09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 1
THURSDAY, 9 SEPTEMBER 2004
____
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
____
The House met at 14:00.
The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a
moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.
NOTICES OF MOTION
Dr C P MULDER: Dankie, agb Adjunkspeaker. Ek gee hiermee kennis dat
ek by die volgende sitting van die Huis sal voorstel:
Dat die Huis-
(1) ‘n bespreking voer oor –
(a)
die beplande afdanking van 7 600 werkers by Telkom
ondanks Telkom se wins van R4,5 miljoen; en
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
(b)
PAGE: 2
die aanbevelings en verslag van die drie vakbonde by
Telkom om hierdie saak te beredder; en
(2)
‘n standpunt inneem ten opsigte van wat die Regering as
grootste aandeelhouer in Telkom behoort te doen om hierdie
afdankings te voorkom.
(Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)
[Dr C P MULDER: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker. I hereby give notice
that at the next sitting of the House I shall move:
That the House-
(1)
discusses the –
(a)
planned retrenchment of 7 600 workers at Telkom in spite
of Telkom’s profit of R4,5 million; and
(b)
recommendations and report of the three trade unions at
Telkom to address this matter; and
(2)
takes
a
stand
in
regard
to
what
the
Government
as
the
majority shareholder in Telkom should do to prevent these
retrenchments.]
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 3
Adv Z L MADASA: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. I hereby give notice that
at the next sitting of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates whether the state-owned enterprises are
truly contributing to economic growth and job creation in the
country.
Thank you.
NATURAL DISASTERS IN KWAZULU-NATAL
(Draft Resolution)
Ms S RAJBALLY: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I hereby move
without notice:
That the House –
(1) notes that -
(a)
lately snow and rain in KwaZulu-Natal have caused many
road accidents in the area;
(b)
one such accident has caused the death of Montclair
police commissioner Superintendent Danny Kuppasamy when a
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 4
driver lost control of her vehicle and it collided into
his; and
(c)
Kuppasamy was an admirable policeman who dedicated his
life to the service of the community and that he will be
greatly missed; and
(2)
extends its deepest regret and condolences to the bereaved
family and friends of the victim; and
(3) calls on -
(a)
all motorists in the area to drive with caution; and
(b)
the road services to make roads less slippery.
Agreed to.
CANDIDATURE OF MR MOOSA FOR IUCN CHAIRPERSON
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Camagu Sekela-Somlomo.
[Greetings Madam Speaker.] I move without notice:
That the House –
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
(1)
PAGE: 5
notes the candidature of Mr Mohammed Valli Moosa, the former
Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism, for the
position of IUCN President at the third World Conservation
Congress of the International Conservation Union, (IUCN), to
be held in November 2004 in Bangkok, Thailand;
(2)
believes that Mr Moosa has a high standing in the
international conservation community and the ability to
ensure that the diverse interests of the IUCN’s members and
those of its Commissions are accommodated within the IUCN’s
complex setting;
(3)
furthermore believes that he could play a key role in taking
forward the concerns and interests of African countries;
(4)
also notes that-
(a) natural resource management and conservation, as
advocated and practised by the IUCN South Africa in
particular, has become an important mechanism for
addressing poverty;
(b) the South African government and IUCN are pioneers in
their methodology of community involvement in nature
conservation, integrated rural development, livelihoods,
natural resource management and particularly issues of
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 6
land restitution, protected areas and marginalised
communities; and
(c) conservation in South Africa speaks of a holistic
approach that sees the role of the human being and his
need for development within the context of environmental
sustainability – in this regard South Africa has played
an important role at a global level, hosting both the
World Summit on Sustainable Development and the World
Parks Congress in 2002 and 2003, respectively; and
(5)
affirms its support for the candidature of Mr Mohammed Valli
Moosa for the position of IUCN President. [Applause.]
Agreed to.
MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS
TOURISM MONTH
(Member’s Statement)
Mr J D ARENDSE (ANC): Deputy Speaker, the ANC welcomes the
celebration of Tourism Month in September, a joint venture between
government and the tourism industry. It was launched in 1997 in
recognition of World Tourism Day, held annually on 7 September, with
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 7
a primary focus on placing tourism high on the national agenda. This
year, as we celebrate a decade of our democracy, the Tourism Month’s
celebrations come at a time when the people’s contract to create
work and fight poverty is the main pillar of both this government
and the country’s focus. Tourism has been, and still continues to
be, a major creator of job opportunities.
The ANC supports the objectives of this Tourism Month, which are:
firstly, to encourage South Africans to travel within the country in
support of the recently launched ”Sho’t Left campaign”; secondly, to
make them aware of tourism opportunities available in the country
and; thirdly, to make tourism products accessible to all South
Africans and encourage all South Africans to create a safe and
welcoming environment for visitors.
We call on all our people to support this Tourism Month and all
major events that go with it. I thank you. [Applause.]
KANNALAND MUNICIPALITY
(Member’s Statement)
Mnr W P DOMAN (DA): Agb Adjunkspeaker, dit is nie goed genoeg vir
die ANC-premier van die Wes-Kaap om bloot te erken dat die manewales
van die ANC-burgemeester en ANC-raad van Kannaland Munisipaliteit
vir die ANC ’n verleentheid is nie, maar om dan in dieselfde asem
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 8
die ANC se belange bo die belange van die belastingbetalers te
plaas, deur te sê dat daar geen sprake is dat die ANC self teen
burgemeester Donson gaan optree nie.
Premier Rasool se verweer dat ondersoeke daarop dui dat Donson
onreëlmatig opgetree het, maar niks onwettig gedoen het nie, is
lagwekkend, en dui daarop dat die ANC sy hande in onskuld was terwyl
’n munisipaliteit in die grond in bestuur word.
Dit is tragies dat 28 amptenare van die munisipaliteit nou
afdankingsbriewe ontvang het as gevolg van die finansiële wanbestuur
by dié munisipaliteit waar bevind is dat langtermynskuld nooit self
vereffen sal kan word nie. Voor die verkiesing het die ANC vir
Donson tydelik geskors om stemme te kry. Nou het die ANC weer ’n
besoek deur die provinsiale portefeuljekomitee gekanselleer om die
ANC verleentheid te spaar in die oorlooptydperk.
Die DA het voortgegaan met die besoek. Hulle is getref deur die
armoede wat daar heers en die vrees onder gemeenskapsorganisasies
vir hulle uitvoerende komiteelede se veiligheid. Die DA weet dat mnr
Rasool se leierskap in die Wes-Kaap op wankelrige bene rus, maar dit
is tyd dat hy optree – selfs teen die lede wat van sy eie faksie is.
[Tussenwerpsels.] [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans Member’s
Statement follows.)
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 9
[Mr W P DOMAN (DA): Hon Deputy Speaker, it not good enough for the
ANC Premier of the Western Cape simply to admit that the antics of
the ANC mayor and the ANC Council of the Kannaland Municipality are
an embarrassment to the ANC, whilst in the same breath placing the
interests of the ANC above those of the taxpayer by saying that
there is no way that the ANC itself would act against Mayor Donson.
Premier Rasool’s defence that investigations indicate that Donson
acted irregularly but not illegally is ludicrous and suggests that
the ANC is washing its hands in innocence whilst a municipality is
being run into the ground.
It is tragic that 28 municipal officials have now received notices
of dismissal as a result of the financial maladministration at this
municipality where it was found that it is in no position to settle
its long-term debt by itself. Before the elections, the ANC
temporarily suspended Donson in order to win votes. Now the ANC has
once again cancelled a visit by the provincial portfolio committee
to spare them embarrassment during the floor-crossing period.
The DA proceeded with the visit.
It was struck by the level of
poverty that exists in the area and the fear of community
organisations for the safety of their executive committee members.
The DA is aware that the leadership of Mr Rasool in the Western Cape
is on shaky ground, but it is time that he acted – even against the
members of his own faction.[Interjections.][Applause.]]
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 10
FAKE MARRIAGES
(Member’s Statement)
Mr T E VEZI (IFP): Madam Deputy Speaker, priests hold a very high
moral standing within society and are looked upon for moral guidance
and leadership. It is therefore with great shock that we have learnt
that the SA Police Service has arrested a Johannesburg priest, who
was also a registered marriage officer, for allegedly conducting at
least 600 fake marriages between foreigners seeking South African
nationality, and unsuspecting local women.
According to the SAPS he is believed to be part of a syndicate
operating nationwide. We congratulate the police on the arrest and
hope that they succeed in their ongoing investigations into these
syndicates that are involved in the marriage scams. It is obvious
that the sanctity of marriage does not mean much to this morally
challenged priest, and we hope that he has not done any lasting
damage to the reputation of the many priests who are still looked
upon for guidance and still believe in the sanctity of marriage. I
thank you. [Applause.]
IRREGULAR PAYMENT OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT GRANTS IN KWAZULU-NATAL
(Member’s Statement)
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 11
Mnu D M GUMEDE (ANC): Sihlalo, ngizokhuluma ngesimo sokukhwabanisa
kwezenhlalakahle KwaZulu-Natali. UKhongolose uyasihalalisela
isinqumo esithathwe uhulumeni wesifundazwe saKwaZulu-Natal
sokugunyaza uhlelo lokuvumbulula imikhonyovu emnyangweni
wezenhlalakahle kulesi sifundazwe.
Lolu phenyo luzobheka indlela iziphathimandla ezagunyaza ngayo
isondlo nezenhlalakahle okubonakalayo ukuthi yayingekho emthethweni.
Kwelinye lamahhovisi esifundazwe eliseMzinto kutholakale ukuthi
ezimalini zesondlo ezingama-97, ezingama-90 kuzo zaphuma
ngomkhonyovu. Ziyisikhombisa kuphela ezitholakale ngendlela
esemthethweni. Kutholakele futhi ukuthi kwabangama-37 ababheka
abantwana, abangama-35 kubo bathola isondlo ngendlela engafanele.
Uphenyo olwenziwa ngabakwa-KPMG njengamanje lukhomba ukuthi abayi-11
kwabayi-14 bezikhulu bayathinteka kulo mkhonyovu. [Kwaphela
isikhathi.] Ngiyabonga. (Translation of Zulu Member’s Statement
follows.)
[Mr D M GUMEDE (ANC): Chairperson, I will talk about fraud in the
social development grants in KwaZulu-Natal. The ANC applauds the
decision taken by the provincial government in KwaZulu-Natal to
authorise the unearthing of fraud in the department of social
development in this province.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 12
This investigation will look at the way in which the officials
authorised the grants in the department which manifestly did not
deserve approval. In one of the provincial offices in Mzinto it was
found that out of 97 grants, 90 were fraudulent. It was also found
that out of 37 foster care grants, 35 of those should not have been
approved.
The investigation done by KPMG as of now shows that 11 out of 14
officials are involved in this fraud in one way or another. Thank
you. [Time expired.]
TAIWAN STILL EXCLUDED FROM THE UN
(Member’s Statement)
Mr Y WANG (ID): Madam Chair, the ID knows that while the United
Nations welcomed East Timor and Switzerland as its newest members
two years ago, Taiwan’s 23 million people have remained
unrepresented for over 30 years. Despite all the UN’s achievements
in peacekeeping and conflict resolution the world over, the complete
exclusion of Taiwan from the UN still poses a moral and legal
challenge to the international community.
So, following a long period of international isolation, the
international community has again embraced South Africa after its
successful democratic transition. Like South Africa, Taiwan has also
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 13
recently undergone a democratic change of government and similarly
places an equally high value on human rights. While South Africa is
now a very active member of the international community, Taiwan is
still excluded from this important international body, the United
Nations. It is time to allow the voice of the 23 million people who
are living in Taiwan to be heard.
We, therefore, on behalf of the Taiwanese community in South Africa,
call on all the people and the government of South Africa to support
Taiwan’s bid to the UN with action, so that Taiwan may work hand in
hand with South Africa and make a contribution to the rest of the
world. Thank you.
MIDDLE EAST PEACE PROCESS
(Member’s Statement)
Mr K D S DURR (ACDP): Madam Chair, the ACDP welcomes the discussion
between President Mbeki and others and senior Israeli politicians
from the Likud Party in a bid to make a contribution to the Middle
East peace process, using our experience in South Africa. The House
respects the wisdom and humility shown by our President when
reflecting upon the deliberations.
For South Africans to have any influence in the Middle East we will
need to build credibility and earn the trust of all the parties
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 14
concerned in the peace process, particularly that of the Israeli
government, the Palestinian civil authority and other political
parties in the region.
It is vital also that we inculcate greater trust and foster
increasing goodwill between the competing parties. This we can
achieve by acting impartially and by guarding against being
judgemental when incidents of lawlessness or retaliation occur. In
the meantime South Africa should continue building financial trade
and cultural relationships with the parties concerned, and be
prepared for the long haul. We wish our President well in this
important initiative. I thank you.
MASSIVE NEW NASA INSTALLATION
(Member’s Statement)
Mr E N N NGCOBO (ANC): Madam Chair and hon members, the ANC welcomes
the initiative taken by our government for the bid to host a massive
NASA installation that may one day control the first human navigated
mission to planet Mars. The NASA project is one of the four huge
potential or existing space projects, which can turn Southern Africa
into the world’s most complete hub for the exploration of the
universe.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 15
If approved, the NASA project will be joining the Hess Gamma Ray
Observatory in Namibia, which is the largest of its kind in the
universe. If we succeed in our bid to host the NASA project, South
Africa will be directly involved in NASA planning for the 2020
landing on the planet Mars.
These projects would place Southern Africa in the poll position to
answer some of the crucial questions in science that have so far
escaped humanity. The presence of these NASA stations within our
borders would encourage learners and students to redouble their
efforts in their maths and science subjects. To those who teach
these subjects it will serve as a greater incentive to dig deep into
their research about these subjects. Thank you.
DISPENSING FEE CHARGED BY PHARMACISTS
(Member’s Statement)
Mr R COETZEE (DA): Chair, it is becoming increasingly clear that the
dispensing fee that pharmacists may charge, in terms of the
regulations governing medicine prices, is inappropriate and
unreasonable, and likely to cause the closure of many pharmacies. It
is particularly shocking that the pricing committee did no proper
research into the economic impact of those regulations on
pharmacies.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 16
Pharmacists from around the country have produced hard evidence that
shows the dispensing fee will force them to operate at a loss, and
that as a result many will have to close shop. Pharmacy closures
will make it harder for South Africans to access safe medicines. If
pharmacies close, patients will be the losers.
The Minister needs to intervene urgently to resolve this crisis. She
should withdraw the regulations and ask the pricing committee
responsible for them to produce clear and reasonable regulations
that are based on a proper impact assessment of their likely impact.
CONDEMNATION OF INCIDENT AT BESLAN PRIMARY SCHOOL
(Member’s Statement)
Prof S M MAYATULA (ANC): Madam Speaker, the ANC learned with great
shock and sadness of the incidents at Beslan Primary School. We join
the international community in condemning in the strongest possible
terms the murder of innocent civilians and school children. During
the three-day ordeal, women and children were denied access to
medication, food, water and basic rights to relieve themselves.
The hostage takers forced the hostages to drink urine. More than 348
innocent souls were lost. We refuse to accept any justification for
the killing of innocent children and women, especially for political
reasons.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 17
We join our government in extending our deepest condolences to the
Russian government, the families that lost their loved ones and the
people of Russia. We wish all those injured a speedy recovery. Thank
you. [Applause.]
SERIOUS PROBLEMS REGARDING METRORAIL
(Member’s Statement)
Mr S B FARROW (DA): Madam Chair, judging by the streams of
complaints coming into our DA offices, clearly something is wrong
with Metrorail, and commuters seem to be getting no assistance or
response from the Minister or the department. The Minister’s own
experiences on Metro Rail recently substantiate some of these
complaints, namely that trains are cancelled without notice, that
they arrive late, that changes in timetables take place without
consultation, that congestion at station exits and entrances cause
delay. Poor or no security exists at stations, despite promises that
the transport police pilot project would be implemented on 1 April
in Cape Town this year.
Coaches are dirty and vandalised. Employers and workers alike have
had enough. The time has come for strong action to safeguard the
economy and to prevent job losses caused by overcrowding and late
arrivals. The DA calls on the Minister to reconsider Metro Rail’s
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 18
future as a monopoly, and to implement measures to increase
efficiency and improve service levels in order to abate the present
situation.
We should also urgently review the position of the passenger rail
utility within the broader public transport plan and consider the
possibility of introducing new partnerships into the rail commuter
market to get Metrorail back on track before the 2010 Soccer World
Cup. Thank you, Madam.
KIDNAPPINGS IN SOUTH AFRICA
(Member’s Statement)
Mr L K JOUBERT (IFP): Thank you, Madam Chair. Kidnapping seems to be
a growing phenomenon in South Africa. In many cases children are the
victims of this cowardly crime. There have been incidents of
kidnappings occurring almost simultaneously in provinces around this
country.
In the Western Cape, for example, numerous children who had been
reported missing were later found murdered. In Gauteng there was a
high-profile case recently where a young woman student was kidnapped
and later found murdered. In Limpopo province a young boy was
kidnapped and mutilated while he was still alive. He, too, later
died in hospital.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 19
Very worrying, especially for the families of these victims, is that
many of these cases are not solved. Families are therefore left with
many unanswered questions while the murderers walk free.
We urge the government to try and find ways to prevent kidnappings
from occurring as well as means for bringing the perpetrators to
book. I thank you.
MURDERS IN MADLANKALA
(Member’s Statement)
Ms T E LISHIVHA (ANC): Chairperson, the ANC condemns in the
strongest possible terms the murder of a grandmother and her two
grandchildren aged two and five years. The community of Madlankala,
outside Esikhawini, was rudely woken by the sound of guns and cries
of victims of violence. Our thoughts are with the family of the
victims and the community of Madlankala.
