13.00-14.45 Day 2 - Digital Dreams - NDIS
SEAN FITZGERALD:
Good afternoon, everyone. Does it look like we have the last of the stragglers coming in now?
Welcome, everybody. Welcome to the Digital Dreams session for this afternoon. The structure of
this one a number of people with disabilities.
We have a fabulous panel of people who will make comments, perhaps even solve problems or even
offer future alternatives to enlighten us all as to what is coming to extend and expand on these
people's digital dreams.
I would like to introduce our panel. To my immediate left is David from Microsoft. Next is Jeremy
Smith from the Australian National University, he focuses on engineering specialties and (inaudible)
style engineering and future thinking.
Next on the line is Phil Jenkins from IBM. Phil comes from the United States and he works in assisted
technology at a senior level of IBM. He was one of the original thinkers around the (unknown term)
standards for web accessibility is in the early days.
And last but not least is Andrew Johnston from Gartner research in the States. Andrew is vice
president with them, and has done research... He is a futurist on the panel.
Without further ado, I am inviting our first digital dreamer up onto the stage. Esther and her
assistant to speak for her. Sorry, Estella Jones. Estella comes from the Northern Territory, Tennant
Creek.
(Applause)
We have a special request from Estella - no photo and video, please.
INTERPRETER:
My name is Sam and I am here to speak on behalf of Estella. We would ask you not to take any
videos or photos that will be shared for cultural reasons.
Estella is unable to communicate by herself because of a disability has made her non-verbal with
most words. It also means she has limited use of her limbs and does not have the dexterity of her
hands to communicate effectively. This is something we are hoping may change after this
conference.
I also believe that she didn't want to get up in front of a large crowd. She is from a remote
community in Tennant internet Creek. Her land stretches through the Barkly region of
approximately...
Our Digital Dream is for technology to be introduced in a (inaudible) robust form, that is easy to use,
operate, available to all and can incorporate all language groups.
Unfortunately, even in today's society, those who cannot communicate effectively are not deemed
to be on the same level of intelligence as those who can communicate clearly.
We want to give people like Estella and people either the opportunity to not be a bystander in life.
But some of the challenges we face are different from living in a city. You would have noticed on my
PowerPoint we have photos from where we live. Have you noticed the awesome red dirt? That dirt
is not kind to electronics. We can get in excess of 40° in the summer. And we get a wet season,
another factor not good for technology.
The extreme weather interferes with electricity, internet and technology. This leaves the other
challenges. Never has internet or power, and most people don't have a phone. Yes, it is true, some
areas are still technology free.
You can imagine our frustration when someone tells us, "Try this app, it is great."
It is hard to find to people but not everyone can use them effectively.
A device needs to be dustproof, waterproof, function from their own power source and not be
reliant on internet data. They need to be user-friendly (inaudible) program and capable of accepting
various languages. We have some language groups excluding English in our area. They also need to
be shatterproof. Is that asking too much? I don't think so, massive technologies developed for armed
forces and mining industries.
There are other challenges. We acknowledge that technological advances have improved our
communication. There are sites and web link (inaudible), which are good if they work. And hello to
the Tennant Creek mob if you are watching.
Nothing is better than face-to-face, and gives us further roadblocks. Where will the expert come
from, how long will they stay? The area so far that the majority don't get to see everyone.
Asking around to travel on how much time is left to the client. Everyone has their own version of
what is right, not necessarily what is the right solution. What is workable for the client?
More times than not, the therapist leaves. Sometimes not replaced for months. They only come in in
certain blocks of time, which means there are timely gaps between being seen. There is a lack of
continuity.
There is often not enough time for the client to get to know their therapist. They don't bother
because then the therapist will leave.
Another issue is that we cannot test equipment, just to gauge if it is actually correct for the client.
That often means that we get equipment that is unsuitable for the client, and as a result, the
equivalent sits on a shelf unused.
Estella requires technology she can access in the classroom, community and at home.
Can you imagine knowing the answer to the question being asked, but not being able to answer
officially? Or being misunderstood. Or even worse, getting someone else communicate for you.
Like most people in education barriers, Estella goes with what is being interpreted for her. It is
heartbreaking to see Estella struggle, or when she needs primary caregivers to answer for her.
It is frustrating and dangerous to her when she cannot express what she is feeling, such as pain, or
more importantly, without pain is. She cannot tell us whether someone is bullying her or she doesn't
like the situation she is in.
We can interpret for her, but what happens if we get it wrong? What happens if she is not with us? I
want to be able to ask Estella Halladay was an ability as a questions. I don't want her to rely on
interpretation. I want her to have the voice.
The right technology would place Estella and others at the same peer level. It can remove some of
the implied non-intelligence that she often experiences. I have lost the amount of times it has been
implied that she cannot read because she cannot articulate. Or let's learn sign language so we can
communicate with her.
Estella has no hearing deficit and understands you to her full nine-year-old ability and beyond.
We understand these technologies take time to be developed and tested, but we believe everyone
needs to have a voice. They deserve to be heard and understood. Please help us to bring this
technology to the remote.
(Applause)
SEAN FITZGERALD:
We are lacking an occupational therapist or an assistive technology expert, but I am one - it's what I
do for a living. I have some questions for you.
You said you used Skype. Have you used it to access therapy services or an assistive (inaudible)?
INTERPRETER:
We have, but a lot of community members don't. The delay is frustrating. When you are trying to do
a speech assessment, there is a delay. Because she knows she is being filmed, sometimes... it's
frustrating.
SEAN FITZGERALD:
Have you got anyone technical out where you are? You are your own assessment panel. I have had
some experience doing technical assessments using Skype as well as WebEx. It can work very well. It
works even better if you have got someone with technical experience or therapy experience at the
other end.
However, I have also done them without that, and it worked quite well. So I suspect that the people
you've got, you have got to educate them and use them to get Estella the equipment she needs.
David, with Skype now owned by Microsoft, how is the technology becoming more accommodating
of dodgy internet - you are Australian, you know what I'm talking about.
