TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
INDEPENDENT BROAD-BASED ANTI-CORRUPTION COMMISSION
MELBOURNE
FRIDAY 8 MAY 2015 AT 10.03 AM
(9th day of examinations)
MR STEPHEN O’BRYAN, Commissioner
MR IAN HILL QC, Counsel Assisting
OPERATION ORD INVESTIGATION
PUBLIC EXAMINATIONS PURSUANT TO PART 6 OF THE INDEPENDENT
BROAD-BASED ANTI-CORRUPTION COMMISSION ACT 2011
AUSCRIPT
UNCLASSIFIED
1
MR O’BRYAN:
Now, I understand Ms Ryan is in the hearing room.
2
You’re Ms Ryan?
3
remaining seated, Ms Ryan, for a minute.
4
preliminaries I have to go through.
5
to be video recorded.
6
Today’s date is 8 May 2015 and the time is 10.05 am.
7
name is Stephen O’Bryan.
8
examination under powers delegated to me by instrument
9
dated 5 September 2013.
10
Good morning.
Would you mind just
There are some
This examination is
Please commence the recording.
My
I am conducting this
I have already had marked as
exhibit 1 a copy of the instrument of delegation.
11
This examination is being held and conducted under
12
part 6 of the Independent Broad-Based Anti-Corruption
13
Commission Act 2011 as part of an investigation under
14
part 3 of that Act.
15
attention, Ms Ryan, to the fact that this examination is
16
inquisitorial in nature.
17
by the rules of evidence and that I can regulate the
18
conduct of this examination in such ways as I consider
19
appropriate.
20
Now, Ms Ryan, I understand you have had legal advice, but
21
you don’t have a legal representative here today.
I take this opportunity to draw your
This means that I am not bound
The examination is open to the public.
22
MS J. RYAN:
That’s correct.
23
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
Well, then, I would ask you, at this stage,
24
to enter the witness box, please.
25
Thank you.
26
MS RYAN:
27
MR O’BRYAN:
Please be seated.
Do you have a middle name?
Jana Ellen Ryan.
Ellen.
Pursuant to my delegated powers, I now
28
require you to take an oath or make an affirmation, Ms
29
Ryan.
30
MS RYAN:
Which of those two options do you prefer?
I will take the oath.
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DISCUSSION
1
MR O’BRYAN:
2
MS RYAN:
3
MR O’BRYAN:
Take the oath?
Yes, thank you.
Could you take the bible – it’s down on your left
4
there below the microphone – take it in your right hand,
5
please, and repeat after me.
6
JANA ELLEN RYAN, SWORN
7
MR O’BRYAN:
Thank you.
You can put the bible back down.
8
Because this is an inquisitorial examination, the
9
procedure differs from procedures which are adversarial
10
nature and of the kind that you normally see in the
11
courts.
12
you on matters relevant to the subject matter of the
13
investigation and I may also ask you some questions.
14
required to advise you of the nature of the matters in
15
respect of which you are to be asked questions.
16
Counsel assisting me, Ms Harris, will question
I’m
They are to give evidence before this Commission in
17
relation to your knowledge of matters the subject of the
18
scope and purpose described in the preliminary
19
information and directions for examinations in Operation
20
Ord.
21
to attend, did you receive a document titled Section
22
121(3)(c) Statement of Rights and Obligations?
23
MS RYAN:
24
MR O’BRYAN:
Ms Ryan, at the time you were served with a summons
25
I did.
And you have had legal advice, as I understand
it, from a Mr John Edgar.
26
MS RYAN:
27
MR O’BRYAN:
28
MS RYAN:
29
MR O’BRYAN:
30
MS RYAN:
Yes, I have.
Is he a solicitor or a barrister?
I think it was lawyer.
Well, did you - - He’s a lawyer from Brown company.
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UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
I think he’s – I
J.E. RYAN
1
don’t think he’s a solicitor.
2
MR O’BRYAN:
3
MS RYAN:
4
MR O’BRYAN:
5
MS RYAN:
6
MR O’BRYAN:
7
MS RYAN:
8
MR O’BRYAN:
9
MS RYAN:
Do you think he’s a barrister?
I think he’s a solicitor.
Yes.
Yes.
I’m not sure really.
So you went to solicitors - - -
We had a - - -
Did you – what is the firm of solicitors called?
Brown.
Brown?
Yes.
10
MR O’BRYAN:
11
MS RYAN:
12
MR O’BRYAN:
13
MS RYAN:
14
MR O’BRYAN:
15
I think - - -
And are they suburban solicitors?
That was on the list where I could get free advice.
Yes.
And Mr Edgar seemed to be - - -
John Edgar.
Mr John Edgar seemed to be a lawyer in that
office, did he - - -
16
MS RYAN:
Yes.
17
MR O’BRYAN:
18
MS RYAN:
19
MR O’BRYAN:
- - - who handled your matter?
Yes.
And have you – did he take you through the
20
statement of rights and obligations and explain that
21
document to you?
22
MS RYAN:
23
MR O’BRYAN:
24
MS RYAN:
25
Yes, he did.
Yes.
All right.
Can I just ask;
he did say before I answer every
question to say privilege.
26
MR O’BRYAN:
27
MS RYAN:
28
MR O’BRYAN:
29
MS RYAN:
30
MR O’BRYAN:
Now, is that - - -
Yes.
- - - applicable here?
No.
It’s not applicable.
Thank you.
You don’t – the important thing is that the Act
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1
itself gives you certain rights and, in particular, if
2
you answer questions truthfully, then your evidence is
3
not admissible and cannot be used against you in a court
4
of law, with some limited exceptions that are written in
5
the statement of rights and obligations and which he
6
would have taken you through.
7
you through that?
8
MS RYAN:
9
MR O’BRYAN:
Do you remember him taking
Yes, yes.
So that you don’t need to say “privilege”,
10
because the Act itself restricts the use in which your
11
answers can be used against you.
12
MS RYAN:
13
MR O’BRYAN:
14
MS RYAN:
15
MR O’BRYAN:
That’s fine.
Yes.
That’s fine.
Yes.
I’m glad.
That was something that traditionally was
16
said in other jurisdictions in investigations, for
17
instance, ACCC investigations where you needed to make
18
that claim to ensure that your rights were protected, but
19
I don’t consider that you need to.
20
taken for granted that you have that protection.
21
MS RYAN:
22
MR O’BRYAN:
In other words, it’s
Thank you.
Do you follow?
Otherwise, do you have any
23
queries arising out of that statement of rights and
24
obligations?
25
MS RYAN:
26
MR O’BRYAN:
No.
No, I don’t.
No.
All right then.
Now, because this
27
investigation involves a protected disclosure, I’m
28
required to advise you of two matters under the Protected
29
Disclosure Act, and you won’t necessarily know these
30
matters anyway, but you would be committing a criminal
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1
offence if you disclose the content or information about
2
the content of the disclosure, if you happen to know what
3
it was.
4
Secondly, you would also be committing a criminal
5
offence if you disclose information likely to lead to the
6
identification of the person who made the assessable
7
disclosure, if you happen to know who that person is.
8
You are entitled, however, at any time to disclose the
9
content or information about the content of the protected
10
disclosure to your legal representative or advisor for
11
the purposes of obtaining legal advice or subsequently if
12
it’s relevant to your representation here.
13
I am otherwise satisfied that the limited exceptions
14
which would allow such disclosure do not apply in this
15
case and I do not allow disclosure for any other purpose.
16
Now, I’ve said that because the Act requires me to tell
17
you that, but I assume it may be the case that you don’t
18
know who the person was who made the assessable
19
disclosure.
20
can I assume you don’t know anyone?
21
MS RYAN:
22
MR O’BRYAN:
23
MS RYAN:
24
MR O’BRYAN:
If you do know, don’t name the person, but
No.
Yes.
Thank you.
All right.
Thank you.
Well, then, the
25
examination will commence and I authorise Ms Harris to
26
examine you.
27
28
MS A. HARRIS:
Ms Harris.
Thank you, Commissioner.
Are you Jana Ellen Ryan?
29
MS RYAN:
30
MS HARRIS:
Yes, I am.
And do you attend here in response to a summons
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UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J.E. RYAN
1
served on you?
2
MS RYAN:
3
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
I’m here because of that summons.
Can I just have some documents handed to you,
4
please.
5
given to you, specifically summons number SE1425;
6
that right?
7
MS RYAN:
8
MS HARRIS:
9
Hopefully they’re copies of documents that were
is
That’s correct, yes.
And with that summons, did you receive a
confidentiality notice dated 16 March 2005?
10
MS RYAN:
11
MS HARRIS:
Yes, I did.
And you’ve indicated to the Commissioner already
12
you also received a document titled Section 121(3)(c)
13
Statement of Rights and Obligations?
14
MS RYAN:
15
MS HARRIS:
16
MS RYAN:
18
MS HARRIS:
20
21
And did you also receive with that summons a
covering letter dated 16 March 2015?
17
19
Yes, I did.
Yes.
Thank you.
I tender those documents,
Commissioner.
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
Those documents will be marked as a bundle
as exhibit 126.
22
EXHIBIT #126 BUNDLE OF DOCUMENTS
23
MS HARRIS:
24
Primary School;
25
MS RYAN:
26
MS HARRIS:
27
MS RYAN:
28
MS HARRIS:
29
30
Ms Ryan, you’re the business manager at Brighton
is that right?
Yes, I am.
How long have you held that position for?
28 years.
And how long have you been with the Department of
Education?
MS RYAN:
44.
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1
2
MS HARRIS:
time;
3
MS RYAN:
4
MS HARRIS:
5
MS RYAN:
7
MS HARRIS:
9
MS RYAN:
MS HARRIS:
11
MS RYAN:
12
MS HARRIS:
14
Absolutely.
And for some of the time that you have been
He was.
And I think we heard yesterday he left in about
mid-2009;
10
13
is that right?
business manager, Mr Gordon Pratt was the principal?
6
8
And it has been known as various things over that
does that sound about right to you?
2008, I think.
So how long was he principal at Brighton Primary?
10 years, I think.
Right.
He came in 1998.
Can you give us just a brief description
of what your role is in terms of the business manager?
MS RYAN:
It has changed over the years.
I started there as a
15
clerical assistant and grew with the job.
16
a business manager is to oversee the budgets;
17
accounts payable;
18
who do accounts receivable;
19
advertisements on Recruitment Online;
20
appoint teachers and staff;
21
write the minutes and I attend finance, write the minutes
22
and answer a million calls during the day from parents.
23
24
MS HARRIS:
I do
I oversee staff in the general office
I do HR;
put out the
do contracts,
I attend school council,
And you’re responsible for the payment of
invoices sent to the school?
25
MS RYAN:
26
MS HARRIS:
27
Right.
And my role as
I am.
Can you tell me, in 2008/2009, was Brighton
Primary School a banker school or a - - -
28
MS RYAN:
29
MS HARRIS:
30
MS RYAN:
No, it wasn’t.
- - - program coordinator school?
No.
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1
2
MS HARRIS:
So you obviously understand what I mean by that
term?
3
MS RYAN:
4
MS HARRIS:
5
MS RYAN:
6
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
You’ve heard it before?
Yes.
Nonetheless, Brighton Primary School did pay an
7
invoice on behalf of someone else in December 2008,
8
didn’t they?
9
10
11
MS RYAN:
MS HARRIS:
And specifically for Anteriors Décor
Installations;
12
MS RYAN:
13
MS HARRIS:
14
Absolutely, yes.
Yes.
Could we have page 126 of the main court book,
please.
15
MS RYAN:
16
MS HARRIS:
is that right?
Have you seen this invoice before, Ms Ryan?
Yes, I have.
Can you explain how – or what your understanding
17
is of how it came about that Brighton Primary School paid
18
this invoice?
19
MS RYAN:
My principal at the time, Gordon Pratt, handed me
20
the invoice and he asked me to process payment.
21
did say to me it was a little bit unusual, but everything
22
was fine, because the Department were going to reimburse
23
the school and it was a directive from Mr Jeff Rosewarne.
24
MS HARRIS:
25
MS RYAN:
26
MS HARRIS:
27
MS RYAN:
28
MS HARRIS:
29
30
So he
What was unusual about it?
Because the goods weren’t at our school.
So no goods or services were received - - No.
- - - by Brighton Primary in relation to this
invoice?
MS RYAN:
No.
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2
MS HARRIS:
Do you know what the goods and services were that
were supplied?
3
MS RYAN:
4
MS HARRIS:
No.
If we can just scroll down, please?
5
There’s a good received stamp.
6
Mr Pratt that that’s his signature on there.
7
MS RYAN:
8
MS HARRIS:
9
MS RYAN:
11
MS HARRIS:
That is his signature, yes.
Do you agree with that?
And his writing in terms
Yes.
And you were responsible for paying that invoice.
Is that right?
13
MS RYAN:
14
MS HARRIS:
15
MS RYAN:
16
MS HARRIS:
17
MS RYAN:
18
We heard yesterday from
of the date?
10
12
Thank you.
I was.
I was asked to process payment.
How did it physically come to you?
He handed it to me.
Right.
And then as process is at the school I need to raise
a purchase school.
19
MS HARRIS:
20
MS RYAN:
Yes.
And I did that and documented everything that I knew
21
on – that was on that purchase order which was a
22
directive from Mr Jeff Rosewarne from the top going down.
23
The - - -
24
MS HARRIS:
25
MS RYAN:
26
MS HARRIS:
27
MS RYAN:
28
MS HARRIS:
29
30
I’ll just stop you there.
Yes, sorry.
Did Mr Pratt say how that directive came to him?
No, he just said it’s a directive from Mr Rosewarne.
And you indicated that you filled out the purchase
order.
MS RYAN:
Yes, I did.
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2
MS HARRIS:
Can we bring up page 125, please?
purchase order you’re referring to?
3
MS RYAN:
4
MS HARRIS:
5
MS RYAN:
6
MS HARRIS:
Yes, it is.
Yes.
Whose writing appears on that?
That’s mine.
And if we scroll down to the bottom, further,
7
please, if you may?
8
signature is it?
9
10
11
Is that the
MS RYAN:
Thank you.
That’s Mr Pratt’s
Yes, it is.
MS HARRIS:
If we can just go up a bit to the description, it
refers to office reqs which I assume is requirements.
12
MS RYAN:
13
MS HARRIS:
14
MS RYAN:
15
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
For Treasury Place.
Yes.
Where did that information come from?
16
Specifically that it was in relation to office
17
requirements.
18
19
MS RYAN:
Treasury so I assumed it was office requisites.
20
MS HARRIS:
21
MS RYAN:
22
23
24
25
I didn’t know what that – what was actually going to
And what was it that made you assume that?
I – I didn’t think it would be anything else, it
couldn’t be any equipment or anything.
MS HARRIS:
Did Mr Pratt tell you anything about what was
going?
MS RYAN:
No, he said the – the Department couldn’t actually
26
pay it at this point of time, he wanted the school to
27
pay, it was just some requisites in the – in the
28
Department, in the office area.
29
MS HARRIS:
30
MS RYAN:
So he said it was office requisites?
I’ve forgotten.
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MS HARRIS:
2
MS RYAN:
3
MS HARRIS:
4
MS RYAN:
5
MS HARRIS:
6
MS RYAN:
7
MS HARRIS:
8
MS RYAN:
9
MS HARRIS:
10
11
MS RYAN:
MS HARRIS:
13
MS RYAN:
14
MS HARRIS:
15
MS RYAN:
16
MS HARRIS:
17
MS RYAN:
18
MS HARRIS:
19
MS RYAN:
20
MS HARRIS:
MS RYAN:
23
MS HARRIS:
MS RYAN:
26
MS HARRIS:
28
29
30
It could have been.
Yes, correct.
It says, “To be reimbursed by DEECD.”
Yes, but the Department.
The Department at that stage.
Yes.
That was something that was told to you?
It was, I took it upon myself to document everything
And that was told to you by Mr Pratt was it?
Yes, it was.
That the Department was to reimburse the school?
Yes.
And it says, “Jeff Rosewarne’s” - - Oh - - I’m sorry, I interrupted you.
Sorry, no, I’m just reading that.
Sorry.
Yes.
“Jeff Rosewarne’s directive,” that wasn’t a
No.
That was something that was conveyed to you by Mr
Pratt?
25
27
Or it may have been an assumption that you made?
directive that came to you though was it?
22
24
I can be 100 percent sure on that, but - - -
on that purchase order.
12
21
Were they - - -
Correct.
What was Mr Rosewarne’s position at that
particular time in December 2008?
MS RYAN:
I really don’t know.
Do you recall?
I knew that he was just a
senior personnel in the Department.
MS HARRIS:
And at that stage you were a very experienced
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1
business manager.
2
MS RYAN:
3
MS HARRIS:
4
5
6
MS RYAN:
8
MS RYAN:
9
MS HARRIS:
12
13
14
We had never had that before.
That was only a
oncer.
MS HARRIS:
11
Was it unusual for Mr Rosewarne to be directing
your school to pay invoices on behalf of - - -
7
10
Yes.
Have you ever had it since?
No.
And what was your understanding of what was
located at Treasury Place?
MS RYAN:
I had no understanding, I had no idea what was
located at Treasury Place.
MS HARRIS:
Did you understand it to be head office of the
- - -
15
MS RYAN:
16
MS HARRIS:
17
MS RYAN:
18
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
- - - Department?
Yes.
We know that you paid that invoice.
There’s a
19
purchase – a payment voucher, I’m sorry, at page 128.
20
you could bring that up, please?
21
22
MR O’BRYAN:
If
128, please.
So this is all part of exhibit 12 I think, Ms
Harris.
23
MS HARRIS:
24
MR O’BRYAN:
25
MS HARRIS:
26
MS RYAN:
27
MS HARRIS:
28
MS RYAN:
29
MS HARRIS:
30
MS RYAN:
Yes, Commissioner.
Yes.
That’s the payment voucher - - Yes.
- - - for that invoice?
Yes.
Yes, it is.
Mr Pratt’s signature appears there.
Yes, it does.
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MS HARRIS:
2
MS RYAN:
3
MS HARRIS:
4
5
6
7
As does yours.
Is that right?
Yes, I’m the business manager there.
And the school council nominee was that the
assistant principal or someone - - MS RYAN:
That was – Sandra Lindsay was the school council
nominee and she was also assistant principal at the time.
MS HARRIS:
Was she informed that that particular payment
8
wasn’t for goods or services received at Brighton Primary
9
School?
10
11
12
13
MS RYAN:
MS HARRIS:
15
MS HARRIS:
16
MS RYAN:
17
MS HARRIS:
20
MS RYAN:
22
MS RYAN:
23
MS HARRIS:
26
27
28
Yes.
- - - and an invoice - - Yes.
- - - and now a payment voucher, what happens to
Well, they get filed in the – in our folders at
school.
MS HARRIS:
25
In terms
those documents?
21
24
So could you just explain the process?
of the – you’ve got a purchase order - - MS RYAN:
19
Once it leaves my office I – I don’t
know when – when it gets to the other people signing.
14
18
I don’t know.
And kept together?
Kept together.
Because they relate to one particular transaction.
Is that right?
MS RYAN:
Yes, everything’s related, that transaction is kept
together.
MS HARRIS:
Was the school ultimately reimbursed for that
payment?
29
MS RYAN:
30
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
If I indicated to you that they were reimbursed or
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1
the school was reimbursed $5000 on 30 December 2009 into
2
the high yield account, does that sound right to you?
3
MS RYAN:
4
MS HARRIS:
5
MS RYAN:
6
MS HARRIS:
7
MS RYAN:
9
MS HARRIS:
10
MS RYAN:
11
MS HARRIS:
12
MS RYAN:
13
MS HARRIS:
14
MS RYAN:
16
17
How were the funds reimbursed?
Do you recall?
It was electronic.
And did the – did it come with documentation or
any type of reference as to what - - -
8
15
We were reimbursed, yes.
Remittance advice, it had SRP adjustment.
So no reference to the fact - - No.
- - - that it was for - - No, no reference whatever.
- - - Arteriors Décor Installations?
No, it comes from the Department the remittance
advice.
MS HARRIS:
And no reference to the fact that it was for goods
and services supplied - - -
18
MS RYAN:
19
MS HARRIS:
20
MS RYAN:
21
MS HARRIS:
No.
- - - during December 2008?
No.
How were you to know as the business manager that
22
that $5000 that had been deposited into the school
23
account was for reimbursement of that invoice?
24
MS RYAN:
Well, like all business managers we come off our
25
leave and come in in January and do the end of year
26
rollover.
27
reimbursements at that point and my assumption was that
28
it was the reimbursement because I knew there was a
29
reimbursement coming and I reimbursed it in the
30
principal’s discretionary fund.
We weren’t – I wasn’t expecting any
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1
2
MS HARRIS:
assumption was correct?
3
MS RYAN:
4
MS HARRIS:
5
MS RYAN:
6
MS HARRIS:
7
MS RYAN:
8
9
Did you make any enquiries as to whether that
No.
Did you speak - - I ran it by Gordon and everything was fine.
So you spoke with Mr Pratt about it?
He would have seen it.
He would have to sign off on
our January and December reconciliation.
MS HARRIS:
That would make – there would be leftover, then,
10
funds of $176. Were you given any instruction as to how
11
that was to be used?
12
MS RYAN:
13
MS HARRIS:
14
15
No.
Was that to be used just at the school’s
discretion?
MS RYAN:
No, no.
I just receipted it and that was it.
It
16
went into the discretionary fund and – the principal’s
17
discretionary fund.
18
gets rolled over into consolidated revenue.
19
spent on anything.
20
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
At the end of the year everything
That wasn’t
So in terms of the records for that payment
21
back into the school, it would simply appear as a deposit
22
from the Department?
23
MS RYAN:
24
MS HARRIS:
25
MS RYAN:
26
MS HARRIS:
27
Correct.
For – or being for an SRP adjustment.
Yes.
And the SRP, we’ve already heard, is the student
resource package.
28
MS RYAN:
29
MS HARRIS:
30
MS RYAN:
Yes.
That’s allocated to each school.
Yes.
1302
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J.E. RYAN
1
MS HARRIS:
You would agree then, wouldn’t you, that somebody
2
looking at those two transactions from the outside
3
wouldn’t necessarily understand that they’re related,
4
would they?
5
MS RYAN:
6
MS HARRIS:
7
8
9
10
11
No, they wouldn’t.
Not particularly transparent for auditing
purposes, for example.
MS RYAN:
Not really.
You would agree with that?
As I did document on the purchase order
that DEET were going to reimburse the school and it
wasn’t much after the process of payment that it came.
MS HARRIS:
But there would be nothing transparent about the
12
actual payment going in being relevant to the invoice for
13
Arteriors Décor Installations, would there?
14
MS RYAN:
15
MS HARRIS:
No, probably not.
No.
Just out of interest, when you did make the
16
payment, did you notify anybody at head office that that
17
payment had been made.
18
19
MS RYAN:
MS HARRIS:
21
MS RYAN:
22
MS HARRIS:
24
25
26
Mr Pratt asked me to email Mr Rosewarne and
let him know that payment had been made.
20
23
Yes.
And did you do that?
I did.
Do you recall if you emailed his Department
address or his personal address?
MS RYAN:
I can’t recall but I imagine I would have looked him
up on the global email list.
MS HARRIS:
I’m not sure.
Could we bring up page 127, please.
You may not
27
have seen this email before.
28
to Mr Pratt in relation to the invoice and payment of the
29
invoice.
30
MS RYAN:
This is from Mr Rosewarne
Have you seen that before?
No, I haven’t.
1303
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J.E. RYAN
1
MS HARRIS:
2
MS RYAN:
3
MS HARRIS:
4
5
6
7
So that wasn’t forwarded to you at any stage?
No.
And you weren’t directed to contact Mr Rosewarne
on that particular email address?
MS RYAN:
No.
I just took it on myself.
I – I think I
emailed his – his email address on the global email list.
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
The evidence given to the commission
8
previously is that that invoice doesn’t actually relate –
9
that is the Arteriors Décor Installations invoice doesn’t
10
relate to goods and services supplied during the month of
11
December 2008.
12
party.
13
14
MS RYAN:
MS HARRIS:
16
MS RYAN:
17
MS HARRIS:
18
MS RYAN:
19
MS HARRIS:
20
MS RYAN:
22
Have you come to know that?
Yes, I believe so.
That’s when IBAC came to the
school last year.
15
21
It, in fact, relates to a Christmas
Is that when you found out about that?
That’s when I found out.
Yes, and they told me.
And that was the first you had heard about - - Absolutely.
- - - the invoice being for a Christmas party?
Well, that’s what they said.
Yes, I was quite
shocked actually.
MS HARRIS:
But that’s not the only unusual transaction
23
relating to your school, is it?
24
transaction involving coffee machines.
25
MS RYAN:
26
MS HARRIS:
There’s also a
There’s the coffee machines.
Yes.
How did it come to your attention that Brighton
27
Primary School was to purchase, or had purchased two
28
coffee machines?
29
30
MS RYAN:
Gordon Pratt had given me the documentation to
purchase the coffee machines on his school’s credit card.
1304
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J.E. RYAN
1
MS HARRIS:
2
MS RYAN:
What documentation was that?
That was the receipt from Harvey Norman and the
3
receipt – there’s a docket on the transaction of the
4
credit card.
5
came across it when I was reconciling the principal’s
6
credit card.
7
the credit card to make sure that the amounts that are on
8
that – bank statements for the credit card match the
9
amounts on the school’s bank account, and also in the
10
That’s what I do every month.