We call on Esikhawini community to mobilise itself against crime and
work to strengthen co-operation between the people, the community,
the policing forum and the SA Police Service in that area. We
therefore call upon the SA Police Service not to leave any stone
unturned in their investigation, and to bring the perpetrators of
this heinous crime to book. Thank you.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 20
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S BOTHA): ANC?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Chair, on a point of order:
The ANC submits a whole long list of potential speakers. But, after
an ANC member has spoken, a DA member should come in. Then, if you
see somebody, with respect, the ANC can have another turn.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S BOTHA): Hon member, I’m afraid that in
terms of an agreed formula of the Rules committee, this is the order
in which this will take place. Therefore, if it has to be changed,
it will have to go back to the Rules committee. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Chair, there is no agreed
arrangement whereby the ANC would have two successive speakers.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S BOTHA): Hon member, would you mind
taking that up with the Whips where they can perhaps sort this out
and not here. [Applause.] [Interjections.]
NORTH WEST PROVINCIAL GROWTH AND DEVELOPMENT SUMMIT
(Member’s Statement)
Ms L L MABE (ANC): Ke a leboha modula setulo. [Thank you,
Chairperson.] The North West provincial government, business, labour
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 21
and civil society recently held a provincial growth and development
summit at Sun City. That summit was a resounding success. It paved
the way for economic development in the province in order to address
poverty eradication, issues of the dual economy and broad-based
black economic empowerment.
/
The ANC congratulates the Development Bank of South Africa, Absa,
Standard Bank, FNB and the mining company, Xstrata, for their
pledges and commitment to ensure that they participate and
contribute to economic transformation in the province. This is
engagement in the people’s contract to eradicate poverty.
MEDICINE PRICES AND POSITION OF PHARMACISTS
(Minister’s Response)
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZEMPILO: Sihlalo, uCoetzee ukhuluma izinto angazazi
nje. Bengicabanga ukuthi uCoetzee uyilungu leKomidi lezeMpilo
lePhalamende. Sigqigqe ekomidini lezempilo siya kochaza ukuthi yini
ebeyenziwa yikomidi lezamanani. Uma efika lapha akhulume sengathi
akalona ilungu lekomidi, kungcono asitshele. (Translation of Zulu
paragraph follows.)
[The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, the hon Coetzee speaks about
something he doesn’t understand. I thought the hon Coetzee was a
member of the Portfolio Committee on Health. We have been up and
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 22
down before the Portfolio Committee on Health to explain what the
pricing committee has done. When he comes here he speaks like a
person who is not a member of the committee; he had better tell us.]
What I want to state categorically is that I will not withdraw the
regulations. There is an unwavering commitment from this side of the
House to bring down the prices of medicines in this country.
[Applause.]
Kudala osokhemisi bevala ngaphambi kokuba siqale lo msebenzi. Base
bevele bevala kwakuqala ngoba behluleka ukusebenza ngokubambisana
nabanye. Enye into futhi engifuna ukuyisho ukuthi bake bavala lapha
eCape Town kodwa baphinde bazivulela ngokwabo, singabancenganga.
Angithi bafuna imali? Bayoqhubeka benze njalo – bavale bavule,
bavale bavule. Kodwa izindawo zethu zezempilo zona zizoqhubeka
zisebenze, abantu bathole imithi emitholampilo nasezibhedlela
zikahulumeni. Uma bengafuni, sesiyobonana phambili.
Futhi uCoetzee uyazi ukuthi le ndaba isenkantolo, ngakho-ke iwudaba
esingeludingide. Uyangiqala nje, kodwa angizikuvuma ukuqalwa uyena.
[Uhleko.] (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)
[The pharmaceutical companies were closing down even before we
started. They were closing down because they were failing to work
together with others. I would like to add that here in Cape Town at
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 23
one stage they closed down and they reopened on their own without
anyone begging them.
They need money. They will continue doing so - closing down and
reopening, closing down and reopening. Our places of health will
continue to operate; people will get medicines from clinics and
public hospitals. If they don’t want this, we will meet in court.]
The hon Coetzee is aware that this matter is before the court and
therefore is a matter we cannot discuss. He’s teasing me but I will
not allow him to tease me. [Applause.]]
EMPHASIS ON DEVELOPING DOMESTIC TOURISM MARKET
(Minister’s Response)
The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS AND TOURISM: Chairperson, I
would like to react to hon Arendse’s statement. Internationally the
trend with regard to tourism was a negative one, whereas in South
Africa we had quite the opposite trend. But if we really want to be
a successful country tourism-wise, we have to develop our domestic
market.
That is why in this tourism month we are concentrating on developing
the domestic market. The hon member refers to the very successful
domestic tourism market campaign that is on our television sets at
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 24
the moment. We are receiving extremely good feedback with regard to
it. We have no doubt that the figures will actually support our view
in that regard in a very short time.
There is an emerging market in the country of 6,3 million South
Africans who never before saw themselves as being able to go on
holiday. We are concentrating on that market. We want to convince
them that it is within their ability and their grasp also to be
tourists in their own country.
We will celebrate tourism month in September. The culmination of the
events will be on the 27th of this month in Phalaborwa, Limpopo, and
a week or two after that we will also have a tourism conference to
which we have already invited all the key-players.
Cabinet has identified tourism as one of the growth sectors and we
will continue to . . .
[Inaudible.] [Applause.]
TRADITIONAL HEALTH PRACTITIONERS BILL
(Second Reading debate)
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): I am looking for the hon
Minister of Health.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 25
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: You can’t look for me on that side of the
House. [Laughter.] You are looking in the wrong direction - I sit on
this side! [Laughter.] [Applause.]
Sihlalo, malungu ahloniphekile ePhalamende, belaphi bendabuko,
ngiyanibingelela ngentokozo enkulu futhi ngethemba ukuthi nize lapha
ukuzozizwela ngezindlebe zenu ukuthi zinto zini esizama ukuzenza
ukubuyisa ubuntu bethu nenhlonipho yamasiko ethu. [Ihlombe.] Malungu
ezigungu zezifundazwe, ama-MECs, nani ngiyanibingelela futhi
ngiyathokoza ukuthi ninathi namhlanje. (Translation of Zulu
paragraph follows.)
[Chairperson, hon members and traditional healers, I have pleasure
in greeting all of you, and hope that you have come to listen to us
and to find out what it is that we are doing to reaffirm our
Africanness and respect our culture. [Applause.] I also greet the
members of provincial councils and MECs, and it is with pleasure
that I see you are also with us today.]
Therefore it gives me great pleasure to present to you today the
Traditional Health Practitioners Bill. It would be an understatement
to say that traditional health practitioners have been around for a
long time in Africa and other parts of the world. They sustained the
health of African people, like some of us, over centuries.
Unfortunately, this important source of life for millions of our
people suffered severe degradation and oppression when our history
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 26
and culture as Africans was being eroded during the era of
colonialism and apartheid.
Nabanye abangalapha basaya futhi ezinyangeni ebusuku. Ningacabangi
ukuthi abayi ngoba bayaya. [Uhleko.] [Ubuwelewele.] Ngiyakuncoma
phela, ngikuncoma.[Some members of the opposition do go to
traditional healers during the evening. [Applause.] [Interjections.]
I appreciate it.]
It was not so long ago that traditional health practitioners were
being labelled with such derogatory names as witch doctors and
wizards. Those who consulted these health practitioners and remained
faithful to our cultural beliefs were castigated as demons and
heathens.
As with other sections of our society, the indigenous health system
resisted this oppression, and that is why we still have some 200 000
traditional health practitioners in our country. I am sure the
number will increase. Of course, the lack of regulation and coordinated development has had some negative impacts on this section
of health care.
There are those who used this situation to falsify claims of being
traditional health practitioners with the aim of ripping off our
people and exposing them to all kinds of health risks. All this has
come to end.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 27
Now, as we reclaim our history and dignity during the African
century, and as we begin the second decade of our freedom and
democracy, we are not alone in our intention to recognise the role
and importance of traditional health practitioners and traditional
medicines.
In fact, a week ago we established a committee among Malawi,
Zimbabwe and us to further investigate traditional medicine. Also,
the SADC Health Protocol states that the 14 SADC member states
should endeavour to develop mechanisms to regulate and better
understand traditional heath. The World Health Organisation has
already declared 31 August as an African traditional medicine day,
which we celebrated for the first time last year in our country.
The WHO strategic plan on traditional medicine makes a series of
recommendations for its 196 member states. Key amongst these is the
official recognition of and legislation on traditional medicines by
national governments, and the recognition of this field of practice
as an equally important component of national health care systems.
Some of the priority areas identified by the WHO are: identification
of and research into safe and effective traditional medical
treatment for diseases that represent the greatest burden;
recognition of the role of traditional medical practitioners in
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 28
providing health care; and preservation and protection of indigenous
traditional medical knowledge.
Hon members, the proposed legislation on traditional health
practitioners that is before you today will go a long way towards
the realisation of these priorities. The Bill creates a framework
within which many of these priorities can be systematically dealt
with involving traditional practitioners themselves.
Our work in this field as the Department of Health is not only
limited to regulating individual practitioners in the area. During
the African Traditional Medicine Day last year we launched the
National Institute for African Traditional Medicine as a reference
centre for traditional medicines. The centre is a joint initiative
involving the Department of Health, the Medical Research Council,
the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research and traditional
health practitioners themselves.
Its objectives are, amongst other things, the establishment of an
information system on traditional medicines; the promotion of
research and development focused on standardisation and
authorisation of products based on medicinal plants; the
identification of education and training needs relating to
traditional medicine; the protection of indigenous knowledge; and
the promotion of trade in an environmentally sustainable and
economically viable way.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 29
Similar reference centres have also been established in other
provinces, including here in the Western Cape, as part of our
comprehensive plan for the management, care and treatment of HIV and
Aids. We have transferred more than R6 million for research into
traditional medicine that brings benefits to people living with HIV.
We have also established a pharmacological vigilance centre at the
Medical University of SA, Medunsa, in order to monitor the impact of
these and other Aids-related treatments.
The passing of the Bill before you, hon members, will affirm the
dignity and respect to which thousands of traditional healers and
millions of their patients are entitled. The Traditional Health
Practitioners Bill has been in the making for a while. The Portfolio
Committee on Health explored the possibility of regulating this
sector some six years ago whilst I was still its chairperson,
following consultative forums that were held in various provinces.
It has taken this long to finalise this Bill, because it is a
groundbreaking piece of legislation. There are no precedents to
follow, except our general understanding of how other practitioners
are regulated and the information provided by traditional health
practitioners on their functions.
Traditional health practitioners are clearly not the same as
doctors, nurses and other conventional health practitioners in their
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 30
approach to the delivery of health services. The question was
whether they could be regulated in a manner similar to that of other
health practitioners. We therefore made sure that we came up not
just with a Bill that recognised their uniqueness, but also made it
possible to set professional and ethical norms and standards and
empower them to regulate themselves as professionals.
Formal legal recognition of the practice of traditional medicine has
a number of benefits for practitioners and their patients. In terms
of the Medical Schemes Act, schemes may only pay for health services
rendered by registered health practitioners. When this Bill is
passed, traditional health practitioners will become registered
practitioners in terms of the law. [Applause.]
Another advantage is that genuine practitioners can be distinguished
from charlatans. Only those who are properly skilled will be able to
practice. Because this is a new area for us, we will have to develop
the regulations in collaboration with traditional health
practitioners through the Interim Traditional Health Practitioners
Council. The main objective of the interim council is to make
recommendations to the Minister of Health on the composition and the
constitution of the permanent council, its scope of practice and
required education and training, as well as norms and standards of
practice.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 31
We are seeking to regulate four kinds of practitioners: The
diviners, or izangoma; herbalists, or izinyanga; traditional birth
attendants; and traditional surgeons. Anyone wanting to practice
traditional medicine will have to be registered with the council.
They will have to satisfy the council that they possess the
necessary skills and knowledge to render traditional health
services. Patients will also be able to appeal to the council when
aggrieved with the service.
The majority of traditional health practitioners consulted during
the development of this Bill wanted to be recognised and regulated
by the House and government. They want to be recognised as valuable
partners in the provision of health services.
The Traditional Health Practitioners Bill will be of significant
benefit to thousands of traditional health practitioners and
millions of their patients. The vast majority of people of this
country use the services of traditional health practitioners as a
first point of contact with the health system.
I thank you for your time. I trust you will support the enactment of
this Bill and contribute to restoring the dignity of millions of
Africans. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr R COETZEE: Madam Chair, as the DA we support this Bill, just as
we opposed the medicine regulations that have come into effect. And
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 32
if the Minister thinks that people are going to stand in queues in
hospitals for up to 14 hours a day in order to get medicines because
the chemists have closed down, then I think she, in the words of
George W Bush, “misunderestimates the amount of unhappiness that
exists out there”. [Interjections.]
The DA supports this Bill, and we believe that there are three good
reasons to do so. The first is that the Bill confirms and formally
recognises the central role that traditional healers play in seeing
to the health needs of our people.
It is not just South Africans who are increasingly recognising that
traditional medicine has a value, which has long been neglected by
formal health systems. The World Health Organisation’s first global
strategy on alternative medicine advocates the integration of
Western and traditional medicine. Last month Ebrahim Samba, the
World Health Organisation’s regional director for Africa, appealed
to African countries to be more active in developing traditional
medicine to reduce deaths from preventable diseases such as malaria.
He stressed the need for mutual respect and closer co-operation
between modern and traditional health practitioners.
It is very likely that traditional medicine will, in the future,
give us new hope in the treatment of diseases that continue to rob
our people of their health and their lives. Our own Medical Research
Council has already started to explore these possibilities with
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 33
research into indigenous knowledge systems, and in this it joins
many other African countries doing similar work. Moreover,
traditional health practitioners are all in private practice, and
they take on a large part of the heavy demand for health care in our
country that would otherwise fall to the state to provide.
For the vast majority of South Africans traditional medicine is the
only health system that is both easily accessible and affordable.
This is especially so when we consider the grave human resource
crisis that besets the public health care system in our country and
for which a set of solutions is desperately and urgently required.
So traditional health practitioners are very much a part of the
solution as far as the provision of health care goes. This Bill will
reinforce that.
Secondly, the Bill seeks to provide the patients of traditional
health practitioners with protection from mistreatment and
malpractice. I am pleased to say that together with my colleagues on
the portfolio committee, we managed to amend the draft Bill by
making it a requirement that the Traditional Health Practioners’
Council, and I quote:
Publish information regarding the objects and functions of the
council, its operations and the rights that any member of the
public has under this Act.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 34
Legislation that exists in a vacuum is no good to anyone. It is no
use giving citizens the right to lay complaints, unless we also make
an effort to inform them of that right and ensure that they are able
to exercise it. So the council must find an effective way to
publicise its existence and the service it provides to members of
the public.
The council must take this requirement very seriously and must not
think that it has fulfilled its obligation if it publishes
information in the Gazette or some other official publication that
has a very limited readership.
Thirdly, by conferring on traditional health practitioners formal
status in our law, this Bill reaffirms our constitutional commitment
to the promotion of cultural diversity and tolerance of difference.
For some it is doubtless a controversial piece of legislation, or at
least a strange one. The New York Times - I was astonished to see devoted a decent-sized article to this Bill before any South African
newspaper did, to the best of my knowledge. And it displayed a
certain admiration for our ability to, and I quote: “. . . straddle
the divide between traditional and empirical medicine.
The lesson is that respect for cultural and religious practices does
not have to involve tolerance of harm and does not require us to
close our eyes to rights violations. Equally, a concern for the
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 35
rights and safety of our people does not demand a rejection of
valuable cultural knowledge or practice.
I should add here that the Bill does not seek to regulate the spirit
world, as some have suggested. It seeks to regulate the behaviour of
human beings and hold those creatures of flesh and blood accountable
for their actions irrespective of their motives or inspiration.
Our Constitution is clear that no individual is entitled to harm
another on any grounds whatsoever, and the Bill reaffirms that.
Having said that, there may be problems to which this piece of
legislation does give rise. In particular, some concern has been
expressed that traditional health practitioners will give patients
leave to take an excessive amount of time off from work, and this
would adversely effect our economy. While I can find no convincing
evidence that that is likely to occur on any significant scale, if
it does, then we would obviously need to consider the implications
and make appropriate adjustments to the law.
In conclusion, Madam Chair, I wish to deal with the implications of
this legislation for the ongoing campaign against HIV/Aids. The
legislation will make it illegal for anyone who is not a registered
traditional health practitioner to offer treatment or a cure for
Aids - that is as it should be. But from this, it must not be
inferred that registered traditional health practitioners are able
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 36
to offer a cure for Aids. There is as yet no cure for Aids, either
traditional or otherwise.
Although the progress of the disease can be slowed by changes to
one’s lifestyle and diet, the only effective way in which it is
possible to launch a sustained offensive against the virus is
through the use of antiretroviral drugs. That is the reason a
greater effort must be made to give people living with Aids access
to antiretrovirals.
We need a much greater sense of urgency in rolling out the
antiretroviral programme, and in this regard we need to set
realistic timetables and deadlines to which those who are
responsible for implementing the programme can be held accountable.
I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr L V J NGCULU: Thank you very much, Madam Chair. We are now at the
closure of the first decade of freedom and are poised to enter the
second decade. Steadily, as we move towards the future consolidation
of our hard-earned freedom, we resolve to reverse the
marginalisation of the African people. Their culture and esteem are
now strengthened.
This piece of legislation is yet another nail in the coffin of white
supremacy. For centuries the practice of traditional health in our
country was subject to ridicule and marginalisation. Traditional
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 37
healers were regarded as wizards and witches, and their practising
as paganistic, backward and unhealthy. This happened in spite of the
fact that their practising healed and rescued life and limb for
centuries before and after colonisation and conquest.
We recall that the Grey Hospital in King William’s Town is named
after Sir George Grey, who at some point was a governor of the Cape.