DAVID:
I have to be careful, because (inaudible). We are pushing the nodes out further into remote
communities. They are changing the way Skype operates, because it is a peer to peer technology.
Basically, you connect and then it finds a way through the internet to connect you to the other
person, so you get bounced around quite a bit, so particularly when you are coming through satellite
comms in Tennant Creek it is a slow process. You would get a fair amount of lag.
We are trying to do something to improve that experience. If you saw Dan's experience, you would
have seen the (inaudible) interpreter, which gives textual context. It gives more support for those
who are somewhat confronted by video. You can turn the video off and just have a voice
communication, and have that live-transcribed as well.
There are a few options. With the NBN...
INTERPRETER:
The what?
DAVID:
Sorry, the National Broadband Network.
INTERPRETER:(inaudible)
DAVID:
I grew up in a remote part of the state, in Hay, so I understand the challenges of remote
communication. I'm hopeful that things might improve, with satellite communication helping the
connectivity issues. But there are also (inaudible) issues and medication it is.
As you were talking - as you rightly pointed out, the mining industries and others, they have rugged
tablets that are built to be shatterproof, drop-proof. They are very expensive. They are starting to
come down in price, as they become more mainstream.
We have a device built for the NRL - 20 players coming out and holding tablets to look at the plays,
and they are shatterproof. So hopefully that will start to see those costs coming down. As Sean
knows, there are very cheap assistive technologies you can use to improve Estella's ability to
interface.
Is it a camera mouse you use?
SEAN FITZGERALD:
That is a cheap one, but I think, primarily, I think you are looking for a speech generation device. Less
than $100, working on (inaudible).
About $80. And then you have a useful device (inaudible).
The alternative is to be practical, get people up to Darwin to do the training (inaudible) back home
and around the community.
Do you mind passing the microphone along to Andrew from Gartner?
ANDREW:
Actually, I wanted to start off by saying something not futuristic at all, and that is about the issue of
ruggedised devices. If you look at the Panasonic device, sold as a military grade - and I think that
might serve the purpose here.
You can also look at military-grade approved devices. They are significantly more expensive. If you
need something more durable, designed for the sideline of NFL - which is very tough, even
waterproof - you can look around the cases of those.
So just a practical comment.
SEAN FITZGERALD:
Phil, do you have anything to add?
PHIL JENKINS:
I think there is a discussion about getting broadband to the end of the road. There are earlier
technologies called (Unknown term), so I don't know if they are being employed. It is partnering with
the National Broadband Network, the NDIS, and making sure they communicate with each other
(inaudible). Whether it is the middle of Australia or in the middle of Idaho, where my family lives.
SEAN FITZGERALD:
How are we going with those devices these days?
SPEAKER:
Getting better, so it is easier these days to find parts of technology and bring them together to
create customised solutions. Certainly cheap electronics input and control devices - Sean is using a
couple. And they are dropping in price dramatically. You often need expertise to work on the back
end, but you can find people to help with that.
Re: hearing challenges, it is difficult, as you are aware.
There are groups that look at these harsh environments and develop appropriate technology. For
instance, Alice Springs, (inaudible) sanitation. They are developing specific technologies (inaudible).
INTERPRETER:
(Inaudible) if you haven't got time because they are googling everything, (inaudible).
It is the whole, getting it up there to try it. (Inaudible). We are pretty proactive, but there are people
out there who can't be proactive, and they are the ones (inaudible).
SPEAKER:
Even with a simple switch in Windows, you can spell out words.
INTERPRETER:
We used to, but the problem is (inaudible) some of the technologies, but getting other people
trained in them. (inaudible) we are still hitting those barriers in communication, either they are not
trained in them or they are scared of them.
SPEAKER:
These are prickly problems because of relocation. A lot of the barriers you coming up with, you're
not alone.
SPEAKER:
We are downstairs, as well as Apple. Take Estella to both stands. Maybe start exploring a few things
you might be able to play with. You will actually find that some of the settings are not as
complicated as you think, you may just need someone to talk you through it.
SPEAKER:
David from Microsoft is here, Sarah from... The global Apple expert on assistive technology. She is
very knowledgeable.
INTERPRETER:
(inaudible) before we got here (inaudible) technology that could be adapted (inaudible).
SEAN FITZGERALD:
OK, thank you very much.
(Applause)
SEAN FITZGERALD:
And now, Sam Connor. She comes from a farming community in Western Australia. That brings its
own challenges.
SAM CONNOR:
Thanks, guys. No children except for Estella in the room, I will try to keep it PG-13. This is actually
quite mild, considering I have six children and two of them are IT consultants, this is probably the
thing I have heard talk about most, as an idea, and also support workers and people on the front
line.
We think this already exists in other applications that could be converted. I think this is a challenge
for human services. So, imagine this - an app that matches employee up to employer. It is like
eHarmony. We have actually been calling it dHarmony.
Lara is one of 12 young people who support Eamon. He has been an employee in other places are
now working for disabled workers organisation and (inaudible).
So, a massively talented young person. If you look at him as a personal disability, you would say he
needs a lot of support. As a teacher, he is supported mainly by young, funky and vibrant people, and
this is what we see in the sector a lot.
Some people consider workforce qualifications as very important when selecting staff. I don't meet a
lot of adult disability who say that is a consideration for them.
Sometimes when selecting people for a job, it is not so much about their Cert III. Often it is about the
person and who they are. Sean is a tech guy, not a quadriplegic.
If there is a person helping you build plan for a very good life, your plan may not look anything like
you wanted to look like. I am a parent of some children with disabilities.
I have one child who is profoundly average, not average. If you have been in the sector a long time, if
you go to a shopping centre, I remember a young person asking the one-day if disabled people live in
the shopping centre because they see so many disabled people trundling around, because it is free
and air-conditioned.
I don't know anyone who goes bowling every Thursday for 20 years unless you have an intellectual
disability. I expect them to be good bowlers, but half the time they are not. If you don't like bowling,
what else could you do?
If you have an app, thinking about eHarmony, which is a dating app - if you could set up a similar app
for employment that would be good.