I reconcile
receipt – with the receipts - - -
11
MS HARRIS:
12
MS RYAN:
13
MS HARRIS:
14
MS RYAN:
15
MS HARRIS:
16
He had written the purchase order up and I
So just so I’m - - The receipts.
Sorry, I interrupted you.
Everything matches.
So just so I’m clear, did you first know about it
when you looked at the credit card statement?
17
MS RYAN:
18
MS HARRIS:
19
MS RYAN:
20
MS HARRIS:
21
MR O’BRYAN:
22
MS HARRIS:
Yes, Commissioner.
23
MS HARRIS:
Is that a copy of the credit card statement?
24
MS RYAN:
25
MS HARRIS:
26
May?
27
MS RYAN:
28
MS HARRIS:
29
30
No.
Or when Mr Pratt informed you?
No.
He just gave me the documentation.
Okay.
Could we have a look at page 167, please.
Part of exhibit 14?
Yes, it is.
Indicating the Harvey Norman transaction on 21
Yes.
Whose writing indicates a DCD coffee machine?
Is
that you or Mr Pratt?
MS RYAN:
That’s – that myself.
Because I had to ask what it
1305
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J.E. RYAN
1
was for, and I always write that down.
2
MS HARRIS:
3
MS RYAN:
4
5
Yes.
If I have to enter it into the system.
helps me.
MS HARRIS:
And can we bring up page 165, please.
6
part of exhibit 14, Commissioner.
7
that was handed to you, is it?
8
MS RYAN:
9
MS HARRIS:
10
11
12
MS RYAN:
That’s the receipt
Yes, yes.
Did you think it was strange that Brighton Primary
No, I didn’t because I – I had full trust in my
principal.
MS HARRIS:
14
MS RYAN:
16
That’s also
School was purchasing coffee machines?
13
15
So this
I had worked with him for 10 years.
Did you know where the coffee machines were going?
Well, he had written on his purchase order that they
were going to DEET at Treasury Place and Collins Street.
MS HARRIS:
Right.
And we can bring up that purchase order.
17
It’s the next page down, 166.
18
Mr Pratt?
19
MS RYAN:
20
MS HARRIS:
So that was filled out by
Yes, it was.
And if we just scroll down a bit further, those
21
addresses – 55 Collins Street, level 6 and 2 Treasury
22
Place – did they mean anything to you?
23
24
25
MS RYAN:
No, no.
Department.
MS HARRIS:
I knew they were something do with the
That’s really all I knew.
And was it unusual for Mr Pratt to be filling out
26
the purchase order?
27
would do?
28
MS RYAN:
Was that usually something that you
Normally people that place an order have to fill out
29
the purchase order.
I would do most of it for Mr Pratt.
30
It wasn’t really unusual.
1306
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J.E. RYAN
1
2
MS HARRIS:
be filled out prior to the purchase of an item?
3
MS RYAN:
4
MS HARRIS:
5
MS RYAN:
7
MS HARRIS:
8
MS RYAN:
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
That’s the way it should be actually.
So the school would need – need something like a
printer.
6
9
Was it usual practice that a purchase order would
You would fill out a purchase order first.
Yes, that is the process.
And that would be - - To fill out the purchase order, get it authorised
with the principal and place the order.
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
And then at some point keep the receipt
purchase order and invoice together.
MS RYAN:
Everything is kept together.
Yes, the purchase
order, the invoice, everything, the voucher.
MS HARRIS:
And what were the school credit cards to be used
for ordinarily?
MS RYAN:
What were they used for?
Anything and everything.
17
It could be reference books for teachers.
18
mine, I had to ring up – if they wanted reference books,
19
or take a copy of my credit card to buy books overseas
20
from Amazon.
21
is happening.
22
MS HARRIS:
And that was all documented.
When they used
And it still
Mr Rosewarne gave evidence to the commission that
23
he purchased the coffee machines by quoting Mr Pratt’s
24
credit card details.
25
your experience?
26
MS RYAN:
27
MS HARRIS:
28
MS RYAN:
29
MS HARRIS:
30
Is that an unusual practice, in
That is.
Have you heard of that happening before?
No.
What were you told about whether the coffee
machines were to remain the property of Brighton Primary
1307
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J.E. RYAN
1
2
School or whether they were on loan to - - MS RYAN:
When I were processed the credit card, I put them in
3
the assets register and had written there that they were
4
out on loan.
5
MS HARRIS:
6
MS RYAN:
7
MS HARRIS:
8
9
10
They were out on loan?
On loan.
So it was your understanding that it was on loan
to the Department.
MS RYAN:
To the two Departments, yes.
And I had documented
that.
11
MS HARRIS:
12
MS RYAN:
13
MS HARRIS:
And who provided that information to you?
Gordon told me they were out on loan.
In terms of the actual asset register, what kind
14
of detail is required to complete that?
15
example, the model, the make, serial number - - -
16
17
MS RYAN:
Do you need, for
The model, the make, the serial number, where it is
being housed - - -
18
MS HARRIS:
19
MS RYAN:
20
MS HARRIS:
And in this - - And any extra notes that you want to put.
In this particular case, when the purchase was
21
made the machines didn’t come straight to your school,
22
did they?
23
24
25
26
27
28
MS RYAN:
No.
I didn’t see them at all until they were
returned.
MS HARRIS:
So where did you obtain the information for the
asset register?
MS RYAN:
I just documented everything that was – that was on
the invoice there.
29
MS HARRIS:
30
MS RYAN:
On the invoice from - - And put it on to the assets from - - 1308
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J.E. RYAN
1
MS HARRIS:
2
MS RYAN:
3
MS HARRIS:
4
5
From Harvey Norman?
Yes.
How many schools – sorry, how many coffee machines
were at your school in 2009, do you remember?
MS RYAN:
Golly, I know there was one in the boardroom that
6
was where – or the conference room.
7
meetings were held.
8
have been two, I’m not sure.
9
staffroom at the moment.
10
That’s where the
And one in the staffroom.
Could
But we have two in the
There could have only been one
at that time.
11
MS HARRIS:
12
MS RYAN:
13
MS HARRIS:
14
MS RYAN:
So certainly no more than two.
No.
What became of the coffee machines?
Do you know?
They were returned by Mr Pratt to the school to my
15
office and in huge boxes.
16
they sat on the filing cabinets because we didn’t know
17
what to do with them.
18
MS HARRIS:
19
MS RYAN:
20
21
22
23
They were quite heavy.
Because you didn’t need them.
We didn’t need them.
Is that right?
And then they were taken away
when IBAC came in last year.
MS HARRIS:
Can you recall roughly when it was Mr Pratt
brought them back?
MS RYAN:
I think it was around about February 2013.
24
or March 2013.
25
that he returned the coffee machines.
26
And
MS HARRIS:
February
I documented it on the assets register
Just in relation to that asset register, we heard
27
evidence from Mr Rosewarne that one of the coffee
28
machines that had been purchased ended up at his home and
29
that he purchased another one to replace that coffee
30
machine which would mean that the two coffee machines
1309
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J.E. RYAN
1
that ended up at your school - - -
2
MS RYAN:
3
MS HARRIS:
4
5
Weren’t the ones that were bought, yes.
Yes.
So that would mean your asset register is
not quite right.
MS RYAN:
Is that correct?
Well, I was – I remember I was trying to have a
6
look.
7
saw one that didn’t really match what was bought and I
8
think I – I put on the assets this one has been returned
9
but it didn’t really make sense so that’s it, really.
10
11
12
MS HARRIS:
They were so heavy and they were in boxes and I
So you documented the fact that it didn’t match up
to what you understood the machine to be?
MS RYAN:
I didn’t say it didn’t match up.
I just said it was
13
returned but that wasn’t the two coffee machines that I
14
had entered.
15
16
MS HARRIS:
Mr Pratt is obviously no longer the principal at
Brighton Primary School.
17
MS RYAN:
18
MS HARRIS:
No, he’s not.
We heard yesterday, though, that in his current
19
role he’s still listed as a staff member of Brighton
20
Primary School - - -
21
22
MS RYAN:
base school.
23
MS HARRIS:
24
MS RYAN:
25
MS HARRIS:
26
MS RYAN:
27
MS HARRIS:
28
29
30
He’s attached to the – he has to be attached to a
And that’s still Brighton Primary School?
That is, yes.
And he receives his wages from the Department.
That’s correct.
He also receives some payment, though, doesn’t he,
from Brighton Primary School?
MS RYAN:
He gets reimbursement – we get – he’s teaching and
learning coach – for travel, any expenses that are
1310
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J.E. RYAN
1
incurred.
2
schools.
3
his printer.
4
5
6
7
MS HARRIS:
For accommodation, parking, mileage, toner on
Yes.
So how often does the school reimburse those
costs?
MS RYAN:
Well, over the last 14 months, it has been seven
times.
8
MS HARRIS:
9
MS RYAN:
10
He travels around to all the Victorian
And what amounts are we talking each time?
We – we have been given 20,000 and we’ve spent –
we’ve reimbursed about just over 16,000.
11
MS HARRIS:
12
MS RYAN:
Given 20,000 by the Department?
Yes.
And it’s all with his documents.
It shows
13
where’s he has been and he signs off on it, and then I
14
raise a purchase order.
15
16
MS HARRIS:
Why is it done that way?
Why is he paid by the
Department but Brighton Primary reimburses expenses?
17
MS RYAN:
18
MS HARRIS:
19
MS RYAN:
I don’t know.
Have you made any inquiries about that?
No, not really, because it was just given that he’s
20
attached to our base school and the money is to be given
21
to the school for him to get reimbursed.
22
23
MS HARRIS:
else?
24
MS RYAN:
25
MS HARRIS:
26
MS RYAN:
28
MS HARRIS:
30
No.
In your 28 years as business manager, has it ever
had that arrangement with anyone else?
27
29
Does the school have that arrangement with anyone
Never.
Have you had any conversation with Mr Pratt about
why the arrangement exists in that way?
MS RYAN:
He just said that’s the way the Department wants to
1311
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J.E. RYAN
1
do it because that’s his base school.
2
way.
3
MS HARRIS:
It’s the easiest
And you’ve not had any conversation with either
4
the funding finance side of the Department or the
5
Department yourself?
6
MS RYAN:
I had many conversations with the funding side and
7
so has the current principal wanting to know why he’s
8
still attached to our school and they keep saying that he
9
has to be attached to a base school but on the
10
fortnightly transaction report that we get, he’s always
11
out of budget.
12
comes – it’s out of budget which comes out of Department
13
funds, not the school’s funds.
14
MS HARRIS:
15
MS RYAN:
It doesn’t come out of our funds.
And who have you spoken to about that?
I think at some point, it was funding – it was Mr
16
Bruce Taylor.
17
spoken to Michelle Jenison.
18
19
MS HARRIS:
MS RYAN:
21
MS HARRIS:
22
MS RYAN:
24
25
No, no, I - - So it’s an - - I wouldn’t talk to other schools about anything like
MS HARRIS:
But, no, I don’t know.
But it seems an unusual practice, in your
experience?
MS RYAN:
27
MS HARRIS:
28
MS RYAN:
30
That’s really all I know.
Are you aware of any similar arrangement with any
that anyway.
26
29
I think my current principal spoke –
other school?
20
23
It
Well, probably.
Yes.
I haven’t given it much thought, to tell you the
truth.
MS HARRIS:
I don’t - - -
If it was in place and was, you know .....
How long has that been going on for?
1312
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J.E. RYAN
1
MS RYAN:
2
MS HARRIS:
3
MS RYAN:
4
MS HARRIS:
5
6
I think about two years.
Yes.
Two and a half years.
Thank you, Ms Ryan.
I have no further questions,
Commissioner.
MR O’BRYAN:
All right.
Thank you.
Ms Ryan, I think it’s
7
highly unlikely but it remains possible that you might be
8
required back so that at this stage I will just say that
9
your examination may need to be continued at a later date
10
and is therefore adjourned to a date and time to be
11
fixed.
12
and the confidentiality notice to the extent it may be
13
applicable.
14
You remain bound by the summons you’ve received
If you’ve got any queries in that regard, you can
15
speak to the solicitor for the Commissioner, Ms Walker,
16
or to your own lawyer.
17
time during the course of this investigation to give
18
further evidence.
19
is to occur and of the date and time and you will also be
20
advised in writing when you are no longer required.
21
time now is 11.37 am.
22
sorry, ten - - -
23
MS RYAN:
24
MR O’BRYAN:
And you may be recalled at any
You will be advised in writing if that
Please stop the recording.
The
I’m
10.30.
10.37 am.
25
excused.
26
much for you - - -
Please stop the recording.
You may leave the witness box.
27
MS RYAN:
28
MR O’BRYAN:
29
THE WITNESS WITHDREW
You’re now
Thank you very
Thank you.
Thank you for your assistance.
[10.38 am]
30
1313
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
J.E. RYAN
1
2
MS HARRIS:
I understand the next witness, Commissioner, is
just outside.
3
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
4
MS HARRIS:
It is.
5
MR O’BRYAN:
All right.
Well, could – that’s Mr Gamble?
Could Mr Gamble be asked to come in.
Now, good
6
morning, Mr Gamble.
Would you mind just taking a seat
7
there for a minute.
There are some preliminary matters
8
that I have to go through and then I will ask you to
9
enter the witness box.
This examination is to be video
10
recorded.
11
Today’s date is 8 May 2015 and the time is 10.39 am.
12
name is Stephen O’Bryan.
13
Please ensure the recording is now on.
My
I am conducting this examination under powers
14
delegated to me by instrument dated 5 September 2013, a
15
copy of which has been marked as exhibit 1.
16
examination is being held and conducted under part 6 of
17
the Independent Broad-based Anti-corruption Commission
18
Act 2011 as part of an investigation under part 3 of that
19
Act.
20
This
I take this opportunity to draw your attention, Mr
21
Gamble, to the fact that this examination is
22
inquisitorial in nature which means that I’m not bound by
23
the rules of evidence and may conduct the examination in
24
such ways as I consider appropriate.
25
open to the public.
26
stage to enter the witness box, please.
27
seated, Mr Gamble.
28
MR GAMBLE:
29
MR O’BRYAN:
30
Yes, I do.
Thank you.
The examination is
Mr Gamble, I will ask you at this
Please be
Mr Gamble, do you have a middle name?
John.
Pursuant to my delegated powers, I
now require you to take an oath or to make an
31
1314
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
affirmation.
2
MR GAMBLE:
3
4
5
Which of those two options do you prefer?
Doesn’t worry me.
Nonreligious based, probably.
I’m not a religious person.
MR O’BRYAN:
Well, you have to choose.
You swear on the bible
or you make an affirmation - - -
6
MR GAMBLE:
Affirmation.
7
MR O’BRYAN:
8
GAVIN JOHN GAMBLE, AFFIRMED
9
MR O’BRYAN:
All right then.
Thank you.
[10.41 am]
Because this is an inquisitorial
10
examination, the procedure differs from procedures which
11
are adversarial in nature and of the kind you normally
12
see in the courts.
13
question you on matters relevant to the subject matter of
14
the investigation and I may also ask you some question.
15
I’m required to advise you of the nature of the matters
16
in respect of which you are to be asked questions.
17
Counsel assisting me, Ms Harris, will
They are to give evidence before this Commission in
18
relation to your knowledge of matters the subject of the
19
scope and purpose described in the preliminary
20
information and directions for public examinations in
21
Operation Ord, a copy of which, I assume, you received
22
with your summons.
23
MR GAMBLE:
24
MR O’BRYAN:
25
MR GAMBLE:
27
MR O’BRYAN:
28
Yes, I did.
You have the right to legal representation at
this examination.
26
Is that right?
Do you understand that?
Yes, I do understand that.
And I take it your happy to proceed without legal
representation?
29
MR GAMBLE:
30
MR O’BRYAN:
I am.
Now, do you recall receiving a document with your
1315
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.J. GAMBLE
1
summons headed section 121(3)(c) Statement of Rights and
2
Obligations.
3
MR GAMBLE:
4
MR O’BRYAN:
5
MR GAMBLE:
6
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes, I do.
Have you consulted a lawyer about this?
No, I have not.
All right.
Well, then I’ll ask whether you can –
7
that you be shown a copy of that Statement of Rights and
8
Obligations, please.
9
ensure that you understand the critical parts of the
10
document, so I’m required to take you through that.
11
does that look like a copy of the document that you
12
received?
13
14
15
16
MR GAMBLE:
And the legislation requires me to
Now,
To be honest similar, yes, I would – I would
assume so.
MR O’BRYAN:
And do you – did you read through that document
when you received it?
17
MR GAMBLE:
18
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes, I did.
All right.
Well, then I’ll just go through it
19
briefly.
20
can skip over the first two pages because they’re not
21
relevant for present purposes.
22
page 3, that’s not relevant anymore and if we go to page
23
4, page 4 is not relevant anymore either.
24
If you’ve got any questions you can ask me?
We’ll go to page 5.
We
In fact we can skip over
Towards the top you’ll see the
25
heading Privilege at an Examination.
26
You may claim a privilege, but you are not excused from
27
answering a question or giving information on the ground
28
that the answer information may tend to incriminate you
29
or make you liable to a penalty
30
You understand that?
1316
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.J. GAMBLE
1
MR GAMBLE:
2
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
And then the next section is important.
3
Although you are not excused from answering a question or
4
giving information on the ground that the answer to the
5
question might tend to incriminate you or make you liable
6
to a penalty, any answer information document or thing
7
that might tend to incriminate you or make you liable to
8
a penalty is not admissible in evidence against you
9
before any court or person acting judicially, except in
10
11
proceedings for perjury or giving false information.
That means telling lies here and being proven in a
12
court to have told lies.
13
Or (b) an offence against the IBAC Act, (c) an offence
14
against the Victorian Inspector Act, (c) and offence
15
against section 72 or 73 of the Protected Disclosure Act,
16
contempt of the IBAC under this Act or a disciplinary
17
process or action.
18
Do you have any questions arising out of that?
19
MR GAMBLE:
20
MR O’BRYAN:
No, I don’t.
Then over the page:
21
With limited exceptions in relation to a person who is a
22
member of police personnel the statutory secrecy
23
provisions may apply which presents you from answering a
24
questions or giving information or producing documents –
25
etcetera, and I’m not aware of any secrecy provisions
26
that would apply to what you’re going to be questioned
27
about you would have to raise any you’re aware of might
28
you be aware of any.
29
MR GAMBLE:
30
MR O’BRYAN:
I’m not aware of any.
Yes.
Now, you can see your right to complain to
1317
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.J. GAMBLE
1
the Inspectorate and what the Inspectorate’s functions
2
are and you can read that for yourself.
3
MR GAMBLE:
4
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes, thank you.
And then there are some other ancillary things on
5
the following pages which I don’t think I need to take
6
you through at the moment.
7
that the document means that you must comply with the
8
summons.
9
have a reasonable excuse not to and you have to answer
10
questions even if they may incriminate you or make you
11
liable to a penalty, but critically those answers can,
12
apart from the limited exceptions, not be used against
13
you in a court of law.
14
So the critical things are
You must answer questions truthfully unless you
So hypothetically a witness can admit committing a
15
crime, but that admission cannot be used in any
16
prosecution of a person.
17
protection that witnesses have.
18
So it’s a very important
So do you understand?
19
MR GAMBLE:
20
MR O’BRYAN:
Do you have any questions?
Yes, I do, thank you.
All right.
Thank you.
Now, one final thing I
21
have to cover because this investigation involves a
22
protected disclosure under the Protected Disclosure Act
23
I’m required to advice you of two matters.
24
would be committing a criminal offence if you disclose
25
the content or information about the content of the
26
disclosure should that you be aware of it and you may not
27
– well, not be aware of it.
28
committing a criminal offence if you disclose information
29
likely to lead to the identification of the person who
30
made the assessable disclosure.
First, you
Secondly, you would also be
You may however disclose
1318
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.J. GAMBLE
1
the content or information about the content of the
2
protected disclosure should you be aware of that to a
3
lawyer for the purpose of obtaining legal advice.
4
I’m otherwise satisfied that the limited exceptions
5
which would apply would allow such disclosure do not
6
apply in this case and I do not allow disclosure for any
7
other purpose.
8
MR GAMBLE:
9
MR O’BRYAN:
10
Do you follow?
Thank you.
Well, the examination will commence and I
authorise Ms Harris - - -
11
MS HARRIS:
12
MR O’BRYAN:
13
MS HARRIS:
14
MR O’BRYAN:
15
MS HARRIS:
Are you Gavin Gamble?
16
MR GAMBLE:
Yes, I am.
17
MS HARRIS:
And do you attend here and answer to a summons
18
Yes, Commissioner.
- - - to examine you.
Thank you, Commissioner.
Thank you, Ms Harris.
served on you?
19
MR GAMBLE:
Yes, I do.
20
MS HARRIS:
Do you have the rest of the documents?
21
I’ll just
have those handed to you.
22
MR GAMBLE:
Thank you.
23
MS HARRIS:
Can you just confirm that that was summons SE1426?
24
MR GAMBLE:
I assume.
25
MS HARRIS:
If you turn over there should be a copy of the
26
summons there?
27
MR GAMBLE:
Yes.
28
MS HARRIS:
And with that summons did you also receive a
29
30
Yes, “1426,” you said.
Yes.
confidentiality - - MR GAMBLE:
Yes.
1319
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.J. GAMBLE
1
MS HARRIS:
- - - notice dated 13 March - - -
2
MR GAMBLE:
Yes.
3
MS HARRIS:
- - - 2015?
And you’ve indicated to the
4
Commissioner already you received a notice titled section
5
121(3)(c) Statement of Rights and Obligations.
6
MR GAMBLE:
That’s correct.
7
MS HARRIS:
And did you also – with those documents receive a
8
covering letter dated 13 March 2015?
9
MR GAMBLE:
Yes, I did.
10
MS HARRIS:
I tender those, Commissioner.
11
MR O’BRYAN:
12
Well, that bundle of documents will be marked
exhibit 127.
13
EXHIBIT #127 BUNDLE OF DOCUMENTS
14
MS HARRIS:
15
Mr Gamble, you were the principal at Laburnum
Primary School for some time.
Is that right?
16
MR GAMBLE:
That’s correct.
17
MS HARRIS:
From when until when?
18
MR GAMBLE:
Technically I was an acting principal there when
19
the principal, the previous principal was ill, so I acted
20
there for two terms in 2001.
21
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
22
MR GAMBLE:
2002 I went back to the school where I was already
23
the principal and reapplied and I was substantively
24
appointed from 2002 and I worked there until three years
25
ago I – retiring almost exactly three years ago.
26
MS HARRIS:
So 2012.
Is that - - -
27
MR GAMBLE:
I beg your pardon?
28
MS HARRIS:
Until 2012.
29
MR GAMBLE:
Until 2012, yes.
30
MS HARRIS:
And how long were you a Department of Education
Is that right?
1320
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.J. GAMBLE
1
2
employee?
MR GAMBLE:
Technically in my era it was from when I was at
3
Teachers College, so that was 1971 and I was a principal
4
for the last 22 or 23 years.
5
MS HARRIS:
And whatever other schools were you principal of?
6
MR GAMBLE:
Principal of, I was principal of Manningham
7
Primary School.
I was principal of Ringwood Heights
8
Primary School.
I was principal of Laburnum Primary
9
School and I was – I shared a principal role at Antonio
10
Park Primary School for six months, I went between the
11
two schools because the principal there had passed away.
12
13
14
MS HARRIS:
And so of your time in the Department for how many
years were you a principal?
MR GAMBLE:
22 or 23, I – I actually worked in at Region for
15
two or three terms.
I was a – in that era I think it was
16
called an SEO, Senior Education Officer.
17
MS HARRIS:
Which region was that?
18
MR GAMBLE:
But I was still – sorry.
19
MS HARRIS:
Which region was that?
20
MR GAMBLE:
Eastern region.
21
22
23
I was still substantively
appointed to Laburnum at that time though so.
MS HARRIS:
My questions really relate to the time – your time
at Laburnum Primary School.
24
MR GAMBLE:
Yes.
25
MS HARRIS:
What contact did you have during that time with
26
27
Nino Napoli?
MR GAMBLE:
Basically none.
I would have gone to a number of
28
briefings where Nino was the presenter, briefings on
29
financial management, the – the SRP, global budget and
30
all that sort of stuff, fairly big stuff.
1321
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
Apart from
G.J. GAMBLE
1
that, no, my contact with Nino, I don’t recall any
2
contact.
3
him in some context like that maybe, would I have shaken
4
hands?
5
6
7
MS HARRIS:
I had never – well, if I’ve met him I’ve met
I don’t know.
Like in a seminar context is that what I
understand you to mean?
MR GAMBLE:
Yes, I – I – yes, I don’t know Nino, I know of
8
Nino Napoli, everybody knew of Nino Napoli, but I had
9
never met him to my knowledge and - - -
10
MS HARRIS:
At - - -
11
MR GAMBLE:
- - - if I had it was in passing.
12
MS HARRIS:
At some point in time though he contacted you in
13
relation to depositing some funds into the Laburnum
14
Primary School account.
Is that right?
15
MR GAMBLE:
Yes, that’s correct.
That’s - - -
16
MS HARRIS:
When was that?
17
MR GAMBLE:
Looking back now November – I think it was – it
18
was certainly 2009, but again I was unclear of that until
19
I was contacted by IBAC late last year it was a – a
20
contact that – I remember the contact, but I do know
21
quite a few details now, but the - - -
22
MS HARRIS:
How did he contact you?
23
MR GAMBLE:
He contacted me by telephone.