The plaque at that hospital states that the hospital was built in
order to counteract acts of witchcraft. This means that our practice
of traditional healing was regarded as witchcraft. Hence, of course,
what the Minister says, that “ . . . inkqubo yethu yamaxhwele
namagqirha soloko njalo kubalulekile ukuba ibe nembeko nesidima.
Simele ukuba siyazi into yokuba kwantlandlolo, kudala yanyanga
abantu.” [It is imperative that our programme of traditional healers
and traditional doctors should have respect and dignity at all
times. We have to know that since time immemorial it has been
healing people.]
We all know that Western education and propaganda have done much to
discredit our heritage and culture. We also know that part of the
opposition to and marginalisation of traditional medicine and
traditional healers had to do with profit. This was a period of
systematic destruction of the dignity, knowledge and belief in the
efficacy of our traditional methods of prevention and care. It might
perhaps be the very same mistake, unwittingly, that is slipping into
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 38
the mind of hon Ryan Coetzee, who counterpoises the issue of
efficacy of antiretrovirals versus traditional healing.
We should not find contradictions in these two practices; they
complement each other. Both are important in the overall
intervention in the health of our people. These medicines, of
course, we all know, are not only used in this country, but perhaps
in 80% of our continent and the entirety of the world. They are more
available, more affordable and simple to use.
One traditional healer on our continent, Dr J Ngombe, stated that
the secret of traditional medicine lies in the proper dosage and its
preparation. Hence today we must salute the Department of Health for
introducing this very important piece of legislation. We are
beginning to give proper meaning to the dignity of the African
people.
Of course, it is also important to note that this Bill also aims at
ensuring the efficacy, safety and quality of traditional health care
services and to provide control over registration, the practice and
training of traditional healers.
The Bill also provides for the establishment of the interim
traditional practitioners’ council of South Africa, which, among
other things, will actually ensure that it promotes public health
awareness. It will ensure the equality of health services in the
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 39
traditional health care arena. It will protect and serve the
interests of the public.
The council will also ensure that it issues guidelines concerning
the practice of traditional health, make enquiries and conduct
investigation into complaints and allegations concerning the conduct
of registered practitioners. In other words, the council is designed
to serve the interests of the people and also to regulate the
linkages between traditional health practitioners and other health
practitioners. Once again, there is no contradiction between the
two.
It must also ensure that it advises the Minister on the scope,
including the health needs of our country. It will also, in
consultation with the department, ensure that it determines policy
decisions regarding matters relative to educational fees, etc.
The council shall ensure that it is representative in its
composition, that traditional health practitioners from each
province, medical practitioners, pharmacists, communities and
various categories of traditional healers are all represented.
The Bill, therefore, once again restores respect and dignity to a
practice that was somehow consigned to the book of history. It
brings respect to the African person. We shall ensure that a
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 40
practice that has saved our lives for many centuries occupies its
rightful place in our country.
We are also aware that it is important for us to ensure that in our
approach we move away from the Western paradigm of health and that
we recognise other paradigms of health that also contribute to the
wellness and the health of the people. Also, it is most important to
recognise that to be a traditional healer, you need not have formal
education.
Uyathwasa; uyabizwa; unazo zonke izinto ze ube ngumkhwetha. Kodwa
siyavumelana ukuba kubalulekile ukuba abantu baqhube beyiphucula le
nto bayenzayo ukwenzela ukuba abantu bazi ukuba ihamba namaxesha;
amaxesha ngamanye. (Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.) [You
are being traditionally called; you have all these traditional gifts
to become a recruit. But we agree that it is crucial that people
continue to improve what they are doing so that people know that it
goes with the changing times; time has changed.]
The Bill is broad when it relates to disqualification. We run away
from the Western approach to education and recognise a number of
other approaches. However, it is also most important for us to
recognise that everything moves according to time and space,
including knowledge. In order for this practice to consolidate its
rightful place in South Africa, it must meet today’s challenges.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 41
Ungaba yingcibi kuba usithi wawuyingcibi kwakudala, kodwa kula
maxesha siphila kuwo kukho izifo ngezifo. Kubalulekile ke ukuba ube
yingcibi ekwaziyo ukulungisa iingxaki ezinjalo . .
(Translation of
Xhosa paragraph follows.)
[You can be an initiation surgeon, because you say you have been one
for a long time. But nowadays there are different types of diseases.
It is therefore important that you become an initiation surgeon who
are able to rectify such problems.]
. . . so that as ingcibi, a traditional surgeon, you are also able
to contribute to the avoidance of morbidity, mortality as well as
the questions of HIV and Aids. And therefore it is important that
knowledge is actually updated.
There is also a provision that actually deals with the question of
bogus practitioners in this practice, as well as search of and
access to premises. My colleagues from the ANC will contribute
further with regard to this aspect, including the transitional
arrangements that are actually outlined in the Bill.
It is also important for us all to note that for the first time all
traditional healers of our country shall be regulated, hence the
need to ensure that the process of registration is not rushed, so
that we do not disadvantage a number of our people. As the ANC we
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 42
salute this seminal piece of legislation most importantly as it
comes during the celebration of the Heritage Month, September.
As part of the celebration of our freedom, traditional medicine and
practitioners are beginning to be recognised as a critical component
in improving the health of our people. We are certain, as proclaimed
in the Bill, that the dignity and the integrity of this practice are
being restored.
We also remember the song of Vuyisile Mini, which went: “Bhasobha
indod’emnyama, Verwoerd. [Beware the black man, Verwoerd.] We
support this Bill. [Applause.]
Dr R RABINOWITZ: Thank you, Madam Speaker. It is high time that
Western disciples of scientific materialism recognise the vast
storehouse of indigenous knowledge at the fingertips of traditional
herbalists such as those visiting us today. It is also high time
that the thousands of traditional healers, who have influence over
the minds and bodies of millions of South Africans, become part of
the effort to tackle HIV and TB.
The IFP welcomes the passing of this Bill as a watershed in the
provision of health care in our country. We have long called for cooperation between different medical paradigms, so that we can
jointly tackle epidemics such as HIV and TB. Western orthodox
doctors, homeopaths, ayurvedists, Chinese herbal doctors and
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 43
traditional practitioners must jointly spread the word that HIV is
caused by a virus, spread by sexual intercourse or blood
contamination, identified by conventional testing methods, and
treated with a vast array of methods including diet, herbs, mental
attitude and antiretrovirals.
Myths must be dispelled, such as that sleeping with a virgin combats
Aids. But we are concerned that this Bill will add even more
contradictions to the irrational mix of control and compete in our
health policy. It may also be impossible to implement, become
tokenist or make the same mistake as the law regulating alternative
health practitioners.
The statutory council includes everyone from beauty therapists to
homeopaths with a six-year degree. It has lowered standards of
alternative health care and rendered it virtually unaccountable. In
this traditional health practitioner’s council would be
professionals who use a wide variety of methods and who would range
from learned traditional surgeons, birth attendants and herbalists
or inyangas, who work transparently with medical doctors to sangomas
who combine esoteric practices with sound herbal knowledge.
Trying to regulate these practitioners the same way as doctors are
regulated will be well nigh impossible. The Bill reflects this by
referring to traditional health practice as a means of diagnosing,
treating, and preventing physical and mental illness. But how does
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 44
one regulate and hold people accountable for diagnoses based on
ideologies, beliefs and customs? How does one punish practitioners
for improper or disgraceful conduct, or attach evidence to, “books,
records, documents or things that relate to the matter under
investigation”?
Much that is contentious will come in regulations, such as the
following. Will medicines be registered by the MCC? Will traditional
health practitioners be entitled to issue medical certificates? Will
medicine prices be fixed? Will practitioners be condemned by an
ethics committee and lose their licence to practise and cease
practising? How will things be evaluated and unprofessional conduct
be judged?
Things that members felt could not be identified included concepts
such as “uchatho”, which is an enema syringe; “umantindane”, which
is the “tokoloshe”; “umhlahlo”, which is divining; “imfene”, which
is a baboon riding at night; and “ukugcaba”, which are cut marks. If
such things cannot be classified and regulated as permissible
implements, substances, and actions, any attempt to regulate them
will be impossible.
We propose that in regulation at least a list of outlawed activities
be clearly enunciated. The IFP would have liked to narrow the scope
of this Bill, clarify its range and use it to improve the
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 45
communication between traditional practitioners and Western doctors,
and to promote documentation and research in traditional medicine.
We have had 10 years in which to register the failure of our health
department; to improve communication between Western doctors and
homeopaths, instead of encouraging doctors to widen their vision,
scope and training; and to share continued professional development
points. Practitioners are rigidly divided and discouraged from
developing an integrated development approach.
Many patients are financially exploited by ordinary doctors and by
traditional health practitioners. And the Bill calls for the council
to determine and publish fees that are the norm. The traditional
practitioner may be required to return the amount deemed to be in
excess. But this price control is legislated at the same time that
we have a competition commission commissar, who has slapped a fine
of R15 million on the Hospital Association of South Africa for
publishing an independent assessment on hospital costs, and fined
the Board of Health Care Funders and the Medical Association of
South Africa for publishing recommended tariffs which medical
schemes should pay providers.
But who then should protect patients from excessive charges? We have
fixed medicine prices, fixed pharmacy charges, but leave medical
scheme charges to the market. We have free orthodox practitioners,
but controlled traditional ones. It is a muddle to say the least.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 46
There is little in this legislation that will increase the
confidence of practitioners with priceless indigenous knowledge to
share their wisdom so that their medicines can be patented,
cultivated and be a source of reward for their communities.
The concept of benefit-sharing has not been clarified and remains
contentious. The patenting of indigenous knowledge has not been
secured and biopiracy is alive and well. And as fewer people remain
alive with indigenous knowledge, the race intensifies to capitalise
on their wisdom. Clear steps are needed to promote the protection
and development of the herbal industry.
Unfortunately we are speeding ahead with genetically modified
organism industries, but lagging behind in promoting indigenous
knowledge. To its credit, this Bill acknowledges that Western style
science-based medicine is not the only means of treating disease,
and that disease is not merely due to an assault by bacteria,
viruses or parasites, or due to chemical imbalances or mechanical
faults. It allows a more holistic view of disease as a lack of
balance in a person’s physical, emotional and spiritual realms, and
we hope it will produce a lot more research.
In summary, the IFP supports the Bill. The legislation is necessary;
it’s moving in the right direction; it’s experimental and it’s
ambitious, but it represents the beginning of a learning curve and
will require a lot more refining. Thank you.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 47
Nk M N S MANANA: Sihlalo, ngibonga kuNgqongqoshe wezeMpilo namaLungu
ahloniphekile ePhalamende ngokuthola leli thuba lokuthi ngiphawule
kulo Mthethosivivinywa. Angiqale-ke ngokusho ukuthi ngiyawemukela lo
Mthethosivivinywa ngiphinde ngiwesekele futhi.
Sesiside-ke isikhathi abelaphi bendabuko benganikwa indawo yabo,
bebukelwa phansi futhi bengahlonishwa umphakathi. Kusukela endulo,
abelaphi bendabuko babekhona bengakafiki abaseNtsonalanga. Yibona
abakade belapha lapha eNingizimu Afrika kusukela kudala kanti
basaqhubeka nakho futhi. Eminyakeni eminingi kade bebukelwa phansi
kuthiwa bangabathakathi. Uma ufuna usizo kubo, nawe ububukelwa
phansi ubukeke sengathi awuhlakaniphile ngoba ungayi kodokotela
besilungu.
UNgqongqoshe wezeMpilo ubazi ukuthi ezempilo zizobe aziphelele uma
abelaphi bendabuko bengakabi yingxenye yezempilo. Yingakho ebone
kukuhle ukuthi kube khona lo Mthetho ophathelene nabo. Ngithanda
ukubonga uNgqongqoshe wezeMpilo ngoba ubonile ukuthi isikhathi
sesifikile sokuthi abelaphi bendabuko bahlonishwe, futhi babekwe
endaweni efanele njengeyokwelapha. Nabantu abaya kofuna usizo kubo
kufuneka bazizwe bekhululekile, bangabukelwa phansi. Ngithanda
ukubonga kakhulu kunina belaphi bendabuko ngomsebenzi omuhle kakhulu
eniwenzile wokwelapha abantu balapha eNingizimu Afrika, nanjengoba
nisaqhubeka nokubelapha. Thokozani bogogo! [Ihlombe.]
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 48
Ukwelapha ngamakhambi kudala kusetshenziswa esizweni, kanjalo
nokhokho bethu babewasebenzisa. Umsebenzi wabelaphi bendabuko
usemqoka kakhulu kanti futhi obabo ubuchwepheshe bujule kakhulu.
Inhlangano kaKhongolose ithi isikhathi sokuthi abelaphi bendabuko
basebenze ngokomthetho walapha eNingizimu Afrika sesifikile.
Lo Mthethosivivinywa uzokwenza ukuthi kube khona umkhandlu
kazwelonke wesikhashana ozohlala iminyaka emithathu, ngokuvumelana
noNgqongqoshe wezeMpilo. Lo mkhandlu uzosebenza njengeminye
imikhandlu efana neyabahlengikazi, odokotela, neminye efana naleyo.
Inhloso yalo mkhandlu kuzoba ukwazisa umphakathi ngobukhona bawo lo
mkhandlu; uzoqinisekisa izinga eliphezulu lokwelapha kubelaphi
bendabuko; uzovikela amalungelo omphakathi - okuyiziguli zabo;
uzobona ukuthi baluqhubekisa kanjani ulwazi lwabo; uzobuka ukuthi
aziphatha kahle yini amalungu awo; kanti futhi uzovikela ukuthi
iziguli zingaxhashazwa abelaphi bendabuko.
Umsebenzi walo mkhandlu uzoba yilokhu okulandelayo: uzokwenza
uphenyo uma kukhona izikhalo emphakathini; uzovumelana nabelaphi
bendabuko ngoluhla olufanele abazosebenza ngalo; uzokwenza imithetho
ephathelene nomkhandlu; uzokwazi ukuthenga izinto zomkhandlu
ngaphansi kwegama lomkhandlu; uzokweluleka uNgqongqoshe wezeMpilo
ngezinto obona ukuthi kufanele umtshele zona; uzokwenza imithetho
ephathelene nokusebenza kwabelaphi bendabuko; uzogcina amagama abo
bonke abelaphi bendabuko eNingizimu Afrika; wonke umuntu ongumelaphi
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 49
wendabuko kuzofanele ukuthi abe khona ohlwini ukuze aziwe ukuthi
ungumelaphi; uzokwazi ukuqasha izisebenzi ezizosebenzela umkhandlu;
uzokwazi ukukhulumisana neminye imikhandlu efana neyodokotela;
uzoxhumana noNgqongqoshe ngezinto ezibalulekile eziphathelene
nomphakathi; uzogcina izimali zomkhandlu; uzophinda ugcine nezimali
ezikhokhwa amalungu akade ekhipha izimfanelo zawo kanye ngonyaka.
Mangisho-ke ukuthi lo mkhandlu uzoma kanjani. Lo mkhandlu
uzokwakhiwa abantu abangama-22. Usihlalo uzokhethwa uNgqongqoshe
wezeMpilo, iphini lakhe lizokhethwa umkhandlu qobo lwawo. Izifunda
ngezifundazwe zona zizoba nomuntu ozimele ongumelaphi wendabuko
kodwa ozobe eneminyaka eyisihlanu akuqeqeshelwa ukwelapha. Amanye
amalungu amathathu kuzoba ngamalungu omphakathi azobe ebhekele
izidingo zomphakathi, kanti futhi sizoba nabanye abaphuma kweminye
imikhandlu efana ne-Health Profession Council ne-Pharmacy Council.
Kuzoba khona futhi ozobe ephuma eMnyangweni wezeMpilo.
Mangisho-ke futhi ukuthi obani abantu abafanele ukuthi babe kulo
mkhandlu: abantu abahlala lapha eNingizimu Afrika; kungenzeka ungabi
yilungu lalo mkhandlu uma ungasahlali lapha eNingizimu Afrika noma
uma kuthokalakala ukuthi ugula ngengqondo, njengoba kushiwo
esigabeni 1 se-Mental Health Care Act wango-2002; uma uziyekela
ngokwakho, ufaka isicelo sokuthi ukhululwe, ungayekiswa ukuba
yilungu lalo mkhandlu; uma ungaziphathi kahle njengelungu
lomkhandlu; kanti futhi uma kungenzeka ushone, uphelelwa ubulungu
balo mkhandlu. Kungenzeka kube khona izinto ongazenza ezikwenza
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 50
ukuthi ungabe usaphumelela ukuba yilungu lalo mkhandlu; uma kwenzeka
uhamba lapha eNingizimu Afrika; uma ungasesona isakhamuzi
saseNingizimu Afrika; uma ungaboshwa ngaphandle kokuvunyelwa ukuthi
ukhiphe inhlawulo; uma usebenza kwezombusazwe; kanti futhi uma
uyilungu lePhalamende noma yilungu lephalamende lesifundazwe noma
uyilungu lomkhandlu kamasipala.
Lo mkhandlu kufanele uhlangane kabili ngonyaka ngaphandle uma
usihlalo esho ukuthi ufuna ukubiza eminye imihlangano. Lo mkhandlu
uzoba nesigungu esikhulu esibizwa ngokuthi yi-executive committee
ezobheka ukusebenza komkhandlu imihla ngemihla kanti futhi
izokwakhiwa ngamalungu ayisishiyagalombili. Kuzoba khona namanye-ke
amakomidi afana namakomidi okuqondisa izigwegwe, namakomidi lapho
ungacela khona kubhekwe ukuthi isigwebo onikwe sona
ngesinobulungiswa yini.