If anyone knows about cosplay, there are clubs are people who do this stuff. I'm sure you would
have heard of Comicon.
A lady I know said that her child likes dressing up.
The man dressed up as the marshmallow man, he has already created a bond with enough people.
Nothing fails to scream inclusion of being accompanied by a middle-aged woman in (inaudible). If
you want to get a little bit over PG-13, if you think about a man with cerebral palsy who is a 20-year-
old, with all credit to the beautiful woman in the picture, you see the person that will be assisting
you with masturbation? Possibly not, especially, if you are also gay.
We are talking about real people's lives, not about a perfectly executed bowel movement.
There are some things that people will find important to know that the person they are employing
has checks in place. If we think about our safeguarding system in Australia, we have lots of states
with different safeguards.
There are the skills you (inaudible), things that support people, or people running their own
business, might also be able to identify. They might be able to tie a great knot on a fishing line. They
might be able to put up a tent, a range of other things.
If you imagine the data collected by the app were able to be freely distributed to the mainstream
disability sector - we keep hearing from providers that this is something that we want to be able to
identify what people want.
They only asked the people within the services. If we had some way to collect the data that people
could identify what they need, in order to be who they want to be, and that might be someone to
help them put up a tent.
This is a really bad photo of me, I hope you appreciate it. If you think about what plans might look
like if you had other (inaudible).
Three years ago I was in a jamboree. There were some scout photos of kids going to the snow, etc.
People who supported me in becoming a scout leader are not support workers, they are generally
people who can put up a tent.
The disability sector in the Productivity Commission's report were (inaudible).
Those ideas about a career as a recessional (inaudible) using no spoken language - there is a story
about a couple of autistic guys who were shredding documents for the military at the moment
because they can't read it and communicate it to other people. It has top-secret information. You
are using the skills people have.
Those ideas outside (inaudible) small business owners, people doing rock star things or even just
average things.
We think that if people with disabilities were actually instrumental in doing stuff, it would look
different. Down the bottom is my lovely support worker, Kelly Cox. The NDIA had (inaudible) when I
said the support worker was disabled and also a person from the Land Council who was attending,
but really, all I needed was someone to do the uphills.
Kelly has a wheelchair and she also has a husband who is currently (inaudible), and he hangs off the
back of her wheelchair. So she had all the qualifications that are needed.
We also saw the app might be useful for peer support. People with (inaudible) could be matched
with another person. It might be someone who has been bowling for 20 years and should be good
enough now to take someone bowling, or (inaudible). Thank you very much.
(Applause)
SEAN FITZGERALD:
Thanks, Sam. And I love the way you intertwine life with a technical problem. Because there's not
much point in having a technical solution if (inaudible).
I guess an open question to the panel is, given that what Sam is after is an app that does many things
- basically connects people with like mindedness and a set of capabilities that fits a need - are we
there yet? Can we do this now?
SPEAKER:
I think I saw it last night, actually. (Laughs) Watching Jordan O'Reilly from Hire Up - it would be good
for you to connect with him. I'm sure you already have.
There are some fantastic opportunities out there with creative, young people who are keen to do
something in this space.
If you have got ideas like that, look for forums where you are connecting with young entrepreneurs.
Stimulate them, get them to - there will be these applications.
We run (inaudible) Cup in Microsoft. Most of the winning entries coming out of Australia are either
social entrepreneurs or any health space. They have been fantastic. There was a great company
called Food Bank Local and the application was about connecting people - people had food to
donate and drivers who were working for Through Thanks charities.
It is that connections weren't happening quickly enough and they were unable to get the food out
quick enough, they were just not connected - so their application finds drivers quickly and gets the
food out there. So now, they are a platform of choice.
Fine young people who are connected, stimulating, who have technical skills, and these things can
be done.
SEAN FITZGERALD:
I guess to add to that, I was approached by a man yesterday who saw me speak on behalf of the
NDIA in Melbourne. He very nicely said, "Once I saw you speak and heard what you had to say, I
decided we should be doing apps, my small company should be doing apps (inaudible)". These
people are there.
They see the NDIS as an opportunity to do something (inaudible). It is also a money driver
(inaudible).
Jeremy, did you have something to add?
JEREMY SMITH:
I would agree. There are lots of avenues for getting things done. Most large organisations have
competitions, and universities. If they have a science degree, they have final year projects where you
can often get a team of computer scientists in their final year to work for you for 4-6 months, and
they are always short of projects.
And they are getting better at supporting the students through that. They get better mentoring from
the academics and they often get industry mentoring as well.
There may be a course nearby and you can act as manager of the team. If you're worried about just
setting up a team of 20-year-old boys... (inaudible)
OK, you are more than capable.
SEAN FITZGERALD:
Phil and Andrew (inaudible) a much bigger market in America. There must be things going on like
that.
PHIL JENKINS:
On the one hand, I am the worst person to ask this question because I spent my 24th wedding
anniversary on Monday... I am here, but my wife is back in New York. But thanks to Skype we were
able to celebrate our anniversary, sharing some remote carrot cake - our wedding cake.
I was thinking a combination of the two answers. Go back to eHarmony and build something off
their platform. Or like we saw last night, Clickability.
JEREMY SMITH:
There are new environment out there where you can build things from scratch. (inaudible)
I think Andrew's observations are perhaps better. Think big, but perhaps with an existing platform.
(inaudible).
SEAN FITZGERALD:
A lovely idea, Sam. Thank you very much. And humanly put.
SAM CONNOR:
(Inaudible) so we are going to have coffee and talk about it.
SEAN FITZGERALD:
There you go, Sam.
(Applause)
Next up we have Suzette Gallagher to present her Digital Dreams. Please welcome Suzette.
(Applause)
SUZETTE GALLAGHER:
My disability is that I haven't caught up with the digital age. Many of you will probably tell me that
this is a reality and not a dream.
I am the parent of every successful man who has an intellectual disability. I'm a believer in natural
neighbourhood networks. Hence, my son has received amazing support from his community.