24
MS HARRIS:
And what did he say to you?
25
MR GAMBLE:
He asked me if I would be prepared and I can’t
26
remember the expression he used, I don’t think it was
27
banker school actually, but I think he asked if I would
28
be prepared to manage some funds on the Department’s
29
behalf.
30
he alluded to the fact that I did – Laburnum did do that
And I think, again, nine year – five years ago
1322
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.J. GAMBLE
1
2
3
for other organisations, so it was within our experience.
MS HARRIS:
So it wasn’t as a result of an application for a
grant, or anything along those lines - - -
4
MR GAMBLE:
No.
5
MS HARRIS:
- - - or anything instigated by you or your
6
7
Absolutely not.
It was for - - -
school?
MR GAMBLE:
Absolutely not.
It was very definitely, “Would
8
you be willing and able to manage some money in the short
9
term for” – I can’t recall whether he said for him, so I
10
doubt himself, but I don’t know, or the Department.
11
took it to be the Department.
12
13
14
15
MS HARRIS:
I see.
At that time, was Laburnum a banker
school?
MR GAMBLE:
Yes.
That’s an interesting term.
I’ve read that
a lot recently.
16
MS HARRIS:
Or a program coordinator school?
17
MR GAMBLE:
That expression didn’t exist at the time.
18
MS HARRIS:
Sorry.
19
20
21
MR GAMBLE:
23
MR O’BRYAN:
24
MR GAMBLE:
27
28
So back in
I hadn’t heard that expression, program
coordinator, no.
MS HARRIS:
26
Can I just stop you there.
2009, that expression didn’t exist?
22
25
I
But you had heard it - - What about banker school, had you heard of that?
I had heard the term banker school, yes.
And I
believe we were - - MS HARRIS:
What was your understanding of what a banker
school did?
MR GAMBLE:
My notion of the concept – and Laburnum was, the
29
terminology, a banker school for a number of smaller – of
30
groups, if you like.
We managed the financial aspects of
1323
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.J. GAMBLE
1
a number of organisations – possibly six, thereabouts –
2
and my understanding of that was that we would be given –
3
or us to look after some money.
4
to Laburnum as the need arose.
5
managed $2 million on behalf of a region.
6
there would be some – perhaps a conference.
7
Whitehorse principals’ network conference, for example.
8
I think the cost of that conference was around the
9
$50,000 mark.
10
Money would be credited
It wasn’t as though we
We would be –
There was a
Laburnum would be – would have that money
credited to our account.
11
MR O’BRYAN:
12
MR GAMBLE:
By who?
In that case, that would come – the money would
13
have come from eastern – I think it was a Whitehorse
14
network, so it probably came through Rob Williamson.
15
was the RNL at the time;
16
- - -
17
MR O’BRYAN:
18
regional network leader.
He
I
So is this Department money coming from
Department head office?
19
MR GAMBLE:
20
MR O’BRYAN:
21
MR GAMBLE:
This is Department money coming through, yes.
Yes.
From my knowledge, and I think this is interesting
22
in that whole banker school debate, is that that network
23
didn’t have its own administrative structure to pay
24
accounts, so they would get funded – region would get
25
funded, the network would get funded.
26
have an administrative structure, didn’t have a general
27
business manager, a bursar, any of those things.
28
way they operated – and I think this would have been
29
state-wide – would be to put the money into a school like
30
Laburnum and then we would be – invoices would be
1324
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
The network didn’t
So the
G.J. GAMBLE
1
delivered to the school and we would – and the money
2
would be identified separately;
3
line item, its own budget.
4
MS HARRIS:
it would have its own
Can I just stop you there and clarify.
We’ve
5
already heard, in terms of the school bank accounts, that
6
they would essentially a cheque account where money would
7
come – that would be used to pay invoices that came into
8
the school - - -
9
MR GAMBLE:
Yes.
10
MS HARRIS:
- - - but there was also a high yield account.
11
MR GAMBLE:
Yes.
Usually money coming into the school went
12
into the high yield account and then, as schools need to
13
draw a cheque, that would be put in operating account and
14
then it would be drawn from there.
15
money transferred between the two.
16
MS HARRIS:
And – I’m sorry.
17
MR GAMBLE:
No, no.
So there would be
I interrupted you.
I was also going to say the schools also
18
had investment accounts and that money sometimes would be
19
transferred across to an operating account to pay a bill
20
as well, but not in this instance.
21
22
MS HARRIS:
So was an investment account separate to the high
yield account?
23
MR GAMBLE:
Yes.
24
MS HARRIS:
So when you received money from the Department to
25
hold for some kind of program or conference in a banker
26
school situation, where did that money get deposited?
27
MR GAMBLE:
I’m not entirely sure that it was the same in
28
every instance and I think it would have – it may have
29
depended – my business manager did the mechanics of this.
30
If it was going to be passed on or paid very quickly, I
1325
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.J. GAMBLE
1
assume it would have been put in the operating account.
2
If it was a larger amount of money, it may have put in
3
high yield, but I don’t know.
4
MS HARRIS:
And was it usually the case that if you were
5
acting – your school was acting as a banker school for a
6
particular program or a particular conference, that there
7
would be a deposit made and, quite soon afterwards, that
8
money would be drawn upon by invoices?
9
MR GAMBLE:
Yes.
Yes.
We very – probably never sat on large
10
amounts of money for lengthy periods in time.
There
11
would have been some interest come to the school, but
12
usually relatively small, because you might only have had
13
the money for a month or two at the most.
14
MS HARRIS:
At the most.
15
MR GAMBLE:
At the most, yes.
16
MS HARRIS:
So what was your understanding then of what the
17
18
benefit was of being a banker school?
MR GAMBLE:
In an era of self-managing schools, every little
19
bit of money helps, but the interest not really.
20
didn’t pursue – well, certainly Laburnum never pursued
21
this.
22
the BRAG Network, whoever we were looking after the money
23
– and, in this case Nino – the schools always approached.
24
We never put our hand up, or volunteered, or applied.
25
many ways - - -
26
27
28
MS HARRIS:
Schools
We were always approached from Whitehorse Network,
To be a banker school;
In
is that what you’re
saying?
MR GAMBLE:
To manage – to be a banker school or to manage
29
those funds on behalf of another organisation.
30
– this sounds a bit trite almost, but it was a system
1326
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
We did it
G.J. GAMBLE
1
responsibility too.
You know, Laburnum was a fairly
2
large school with an excellent business manager.
3
solid structures and we were in a position to be able to
4
do that.
5
of money in interest.
6
kudos, to be honest, that it was flattering in a way to
7
be asked.
8
respected, and the school is functioning well and
9
administratively – and we were audited for all of my time
We had
Yes, we did – would have got some small amount
There’s also a little bit of
You think that’s a sign that the school is
10
there and that money that we were managing on behalf of
11
other groups, or banking, that was also audited and we
12
were - - -
13
MS HARRIS:
How often were you audited?
14
MR GAMBLE:
Pardon?
15
MS HARRIS:
How often were you audited?
16
MR GAMBLE:
Initially, I think they – the Department changed
17
that.
18
every couple of years, but Laburnum would have been
19
audited, I would think, from two thousand – in ’8 or ’9
20
to 2012 at least three times, I would think, but that
21
would need to be checked, but there was a very regular
22
system of auditing schools.
23
24
MS HARRIS:
We were audited every year and then it became
And was there usually money left over from the
projects that you were being used as a banker school for?
25
MR GAMBLE:
To my knowledge, no.
26
MS HARRIS:
How would other schools using the program or
27
attending the conferences know that Laburnum was the
28
banker school for that particular project?
29
30
MR GAMBLE:
For example, I will give you the Whitehorse
Network one.
We looked after money for the Whitehorse
1327
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.J. GAMBLE
1
Principals’ Network.
2
Whitehorse/Maroondah.
3
schools.
4
would table the current balance, what the money had been
5
spent on and what cheques had been written, so I gave a
6
financial report.
7
8
MS HARRIS:
I think it might have been
There would have been 25, 30
And what I would do at the monthly meetings, I
When you say “monthly meetings”, who attended
those meetings?
9
MR GAMBLE:
Every principal in the Whitehorse network.
10
MS HARRIS:
Was there anything ever official sent out, a memo,
11
some kind of email, a letter from the Department saying,
12
“For this particular project, Laburnum will be the banker
13
school.
Please direct your invoices to them.”
14
MR GAMBLE:
Not to my knowledge, no.
15
MS HARRIS:
That’s not something you had seen in your time as
16
17
18
principal?
MR GAMBLE:
No.
You’re meaning a letter from, for example, a
body - - -
19
MS HARRIS:
From the Department or from your regional office?
20
MR GAMBLE:
Saying that Laburnum is now the banker – no.
Not
21
to my knowledge, no.
22
Whitehorse Network one, at the start of the year there
23
would be a meeting and because Laburnum had done it the
24
year before, there was – if anyone else wanted to have
25
the experience.
26
if you like.
27
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
It would often – for example, the
And generally it just sort of rolled on,
I see.
So getting back to the contact from
28
Mr Napoli, it didn’t seem then, as I understand your
29
evidence, unusual for him to be making a request like
30
that of your school - - 1328
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.J. GAMBLE
1
MR GAMBLE:
No.
2
MS HARRIS:
- - - because it had been a banker school in the
3
4
past.
MR GAMBLE:
Because it was within our experience, yes.
I must
5
admit, and this is – you know, to get a call from Nino
6
who is the number 1 or number 2 man in the - - -
7
MS HARRIS:
What was his position then in 2009?
8
MR GAMBLE:
I’m not sure what it was then.
9
10
11
12
13
It was manager,
assistant manager, I think, financial resources and I
think that was it.
MS HARRIS:
Right.
And what did he say the money was going to
be used for?
MR GAMBLE:
At the time, again, when I was asked at IBAC in
14
November, I struggled to remember that actually, but it
15
was to do with professional development and to do with
16
financial – professional development in the financial
17
management areas and I took it to be some of the funds
18
would be used in a cluster, which I interpreted to be
19
Whitehorse/Maroondah cluster, but that’s what I
20
interpreted it to be.
21
22
23
MS HARRIS:
At that point in time, how many schools were
within your cluster?
MR GAMBLE:
Again, 30, round figures.
Clusters varied a
24
little bit according to restructures.
25
that group when it was as high as 40, 45 schools.
26
think around – don’t think it was that high then, but,
27
yes, that’s a reasonable approximation.
28
MS HARRIS:
I have been in
I
And was it usually the case that if you were
29
holding money as a banker school for a particular program
30
or project that your school was also involved in that
1329
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.J. GAMBLE
1
2
3
program or project in some way?
MR GAMBLE:
Usually.
I’m just trying to think of all the
examples.
4
MS HARRIS:
So in this case - - -
5
MR GAMBLE:
Generally, yes, I think so.
6
MS HARRIS:
And in this case, when Mr Napoli was asking you to
7
hold some funds, did you think you were to be involved in
8
this particular program?
9
10
MR GAMBLE:
I’m not sure I gave that a lot of thought, to be
honest, looking - - -
11
MS HARRIS:
12
you?
13
MR GAMBLE:
Did he communicate anything along those lines to
No, no, he didn’t.
I’ve read the definition since
14
that came when the money was electronically deposited and
15
it talks about – you would have that – talks about
16
professional development cluster.
17
ambiguous, I suppose.
18
and I thought, again, based on the consistency and based
19
on what was a relatively small amount of money too, I
20
didn’t think any more about that.
21
22
MS HARRIS:
Reading it now, it’s
At the time, no.
I looked at it
I will bring that document up now for you that you
just referred to.
23
MR GAMBLE:
Yes.
24
MS HARRIS:
It’s court book 11, page 15, please.
25
26
27
on the screen in a moment.
MR GAMBLE:
I’ve just got to work out which pair of glasses to
wear.
28
MS HARRIS:
That’s all right.
29
MR GAMBLE:
Yes.
30
It will be
Actually I think – I don’t think IBAC –
well, IBAC probably have always had all of this stuff.
1330
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.J. GAMBLE
1
But I think when I went back to my bursar last October,
2
November, she found this documentation filed under the
3
school so - - -
4
5
MS HARRIS:
So that’s an email from Betty Simms on behalf of
Mr Napoli.
6
MR GAMBLE:
On behalf of Nino, yes.
7
MS HARRIS:
To you on 20 August 2009.
The subject is Grant
8
Payments, and it refers to:
9
Further to our discussion, you will shortly receive a
10
grant for $15,000.
11
MR GAMBLE:
That’s correct.
12
MS HARRIS:
Continuing:
13
It’s associated with the cluster professional development
14
of financial management in the schools.
15
thank you for being a part of this program.
16
First of all, it wasn’t actually a grant going to your
17
school, was it?
18
19
20
MR GAMBLE:
No.
I would like to
No, that’s a – his terminology not mine,
obviously, but - - MS HARRIS:
Would you agree with me that the wording “grant”
21
would suggest that there has been some kind of
22
application or request by the school for funds?
23
MR GAMBLE:
Possibly, yes.
24
MS HARRIS:
And that’s obviously - - -
25
MR GAMBLE:
At the time, no, it didn’t register with – at me
26
at all.
27
MS HARRIS:
No, no, I’m asking now when you look at it.
28
MR GAMBLE:
Reading – reading now, a grant – schools usually
29
don’t get money without applying for it.
30
there would be some instances I would think of – the
1331
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
No, there –
G.J. GAMBLE
1
Department may grant, but usually you have to apply for
2
it, yes.
3
4
MS HARRIS:
And, obviously, that’s not what happened in this
case.
5
MR GAMBLE:
No, absolutely not.
6
MS HARRIS:
Certainly though, from an outsider or from an
7
auditor’s point of view, if they were to see that they
8
would – it would be fair to assume that the grant came to
9
the school as a result of a request or an application.
10
11
Would you agree with that?
MR GAMBLE:
Well, it wasn’t the way I read it, but if you were
12
looking at it externally and you’re looking at the exact
13
wording, possibly, yes.
14
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
What was, to the best of your knowledge, the
15
cluster professional development of financial management
16
program?
17
MR GAMBLE:
I have no idea what that was.
At the – at the
18
time, I would assume, given Nino’s position and given the
19
nature of the grant, I assumed it was to do with – well,
20
financial management, there was lots of professional
21
development for principals in the area of financial
22
management cluster.
23
previously called clusters.
24
speaks for itself.
25
used for – and that still reads that way to me as well.
26
So the professional development area of financial
27
management, cluster being - - -
Clusters or – networks were
Professional development
So I just assumed it would be money
28
MS HARRIS:
Within your cluster.
29
MR GAMBLE:
I interpreted it as, now looking at it, very
30
definitely my cluster.
But at the time I probably didn’t
1332
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.J. GAMBLE
1
look at it in that depth again because it had come out
2
from Nino.
3
role, it made sense to me.
4
MS HARRIS:
Given that that was very much part of his
And where it says “I would like to thank you for
5
being part of this program”, was it your understanding at
6
the time that were a part of a program?
7
MR GAMBLE:
Not actually, no, because it wasn’t actually a
8
program.
Unless you wish to describe – I mean,
9
professional development, that’s obviously a program by
10
which that was delivered.
So I would assume that it was
11
– what it was referring to.
12
professional development program.
All schools were part of a
But specifically - - -
13
MS HARRIS:
As in – as in going professional
14
MR GAMBLE:
- - - what that program was, it doesn’t say, no.
15
MS HARRIS:
Sorry, I interrupted you.
16
MR GAMBLE:
All schools were part of a professional
17
development program.
You know, we attended – principals
18
attended lots of professional development on financial
19
management.
20
assume it had a structure.
21
is talking about there, I’m not entirely sure.
Whether that existed in program form, I
But as to what program Nino
22
MS HARRIS:
But it didn’t seem unusual to you.
23
MR GAMBLE:
No, it didn’t.
24
MS HARRIS:
Because you’re always part of a development
25
program.
26
MR GAMBLE:
Yes.
27
MS HARRIS:
Is that what you’re evidence is?
28
MR GAMBLE:
Yes.
And the other thing that has – because of
29
Nino’s position, that was his role.
30
look at that and it made sense to me.
1333
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
That made no – I
Again, I’m reading
G.J. GAMBLE
1
2
it in much more detail now than I was at the time.
MS HARRIS:
Sure.
So if a request was to be made of your
3
school of this nature, you would expect it to come from
4
Mr Napoli.
Is that right?
5
MR GAMBLE:
That would be one of the sources, yes.
6
MS HARRIS:
Who else?
7
MR GAMBLE:
Well, the Whitehorse Principals’ Network
8
delivered some professional development, and some of that
9
may or may not have had a financial management.
Schools
10
also operated relatively locally on that sort of thing.
11
But, yes, that – you would expect Nino to have, if you
12
like, the overall say in the structure of that.
13
MS HARRIS:
Could we have a look at the next page, page 16,
14
please.
This shows the – that’s the remittance advice
15
from the Department relating to the deposit of
16
$15,000into the Laburnum Primary School.
17
“Network cluster POF”, I suppose professional
18
development?
It says
19
MR GAMBLE:
Yes.
20
MS HARRIS:
And it’s credited on 21 August 2009.
How many
21
times did Mr Napoli deposit funds into Laburnum Primary
22
School while you were the principal?
23
MR GAMBLE:
To the best of my knowledge, once, and that’s –
24
that’s the once I – that was in the documentation my
25
bursar – business manager found in the archives under the
26
school, and I brought into IBAC.
27
MS HARRIS:
And, ultimately, did he draw on those funds?
28
MR GAMBLE:
Yes, he did.
29
MS HARRIS:
How did that occur?
30
MR GAMBLE:
Mr Napoli forwarded an invoice.
1334
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
You would have
G.J. GAMBLE
1
the dates, but I would think a month or two after that
2
money was credited.
3
MS HARRIS:
Did – a month or two after, did you say?
4
MR GAMBLE:
I think so, yes.
5
6
7
– the documentation here.
MS HARRIS:
MR GAMBLE:
9
MS HARRIS:
11
12
13
Did any of the invoices forwarded to you relate to
goods or services provided to your school?
8
10
You – again, you would have the
No, they did not.
What schools, to the best of your recollection,
did those invoices relate to?
MR GAMBLE:
There were not – there were no schools named on
any of those invoices.
MS HARRIS:
And is it usual – if you’re the banker school and
14
you’re paying invoices for other schools, is it usual
15
that the invoices be made out to Laburnum being the
16
banker school?
17
MR GAMBLE:
Yes, that’s – and at the time I talked to my
18
business manager about that.
I believe that’s the only
19
way we could pay them.
20
addressed to us and we’re the entity being invoiced, then
21
we can pay them.
22
than that.
23
if you like, the banker school or the school looking
24
after - - -
So if they’re addressed –
But we can’t pay in any other structure
And I think that’s the whole notion of the –
25
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
26
MR GAMBLE:
That would have been the case in all of the
27
28
instances where we managed money for other groups.
MS HARRIS:
So if the service was provided to another school,
29
it still had – the invoice still had to be made out to
30
Laburnum in order for it to be paid?
1335
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.J. GAMBLE
1
2
MR GAMBLE:
Yes, it came to us.
If it came for a Whitehorse
conference or something like that - - -
3
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
4
MR GAMBLE:
- - - again, the invoice still goes to the school.
5
MS HARRIS:
Could we bring up the same court book, court book
6
11, page 6, please.
7
Innovating Visuals?
First of all, had you ever heard of
8
MR GAMBLE:
No, I had not.
9
MS HARRIS:
Did you ever seek their services or buy goods from
10
them?
11
MR GAMBLE:
No, I did not.
12
MS HARRIS:
Have you ever heard of Daniel Calleja?
13
MR GAMBLE:
14
No, that’s not – not until I went into IBAC in
October, November.
No, never heard of him.
15
MS HARRIS:
Did you request this quote at any stage?
16
MR GAMBLE:
No, I – quotes general – if there’s a – the bills
17
then was over $5000 it required a – a quote is required.
18
So this came in I assume a week or two before the
19
invoice.
20
21
22
23
MS HARRIS:
So I - - -
Right.
Do you have a specific recollection of it
coming separately to the invoice?
MR GAMBLE:
I don’t – I would assume they would had to have,
but I don’t know.
24
MS HARRIS:
You don’t know.
25
MR GAMBLE:
I have no specific recollection.
26
MS HARRIS:
And we can see that it’s quote number 0113, dated
27
July 16, 2009, to Laburnum Primary School with the
28
address, and the attention Gavin Gamble.
29
is “scanning of documents for school funding DVD”.
30
if we scroll down, please - - 1336
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
It says the job
And
G.J. GAMBLE
1
MR GAMBLE:
Which is - - -
2
MS HARRIS:
No, you can’t do that, sorry.
3
that for you.
4
$5940.
There we go.
Someone will do
For the total amount of
5
MR GAMBLE:
That’s correct.
6
MS HARRIS:
And if we go to the next page, please, page 7.
7
Commissioner, page 7 is already exhibit 60.
We can see
8
that appears to be the invoice relating to that quote.
9
MR GAMBLE:
Yes, to that quote, yes.
10
MS HARRIS:
Did you ever receive that service from Innovating
11
Visuals?
12
MR GAMBLE:
No, I did not.
13
MS HARRIS:
How did that invoice come to you?
14
MR GAMBLE:
I believe it came in the mail, but I had – that’s
15
something I checked last – when we started to chase this
16
stuff back, and hardly scientific evidence but there – we
17
found the original and it had creases in it, it had – as
18
though it had been mailed so we could not think of any
19
other way.
20
had been mailed.
21
22
23
24
25
MS HARRIS:
And my business manager was of the view it
And would that be mailed to you or to the business
manager?
MR GAMBLE:
I would assume it would have been mailed to me but
I’m not sure on that.
MS HARRIS:
And do you recall if it came with any type of
26
cover letter or memo indicating what it is and where the
27
funds were to come from to pay it?
28
29
30
MR GAMBLE:
In this instance, I believe not.
That’s where –
am I allowed to just expand a little?
MS HARRIS:
Please.
1337
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.J. GAMBLE
1
MR GAMBLE:
I’m not sure – I don’t believe it did.
The next
2
two that Laburnum received, and I’m jumping peculiar a
3
little bit, we had handwritten notes from Nino that I
4
found.
I’m not sure - - -
5
MS HARRIS:
I will take you to those in a moment.
6
MR GAMBLE:
Pardon?
7
MS HARRIS:
I will take you to those in a moment.
8
MR GAMBLE:
Yes.
9
Okay.
The relevance to that being – and I
couldn’t state this under oath, but I believe I would
10
have contacted or may have contacted Nino to check that
11
this was what it was.
12
Deirdre, my business manager, would have asked me what it
13
was.
14
recollection really of that.
15
other reason that Nino would have given me handwritten
16
notes for the next two.
17
of validation for it.
18
MS HARRIS:
I – it didn’t mean anything to us.
And I think I may have called Nino, but I have no
But I can’t think of any
So I would have sought some sort
When you received the invoice, were you aware then
19
of which school or which part of the Department receives
20
the scanning of documents?
21
MR GAMBLE:
No, I was – am not.
Was not and am not.
22
MS HARRIS:
So how then as the banker school when you get an
23
invoice for something that isn’t related to your school
24
for goods or services not provided to your school, how do
25
you check that those goods and services have been
26
provided?
27
MR GAMBLE:
In every other instance and in this instance
28
you’re largely relying on the fact that it’s coming from
29
Nino with some sort of authorisation.
30
that whole banker school concept you’re constantly paying
1338
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
Many of that –
G.J. GAMBLE
1
varying amounts of money for services and goods that you
2
don’t see.
3
you’ve received that invoice from the person who has
4
asked you to look after the money.
5
that’s what – if – it would have been a physical
6
impossibility to – because most of these things, well,
7
certainly in Laburnum’s instance and most of the things
8
we paid money for in a banker school structure were not
9
for goods, they were almost always for services.
The fact – you’re relying on the fact that
So you assumed that
10
MS HARRIS:
For services?
11
MR GAMBLE:
Mmm.
12
MS HARRIS:
And so it wasn’t a case then that you would ring
13
the individual school - - -
14
MR GAMBLE:
No.
15
MS HARRIS:
- - - and check or the service provider to check
16
- - -
17
MR GAMBLE:
No.
18
MS HARRIS:
- - - if they provided that service to - - -
19
MR GAMBLE:
No - - -
20
MS HARRIS:
So as I – sorry, I interrupted you.
21
MR GAMBLE:
No, I was just going to say in – sorry, I – in –
22
in my context – context over the number of years that
23
would have been hundreds of different - - -
24
MS HARRIS:
So it was really a time management issue - - -
25
MR GAMBLE:
Oh - - -
26
MS HARRIS:
In terms of not making those calls?
27
MR GAMBLE:
More than a time management, I think it’s
28
impractical to ring every company that’s invoiced the
29
school on behalf of a – another body.
30
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
1339
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.J. GAMBLE
1
MR GAMBLE:
But looking at it now you – yes.
2
MS HARRIS:
But from what I understand what you’re saying the
3
invoice that you received and the phone call or directive
4
from Nino Napoli was authorisation for you to pay it?
5
MR GAMBLE:
Yes.
And I would have been influenced by the fact
6
of his huge seniority and respect and reputation within
7
the organisation.
8
MS HARRIS:
9
MR O’BRYAN:
10
11
12
13
14
MS HARRIS:
I understand that tax invoice to be part of
exhibit 60, sir.
MR O’BRYAN:
60.
I’ve only got page 192 of court book 1 as
exhibit 60.