Umkhandlu uzokwazi ukuthi ube nomuntu ozobhalisa bonke labo abakhona
ohlwini, esimbiza ngokuthi yi-registrar. Lo nobhala omkhulu nguyena
ozokhipha amagama awo wonke umuntu owelaphayo lapha eNingizimu
Afrika khona ezoba khona ohlwini, ukuze ukwazi ukusebenza
ngokwemvume yalapha eNingizimu Afrika. Lo nobhala omkhulu kuzofanele
ukuthi agcine nezimali zomkhandlu ukuze izimali zawo zisebenze
kahle. Kuzofanele futhi azi ukuthi kunomthetho kahulumeni obizwa
ngokuthi yi-Public Finance Management Act azosebenza ngaphansi
kwawo.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 51
Sengigcina-ke ngithanda ukubonga kakhulu abelaphi bendabuko
ngomsebenzi omkhulu abawenzile. Siyazi ukuthi abantu, ngaphambi
kokuthi bafinyelele kodokotela, baqala kubo abelaphi bendabuko bese
bedlulela kodokotela. Kanjalo futhi bayasuka kodokotela babuyele
kini, niphinde nibasize. Yilokho-ke esifuna ukuthi kuqhubeke
kwenzeke lapha eNingizimu Afrika ukuthi kube khona ukusebenzisana
phakathi kodokotela besilungu nabelaphi bakithi bendabuko.
UKhongolose uyawesekela kakhulu lo Mthethosivivinywa. Uthanda futhi
nokwazisa nabantu bomphakathi wonke ukuthi abaqale bahloniphe
abelaphi bendabuko njengabantu abasebenzela umphakathi kakhulu.
Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of Zulu speech follows.)
[Ms M N S MANANA: Chairperson, I thank the Minister of Health and
the hon members of Parliament for this opportunity to say a word on
this Bill. Firstly let me state that I accept and support this Bill.
Traditional healers have been looked down upon for a long time. They
were not recognised. The public also looked down upon them.
time immemorial traditional healers
Since
have been there – since before
the arrival of Western doctors. They are the ones who have carried
on treating our people as they have continued up to now. For many
years they have been looked down upon and
called witches. When
seeking their help you subjected yourself to criticism and would be
regarded as foolish for not having consulted the Western doctors.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 52
The Minister of Health was aware that the health sector would not be
complete without the inclusion of traditional healers. That is the
reason why she found it correct to have this Act. I would like to
thank the Minister of Health for seeing that the time has come for
the traditional healers to be respected and to be placed correctly
where they deserve to be. Those who seek their help should feel
comfortable and not be looked down upon. I would like thank you
traditional healers for the good work you have done in treating
South Africans, as you are continuing to do. Be happy, traditional
healers! [Applause.]
Traditional healing has long been used in society, and our ancestors
used it. The function of traditional healers is crucial and their
technology is complex. The African National Congress says that the
time has come for the traditional healers to work in terms of the
South African Act.
This Bill will create the interim national council for a period of
three years in consultation with the Minister of Health. This
council will function like the nursing, HPCSA and other similar
councils.
The functions of this council will be to inform the public about its
existence; to ensure the highest standards of treatment in the
traditional sector; to protect community rights - their patients; to
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 53
further their knowledge; to ensure compliance of members; and to
protect patients from abuse by traditional healers.
The functions of this council shall be: to conduct investigations if
there are complaints from the community; to reach agreement with
traditional healers about their scope of work; to make regulations
for the council; to purchase council’s property under the name of
the council; to advise the Minister of Health about issues; to pass
regulations related to traditional healers; to keep the register of
all traditional healers in South Africa - every person who is a
traditional healer must be on the register so that one feels that
one is a traditional healer; to appoint employees for the council;
to consult with other councils like the HPCSA; to consult with the
Minister on important community issues; to administer the council’s
funds and annual membership funds.
Let me state the composition of the council. The council shall be
made up of 22 members. The Minister of Health shall elect a
chairperson and the deputy will be elected by the council members.
The provinces will be represented by a member who is a traditional
healer with five years’experience after qualifying as a traditional
healer. The three members will represent the community’s interests.
We shall also have members from the Health Profession Council and
Pharmacy Council. There will be a member from the Health Department.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 54
Let me state that the persons who are supposed to serve on the
council must be citizens of South Africa. It is not possible for one
to be a member of the council if one no longer resides in South
Africa or if one is found to be mentally ill, as contemplated in
Section 1 of the Mental Care Act of 2002. If one wants to withdraw
one’s membership, one submits an application. One’s membership could
be cancelled if one misbehaves, and if one dies one loses one’s
membership. There are certain types of conduct which can cause one
to lose one’s
membership: if one leaves South Africa; is no longer
a South African citizen; is convicted without the option of paying a
fine; is a member of a political party, a member of Parliament, a
provincial legislature or local council.
This council shall meet twice a year unless the chairperson wishes
to call further meetings. The council shall hold the executive
committee responsible for the functioning of the council and shall
comprise eight members. There shall be other committees, like the
disciplinary committee and reviewing committee, where one can apply
for a review of whether a sentence passed was fair.
The council shall have a registrar who shall be responsible for
registering all members. The registrar shall keep all names of
traditional healers in South Africa so that they function in
accordance with the law. The registrar shall be responsible for the
administration of the funds of the council for the smooth running of
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 55
the council. The registrar shall acquaint himself with Public
Finance Management Act.
In conclusion, I would like to thank all traditional healers for
their good work. We are aware that before people approach doctors
they first consult traditional healers. They approach you after
consulting doctors, and you help them. It is therefore our intention
to create an atmosphere of co-operation between doctors and
traditional healers in South Africa.
The African National Congress supports this Bill. We therefore
appeal to community members to respect traditional healers as people
working tirelessly for the community. Thank you. [Applause.]]
Ms N C NKABINDE: Madam Chair and hon members, the Bill before us
seeks to address the legal and regulatory vacuum that has existed
since the advent of democracy with regard to traditional health
care. The fact is that vast numbers of South African citizens trust
and make use of traditional healers. In fact, many would seek the
advice of a traditional healer whilst consulting a Western, orthodox
health practitioner. This reality places a moral and constitutional
responsibility upon government properly to regulate traditional
health care.
The benefits of the legal framework created by the Bill fall into
two broad categories. Firstly, there are the benefits for the
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 56
population. A regulated traditional health profession ensures that
South Africans can now make use of these health care services with
confidence and that poor or dangerous treatment is legally
impermissible. The recognition of traditional health care will
further enable patients to claim from their medical scheme for their
treatment.
Secondly, the Bill will provide benefits for the traditional
healers. With legal regulation comes financial security. Traditional
healers will now be able to standardise professional and ethical
conduct and it will also have those who bring this profession into
disrepute disciplined, sanctioned or even removed from the
profession.
There are also overall health benefits for the country as a whole.
Greater interaction between traditional healers and the rest of the
health care profession will hopefully lead to more advanced and
comprehensive health care solutions. Already there is a certain
level of interaction between traditional healers and the medical
research council. Further future collaborations will perhaps uncover
new cures or treatments for some of the persistent health challenges
facing the country.
The disease burden in South Africa is huge. We can, therefore,
simply no longer afford to exclude or dismiss a large group of
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 57
healers. Consequently the UDM supports this Bill. I thank you.
[Applause.]
Ms R J MASHIGO: Hon Chairperson, hon Ministers, members . . . le
lona dingaka tsa rona ko godimo koo, re a le dumedisa. [. . . as
well as our traditional healers up there, we greet you.]
The traditional health practitioners are part of the communities
within which they practice, and as a result know and understand the
people and the traditions of the communities.
Dingaka tsa rona tsa setso di tswa ga lowe. Go tloga kgale batho ba
bantsho ba ne ba etela dingaka tsa rona tsa setso go batla kalafi ya
malwetse a mantsintsi a re golang a ntse a le teng. Lebaka la
bothapi jwa bophirima, le dingaka tsa rona tsa ditshipi, bo dirile
gore dingaka tsa rona tsa setso di se tlhole di tlotliwa; di
gatakiwe, di nyadiwe mme mo godimo ga moo di tsewe jaaka e kete ga
di itse sepe. Nako dingwe di tsewa jaaka batho ba ba sa felelang
sentle.
Mokgatlho wa rona wa ANC, ka lenaneo la ona la Reconstruction and
Development, o ikemiseditse gore o lebisise ditshotlo tseo dingaka
tsa rona tsa setso di ntseng di tshela mo go tsona. Mme ka lona
lenaneo le, o tla dira gore tlotlo e boele mo dingakeng tsa rona tsa
setso ka mananeo a a tla beng a dirisiwa gore tlotlo ego e boe. Re
ka gakologelwa gore mo poung ya pulo ya Palamente ka Mopresidente,
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 58
Mopresidente o buile gore: (Translation of Tswana paragraphs
follows.)
[Our traditional doctors are from ancient times. Black people have
been visiting traditional doctors to seek medical help for various
diseases that affected our people. Western influences have caused
our doctors to lose respect, to have their rights suppressed, to be
undermined, and on top of that, to be regarded as if they know
nothing. Sometimes they are regarded as people who are not well
mentally.
Our organisation, the ANC, with its Reconstruction and Development
Programme, intends to investigate the hardships that our traditional
doctors still experience. Through these programmes our traditional
doctors will get the necessary respect by implementing programmes
that will bring back the respect of traditional doctors. We will
remember that at the opening of Parliament, our State President
stated that:]
We will continue to do what is necessary to improve the programmes
that promote a better health profile of the nation as a whole.
Therefore the Traditional Health Practitioners Bill does exactly
that. And in this discussion we will look at the qualifications and
the norms and standards of traditional health practitioners and
students. “Re tlo simolola ka go lebelela . . .” [Regarding
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 59
citizenship . . . ] . . . we will start looking. Only South African
citizens will be allowed to practise as traditional healers. “Fa re
tla mo” [Concerning] . . . age limit . . .
kamogelo mo go thwaseng . . .”
“ke gore dingwaga tsa
[That is admission age into
initiation . . . ] . . . the Bill will regulate the age requirements
for admission at any registered training institution for traditional
healers.
“Bathong, re utlwisiseng gore mo go tla bo go sa dire lefapha la tsa
kalafi fela . . .” [We must understand that it will not only be the
Department of Health . . . ] . . . that will be looking at the age
limits; we will be working in consultation.
Re tla bo re dirisana le Lefapha la Thuto, re dirisana gape le
Lefapha la Tlhabololo ya Loago ka gonne re a itse ro rotlhe gore
ngwana ke ngwana e bile o tshwanetse kwa sekolong, a kere? Jaaka ka
batsadi re tshwanetse gore re bone gore re rotloetsa bana ba rona ka
tsela e e tshwanetseng mme fa ba fitlha mo dingwageng tse ba ka yang
go thwasa ka tsona, ba ye. Jaanong go tlo tshwanela gore e nne
boikarabelo jwa rona setšhaba sotlhe le dingaka tsa rona tsa setso,
gore re bone gore re tlotla dingwaga tse ngwana a tshwanetseng gore
a amogelwe kwa go thwaseng. Re se ke ra tsoga fela jaaka nna ke le
motsadi, ngwana a lala a lela bosigo ke be ke re ngwana yo, o ne a
etetswe ke bontatemogolo wa koko wa ntatagwe ba re a ye go thwasa, a
nne ngaka. Dilo tse di tshwanang le tseo re tshwanetse gore re di
tlhokomele, re bone gore ngwana ke ngwana o tshwanetse go ya go
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 60
thwasa ka nako e a tshwanetseng go thwasa ka yona. (Translation of
Tswana paragraph follows.)
[We will be working with the Department of Education and the
Department of Social Development because we know that children
should be in school, is that not so? As parents we should encourage
our children in a proper way so that when they reach the proper age
they should go to the initiation school. It should be our
responsibility as a nation and traditional doctors to ensure that
our children go to initiation school at a proper age. We should not
just wake up one morning and declare that the child was crying the
whole evening because he had been visited by the grandparents of the
grandmother of the father who said that he should go to initiation
school. We should be careful about these matters and ensure that
children go to initiation school at the correct time.]
“Fa tla mo katisong . . .” [Concerning training . . .] . . .
we
know that students of traditional healing live with their tutors in
their houses and during that time they are being observed ”gore e ka
nna dingaka na.” [. . . to determine whether they can become
traditional healers.]
After a certain period they are assessed and qualify as
practitioners. We know that training, so far, is not standardised
and “molaotheo wa rona o tla re thusa go lebisisa tseo. [our Bill
will help us to take care of that.]
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 61
The knowledge of the availability and influence . . . “ya dingaka
tsa setso, le kitso ya dingaka tsa rona tsa setso re ka e lemoga ka
ditsela di le dintsi. [. . . of traditional healers as well as the
knowledge of our traditional healers, can be realised in many ways].
“Ka 1978 kwa [In 1978 at] the Alma Mater Conference the World Health
Organisation suggested that traditional healers should spread
curative as well as preventative help as part of primary health
care.
At Madadeni hospital in KwaZulu-Natal chronic patients receive their
regular medicines from traditional healers in their districts rather
than tramping to the hospital for their regular medication. These
inyangas and sangomas hold regular monthly meetings with the doctors
at the hospital. We also know that under the ANC government, the
National Department of Health has established a section “go na le
lefapha le lengwe mo lefapheng la rona la bosetšhaba la kalafi moo”
[a department in our national department of health] where
traditional healers have a section as a way of integrating this
section into the public health system.
According to the South African Primary Health Care Handbook,
traditional healers generally hold positions of respect within the
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 62
communities and are looked up to for guidance on health matters and
other issues important to the people.
Re a itse gore go le go ntsi batho ba leba dingaka tsa setso gore ba
ba eletse. Le dingaka tsa rona tsa kgale, pele go tla tsa kwa
bophirima, re ne re itse gore dikgosi tsa rona di ne di gakololwa ke
dingaka tsa setso. Re ka nopola bo kgosi Shaka le dingaka tse
dingwe. Di ne di na le dingaka tsa setso mo gaufi ga tsona gore di
ba gakolole gonne di ne di tshepa katiso ya tsona. Ke tla mo go ba
tlabeng ba ruta ba e tlabeng e le . . . (Translation of Tswana
paragraph follows.)
[We know that many people consult traditional doctors for advice.
Traditional doctors also advised our kings before Europeans arrived
here. King Shaka and others are some who used traditional doctors’
services. They all had traditional doctors nearby so that these
doctors could advise them, and they trusted their advice.
Traditional tutors who will be . . . ]
. . .
qualified persons to teach students at recognised
institutions will be regulated according to this Act. They are known
to be reputable inyangas . . .
. . . ba ba itseng gore ke dingaka tse di itseng kalafi tota. Ke ka
moo e leng bone ba rutang. Ba a tlotliwa mo godimo ga moo ka gonne
ke dingaka tse di tshepiwang, tse di filweng marapo a gore e ka nna
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 63
bafatlhosi ba setso. [. . . who know that these doctors are able to
heal. That is why they are the ones
teaching. They are respected
because they are trusted doctors because they have been given the
status of being healers of the nation.]
They use indigenous languages for their training. “Ka tsela eo,
tsalano ya bona le baithuti ba bona e dira gore go nne le tikologo e
e monate ya thuto.” [Therefore, their relationship with their
students creates an environment Molaotlhomo wa rona, mo godimo
conducive to education.]
“Molaotlhomo wa rona, mo godimo ga moo” [Our Bill, on top of that]
discusses conditions relating to continuing education. Motlotlegi
Ngculu o buile gore thuto e tsamaya e ntse e fetoga, a kere? [Hon
Ngculu said that education is always changing, is it not so?]
The Bill further discusses these conditions relating to continuing
education where the council “e e ntseng e tlhalosiwa ke motlotlegi
Manana” [which hon Manana was explaining] will from time to time
prescribe conditions relating to education and training to be
undergone by persons registered in terms of this Act in order to
retain such registration.
The council will also be looking at the nature and extent of
continuing education and training to be undergone by persons
registered in terms of this Act. Again the criteria for the
registration of continuing education and training courses and
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 64
education institutions offering such courses will also be looked at
by the council and from time to time . . . ba tla be ba lelebela
gore nare ba santse ba le mo tseleleng e ba ka tsweletsang thuto ka
yona. [. . . they will be checking if they are still on the right
track of improving education.]
Jaanong re tla mo go . . .
[Concerning . . . ] . . . the fees for
the services rendered . . . eo e bothata . . . [. . . that is a
difficult one . . .] . . . “because we know that fees for services
rendered by traditional practitioners, definitely need to be
regulated by the Act. Payment . . . ‫״‬re a itsi, ka tsela yeo ba
sepelago ba patella ka gona ge ba etswa kalafing ye ya dingaka tse
tsa rena tsa setso. Ga re tsebe gabotse gore go patelwa bokae, ka
gore nako ye nngwe batho ba bao babotsa gore aowa ke go thusitse
sepela, ke a leboga, solanka o ka fihla o fola. Ke gore motho yoo,
ga a patella selo. E be go sepela, go sepela yo mongwe a be are ke
nyaka dikgomo tse ka, go sepele go sepele yo mongwe a re ke nyaka
dithousand tse di kaka. Bjalo ka tsela yeo re a bona gore dingaka
tsa rona molao o a nyakega gore o kgone go laola gore batho ba ge ba
swanetse gore ba tlile go lena gore le ba tuse ka gore re a tseba
gore le a thusa, ba tsebe gore ditšhelete tše di sepela bjang. Re
tla mo ka tsela yeo dilo di swanetšego gore di bereke ka gona.
[. . . we know that they pay the traditional healers for their
services. We do not know exactly how much is paid, because at times
they are excused from paying as long as they get well. It means that
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 65
this service was for free. Some would request cattle as payment and
some would request thousands of rands as you proceed. That is why we
think there should be an Act to regulate this. People should know
how much should be paid for these services. We do acknowledge that
you assist them.
We are here for the smooth running of these services.]
