Partial transcript of an interview with Art Speigelman (1986)
‘As an art form the comic strip is barely past its infancy. So am I.
Maybe we'll grow up together’ (Spiegelman, 1974).
Introduction
At the time of the interview Art Spiegelman had been producing, chapter by chapter, a
comic strip based upon his father's recollections of life and deaths in Nazi occupied Poland. The
comic entitled Maus was serialised in Raw, ‘the graphix magazine of abstract depressionism’,
published annually in New York and was edited by Franciose Mouly and Art Spiegelman. The
following extracts are part of a longer piece published in the Oral History journal shortly before the
first volume of Maus appeared in book form. The reference to the full print version can be found
in:
Graham Smith (1987) ‘From Micky to Maus: recalling the Genocide
through cartoon’, Oral History, 15:1, 26-34.
Interview extracts
Tell me about Maus?
It's important to me that Maus is done in comic strip form, because it's the form I'm
most comfortable shaping and working with. Maus for me in part is a way of telling my
parents' life and therefore coming to terms with it. That's important to me. It's not a
matter of choice in the sense that I don't feel I could deal with this material as prose,
or as a series of paintings. or as a film, or as poetry.
Maus, the book I'm working on grew out of a comic strip I did in 1971 for an
underground comic book. A three page strip that was based on stories about my
father's and mother's that I recalled being told in childhood (reprinted in The Apex
Treasury of Underground Comics). When I finished the 1971 strip, I was pretty much
estranged from my father. I went back to him and showed him the strip as an excuse
to renew contact with him. Some of the information he gave me at that point actually
made me go back and rework the three page strip. And that led me to tape his
experiences in more full detail, and I spent about four days with him talking into a reelto-reel clunky tape recorder.
I have no background per se in history. Long after the interviews I did with my father I
found a book on oral history, read it, and found out that maybe I had gone about it in
an unorthodox way - I don't know. But since it was my father the situation was very uh
specific, and was so laden with psychological undercurrents I don't know if I could
have perceived it in any other way than I had.
I pretty much just let him put his story forward in which ever way he chose to do, and I
did not do much cross-examining or pushing for more detail. I just wanted to have
some record, not specifically at that point to use for another strip, but just out of
interest to have some record of what my father had gone through.
And that turned out to be about nine hours of tape. Well after that I again went into a
period of not spending much time speaking with my father. Anyway in 1977 I decided
to do this longer work that I've been working on ever since. At that point I set up an
arrangement to go see my father more often and talk to him about his experiences.
And this was a way for me to have a relationship with my father as much as it was to
get the information. When we focused on talking about his past it was something that
I was interested in and eh we could spend time without getting into heavy water where
we'd just start arguing or whatever.
When I went back to him I'd be taking notes, knowing at that point that I was going to
do a book. And found of course that was not the best way for me to get the
information down so I gotta tape recorder and came back and taped whatever was
possible. So one way or another most of it's on tape.
At the beginning my father was kind of self-conscious about me putting a microphone
to his muzzle, but by the end of it he seemed totally unaware of that. So much so that
I thought that he didn't realise that I was taping him, but at the very very end he'd grab
the microphone from me and gave some sort of code saying, "I hope people will never
forget the six million" and whatever - very out of character. He had somehow retained
the idea that this was for posterity.
How important was the accuracy not only of your father's story, but also, how he
recalled the story, to the final version?
Well, looking back at his various versions of the story I have t' kind of figure out what
probably happened, and that's sometimes based on using some reference book about
the period including one very specific work that was about Jews of his home town. It
was published in Polish after the war and I've had it translated as some kind of
objective guide post of dates. And to a degree I've been able to get correlating
information from a cousin of mine named Lolek Spiegelman, whose mentioned in
Maus, or from my step-mother, or from other friends of the family that I talked to. I've
done that to corroborate his story, on the other hand most of the story I can't
corroborate.
Although I set about in doing Maus to do a history of sorts I'm all too aware that
ultimately what I'm creating is a realistic fiction. The experiences my father actually
went through, there's what he's able to remember and what he's able to articulate of
these experiences. Then there's what I'm able to understand of what he articulated,
and what I'm able to put down on paper. And then of course there's what the reader
can make of that. Maus is so many steps removed from the actual experience, they're
so distant from each other that all I can do is hint at, intimate, and try for something
that feels real to me.
A typical room in a ghetto.
Photo credit: Meczenstwo Walka, Zaglada Aydów w Polsce 1939-1945. Poland. No.
117.
More stills from Polish ghetto life and death
The methods you use produce a distancingt. Why was this sought?