MS HARRIS:
16
MR O’BRYAN:
17
MS HARRIS:
18
MR O’BRYAN:
19
MS HARRIS:
20
MR O’BRYAN:
Sorry, what page was that, Commissioner?
192 as exhibit 60.
Yes, that’s the same document, sir.
It’s the same document is it?
Yes.
Yes.
book 11?
22
MS HARRIS:
23
MR O’BRYAN:
24
So what exhibit is that part of do you think, Ms
Harris?
15
21
Yes.
Do you want to tender the earlier one from
The earlier two pages.
Yes, please.
Yes.
Well, then pages 15 and 16 of book 11 will
be marked exhibit 128.
25
EXHIBIT #128 PAGES 15 AND 16 FROM BOOK 11
26
MS HARRIS:
Could we bring up page 8 of this court book 11,
27
please?
Thank you.
This is an email as you can see, Mr
28
Gamble, between Nino Napoli and Daniel Calleja dated 6
29
September 2009 asking for three invoices for scanning of
30
documents for school funding DVD including scanning,
1340
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.J. GAMBLE
1
programming and creating a directory for storage,
2
approximately 10 arch folders, 250 pages per book.
3
And the invoices should have an invoice and a quote a
4
week before and directing to who those invoices should be
5
made out to, Chandler Park Primary, the Department of
6
Education and to your school, Laburnum Primary School,
7
attention to you.
8
that?
9
MR GAMBLE:
Yes.
10
MS HARRIS:
Have you seen that document before?
11
MR GAMBLE:
I saw that in my first interview with IBAC in late
12
13
I’ll just let – have you had a read of
last year.
MS HARRIS:
Would you agree that that appears to be Mr Napoli
14
directing Mr Calleja to invoice the same service to three
15
different recipients in different amounts?
16
MR GAMBLE:
I agree that that’s what that appears to be.
17
MS HARRIS:
And based on those instructions that Laburnum – to
18
invoice Laburnum Primary School $5400 plus GST, that
19
appears then to relate to the invoice that was ultimately
20
sent to your school?
21
MR GAMBLE:
That would appear so, yes.
22
MS HARRIS:
We heard evidence last week from Mr Calleja that
23
invoices sent by his company, Innovating Visuals to
24
primary schools other than one primary school that isn’t
25
Laburnum were for goods and services not provided.
26
you hear that evidence or - - -
27
MR GAMBLE:
No, I did not.
28
MS HARRIS:
Were you made aware of that evidence?
29
MR GAMBLE:
No, I was not.
30
MS HARRIS:
So that’s news to you obviously?
1341
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
Did
G.J. GAMBLE
1
MR GAMBLE:
Yes, it is.
2
MS HARRIS:
Have you ever heard of Sharon Vandermeer?
3
MR GAMBLE:
No, I have not.
4
MS HARRIS:
Or On the Ball Personnel?
5
MR GAMBLE:
I should qualify, no, I had not until I went into
6
IBAC last year.
7
have never heard of those people.
8
9
MS HARRIS:
So, no, I had no previous knowledge, I
Could we bring up page 9 of court book 11, please?
Thank you.
Again, another email this time from Nino
10
Napoli dated 8 December 2009 to Sharon Vandermeer
11
directing her to invoice Laburnum Primary School,
12
attention to you, for admin service October, November
13
2009 for $4950 plus GST.
14
services from On The Ball at your school?
Did you ever receive admin
15
MR GAMBLE:
No, we did not.
16
MS HARRIS:
And if we go to page 19, please.
If we just
17
scroll down, it’s an invoice from On The Ball to your
18
school, Laburnum Primary School for the amount of $5445,
19
as Mr Napoli instructed for services in October and
20
November 2009.
How did that invoice come to you?
21
MR GAMBLE:
I believe - - -
22
MS HARRIS:
Sorry, I should ask.
23
MR GAMBLE:
Again, I would have seen it when we got it, but I
24
Have you seen that before?
had no memory of it, none.
25
MS HARRIS:
And how did it come to you?
26
MR GAMBLE:
I believe again because of the – the folds in the
27
– in the paper that would have come by via mail.
28
no memory of it when I first went to IBAC late last year.
29
When I went back to my previous to my previous school
30
with the new principal’s permission, my business manager
1342
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
I had
G.J. GAMBLE
1
was able to find that in the files underneath the school
2
along with a handwritten note from Nino that came with
3
that particular invoice.
4
5
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
Now, you’ve indicated that those services
were not received by your school.
6
MR GAMBLE:
No, they were not.
7
MS HARRIS:
Were you told anything about where those services
8
went?
9
MR GAMBLE:
No, I - - -
10
MS HARRIS:
Who got those services?
11
MR GAMBLE:
No, I was not.
12
MR O’BRYAN:
13
MR GAMBLE:
15
MR O’BRYAN:
16
MS HARRIS:
18
Do
you recognise those initials?
14
17
Someone’s initialled under a proof payment.
That’s my initial.
Yes.
And what was it then that caused you to approve
the payment of that invoice?
MR GAMBLE:
I approved the payment for that invoice because I
19
had the note from Nino to me authorising it and again
20
because Nino was the man in charge or this entire area in
21
Victoria.
22
that he had put into our school account to pay for it, so
23
I just assumed it was all appropriate.
24
MS HARRIS:
And it was consistent with I had the funds
And how did you know that this invoice was to be
25
paid out of the funds that he had deposited in your
26
school for professional development?
27
28
29
30
MR GAMBLE:
Again, the handwritten note I think you will –
that came with this.
MS HARRIS:
Yes, can we bring up page 17, please?
Is that the
note you’re referring to?
1343
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.J. GAMBLE
1
MR GAMBLE:
2
MS HARRIS:
3
Gavin, as discussed, please arrange payment.
4
MR GAMBLE:
5
MS HARRIS:
6
Yes.
Yes.
One more coming for about 1100 printing, thanks, Nino.
7
MR GAMBLE:
That’s correct, yes.
8
MS HARRIS:
So I’m sorry, what was it that made you think that
9
10
related to the deposit for professional development?
MR GAMBLE:
Because I would have no other funds to pay that
11
with.
12
always operated with every other arrangement that we had,
13
the money had been deposited in the school.
14
where we took the money from, from the money that Nino
15
had put in the school, we certainly wouldn’t have taken
16
it from school funds.
17
MS HARRIS:
To me that was consistent with the way we had
We – that’s
And again, was it usual for the process to be so
18
informal in the sense that just a handwritten note was
19
sent with an invoice saying, “Please pay this”?
20
MR GAMBLE:
Looking at that now, yes, it’s informal, but
21
again, it – nothing else had been informal and the money
22
had been directly debited correctly through the system.
23
Everything, the invoices, the quote, everything else had
24
been, I, looking at it now and I really can’t recall, I
25
would have assumed I just took that as an informal
26
addition because we were providing a service.
27
yes, you are correct, it is – it does have an informal
28
nature looking at it in this context now.
29
30
MS HARRIS:
Yes, but
Yes.
And was that the usual practice with you as a
banker school - - 1344
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.J. GAMBLE
1
MR GAMBLE:
No.
2
MS HARRIS:
- - - if you got an invoice that it would be just
3
with a note saying - - -
4
MR GAMBLE:
No.
5
MS HARRIS:
“Please pay”?
6
MR GAMBLE:
Not usually.
For example, when we did it from
7
Eastern Region they would all be delivered in person or –
8
usually in person by a staff member who would bring a
9
folder.
So it was a more personal – personal contact.
10
MS HARRIS:
From - - -
11
MR GAMBLE:
Sometimes they would come in electronically.
12
MS HARRIS:
From the staff member of the school - - -
13
MR GAMBLE:
Yes, from - - -
14
MS HARRIS:
- - - that the service had been provided to?
15
MR GAMBLE:
No, from the Eastern Region, for example.
16
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
17
MR GAMBLE:
Sometimes they would come in electronically, but
18
19
an informal note like that is unusual, yes.
MS HARRIS:
All right.
And if we can go to page 18, please?
20
That’s the payment voucher in relation to that On The
21
Ball invoice.
22
MR GAMBLE:
Yes, it is.
23
MS HARRIS:
Your signature next to school principal?
24
MR GAMBLE:
Yes.
25
MS HARRIS:
Your signature next to “school principal”?
26
MR GAMBLE:
Yes.
27
MS HARRIS:
And your business manager or bursar’s signature?
28
MR GAMBLE:
Yes.
29
30
Yes, it is.
Yes.
Yes, it is.
Yes.
And the school council nominee on that one
is my assistant principal.
MS HARRIS:
Right.
And would the assistant – I notice that
1345
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.J. GAMBLE
1
the detail in terms of the credit voucher says
2
“administrative services”, would the assistant principal
3
have known that those administrative services weren’t
4
provided to your school?
5
6
MR GAMBLE:
Yes, she would have.
same information as me.
She would have received the
We also, as a point of - - -
7
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
8
MR GAMBLE:
Anything we paid out any of our vouchers always
9
went through the finance committee of the school and
10
anything over $5000 was always identified separately as
11
well and that would be discussed.
12
treasurer usually would ask what that was for.
13
So a – a parent, the
I can’t recall my words now but I would – it was
14
clearly noted that that was from money that we had
15
received from the Department of Education, that it was
16
not – we were not paying that money out of school funds
17
and that it was what it’s for in this case, professional
18
development or whatever the – so - - -
19
MS HARRIS:
So parents on the school council would be aware
20
that when money is being paid from a banker school for
21
invoices in relation to services at another school,
22
parents would be aware of that.
Is that right?
23
MR GAMBLE:
Yes, they would.
24
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
25
MR GAMBLE:
Or parents on school council and parents on the
26
finance committee would have been – yes, that was – that
27
was discussed quite openly because it would be questioned
28
quite often, “What – what is that?”
29
sometimes there much larger amounts of money than that,
30
for example.
You know, there’s –
So the parents, in particular the treasurer
1346
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.J. GAMBLE
1
would be quite interested as to what that amount of money
2
was for.
3
MS HARRIS:
Of course.
4
MR GAMBLE:
And we were always able to explain what it was for
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
and that was accepted.
MS HARRIS:
How did you keep tabs of what was left of the
$15,000 Mr Napoli had deposited?
MR GAMBLE:
The – the money was put into a subprogram kept
separate and it was very – subtract $4990 from the
$15,000.
MS HARRIS:
When you say “kept separate”, it wasn’t in a
separate bank account, was it?
MR GAMBLE:
Not in a separate bank account.
No, it was
14
identified separately as all school – all school budgets
15
are.
16
MS HARRIS:
17
And when you say “identified separately”, you mean
on the computer system?
18
MR GAMBLE:
Yes, yes.
19
MS HARRIS:
So it would - - -
20
MR GAMBLE:
A subprogram, yes.
21
MS HARRIS:
It would be still mixed in with the school moneys.
22
23
Is that right?
MR GAMBLE:
It would be, yes.
But it would be clearly
24
identified and separately tagged, if you like, or in a
25
separate subprogram.
26
finance report to council, those subprograms are a
27
running total, if you like, and that would be the same
28
for the phys ed budget, the reading budget.
29
be the same for all of our budgets and that one would be
30
identified separately.
So every time we presented a
1347
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
That would
G.J. GAMBLE
1
2
MS HARRIS:
Did Mr Napoli, at any time, make contact with you
to find out how much was left - - -
3
MR GAMBLE:
No.
4
MS HARRIS:
- - - of the $15,000?
5
MR GAMBLE:
No.
6
7
I actually never heard from – in person from
Mr Napoli after the first phone call.
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
Could we bring up page 10, please.
8
go up to – thank you.
9
Napoli.
10
2009.
Again, another email from Mr
This time to Carlo Squillacioti dated 8 December
Have you ever heard of Carlo Squillacioti?
11
MR GAMBLE:
No.
12
MS HARRIS:
Or Encino Proprietary Limited?
13
MR GAMBLE:
No, not until my first meeting at IBAC in
14
Can we
October/November - - -
15
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
16
MR GAMBLE:
At that stage, no, I had no knowledge of any of
17
18
19
But at that stage in 2009?
those people.
MS HARRIS:
Certainly didn’t seek any goods or services from
Encino Proprietary Limited?
20
MR GAMBLE:
Absolutely not.
21
MS HARRIS:
And, again, it appears to be an email asking for
22
the preparation of three invoices under the name of
23
Encino for graphic design and printing of publications,
24
including editing publications of school financial
25
management and training government schools for three
26
different schools, and yours is the last one there.
27
Laburnum Primary School for the amount of 1100 plus GST.
28
This would be consistent with the handwritten note Mr
29
Napoli gave you - - -
30
MR GAMBLE:
Yes.
1348
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.J. GAMBLE
1
2
3
MS HARRIS:
- - - saying there’s another invoice coming for
$1100.
MR GAMBLE:
And I believe there was – a handwritten note came
4
with this invoice as well or the one you’re probably
5
about to show.
6
MS HARRIS:
So, yes, it’s consistent.
And, again, it appears to be instructing Mr
7
Squillacioti to charge three different schools for the
8
same services.
Do you agree with that?
9
MR GAMBLE:
Certainly looks that way, yes.
10
MS HARRIS:
In different amounts.
11
MR GAMBLE:
Yes.
12
MS HARRIS:
Did you ever see a publication called Financial
13
Management and Training in Government Schools?
14
MR GAMBLE:
No, I did not.
15
MS HARRIS:
Could you think of any reason why three different
16
17
schools would pay for that publication?
MR GAMBLE:
I would assume three – again, this is only
18
conjecture, obviously.
19
different schools didn’t know in any shape or form that
20
the invoice had gone to three schools.
21
each of those schools would have assumed that they were
22
the only people receiving that invoice.
23
publication is consistent with what the money was so I
24
can only assume that the three schools did not know of
25
each other’s existence in terms of managing money for the
26
Department through Nino.
27
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
I would assume the three
I would assume
The name of that
Could we have page 22, please.
That then –
28
if we can just scroll down a little bit.
29
appears to be the tax invoice from Encino as directed to
30
your school.
1349
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
That then
G.J. GAMBLE
1
MR GAMBLE:
Yes.
2
MS HARRIS:
For $1100 and then they’ve added GST for the
3
services detailed by Mr Napoli.
4
seen that before?
5
6
MR GAMBLE:
Yes, I did.
How did that – have you
I would have seen that when it was
received but I don’t recall it and I saw it again - - -
7
MS HARRIS:
Is that - - -
8
MR GAMBLE:
- - - when I found it - - -
9
MS HARRIS:
Is that your signature under the “approved for
10
11
payment”?
MR GAMBLE:
No.
12
“GG” there.
13
Jean.
That would be – partly it is, yes.
There’s a
Looks as though it has also been signed by
I don’t know why that would be the case.
14
MS HARRIS:
How did that invoice come to you, do you recall?
15
MR GAMBLE:
Again, I would assume by mail with another
16
17
18
handwritten note from Nino.
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
Can we look at page 20, please.
Is that the
handwritten note you’re referring to?
19
MR GAMBLE:
That’s – that’s correct.
20
MS HARRIS:
And you approved payment of that invoice?
21
MR GAMBLE:
Yes, I did.
22
MS HARRIS:
Again, not publications received by your school.
23
That’s what you’ve indicated?
24
MR GAMBLE:
My school did not receive that publication, no.
25
MS HARRIS:
Do you know if they were received by any school at
26
all?
27
MR GAMBLE:
I do not know if they were received by any school.
28
MS HARRIS:
Or if they were received by the Department.
29
MR GAMBLE:
Not to my knowledge.
30
MS HARRIS:
And did you make any inquiries as to - - 1350
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.J. GAMBLE
1
MR GAMBLE:
No, I did not.
2
MS HARRIS:
- - - who that service was provided to?
3
MR GAMBLE:
No, I did not.
4
MS HARRIS:
So what was your – what do you consider your
5
authorisation to be, then, to go ahead and pay that
6
invoice?
7
MR GAMBLE:
Again, I assume because I had the invoice which
8
seemed consistent with the initial funding that we had –
9
or the initial – his word – grant from Nino.
The fact
10
that I had authorisation personally from Nino to pay it
11
and it came – there were sufficient funds in that account
12
to pay it and Nino – again Nino is the person in charge
13
of this stuff in the state.
14
to pay that account.
15
16
MS HARRIS:
And by “authorisation”, you’re referring to the
handwritten note?
17
MR GAMBLE:
Yes.
18
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
19
MR O’BRYAN:
20
It seems to say that note, “This is the” – it’s
either “lost” or “last” but I assume it’s “last” - - -
21
MS HARRIS:
“Last”.
22
MR GAMBLE:
I assume it’s “last”.
23
MR O’BRYAN:
24
I assume that was sufficient
- - - “invoice”.
So that was mopping up the last
of the money.
25
MR GAMBLE:
26
MR O’BRYAN:
27
MR GAMBLE:
Yes.
28
MS HARRIS:
Could we have page 21, please.
29
30
The way, yes, I read that.
Just before Christmas.
That’s the payment
voucher, isn’t it, in relation to that invoice?
MR GAMBLE:
That’s correct.
1351
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.J. GAMBLE
1
MS HARRIS:
For Encino, signed by you again.
2
MR GAMBLE:
That’s correct.
3
MS HARRIS:
Is that your assistant principal also?
4
MR GAMBLE:
Yes, that is.
5
MS HARRIS:
And your business manager.
6
MR GAMBLE:
Business manager, yes.
7
MS HARRIS:
What became of the money left – well, I should ask
8
you first of all, were any other invoices sent to
9
Laburnum that you can recall?
10
MR GAMBLE:
Not to my knowledge, no.
I believe there were
11
three – and my business manager is quite exceptional with
12
this – we – we believe they are the only invoices that
13
ever came to the school.
14
worked it out because, again, I hadn’t been at school for
15
three years but I would assume there would be 1000 –
16
$1500 left over that would still be identified in the
17
school budgets, kept separate, but I don’t know that.
Mathematically, I haven’t
18
MS HARRIS:
I’m advised it’s 2400.
19
MR GAMBLE:
Is it?
20
MS HARRIS:
Were you provided with any instructions as to what
21
22
23
24
Okay, yes.
was to happen to that money?
MR GAMBLE:
I have had no communication whatsoever from Nino
after that last note just preceding Christmas.
MS HARRIS:
Was it usual that if there was anything left over
25
from a grant in relation to a program, that the banker
26
school could keep it?
27
MR GAMBLE:
I would need to check that from – it would be
28
unusual for there to be significant sums of money left
29
over.
30
things were, but our previous dealings certainly I – I
I don’t know how dollar perfect some of these
1352
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.J. GAMBLE
1
would assume – I would need to check that, but I would
2
assume they were very close to being dollar perfect.
3
MS HARRIS:
4
MR O’BRYAN:
5
So - - So did you not think or your business manager
think to chase up Mr Napoli over the remaining funds?
6
MR GAMBLE:
7
MR O’BRYAN:
I’m sorry, I missed the question.
Did you not think or your business manager think
8
to chase up Mr Napoli as to what you’re to do with the
9
surplus?
10
11
MR GAMBLE:
MR O’BRYAN:
13
MR GAMBLE:
15
16
I – once we paid
the invoice, I never gave it another thought.
12
14
I certainly didn’t think of it.
Yes.
As for Deirdre I’m not sure but I could – I can
check that, obviously.
MR O’BRYAN:
I take it you’re pretty busy as a school
principal.
17
MR GAMBLE:
Yes.
18
MS HARRIS:
So you would expect that the money would just be
19
still within the account.
20
MR GAMBLE:
I think the money would still be there, yes.
21
MS HARRIS:
Did Laburnum Primary School receive any other
22
grants after 2009?
23
MR GAMBLE:
From Nino or - - -
24
MS HARRIS:
At all?
25
MR GAMBLE:
Sorry, yes, grants in general, lots of them.
26
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
27
MR GAMBLE:
A rainwater grant for this – fairly mundane stuff
28
here, but a rainwater fitting, toilets for the hall, we
29
received a solar energy grant.
30
MS HARRIS:
There was a significant grant of $1.5 million is
1353
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.J. GAMBLE
1
2
that right?
MR GAMBLE:
Yes, thereabouts.
That was the BER project,
3
although we never actually got – we never took hold of
4
that money.
5
Revolution money, the schools never actually got the
6
money.
7
the bills were paid.
8
by the department, so schools didn’t actually have that
9
money in their accounts.
10
11
12
13
14
MS HARRIS:
The BER project, the Building and Education
They had the money in a notional budget and then
We had a project manager appointed
Was Mr Napoli involved at all in that particular
project?
MR GAMBLE:
I wouldn’t think so.
No, I believe that was
federal money – federal government money.
MS HARRIS:
And I think you have indicated already that after
15
that handwritten note accompanying the invoice you
16
haven’t had any further contact with Mr Napoli?
17
MR GAMBLE:
No, I have not.
18
MS HARRIS:
I have no further questions, Commissioner.
19
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes, thank you.
Mr Gamble, it’s possible, but I
20
think quite unlikely that you would be required again.
21
But just in case, I need to stand you over to a date to
22
be fixed.
23
confidentiality notice to the extent it may still be
24
applicable.
25
if you could speak to Ms Walker, the solicitor for the
26
Commission.
27
during the course of this investigation to give further
28
evidence.
29
occur, and of the date and time.
30
advised in writing when you are no longer required.
You remain bound by the summons, and the
If you have got any queries in that regard,
You may therefore be recalled at any time
You will be advised in writing if that is to
You will also be
1354
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
Time
G.J. GAMBLE
1
now is 11.33 am.
2
free to leave the witness box.
3
4
MS HARRIS:
Please stop the recording.
Commissioner, I’m just reminded that I didn’t
tender the documents I referred to in court book 11.
5
MR O’BRYAN:
6
MS HARRIS:
They are page - - -
7
MR O’BRYAN:
8, 9 – well - - -
8
MS HARRIS:
9
MR O’BRYAN:
10
MS HARRIS:
11
MR O’BRYAN:
12
MS HARRIS:
13
Yes.
6.
- - - 8, 9, 10 - - I think also 6, 8, 9 - - 17 – 17, 18, 19, 22 and 21 – 21, 22.
Yes, that’s right.
And I have also got 10,
Commissioner.
14
MR O’BRYAN:
15
MS HARRIS:
16
MR O’BRYAN:
17
MS HARRIS:
18
MR O’BRYAN:
19
And sorry?
10.
And you have got – yes, yes, 10 I have got.
Thank you.
Okay.
So pages 8 to 10, 17 to 19 and 21, 22 will
be marked as exhibit 129.
20
MS HARRIS:
21
MR O’BRYAN:
22
MS HARRIS:
23
EXHIBIT #129 PAGES FROM COURT BOOK 11
24
MR O’BRYAN:
That should include page 6, Commissioner.
Okay.
Page 6 as well.
Thank you.
All right.
Thanks for that.
25
leave the witness box.
26
Gamble.
27
You are now
All right, you may
Thank you for your assistance, Mr
THE WITNESS WITHDREW
[11.34 am]
28
29
1355
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.J. GAMBLE
1
MR O’BRYAN:
I understand the next examinee is Mr Conway, and
2
Mr Conway is represented, as I understand it, by Mr
3
Andreou.
Good morning, Mr Andreou.
4
MR ANDREOU:
Good morning, Commissioner.
5
MR O’BRYAN:
Is your client nearby?
6
MR ANDREOU:
He is outside this court room, Commissioner.
7
MR O’BRYAN:
He has been called.
8
How long do you think
roughly he will be?
9
MR ANDREOU:
He is only outside these first doors.
10
MR O’BRYAN:
He is outside.
11
much.
12
MR ANDREOU:
Thank you.
13
MR O’BRYAN:
Mr Conway, good morning.
Yes, all right.
Thanks very
Well, have a seat at the bar table.
Please take a seat
14
there for a minute, and I will ask you to enter the
15
witness box in a few minutes.
16
video recorded.
17
date is 8 May 2015, and the time is 11.36 am.
18
Steven O’Bryan.
19
powers delegated to me by instrument dated 5 September
20
2013, a copy of which has already been marked exhibit 1.
21
This examination is being held and conducted under part 6
22
of the Independent Broad-based Anti-corruption Commission
23
Act 2011 as part of an investigation under part 3 of that
24
Act.
25
This examination is to be
Please commence the recording.
Today’s
My name is
I am conducting this examination under
I take this opportunity to draw your attention, Mr
26
Conway, and to your counsel that this examination is
27
inquisitorial in nature.
28
by the rules of evidence and that I can regulate the
29
conduct of the examination as I consider appropriate.
30
The examination is open to the public.
This means that I am not bound
1356
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
Mr Conway, you
DISCUSSION
1
may be represented by Mr Andreou, however the IBAC Act
2
gives me the power to review that decision in certain
3
circumstances, and we can talk about this afterwards, Mr
4
Andreou, but you will be given an opportunity at an
5
appropriate stage should you wish to exercise it to ask
6
your client any questions, to clarify anything and to
7
otherwise make a submission to statement.
8
back to that later.
We will come
9
MR ANDREOU:
Certainly, Commissioner.
10
MR O’BRYAN:
Mr Andreou, I am required to inform you as Mr
11
Conway’s legal representative of certain non-disclosure
12
requirements which apply to you pursuant to subsections
13
131(d) and 44(2)(b) respectively of the IBAC Act, namely
14
you may not disclose the restricted matter specified in
15
the confidentiality notice received by your client and
16
dated 13 March 2015 to any other person while the notice
17
has effect.
18
disclose the restricted matter specified in the
19
confidentiality notice in accordance with a direction or
20
authorisation given by me or another appropriately
21
qualified IBAC officer, or for the purposes of complying
22
with a legal duty of disclosure, or a professional
23
obligation arising from your professional representation.