Traditional healing is sociocultural. Practitioners should uphold
the norms and standards of the communities “ba tshwanetse gore ba
itse gore fa ba ya kwa motseng oo, molao wa teng o tsamaya jang.”
[They have to know the norms and standards of a village they are
visiting.]
As students they should be trained in professional ethics and
community norms. We also know that traditional healers use
medicines. We should also be interested in seeing . . . [Time
expired.]
Ms F BATYI: Hon Chairperson and hon members of the House, “ndibulisa
amagqirha ethu.” [I greet our traditional healers].
The current proposed Traditional Health Practitioners Bill will
impact quite profoundly on the current health system, to say the
least. It will be the first time that the practising of traditional
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 66
healing will be legally recognised, despite the controversial
debates surrounding the issue.
In a country such as South Africa, where the majority of the people
have consulted a traditional healer, legalisation of this provision
does not need serious consideration. Most rural communities consult
traditional healers.
Training, registration and legislation of these healers can only be
to the benefit of all South Africans. With registration, the
traditional healing practices can be monitored, and those who claim
to be healers without any training and accreditation can be stopped
from causing any harm.
Quite frankly, South Africa is experiencing a national HIV/Aids
crisis, and until there is a cure we need to use all the help we can
get, provided the people’s right to good medicine is secured.
However, the following issues need serious consideration: resources
and infrastructure need to be made available for testing of
traditional medicine, instead of continued ignorance and prejudice
against traditional healing practices; the issue of traditional
surgeons needs to be made clear, as the Bill does provide clarity on
this specific issue.
Although the Bill has set some minimum standards for the
qualifications of traditional healers, the issue of experience needs
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 67
to be addressed. Many traditional healers have years of experience,
but no formal training. The ID supports the Traditional Health
Practitioners Bill. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mnu S J NJIKELANA: Sihlalo nani baPhathiswa namasekela, malungu
abekekileyo nani bagula ngokufa okumhlophe, abo bangcwaliswe
yimilowa nabakwelemimoya, sithi siyacamagusha. Makube chosi, kube
hele! [Uwele-wele.]
UKhongolozi unkqenkqeze phambili ekwakheni lo Mthetho uYilwayo
ngenxa yoxanduva awazithwalisa lona, lokukhokela abantu baseMzantsi
Afrika ukuya kumpilo-ntle. Unyango lwemveli mandithi ludala
kwiAfrika iphela, yaye abantu baphile ngalo kwihlabathi lonke.
Masingalibali ukuba nangona izangoma namaxhwele enegalelo elikhulu
elinjalo ekuphiliseni uluntu, akwanefuthe elikhulu eluntwini ngenxa
yale misebenzi yawo. Ngokuqinisekileyo, imiqathango yokohlwaya
izaphula-mthetho ezivonya-vonyana nempilo yabantu iyafuneka.
Kwezi ntsuku siphila kuzo, imiqathango nemigaqo emakusetyenzwe ngayo
empilweni jikelele sele ibunjwe ngendlela echubekileyo engena gingci
kwinkqubo kunye nemithetho elawulayo kule mihla. Lo Mthetho uYilwayo
uhleli ekhondweni usiphathela iindlela zokohlwaya abaphuma
endleleni.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 68
Xa sisamkela futhi sibhabhatiza unyango lwemveli, sibandakanya
ukuvuma ukohlwaya izangoma ezonayo. Oko kuthetha ukuba abagula
ngokufa okumhlophe baza kukhuseleka kungcikivo nokunyenjwa
abakufumana emaphepheni akugwengulayo ukuqokelelwa kweendaba.
Ndalatha ikakhulu xa kupaphashwa izinto ezifana nee-muti killings –
ngelikaJoji - ngala maphephandaba sinawo kwezi ntsuku.
Xa siwuqaphela, lo Mthetho uYilwayo utyibela ungene nzulu, unabile
kunjalonje, xa usiza kweli cala lokohlwaya izaphuli-mthetho
neendlela zokuphanda kwa ezi zaphuli-mthetho.
Kukho ibhunga eliza kumiselwa phantsi kwalo Mthetho uYilwayo. Eminye
yemisebenzi yalo kukohlwaya abo bonileyo xeshikweni befunyaniswa
benetyala. Emasikuqaphele kukuba lo msebenzi wenziwa zizangoma
nezanuse ezikweli bhunga, eziza kube zikhethwe kwa zezinye
kuzwelonke. Loo nto ke iqinisekisa ukuba umcimbi uza kube
uchotshelwe ziingcali eziwaziyo.
Kwalapha kukwaqulethwe iindlela-ndlela zokuchophela nokuphicotha
ityala ngalinye elisenkundleni ngendlela eyiyo. Ngokunjalo izohlwayo
eziza kungqamana nobukrakra kunye nobunzima betyala nesono ngasinye
zikrozisiwe ukwenzela ukuba abo bone kancinane bagwetywe ngendlela
eyahlukileyo kwabagcwele ubugulukudu obugqithisileyo.
Lo Mthetho uYilwayo uthi xa kuphandwa abakrokrelwayo ngobuqhetseba
makuphandwe ngendlela efanelekileyo. Nditsho ke nokuba kukho izinto
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 69
ekufuneka ziphengululwe zikhangelwe, zide mhlawumbi zithathwe zibe
selugcinweni lwabomthetho. Yonke le ndlela kuza kusetyenzwa ngayo
iqanyangelwe yimigaqo ebonisa indlela emakuchankcathwe ngayo ngabo
baya kube besenza uphando olo.
Mayiqhwatyelwe izandla le nkqubo kuba isekhondweni elibonisa
intlonipho yamalungelo abantu kunye namakhaya neendawo abasebenzela
kuzo. Yaye asiyithandabuzi into yokuba u-ANC uyixhasa kakhulu le
ndawo yokuhlonitshwa kwamalungelo abantu.
Ukubaluleka kwendlela iingxelo zophando emazenziwe ngayo kukwachazwe
ngokucacileyo, ikakhulu xa lowo ebephandwa efunyanwa enetyala.
Masiqaphele ukuba xa isigwebo sisihla kumoni sukube kunyembelekile,
yaye kungasemnandanga. Kungoko kunyanzelekile ukuba indlela
ekusetyenzwa ngayo inonotshelwe ukuze kungabikho sikrokro.
Okunye okuqulethwe apha sisagweba esingqamene nemigulukudu
namatshijolo azenza amagqirha nezanuse, abe engengawo. Masikhumbule
ukuba inde yaye inzima indlela ehanjwa ngabagula kukufa okumhlophe
phambi kokuba bavunywe kuthiwe ngamagqirha apheleleyo. [Uwelewele.]
Aba batyhutyha-tyhutyha eli lookhokho bexoka besithi bathwasa phi
phi phi nakwimilambo esingayaziyo, into abaphela beyenza
kukulimazana nabantu, bexuba amayeza abangawaziyo, bangxale
abamsulwa ngeetyhefu, bashiye izigede baqengqe ugodo. [Kwaqhwatywa.]
Mawethu, zidwesha nani zidwangube, masiwugxininise umahluko phakathi
kwamagqirha, amaxhwele nezanuse kwelinye icala, kunye nobugqwirha
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 70
kwelinye. Kwaye mayicace okwekat’ emhlophe ehlungwini ukuba uninzi
lwabanyanga ngokwemvelo lunyanisekile yaye luphehlelelwe
ngabaleleyo, yaye umthetho luwubambile. Gqwidi ke ngoku zizingcoli
zemiguvela ezisebenzisa esi siphiwo ukwenza ubuqhophololo
nokungcolileyo.
Kambe ke isimnyama esi sona besisetyenziswa ngabanye bethu ngexesha
besizabalaza, ukuba siphephe ukubanjwa nokugqogqwa kwezithuthi
ngamapolisa kwiindawo ezithile. [Uwelewele.] Ukuvalelwa ngaphandle
kokuvela enkundleni bekungemnandanga, futhi nentelezi wena
besingekude kuyo. [Kwahlekwa.]
Xa sifakela imiqathango yokohlwaya kulo Mthetho uYilwayo, ngenye
indlela sibuyisa isidima nesithozela esavuthululwa sagonyamelwa
ngabo baxobula basixutha ubuntu bethu. Nditsho ndisithi noluntu luza
kuba nethemba sisiqinisekiso sokuba asiwamkeli nje amagqirha
namaxhwele singabeki miqathango yokuwohlwaya xa onile.
Nditsho mna ke ne-World Health Organisation, kwimizamo yayo
yokubuyisela unyango lwemvelo kwisimo sangaphambili, umba
wokuhlonipha nemiqathango yokusebenza ngendlela ayiyilibalanga. Oko
ke kwandlalela ukuba kwakhiwe imiqathango nemigaqo yokohlwaya. Ngako
oko ke liphuma litsolile elithi, kwabo bakrokrayo bengathembanga,
makhe bazanezise. Inyathi ibuzwa kwabaphambili. Nantsi i-World
Health Organisation, mayibuzwe.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 71
Ezi zohlwayo nemigaqo idweliswe kulo Mthetho uYilwayo ibukeka
ngakumbi xa ichankcatha phezu kovulindlela wokuba makuphandwe
kuqala. Gqirha, sanuse nexhwele elikrokrelwayo kunyanzelekile ukuba
liphandwe kuqala futhi ngendlela efanelekileyo enganukunezi sidima
samntu. Iingcali ezingooPotter noo-Ogden zithi nangona imithetho
yokuziphatha ineengcambu ezondele kwiimbali zoluntu, iye yaguquka
kuba amaxesha nawo ayahamba, kutsho kucace ukuba nathi masimamele
amaxesha esiphila kuwo.
Lo Mthetho uYilwayo unika nothathatha walapha eMzantsi Afrika
ilungelo lokufaka isikhalazo kweli bhunga liza kumiselwa xa lo
mthetho sele usebenza. Phofu ke, nabo abagula yingulo emhlophe baza
kube bekhuselekile xa kufakwa ezi zikhalazo kuba ityala liza kubekwa
enkundleni xa liphandiwe kwaza kweziwa nobungqina ngendlela
efanelekileyo. Apho ke asihanahanisi, kuba siqinisekisa
ekuhlonipheni amalungelo abantu, nto leyo uKhongolozi norhulumente
amkhokelayo ayimele ngolona hlobo.
Yintoni esiza kuyizuza kulo Mthetho uYilwayo? Ngokuqinisekileyo
akusobe kuphinde kuthiwe abanyanga ngokwemveli baza kwenza
utyhatyhiwe bangohlwaywa. Apha kuzanywa ngeyona ndlela ukuqinisekisa
ukuba iinkonzo zonyango lwemveli ziqhutywa ngendlela efanelekileyo
nekhuselekileyo, kambe ekwachubeke ngolona hlobo.
Unyango lwesiNtu lude lwabe luze kuphehlelewa nasePalamente, nto ke
leyo iqinisekisa kwanabo bangaqondiyo, abakrokrayo kwa nabo
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 72
banyembayo. UKhongolozi wayidandalazisa phandle kwangonyaka ka-1994
injongo yakhe yokuba abone amagqirha, amaxhwele nezanuse zamkelwe
ngokwasemthethweni yaye zibe yinxalenye yeenkonzo zempilo jikelele.
Apha ke sibandakanya nabo bajongene namasiko nabafunde benezinwe
zokuzalisa emakhaya, ukubelekisa ke ngamanye amagama. Kambe ke,
sisanyuka induli kuba kaloku inkxaso yoluntu ifuneka nangaphezulu,
ngakumbi xa lo mthetho sele usebenza.
Torhwana mnye umba, kukuba unyango lwemveli luchankcatha phezu
kwamasiko nezithethe zesiNtu, nto ke leyo eza kukhe ibe
namagingxigingxi kwiinkqubo zikarhulumente zale mihla, isi-modern
ngamanye amagama.
Sihlalo nani bakowethu ndivala ngelithi umntu ngamnye kweli
lookhokho bethu unoxanduva nomsebenzi omkhulu wokuqinisekisa ukuba
xa sele ugqityiwe ukuqulunqwa lo mthetho, sele usebenza,
mawungathintelwa ukuze unike iinkonzo zonyango lwemveli indawo yalo
efanelekileyo kwisizwe sethu siphela.
Namhlanje siyavuya ukubona nabamhlophe abanokugula okumhlophe
bekunye nathi, ukwenzela ukuba siqinisekise nakwilizwe lonke ukuba
la ma-300 000 yabo ekufanele ukuba azibandakanye nathi ekunyangeni
abantu aza kube ekunye nathi ngenxa yalo mthetho. Makudede ubumnyama
kuvele ukukhanya!
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 73
AMALUNGU AHLONIPHEKILEYO: Camagu!
Mnu S J NJIKELANA: Sicamagusha kwabakwelemimoya!
AMALUNGU AHLONIPHEKILEYO: Camagu!
Mnu S J NJIKELANA: Makube chosi, kube hele! Enkosi, Sihlalo.
[Kwaqhwatywa.](Translation of Xhosa speech follows.)
[Mr S J NJIKELANA: Chairperson, hon Ministers and Deputies, hon
members and you who have the traditional calling, those who are
solemnized by the forefathers and the ancestors, we say we hail
thee. Let there be peace, and prosperity! [Interjections.]
The ANC is leading in the formulation of this Bill, as a result of
its commitment of leading the people of South Africa to better
health. The traditional method of healing was in existence in the
whole of Africa long ago, and is used worldwide to cure people.
Let us not forget that as much as sangomas and traditional healers
make a great contribution to healing people, they also have a great
influence on the community due to their work. Certainly, we do need
stringent conditions of punishing those criminals who mess up
people’s health.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 74
These days we are living in, rules and conditions of practice
governing the health sector in general has been formed in a
civilized manner which fits in well in the programme and regulations
of these days. This Bill is on the right track; it gives us ways of
dealing with those who do not conform.
When we accept that we approve of traditional healing, we should at
the same time acknowledge punishment to the sangomas who are
transgressing. This means that those who have the traditional
calling will be protected from the ill treatment and the rebuke they
receive from the newspapers, which vaguely collect news about their
practice. I am referring especially to when the newspapers we have
these days publish things like, “the muti killings,” in English.
When we look at this Bill, we see that it is very intensive and
broad when it comes to punishing the transgressors and ways of
investigating them.
A council is going to be formed under this Bill. One of its duties
is to punish those who have transgressed when they are found guilty.
What we should know is that this duty is going to be performed by
sangomas and fortune-tellers in this council who will be elected
nationally by others.
This ensures that this matter is in the hands
of experts who knows it very well.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 75
It also contains different ways of presiding over and trying each
case before the court in a proper way. At the same time, punishments
are going to be in line with the seriousness and gravity of each
case and each transgression as stipulated, so that those who commit
less serious transgressions should be sentenced differently from
those who are full of corruption. This Bill states that when those
suspected of fraud are investigated the investigation should be
proper. I mean even if some things have to be searched, and maybe
confiscated by the police. The procedure to be followed by those
conducting the investigation is emphasised in the rules of
procedure.
Let us clap our hands for this procedure as it is in line with
showing respect for people’s rights, their homes and their places of
practice. And we do not doubt that the ANC is fully supporting the
respect of human rights.
The importance of how the investigation reports are to be formulated
is explained clearly, especially when the one who was being
investigated is convicted.
We should note that when the
transgressor is being sentenced it is because there is no other
choice, and it is not nice. That is why it is compulsory that the
procedures should be followed carefully so that there should be no
uncertainty.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 76
Encompassed in here is the sentence that deals directly with
criminals and nonentities who pretend to be traditional healers and
traditional doctors, whilst they are not. Let us recall that people
who have the traditional calling go a long way that is very
difficult before they get ordained as fully fledged traditional
practitioners. [Applause.] Those who go all over our forefathers’
land claiming that they heeded the traditional call at very far
unknown rivers, end up hurting people by mixing medicines they do
not even know, and by forcing innocent people to drink this poison,
they leave people hurt and injured and others dead. [Applause.]
Compatriots and hon members, let us emphasise the difference between
traditional doctors and traditional healers on the one side, and
witchcraft on the other. And let it be crystal clear that the
majority of those who heal traditionally are honest and blessed by
the forefathers, and that they stick to the rule. Suddenly now there
are evil criminals who misuse this good talent in doing their
fraudulent, dirty tricks.
In actual fact the isimnyama (camouflage medicine) was used by some
of us during the time of our struggle, to avoid being arrested and
raided by the police on vehicles at certain places. [Interjections.]
Detention without trial was not a nice thing, and the use of
intelezi (battlefield medicine) was just handy. [Laughter.] When we
include conditions of punishment in this Bill, we are bringing back
the dignity which was violently taken away by those who regarded our
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 77
humanity with no respect. I mean even the community will have trust
and confidence in the assurance that we do not only accept
traditional doctors and traditional healers without conditions of
punishment when they transgress.
I mean even the World Health Organisation in its attempts to bring
back the traditional way of healing to its original form, regard the
issue of respect and conditions of proper practice as important.
This paves the way for formulating conditions and procedures of
punishment. Therefore it is clearly stated that those who have
doubts and mistrust others, let them satisfy themselves. If you do
not know, you should ask those with experience. Here is the World
Health Organisation, it can be asked.
The rules and punishment as stipulated in this Bill become more
interesting when they are based on investigation, as a point of
departure. Traditional doctors and traditional healers who are
suspected have to be investigated first, and that must be done
without undermining anybody’s dignity. The experts, Potter, Ogden
and others say, as much as the foundation of the rules of selfindependency is based on human history, it has changed due to the
changing times; it becomes clear then, that we have to adapt to the
times we are living in.
This Bill gives everybody in South Africa the right to lodge a
complaint with the council, which is going to be established when
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 78
this law is in operation. In fact, even those who have the
traditional calling would be protected when a complaint has been
lodged, because the case would only go to court after it has been
investigated and evidence has been produced in a proper way. We are
just bluffing about that, because we are very strict regarding human
rights, which is what the ANC and the ANC-led government are good
custodians of.
