali i moj prijatelj,
‘samostan mi se izuzetno sviđa. Budući da sam tvoj učitelj,
neću ti dati ocjenu 20 (najviša ocjena), nego 19, zato što
građevina nema krov.’ To je razlog zašto volim ruševine, to
je kao da proučavate anatomiju. Francuski arhitekt August
Perret rekao je da od dobrih zgrada uvijek nastaju dobre
ruševine.
oris, broj 60, godina 2009 Gradski stadion u
Bragi, Braga, Portugal,
2000.-2003.
Braga Municipal
Stadium, Braga,
Portugal, 2000-2003
(CR)
oris, number 60, year 2009
(CR)
Eduardo Souto De Moura, interview
23
materijale i građevinske sustave ili ponekad započinjete na
suprotan način, razmišljajući o materijalima koje biste željeli
koristiti? ¶ EDUARDO SOUTO DE MOURA — Radim oboje.
Ponekad radim dva projekta, dva modela i s dva tima u studiju.
Jedan tim radi kuću s vratima i prozorima, a drugi radi nešto
apstraktnije.
Oris — Dakle, u kreativnom procesu koristite mnoge vari­ja­
cije? ¶ EDUARDO SOUTO DE MOURA — Dosta radim u timu.
Ukoliko imam problem sa stuccom i betonom, nazovem inže­
njera. Ako ni tada nisam uspješan, onda pitam Sizu.
Oris — Govoreći o vašem procesu projektiranja, rado bismo
citirali vaše riječi o tom procesu kod Size: ‘Kada se čini da se
sve razvija bez poteškoća, Álvaro Siza izmisli poteškoće, stvori
određenu razinu drame, jer u protivnom prašinom prekrivene
makete posive.’ Osjećate li i vi taj afinitet za stvaranje i
izmišljanje problema kao alata za projektiranje? ¶ EDUARDO
SOUTO DE MOURA — Mislim da je kvaliteta bitna. Radi se o
convent, one really gets the impression of a ruin, but if you
come nearer, you see this whole perfect and wonderful
architecture and details which are there. It seems that the
whole project lives from this ambiguity. ¶ EDUARDO SOUTO
DE MOURA — There are two questions: one is ruins and
Santa María do Bouro is the other. I like ruins because they
are the only thing in architecture that is true. It’s so true
that it is natural. Another thing is Santa María. First I went
to see the place where the project would be made, it doesn’t
matter for architecture but it is important to me. It was a
monument that I knew from childhood. My mother lives
there, and I always visited this monument in ruins. What was
really interesting here was this thing with the trees on the
roof. It was the garden I liked, and I liked this room with the
table in stone, and the trees on the roof, not in the earth: I
proposed to make something near Távora because he was a
teacher of history and he made a lot of recuperation. I made
the project completely different, very radical, with these
ruins and history and this very radical model. I thought that
modern was glass or steel and so on. No, stone is modern,
so I made this very primary tension. I showed Távora the
project, and he strongly criticized me. At the end, I invited
Távora and Siza to lunch there, and Távora wrote me a letter
saying, ‘Dear Eduardo,’ since he was my teacher, as well as
my friend, ‘I very much like the monastery. Since I am your
teacher, I am giving you not 20 (the highest grade), but 19,
because the building has no roof.’ It’s the reason why I like
the ruins, because it’s like studying anatomy. The French
architect August Perret said that a good building gives
always a good ruin.
Oris — How important for you is the social concern and the
social effect of architecture? You said speaking about Braga
Stadium: ‘One must give people something they can be proud
of.’ ¶ EDUARDO SOUTO DE MOURA — When we were invited
to make the project, we went to see the site, to see whether
it is interesting, and to decide whether we would accept or
not. The only way to make a good decision is to visit the site
after the work and say whether it is better now, or better
without the stadium. I prefer the stadium there because I
like this game. It’s people in the end, and the name of the
work, it’s not my work, it’s not the Stadium of Eduardo, it’s
the Stadium of Braga. It’s there because the community
wants it there.
Oris — We come now to the issue of levitation, of floating.
The Faculty of Geosciences in Evora and also the Museum in
Braganza, you made their volumes float above the ground.
So this is a big issue today too, I think, this opposition to
Eduardo Souto De Moura, intervju
Eduardo Souto De Moura, interview
raspolaganju u naše doba. Da su Kinezi imali Caterpillarove
strojeve prilikom gradnje Kineskog zida, ne bi ga napravili
na isti način. Prema tome, mislim da imate obvezu koristiti
mogućnosti znanosti, arhitekture, umjetnosti i tako dalje.
Arhitekti ponekad mogu stvoriti white cube kao i napetost
jer postoje dva puta, dva ulaza.
Oris — Započinjete li ponekad projekt rješavanjem svih
potreba i primjenom vlastitog kreativnog i tehničkog znanja,
to jest, započinjete li tako da konačno rješenje objekta
podredite rezultatu koji želite postići te potom odabirete
Muzej moderne
umjetnosti Braganza,
Braganza, Portugal,
2002.-2008.