24
To do so is a criminal offence.
You may
Mr Conway, I would ask you now to please enter the
25
witness box, and please be seated, Mr Conway.
26
have a middle name, Mr Conway?
27
MR CONWAY:
28
MR O’BRYAN:
29
MR CONWAY:
30
MR O’BRYAN:
Do you
Boyd.
B-o-y-d?
That’s correct.
Pursuant to my delegated powers, I now require
1357
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
2
you to take an oath or make an affirmation.
Which of
those two options do you prefer?
3
MR CONWAY:
An affirmation, thank you.
4
DOUGLAS BOYD CONWAY, AFFIRMED
[11.39 am]
5
MR O’BRYAN:
6
examination, the procedure differs from procedure which
7
are adversarial in nature, Mr Conway.
8
me, Mr Woodward will question you on matters relevant to
9
the investigation, and I may also ask you some questions.
10
And as you have heard, at an appropriate stage, should he
11
want to, Mr Andreou will be able to ask you questions or
12
to say something on your behalf.
13
matters I must deal with are as follows:
14
to advise you of the nature of the matters in respect of
15
which you are to be asked questions.
16
evidence before this Commission in relation to you
17
knowledge of matters, the subject of the scope and
18
purpose described in the preliminary information and
19
directions for public examinations in Operation Ord, a
20
copy of which you would have received.
21
time you were served with those summons to attend today,
22
did you also receive a document titled “Section 121(3)(c)
23
Statement of Rights and Obligations”?
24
MR CONWAY:
25
MR O’BRYAN:
26
Because this is an inquisitorial
Counsel assisting
Some other preliminary
I am required
They are to give
Mr Conway, at the
I did.
And has either Mr Andreou or another lawyer been
through that document with you and explained it to you?
27
MR CONWAY:
28
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes, they have.
Thank you very much.
Final thing is this.
For
29
both you, Mr Conway and you Mr Andreou, because this
30
investigation involves a protected disclosure under the
1396
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
Protected Disclosures Act, I am required to advise you of
2
two matters.
3
offence if you disclosures the content or information
4
about the content of the disclosure.
5
also be committing a criminal offence if you disclose
6
information likely to lead to the identification of a
7
person who made the assessable disclosure.
8
course assumes you know those things.
9
First you would be committing a criminal
Secondly, you would
That of
But you may not.
Mr Conwy, for your part you may disclose the content,
10
or information about the content of the protected
11
disclosure to Mr Andreou for the purpose of obtaining
12
legal advice, or as part of your representation here.
13
am otherwise satisfied that the limited exceptions which
14
would allow such disclosure do not apply in this case,
15
and I do not allow disclosure for any other purpose.
16
Andreou, for your part you may disclose such information
17
for the purpose of complying with a legal duty of
18
disclosure or a professional obligation arising from your
19
professional relationship with your client.
20
will commence, and I authorise Mr Woodward to conduct it.
21
Thank you, Mr Woodward.
22
MR WOODWARD:
Thank you, Commissioner.
I
Mr
Examination
Mr Conway, do you
23
attend here today pursuant to a summons served on you by
24
IBAC?
25
MR CONWAY:
26
MR WOODWARD:
That’s correct.
I will have handed to you a bundle of copy
27
documents, the top of one of which should be a covering
28
letter.
29
you received, number SE1396?
30
MR CONWAY:
And then beneath that is a copy of the summons
You see that?
Yes.
1397
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
2
MR WOODWARD:
Then a confidentiality notice that came with the
summons?
3
MR CONWAY:
4
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
And finally the document that the Commissioner
5
asked you about a moment ago, the Section 121(3)(c) State
6
of Rights and Obligations?
7
MR CONWAY:
8
MR WOODWARD:
9
10
12
MR WOODWARD:
MR CONWAY:
15
MR WOODWARD:
18
Yes.
Yes.
And those are copies of the documents you
received?
14
17
There’s a covering letter on the
top dated 13 March?
MR CONWAY:
16
And you also received the covering letter with
that, is that correct?
11
13
Correct.
They are, yes.
Thank you.
I will tender those please,
Commissioner.
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
Well, that bundle of documents will be
marked exhibit 130.
19
EXHIBIT #130 BUNDLE OF DOCUMENTS
20
MR WOODWARD:
Mr Conway, those two microphones you have before
21
you, the one on your left is a recording one, and the one
22
on your right is the one that amplifies.
23
perhaps easier for you and for us if you’re talking into
24
that one more than the other.
25
MR CONWAY:
26
MR WOODWARD:
Certainly.
So it might be
Thank you.
Thank you.
Mr Conway, you were appointed as the
27
– or your current position is as the principal of Kings
28
Park Primary School, is that correct?
29
MR CONWAY:
30
MR WOODWARD:
Not correct.
Not?
Okay.
1398
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
MR CONWAY:
2
MR WOODWARD:
3
MR CONWAY:
4
MR HILL:
5
MR CONWAY:
6
MR WOODWARD:
7
I have retired.
February this year.
February of this year?
MR CONWAY:
9
MR WOODWARD:
MR CONWAY:
12
MR WOODWARD:
MR CONWAY:
15
MR WOODWARD:
17
18
So until February this year you were
That’s correct.
Thank you.
Yes.
And you have held that position –
Correct.
Yes.
Yes.
And prior to that you held a number of
other positions as a principal?
14
16
All right.
you had held that position since 1998?
11
13
Mmm.
the principal of Kings Park Primary School?
8
10
When did you retire?
Yes.
Yes.
Could you take us through those briefly?
So it was immediately before Kings Park?
MR CONWAY:
Immediately before Kings Park would be Brunswick
North Primary School?
19
MR WOODWARD:
20
MR CONWAY:
21
MR WOODWARD:
22
MR CONWAY:
Yes.
As principal?
Yes, as principal.
Yes.
And before that?
Before that I was six months assistant principal
23
at Coburg North.
24
assistant principal at Brunswick North West for four
25
years – or three and a half years.
26
principal at Fawkner Primary School, and before that I
27
was acting principal at Rosebank Primary School, I think
28
it was, for one and a half years.
29
30
MR WOODWARD:
Okay.
And then I was the equivalent of the
Before that I was
And you have been with the department in
one capacity or another since 1967?
1399
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
2
MR CONWAY:
Well, ’65 if you count the studentship in those
days.
3
MR WOODWARD:
4
MR CONWAY:
5
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
So 50 years.
Now, you, I understand had some, well, at least
6
some knowledge of Mr Nino Napoli from about the early
7
1980s, is that correct?
8
9
10
11
12
13
MR CONWAY:
Probably late 80s more likely ..... have a vague
recollection, but yes.
MR WOODWARD:
And you – those – your dealings with him, did
they increase over the years?
MR CONWAY:
Yes, I participated in – I was a member of the
Victorian Primary Principals Association.
14
MR WOODWARD:
15
MR CONWAY:
Yes.
And around the time Jeff Kennett came to office
16
there was a proposal to introduce school global funding
17
where 90 per cent of the funding was to go directly to
18
schools.
19
of the department’s finance section responsible for
20
developing, I suppose, and implementing that initiative
21
and I was a member of a reference group of principals and
22
key stakeholders involved in that project.
23
MR WOODWARD:
It was a new initiative.
Nino Napoli was part
And that was, among other things, was it –
24
included, I understand, a trip that you attended with a
25
number of other principals and other officers from the
26
department to Edmonton in Canada where they had had a
27
similar system running?
28
MR CONWAY:
Yes.
Evidently, the system adopted was based on
29
the Edmonton system and it was proposed to the
30
government, as I understand, by Professor Brian Corbel
1400
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
from Melbourne University, and he was the – I suppose,
2
the consultant – the independent consultant and then
3
there were – the department set up a committee to
4
investigate and assist with feedback into how it could be
5
adapted to suit Victorian circumstances.
6
7
MR WOODWARD:
other principals, including Mr Peter Paul - - -
8
MR CONWAY:
9
MR WOODWARD:
10
11
12
And on that trip, as I say, were a number of
Correct, yes.
- - - who, at the time, was the principal of
Cowes Primary School.
MR CONWAY:
Yes.
And he – I think he was also president of
the Victorian Principal’s Association.
13
MR WOODWARD:
14
MR CONWAY:
15
MR WOODWARD:
16
MR CONWAY:
Yes.
And Mr Jeff Rosewarne was on that trip?
Yes.
Yes.
And what was his position at the time?
I think he was the person in charge of the
17
financial implementation of the project;
18
the mechanics of it, I suppose.
19
MR WOODWARD:
development of
And so it was in that capacity, namely as a
20
member of that association, that you then had more
21
frequent dealings with Mr Napoli?
22
MR CONWAY:
23
MR WOODWARD:
Correct, yes.
And that continued, didn’t it, up until – or
24
until 2013 through your membership of the workforce
25
bridging committee.
26
27
28
MR CONWAY:
Yes.
Sometime in 2000, I was appointed to the
workforce bridging panel.
MR WOODWARD:
It’s an advisory panel, yes.
And that’s an advisory panel to assist
29
particularly schools that are struggling to meet budget;
30
is that - - 1401
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
MR CONWAY:
Well, it’s a principal’s responsibility to keep a
2
school in surplus and unfortunately some schools run into
3
deficit.
4
called workforce bridging.
5
because of a decision made by the principal, in terms of
6
staffing, then they would be ineligible to receive
7
workforce bridging.
8
sudden, unexpected fall in enrolment forecast – you
9
forecast 1000 kids, you got 900, you’ve employed staff to
And if – they could then apply for what was
If the school was in deficit
However, if it was as a result of a
10
– for 1000 kids, you would – could be left with a
11
deficit.
12
principals and to make recommendation to whether they
13
would be eligible to receive funding from the department.
14
15
16
17
18
19
MR WOODWARD:
MR CONWAY:
He chaired that committee, but was often not
present due to other commitments.
MR WOODWARD:
Right.
But you did see him from time to time in
that period?
MR CONWAY:
21
yes.
23
And Mr Napoli had a role in relation to that
committee?
20
22
So our job was to review applications made by
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
Usually I would see him when he was present,
Yes.
And I think you said, or agreed that that
continued until around 2013?
24
MR CONWAY:
25
MR WOODWARD:
26
MR CONWAY:
27
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
2012/13, I think - - -
Mr - - - - - I was – anyway.
Thank you.
Go on.
Mr Conway, have you discussed this
28
investigation with anyone, that is, the IBAC
29
investigation in the last 12 to 18 months?
30
MR CONWAY:
Not – no.
I haven’t discussed the investigation,
1402
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
no.
2
MR WOODWARD:
3
MR CONWAY:
4
MR WOODWARD:
5
With – sorry – yes.
Yes.
With family, yes, yes.
Have you discussed it with anyone else in
the department?
6
MR CONWAY:
7
MR WOODWARD:
8
MR CONWAY:
9
What, not even with a family member?
No.
Okay.
Sorry.
And you’ve – in particular - - I – when I appeared for the interview –
investigation interview, I contacted the industrial
10
officer to advise I was to be interviewed and he gave me
11
a number to ring in the department.
12
the – is it the – I can’t think of his name.
13
responsible for - - -
14
MR WOODWARD:
15
MR CONWAY:
16
17
So I did speak to
He was
Coordinating that process?
Yes, yes.
And I spoke to that person and they
just gave – processed information.
MR WOODWARD:
And I suppose most particularly, you have not
18
had any conversations with either Mr Napoli or Mr
19
Rosewarne in relation to the investigation in that
20
period?
21
MR CONWAY:
22
MR WOODWARD:
23
24
No conversations with those at all.
Have you spoken to either of them in any other
context in the last 18 months or so?
MR CONWAY:
I think I rang Mr Napoli when I heard – I had been
25
overseas – I heard that he had suffered a stroke or
26
something to that effect, and I did ring to see how he
27
was.
28
MR WOODWARD:
29
MR CONWAY:
30
Right.
But there was no – it was a very brief discussion
and no discussion about – I wasn’t aware of the IBAC
1403
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
2
investigation when I spoke to him.
MR WOODWARD:
Right.
Did he say anything to you at that time
3
about the process by which, we will come to in a moment,
4
that your school was sent invoices for payment by him?
5
MR CONWAY:
6
MR WOODWARD:
7
MR CONWAY:
9
MR WOODWARD:
11
And that would have been, what, would it, early
last year when you had that conversation?
8
10
No.
MR CONWAY:
Yes, I - - Early to mid last year.
It would have been early last year, I would have
thought.
12
MR WOODWARD:
13
MR CONWAY:
14
MR WOODWARD:
15
MR CONWAY:
16
MR WOODWARD:
17
MR CONWAY:
Yes.
Yes, thank you.
Early to mid probably, yes.
You’re familiar with the term banker school?
I am, yes.
How would you define a banker school, Mr Conway?
Well, the – the only two institutions that can
18
hold bank accounts were the Department centrally, and
19
schools.
20
MR WOODWARD:
21
MR CONWAY:
22
Yes.
So regions, districts, anybody else in between
couldn’t hold accounts.
23
MR WOODWARD:
24
MR CONWAY:
Yes.
So money used to be deposited on behalf of the
25
Department into schools to cover the expenditure and
26
programs that the centre didn’t want to handle, or wanted
27
the schools to handle on their behalf.
28
MR WOODWARD:
As I understand your evidence, Mr Conway, that
29
was because, for instance, of – if money was required to
30
be used for a program in a region, it couldn’t be given
1404
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
to the region because it didn’t have the administrative
2
capability to manage that money.
3
school within that region.
4
MR CONWAY:
5
MR WOODWARD:
6
MR CONWAY:
So it was put into a
Is that - - -
That’s correct.
Yes.
The region had a budget and then that budget was
7
allocated sometimes between three schools, as I
8
understand it, or one school.
9
MR WOODWARD:
Do we take it from that though, Mr Conway, that,
10
generally speaking, the – when that occurred, the money
11
was being, in the first place, allocated in respect of a
12
specific program?
13
MR CONWAY:
It was like a recurrent – recurrent budget.
So it
14
was a recurrent thing.
15
annual basis.
16
an annual basis and maybe topped up if it was for any
17
other special project for things.
18
arrangement I suppose.
19
investigation I was describing a banker school in the
20
context of ongoing funding arrangements.
21
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
So that it was a pay – paid on an
So regional budget would be distributed on
So it was an ongoing
So, well, in my evidence to the
But, again, it was a process pursuant to
22
which money that was to be expended within a region as
23
part of a program, maybe a - - -
24
MR CONWAY:
25
MR WOODWARD:
Certainly.
- - - maybe of a current program in that region,
26
would then be deposited in a school as a matter of
27
administrative convenience - - -
28
MR CONWAY:
29
MR WOODWARD:
30
Correct, yes.
- - - for the management of that money within
that region.
1405
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
MR CONWAY:
2
MR WOODWARD:
Yes, yes.
And is it also the case that, generally
3
speaking, the school that would be the recipient of the
4
money had some connection with the program that was being
5
implemented within that region?
6
MR CONWAY:
Possible – possible connection.
They were a
7
member of – a school that was a – you had to be a school
8
within the region to receive the money.
9
MR WOODWARD:
10
MR CONWAY:
11
way.
12
Yes.
And you may, being a beneficiary, yes, in some
MR WOODWARD:
And you say that, generally speaking, at least
13
in your understanding the – there might be two or three
14
specific banker schools within a region to fulfil that
15
administrative function for the region?
16
MR CONWAY:
17
MR WOODWARD:
That’s correct, yes.
And as I understand it, your evidence is that
18
your school was not a banker school, at least in that
19
sense?
20
MR CONWAY:
21
MR WOODWARD:
22
MR CONWAY:
Not in that sense.
Yes.
In a sense, we were, I suppose, in a technical
23
sense a banker school because we received a grant on an
24
annual basis but I don’t think it was every year.
25
can’t remember exactly.
26
particular purpose, and a different purpose on each
27
occasion.
28
MR WOODWARD:
I see.
I
But it was a grant for a
Can we just turn to those grants.
29
You’ve been at the school, that is Kings Park, since
30
1998.
1406
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
MR CONWAY:
2
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
What’s your recollection as to when the grants
3
that you’re now referring to, which you – as I understand
4
it, you say are outside what would be the normal banker
5
school arrangement, when did they start?
6
MR CONWAY:
I think they could have started in 2003.
I’m not
7
– I couldn’t – may – they may have been earlier, I
8
couldn’t – I can’t remember really. 2003, I think was
9
connected with the school – introduction of a school
10
11
purchase card or corporate card.
MR WOODWARD:
And did the grants normally occur, using that
12
term broadly, in the same way, in the sense that they –
13
they were initiated in the same way over the years?
14
MR CONWAY:
15
MR WOODWARD:
16
MR CONWAY:
Yes, yes.
And how was that?
Well, from what I recall, Nino would approach me
17
and say, would I be prepared to accept money for a
18
project, eg, pilot project for the purchasing of credit
19
card.
20
MR WOODWARD:
21
MR CONWAY:
22
Yes.
And he would indicate he would be depositing a sum
of X amount of money.
23
MR WOODWARD:
24
MR CONWAY:
Yes.
And that he would send invoices to do with that
25
program, and if we could process them on – on the – for
26
the Department.
27
MR WOODWARD:
Right.
And so, based on what you’ve just said,
28
the initiating process always involved Mr Napoli, in your
29
experience, for the King – for the money that came into
30
Kings Park?
1407
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
MR CONWAY:
2
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
And in every case he would contact you to tell
3
you to – in other words, the contact would come from him
4
to you, not the other way around?
5
MR CONWAY:
6
MR WOODWARD:
7
MR CONWAY:
Yes, from him.
Yes.
Yes, yes.
It was mainly an oral contact at a meeting.
8
he would catch you at a – say, a panel meeting or
9
something like that, and mention it.
10
MR WOODWARD:
Like,
And in the cases that you can recall, as I
11
understand your evidence, it was – he would generally
12
identify a particular project that was – that the money
13
was connected to.
14
MR CONWAY:
15
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
Yes.
And, in your recollection, was that – and
16
I think you said it was generally a different project
17
each time.
18
MR CONWAY:
19
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
Yes.
Can you recall some – some examples of the
20
sorts of projects he identified as being recipients of
21
this funding?
22
MR CONWAY:
Yes, I think there was things like technical
23
leadership and mentoring, CASES management, work –
24
workforce bridging and school council financial
25
requirements.
26
it was a particular thing under technical leadership.
27
could have been training for bursars, or business
28
managers as they became known.
29
30
MR WOODWARD:
Sometimes it was technical leadership and
It
That sort of thing.
And what was your understanding, at the time at
least, as to why the money was to be allocated to your
1408
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
2
school for the purposes of those programs?
MR CONWAY:
Well, it – I just thought – initially I thought it
3
would be – it was explained to me that it was – because
4
it was a project and a lot of it was to do with – with
5
other schools, that it was expedient to put it on an
6
annual basis into – into a – into the school.
7
8
9
MR WOODWARD:
You say – sorry to interrupt.
explained to you.
MR CONWAY:
10
MR WOODWARD:
11
MR CONWAY:
You say it was
By Mr Napoli?
Yes.
Yes.
Go on.
I – I would have – I think I recall saying to him,
12
why would we, and he said it was expedient to put it in
13
to a school.
14
saying that the Minister required a project to be
15
completed, and he needed to employ – this was in relation
16
to the employment of staff.
17
MR WOODWARD:
18
MR CONWAY:
And also on one occasion I remember him
That’s okay.
Sorry, I’m jumping.
Yes.
But in the – I asked, why were you employing staff
19
in – temporary staff outside the Department, he said
20
there was a ceiling of – his department had a ceiling,
21
every department had a ceiling.
22
process, or something, to go around to get that.
23
was going to – he was employing outside to be able to
24
complete work that needed to be completed according to a
25
timeframe.
26
MR WOODWARD:
And it was a long
So he
So something needed to be done quickly, and the
27
existing rules within the central office created some
28
impediment to that process.
29
30
MR CONWAY:
Yes.
Is that - - -
On one occasion, I can’t remember which
occasion, I did ask and that was – that was the response
1409
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
I got.
2
MR WOODWARD:
3
MR CONWAY:
Yes.
Based on - - -
So I presumed it would – he was – I presumed on
4
some occasion he was redirecting some Department money
5
for these projects and he would be accountable for that
6
Department money.
7
MR WOODWARD:
Based on the explanation he gave you on that one
8
occasion though, Mr Conway, you would agree that the
9
explanation, itself, suggests that there was a – the
10
process was being set up to avoid some bureaucratic
11
impediment to achieving an outcome that Mr Napoli wanted
12
to achieve.
13
MR CONWAY:
Yes.
I suppose if you want to go quick – quick
14
process, or quicker process you’re bypassing some of the
15
processes.
16
MR WOODWARD:
17
MR CONWAY:
18
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
Yes.
So you used the term then, bypassing some of the
19
processes, did that cause you any disquiet at the time
20
that you were, effectively, being used, as it were, to
21
assist Mr Napoli bypass processes within the Department?
22
MR CONWAY:
No, because I thought it was an authentic purpose
23
on the basis of the information that had been given to
24
me.
25
reasonable explanation at the time.
I thought the project was authentic and it sounded a
26
MR WOODWARD:
27
MR CONWAY:
28
MR WOODWARD:
So - - In hindsight maybe not so reasonable.
So at the time your focus was on being satisfied
29
that the process sounded authentic and that is the –
30
sorry, the project sounded authentic - - 1410
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
MR CONWAY:
2
MR WOODWARD:
But - - - - - of where the money was going to end up, so
3
you were less concerned about whether every I was crossed
4
and T was dotted in respect of that process?
5
6
MR CONWAY:
accountable centrally in the Department.
7
MR WOODWARD:
8
MR CONWAY:
9
Well, I figured that Mr Napoli was responsible and
Yes.
And that it was a project initiated he – by him,
he was responsible for the project.
I didn’t see myself
10
as being responsible in any way for the project, just a
11
conduit if you like, a - - -
12
MR WOODWARD:
I see.
But you did understand that at least for
13
that one occasion that part of the reason or part of the
14
rationale for putting the money in the Kings Park Primary
15
School was to at least avoid some processes that would
16
otherwise have impeded the project?
17
MR CONWAY:
18
MR WOODWARD:
Yes, correct, yes.
What sort of amounts of money were in your
19
collection involved in these various grants over the
20
years?
21
MR CONWAY:
I think they ranged between 10 and I think the
22
largest one might have been 50, but I – I couldn’t recall
23
at the investigation, but I think I have since been
24
informed it was around 50.
25
MR WOODWARD:
Contrasting your description of the banker
26
school system as you understood it and what was occurring
27
here, do we take it that you assumed when the arrangement
28
was set up with Mr Napoli that none of the money that was
29
to be expended would see it’s way in the form of any
30
goods or services to the – your school?
1411
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
MR CONWAY:
Yes, the – the – there weren’t any goods or
2
services under these projects that would come back to the
3
– or be associated or attached to the school in any way.
4
MR WOODWARD:
Or indeed you didn’t understand at the time that
5
there would be any sort of regional element to these
6
project, the were essentially all central projects,
7
centrally based projects?
8
9
10
MR CONWAY:
I – my understanding was they were centrally based
projects, yes.
MR WOODWARD:
Now, I think you said you thought that maybe the
11
first of the payments grants was made in around 2003.
12
have some information, Mr Conway, that at least one
13
invoice payable to On The Ball Personnel, does that name
14
ring a bell with you?
15
MR CONWAY:
16
MR WOODWARD:
17
We
Yes, that – that was – that – that name does, yes.
Yes.
As – in what way does that sound familiar
to you?
18
MR CONWAY:
19
MR WOODWARD:
20
MR CONWAY:
We would have – we paid invoices to - - To that company.
- - - to On – to that company because I used to –
21
because, sorry, glance to see that the project was titled
22
on the invoice - - -
23
MR WOODWARD:
24
MR CONWAY:
25
26
Yes.
- - - and that the – the matter was related to the
things that – that he had previously mentioned.
MR WOODWARD:
Mentioned to you.
Okay.
Can we have court book
27
13 which is a single page document up on the screen?
28
will see come up on the screen, Mr Conway, an invoice
29
that was provided as part or that’s been secured as part
30
of the investigation addressed from On The Ball Personnel
1412
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
You
DISCUSSION
1
to Kings Park Primary School and you will see the date 4
2
December 2000, so that’s some 15 years ago.
3
MR CONWAY:
4
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
And if we scroll down you will see that the
5
amount of the invoice:
6
For the engagement of temporary staff for administrative
7
– administration duties for October, November, 20,000 –
8
presumably 2000 –
9
at $4811.30.
10
MR CONWAY:
11
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
Which I think if you go down to the base of the
12
page is an amount of 5500 once you add back in the GST.
13
So that would suggest that at least these invoices were
14
appearing for On The Ball Personnel as early as 2000, Mr
15
Conway.
16
able to say that these services were not supplied
17
directly to the school?
18
MR CONWAY:
19
MR WOODWARD:
20
MR CONWAY:
21
MR WOODWARD:
22
MR CONWAY:
23
MR WOODWARD:
24
MR CONWAY:
25
Yes, that’s - - Yes.
- - - that’s correct.
Yes.
After the investigation we did do a search.
Yes.
And the – the – the business manager and I did a
search of the companies and the invoices.
26
MR WOODWARD:
27
MR CONWAY:
28
I assume that you know, do you that – or are you
Yes.
And the ones that we could locate we provided
- - -
29
MR WOODWARD:
30
MR CONWAY:
Yes.