As a personality, he is enrolled in many media and sporting events. I have always felt extreme
embarrassment for him when he had to face assessment by departmental staff, who saw him
through different eyes and saw him through his disability.
This is not the way he saw himself or his life. I have always wished people the disability that they
would not have to go through this process of regular reviews by so many different people.
I have a belief that could be possible to develop what I have called (inaudible), I don't know how we
make that come up on the screen. Never mind, it's not necessary.
There we go.
I have a belief that it could be possible to develop what I call My Passport owned by the person with
a disability, not a paper record. I'm sure the time has come to seek the expertise of those at this
conference to develop this type of record for each person.
We have heard over last few days the emphasis of the (inaudible) image. People requiring services
through the NDIS will have to tell a story many times. Many do not have the developed literacy and
numerous skills.
Carers and other people who look after them have to give up a lot of time to help them achieve their
goals.
Assessment of needs is very important within the NDIS. The role of the assessment is equally as
important.
Even something as simplistic as an arrow! (Laughs)
(Laughter)
(Applause)
SEAN FITZGERALD:
This is not good PR for the industry. (Laughs)
You might be better off with an Apple system.
(Laughter)
SUZETTE GALLAGHER:
(inaudible) I'm sure you have heard that so many times.
I'm sure you have heard many organisations that (inaudible). At the present time, people have to go
from being a client with all these people around them, telling them what their needs are, what kind
of services they require (inaudible) that they need the services.
The client now has to attract a service providers towards them and make them understand what it is
that they want. This becomes very difficult when you cannot read, write or speak.
People with a disability and their families and carers are at the centre of the NDIS. I self-managed or
my son self-manages his funding for the last two years.
I think I am allowed to say that I had to request within his funding package (inaudible) because I
certainly couldn't manage the requirements (inaudible).
They also have to speak to doctors, agencies, Centrelink, and on we go. And now to tell the story
many, many times.
My Passport (inaudible) visual image, developed in a relaxed environment. (inaudible) fight for what
I think he is capable of doing.
We will begin to understand in the next 12-18 months just how important (inaudible), who can find
out from a person with a disability what their needs are.
I believe the passport should be in the hands of the person with a disability so that they choose
access to the information available to him or her.
He should be (inaudible) to people with limited skills. (inaudible) Who are making important
decisions on behalf of the person with a disabilities.
Recognising that people have individual needs and the ownership is with a person with a disability.
My problem is that I don't know what that is. As far as my knowledge goes (inaudible), but I'm sure
we have moved a long, long way from everything.
I just want to point out to you before us for the digital expertise, some of the language being used
today by the service providers. I do understand a couple of the statements that were used. They are
words that do not make too much sense to me, and I'm sure there are a lot of people who it doesn't
make a lot of sense to.
Personalisation agenda, actor groups, (unknown term), nudge theory, sticky relationships - I think
that is about people who don't easily agree, trials of non-tested market thinking. That makes sense
to anyone else? Assessment function. This is a good one - granular detail of customer base. Is that
familiar to anyone in this room?
SPEAKER:
Sadly it is, yes.
SUZETTE GALLAGHER:
Priced at a reasonable market (inaudible). I find that fascinating, too. Understanding of market
thinking and levers that can be used.
(Inaudible) are speaking in a language, I think I need someone to translate. But what I really would
like someone to come up with some simple (inaudible) that people can (inaudible). There is a
computer company in America using the words My Passport.
If they want to go through (inaudible), it can be given to the person with the password. And it can
chat to people just how much they have achieved since the last time (inaudible). Thank you very
much for listening.
(Applause)
SEAN FITZGERALD:
Suzette, I believe you are talking about the basic tenets of the NDIS. For instance, you should only
have to tell your story once. (inaudible)
These are things that the NDIS are deeply thinking about. What I would like to hear from the panel
is, can we do this? And what experience overseas do you have in making sure that it is not only is it
accessible but it is easily understood? So your son can be involved as much as possible.
Can we do this, David?
DAVID:
I feel a bit inadequate in giving technical advice after almost taking your presentation off-line. No,
we can do this. This technology exists in a range of industries already.
In the health space, it is called an 'electronic health record'.
SUZETTE GALLAGHER:
(Inaudible)
DAVID:
Or an electronic medical record, which follows you around. As you go to different positions, they can
access it online and see what medicines you are on, see your previous health interactions. So they
have your history...
SUZETTE GALLAGHER:
(inaudible) my son has (inaudible).
DAVID:
But the technology exists. In terms of accessing that, there are things like facial recognition. It would
be easy for your son to look into a computer, have the computer recognise him and access the
information.
If he had a new carer who came in and he wanted to give her access, he could just go into the
(inaudible) and give her the information.
SUZETTE GALLAGHER:
If I could just interrupt, (inaudible). They are not carers, just people down the street.
DAVID:
I think you are really lucky that you have that network, but I'm saying that there may not be people
in the same situation who have that support available to them who are so readily known to your son
and familiar with his circumstances.
So it has to be designed in a way so it can be utilised by others who are not in that situation. And in
terms of having the information in an easy to understand format, there are absolutely ways to do
that. I know what you are talking about.
SUZETTE GALLAGHER:
But can I find (inaudible)?
SEAN FITZGERALD:
The NDIS will be looking into that for you - in fact, for all of us. We make it a tenet that we get the
web interface portal right for as broad a variety of disabilities as we can. So we will be tapping into
David's organisation's knowledge, talking to IBM and many other providers about how we do that.
SUZETTE GALLAGHER:
(inaudible)
SEAN FITZGERALD:
Well, it takes time to build an interface and we haven't done that yet. Technically, can it be done?
Yes. The NDIA are doing it right now. Are we going to? Yes, we have to.
But to talk more about that...
Yes, please. Rose, who is the IT general manager for the NDIA, she knows better than anyone else in
the room what is going on.
ROSE:
I probably cannot manage it too much more, but I would want to manage expectations. It is
important to collect the important information about people, and have your son agree that that is
the information. With the technology scheme being built by 1 July 2017.