Yeah, yeah, uhum that was nice of you to say it that way, 'cause that was a phrase
that was in my mind when I was working on the material. Uh again I don't just feel that
I had that much choice about the way I've approached this material. Obviously I could
have chosen to do commercial art comic strips, which I was doing when I started
Maus and not dealt with the material at all. But once I started work on Maus I can't
really imagine having done the comic strip for instance with people rather than with
animals. And using the animals is one way that this distancing effect is achieved. If
I'd tried to do a comic strip about my parents' experiences with human characters in
which I tried to get likenesses of everyone I would be involved in a rather different
endeavour. I'd be a kind of counterfeiting of reality, in that I would be making the
pretence of being a camera wandering through the ghettos of Europe. That would be
something far enough away from my own direct experience that any attempt to do so
would be doomed to failure.
By using these mask-like faces, where characters look more or less the same, a
sketchier drawing style, I am able to focus one's attention on the narrative while still
telling it in comic strip form. So that distancing device actually brings one closer to the
heart of the material than a true comics approach.
Another thing I suppose is the fact that I've chosen to use a very sedate comic strip
format. If one compares the panel to panel layout in Maus to say a Marvel or
Japanese comic it's rather quiet. Most of the boxes are nice rectilinear forms, and
even rows - not very chaotic. It creates a kind of quietness and it makes you enter in,
rather than it aggressively coming out and grabbing your eyeballs. I've done other
comic strip works in the past, and probably will do others in the future, that have a
stronger, more overt, visual component. In this instance I wanted it to be quiet in that it
would force the reader into a relationship with the strip.
In looking at other art and literature that's been shaped from the holocaust - a
histrionic term I find problematic - that material is often very high pitched, very
histrionic. And I've always been put off it a bit; in that the materials so horribly strong.
That pitching for a tear or for and emotional response seems redundant. I felt a need
for a more subdued approach, which would incorporate these distancing devices like
using these animal mask faces.
Another aspect of the way I've chosen to use this material is that I've entered myself
into the story. So the way the story got told and who the story was told to is as
important, if not more important part of the story, than solely my father's narrative. To
me that's at the heart of the work. I suppose that's a distancing device in that one is
constantly brought back to how the story is being told. And of course being brought
back to whose telling the story and to whom they're telling the story and how that
colours the information. It leaves more in the control of the reader to understand, to
apply the reader's intelligence, and to pull out of the material what the reader will.
Some critics might complain that you've trivialised the treatment of the Jews, how
would you reply?
Well, Graham, if it was somebody else asking I'd tell them t' go fuck themselves frankly. Uhum, obviously I wouldn't put the kind of effort into this project if it was to
trivialise anything.
I suppose that someone saying that would probably believe that comics are
intrinsically trivial. It is my conviction that comics are a medium. They can be used to
do something trivial or used to do something else. Same is true for novels that range
from absolute pornography to James Joyce and William Faulkner. I believe that it's
true that comics haven't been used that way for the most part. But there are
occasional, beautiful, achievements in comic strips that aren't at all trivial. As a
medium it has certain advantages and disadvantages. Among the advantages I would
include a certain kind of accessibility, an immediacy, a certain kind of intimacy that is
to do with the interplay of one's own handwriting, as expressed in writing out the
balloons and the drawn signs that represents characters. It's immediate in that it
appears one step closer to uh the way the mind works than pure language. It also
doesn't require the high finance, and working with large groups of people that making
a movie would entail. It allows one to carry more narrative content than painting. It
just has it's own rules that's maybe too complex to go into now. But to work with an
interaction of words and pictures is nothing intrinsically trivial.
Uh, using the animals allowed me a handle on the material. It wasn't meant t' turn it
into a funny animal story. On the other hand it was intended to allow me to make
reference to and use cartoon conventions, of ideas that have to do with cat and
mouse chases. I suppose one of the original inspirations to do the story this way was
from seeing old animated cartoons in which cats and mice are portrayed. Mice are
kinds seen as "happy darkies," if you'll pardon the expression. The way blacks were
portrayed in these early cartoons and the ways mice are portrayed are almost
identical: uh, singing and dancing, playing, not being adults with responsibilities.
At first, the genesis of that first three page Maus strip was that I was asked to take
part in an underground comic that Robert Crumb was part of, and a few other
underground cartoonists who were based in San Francisco were part of. The only
editorial premise was one used anthropomorphised creatures rather than people. At
first I wanted to do comic strips about black oppression in America using cats and
mice. As I started I realised that this was a ridiculous thought in that I just didn't know
enough about the situation to be anything other than a liberal wimp with good
intentions, but not enough underlying knowledge about the situation to do uhum any
meaningful work. I realised that my own background included material of oppression
which could be more directly applied.