And - - -
- - - to IBAC.
1413
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
MR WOODWARD:
Does it seem then that if this was – and this
2
was similar to a number of invoices you received over
3
many subsequent years?
4
MR CONWAY:
5
MR WOODWARD:
6
MR CONWAY:
7
MR WOODWARD:
Yes, that - - Yes.
- - - that’s correct, yes.
And so does it seem likely to you based on that
8
invoice, Mr Conway, that the payments of money, I think
9
you called them grants, in from Mr Napoli might have
10
started earlier than or perhaps even during the year
11
2000?
12
13
MR CONWAY:
It – they may- might well have, yes, because we
wouldn’t have paid any accounts.
14
MR WOODWARD:
15
MR CONWAY:
16
MR WOODWARD:
Other than from funds provided by Mr Napoli?
That’s correct.
Yes.
And when the funds came in, Mr Conway, how
17
were they – how were they accounted for in your
18
accounting system in the CASES system?
19
them?
20
MR CONWAY:
21
MR WOODWARD:
What did you call
I can – I couldn’t answer that.
You’re not sure.
Were they all put under the
22
same line item in the accounting system as best you can
23
recall?
24
MR CONWAY:
No, I can’t – I can’t recall because I gave no
25
instruction to the business manager other than telling
26
her we would be receiving a – a – a grant - - -
27
MR WOODWARD:
28
MR CONWAY:
29
30
Right.
- - - for X amount of money for X project and it
would be by electronic transfer - - MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
1414
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
MR CONWAY:
- - - to the high yield account.
And would be
2
followed by invoices and we – she would need to keep
3
track of that.
4
MR WOODWARD:
And so your business manager would therefore –
5
you left it to her to decide how to actually describe or
6
what line item to use for the purposes of putting that
7
money into the school’s accounting system?
8
MR CONWAY:
9
MR WOODWARD:
That’s – that’s correct.
It presumably though came up regularly in
10
reports to you and to the school council or finance
11
committee.
12
MR CONWAY:
13
MR WOODWARD:
14
MR CONWAY:
16
MR WOODWARD:
17
MR CONWAY:
MR WOODWARD:
20
MR CONWAY:
22
Yes.
And you don’t recall from those reports
No, I don’t.
Yes.
But the – I would be able to ask her, “Has – have
we spent the – is there anything for the year?”
19
21
Yes, we – yes, we had reports.
over the years where this money sat in the system?
15
18
Is that correct?
So - - And that sort of thing and she would be able to
track that through the – through the CASES system.
MR WOODWARD:
So is it safe to assume then that although you
23
don’t know what description she might have given it
24
within the system, it sat in a discrete line item within
25
the system and wasn’t mixed or - - -
26
MR CONWAY:
It could have been mixed, she would – and she
27
would have had some other system or a – she would be able
28
to identify the amount that came in and she would be able
29
to identify the invoices that were paid out.
30
– I’m not sure how the money was - - 1415
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
So I’m not
DISCUSSION
1
MR WOODWARD:
2
after?
3
MR CONWAY:
4
MR WOODWARD:
5
6
7
Exactly, yes.
But you did occasionally ask her to let you know
how much of a particular amount or grant was left?
MR CONWAY:
Yes, it – and sometimes she would ask me, “Is – is
– are there going to be any more” - - -
8
MR WOODWARD:
9
MR CONWAY:
10
You left that to your business manager to look
All right.
- - - “accounts?” and - - -
MR WOODWARD:
Were your enquiries of her about that matter
11
prompted by a request or any enquiry from Mr Napoli as to
12
how much was left in a particular – of a particular grant
13
from time to time?
14
MR CONWAY:
15
MR WOODWARD:
16
On some occasions, yes.
And how would that happen?
Would that be a call
or - - -
17
MR CONWAY:
18
MR WOODWARD:
I – I think that was usually a call.
To say, you know, well, can you give us a rough
19
idea of what he might have said during one of those
20
calls?
21
MR CONWAY:
He would said, “The – the grant for CASES finance
22
do – do I have anything left?
23
- - -
24
MR WOODWARD:
25
MR CONWAY:
26
MR WOODWARD:
Is there anything left in”
Right.
- - - “the amount?”
And then you would speak to your business
27
manager and ask her what, what was left and she would
28
give that information to you and you would pass it back
29
to Mr Napoli?
30
MR CONWAY:
Correct, yes.
1416
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
2
3
4
MR WOODWARD:
you have to ring him back for that purpose?
MR CONWAY:
MR WOODWARD:
6
MR CONWAY:
7
MR WOODWARD:
9
I – I can’t recall, but I – that wouldn’t
necessarily happen at the same time.
5
8
And did that all happen at the same time or did
All right.
Depending on what was happening in the office.
Sure.
Can I tender that page, please,
Commissioner?
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
It’s book 13 is it?
10
MR WOODWARD:
It’s just court - - -
11
MR O’BRYAN:
12
EXHIBIT #131 INVOICE FROM COURT BOOK 13
13
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
Well, that will be exhibit 131.
Could we have up next, please, page 15 of the
14
main book, please?
15
Conway, from C & L Printing in respect of some printing
16
works.
17
it’s to your school for a 10 page full colour booklet,
18
etcetera, for a total amount, if we scroll down to the
19
bottom of the page, $6000.
20
mean anything to you, Mr Conway?
21
MR CONWAY:
22
MR WOODWARD:
You will see this is a quotation, Mr
Can I just get that scrolled down, please?
And
Does the name C & L Printing
No.
Do you recall, from time to time, apparently as
23
early as 2003, receiving quotes and invoices from this
24
company?
25
MR CONWAY:
26
MR WOODWARD:
I believe we might have.
I don’t actually recall.
What’s your recollection generally, Mr Conway,
27
as to when these sorts of documents would appear, were
28
they usually preceded by a phone call or some other
29
conversation with Mr Napoli about them?
30
MR CONWAY:
I think he used to signal by phone that they –
1417
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
2
3
there would be an invoice coming, yes.
MR WOODWARD:
MR CONWAY:
5
MR WOODWARD:
MR CONWAY:
8
MR WOODWARD:
10
By mail.
By mail.
And that would be by just the
Australia Post type mail, not any internal - - -
7
9
And then how did that invoice then
turn up at the school?
4
6
All right.
That’s correct, yes.
Yes.
And do you recall – because you did
receive a number over the years, Mr Conway – the – was it
a plain envelope, or one with department insignia on it?
11
MR CONWAY:
12
MR WOODWARD:
13
MR CONWAY:
I didn’t open the mail at the school.
I see.
Even – I didn’t open any mail at the school.
14
was all opened by the office staff and sorted by the
15
office staff.
16
17
18
MR WOODWARD:
Okay.
And do you recall when the invoice – once
opened though, the invoice, would it cross your desk?
MR CONWAY:
Yes.
Once opened, the business manager would –
19
went – she would know – I would have told her it was
20
coming and she would have then set it up for payment
21
- - -
22
MR WOODWARD:
23
MR CONWAY:
Payment.
- - - in line with other payments and it would
24
cross my desk when we were processing the cheques for
25
those payments.
26
It
MR WOODWARD:
And did the – do you recall the invoices ever
27
having with them any note, or covering letter, or
28
anything of that kind?
29
MR CONWAY:
30
MR WOODWARD:
No.
You don’t think they did, or you just have no
1418
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
2
3
memory one way or the other?
MR CONWAY:
Well, it was never drawn to my attention that
there was any note - - -
4
MR WOODWARD:
5
MR CONWAY:
All right.
- - - with them.
There could possibly have been a
6
note with them that was unpacked and separated from the
7
invoice.
8
9
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
Thank you.
Could we just go to page 16.
This time it is an invoice, not a quote.
Again, it’s
10
another one from On The Ball Personnel in 2003 for a
11
total amount of $5000 which seems to include GST, so
12
similar to the earlier one.
13
The Ball invoices of which you received a number over the
14
ensuing years, Mr Conway?
15
16
17
MR CONWAY:
Yes.
So this is another of the On
There were a number of invoices, yes, from
On The Ball.
MR WOODWARD:
And this one is administration services for
18
November/December 2003.
19
provided in any way in connection with your school.
20
MR CONWAY:
21
MR WOODWARD:
22
Again, those were not services
That’s correct.
Yes.
And what did you assume that the services
were being provided for?
23
MR CONWAY:
24
MR WOODWARD:
25
MR CONWAY:
26
MR WOODWARD:
I presumed it was probably temporary employment.
At where?
At the centre.
Okay.
And was that based on any particular
27
information provided to you by Mr Napoli or anyone else,
28
or was that just an assumption you made?
29
30
MR CONWAY:
It could be an assumption I’m making now based on
the fact that maybe I asked him later in 2000 and I just
1419
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
2
– I can’t recall exactly the - - MR WOODWARD:
So to the extent that with any of these you
3
might have had some explanation from Mr Napoli, for
4
instance, about the hiring of temporary personnel, was
5
one example you gave before - - -
6
MR CONWAY:
7
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
- - - where it was expedient – once you had got
8
that explanation, you were happy to just run with that
9
explanation as these invoices came in?
10
MR CONWAY:
11
MR WOODWARD:
12
Correct.
If I could tender, please, Commissioner, perhaps
together, pages 15 and 16.
13
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
Exhibit 132.
14
EXHIBIT #132 PAGES 15 AND 16
15
MR WOODWARD:
Could we go in the book, please, to page 76, and
16
this is exhibit 92.
17
Mr Conway, but it’s the case, isn’t it – I don’t want to
18
take you to every one – that you continued to receive
19
invoices from various companies under this arrangement
20
with Mr Napoli in the ensuing period up to 2008?
21
MR CONWAY:
22
MR WOODWARD:
This is jumping forward some years,
Yes.
Yes.
You won’t have seen – I assume – certainly
23
assume you haven’t seen this before, at least not until
24
recently, Mr Conway, but you will see, if we go to the
25
bottom of the page where the email chain starts, it
26
begins with an email – further down, please – from Mr
27
Napoli to Sharon, who is Sharon Vandermeer, where you
28
will see:
29
The outstanding accounts for administrative staff should
30
go to Kings Park Primary School, 3000, Moonee Ponds
1420
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
Primary.
Can you arrange invoices to come to me, please.
2
If we jump up to the next line:
3
That’s fine, Nino, but the outstanding invoices are now
4
at 11,450 which takes us completely up-to-date.
5
know if you would like those figures to change.
6
Mr Napoli then responds:
7
Sharon, thanks for the information.
8
following;
Chandler Park Primary –
9
and so on.
I won’t read them all, but you will see Kings
10
Park, 4500.
11
initial email - - -
12
MR CONWAY:
13
MR WOODWARD:
Let me
Please arrange the
So the amount seems to have gone up from the
Yes.
- - - and for a different period.
And then
14
finally, further up the page, you will see Mr Napoli –
15
incidentally, you will see at the bottom of that email:
16
Email accounts to me and I will pass on to the
17
principals.
18
you ahead.
19
soon.
20
He then sends a further follow-up email a couple of hours
21
later:
22
With regards to –
23
I beg your pardon, a day later:
24
With regards to these accounts, can I get them soon
25
before the term break, otherwise you will be waiting for
26
weeks to be paid.
27
And then at the top of the page, Sharon responds:
28
You will have them tonight, Nino.
29
you and Josie.
30
of heart-related tests.
Any issues, let me know.
All the best to Richard.
This should put
Hope he gets well
Thanks very much to
Richard is feeling okay and has a number
Thanks again for your thoughts
1421
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
and wishes, Sharon.
2
And what then was – the next exchange between them, on
3
this topic anyway, Mr Conway, is another email from Ms
4
Vandermeer who is the owner of the On The Ball business.
5
If we go to page 78, please:
6
Please find attached for payment.
7
changes, please let me know.
8
And we will just quickly scroll through what she had
9
attached.
If there are any
The next page you will see there’s an invoice
10
to Mr Peter Paul from On The Ball for 4400, then the one
11
to Mr Hilton at Moonee Ponds for 5500.
12
roughly over the same period.
13
you, Mr Conway, and then there’s another two, one to Mr
14
Kearney and one to Mr Virtue for some different amounts,
15
roughly the same sort of period.
All seem to be
The next one is the one to
16
So what that at least indicates to us, and maybe to
17
you also, Mr Conway, is that Ms Vandermeer has, running
18
low on funds, to pay for money she is paying out and Mr
19
Napoli first tells her, “Well, I will arrange these
20
invoices.”
21
“Well, let’s do these ones”, and then she sends him five
22
invoices that he passes on to top-up the coffers, as it
23
were, at On The Ball and you were caught up in that
24
process, Mr Conway.
25
know that at the time.
26
MR CONWAY:
She says that’s not enough and he says,
I know – well, I assume you didn’t
I certainly didn’t know.
I certainly wouldn’t
27
have been cooperating in any way if I had known that
28
information.
29
30
MR WOODWARD:
And now that you do, Mr Conway, and no doubt
know other things as well as a result of the
1422
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
investigation to date, what do you think it was at the
2
time that satisfied you that these – this process of Mr
3
Napoli putting money in your account and sending these
4
invoices about services that you knew nothing about that
5
at the time made you feel that it was all appropriate and
6
above board?
7
MR CONWAY:
I suppose we had a trust in Mr Napoli that he was
8
acting in the best interests of the Education Department
9
and using the Education Department funds for valid
10
purposes.
11
falling out with him in 2012 over a funding matter.
12
MR WOODWARD:
I did trust him up until 2012.
I had a
I might ask you about that in a moment, but,
13
before I do, the – do you think there was anything in the
14
way in which – the process was, it’s fair to say, a
15
pretty informal one between you and Mr Napoli?
16
MR CONWAY:
17
MR WOODWARD:
18
MR CONWAY:
19
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
In hindsight, you would have - - -
And, you know, there was – there were no
20
documents, confirmations being signed;
21
it was all basically done on word of mouth.
22
MR CONWAY:
23
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
Yes.
it was one where
And done virtually on trust too.
And is there anything about the way in
24
which you were trained, or the training you received on
25
issues such as procurement that you think allowed you to,
26
as it were, drop your guard in respect of this sort of
27
practice?
28
MR CONWAY:
Yes, I suppose, because it was Mr Napoli’s
29
responsibility to ensure that, because he was managing it
30
from the centre.
1423
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
MR WOODWARD:
You would know enough though, Mr Conway, even
2
then, that there are people out there who will take
3
advantage of weaknesses in systems, particularly in
4
bureaucratic systems?
5
6
MR CONWAY:
would be any inappropriate use of systems or funds.
7
MR WOODWARD:
8
MR CONWAY:
9
It never – it never entered my head that there
But you knew at the time that it happens?
It happens in life generally, yes.
If you’re
asking me that, yes.
10
MR WOODWARD:
11
MR CONWAY:
12
MR WOODWARD:
13
MR CONWAY:
14
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
But in this - - And you knew that at the time.
Yes.
So why did you think that the systems that you
15
were part of were immune – or why did you assume that
16
they were immune from that?
17
MR CONWAY:
I just trusted that the person was doing the right
18
thing.
19
follow process.
20
following process.
21
understand it, for schools to receive grants for projects
22
that weren’t administered by the centre – I mean that
23
weren’t paid out of the centre.
24
schools for central projects.
25
MR WOODWARD:
Like – like – I personally do the right thing and
I was presuming that he would be
It wasn’t an unusual practice, as I
They were paid to
Did you ever receive any training in your time
26
as principal, or indeed earlier, Mr Conway, in relation
27
to matters such as procurement or potential fraud, that
28
sort of thing training to assist you to identify where
29
these sort of problems might arise?
30
MR CONWAY:
Procurement guidelines were provided to schools
1424
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
for the purchase of goods and what you had to follow for
2
- - -
3
MR WOODWARD:
4
MR CONWAY:
5
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
Did you receive any - - -
- - - purchasing - - Sorry.
I interrupted you.
Did you receive any
6
training in relation to those or did they just turn up at
7
the school?
8
9
MR CONWAY:
Basically they would just turn up.
I mean, every
– every time the system changed or was altered or there
10
was a set of documents that would come out later on
11
online, but a set of documents.
12
print a lot of materials.
13
14
MR WOODWARD:
MR CONWAY:
16
MR WOODWARD:
17
MR CONWAY:
19
So your recollection is there wasn’t any
specific training on procurement issues?
15
18
Yes.
There could have been.
But you don’t recall?
There might have been.
MR WOODWARD:
I mean,
What about things like conflict of interest,
those sorts of concepts?
21
received training about?
23
I don’t recall.
it was - - -
20
22
The Department used to
MR CONWAY:
Is that something that you ever
I don’t recall receiving training, but again you
can refer to manual about conflict of interest and - - -
24
MR WOODWARD:
25
MR CONWAY:
What manual was available on that topic?
I think there’s a finance – a finance manual,
26
procedures and it could have been even the Schools of the
27
Future – what was called the Schools of the – it started
28
off being called the Schools of the Future Manual, which
29
was a – sort of a Bible guideline for all sorts of
30
requirements for schools.
1425
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
MR WOODWARD:
We will just go to a couple more.
Perhaps I
2
should ask you, you mentioned a moment ago a falling out
3
with Mr Napoli.
4
MR CONWAY:
How did that arise?
The government of the day was transferring
5
responsibility for student services from regions to
6
schools and network of schools and Nino Napoli had
7
employed a consultant to analyse the data of the regions,
8
how much each district should be allocated from the
9
regional pool.
And we were allocated some as a region.
10
I took on the role with a colleague to be the acting
11
chairperson while this move was taking place from the
12
region to the district.
13
provisional sum of 880,000 or something like that.
14
calculation was that it was a hundred and – round about
15
130,000 short.
16
and he said there was no money but he would fix it up
17
afterwards – after the – you know, had been implemented –
18
after the change had been implemented.
19
him at the time I didn’t think that was an appropriate –
20
we didn’t know if he would be around.
21
We – we were allocated a
Our
We approached Mr Napoli about that matter
And I – I said to
If there was other changes in the system, people
22
could say that the school wasn’t – the schools weren’t
23
entitled to the money and we had a bit of a – an argument
24
about that.
25
action on this.
26
Then he – he said, “Please don’t take any
I’ll fix it.”
But I – I wrote to the minister on behalf of the
27
principals network complaining to the minister that
28
electoral promise wasn’t being honoured by the fact we
29
were being receiving less money than we should have and
30
there were a couple of other school networks in our
1426
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
2
3
4
region that were in a similar position.
MR WOODWARD:
And what happened?
But - - -
Did Mr Napoli’s name get
mentioned in that letter?
MR CONWAY:
No.
But he was in charge and he later informed me
5
that he had been called in by the minister and told to
6
fix it – find the money and fix it.
7
MR WOODWARD:
8
MR CONWAY:
9
10
He was the - - And, subsequently, we – all the schools that were
– received a shortfall ..... that received a shortfall
had the money reinstated as to what it should be.
11
MR WOODWARD:
12
MR CONWAY:
13
MR WOODWARD:
And you say this was in 2012.
Mm.
Yes.
Could we just – just a couple of more
14
documents I wanted to ask you or put – or draw to your
15
attention, Mr Conway.
16
– actually 63 will do.
17
through individual invoices, I’m taking you to an extract
18
or a summary of what the information in the CASES21
19
database contains in connection with the various invoices
20
that were paid out by Kings Park.
At court book 10, pages 63 and 64
Just to avoid us having to go
21
On our calculations, Mr Conway, totalling just a
22
little under $80,000 over the period 2007 to now – so it
23
doesn’t include those earlier ones that we looked at that
24
were dated back to 2003, ’04 and ’05.
25
said there was a similar – these things tended to be
26
pretty constant during those years, as best you can
27
recall.
28
29
30
MR CONWAY:
Yes.
And I think you
I don’t think it – wasn’t every year but it
was certainly a couple of consecutive years.
MR WOODWARD:
But you will see – if you just run your eye down
1427
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
that list, you will see payments to Encino Proprietary
2
Limited, to Quill Proprietary Limited, many – a number of
3
payments to On The Ball Personnel, RS Media Productions,
4
another one to Encino – this is in 2008 – Customer
5
Training and Consulting.
6
to you, Mr Conway?
7
MR CONWAY:
8
MR WOODWARD:
9
10
11
MR CONWAY:
Well, do you – do you actually recall receiving
I told the investigation officers at the time I
couldn’t recall - - MR WOODWARD:
13
MR CONWAY:
14
MR WOODWARD:
15
MR CONWAY:
16
MR WOODWARD:
17
MR CONWAY:
19
In what way do you mean familiar?
invoices from those companies or - - -
12
18
Are any of those names familiar
Yes.
- - - most of the - - The names.
- - - the names.
Yes.
But I since have gone back, and with the business
manager we pulled the information and, yes.
MR WOODWARD:
At the time when these invoices were coming
20
through, what process did you have, if any, to just to
21
check or satisfy yourself that the invoices were
22
appropriate for payment?
23
24
25
MR CONWAY:
Just the fact that I had received it from Mr
Napoli.
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
Did you pay much attention to actually
26
what the content or the item description was, or whatever
27
the equivalent?
28
MR CONWAY:
Well, I looked – I looked at the item description,
29
if it was – if I thought it was connected to the – just
30
to check that it seemed to be connected to the – appeared
1428
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
2
to be connected to the project.
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
I will just go to the next page again,
3
just to take us through it.
4
recent period, 2011, you received a series of invoices
5
from – there’s some doubling up there.
6
only three in total payments from Innovating Visuals
7
Proprietary Limited.
8
you were familiar with, other than perhaps having a vague
9
memory of seeing invoices from them?
10
11
12
13
MR CONWAY:
It seems that in a more
That’s actually
Again, that’s not a company that
We did no school business with any of these
companies.
MR WOODWARD:
No.
Yes.
Thank you.
I will tender those two pages.
So that’s court book 10, Commissioner, pages 63 and 64.
14
MR O’BRYAN:
They will be marked exhibit 133.
15
EXHIBIT #133 PAGES 63 AND 64 OF COURT BOOK 10
16
MR WOODWARD:
Just finally, Mr Conway, I just want to show you
17
a document which we will find in court book 7, at page
18
21.
19
but it is an email from Mr Craven – at least, it’s to Mr
20
Craven from Mr Napoli:
21
Rob, can you please do the needful as per below emails?
22
Nino.
23
And the “needful” or “below emails” is an email from Mr
24
John Allman.
Again, I don’t imagine you’ve seen this, Mr Conway,
25
MR CONWAY:
26
MR WOODWARD:
27
28
Do you know Mr Allman?
Yes, I do.
Yes.
Yes.
And have you had much contact with him
over the years?
MR CONWAY:
Well, he was a principal in my network when I was
29
at Brunswick – principal at Brunswick North and also I
30
was chair of the Brunswick North district so I – and that
1429
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
was his first appointment so I had something to do with
2
helping and assisting him at that time.
3
across him in various meetings in the Department, in
4
- - -
5
MR WOODWARD:
And I’ve run
Did he ever – or did you ever have any dealings
6
with him in relation to payment of invoices and grants
7
similar to those you’ve described with Mr Napoli?
8
MR CONWAY:
9
MR WOODWARD:
No.
No.
You will see there – this is Mr Allman
10
instructing Mr Napoli:
11
Nino, one further cash grant, please.
12
And you will see, this is March 2011, Kings Park Primary
13
School, school partnerships, $50,000.
14
grant coming into your school?
15
MR CONWAY:
16
MR WOODWARD:
Do you recall that
I can’t recall exactly, no.
No.
It’s the – the amount you I think mentioned
17
earlier as being one of the ones – the biggest sums that
18
you recall receiving over that period.
19
MR CONWAY:
Yes, I – since – since interviewed by the
20
investigation, I’m aware that we would have received
21
50,000.
22
partnerships.
23
MR WOODWARD:
24
MR CONWAY:
25
MR WOODWARD:
But I wasn’t aware that it was called national
I don’t recall it being - - -
I - - School partnerships rather, sorry.
Yes.
Assuming that that money did come in to
26
the school, can we be confident that it would have been
27
part of the same process that you – you’ve been
28
describing involving Mr Napoli?
29
come in under direction from him and then been the
30
subject of payment of invoices as we have discussed?
That is, it would have
1430
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
Or
DISCUSSION
1
do you recall some specific grant that was for a program
2
that - - -
3
MR CONWAY:
4
MR WOODWARD:
I can’t recall any specific application.
No.
So it’s more likely than not, is it, that
5
this was another – or assuming the money came in, that it
6
was for – it was then available for payment of invoices
7
by Mr Napoli?
8
MR CONWAY:
9
MR WOODWARD:
I actually couldn’t say.
Yes.
10
MR CONWAY:
11
MR WOODWARD:
12
MR CONWAY:
13
MR WOODWARD:
14
MR O’BRYAN:
15
EXHIBIT #134 PAGE 21 OF BOOK 7
16
MR WOODWARD:
17
18
Because I don’t actually - - You’re not sure.
I’m not sure enough to be able to say.
I will tender that, Commissioner, please.
Book 7, page 21, exhibit 134.
That’s all we have for Mr Conway, thank you,
Commissioner, for the moment.
MR O’BRYAN:
All right.
Thanks, Mr Woodward.
Well, then, Mr
19
Andreou, it’s not – look, it’s – I would imagine it’s
20
quite unlikely your client will be required again, but we
21
do have to wait at least to see whether any other legal
22
representatives might want to apply to cross-examine your
23
client.
24
granted that leave.
25
to find out whether that is so.
26
representatives have to date just reserved their position
27
on whether they want to ask any questions or say anything
28
down the track, so that you – you can have your choice.