There are a group of people working on, what does it mean in the future? And the thinking and
planning we are doing - and you heard discussions at the conference about how people can engage
with the scheme through avatars, virtual personalities, and interesting ways that people with a wide
variety of disabilities can engage with the scheme.
And the thinking is, it is futuristic, but I'm only talking 2-3 years out. You come into the system and it
says, hello, John. When you came last time, you did this, this and this and you had questions. Did we
deal with you well? It acknowledges where you are and what you need to do going forward.
The thinking is happening, the technology is available, but it is about how to make the technology
work, in a sense, so that it works with people with disabilities appropriately, for their benefit.
And it goes back to the key slide you put up about being client-centric.
SUZETTE GALLAGHER:
He would say that he doesn't need support. (inaudible). He says, unless my life. (inaudible) in the
broadcasting box at Channel 7. He has been involved with Bruce McAvaney for the last 15 years, so
that's an incredible achievement. (inaudible)
He will say, I don't need any support.
ROSE:
That's because he is a wonderful part of a community.
Instead of IT systems looking backwards where it... I went on holidays to understand MyGov. Even
though I am in IT, I was a bit of a Luddite there. It is much more about naturally working with IT.
It is not there yet, but that is what we are doing in the future years. Thank you.
(Applause)
SEAN FITZGERALD:
Thank you, Rose.
Suzette, have we gone a long way to answering your question and giving you some insight about
what we have done now, and in the near future, and perhaps further off?
SUZETTE GALLAGHER:
I do hope so. (inaudible) out there and the information doesn't seem to be getting through. I can
understand that, but there are a lot of (inaudible). Mostly people say, how are they going to
recognise in the assessment that this is what my son or daughter needs?
And I don't think they can, unless there is some way (inaudible) with all the technology around,
people can see what support is really needed. (inaudible) and they say, that's not right, I don't need
any support.
SPEAKER:
A quick one - I don't know if you saw the presentation I was in yesterday, Plumtree?
SUZETTE GALLAGHER:
Yes, I have got information about it, yes.
SPEAKER:
Great.
SEAN FITZGERALD:
(inaudible) is a long-standing occupational therapist from Queensland.
SPEAKER:
(Inaudible)
SUZETTE GALLAGHER:
What good news. Thank you.
(Applause)
SEAN FITZGERALD:
Next up is Cynthia Sasongko. I do hope I have pronounced that correctly.
CYNTHIA SASONGKO:
It's really good to be here. A shout out to NDIS. Thank you for installing the ramp. I was worried I
would trip over the stairs!
Firstly I want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land where we are meeting today and
pay my respects to the Elders past and present.
I want to start by sharing a story about a young couple who recently moved to a new city for a job.
Like many young Australians, they are in the market for a place to rent so they can live together. For
those of us who have had any experience in the private rental market, will notice how competitive it
is. How something can be hard challenge for people, especially the young people who have just
moved out of home.
This couple is looking for a rental flat to start their married life. What I didn't tell you is that the girl
was born without a leg and wears a prosthetic limb. An important thing to this couple to consider is
accessibility.
This young couple is my fiance and I. We are getting married in three months and we started house
hunting in May, right after we got engaged. The biggest issue so far is accessibility. I have now
experienced first-hand the need for accessible housing. There is a gap in the market for it.
What can we do to address that? My dream is to engage with community organisations are property
developers and others to raise awareness and inspire people to think differently about the benefits
of accessible housing.
My biggest Digital Dream is to have a universally designed suburb, because, why not? A suburb in
Canberra will open this year and will be completely powered by solar.
I think the next big thing the Australian property market is to build (inaudible).
How is this relevant to the NDIS? In March last year, the chairman of the NDIS said this about the
potential housing demand for NDA as participants at the (inaudible) conference in Canberra.
He said that around 410,000 people who become NDA is a dissident. (inaudible) 83,000 and 122,000
and as participants.
So, NDIS is not efficient enough on its own to meet housing needs of its participants. But it should be
a catalyst for government and housing sector.
What he is saying that the NDIS alone cannot fix the housing sector. We need to partner with other
organisations to fix this problem.
What would the solution look like for this problem? Susan Ryan, the Age and Disability
Discrimination Commissioner said: "I don't know if I have come across any ideas as big as this
(inaudible) universal design. In that time have been the Commissioner, I cannot think of an idea that
could make as big an impact as this one."
Finally she said (inaudible).
So, what is universal design? Housing they can be used by everyone to the greatest extent possible,
without the need for adaptation or specialised design. Finally the universal design is like the
philosophy that spans age, gender and ability.
It sounds like a great thing, right?
Has the housing industry and the government really embrace as principal? Not really. What you see
here is the ten-year plan from the government, like a national policy, framework thing, to improve
life for people with a disability and their families.
The first one is creating inclusive and accessible communities. Removing any barriers that restrict the
participation of people with disabilities is to incorporate universal design into the design and build of
community (inaudible), including housing.
In 2010, they develop this lovable housing design initiative. It has three levels, Platinum level,
providing full accessibility.
Buyers' demand, at least silver level. Until the government can sort this out, but go back to my house
hunting situation.
As I mentioned, and getting married in three months. Back in May, when we got engaged, I thought
it would take me a month to find a place. No, I was so wrong. Here is the first problem - it's so hard
to find an accessible house in Australia.
So, I use an app on my phone, allhomes.com.au, put in my budget, how many bedrooms I am looking
for. It gives me a list of possible options. I will then have to scroll through every single photo to find a
bathroom photo. There are a lot of houses in Canberra, and I am sure, in other parts of Australia,
that have this really stupid design.
So, when I am in the bathroom, I don't wear my leg, so I am on crutches. It is a nightmare. What I am
looking for in a house is an accessible bathroom, that is the most important thing.
I do this for hundreds and hundreds of properties. I sit on my bed and spent three or four hours
every night on my phone, looking for a home.
Here is my first big idea. To make my life easier, real estate websites could add a search filter and
put something like 'universal design' or 'accessible house'. And all the information is there in the text
of the app. That would be really helpful.