What are we going to benefit from this Bill? Certainly, the
traditional healers will never again do as they please without being
punished. Here we are trying our best to make sure that traditional
services are performed in a proper, safe and most civilized way.
Traditional healing has been accepted by Parliament, something which
assures even those who do not understand, those who doubt, and those
who criticise. The ANC voiced it even in 1994 that its aim is to see
traditional doctors and traditional healers legally accepted as part
of the health services throughout. Here we also include those in
their line of practice who deal with tradition, who due to
their
experience have gained the skills of mid-wives. There is still a lot
to be done, and the community support is needed more especially when
this Act comes into operation.
There is only one issue, and that is that traditional healing should
be based on traditions and customs, something which will have
hiccups in government’s modern programme.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 79
Chairperson, brothers and sisters, let me conclude by saying that
every one of us in this land of our forefathers, have the
responsibility and the daunting task of ensuring that, after the Act
is formulated and is in operation, it should not be blocked so that
it gives our traditional healing services its rightful place in the
nation in its totality.
Today we are happy to see that even white people need the
traditional call with us, so that we ensure even to the whole world
that the 300 000 who are supposed to associate themselves with us in
healing people, they would be with us due to this Act. Let the
darkness vanish, let there be light!
HON MEMBERS: Thank you!
Mr S J NJIKELANA: We thank the ancestors!
HON MEMBERS: Thank you!
Mr S J NJIKELANA: Let there be peace and prosperity! [Applause.]]
Mrs C DUDLEY: Chair, the ACDP recognises the need for the regulation
of the traditional health sector and supports efforts to research
and develop sound and ethical natural health solutions. Attempts to
bring
African
indigenous
knowledge
into
the
mainstream
are
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 80
commendable and necessary to ensure that this body of knowledge is
not lost simply because it is not adequately researched, recorded
and codified.
A council of 22 members will exist for the purpose of ensuring
standard
ethical
conduct
for
practising
traditional
health.
The
Bill, however, does not specify the minimum requirements, training
or standards for recognition as a traditional health practitioner,
although it is clear that those not registered in terms of the Act
will not be able to practise.
Previously, educational requirements weren’t necessary when a person
was called to practise traditional medicine, and when a traditional
healer
graduated
no
certificate
was
issued,
yet
proof
of
qualifications on registration will now be required. How these and
other issues will be worked out is rather unclear and cause for some
concern.
Since 1997 the Medical Research Council and others have been working
on a traditional medicines database with a view to setting safety
standards for herbal remedies. This is encouraging. There is still a
long way to go, however, if the WHO concerns are to be allayed and
criteria to support worldwide use are to be met.
The protection of protected or endangered plants and animals is
another area of concern, which the Bill does not address, and nature
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 81
reserves are vulnerable as unlimited amounts of protected species
are
used
with
apparent
immunity.
Regulation
of
this
industry
constitutes an enormous challenge for the Department of Health and
medical aids will face tremendous difficulties, but patients will be
able
to
access
medical
treatment
of
their
own
choosing
with
a
greater chance of being protected from charlatans.
In the interests of consumer protection, however, the ACDP is unable
to unconditionally support this Bill and will therefore abstain. We
share concerns that the Bill is premature in many aspects and we
urge you, hon Minister, to ensure that critical issues are attended
to in order to avoid potential problems. We are of the opinion that
further broad consultation will be necessary in order to honestly
serve the best interests of the public. Thank you. [Time expired.]
Mr B E PULE: Madam Chair, allow me to congratulate the Department of
Health on the mere recognition that traditional health practitioners
have a role to play in our health system. For quite a number of
years
traditional
insignificant
role.
health
It
practitioners
is
an
were
irrefutable
relegated
fact
that
to
an
without
recognition and control of their practices, it would undoubtedly
spell a national calamity, as health is the business of the nation.
Like all other professions, their council will be in a position to
regulate the extent to which they operate, ensuring that traditional
health practice complies with universally accepted health care norms
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 82
and values. This would really be a milestone in the history of the
traditional health system. There are so many diseases that liaison
between
traditional
health
practitioners
and
other
health
professionals registered under different laws has to be promoted.
Rona re le UCDP molao o, re o nesetsa pula ka gore o tla thusa mo
mabakeng a le mantsi jaaka maloba go ne go fetisiwa molawana wa gore
motho yo o ratang go ntsha mpa a ka e ntsha. Jalo re itumelela gore
le fa re ne re ganana le molao o, go tla nna le thuto ya gore batho
ba ba batlang go dira jalo ba rutwe gore fa o bolaya ngwana o kgone
go somarela mmaagwe. Jalo UCDP e tshegetsa molao o. [Legofi.]
(Translation of Tswana paragraph follows.)
[We, as the UCDP, support this Bill because it will assist in many
instances, like when the Abortion Bill was passed. So, we are
pleased that even though we were against this Bill, there will be
lessons for the people who want to practise that and in order to do
that, they will be taught that to kill the baby you must be able to
spare the life of the mother. So, the UCDP supports this Bill.
[Applause.]]
Mr N T GODI: Deputy Chairperson and hon members, the PAC joins the
progressives and enlightened in supporting this Bill, and the
Minister of Health for her bold and farsighted leadership in this
regard. This Bill, coming ten years into the democratic
breakthrough, gives meaning to the consolidation of the national
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 83
democratic revolution. Colonialists did not only oppress and exploit
the African people, but sought to denigrate and wipe out the history
and cultural practices of the African people.
Everything European was supposed to be godly, and all things African
were regarded as devilish. It was in this context, therefore, that
traditional healing, practitioners and medicines were denigrated.
Owing to the cultural resilience of our people, the practice of
traditional healing has remained a practice of choice to millions of
our people.
The PAC sees the Bill as a restoration and a reaffirmation of our
humanity. The mainstreaming of traditional health practitioners will
go a long way in removing the colonial stigma that the majority of
our people have ignored. We do, however, accept that there will be
challenges in a number of areas in terms of configuration and
maintenance of norms and standards in the conventional sense. But
these should be seen within the broader picture.
With the enthusiastic assistance of the traditional leaders
themselves, it should be easier for the department to realise the
objectives of the Bill. It is indeed a great day today, as we roll
back one of the legacies of colonialism. The PAC supports the Bill.
Thank you. [Applause.]
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 84
Ms S RAJBALLY: Thank you, Madam Deputy Chair. Indigenous South
Africans have for years depended on traditional healers to manage
their health. The Minority Front respects this, but agrees with the
World Health Organisation on the quality and the quantity of the
medicines dispensed. We further note that there are approximately
200 000 traditional health practitioners in South Africa and that a
large majority of people in the rural areas frequently consult such
practitioners.
This sector needs to be managed, monitored and regulated by
legislation. We are grateful for the research compiled by the
various parties concerned in establishing the traditional medicines
database, Tramed. This will certainly contribute towards maintaining
the safety standards of herbal remedies. Who knows what the study of
plants and their healing properties could reveal - perhaps even the
cure to HIV/Aids or other epidemics. The Minority Front supports the
Bill in its efforts to ensure that South Africans, who consult
traditional practitioners, receive safe and adequate medicines.
The Bill further promotes the proliferation of traditional
practitioners through research, education and training in the field
concerned. Ensuring that measures are put in place to control the
registration, training, and practice of traditional health
practitioners would further ensure that our citizenry is obtaining
efficient and safe assistance.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 85
The Minority Front is, however, concerned as to how this legislation
will be implemented effectively and whether the traditional health
practitioners will be receptive to such legislation. The MF seeks a
healthy South Africa and thereby supports the Traditional Health
Practitioners Bill. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Setjhaba, theang tsebe le mmamele. Ntokolleng ke roke mmuso wa
tokoloho. Ke thoholetse dingaka tsa setso, ke bine mabinabine a pelo
ya ka. Maobeng, re ne re sa rere mmoho, hona maobeng, re ne re sa
etse dintho ka mmoho, empa kajeno, yena Mbeki, o fetotse mawa. A
hlokomela seabo sa dingaka tsa setso, a ba lokolla. Banna le basadi,
hetlang morao le bone dingaka tsa setso nakong ya kgatello. Maswabi
difahlehong tsa bona ese ho iphapanya.
Tjhe, ntho di fetohile. Banna le basadi bophelo ke ntlola-ntlole, e,
ke masiyasiyane mahlokalebelo, feela a re utlwa Tlatlamatjholo a re
romella boetapele ba ANC, botle ntho ke ho kgotswa. Kajeno ke bua ka
baetapele ba nang le lentswe, mmuso wa ba neha sebaka, tjhaba sa
nyakalla. Sa nyakalla sa bina thoko sa re “le rona re lokolohile,”
[Ditlatse.]
“Re bina tokoloho ka motlotlo, re a thwenya, re a
tantsa hle. Re re pele ya pele!”
Mmuso ke rona, mme he ha re ikotleng difuba. Dingaka tsa setso,
phuthullang difahleho tsa lona, le eme ka motlotlo le re “Viva
demokerasi, Viva ANC!” (Translation of Sotho paragraphs follows.)
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 86
[Nation, listen carefully. Allow me to praise the democratic
government, to congratulate the traditional doctors and sing praises
from my heart. In the past, we were not planning together. Still in
the past, we were not doing things together, but today, Mbeki
himself changed plans. He recognised the role of traditional doctors
and freed them. Ladies and gentlemen, look back and see traditional
doctors during the time of oppression. There was sadness on their
faces.
Well, things have changed. Ladies and gentlemen, life is full of
problems.
Yes, it is the survival of the fittest, but God heard us
and sent us the leadership of the ANC - what a wonderful thing!
Today I talk about the leadership that has a voice; the government
gave them a chance and the nation rejoiced. It rejoiced and sang
praises and said, “We, too, have been freed”. [Applause.] “We sing
freedom with pride, we hop and dance. We say forward ever!”
We are the government, so let us be proud of ourselves. Traditional
doctors, remove sadness from your faces, stand up with pride and
say, “Viva democracy, Viva ANC”!]
Madam Deputy Chair, today we debate a very important piece of
legislation for our people. We are resuscitating confidence in the
historically known herbal remedies and cures. Our traditional health
practitioners from today - hey madoda from namhlanje [Laughter.] -
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 87
will be able to claim payment from any person who has a medical aid
card according to the provisions of the Medical Schemes Act.
Now, Minister, it is going to be very difficult indeed, because I am
tempted to join that gang over there. [Laughter.] I want to join
you, because you are going to treat even people like myself. I have
a medical aid card, so I am going to be one of your clients very
soon.
Never again will you see educated people like myself going to see
those people during the night. [Laughter.] I will now go during the
day, because they will be registered. [Applause.] People who pose as
registered traditional health practitioners will be found guilty if
they make false entries in the register, or obtain certificates by
false means. They will be found guilty if they make unauthorised
entries in, or alterations to, a register. They will be punished if
they destroy, damage or render illegible any entry in the register,
without the permission of the holder thereof. Any holder of an
issued certificate will be found guilty if he or she forges a
certificate.
For the investigation of matters relating to teaching and training,
only a person authorised by the council in writing is allowed to
enter any institution or premises utilised for these purposes. Any
person who prevents an authorised person from entering such
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 88
institutions or premises is guilty of an offence and liable to a
fine, imprisonment or both.
Like any other council, this council will also have rules to govern
its affairs in terms of their business conduct, procedures followed
during meetings, how contracts must be entered into, how accounts of
the council must be kept, and on how to dispose of moneys accrued.
They must also have rules on how allowances may be paid to members,
and rules on duties and conditions of services of the registrar and
other officers who will be appointed. They must have rules on how
various registers are kept, how certificates are issued, and any
other matter that may be promulgated under this Act.
A person who is not a registered traditional health practitioner
will be found guilty if he or she practises as a traditional health
practitioner for gain, physically examines a person, diagnoses or
treats any person, prescribes or provides traditional medicine,
pretends to be a traditional health practitioner and diagnoses,
treats or offers to treat or cure cancer or HIV/Aids. For the first
time, our traditional health practitioners will now be asked to pay
an annual fee.
“Nizakubhatala ke ngoku kudala siniyekile nisebenza ningabhatali
Nizakubhatala.” [You are going to pay now since we have given you a
chance for a long time to work without paying. You are going to
pay.]
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 89
. . . because the Minister will have to prescribe, on the
recommendation of the council, the amount that you will have to pay
annually. Anybody who fails or refuses to pay this annual fee
“siyanivalela etrongweni.” [will be put in jail]. [Time expired.]
LINGQONGQOSHE WEZEMPILO: Kunzima ukulandela uMaDumisa kodwa njengoba
nimbona eqhuga nje usethembele kinina ukuthi nizomnyanga onyaweni
lwakhe. Angibonge-ke amalungu ahlonophekile ePhalamende ngokuxhasa
nokusekela lo Mthethosivivinyo. Ngithokoza kakhulu futhi ukuthi
ngibona sengathi siyavumelana sonke noma kukhona nje abanye
abagxekagxekayo kodwa sisho ngazwi linye ukuthi kufanele sibuyisele
amasiko ethu nobuntu bethu.
Ucishe asidide-ke u-Coetzee uma eseqala ukufaka oma-retrovirals
esesho nokuthi kufanele kuphenywe ukuthi senzenjani ngawo. Lo
Mthethosivivinyo awungawo ama-retrovirals kodwa ungokubuyisa isidima
nobuntu bethu . . .(Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)
[The MINISTER OF HEALTH: It is difficult to follow MaDumisa and as
she is limping she hopes that you will treat her leg. Let me thank
the hon members for supporting this Bill. I am also very happy to
see that we seem to be agreeing that it is important to restore the
dignity of our culture and reaffirm our Africanness.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 90
Mr Coetzee confuses us then when he speaks about antiretrovirals,
saying that there should be an investigation as to what we are doing
about them. This Bill is not about antiretrovirals, but about the
restoration of our dignity and Africanness . . . ] . . . our
uniqueness as Africans.
Uphinde waphawula-ke engasakhulumi ngendlela esibhekelela ngayo
ingculazi – sizomcela futhi ayofunda i-comprehensive plan on
HIV/Aids – yokuthi sikhuluma ngokudla okunomsoco, ukuziphatha
nangazo zonke izinto ezinjalo. Kufanele afunde uMthethosisekelo,
angalokhu ezoma lapha phambi kwethu evikela amaphakethe
ongxiwankulu. Asimele ukuzokhuluma ngalokho namhlanje, siyophinde
siyixoxe leyo.
Uphinde waba nokungabangabaza futhi ngokuthi mhlawumbe kukhona
abanye abazosebenzisa lo Mthethosivivinyo ukutshela abantu ukuthi
bangayi emsebenzini ngoba begula. (Translation of Zulu paragraphs
follows.)
[He made yet another remark, but this time it was not in relation to
the way in which we fight HIV/Aids. I request him to go and study
the comprehensive plan on HIV/Aids where we discuss things like
nutritional food, good behaviour and so on. He must read the
Constitution, and should stop coming here to defend the capitalist
interest. We are not here today to debate that, therefore let us
close that issue; we will discuss it next time.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 91
He also expressed uncertainty in that some people will abuse this
Bill by encouraging other people not to go to work and then to claim
to have been sick.]
I think I just need to point out that the conditions of service are
covered under the Basic Conditions of Employment Act. These
conditions do not change arbitrarily. Therefore, there are only a
certain number of days that can be taken for sick leave, and it will
apply to the traditional healers also.
If you have exhausted the amount of sick leave days to be taken, you
will have to take unpaid leave or vacation leave. Therefore, whether
a traditional practitioner or a doctor writes false medical
certificates to grant extra leave, this makes no difference, as
leave is kept in this country. [Applause.] In addition, managers and
supervisors can pick up on occasions when leave is being abused.
This is how it was picked up that doctors had abused the granting of
sick certificates to some patients. It is not only going to be
particular to them. This is why we have this regulation.
U-Rabinowitz naye ufuna ukusidida. Uzobuza imibuzo ebivele
iphendulwa nasekomidini, uzosidida nje ngeminye ngemibuzo futhi
uyazi ukuthi kuMthethosivivinyo awukwazi ukufaka yonke
imininingwane. Imininingwane uyifaka uma ngabe usuwenza ama-
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 92
regulations naye uyakwazi lokho. (Translation of Zulu paragraph
follows.)
[The hon Rabinowitz also wants to confuse us. She is asking
questions that have been answered in the committee; she confuses us
with additional questions and yet she knows very well that it is
impossible to put all the details in a Bill. You only include
everything when you are making the regulations, and she knows that
too.]
I do not think that she should take traditional medicine and try to
fit it into a Western medicine box. It will not work. So, do not try
to do so. Do not try to ask a lot of questions that just tend to
confuse the issues, because you are using an allopathic model that
we are not using in this regard. I have stated that this legislation
is the first of its kind, and it is innovative. In a similar way,
that is how we will deal with regulations, and the implementations
thereof.
Umama u-Batyi naye uke wathi ukudideka kancane. Naye kuzofanele
simchasisele kahle ukuthi mhlawumbe akawufundanga kahle lo
Mthethosivivinyo. Ngimyalele-ke esigabeni 46, 1(f) . . . I think
Mama Batyi is also a bit confused. We also need to explain to her
that she did not read the Bill thoroughly. I refer her to section
46,1(f), which empowers the Minister, in consultation with the
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 93
council, to make regulations relating, inter alia, to registration
of categories of practitioners including traditional surgeons.
“Ngakho ungakhathazeki mntakwetu ngabelaphi bendabuko, nabo
sizobalawula.” [Therefore do not worry my friend, these traditional
healers are also subject to regulation.]
Let me just end off by saying . . . ngithokoze kakhulu ukuthi
sixoxisane ngomoya opholile futhi singaxabani ngoba nento esiyixoxa
namhlanje iyinqayizivele, ikakhulukazi lapha eNingizimu Afrika
ayikaze ibe khona. Ngenye indlela senza into ebalulekile.