As soon as the idea hit I realised that there's all too much justification for it. The
rhetoric of the genocide that the Nazis used had to do with the extermination of
vermin; it wasn't murdering people, it was squashing parasites, lice, rats. In fact
there's a movie - a propaganda film - uh by a guy named Hippler, called The Eternal
Jew
(Der Ewige Jude - ein Filmbeitrag zum Problem des
Weltjudentums (The Eternal Jew - a film contribution to the
problem of World Jewry). See also this collection of papers on the
film
That was made under Goebbles during World War Two. In the movie there is a scene
of Jews milling around a ghetto and then it cuts to rats milling around a hole. And the
intertitle is very germane if I kind of find it…
I'll read it into the microphone here, one moment...
Let's see ... yeah, O.K. ‘Wherever rats turn up they spread annihilation throughout the
land, destroying property and food supplies. This is how they disseminate disease,
pestilence, leprosy, typhus, cholera, dysentery. Just like the Jews among mankind;
rats represent the very essence of subterranean destruction’. Uh, I've a number of
other quotes from the Nazi period that also uh cover the same kind of ground.
And I then would find references to the fact that, in one history of comics Hitler banned
Mickey Mouse from Germany, 'cause he thought they were a Jewish art - form and he
hated them as such.
I understand that the metaphor I'm using is just that. It's a metaphor and can't be
carried very far before it cracks. See on the hand I'm using these mice as Jews, cats
as Nazis, Poles as pigs, uhum dogs as Americans, and so on, in an ironic fashion, in
that on the surface at least this tends to, uh, verify the Nazi racial theories, and of
course that can't hold up as a ...tsssh… can't hold up even as a metaphor. And as a
result the metaphor cracks a number of times in the book. There's a point where my
father's travelling from prisoner of war camp, sneaking across the border to his own
part of Poland, the Poles feeling rather antipathetic towards the Germans, although
they also bore no love t' the Jews. My father never mentioned he was Jewish, he was
just wearing a Polish army uniform and said he'd escaped from a prisoner of war
camp and was trying to sneak back and some Poles helped him. Now in my comic
book if I did that straight I would have been in a bird in that the Pole pig looking at the
mouse in uniform would be aware that he was a mouse. So I had my father wearing a
pig mask, that's a mask on top of a mask, and it's obviously there as a way of calling
attention to the fact that this metaphor can't hold.
Uhum also in the course of the book there's a number of places where this thing, this
dynamic, operates, including in chapter five where I include an earlier strip I'd done
about my mother. There's this mouse cartoonist who draws a comic strip about his
mother committing suicide, and uh 'nd there's the cartoonist drawing about real
humanoid - types, which is a reversal of the situation that exists in the rest of the book.
There is also incorporated somewhere in that strip a photograph of my mother 'n' me.
Later in the book there'll be a photograph of my father incorporated in the book. All
these things are meant t' call attention to the fact that I'm making use of a set of ideas
that I'm not expecting anyone to take literally. I think that as one reads the book one
forgets of course that your reading about anything other than people, and this dynamic
pulls you up short, makes you think about the ideas I'm playing with.
Were there problems of using transcribed language in the cartoons?
One moment I'm going to put you on pause while I gather my thoughts. O.K., so I was
making these tapes and taking these notes, and I spent a long time organising that
information as best I could - chronologically. And from that began to break the
material down into chapter form and then into comic strip panels, which is the
language I'm comfortable with. 'Nd this breaking down did involve not using his exact
language, that is spoken language when transcribed. Transcription is not the easiest
language to understand and it also fills a lotta space ye know. In comic strip one has
to be efficient to be uh able to get ideas across in a small number of words so that
they will fit into a caption and a balloon. So there is a kind of reduction going on to get
to the essence of something. In the captions I've tried to capture my father's
cadences and speech pattern, and eh his specific kind of language if not always his
exact phrases. That's based on having spent many years listening to his language
while I was growing up and therefore feeling comfortable enough with it to be able to
make a facsimile of it or even a caricature of it.
I was able to use his exact words in the captions whenever that particular phrasing
was felicitous. Sometimes where that was the most beautiful way to say something,
although obviously it was not necessarily the grammatically correct way to say it.
I decided not to use my father's broken language for the balloons in the past.