When this happens, I can quickly narrow down my search and be able to quickly find what I am
looking for. It also means I would be less glued to my phone for hours.
Here is a second problem - there are not enough accessible homes in the private rental market. I
know what you're thinking, why would property developers want to go through the hassle just to
build accessible housing?
A lot of people think, it's going to look ugly, why should I spend more money? (Inaudible) says that it
is up to 30 times more expensive to fix a house later on, compared to building it that way early on.
These are some examples of universal design bathrooms and I think they look fabulous. I only have
30 seconds.
There are people from Lend Lease saying that things like universal design and accessibility are the
next big thing.
Here is another big idea. Yesterday people were talking about...
Yesterday, they were talking about Google lenses. My thought was, if you really want to promote
something for homebuyers, you have to engage them when they are doing inspections and going to
display homes. Give them the glasses, they can walk around the house and see how it is designed,
for this and this.
You can walk through the house and learn the purpose behind the design. They will see text and
things see this popping up on the glass, so that you can see the benefits behind the design.
I was talking to Miller a few days ago about this idea. He is an Apple geek and he told me about
Home Kit, introduced by Apple. It allows wireless control of your home, like opening a bathroom
door remotely. So it would be like this, creating something fabulous.
The main thing to take from this presentation, I hope, is to think about universal homes, accessible
living. It is cheaper and more affordable to build accessibility into your home rather than retrofitting.
And people move through life, settling down, having a baby, acquiring an (inaudible)or disability, I
think it is critical that a home matches your needs.
For people moving into retirement - literally everyone of us one day - think about it, he will no longer
have a steady income from your employment or other assets. It means you will have a reduced or
potential loss of income. Would you really want to spend more money to renovate your bathroom
so you can continue to shower?
Do you really want to renovate your kitchen to lower cupboards? Do you really want to renovate
your floors because you can't afford to slip again? Or would you want to spend thousands of dollars
installing a rap because you now have a walking frame?
I hope that one day I can walk into a display home in Australia, in our first universally designed
suburb, when every home is not only just environmentally friendly and modern, but every home is
accessible. I want to see a display to learn the purpose of design throughout the house.
And I want people to rave about the 3-D interaction thing with friends and family. We need to get
the discussion going in the mainstream space, not just disability. Separating the two will further
alienate people in society.
I would like technology and apps to make it easier for people with a disability to find accessible
housing and navigate the property market. I want People with a Disability to feel empowered and to
be able to choose where, how and with whom they wish to live.
This is my dream for the future. Thank you.
(Applause)
SEAN FITZGERALD:
Well done. Great topic. So important.
I know that we can do this. A couple of years ago, Ability Technology and High Apartment to create
the Ability House website, which does many of the things you are talking about but it only focuses
on assistive technology. As you pass through the house, you get pop-up icons to tell you about the
features of accessibility.
We know what the issues are in Australia, but I think we have an opportunity to ask a couple of guys
from America with international experience, what their views are and perhaps about other solutions
that maybe we haven't thought about here in Australia that are happening elsewhere.
Phil, can I start with you?
PHIL JENKINS:
There was a movement out there called Visitability, so I think you want to partner with some of
these other (inaudible).
In Boston, where I live, there are now requirements on homebuilders to build more homes that are
Visitable, accessible in their design - it is the same concept. Certain door widths, etc.
So you want to jump on the bandwagon with that.
Andrew mentioned house.com.au. When you partner with international groups, try to get that filter
added (inaudible).
The other thing to do is to look at the senior market. Engaging (inaudible) is expanding
phenomenally so that should attract the builders and government agencies to put more standard
and incentives in place and appeal to that market, like yourself. The partnering and collaborating
should help in taking that business case, if you will, to the internet search providers.
I did a lot of touring in my job on the Access (inaudible), where we saw this happening in military
housing. We have lawyers coming back with different engagements. We wanted the zero entry,
wider bathrooms, (inaudible).
The military has put in the effort into their building programs. I think the government agencies
putting incentive (inaudible), not just for people with a disability, but also the ageing.
SEAN FITZGERALD:
So it sounds like there is a lot going on in this space. I know that universal design is a hot topic
among architects, so I think we are on our way. There are some excellent international examples to
draw on and I'm sure Phil could give you some good websites to research.
A great topic and presentation. Thank you very much.
(Applause)
SEAN FITZGERALD:
Last up, can I call Carl Thompson to the stage.
Hello, Carl. How are you?
CARL THOMPSON:
Good, thank you. Can everyone hear me OK?
SEAN FITZGERALD:
Have you got a presentation?
CARL THOMPSON:
I actually don't. I feel technologically inferior, although I...
SEAN FITZGERALD:
As a marketing guy, I'm sure you can talk the leg off a chair.
CARL THOMPSON:
I'm a bit disappointed that no one has made in Martin Luther King joke about having a dream yet.
I don't have a massive, confirmed one thing that I want, but I have some observations that I have
found annoying and peculiar in my engagement with technology.
One has been - I will start talking about my favourite example. The automatic door at your local
Coles. In this room, people are probably thinking about an automatic door as being assistive
technology, something that lets people in a wheelchair in and out.
But really it's about getting people in and out of a shop when they have their shopping in a trolley,
kid in a pram. It is just to get people into and out of the shop more quickly. It is there just to make
money. Even the elevator - it's great for me, otherwise I wouldn't be here - but it was probably
developed, at least not initially, but it is very important for high-rise living.
Without it, house prices would be even higher than they are, because people don't want to walk to
the 60th floor for their hotel room.
So these are two things I can think of that are assistive technology, but they weren't built for that
purpose.
You tell people that they are assistive technology, but it takes a while to think that is what they are
because they are so common and so useful for everyone.
My phone, my old phone had speakers on the front of the phone rather than the bottom or the back
of the phone. It is always advertised on television, on the internet, to be a tool to get more volume
and pretty much annoy people on public transport by playing some gangster rap or something like
that, and being really obtrusive.