(Translation of Zulu paragraph follows.)
[I was very happy that what we discussed today was discussed in very
good spirit. We did not quarrel because what we are discussing here
is very rare, particularly in South Africa as it has never existed.
In other words, we are doing something that is important.]
We are beginning, in part, to address some aspects of the second
economy in this country. We are doing the same also, with the
envisaged health charter in this country. I just want to say, once
more, that this is a restoration and a reaffirmation of our dignity
and our Africaness. I think this is a great day, a historic day for
South Africa, and we must say: “Halala, ANC, halala!” [Applause.]
Thank you.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 94
Debate concluded.
Bill read a second time (African Christian Democratic Party
abstaining).
BEIJING PLUS 10: AN EVALUATION FROM A PARLIAMENTARY PERSPECTIVE
(Subject for Discussion)
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you very much, Chairperson. I want to
start off by thanking the Speaker for allowing this debate to take
place today, as we prepare for a debate with 146 other parliaments
at the beginning of October 2004.
Our democracy was one year old when a very able and committed leader
headed a South African delegation to Beijing. This hon member is a
shining star. She has proved to the world that women, given an
opportunity, can move mountains and cross oceans with ease. That hon
member is the Minister of Foreign Affairs.
Today, she and many other South African leaders look back with pride
to that historic occasion. Not only did we promise the world to
change the status of women in South Africa, but we excelled. Before
1994 South Africa was one of the worst and backward countries in
relation to gender-related issues. Today we are number 12 in the
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 95
world and countries like the United States and the United Kingdom
are way down the line.
The Beijing Declaration and Platform for Action emanated from the
Fourth World Conference on Women, held in Beijing in September 1995.
The Beijing Declaration and Platform for Action provides the agenda
to empower women and aims to remove all obstacles to women in all
spheres of public and private life. It recognises that many women
face barriers such as race, language, ethnicity, culture, religion,
disability or socioeconomic class that prevent them from enjoying
basic human rights. It identifies 12 critical areas of concern, that
is, areas of particular urgency that stand out as priorities for
action. These are poverty, education and training, health, violence
against women, armed conflict, the economy, power and decisionmaking, institutional mechanisms, human rights, the media, the
environment and the girl-child.
In order to empower women in these critical areas, governments and
parliaments are required to undertake various actions to ensure that
women have equal access to, and full participation in, power
structures and decision-making. In June 2000 a special session of
the General Assembly reviewed the implementation of the Beijing
Declaration and Platform for Action and we called that Beijing+5. In
the outcome document they adopted, governments pledged to review
domestic legislation with a view to striving to remove
discriminatory provisions as soon as possible, preferably by 2005.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 96
The year 2005 is an important milestone for international women’s
rights as it marks the 10th anniversary of the 1995 Fourth World
Conference on Women where the Beijing Declaration and Platform for
Action was adopted. The 10-year international review and appraisal
of the Beijing Declaration and Platform for Action will take place
at the 49th session of the Commission on the Status of Women in March
2005.
In addition to reviewing the implementation of the Beijing
Declaration and Platform for Action, the commission will also
discuss current challenges and forward-looking strategies for the
advancement and empowerment of women and the girl-child. After the
Beijing conference many African governments, including the South
African government, declared their support for the implementation of
the Beijing Declaration and Platform for Action, and developed
national action plans to give effect to their commitment.
These action plans outlined governmental priorities in implementing
the Beijing Declaration and Platform for Action as well as the
proposed methods and institutional frameworks within which the state
objectives were to be met. In 2000 the government of South Africa
adopted the National Policy Framework for Women’s Empowerment and
Gender Equality.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 97
Freedom cannot be achieved unless women have been emancipated from
all forms of oppression. That is what we said when we came here in
1994, and that is what we are still consistently saying. All of us
must take this on board and the fact that the objectives of the
Reconstruction and Development Programme will not have been realised
unless we see, in visible and practical terms, that the conditions
of the women of our country are radically changed for the better and
that they have been empowered to intervene in all aspects of life as
equals with any other member of society.
Ke itumelela thata gore fa re bua ka selo se sa Beijing, re bua le
ka mokgwa o se tshwanetseng gore se thuse bogolosegolo bomme, re bua
ka sona gompieno re na le lona bomme ba dingaka tsa rona le fa le
setse le tsamaya. Re na le lona gompieno, re itumela le lona gore le
lona le tla tshwana le batho. Le mo utlwile Tona gore o rileng, le
mo utlwile mme Madumise gore o rileng. (Translation of Tswana
paragraph follows.)
[I am very happy when we talk about Beijing. We talk about the way
this is supposed to help, especially women who are traditional
healers - even though you are now leaving. We are with you today; we
are happy that you will be recognised just like any other person.
You heard what the Minister said; you heard what Ms Madumise said.]
South Africa’s commitment to human rights is embedded in our
Constitution. Human rights are considered to include women’s rights.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 98
They also include the sexual and reproductive rights of women, men
and young people.
I would like to conclude - and I will give the rest of my speech to
Hansard - but I just want to say that it helps us to discuss topics
that are going to be discussed at an international conference so
that we can hear the views of South Africans, and that when people
speak, they can actually say we have heard “ukuthi uMaMkhize yena
uyibona kanjani le ndaba.” [what an ordinary woman’s views are on
this matter.]
This is what we have started to do. We have asked the presiding
officers please to table all the topics so that when people go to
international conferences they go well prepared. One of the things
that will be discussed at the Inter-Parliamentary Union conference
in Geneva next month will be the Beijing+10 from a parliamentary
perspective. We are actually readying ourselves for that conference.
The other two topics have been dealt with in the National Assembly
and the NCOP.
We want to thank the Whips very much for allowing us to keep on
bringing on board these topics for discussion so that that sharpens
our participation at international forums.
I think my time has expired now. I can just see the Table staff
looking at me and I think, as one who presides there, I should
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE: 99
actually set a very good example and end now. Thank you very much.
[Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M DOIDGE): Deputy Speaker, we noted
that you didn’t finish your speech. I am sure that if you copied it
and circulated it among parties they would have the benefit of the
rest of your speech. Thank you.
Mrs M A A NJOBE: Chairperson, the World Conference on Women held in
Beijing, China, in September 1995, was the fourth in a series of
World Conferences on Women - all organised under the auspices of the
United Nations. The then UN Secretary-General, Mr Butros Butros
Gali, noted that the commitments made at that conference were not
only as a result of diplomatic negotiations, but that behind them
lay the strong and organised power of the World Women’s Movement. He
affirmed that the UN regarded itself as a staunch ally of the
Women’s Movement, and that to achieve the goal of full equality of
men and women, as stated in the UN Charter, the UN had always worked
with the Women’s Movement.
It is worth recalling that the Secretary-General of the Beijing
Conference, in which 189 countries participated and endorsed the
Beijing Platform for Action, was the current President of the PanAfrican Parliament, Mrs Gertrude Mongella. She is presently in our
country to prepare for the coming session of the Pan-African
Parliament. I am sure we all welcome her.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE:
100
The South African delegation to Beijing was led by the hon Minister,
as already mentioned by the Deputy Speaker. Thousands of NGOs and
other international bodies participated in the conference. At this
conference the South African government committed itself to the
Beijing Platform of Action, which called on governments to take
action on 12 critical areas of concern. These are listed in the
Beijing Platform of Action, and I will be referring to some of them
in my speech.
Governments, the international communities, civil society including the NGOs - as well as the private sector are all
encouraged fully to commit themselves to take strategic action in
the 12 areas that have been identified. By April 2000, that is five
years after the conference, 119 member states, which is 63%, had
submitted their national plans of action. The South African
government is one of them, and is just expected to report on its
progress on the 12 critical areas.
South Africa’s first progress report, the Beijing Platform of Action
2000, has since been submitted. One of the critical areas identified
is women and poverty. The commitment of the ANC-led government in
this area is very well known. Its antipoverty strategy includes two
components, namely, meeting the basic needs and developing human
resources, a strategy that has enabled the department to shift from
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE:
101
a purely welfare approach to a developmental approach, thus
responding to the challenges of the people’s contract.
An extensive study on poverty, involving consultations with
stakeholders, has resulted in the formation of partnerships between
civil society and the government, leading to the establishment of a
poverty fund. Service delivery road shows have been organised by all
spheres of government to promote the principle of Batho Pele. The
integrated primary school nutrition programme addresses poverty that
afflicts families and thus affects child development. The child
support grant is progressively being extended to reach more and more
children living in poverty, especially in rural areas. The Expanded
Public Works Programme is the latest addition intended to eradicate
poverty through creating labour-intensive jobs. In areas where the
programme has been launched, we have observed that women are already
benefiting.
Concerning women and education, the Beijing Platform of Action
recognises that education is a human right and an essential tool for
achieving the goals of equality, development and peace. Therefore
governments are expected to ensure equal access to education;
eradicate illiteracy among women; improve access to vocational
training, science and technology and continuing action; allocate
sufficient resources for educational reform; and promote lifelong
education and training for girls and women. Since 1994, steadily but
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE:
102
surely, the doors of learning and culture have been opening wider
and wider for women and girls in our country.
The Department of Education continues to receive the biggest chunk
of the national Budget in order to carry out the necessary reforms.
Some of the programmes from which women benefit include Curriculum
2005, the culture of learning and in-service teacher training, where
more than 50% of participants are women. The current learnership
programmes of the department for unemployed graduates and out-ofschool youth are targeting a 60% enrolment of women.
The Beijing Platform for Action states that women have the right to
enjoy the highest attainable standard of physical and mental health
- the enjoyment of this right being vital to their lives and
wellbeing, and their ability to participate in all areas of public
and private life. It recognises and reaffirms the rights of all
women to control all aspects of their health, in particular their
own fertility, as basic to their empowerment.
The free health care policy, the primary health care approach and
the school health promotion programme are some of the initiatives
taken to benefit women and children. The comprehensive policy on
HIV/Aids which includes awareness, care and treatment, the programme
for rape survivors, prevention of mother-to-child transmission and
the roll out of the antiretroviral treatment programme for people
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE:
103
living with HIV and Aids and legislation on reproductive health
issues are all part of the package to implement the Beijing Platform
for Action.
The Beijing Platform for Action sees violence against women as an
obstacle to achieving the objectives of equality, development and
peace. South Africa has identified violence against women and
children as one of the five national priority areas of concern. As a
result the South African government led by the ANC, of course, has
committed itself to a strong, proactive and integrated programme to
eliminate the scourge. Gender violence is integrated in the national
plan for human rights, a national co-ordinating committee on gender
violence has been established and victim empowerment programmes
exist.
Parliament has passed several pieces of legislation to address
violence against women. I am sure my other colleague will mention
these pieces of legislation just to remind us. We know them, because
we passed them. Governments are supposed to take measures that will
ensure women’s access to, and full participation in power structures
and decision-making. Governments must commit themselves to gender
balance in governmental bodies and committees, as well as in the
public administrative entities and in the judiciary. Governments
must also increase women’s capacity to participate in decisionmaking and leadership.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE:
104
In South Africa the Labour Relations Act, Act 66 of 1995 gives basic
rights to domestic workers and public sector workers. The Employment
Equity Act, Act 55 of 1998, outlaws discrimination on grounds of
race, sex, gender, family responsibility, pregnancy, HIV status and
so on, and thus protects women. The Skills Development Act, Act 97
of 1998, empowers women. The Promotion of Equality and Prevention of
Unfair Discrimination, Act 4 of 2000, empowers and protects women.
South Africa is a signatory to the SADC declaration on gender and
development, requiring a minimum of 30% representation of women in
decision-making structures. In this area we have made strides,
moving quickly from position 141 in the world before 1994 to number
8, as the ANC adopted a 30% quota for women regarding its list. The
number of women Ministers and Deputy Ministers keeps on increasing.
It now stands at almost 40%; fast approaching a 50-50 balance.
However, local government, particularly at ward council 1evel, still
lags behind, and so does the private sector at management level. In
order to achieve a national and international commitment to gender
equality, national gender machinery was put in place. These
structures aim to achieve equality for women in all spheres of life.
These spheres include the Office on the Status on Women; the gender
focal points or gender desks; the Joint Monitoring Committee on the
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE:
105
Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of Women; the Women’s
Parliamentary Caucus - it is a pity it’s not functioning properly,
but I think we will have to revive it; the Commission on Gender
Equality, an independent statutory body that monitors progress and
achievements towards gender equality; and lastly, civil society
women’s organisations that play a vital role in influencing policy.
South Africa has come a long way since September 1995. Our
achievements in the Beijing+10 are well-documented. While in some
areas we are well-advanced and posed to meet the challenges, in
other areas much work still needs to be done, for example,
programmes tackling poverty among women must be intensified.
Illiteracy among women is still higher than among men, yet more
women than men participate in the Adult Basic Education and Training
programme, Abet. Therefore, there is an urgent need to increase the
resources for both capacity-building of service providers and for
learning materials.
The way the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS, is
administered needs a review, in my opinion. Many, many poor students
have been abandoned by the fund right in the middle of their courses
and are now roaming the streets. Thank you. [Time expired.]
[Applause.]
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE:
106
Mrs S M CAMERER: Chairperson, it was my privilege to be part of the
Government delegation to the UN Fourth World Conference on Women in
Beijing in September 1995. Therefore, I am very pleased to be part
of this debate on evaluation of the conference by our Parliament,
exactly nine years later.
The Beijing Conference was an incredibly exciting and demanding
experience for me personally and, as far I could judge, also for all
the members of our 25-women delegation. We worked very hard to make
our contribution to the now famous Beijing Declaration and Platform
for Action. I remember the deputy leader of our delegation, then
Deputy Minister Geraldine Fraser-Moleketi, calling working sessions
after supper every evening, which went on late into the night. I do
believe that at that conference, because of all our hard work, we
truly punched above our weight.
However, experience was also humbling and brought some perspective
about our rather modest place in the world and left me with the
strong impression that we operate most effectively as an important
part of our Southern African region. Certain things stand out in my
memory: the huge Nigerian delegation - some 200 delegates compared
to our 25 - all dressed the same in vast, brightly colourful
dresses, and the predominance of the Americans. I recall our press
conference, which was attended by a mere handful of journalists. As
we left the conference room, we encountered Madeline Allbright who
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE:
107
headed the US delegation entering the conference room, pursued by a
huge horde of media people. And, of course, Hillary Clinton stole
the show when she addressed the conference!
These are realities that we have to deal with, and they will no
doubt be applicable when the review of the implementation of the
Beijing Declaration and Platform for Action takes place in New York
in March 2005. This review will focus on implementation at regional
and national levels, and so we must again be well prepared.
The Beijing Declaration and Platform for Action is the most thorough
document ever produced by a UN conference on the subject of women’s
rights. It includes agreements aimed at eliminating discrimination
against women, eradicating poverty and adopting measures towards
placing a decisive number of women in key positions. It also
recognises the right of women to control their sexuality reproduction being one of their human rights.
Additional critical areas of concern included an equal access of
women to education and training, health care and related services.
It also included a critical area of concern such as violence against
women and the persistent discrimination against the girl child. Also
of note in the Platform for Action are the definitions contained in
the chapter on armed conflict, where rape is for the first time
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE:
108
included as a war crime, and the acknowledgement of the racial and
ethnic roots of discrimination and equality.
In assessing the achievements and further challenges nine years on,
Africa as a region and South Africa as a country provide plenty of
food for thought. There have been huge failures and, of course, some
achievements.
If we are brutally honest, Africa has particularly failed women
around the issue of sexual violence during armed conflict. In so
many violent conflicts in Africa during the past nine years, even in
Southern Africa, sexual violence has been used as an instrument of
war. Rape is still a weapon, which has been and is still being
directed at hundreds of thousands of girl children and women on both
sides of these conflicts. Trafficking and sex slavery are ancillary
results.
The women of Liberia, the Ivory Coast, Sierra Leon and Angola have
suffered. The women of Sudan, Darfur, Burundi, Rwanda, the eastern
DRC and northern Uganda are suffering still. It is therefore
gratifying that leaders from our country are playing a positive role
in the peace processes in these war-ravaged areas.
While the HIV/Aids pandemic was not focused on as the major health
concern in 1995, it certainly is now since a large majority of the
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE:
109
millions of Africans who are HIV-positive or who have Aids are
women, particularly young women. A positive development at the
review meeting held in Lusaka in April this year was the recognition
of the HIV/Aids pandemic as a priority concern for the SADC region.
Poverty is still endemic in Africa and has got worse during these
nine years, not better. This challenge was also acknowledged at the
review meeting in Lusaka.
On the positive side, real progress has been made in establishing
and implementing national gender policies and improving women’s
representation in political decision-making. South Africa has far
surpassed the 30% target set by our region and while Mozambique can
chalk up a woman prime minister, with almost 50% of cabinet
Ministers women in South Africa, this achievement puts us way ahead
of the pack in our region. Progress has also been made with women’s
access to health, education and micro finance.
In charting the way forward the Lusaka Report makes the point that
notwithstanding progress, disparities between men and women still
exist in the areas of legal rights, power-sharing and decisionmaking, access and control over productive resources and education
and health, with the result that women still constitute the majority
of the poor.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE:
110
These are just some of the issues that we should concentrate on in
our country evaluation and up to the IPU meeting and, of course, at
subsequent review meetings. Thank you. [Applause.]
Ms M M MDLALOSE: Chairperson, the role and equality of women rightly
remain high on the political agenda since the World Conference on
Women held in Beijing in 1995.
The issues discussed at this conference were of direct relevance to
the women of South Africa. These areas, amongst others, covered
women and poverty, education and training of women, women and
health, violence against women, institutional mechanisms for the
advancement of women and the rights of the girl child – umntwana
wentombazane. These issues will be tabled at the Inter-Parliamentary
Union in Geneva in two weeks time.