Braganza Museum of
Modern Art, Braganza,
2002-2008
(LFA)
24
Oris — Koliko vam je bitna briga za socijalno i socijalni
učinak arhitekture? Govoreći o stadionu u Bragi, rekli
ste: ‘Ljudima morate dati nešto na što će biti ponosni’.
¶ EDUARDO SOUTO DE MOURA — Kad smo bili pozvani da
izradimo projekt, otišli smo vidjeti lokaciju da bismo vidjeli
je li zanimljiva i odlučili hoćemo li je prihvatiti ili ne. Jedina
stvar za donošenje dobre odluke je posjetiti lokaciju nakon
što je rad završen i vidjeti je li bolja sada ili je bila bolja prije
nego što je stadion izgrađen. Više mi se sviđa stadion jer
volim tu igru; to je jedina mogućnost izbora. Na koncu, radi
se o ljudima jer stadion ne nosi moje ime, nije Eduardov
stadion, nego Stadion u Bragi. Tamo je zato što je zajednica
htjela da bude tamo.
Oris — Dolazimo do pitanja levitacije. Volumeni zgrada
Geodetskog fakulteta u Evori, kao i Muzeja u Braganzi,
lebde iznad tla. Mislim da je to danas aktualno pitanje, to
protivljenje gravitaciji. Koliko je to važno u vašem radu?
¶ EDUARDO SOUTO DE MOURA — Nikada ne govorim o
tome, no možda je lakoća to što mi se izuzetno sviđa. Radi
se o tekstu ‘Šest bilješki za sljedeće tisućljeće’ Itala Calvina.
Odgovorni smo za korištenje instrumenata koje imamo na
oris, broj 60, godina 2009 Sveučilište u Evori, Geodetski
fakultet, Evora, Portugal, 1990.-1994.
(LFA)
Muzej moderne umjetnosti Braganza,
Braganza, Portugal,
2002.-2008. maketa
oris, number 60, year 2009
Braganza Museum of Modern Art,
Braganza, 2002-2008, model
University of Evora, Department
of Geosciences, Evora, Portugal,
1990-1994
25
Poslovno-trgovački
toranj Burgo
Empreendimento,
Porto, Portugal,
1991.-2007.
Burgo
Empreendimento
Shop and Office Tower,
Porto, Portugal,
1991-2007
(LFA)
26
odgovoru na problem. Ako na nešto nema odgovora, ako nema
ni pritiska ni napetosti, ako klijent kaže ‘Napravite što god
želite, imam novca’ ili program ima jednu ili deset prostorija
smještenih ovako ili onako, onda je projekt suh, siguran sam
u to.
Oris — Dakle, sile koje su uključene u pretvaranje projekta
u arhitektonski objekt, sve te različite sile, potencijali, ogra­
ničenja i mogućnosti dopuštaju vam da stvorite i uvedete
razine složenosti. Postoji li slučaj u kojem uvodite vlastitu
razinu složenosti, a ne pratite samo kontekstualnu razinu?
¶ EDUARDO SOUTO DE MOURA — To je u interesu projekta.
Ukoliko ste zainteresirani, jako puno crtate i odlučujete što je
dobro i što nije. Izrađujete detalje da biste provjerili neku boju.
Izradite maketu, provjeravate je li visina dobra ili nije i tako
dalje, zato što vas zanima. Ako vas ne zanima, ne provjeravate
ništa.
Oris — Vi kontrolirate proces projektiranja i vaš način raz­
mišljanja i razmišljanja o projektu je vrlo proturječan. Ima
li u tim kontekstualna ograničenjima, i u onima koje sami
stvorite, mjesta za proizvoljne odluke? ¶ EDUARDO SOUTO
DE MOURA — Ima i to dosta. Smatram da su prve odluke
proizvoljne, baš kao što je i većina odluka u arhitekturi.
Rafael Moneo je u predavanju na Academia De Artes o
gra­vitation. What would you say about the importance of
this for your work? ¶ EDUARDO SOUTO DE MOURA — I never
talk about this, but perhaps there is lightness that I like
very much. It’s the Six Memos for the Next Millennium of
Italo Calvino. We are responsible for using the instruments
that we have in our times. If the Chinese had Caterpillars
to build the Great Wall of China, they wouldn’t have made
it the way it is today. Therefore I think you are obliged to
use the possibilities of science, architecture, art and so on.
Sometimes the architect can make the white cube and also
the tension, because there are two roads, two entrances.
Oris — Sometimes you might start projects resolving all the
requirements and also putting your creative and technical
know-how, of course, in which sometimes you would
subordinate the object, the final solution of the object
to the fact you want to achieve, and then you choose the
materials, construction systems, or do you sometimes start
the opposite way, you start thinking about the materials
you would like? ¶ EDUARDO SOUTO DE MOURA — I do both.
Sometimes I do two projects, two models and two teams
in the studio. One team does one house with the doors
and windows, and the other one does something more
abstract.
oris, broj 60, godina 2009 oris, number 60, year 2009
Eduardo Souto De Moura, intervju
Oris — So in your creative process you use many variations?