To me, when I'm driving my chair out in the city, if I don't have loudspeakers on my phone and I
forgot my earpiece, I can't hear the person on the other end of the line. It is not built for me, but it
works for me.
I'm thinking one of the things that I would like to see more of is these assistive technologies to be
advertised or, I suppose, suggested to people with disabilities as something that they can use.
It is not something which is just for them, it is for everyone. It is also not quite universally designed.
Universal design means that everyone knows about it - a lot of people don't know about these
things.
Like lightbulbs. The lightbulbs in my house in my room I can control with my phone. Years ago, this
technology would have cost thousands of dollars. I would have had some horrible disability button
that matches nothing in my house.
I don't just turn them on and off, there are many other settings I can use like the strobe effect.
Luckily no-one has had epilepsy yet, which is good.
These things were developed because people couldn't be bothered to get off the couch to turn the
light off. And it is this laziness which benefits me and will benefit, in a real, tangible way, and this is
something I like to see more of.
Another example is the remote control. My parents were say that they used to have to get off the
couch to change the volume will change the channel on the television. And people should do more
of that now. Maybe that would lower rates of obesity.
To me, I can't turn on the television without using my phone or a remote control. A remote control is
not seen as assistive technology, and this is where I find it hard because I come to sessions... Not
conferences like this or technology days, and they always talking about new products and potential
start-ups and things, which are very expensive or niche and unique.
People don't know that there is lots of stuff out there that can really make a difference already. I
guess my dream is to work out how we can make people aware of what is out there, and make
people selling it realised the value of selling it from a perspective of people with disabilities.
I'm not someone who likes the whole othering, making things were people just with disabilities. I
think we have gone the other way and the benefits for people with disabilities are not really
advertised.
My lightbulbs are $50 each, but it means I can turn them on and off. Anyone with disability
equipment experience knows that cost a lot more than that.
Even voice recognition - I can type, but I'm quite slow. It is busy businessmen and women who don't
have time to talk to their children or their partners, they are so busy and running around, doing
notetaking, but to me, it is a very useful tool, but is very rarely sold marketed as assistive
technology.
I suppose, that is where I am interested in hearing what you think about that. I'm going to end a bit
early, if that's OK.
SEAN FITZGERALD:
Carl, you have raised some very important issues. Both hardware and software issues. My question
is, has always been around, when will that 'disability' technology make its way into the mainstream?
I think the person on the panel to start on this one because we were having great discussions earlier,
Andrew, would you mind starting this one? We have been talking about this over the last few days.
ANDREW JOHNSON:
There is a tremendous tailwind for the adoption of this technology. The challenge is, I will push back
on this, I think you want this as solutions for people with a disability in the home. I think these are
just good features to have. But it is not.
AT&T did a lot of great studies... Home security, there was a lot of money on the table. Then, they
have added on these convenience factors. They were looking at wholesaling that solution out of the
United States with partners around the world.
I think this will ramp up some solutions, but it is all about universal access and control.
CARL THOMPSON:
(inaudible) solutions in their one, narrow field. I think we will need to swing a little bit the other
way.
ANDREW JOHNSON:
(inaudible) a little bit further out, probably two or three years.
SPEAKER:
I think there is a challenge to... You are in marketing, right? How do you take this information and
spin it to the disability market? It is not about, you are not challenged with the features, they are out
there, they just have to be marketed better.
We need this information pointed at the right audience and use the right terms.
CARL THOMPSON:
A very sure what you say, but it is not my job to market someone else's product.
SPEAKER:
You're going to get a commission. (Laughs),
CARL THOMPSON:
If we are talking about people with disabilities partnering with that, I am all for that. But that should
not be an obligation on me to do all the research on that.
SPEAKER:
I am encouraging you to take this presentation back to the companies.
You suggest how it can be spun, and then you say, "I need to put food on the table..."
SEAN FITZGERALD:
(inaudible) Microsoft's disability-friendly features that they never talk about. We have seen Apple
have introduced this (inaudible) generation iOS now, and it is everything that (inaudible) disabilityfriendly as well.
One comment coming from the audience.
COMMENT FROM FLOOR:
We at (Unknown term), one of the (inaudible). So we are trying to get carers and people (inaudible).
SPEAKER:
To make that point, I think social media is an amazing platform to get information out there. You see
some of the emerging platforms like Clickability - amazing opportunities for people to share their
experiences with technology that maybe has not been designed but is being used in those scenarios.
So using those platforms and other bulletins boards to get information out about technology. A lot
of it is grassroots, to pick up on Phil's point.
SEAN FITZGERALD:
Hi. How are you?
COMMENT FROM FLOOR:
(Inaudible)
SEAN FITZGERALD:
Yes, I saw that. And have you got that accessible via Webcam? Have you got the Smart Home
accessible by web cam so people can see?
COMMENT FROM FLOOR:
(inaudible)
SEAN FITZGERALD:
It seems that things aren't exactly the way you want them to be, but they are there to a large extent.
Please, make use of your marketing skills. Earn yourself some money, as Phil suggested - the
entrepreneur from IBM.
CARL THOMPSON:
It is not me asking for things. It is about making people who don't have that luxury...
SEAN FITZGERALD:
As David said, it such an important thing that People with a Disability need to do, and that's what we
are looking at with the NDIA, the (inaudible) marketplace that David Bowen keeps talking about, and
the potential to have comments from people with a disability to say what works for them.
Does that help answer your question?
CARL THOMPSON:
It does. Thank you.
SEAN FITZGERALD:
Thank you very much.
(Applause)
SEAN FITZGERALD:
And thank you very much to Carl. Kate Ross is our last participant.
KATE ROSS:
Thank you. I'm Kate and I work for Centrelink, but I'm actually talking as an individual today. I'm not
talking on behalf of them.
I'm actually glad to be at this conference and giving this talk, because it enables me to actually learn
the way someone talks in Auslan, the way that they...stutter in Auslan.