29
You can ask questions now if you have got any.
30
has to date, but that’s not to stop, or just reserve your
And if they show good cause then they would be
So there will be a little bit delay
Otherwise, other
1431
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
No one
DISCUSSION
1
position and see whether or not your client has to come
2
back for cross-examination.
3
4
5
MR ANDREOU:
I think it would be appropriate that I reserve my
position.
MR O’BRYAN:
Is to reserve your position.
All right.
Well,
6
can you keep in touch, if you wouldn’t mind, with the
7
solicitor for the Commission and be proactive in that
8
regard so that if we don’t hear from you, say, in two
9
weeks, we will assume you wouldn’t want to otherwise ask
10
11
12
13
questions or say anything in public.
MR ANDREOU:
Shall do.
I will keep in contact with the
Commission’s - - MR O’BRYAN:
You keep in touch.
And you will know by that
14
time whether anyone has applied and been successful to
15
cross-examine and then you will be able to decide what
16
the future holds.
All right.
17
MR ANDREOU:
Certainly, Commissioner.
18
MR O’BRYAN:
Thank you very much.
Well, then, Mr Conway, it’s
19
unlikely this would happen, but we can’t be sure you
20
won’t be needed again, therefore all I can say at the
21
moment is that your examination is adjourned to a date in
22
time to be fixed.
23
the confidentiality notice to the extent it still applies
24
and you may be recalled at any time during the course of
25
this investigation to give further evidence before me.
26
You remain bound by the summons and
You, through your lawyers, will be advised in writing
27
if that is to occur and of the date and time.
28
also be advised in writing when you are no longer
29
required, again through your lawyers.
30
12.34 pm, so please stop the recording.
1432
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
You will
The time now is
And you’re now
DISCUSSION
1
free to leave the witness box.
2
assistance, Mr Conway.
Thank you for your
3
THE WITNESS WITHDREW
4
MR ANDREOU:
May I be excused, Commissioner?
5
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes, yes.
Certainly, Mr Andreou.
Thank you.
6
Well, then, I think we’ve got two witnesses for
7
examination after lunch.
8
today so that they don’t have to wait until Monday week.
9
Yes.
10
11
Good.
Thank you.
I trust we can finish them
Well, then, we will adjourn
until 1.30.
ADJOURNED
[12.34 pm]
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
1433
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
RESUMED
2
MR O’BRYAN:
This examination is to be video recorded.
Please
3
commence the recording.
Today’s date is 8 May 2015 and
4
the time is 1.33 pm.
5
conducting this examination under powers delegated to me
6
by instrument dated 5 September 2013, a copy of which has
7
been marked as exhibit 1.
8
and conducted under part 6 of the Independent Broad-Based
9
Anti-Corruption Commission Act 2011 as part of an
My name is Stephen O’Bryan.
I am
The examination is being held
10
investigation under part 3 of that Act.
11
opportunity to draw your attention, Mrs Jackson – you’re
12
Mrs Jackson?
13
MRS JACKSON:
14
MR O’BRYAN:
15
MS WALSH:
16
MR O’BRYAN:
I take this
Yes.
And to your counsel – Ms Walsh, you represent?
Yes, Commissioner.
Yes.
Good afternoon.
That this examination is
17
inquisitorial in nature.
18
by the rules of evidence and that I can regulate the
19
conduct of this examination in such ways as I consider
20
appropriate.
21
Jackson, you may be represented by Ms Walsh, however the
22
IBAC Act gives me the power to review that decision in
23
certain circumstances.
24
this later, but you will be given an opportunity at an
25
appropriate stage, should you wish to, to question your
26
client or to say something on her behalf by way of
27
submissions or statement.
28
This means that I am not bound
The examination is open to the public.
Mrs
And, Ms Walsh, we can speak about
Ms Walsh, I am required to inform you of the non-
29
disclosure requirements which apply to pursuant to
30
subsections 130(1)(d) and 44(2)(b) of the IBAC Act,
1434
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
namely you may not disclose the restricted matter
2
specified in the confidentiality notice received by your
3
client and dated 13 March 2015 to any other person while
4
the notice has effect.
5
To do so is a criminal offence.
You may disclose the restricted matter specified in
6
the confidentiality notice in accordance with a direction
7
or authorisation given by me, or another appropriately
8
qualified IBAC officer, or for the purposes of complying
9
with the legal duty of disclosure or a professional
10
obligation arising from your professional representation.
11
Mrs Jackson, would you please enter the witness box.
12
Please be seated.
13
MRS JACKSON:
14
MR O’BRYAN:
15
MRS JACKSON:
16
MR O’BRYAN:
Do you have a middle name?
Maree.
How do you spell your middle name?
M-a-r-e-e.
Maree.
Pursuant to my delegated powers, I now
17
require you to take an oath or make an affirmation.
18
Which of those two options do you prefer?
19
MRS JACKSON:
20
MR O’BRYAN:
I will take an oath.
Can you please take the bible, which is down
21
towards your left there, in your right hand and repeat
22
after me.
23
ANNE MAREE JACKSON, SWORN
24
MR O’BRYAN:
Thank you.
You can replace the bible.
Mrs
25
Jackson, because this is an inquisitorial examination,
26
the procedure differs from procedures which are
27
adversarial in nature and of the kind you normally see in
28
the courts.
29
questions relevant to the subject matter of the
30
investigation and I may also ask you some questions.
Counsel assisting me, Mr Hill, will ask you
1397
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
A.M. JACKSON
1
2
And, as you’ve heard, and I will speak to your counsel,
3
when Mr Hill is finished, your counsel will be extended
4
an opportunity should she wish to avail herself of that
5
at an appropriate time to ask you questions or to say
6
something on your behalf relevant to the investigation
7
and the matters you are questioned on.
8
deal with some other preliminary matters.
9
I’m required to
In particular, I’m required to advise you of the
10
nature of the matters in respect of which you are to be
11
asked questions and they are to give evidence before this
12
Commission in relation to your knowledge of matters the
13
subject of the scope and purpose described in the
14
preliminary information and directions for public
15
examinations in Operation Ord.
16
you were served with a summons to attend today, did you
17
receive a document titled Section 121(3)(c) Statement of
18
Rights and Obligations?
19
MRS JACKSON:
20
MR O’BRYAN:
21
Mrs Jackson, at the time
Yes.
And have you been through that document with
either Ms Walsh or another lawyer?
22
MRS JACKSON:
23
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
Yes.
Thank you.
A final matter, Mrs Jackson and
24
Ms Walsh;
because this investigation involves a
25
protected disclosure, I am required to advise you of two
26
matters pursuant to the Protected Disclosures Act.
27
First, you would be committing a criminal offence if you
28
disclose the content or information about the content of
29
the disclosure;
30
criminal offence if you disclose information likely to
secondly, you would also be committing a
1398
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
A.M. JACKSON
1
lead to the identification of the person who made the
2
assessable disclosure.
3
that, which you may not.
4
That, of course, assumes you know
Mrs Jackson, you may disclose the content or
5
information about the content of the protected disclosure
6
to Ms Walsh for the purpose of obtaining legal advice, or
7
as part of your representation here.
8
satisfied that the limited exceptions which would apply –
9
I’m sorry, which would allow such disclosure do not apply
I am otherwise
10
in this case and I do not allow disclosure for any other
11
purpose.
12
information for the purpose of complying with a legal
13
duty of disclosure or a professional obligation arising
14
from your professional relationship with your client.
15
The examination will now commence and I authorise Mr Hill
16
to examine you, Mrs Jackson.
17
18
MR HILL:
Thank you, Mr Hill.
Thank you, Commissioner.
Mrs Jackson, are you Anne Maree Jackson?
19
MRS JACKSON:
20
MR HILL:
21
And, Ms Walsh, you may disclose such
Yes, I am.
And do you attend here today in response to a
summons that was served upon you?
22
MRS JACKSON:
23
MR HILL:
Yes.
I will have shown to you some copy documents which
24
you would have seen copies of in the past.
25
summons served upon you numbered SE1407?
26
MRS JACKSON:
27
MR HILL:
28
Was the
Yes.
And with the summons, did you receive a
confidentiality notice - - -
29
MRS JACKSON:
30
MR HILL:
Yes.
- - - dated 13 March 2015?
1399
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
A.M. JACKSON
1
MRS JACKSON:
2
MR HILL:
Yes.
And, in addition, as you’ve told the Commissioner,
3
you received a document titled Section 121(3(c) Statement
4
of Rights and Obligations.
5
MRS JACKSON:
6
MR HILL:
7
And, finally, with the summons you received a
covering letter dated 13 March 2015?
8
MRS JACKSON:
9
MR HILL:
10
Yes.
And the documents before you appear to be copies of
the documents that you received?
11
MRS JACKSON:
12
MR HILL:
13
MR O’BRYAN:
14
Yes.
Yes.
I tender those four documents, Commissioner.
I will have those documents marked as a bundle.
Exhibit 135.
15
EXHIBIT #135 BUNDLE OF DOCUMENTS
16
MR HILL:
17
Mrs Jackson, as we understand it, you are currently
the business manager at the Sale College?
18
MRS JACKSON:
19
MR HILL:
20
And you’ve been in that position as business manager
now for some 35 years.
21
MRS JACKSON:
22
MR HILL:
23
Yes.
And can we take it that during that time, you’ve
seen a number of principals come and go at that school?
24
MRS JACKSON:
25
MR HILL:
26
Yes.
Yes.
Correct.
In terms of being the business manager, do you
have any formal qualifications?
27
MRS JACKSON:
28
MR HILL:
29
MRS JACKSON:
30
MR HILL:
A diploma.
In what?
In financial management.
In – and when did you obtain the diploma?
1400
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
A.M. JACKSON
1
MRS JACKSON:
2
MR HILL:
3
Right.
MRS JACKSON:
5
MR HILL:
6
MRS JACKSON:
8
9
MR HILL:
It was – once I got into the job, I did some
And can we take it that over the last 35 years,
you’ve attended many training courses to - - -
11
MR HILL:
12
MRS JACKSON:
13
MR HILL:
14
MRS JACKSON:
15
MR HILL:
16
MRS JACKSON:
19
After I started.
training through Deakin University.
MRS JACKSON:
18
No.
After it.
10
17
So before you commenced as the business
manager?
4
7
Be in the ’70s, yes.
Correct.
- - - better equip you with skills necessary - - Yes.
- - - to be the business manager of a school?
Yes.
Yes.
And where have those courses been?
In Sale?
A lot of them in Moe, Melbourne, Sale, Lakes
Entrance, Bairnsdale.
MR HILL:
Yes.
Have you attended any conferences or training
sessions interstate?
20
MRS JACKSON:
21
MR HILL:
22
MRS JACKSON:
23
MR HILL:
No.
Or overseas?
No.
The job of business manager at a school such as Sale
24
College presumably encompasses all types of duties and
25
responsibilities, but were you, in particular,
26
responsible for paying the accounts of the school?
27
MRS JACKSON:
I’m in charge of the finance, but I have three
28
finance people who actually process the orders and
29
invoices.
30
MR HILL:
Yes.
1401
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
A.M. JACKSON
1
MRS JACKSON:
2
MR HILL:
3
MRS JACKSON:
4
MR HILL:
5
MRS JACKSON:
6
MR HILL:
7
8
9
10
11
And what do you do?
You oversee them?
I oversee them.
Yes.
Yes.
The expression “banker school” is that an expression
that’s been known to you for some time?
MRS JACKSON:
Forever, the Ministry would prefer it to be
known as a coordinating school.
MR HILL:
Yes.
When did you first here the term banker
school?
12
MRS JACKSON:
13
MR HILL:
14
And raise the batches.
When I was employed probably, yes.
Moving perhaps to more recent times, say in the year
2006, was banker school a term that was often used?
15
MRS JACKSON:
16
MR HILL:
17
MRS JACKSON:
Yes.
Was Sale College ever a banker school?
Unofficially to semi-officially schools in that
18
time we would be running something for the area and then
19
at the end of the year the next area that had that – that
20
profile you would then balance up what was left into – no
21
– say move it onto the next school, so – and it’s not
22
unusual, no.
23
24
MR HILL:
So if we understand what you’re saying correctly one
year there may be a program within your area - - -
25
MRS JACKSON:
26
MR HILL:
27
Yes.
- - - in which a number of schools in that area will
participate - - -
28
MRS JACKSON:
29
MR HILL:
30
MRS JACKSON:
Yes.
- - - including your school?
Yes.
1402
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
A.M. JACKSON
1
2
MR HILL:
And one year your school may hold the money
centrally - - -
3
MRS JACKSON:
4
MR HILL:
5
- - - for those schools to pay out the expenses of
that program?
6
MRS JACKSON:
7
MR HILL:
8
9
10
11
Yes.
Yes.
And then the next year that responsibility and
duties would go to another school?
MRS JACKSON:
MR HILL:
Yes.
And is that how you understood the banker school
system to work?
12
MRS JACKSON:
13
MR HILL:
14
MRS JACKSON:
15
MR HILL:
16
MRS JACKSON:
17
MR HILL:
18
MRS JACKSON:
19
MR HILL:
Yes.
Or program - - Yes.
- - - coordinated - - Yes.
- - - program.
Yes.
And on the occasions where Sale College was holding
20
funds in that sense, the funds would come from the
21
Department itself?
22
MRS JACKSON:
23
MR HILL:
24
MRS JACKSON:
Yes.
And would these programs be documented?
Sometimes, not always.
You would get a grant to
25
say it was for innovations in excellence or whatever was
26
happening, but sometimes it would just come in as a
27
grant.
28
MR HILL:
Would these be grants that you’ve applied for?
29
MRS JACKSON:
30
MR HILL:
No.
So the money would come in as a grant?
1403
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
A.M. JACKSON
1
MRS JACKSON:
2
MR HILL:
3
MRS JACKSON:
4
MR HILL:
5
MRS JACKSON:
6
From whom?
From the Department.
From any specific person within the Department?
Some – they would just appear as a grant so I
couldn’t actually say from a specific person.
7
MR HILL:
8
MRS JACKSON:
9
Yes.
Right.
They would just appear in your bank account.
You - - -
10
MR HILL:
How would you know what the money was for?
11
MRS JACKSON:
Sometimes the principal would say to me, “We’re
12
getting X to run innovations in excellence.”
13
the finance manager at Moe would ring me to say that
14
we’re receiving X for something else.
15
16
MR HILL:
The region, what’s the region called within which
Sale - - -
17
MRS JACKSON:
18
MR HILL:
19
21
MR HILL:
And you would receive instructions from him as
head of finance within the region?
MRS JACKSON:
24
MR HILL:
Yes.
Yes.
Do you know a person by the name of Nino
Napoli?
26
MRS JACKSON:
27
MR HILL:
28
MRS JACKSON:
30
Finance, Wayne Carmody.
Yes.
23
29
And who was in charge of that
region in latter years?
MRS JACKSON:
25
Southern Eastern.
Southern Eastern.
20
22
Sometimes
Know of him.
And - - I’ve been at many business managers professional
developments where he’s spoken, but that’s the extent.
MR HILL:
All right.
So you’ve not met him personally or
1404
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
A.M. JACKSON
1
2
socialised with him in any way?
MRS JACKSON:
Never socialised with him.
I may have talked to
3
him with a coffee within the room of the professional
4
development with half a dozen other people, but he
5
wouldn’t know who I was.
6
MR HILL:
7
MRS JACKSON:
8
MR HILL:
9
10
Has he come to your school, to your knowledge?
Are you in regular contact, or have you been in
regular contact with Mr Wayne Carmody, the head of
finance for the south eastern region?
11
MRS JACKSON:
12
MR HILL:
13
14
No.
Yes.
What’s the nature of your relationship with him?
it solely professional?
MRS JACKSON:
Solely professional, but he is a great supporter
15
of country schools .
16
most of the processes to Dandenong, he was our first
17
point of contact.
18
Is
MR HILL:
And once it became that they moved
I would like to show you, if I might – so this is
19
page 6 of court book 16.
20
there, Mrs Jackson, you will see an EFT remittance advice
21
directed to Sale College, 26 May 2010 – sorry, there may
22
be two dates on it.
23
professional development, and the amount is $15,000.
24
you say how it was that that sum of $15,000 was deposited
25
into the bank account of Sale College?
26
27
28
29
30
MRS JACKSON:
If you look at the screen
28 May 2010.
It’s said to be for
Can
Yes, by direct grant into our high interest
account.
MR HILL:
Yes.
And was that a grant that the school had
applied for?
MRS JACKSON:
No.
1405
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
A.M. JACKSON
1
2
3
4
MR HILL:
Or was it a grant that had simply come from the
south eastern region?
MRS JACKSON:
It came - - -
5
MR HILL:
6
MRS JACKSON:
7
MR HILL:
8
MRS JACKSON:
9
A grant that came from the south eastern region.
Did you speak to Mr Carmody about it at any stage?
He rang.
And what did he say?
That Nino had rang him to say that the
professional development that was being run in
10
Bairnsdale, the documents that were to be printed, there
11
was a problem with the printer.
12
time, and he had organised for another printing company
13
to do it.
14
15
MR HILL:
17
MR HILL:
of $15,000 deposited in to your account?
MRS JACKSON:
20
MR HILL:
21
MRS JACKSON:
22
MR HILL:
The college’s account.
- - - the Sale College bank account.
Other than
that, did you know anything further about this $15,000?
MRS JACKSON:
25
MR HILL:
No.
Other than there would be invoices arriving that you
would have to pay from that amount of money.
27
MRS JACKSON:
28
MR HILL:
30
Yes.
When I say your account - - -
24
29
Yes.
And a short time after that conversation was the sum
19
26
So this is what Mr Carmody was telling you
he had been told by Mr Nino Napoli?
MRS JACKSON:
23
Would it be okay for us to pay the invoices?
Right.
16
18
They wouldn’t be done in
Correct.
Had that ever occurred in the past, to your
knowledge?
MRS JACKSON:
Yes.
1406
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
A.M. JACKSON
1
2
3
MR HILL:
And how frequently had that occurred in the past
that money had been placed into the college’s account?
MRS JACKSON:
It’s not frequently, but if a specific purpose
4
was going to be run, and it was within our region or –
5
that would happen.
6
7
8
9
10
11
MR HILL:
This was not really for a specific purpose though,
was it?
MRS JACKSON:
Well, I believed it was.
I believed it was for
a – either talking finance or a dollars and sense
professional development.
MR HILL:
Well, that was not the only transfer of moneys into
12
the college’s account.
13
time later, in July the same year.
14
MRS JACKSON:
15
MR HILL:
There was a further one a short
Yes.
Could we have, please, page 7 on the screen.
16
this is the second of the EFT remittance advices.
17
time it’s for $21,000.
18
MRS JACKSON:
19
MR HILL:
And
This
Do you see that?
Yes.
Was there any discussion with any person, Mrs
20
Jackson, about that amount of money prior to it or at the
21
time that it arrived into the college’s bank account?
22
MRS JACKSON:
I do believe, but I am not totally sure, that
23
some of that was some of the same sort of grant as
24
before.
25
MR HILL:
The description here is “SRP – that’s an
26
abbreviation for Student Resource Package – offline batch
27
000465”.
28
MRS JACKSON:
29
MR HILL:
30
What does that mean?
Nothing to me.
All right.
But you’re aware that that money too
went into the account?
1407
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
A.M. JACKSON
1
MRS JACKSON:
2
MR HILL:
3
4
Yes.
How was it dealt with in the books of account of
Sale College?
MRS JACKSON:
Under the way that DEET has changed the
5
accounting system from a line accounting system to
6
everything to – going into cash grants into unclassified
7
they like all the money to be in a bucket and for people
8
not to have specific balances.
9
10
MR HILL:
Right.
So this is in the high-yield interest
account?
11
MRS JACKSON:
12
MR HILL:
13
MRS JACKSON:
14
MR HILL:
Correct.
Rather than the cheque account?
Correct.
All the money goes into high yield.
And were there – was their specific accounting that
15
kept these amounts of money separate from the other
16
school moneys?
17
MRS JACKSON:
18
MR HILL:
You have to do a manual acquittal.
Right.
Well, we will come back to that in a moment.
19
But at about the same time, or shortly thereafter – I
20
will withdraw that.
21
situation that Mr Carmody told you that the money was
22
coming?
23
MRS JACKSON:
24
MR HILL:
25
On both occasions was it the
Yes.
And on both occasions did he make reference to Mr
Nino Napoli?
26
MRS JACKSON:
27
MR HILL:
Yes.
To the effect that this was money that was being
28
placed into the college’s account at the request of Mr
29
Napoli?
30
MRS JACKSON:
Yes.
1408
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
A.M. JACKSON
1
MR HILL:
Yes.
Could we have on the screen please page 12?
2
The company Encino Proprietary Limited, did you see that
3
invoice?
4
MRS JACKSON:
5
MR HILL:
6
MRS JACKSON:
7
MR HILL:
Yes.
At the time that it came to the school?
Yes.
You will see that there are a number of stamps on
8
it, one – order number 18934, received, checked account.
9
Do you recognise any of the writing on that?
10
MRS JACKSON:
11
MR HILL:
12
MRS JACKSON:
Yes.
What writing do you recognise?
My signature is received, and one of my accounts
13
payable to staff is the checked, and it’s – the stamp
14
states it has gone through the regional office.
15
MR HILL:
16
MRS JACKSON:
17
And what does the order number mean?
That was the order number that was raised for
the invoice.
18
MR HILL:
And why do you raise an order number?
19
MRS JACKSON:
To match it into our accounting system so that –
20
we always use the accounts payable so that we can track
21
every payment.
22
that you have an audit trail and create so that you can
23
see everything – if you ever pay that ..... again you can
24
track it.
25
26
MR HILL:
So you match an invoice to an order so
These were not goods that ever came to the Sale
College?
27
MRS JACKSON:
28
MR HILL:
29
MRS JACKSON:
30
MR HILL:
Correct.
And the principal at the time was Mr Craig Felstead?
Yes.
You will see another stamp on this particular
1409
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
A.M. JACKSON
1
invoice, “Department of Education and Early Childhood
2
Development, Gippsland region, 27 May 2010 received.”
3
MRS JACKSON:
4
MR HILL:
5
MRS JACKSON:
6
MR HILL:
7
Do you know who placed that stamp on this invoice?
invoice?
MRS JACKSON:
9
MR HILL:
MRS JACKSON:
11
MR HILL:
14
MR HILL:
17
MR HILL:
No.
note with it?
MRS JACKSON:
20
MR HILL:
25
No.
Do you know whether there was a covering letter or a
19
24
Did you see the letter with which it came?
Or the envelope I should say with which it came in?
MRS JACKSON:
23
Or
No.
Right.
16
22
I suppose – did you open the mail?
- - MRS JACKSON:
21
By mail.
By mail.
13
18
No.
How did the invoice actually come to Sale College?
10
15
No.
Do you know why such a stamp would be placed on the
8
12
Yes.
No.
Do you know how it was associated, this particular
invoice, with the grant that had been made of $15,000?
MRS JACKSON:
I – Wayne Carmody probably rang me to say it was
coming.
MR HILL:
Yes.
Did you yourself have any dealings at all with
anyone from Encino Proprietary Limited?
26
MRS JACKSON:
27
MR HILL:
No.
Did anyone at the school, to your knowledge, have
28
details – have – sorry, I will say that again.
29
anyone at the school have dealings with Encino
30
Proprietary Limited, to your knowledge?
1410
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
Did
A.M. JACKSON
1
MRS JACKSON:
2
MR HILL:
No.
Having received the invoice, could we have page 13
3
on the screen, please.
4
have told us, it was order number 18934, which we have on
5
the screen.
6
MRS JACKSON:
7
MR HILL:
8
MRS JACKSON:
9
MR HILL:
Was the order, I think as you
Yes.
Was that then filled out?
Yes.
When you either – when you normally would purchase
10
goods or seek services from an external provider, would
11
you fill out the order form before or after the invoice?
12
MRS JACKSON:
90 per cent of the time before, but there is a
13
section of invoices that you receive that you do the
14
order as they come in because you don’t have the proper
15
details of the company.
16
17
MR HILL:
Because normally when you get the invoice, that
means the job has been done.
18
MRS JACKSON:
19
MR HILL:
20
There’s a reason.
Correct.
And so normally you would complete the order form
before - - -
21
MRS JACKSON:
22
MR HILL:
23
MRS JACKSON:
24
MR HILL:
25
MRS JACKSON:
26
MR HILL:
Yes.
- - - the job is commenced
Correct.
And certainly before the invoice is ready.
Yes.
You’ve told us there were occasions when that wasn’t
27
done because you needed the full details of the company,
28
for example.
29
MRS JACKSON:
30
MR HILL:
Yes, the ABN number and things like that.
Any other examples?
1411
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
A.M. JACKSON
1
MRS JACKSON:
2
MR HILL:
No, I can’t think of any.
Now, in respect to this one, the handwriting on the
3
order form, is that known to you?
4
must admit but – perhaps if we scroll down, there are a
5
couple of signatures at the foot of the page.
6
7
8
9
10
11
MRS JACKSON:
Yes, it’s one of my accounts payable staff and
myself.
MR HILL:
Right.
So we’ve got signature “KLAC”, what does
that stand for?
MRS JACKSON:
Well, I actually think it’s A – A. Sheers, and
the bottom one, at the bottom is A.M. Jackson.
12
MR HILL:
13
MRS JACKSON:
14
MR HILL:
15
It’s a bit blurred I
Yes, but what is the – what are the letters KLAC?
K – key learning area coordinator.
Thank you.
Sorry.