Sometimes when telling me his story he would make up dialogue for various people
he'd been in contact with as if these were direct quotes, which he didn't remember
word for word, obviously. When I came t' put the words in their mouths I felt very
uncomfortable, because that was based on not being present and not knowing how
people spoke,. So I tried a fairly neutral kind of dialogue. In other words if I'd been
writing a true fiction piece I'd probably would have taken a lot more liberties with the
dialogue in order to give certain kind of cadences and to specify character. Here I felt
I could use it as a way of conveying information and moving the narrative along, but
not to hallucinate what I'd like that character to be like and make them too specific.
Also I didn't want to put the dialogue balloons in my father's broken English, like it was
in his captions, in that in the captions I wanted t' use my father's difficulties with th'
language as a pointer toward his situation in America where English is not his first
language. I didn't want to impose that broken English on the characters in the past
where they were speaking their native tongue and therefore spoke as fluently as one
would in that circumstance.
What did your family and father think of Maus?
My father really wanted to put the War behind him as best he could and start his life
over. Uh at best he couldn't do that all that well, he would wake up with nightmares
almost every night - couldn't sleep well - and had many psychological and physical
ailments that streamed directly from his experiences in concentration camps.
Nevertheless he never really wanted t' talk about it all that much. My father was never
one of the Jews that felt the need t' bear witness the same way that many other
survivors had felt that need.
Uhum O.K. my father by growing up in Poland 19 circa. You know being a child in the
early past of the twentieth century did not have much exposure to comic strips and
never really learned to read them or to understand them. As a result he never had a
very clear idea of what it is I do. Sometimes it would sort of slip his mind that I was
doing anything other than taping, and even that wasn't that clear to him. In chapter six
I relate the experience of reading a bit of the work in progress to him and he
responded. What I'll try to do is getta zerox of that - that's chapter I'm working on now
- so you can take a look at that.
My mother kept like diaries of her experiences and after the War she reconstructed
those diaries and I remember seeing notebooks around the house when I was a kid,
that were written in Polish. I didn't have much interest, bit of course when I wanted to
do this project I tried to find them - they were important. And as it is related in Maus
my father at some point after her suicide destroyed the diaries, something I don't think
I can ever forgive him for.
My stepmother seems to have had a much clearer idea of what it is I'm doing, and
seems to be quite supportive. It was she that translated the document on the history
on Sosnowiec Jews from Polish to English for me, and has tried t' help in what ever
way she could.
The only other member of the family that I'm in touch with is Lulic, who figures in
chapter five of the book - my mother's nephew. I did interview him and his vantage
point on the book is: "Well why dwell on all this stuff?" And, "this is a hopeless project
in that it's fraught with the impossibility of saying anything real or accurate." All of his
responses reflect his background and his orientation as an engineer for concrete
things - someone who doesn't have all that much use for the humanities.
Shortly after the interview was completed Art Spiegelman published Maus in the United
States. Penguin and Deutsch were sold the British and Commonwealth rights, however when
Spiegelman signed the contract he deleted South Africa. In a letter to his London agent, he wrote
that he was unwilling to ‘compromise with fascism’ and wished to uphold the ANC boycott of all
works of art. This stand led him into conflict with the publishers. In correspondence with Tom
Rosenthal, Deutsch's co-director, he explained:
Though I have faith in Maus's message, books are commercial as well as political
artefacts of culture. I feel that I must respect the ANC's request for a total cultural
boycott .since the ANC represents the best hope for change there. I'm in the odd
position of only wanting the book to get into South African bookstores if it is banned by
the Government.
Both Deutsch and Penguin argued that refusing to publish in South Africa amounted to selfcensorship, however Spiegelman maintained his position.
They're talking about business as usual, with criminals, and that's a problem for me. I
just can't allow my book to be sold by distributors and bookstore owners who, one way
or another, have made their peace with the regime.
With the publishers refusing a deal which excluded South Africa it looked like that the British
edition of Maus was doomed. However when Spiegelman approached the ANC in New York for
advice they offered a way out of the deadlock:
To my surprise and pleasure, the ANC do see the significance of Maus and its
relationship to their battle with racist oppression. They are currently arranging for a
movement publisher within South Africa to publish it and make it available there. All
profits would go to the ANC.
This left Deutsch and Penguin with no option. The South Africa was removed from the contract
and Maus was published in Britain in that spring.
Since the interview in 1986 there has been a lot more written on Maus
including (in the English language):
Art Spiegelman's MAUS: A Different Type of Holocaust Literature
Art Spiegelman's MAUS: Working-Through The Trauma of the Holocaust
M A U S at the National Museum of American Jewish History.
MAUS Resources
on the Web
On Spiegelman's Maus I and II (text of a lecture prepared by Ian Johnston)
Theme-Based Inquiry Seminar Art Spiegelman's Maus