(Laughter)
KATE ROSS:
I was at work, and the work I do is that I work as a Centrelink social worker. An old man came into
our office and he asked to speak with us. He was visually impaired and he was completely deaf.
When I called out to him, I didn't think about the fact that he couldn't hear me and he couldn't see
me. So, as you can imagine, when I was in the interview room with him, he couldn't see what I was
doing and he couldn't hear what I was saying, which meant that he couldn't hear that I stutter. So
that was good for me, but not good for him. Because he didn't know that I was not speaking that
well.
So today I wanted to talk about what stuttering is, and the impact it has on everyone that does
stutter. And I want to be able to share the ability to stutter with you guys, because I think it's about
time that I don't only stutter. I think it's about time everyone else learnt to stutter.
So I've actually come up with an instrument that will allow you to do that. But before we go on, I will
talk a bit about the story of the understanding of why we do stutter.
Obviously, up on the screen you can see that the way stuttering is defined, it's obviously the way
that a person (inaudible) - this is really entertaining.
(Laughter)
KATE ROSS:
Yeah, it's about the way you say a word - and sometimes sign the word. So up on the board you can
see some examples of the way that you stutter, or the way we define ourselves as stuttering.
As I said earlier, there is only a select population of people that do stutter, and I consider them to be
an elite group.
Some of them you may be already aware of, like Winston Churchill, Ed Sheeran, Marilyn Monroe.
That was a bit short for the M.
Better. Thanks.
(Laughter)
KATE ROSS:
So, as you can see, some of the people up on that board are people that are really popular in the
world and have contributed to society, which means that people with stutters are able to contribute
to society, with some assistance.
There are things we do easier than people who don't stutter. We can sing a lot better than we talk.
So, I apologise that I didn't sing this talk today for you.
Another thing that we do is that we can't say our names. Even if I changed it, I would still stutter on
my name. I don't quite understand why and science doesn't either.
These are some of the old-age beliefs of why people stutter. Sometimes it was thought that if we got
tickled too much, we would stutter. Now, that's not really good.
Or if you mum cut your hair before you were able to talk, I could understand that, that would be
good.
Other beliefs were that we ate insects, particularly grasshoppers. So, we have changed our diet a bit
now.
There are some beliefs about how to stop a stutter - you apply ointment on your neck, or you do
your prayers, or you drink out of a bowl that a bird has been drinking out of.
I have been told I do not have much time here because of my stutter, but it's OK.
People often believe that stuttering is caused by anxiety, or that there is an intellectual impairment,
but that isn't the story.
So, when we actually are looking at our... When we look at our work, our participation in the
workforce, we can see that people who do stutter will often be employed in positions under their
ability because of the way that we get anxious at interviews and whatnot.
There are over 140,000 people in our country that stutter. Now, if you are going to be working with
someone as a work colleague with a stutter, just think about what that's like each day for them.
So, on to how to get people to engage with us a bit easier, is to enable people to stutter. I have
designed an instrument that will allow you to stutter.
It is aimed to be an educational tool in which you can learn to stutter for an hour or a day. I think the
aim of that, of course, is to bring out public awareness of stuttering, and also to involve us a bit more
in the world. So, that's what my device is.
(inaudible) Relate Mate to encourage us to connect more with the people, which is what this
conference is about.
Thank you.
(Applause)
SEAN FITZGERALD:
Thanks so much, Kate. Well done. It brings up an interesting issue. And to my mind, we should be
making a device that makes us all stutter, to even out the playing field. Let's quickly talk to Andrew
and fill about the potential for devices to translate audio to eliminate the stutter from speech.
SPEAKER:
It's an amazing idea. It can be built as an app on a smart phone. You need a gaming element, I think
that will make it fun and engaging. So, it's a good empathy building tool. When it comes to the
technology to eliminate the stutter, I have less advice in that area, other than to switch the mode of
communication in a text to voice communication.
In a presentation I did yesterday, there was a company called Motion Savvy that has a product called
(inaudible) that does American sign language to text. It seems to be a good product in a company
interested in the space. They already have a product out.
They might be very interested in adopting that kind of platform and having some gamification.
SPEAKER:
I think this is a hard one. Most of the research has been in alternatives to stuttering. For example,
when you say, my voice is my password, (inaudible) alternative bio recognition or bio modification,
so if you can't use your voice as a password, you can use a thumb scanner.
But because stuttering is so random, I don't think that would work.
We have sticky keys and bounce keys now, and technology that will adjust that as you increase your
fatigue. So, if you use your computer longer during the day, you are starting to hit the keys more
randomly or holding down the key to long. That is there, I'm wondering if there are any other ideas
out there.
SEAN FITZGERALD:
I was thinking of technology, Phil, that would recognise the word that was being stuttered, delay,
compress the stuttered part of that word into something that could be reasonably understood and
then speak that word out for the individual.
SPEAKER:
I wanted to make the point that there are a growing number of games that put you into the
character of a person with a disability. We had a group of university students design and application
in virtual reality that gave you a perception of a person with a learning difficulty, and also dementia
as well, I think.
So there is a movement of games and apps that put you in the position to empathise with someone
in those situations. So I think that kind of thing is quite doable. Picking up on Andrew's point, some
gamification of that would make it fun and interesting.
SEAN FITZGERALD:
Jeremy, as an engineer, do you think it is possible?
JEREMY SMITH:
I think it is getting into the hard basket, not the too hard one. There is a lot of research in speech
recognition, which comes in with a signal processing in the background. You would probably have to
have a lot of adapting to individuals for that, for an individual who might have a stutter, where you
have to learn and tuned to that individual more.
But having something like that to feed into design themes would help a lot.
KATE ROSS:
(Inaudible) is that we might be able to enable people to stutter (inaudible).
SEAN FITZGERALD:
And that's a great way to end the session. And to end the panel discussion overall. I think we have
some fantastic ideas and great responses from the panel.
So I would like you to join me in thanking the panel and our contributors.
(Applause)
SEAN FITZGERALD:
There are some tokens of our appreciation being handed out to the panellists and participants.
Everybody gets a T-shirt.
(Laughter)