¶ EDUARDO SOUTO DE MOURA — I work a lot with a team.
If I have a problem between stucco and concrete, I phone the
engineer. And then if I have nothing, in the end I ask Siza.
Oris — If we can speak about your design process, I would
like to quote your words on Siza’s process: ‘When everything
seems to develop untroubled, Álvaro Siza invents difficulties,
he creates a degree of drama, if not, the dust covered mo­
dels turn grey.’ Do you also feel this affinity for creating or
inventing a problem as a design tool? ¶ EDUARDO SOUTO DE
MOURA — I think quality matters. It’s an answer to a prob­
lem. If there are no answers for something, if there is no
pressure or tension, if the clients say, ‘You can make whatever
you want, you have all the money,’ or the programme has
one or ten rooms placed like this or this, I’m sure that the
project is dry.
Oris — So the forces that are engaged in the production of a
design into an object of architecture, all the different forces,
potentials and limitations both, restrictions, possibilities
allow you to create and introduce levels of complexity. Is there
a case in which you introduce your own level of complexity,
not just following a contextual one? ¶ EDUARDO SOUTO
DE MOURA — It’s in the interest of the project. If you are
interested, you’re drawing a lot and deciding what is good
and what is not. You make details to check a colour. You
make a model, perhaps the height is not good and so on,
because you are interested. If you are not interested, you
don’t check.
Oris — You’re controlling the design process, and your way of
thinking and design reasoning is very contradictory. In these
limitations which are contextual, and the ones that you make,
is there any place for arbitrary decisions? ¶ EDUARDO SOUTO
DE MOURA — Yes, a lot. I think that the first decisions, most
decisions in architecture are arbitrary. Rafael Moneo spoke
in a lecture about the arbitrary in architecture given at the
Academia De Artes that architecture starts by being arbitrary.
The qualities that are going to justify the decisions, that are
or will be arbitrary, are the rules that you find or build in order
to support the arbitrariness. The whole process of design is
about finding out your own discourse, not only to justify, but
to play upon and give back coherence. He started the lecture
about how you can justify the Greek temples, because there
are physical reasons for it. But you don’t have reasons to
justify the Corinthian order. It’s a declaration, it’s something
arbitrary. It’s tough with an element that can’t be arbitrary,
and then we don’t know the answer to the question whether
arbitrary is good or not. When I work with Siza and I continue
Poslovno-trgovački
toranj Burgo
Empreendimento,
Porto, Portugal,
1991.-2007.
Eduardo Souto De Moura, interview
27
Burgo
Empreendimento
Shop and Office Tower,
Porto, Portugal,
1991-2007
(LFA)
28
proiz­voljnom u arhitekturi rekao da arhitektura započinje
proizvoljnošću. Kvalitete koje će opravdati odluke koje jesu
ili će biti proizvoljne su pravila koja otkrivate ili stvarate kao
podršku proizvoljnosti. Čitav proces projektiranja tiče se
otkrivanja vlastitog diskursa, ne samo da opravdate nego i da
se igrate i da vratite smisao. Započeo je predavanje o tome
kako možete opravdati grčke hramove jer za to postoji fizički
razlog. Međutim, nema razloga za opravdanje korintskog
reda. To je deklarativno, to je nešto proizvoljno. Teško je s
elementom koji ne može biti proizvoljan jer tada ne znamo
odgovor na pitanje je li proizvoljnost dobra ili nije. Kad radim
sa Sizom, a i dalje radim s njim, pa postavim pitanje kao što
je npr. ‘Zašto ovu kocku želite ovdje?’, on odgovori: ‘Zato što
mi se sviđa’.
Oris — U jednom od vaših tekstova citirali ste Nietzschea
govoreći da lice koje laže ustvari govori istinu. ¶ EDUARDO
SOUTO DE MOURA — Upotrijebio sam to za tekst o tornju
na aveniji Boavista, izrađenom od kamena i metala. Tu sam
koristio domino strukturu s metalom i kamenom. I čeličnu
strukturu, dva milimetra debelu. Sve nalikuje na kolaž. Ako bih
želio umetnuti vrata ili prozor, uništio bih sustav. Zato sam
napravio rotaciju. Ne vidi se prava struktura, nego maquillage.
Rekao sam: ‘Lice koje laže govori istinu’.
working with him, when I ask some questions like ‘Why do
you want this cube?’ he said, ‘Because I like it.’
Oris — You quoted Nietzsche in one of your texts, saying
that a face that lies is telling the truth. ¶ EDUARDO SOUTO
DE MOURA — I used it for the text on the tower on Boavista
Avenue. It is made of stone and metal in Boavista. I used a
Dom-ino structure and I used metal and stone. And I used
this steel structure two millimetres thick. And all the things
are like a collage. When I need to open a door in this system,
or put in a window, I destroy the system. Therefore, I made a
rotation. You do not see the real structure, but the maquillage.
But I said, the face that lies, tells the truth.
oris, broj 60, godina 2009 oris, number 60, year 2009
Eduardo Souto De Moura, interview
29