The repertoire has deliberately homed in on four areas, namely,
women in power and decision-making, women and violence, women and
the economy and the girl child. In our next national context we have
also highlighted the unfinished agenda of the liberation of women
from all forms of oppression and sexism, which continue to flourish
within our families, workplaces, in our societies and communities.
This remains a challenge to us as a nation. As one nation we are
still striving to narrow the gap between the “paper rights” of women
codified in the Constitution and the real lives that women lead.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE:
111
“Sithi akungagcini ephepheni phela, akube sempilweni ngqo.” [We say
that these should not be mere “paper rights”, but should be
practical.]
The grim reality is that abject poverty affects women worse because
they bear the responsibility of raising families and are often the
sole breadwinners. And, the shocking truth is that physical and
sexual violence against women has climbed steadily.
As parliamentarians, we are a virtual link to international public
opinion. All parliamentarians who believe in the full empowerment
and equality of society bear a moral responsibility to voice the
interests of the South African women, and indeed, women everywhere.
The percentage of women at the highest level of national and
international decision-making has changed significantly since the
Beijing conference, but not enough progress has been made at the
grassroots level.
“Abantu abakaqondisisi kahle ukuthi kufuneka basizwe kanjani
abesimame, kufuneka bathuthukiswe kangakanani, nokuthi yini
okufanele yenzeke ukuze amalungelo abo abe ngcono.” [People do not
yet exactly understand how women should be helped, how they should
be developed and what should be done to improve their rights.]
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE:
112
It is essential that we consider how Parliament can improve the
status of women at this level. South Africa has a wealth of
experience in working towards the empowerment of women. I believe
our delegates will have much to contribute to the debate on
implementing the Beijing Agenda. It is imperative that we furnish
our representatives with clear and bold mandates at this conference,
if we are to have a meaningful impact. I believe it is vital that
the mandates must make practical recommendations and directives
rather than being long on rhetoric and of a discursive nature. I
thank you. [Applause.]
Ms N M MDAKA: Chairperson and hon members, it is sad to note that
whilst we are left with only 11 years to the 2015 target endorsed by
the Beijing Conference, only 16 countries have at least 30% women
representation in their parliaments. This percentage will not
increase without the political will of political parties represented
in these parliaments to ensure that parliaments are more gender
sensitive and to ensure greater women’s political participation in
the introduction of gender sensitive policies.
In many countries the challenges facing women are no longer
legislative, but administrative. The laws are there and it is now
time to ensure that they are being implemented. Therefore, it is
clear that women should be the vanguard to educating society, to
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE:
113
changing the social attitudes and beliefs that condone, for
instance, domestic violence.
Even in countries like ours, where governments have taken some
measures to ensure the participation of women in the economy, these
measures have not been effective, mainly because they are not
systematically implemented. Our governments and parliaments should
enhance our capacity to monitor progress and encourage positive
change.
Despite the important steps taken by our government, it is still
evident that there remains a continued cultural discriminatory
attitude toward girl children as well as a lack of financial
resources, which prevent their economic independence. Too many
governments have a tendency to leave these matters to the community
concerned on the grounds that the decision is a tribal or cultural
one.
As a democratic country and progressive Parliament, we have a
special duty to reach out to the other parliaments and political
parties in order to encourage gender equality. We have a
contribution to make, and we shouldn’t hesitate to do so. Whilst we
share our experience, we may also learn innovative new ways of
advancing gender equality in our own country.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE:
114
These efforts must be an ongoing exercise informed by genuine
political will, as opposed to the occasional debate or conference.
Otherwise we merely look back every year and lament the lack of
progress. I thank you.
Mrs P DE LILLE: Chairperson, it’s such a pity that the House is so
empty, and I hope that this is not a reflection of what we think of
women’s issues. [Interjections.] Certainly not! No, they are there,
I’ve already made sure of that.
The original Beijing declaration calls for all countries to have a
national action plan to improve and address all aspects of gender
discrimination, equity and advancement. During the UN’s 23rd General
Assembly session on the Beijing +5, governments unanimously agreed
regularly to assess further implementation of the Beijing Platform
for Action.
The South African government has achieved much in terms of gender
representivity at senior management and Cabinet level, and in the
public sector where women make up 53% of the Public Service and 26%
of senior management. Government should continue to incorporate and
utilise the process of gender-based analysis and gender-responsive
budgeting with respect to the development of legislation, policies
and budgets.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE:
115
The increasing feminisation of poverty is cause for concern.
Economic activity must be opened so that women can be given more
access to productive resources. The current international trade
regime is deeply unfair to developing countries, impacts most
negatively on poor women and is largely developed without the
parliaments of this world. Parliament must ensure that poverty
eradication becomes the priority of all government programmes.
The main challenges to gender equality in South Africa are the high
illiteracy and mortality rates, HIV/Aids, poverty and violence
against women. The South African Parliament should carry out a
critical review of its processes to ensure implementation of
programmes that will give effect to the Beijing declarations. I
thank you. [Applause.]
Mrs C DUDLEY: Chairperson, the ACDP notes that the major focus of
the Beijing +10 Evaluation Report is women and violence, and the
girl child. The strategic objectives based on the Beijing Platform
or Action in terms of women and violence include eliminating
trafficking in women and assisting victims of violence resulting
from prostitution and trafficking.
In this regard the ACDP further notes reports that South Africa is a
key player in the trafficking of girls between the ages of 4 and 17
years, from rural and urban areas who are in search of work or
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE:
116
survival, with the victims of poverty and sexual abuse, runaways and
orphans being the most vulnerable.
It is commonly known that prostitution opens women to abuse and
degradation. A study shows that 75% of prostitutes have attempted
suicide. It is not a harmless, victimless crime as is often stated
by those promoting legalisation. Of course, those most vocal and
determined to push for decriminalisation are those who stand to gain
the most financially from this form of slave trade.
Women and children are led into and trapped in prostitution through
money and drugs, and it would be irresponsible for any government to
protect those preying on women by legalising prostitution. Victoria
in Australia decriminalised prostitution in 1994, resulting in an
alarming increase in rape, violence, prostitution, abuse, brothels,
etc. According to police legalisation failed dismally there.
Where prostitution is legal, countries become the most popular
destinations for trafficked women owing to an increase in demand.
Traffickers and pimps avoid prosecution as it is argued, as in the
case of Sarah Baartman, that women entered into contracts
voluntarily.
The UN international crime prevention head of operations admitted
that when prostitution is legal or semilegal, it helps gangsters and
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE:
117
makes enforcement more difficult. In Sweden, however, prostitution
is listed in legislation against abuse of women as a gross violation
of women’s integrity; and the purchase of sexual services is
prohibited and punishable, placing the focus on the user and not the
prostitute. This is commendable. The ACDP supports all measures to
focus positive attention on the plight of women and children who
face daily violence and abuse. I thank you. [Time expired.]
Ms S RAJBALLY: Malibongwe igama lamakhosikazi! [Praise the name of
women!] Chairperson, the MF firmly supports gender equality and all
efforts to attain it. We already have a foundation in South Africa
for the attainment of gender equality, as provided for by the
supreme law of the nation - our national Constitution.
As we proudly note, all levels of government and legislation promote
gender equality and efforts are made to achieve this. However, we
need a database to monitor the progress of gender equality
throughout the various spectrums of South African society. As it may
have been noted last month, it was hard attaining such information.
We could, certainly, assist the attainment of gender equality by
maintaining such a database. Further, we support the primary
socialisation of girls into a society promoting social, economic and
political rights and awareness.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE:
118
The fight against violence against women and children needs to be
intensified, and all spheres of life concerning women need to be
addressed though the empowerment of women. As Parliament we already
have the necessary legislation in place to work towards effective
gender equality. However, we need to mobilise such legislation
effectively. We also have a responsibility in Africa to influence
gender equality. The MF supports Beijing +10. Thank you very much.
[Applause.]
Mr T M MASUTHA: Chairperson, hon members, as already mentioned by
others before me, the debate today centres around the progress made
since the adoption in September 1995 by some 189 countries of the
Beijing Platform for Action, which called on governments to take
action in 12 critical areas of concern regarding gender equality or,
perhaps to put it more accurately, inequality in the world.
It is with utmost humility that I represent my party, the ANC, in
this debate, being a man and being mindful of the role that men have
played or failed to play over the years in relation to gender
equality in this country and the world in general.
May I for a moment pause to express appreciation to the many women
in our country who, on a daily basis, continue against many odds to
sustain the livelihoods of families and households, and to express
appreciation, in particular, for the role they play in raising
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE:
119
children and providing a caring, supportive and nurturing
environment for them to grow up in often without the needed support
of their spouses or the fathers of the children.
This contribution often goes unnoticed, unrecognised and, therefore,
unrewarded by society and, indeed, women are often penalised by the
manner in which the social and economic systems of society operate.
Women in the workplace, for example, are often given very little or
no support and, even worse, penalised for fulfilling their social
responsibilities towards children, against the spirit of our Bill of
Rights, labour laws and laws aimed at promoting gender equality.
Our country in particular is faced with many challenges relating to
the advancement of the status of women. The mass democratic
revolution, which is the central political project of the ANC, is
premised on the key goal of building a new society free from racism
and sexism.
In order to achieve this goal, as stated in the National Policy
Framework for Women’s Empowerment and Gender Equality adopted by
Cabinet in December 2000:
. . . the country must undergo a paradigm shift with regard to
how resources are allocated and how people relate to each
other.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE:
120
These two key areas highlight the centrality of the economic and
social dimensions of society in the struggle towards achieving
gender equality.
The policy framework further states that:
The challenges facing South Africa have been translated into
national priorities.
All of these priorities have been compelling gender dimensions which
need to be addressed if the country is to advance towards gender
equality.
Some of the key challenges are gender relations; poverty; HIV/Aids;
violence against women; access to basic needs and resources such as
education, housing, social welfare services, fuel and water; access
to employment, the economy, land, science, technology; and
participation in political and decision-making structures.
Regarding gender relations, the challenge is to shape the broad
transformation project in a way that acknowledges the centrality and
compatibility of the transformation of gender relations to the
broader institutional change process. This requires a fundamental
review of what has come to be accepted as “business as usual”.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE:
121
South Africa has made significant strides in the advancement of
women and the eradication of social and economic exclusion, as well
as in restoring the inherent right of women to dignity, and freedom
from degradation, abuse and discrimination.
Policies and programmes in the economic field include Twip, which
stands for Technology for Women in Business, driven by the
Department of Minerals and Energy to promote the participation of
women in technology and to recognise, through awards, the
contribution of women in technology.
In terms of women in agriculture, women are supported and encouraged
to be farmers through training and small grants specially
established for women. There is preferential procurement for women
through the Department of Trade and Industry; and women in
construction are recognised by the Department of Public Works
facilitating their entry into the market.
In the justice field, for example, despite the generally held view
within the judiciary against the establishment of specialised courts
owing to the risk of fragmenting the justice system, family courts
have been established and are functioning in areas such as Cape
Town, Durban, Port Elizabeth, Lebowakgomo and Johannesburg. These
courts are designed to improve services to women and children in
family law matters.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE:
122
At this juncture, I wish to congratulate the Minister of Justice and
Constitutional Development on her unwavering determination in
pursuing issues of gender and race, herself being the first black
woman to become a Minister for Justice and Constitutional
Development in this country.
To increase the number of women on the bench remains a challenge
that continues to haunt the Judicial Service Commission, of which I
am humbled to have been appointed a member recently by this august
House. At our last sitting, for example, we recommended the addition
of two more black and two more white women. Unfortunately, the
culture within the legal profession still alienates and discourages
young women from joining and advancing through the ranks of the
legal profession, thus limiting the scope of potential candidates
for selection for judgeship by the commission.
Reform of the maintenance system is an ongoing priority, according
to the briefing given by the department during the budget hearings
earlier in this Parliament. The project here is aimed at
establishing relief measures in respect of procedures pertaining to
maintenance, and at improving the management of maintenance matters
focusing on six key result areas, namely, legislation,
infrastructure, human resource development, information technology,
communication and the integration of services.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE:
123
Twenty million rand has been set aside for the appointment of the
first maintenance investigators, and the first 59 of these
investigators, who have been the missing link in the maintenance
services chain, were appointed in 2003.
No less than 50 sexual offences courts are currently operational.
They have impacted significantly on the lessening of the trauma of
victims and have increased the conviction rate of offenders. The
development of a victims’ charter has also helped in the empowerment
of victims of sexual offences.
Finally, let me express appreciation that is also, I believe, on
behalf of this House at large to the Minister of Social Development
for rolling out the various social grants, in particular the child
support grant, to the many poor and vulnerable amongst the masses of
our society; thus providing the tool women in particular need to
shield their children against the devastating effects of poverty,
and promoting social cohesion. I thank you. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
GENEVA ACT OF THE HAGUE AGREEMENT CONCERNING THE INTERNATIONAL
REGISTRATION OF INDUSTRIAL DESIGNS
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE:
124
(Consideration of request for approval by Parliament in terms of
section 231(2) of Constitution)
PROTOCOL RELATING TO THE MADRID AGREEMENT CONCERNING THE
INTERNATIONAL REGISTRATION OF TRADE MARKS
(Consideration of request for approval by Parliament in terms of
section 231(2) of Constitution)
Mr B A D MARTINS: Chairperson and esteemed hon members, the Geneva
Act of the Hague Agreement concerning the international registration
of industrial designs and the protocol relating to the Madrid
Agreement concerning the international registration of trademarks
are the enabling instruments in respect of the Hague and Madrid
systems respectively.
The Hague system seeks to facilitate the establishment and
maintenance of design protection through a single international
registration for all the member countries. All designs will now be
registered at a central point, namely, with the World Intellectual
Property Organisation. Of the 30 members of the Hague system, 33%
are from developing countries. Other member countries include key
trading partners of South Africa, such as Germany, the Netherlands,
Italy, Spain and Switzerland.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE:
125
The Hague system also provides for the participation of regional
systems, for example, through the Southern African Customs Union and
the African Regional Industrial Property Office. The Madrid system
on the other hand seeks to facilitate international registration,
maintenance and the renewal of trademarks.
The benefits accruing from joining the Madrid and Hague systems
will, amongst other things, include, firstly, effective protection
and quicker registration of intellectual property rights by offering
a single registration process for a number of designated countries;
secondly, providing a platform for South Africa to compete
internationally; thirdly, generation of foreign income through
registration fees; fourthly, confidence-building for investors;
fifthly, harmonisation of our intellectual property laws with those
of our trading partners; sixthly, protection of intellectual
property rights for South African investors; and seventh, the
creation of a fair and equitable framework in the field of
intellectual property. I thank you. [Applause.]
Geneva Act of the Hague Agreement Concerning the International
Registration of Industrial Designs approved.
Protocol Relating to the Madrid Agreement Concerning the
International Registration of Trade Marks approved.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE:
126
CONVENTION BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA
AND THE CABINET OF MINISTERS OF UKRAINE FOR THE AVOIDANCE OF DOUBLE
TAXATION AND THE PREVENTION OF FISCAL EVASION WITH RESPECT TO TAXES
ON INCOME
(Consideration of request for approval by Parliament in terms of
section 231(2) of Constitution)
AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA AND
THE GOVERNMENT OF THE STATE OF KUWAIT FOR THE AVOIDANCE OF DOUBLE
TAXATION AND THE PREVENTION OF FISCAL EVASION WITH RESPECT TO TAXES
ON INCOME
(Consideration of request for approval by Parliament in terms of
section 231(2) of Constitution)
Dr R H DAVIES: Chairperson, in the 10 years of democratic order,
South Africa has negotiated double taxation agreements with a
significant number of countries in all parts of the world. In
general terms double taxation agreements provide for persons from
one of the constructing jurisdictions who is paying taxes in that
jurisdiction not also to be subject to taxes in the other
jurisdiction, arising from short-term or temporary activities
carried out there.
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE:
127
Double taxation agreements encourage trade and commercial
interaction, as well as cultural, educational and other exchanges by
removing double taxation obligations, which might impede the
development of these relations. They usually also provide for the
exchange of information between the tax authorities of the two
contracting parties that could be of significance in enforcing
compliance. There are also proposals for later generations of double
taxation agreements to include provisions to co-operate in tax
collection.
The double taxation agreements that South Africa has been involved
in negotiating over the years have followed the format of the
Organisation of Economic Co-operation and Development model
convention, which is similar in most respects to a United Nations
model convention.
The model provides a framework within which there is a need for
individual case-by-case negotiations on such matters as the maximum
time a construction firm or service provider may be present in the
other jurisdiction before being regarded as a permanent
establishment, subject to tax, in that other jurisdiction.
The two double tax agreements before the House today, between us and
the Ukraine and Kuwait respectively, are wholly within the
parameters of other double taxation agreements approved by this
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE:
128
Parliament. The Portfolio Committee on Finance was unanimous in
recommending the approval by the House, and I trust that the House
will concur. Thank you. [Applause.]
There was no debate.
Convention between the Government of the Republic of South Africa
and the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine for the Avoidance of Double
Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes
on Income approved.
Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and
the Government of the State of Kuwait for the Avoidance of Double
Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes
on Income approved.
The House adjourned at 17:05.
__________
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
09 SEPTEMEBR 2004
PAGE:
129
1.
Introduction of Bills
(1)
The Minister of Finance
(i)
Financial Services Ombud Schemes Bill [B 20 - 2004] (National Assembly - sec
75) [Bill and prior notice of its introduction published in Government Gazette No
26709 of 24 August 2004.]
Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on Finance of the National
Assembly, as well as referral to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in
terms of Joint Rule 160, on 10 September 2004.
In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of the Bills may be submitted
to the JTM within three parliamentary working days.
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
1.
The Minister of Arts and Culture
Report of the South African Geographical Names Council for 2002-2003 [RP 203-2003].