And that’s one of the people within your
office.
16
MRS JACKSON:
17
MR HILL:
18
MRS JACKSON:
19
MR HILL:
Correct.
And it’s then signed by yourself.
Yes.
Yes.
And if we scroll up again, there was one
20
further signature which is that of the principal, under
21
the heading – just scroll up a little bit more.
22
the heading:
23
For any inquiries on this order, contact Craig Felstead.
24
MRS JACKSON:
25
MR HILL:
26
account staff.
MRS JACKSON:
28
MR HILL:
30
Yes.
Now, that clearly has been filled in by one of the
27
29
Under
Yes.
Do you know why his name was placed there as the
contact point if there were any inquiries on the order?
MRS JACKSON:
Because - - 1412
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
A.M. JACKSON
1
2
3
MR HILL:
Or was it – or was it just done as a matter of
routine?
MRS JACKSON:
Routine, but a discussion was had with him when
4
we were asked to pay these accounts, whether he was happy
5
with the process.
6
Wayne back and said, “Yes, that’s fine.”
7
8
9
10
11
MR HILL:
And then when he said yes, I rang
Did Mr Felstead at any time indicate any concern, be
it slight or otherwise, in respect to these accounts?
MRS JACKSON:
No, because it’s not unusual for us to
facilitate things for our area.
MR HILL:
Well, could we have page 11, and this is a copy of
12
the payment voucher for the same amount of money, $4950,
13
signed by the school principal, by yourself and by one
14
other person.
15
MRS JACKSON:
16
MR HILL:
17
And who was the other person?
MRS JACKSON:
19
MR HILL:
21
I don’t want to know
the name but the position.
18
20
Yes.
What year is it?
2010.
Was it likely to be one of – the assistant
principal?
MRS JACKSON:
It would either be the present school council
22
president.
23
not quite sure whether she was the treasurer or the
24
president at the time.
25
MR HILL:
She was treasurer and then president.
So I’m
We’ve seen a number of these from other schools
26
where it seems the assistant principal would often sign
27
them.
28
MRS JACKSON:
Not at Sale College.
We have a division of all
29
processes so all payments must be co-signed by the
30
principal and a member of our school council who is not a
1413
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
A.M. JACKSON
1
staff member.
2
more than seven days, then the vice principal may sign
3
but it still must be with somebody from the school
4
council.
5
payments at all.
6
MR HILL:
And if the principal is unavailable for
We do not have two staff member signing any
Would the school council member who signed this
7
credit voucher, or payment voucher have been told the
8
nature of the transaction?
9
10
11
MRS JACKSON:
MR HILL:
So it’s simply presented for signature by that
person with the accompanied documentation - - -
12
MRS JACKSON:
13
MR HILL:
14
MRS JACKSON:
15
MR HILL:
16
No.
Yes.
- - - presumably, the order and the invoice?
Yes.
Yes.
And I think as you’ve told us Sale College did
not receive any such product?
17
MRS JACKSON:
18
MR HILL:
No.
Could we have page 15, please, on the screen?
This
19
a further account or invoice sent to Sale College by
20
Encino Proprietary Limited.
21
2010 for $2640.
22
nor anyone within the school had any dealings with Encino
23
Propriety Limited?
24
MRS JACKSON:
25
MR HILL:
26
It’s dated 12 of October
Again, can we take it that neither you
Correct.
And again, the school did not receive any such
product?
27
MRS JACKSON:
28
MR HILL:
No.
But the tax invoices was dealt with in the same way
29
as the last transaction you’ve told us about, namely an
30
order form was prepared?
1414
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
A.M. JACKSON
1
MRS JACKSON:
2
MR HILL:
3
Yes.
Could we have page 16, please?
And do we see the
order form?
4
MRS JACKSON:
5
MR HILL:
Yes.
And then if we go to page 17, we will see the
6
creditor payment voucher.
7
in exactly the same way as the first one we’ve looked at?
8
MRS JACKSON:
9
MR HILL:
So the transaction was dealt
Yes.
Is that so?
10
MRS JACKSON:
11
MR HILL:
12
MRS JACKSON:
13
MR HILL:
Yes.
Yes.
Sorry.
Could I just take you very quickly to the next
14
invoice, page 18?
15
Proprietary Limited, but we’ve now moved you will see
16
from the date to the year 2012.
17
MRS JACKSON:
18
MR HILL:
This is the third invoice from Encino
Yes.
And it’s again said to be for printing of SRP school
19
material and for other matters including preparation of
20
PowerPoint and graphic presentation and it’s for a sum of
21
$4840.
22
MRS JACKSON:
23
MR HILL:
24
MRS JACKSON:
25
MR HILL:
26
27
Yes.
And the school paid for that invoice?
Yes.
And did the school see any printing materials as a
direct result of that invoice?
MRS JACKSON:
One of our campus principals did go to a
28
presentation and came back with a folder and we assumed
29
that it was from this batch of copies, but we now know
30
that it wasn’t.
1415
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
A.M. JACKSON
1
2
MR HILL:
No.
or graphic presentation?
3
MRS JACKSON:
4
MR HILL:
5
7
MR HILL:
MRS JACKSON:
11
MRS JACKSON:
12
MR HILL:
Yes.
Any reason for that?
No.
That’s just filled in because it needs to be filled
in.
14
MRS JACKSON:
15
MR HILL:
16
MRS JACKSON:
17
MR HILL:
Yes.
Is that right?
Yes.
Yes.
And just to conclude it, page 20, we have the
credit payment voucher.
19
MRS JACKSON:
20
MR HILL:
21
Yes.
contact person.
MR HILL:
18
Here’s the order
- - - that’s an easy one and this one has you as the
10
13
No.
number, order number 1000 that’s - - MRS JACKSON:
9
No.
Could we have page 19, please?
6
8
You didn’t receive at the school any PowerPoint
Yes.
Now, the school from time to time would be subject
to audit?
22
MRS JACKSON:
23
MR HILL:
24
MRS JACKSON:
25
MR HILL:
Correct.
And would you keep these documents?
Yes.
And do you keep them together so that, for example,
26
if there’s an invoice, you have the invoice, the order
27
form and - - -
28
MRS JACKSON:
29
MR HILL:
30
MRS JACKSON:
The batch.
- - - a copy of the – sorry.
The batch, yes.
You have it all together.
1416
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
A.M. JACKSON
1
MR HILL:
2
MRS JACKSON:
3
MR HILL:
4
MRS JACKSON:
5
MR HILL:
6
7
8
9
Yes.
And how are they stored for safekeeping thereafter?
And how would they be archived?
In
chronological order or - - MRS JACKSON:
No, they would be done in voucher in the school
reference to CRP number.
MR HILL:
Yes.
MRS JACKSON:
11
MR HILL:
So they’re placed in with their batches.
Now, I will take you to another Encino one.
You’ve
been through these documents before have you not?
13
MRS JACKSON:
14
MR HILL:
15
MRS JACKSON:
16
MR HILL:
17
Archived.
Yes.
10
12
And it’s all presented for audit.
I’ve had a look at them.
Yes.
Yes.
I just want to take you to another Encino one, page
20 because there’s a slight different here.
18
MRS JACKSON:
19
MR HILL:
20
MR WOODWARD:
21
MR HILL:
Okay.
Page 20, please.
Page 22.
Sorry.
I’m sorry, you’re quite right, page 22.
22
Now, this is said to be from Encino Proprietary Limited
23
and this is a quotation.
24
quotation at the school?
25
MRS JACKSON:
26
MR HILL:
Do you recall seeing the
I – yes, I do.
All right.
The quotation is said to be dated 5 of
27
September 2013.
Now, I don’t want you to assume for a
28
moment that that’s a correct date of not, but I want to
29
ask your memory.
30
from the invoice that follows it?
Did the quotation come in separately
1417
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
A.M. JACKSON
1
MRS JACKSON:
2
MR HILL:
3
MRS JACKSON:
4
MR HILL:
No.
And when you say no, what are you saying?
I believe it all came together with the invoice.
Yes.
Could we have a look, please, at page 21?
5
This appears to be the matching tax invoice to the
6
quotation.
7
MRS JACKSON:
8
MR HILL:
9
quotation and the invoice came at the same time?
MRS JACKSON:
11
MR HILL:
13
14
15
Yes.
And you believe that despite the differing dates the
10
12
You agree?
Yes.
Were you alerted to the fact that they would be
coming to the school or did they just arrive?
MRS JACKSON:
I would have received a phone call from Wayne
Carmody.
MR HILL:
Right.
And I’m reminded that neither of the tax
16
invoice or the quotation have a regional stamp on it.
17
Does that indicate that these came directly to the school
18
rather than through the regional office or do you not
19
know?
20
21
22
MRS JACKSON:
I don’t know, but I believe they would have gone
through the regional office.
MR HILL:
Right.
And could we have, please, page 23?
And
23
this is the order form that was drawn up to comply with
24
the processes of the college?
25
MRS JACKSON:
26
MR HILL:
27
MRS JACKSON:
28
MR HILL:
Yes, yes.
And the date of it seems to be 31 October 2013.
Yes.
Which tends to indicate that it was probably done at
29
least after the date of – that the tax invoice is dated
30
which was 19 October 2013?
1418
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
A.M. JACKSON
1
MRS JACKSON:
2
MR HILL:
3
Yes.
And perhaps tends to support what you say that the
quotation and the invoice came at the same time?
4
MRS JACKSON:
5
MR HILL:
Yes.
Because if the quotation had come earlier the order
6
form may well have had an earlier date on it to match
7
- - -
8
MRS JACKSON:
9
MR HILL:
It certainly would have, yes.
- - - to match the quotation?
10
MRS JACKSON:
11
MR HILL:
Yes.
Yes.
Again, could we see, please, page 24?
This is
12
the creditor payment voucher in part – actually I think
13
in our haste to get you back to Sale – could we have page
14
20, please, sorry.
15
voucher for the quotation and the invoice indicating that
16
the school paid that amount.
17
why it was that you were receiving on this occasion a
18
quotation?
19
MRS JACKSON:
20
MR HILL:
21
We’ve got the credited payment
Can you throw any light on
No.
It’s different from the previous transactions that
we’ve looked at because no quotation came.
22
MRS JACKSON:
23
MR HILL:
Correct.
And certainly the school never received these goods
24
which are said to be “graphic design, proof read and edit
25
of specific booklet, including 500 copies for school
26
induction and training program, print for colour and
27
bound as specified.”
28
MRS JACKSON:
29
MR HILL:
30
Yes.
Correct.
And the school hadn’t – the school clearly, as
you say, hadn’t asked for a quotation for such work.
1419
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
A.M. JACKSON
1
MRS JACKSON:
2
MR HILL:
3
4
No.
Did that intrigue you, that you were receiving a
quotation and the invoice at the same time?
MRS JACKSON:
No.
If they were doing it properly, they would
5
have sought two or three quotations to organise their
6
printing to get the best price.
7
MR HILL:
8
MRS JACKSON:
9
10
11
Yes.
13
MR HILL:
14
MRS JACKSON:
15
MR HILL:
16
MRS JACKSON:
17
MR HILL:
18
MRS JACKSON:
19
MR HILL:
That didn’t intrigue you?
No.
No.
And, again, you had been told by Mr Carmody to, in
effect, that it was coming and to pay it.
MR HILL:
Yes.
Again, was Mr Nino Napoli’s name mentioned in that
context?
24
MRS JACKSON:
25
MR HILL:
26
MRS JACKSON:
30
Yes.
No discussion with Mr Felstead or anyone else?
22
29
Yes.
Yes.
MRS JACKSON:
28
I don’t know.
And before the invoice is rendered.
21
27
Maybe it got
the work is commenced.
MRS JACKSON:
23
But they just forwarded it on.
But normally you would receive a quotation before
12
20
And - - -
caught up with the documents.
MR HILL:
That’s what we do.
Yes.
And what was said?
That it’s for another finance training program
that Nino was doing.
MR HILL:
Did you know of any connection between Mr Nino
Napoli and Encino Proprietary Limited?
MRS JACKSON:
No.
1420
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
A.M. JACKSON
1
MR HILL:
Could we have page 22 – sorry, could we have page 9
2
on the screen.
And you will see that this is an invoice
3
to Sale Secondary College from Customer Training and
4
Consulting Proprietary Limited.
5
12 October ’13, attention to the principal, Mr Craig
6
Felstead.
7
description on the invoice is:
8
Contracting of services and advice on the arrangements of
9
future schools governance and schools clusters.
The date is said to be
The total of the invoice is $1870.
The
This
10
includes presentation and recommendations for forward
11
planning.
12
Did any of that occur at your school?
13
MRS JACKSON:
14
MR HILL:
15
No.
Did anyone from Customer Training and Consulting
Proprietary Limited come to your school.
16
MRS JACKSON:
17
MR HILL:
18
MRS JACKSON:
19
MR HILL:
No.
Or provide any product to your school?
No.
Did you or anyone else at the school, in response to
20
this invoice, or at any time, have any dealings with
21
Customer Training and Consulting Proprietary Limited?
22
MRS JACKSON:
23
MR HILL:
No.
Presumably – if we could just scroll up, presumably
24
if you were to make contact, you would go to the contact
25
Cheryl that’s named in the box there under the - - -
26
MRS JACKSON:
27
MR HILL:
Yes.
- - - under the company’s name.
And, again,
28
following the procedure, there was a – and we will just
29
have it briefly put, page 10.
30
completed and that’s the order form?
There was an order form
1421
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
A.M. JACKSON
1
MRS JACKSON:
2
MR HILL:
3
Yes.
Filled out by one of the other people within your
- - -
4
MRS JACKSON:
5
MR HILL:
Yes.
- - - finance office.
And then page 11 we see the
6
school copy of the credit payment voucher indicating
7
payment.
8
MRS JACKSON:
9
MR HILL:
Yes.
If we could just have it – I think that’s the one,
10
is it?
11
thank you.
12
Page 8.
13
which matches the invoice.
14
MRS JACKSON:
15
MR HILL:
16
Sorry, page 8.
I’ve lost count.
And that’s the credit payment voucher for $1870
Yes.
fact that an invoice would be coming in?
MRS JACKSON:
18
MR HILL:
19
MRS JACKSON:
21
It’s an 8?
Could we have page 7,
Again, was it Mr Carmody that alerted you to the
17
20
No, I’m sorry, it’s not.
Yes.
And, again, did he mention Mr Napoli?
I would assume so.
I – I would – yes, I would
say for all those invoices they were.
MR HILL:
Now, since the investigation, have you – you’ve gone
22
back and had a look at the records of Sale College in
23
respect to these items?
24
MRS JACKSON:
25
MR HILL:
26
MRS JACKSON:
27
MR HILL:
28
Correct.
And to see if there are any other entries - - Yes.
- - - concerning suspect companies or suspect – or
potentially suspect dealings.
29
MRS JACKSON:
30
MR HILL:
Yes.
And you haven’t been able to find any others.
1422
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
A.M. JACKSON
1
MRS JACKSON:
Not that I could see, no.
Not in – we have paid
2
other invoices but I haven’t been able to find the
3
companies.
4
MR HILL:
Now, it seems to us that the college received 15,000
5
and then a further payment of 21,000, making $26,000 –
6
$36,000.
7
MRS JACKSON:
8
MR HILL:
9
MRS JACKSON:
10
11
MR HILL:
Yes.
Is that right?
Yes.
And if we add up these particular invoices, it comes
to the sum of 26,400.
12
MRS JACKSON:
13
MR HILL:
14
MRS JACKSON:
Yes.
Leaving a balance of some $9600.
Correct.
I think on one of the grants there was
15
3000 to go into the global budget, and for CRT.
16
sure.
But all balances are kept and not expended anyway.
17
MR HILL:
18
MRS JACKSON:
19
20
21
So what happens to the balances?
They stay in your bank account until the next
program is run.
MR HILL:
Right.
But there have been no further contacts in
respect to this money by Mr Carmody or - - -
22
MRS JACKSON:
23
MR HILL:
24
MRS JACKSON:
25
MR HILL:
26
MRS JACKSON:
27
MR HILL:
28
I’m not
No.
- - - or Mr Napoli through Mr Carmody?
No.
I don’t – no.
So the money still sits in the account.
Yes.
Yes.
When the auditors have been, have they been
since November 2013 to your school
29
MRS JACKSON:
30
MR HILL:
Yes.
Have they been through these transactions?
1423
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
A.M. JACKSON
1
MRS JACKSON:
2
MR HILL:
3
MRS JACKSON:
No.
Right.
I informed them that – that there was an IBAC
4
investigation, and if they wanted any further information
5
to either ring Wayne Carmody or our audit office.
6
didn’t know who to refer them to in Melbourne.
7
8
9
MR HILL:
Yes, thank you.
I should tender all of the pages
that were referred to from book - - MR O’BRYAN:
Well, in numerical order, I’ve got pages 6, 7, 9,
10
11, 13, 15, 16, 18, 20, 21, 22 and 23.
11
right?
12
MR HILL:
13
MR O’BRYAN:
14
MR HILL:
15
16
17
18
19
20
I
We think 24 – I’m sorry.
Does that sound
Possibly 13.
We have 13.
I’ve said that.
Have you?
We’re agreeing that if they could be
tendered as the one exhibit.
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
Well, those documents from book 16 will be
marked exhibit 135 – 136.
EXHIBIT #136 PAGES 6, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 16, 18, 20, 21, 22 AND
23 OF BOOK 16
MR O’BRYAN:
Thank you, Mr Hill.
Ms Walsh, I think the
21
position with your client is that it will be quite
22
unlikely that she will be needed again but we can never
23
be sure until we hear from all relevant witnesses.
24
also remains possible, although I would have though
25
unlikely, that another represented party might apply to
26
cross-examine your client and them they would need to
27
obtain leave by showing good cause for that.
It
28
So that’s up in the air at the moment too whether
29
anyone applies and if they do, whether they would get
30
leave.
So in other words, there may be no other reason
1424
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
A.M. JACKSON
1
to bring your client back but I just can’t say at the
2
moment now.
3
deferred any possible questioning or making of any
4
statement or submissions.
5
questions now, you can.
6
So far all representatives have just
If you want to ask any
If you want to defer, you can like everybody to date.
7
That’s up to you and – but, as I say, there’s no
8
guarantee that your client will come back and we can keep
9
in touch with you down the track about that and if you
10
wanted to defer and still wanted to ask some questions
11
down the track, of course you could and we just have to
12
arrange a convenient date.
13
do?
14
MS WALSH:
So what would you prefer to
At this stage, Commissioner, I prefer to reserve my
15
client’s position and particularly with respect to making
16
any written submissions, for instance, if the need arose.
17
MR O’BRYAN:
18
MS WALSH:
Yes, yes.
I suspect that unless someone else is going to
19
cross-examine, there won’t be any need for any further
20
oral evidence.
21
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
Okay then.
Yes, all right.
Well then, we
22
will assume that’s the case unless you tell us in the
23
next couple of weeks if you change your mind about oral
24
evidence.
25
MS WALSH:
26
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes, Commissioner.
And, as to submissions, it’s up in the air
27
whether or not we will have them down the track and you
28
will be notified about that.
29
Walsh.
30
it’s unlikely, your examination may need to be continued
So thank you very much, Ms
Well then, Mrs Jackson, as you’ve heard, although
1425
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
A.M. JACKSON
1
at a later date and is therefore adjourned to a date and
2
time to be fixed.
3
You remain bound by the summons and confidentiality
4
notice and you may be recalled at any time during the
5
course of this investigation to give further evidence.
6
You will, through your legal representatives, be advised
7
in writing if that is to occur and of the date and time.
8
You will also be advised in writing when you are no
9
longer required.
The time now is 2.27 pm.
10
stop the recording.
11
box.
12
MRS JACKSON:
13
MR O’BRYAN:
14
THE WITNESS WITHDREW
So please
You’re free to leave the witness
Thank you.
Thank you for your assistance.
[2.28 pm]
15
1426
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
A.M. JACKSON
1
MR O’BRYAN:
Now, as I understand it, the next and last
2
witness for today is Mr Graham Lane, represented by Ms
3
Kowalski.
4
MS WALSH:
5
MR O’BRYAN:
6
MS KOWALSKI:
7
MR O’BRYAN:
8
9
10
11
Ms Kowalski, good - - -
May I be excused, Commissioner?
Yes, you can.
Thank you.
Good afternoon, Commissioner.
Good afternoon.
Now, is your client in the
precincts, do you know?
MS KOWALSKI:
He is, your Honour.
He’s just sitting outside,
Mr Commissioner.
MR O’BRYAN:
All right.
Well, perhaps if somebody could –
12
somebody, I think, is going out to get your client.
13
have a seat at the bar table, Ms Kowalski, and we will
14
start when your client is here.
15
Lane.
16
This examination is to be video recorded.
17
the recording has commenced.
18
and the time is 2.28 pm.
19
Yes.
So
Good afternoon, Mr
Would you just have a seat there for a minute.
Please ensure
Today’s date is 8 May 2015
My name is Stephen O’Bryan.
I’m conducting this
20
examination under powers delegated to me by instrument
21
dated 5 September 2013, a copy of which has already been
22
exhibited and marked one.
23
and conducted under part 6 of the Independent Broad-based
24
Anti-corruption Commission Act 2011 as part of an
25
investigation under part 3 of that Act.
26
This examination is being held
I take this opportunity to draw your attention, Mr
27
Lane, and to your counsel the fact that this examination
28
is inquisitorial in nature.
29
bound by the rules of evidence and that I can regulate
30
the conduct of the examination as I consider appropriate.
This means that I’m not
1427
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
The examination is open to the public.
2
Mr Lane, you may be represented by Ms Kowalski,
3
however, the IBAC Act gives me the power to review that
4
decision in certain circumstances and, Ms Kowalski, you
5
will be given an opportunity at the conclusion of the
6
examination at an appropriate stage to ask your client
7
questions should you wish to or to make a statement or
8
submission on his behalf relevant to the investigation.
9
Ms Kowalski, I’m required to inform you as Mr Lane’s
10
legal representative of certain nondisclosure
11
requirements which apply to you pursuant to subsections
12
130(1)(d) and 44(2)(b) of the IBAC Act respectively,
13
namely, you may not disclose the restricted matters
14
specified in the confidentiality notice received by your
15
client and dated 13 March 2015 to any other person while
16
the notice has effect.
17
To do so is a criminal offence.
You may disclose the restricted matter specified in
18
the confidentiality notice in accordance with the
19
direction or authorisation given by me or another
20
appropriately qualified IBAC officer or for the purposes
21
of complying with a legal duty of disclosure or a
22
professional obligation arising from your professional
23
representation.
24
the witness box, please.
25
Lane.
Mr Lane, I would ask you now to enter
And to please be seated, Mr
Mr Lane, do you have middle name?
26
MR LANE:
Yes.
27
MR O’BRYAN:
David.
Pursuant to my delegated powers, Mr Lane, I now
28
require you to take an oath or to make an affirmation.
29
Which of those two options do you prefer?
30
MR LANE:
I will make an affirmation.
1428
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
GRAEME DAVID LANE, AFFIRMED
2
MR O’BRYAN:
[2.31 pm]
Thank you, Mr Lane.
Because this is an
3
inquisitorial examination, the procedure differs from
4
procedures which are adversarial in nature and of a kind
5
you normally see in the courts.
6
Woodward, will question you on matters relevant to the
7
subject matter of the investigation and I may also ask
8
you some questions.
9
Counsel assisting me, Mr
When Mr Woodward has concluded his questioning, as
10
you’ve heard, I will extend the opportunity to your
11
counsel to ask questions or to make submissions on your
12
behalf confined to matters about which you have been
13
examined and we will discuss with your counsel the timing
14
for that.
15
of the matters in respect of which you are to be asked
16
questions.
17
I’m required also to advise you of the nature
They are to give evidence before this Commission in
18
relation to your knowledge of matters the subject of the
19
scope and purpose described in the attached preliminary
20
information and directions for public examinations in
21
Operation Ord, namely, the ones that came with your
22
summons.
23
summons to attend, did you receive a document entitled
24
Section 121(3)(c) Statement of Rights and Obligations?
25
MR LANE:
26
MR O’BRYAN:
27
Yes, I did.
And has a lawyer or Ms Kowalski more particularly
been through that document with you?
28
MR LANE:
29
MR O’BRYAN:
30
Mr Lane, at the time you were served with the
Yes, thank you.
Finally, Mr Lane and Ms Kowalski, because this
investigation involves a protected disclosure, I’m
1358
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
D.B. CONWAY
1
required to advise you of two matters under the Protected
2
Disclosures Act.
3
criminal offence if you disclose the content or
4
information about the content of the disclosure.
5
Secondly, you would also be committing a criminal offence
6
if you disclose information likely to lead to the
7
identification of the person who made the assessable
8
disclosure.
9
First, you would be committing a
That of course assumes you know who that is and you
10
may not.
11
information about the content of the protected disclosure
12
to Ms Kowalski for the purpose of obtaining legal advice
13
or as part of your representation here.
14
satisfied that the limited exceptions which would allow
15
such disclosure do not apply in this case and I do not
16
allow disclosure for any other purpose.
17
Mr Lane, you may disclose the content or
I’m otherwise
Ms Kowalski, you may disclose such information for
18
the purposes of complying with a legal duty of disclosure
19
or a professional obligation arising from your
20
professional relationship with your client.
21
examination will now commence and I authorise Mr Woodward
22
to conduct it.
23
MR WOODWARD:
The
Mr Woodward.
Thank you, Commissioner.
Mr Lane, do you attend
24
here today pursuant to a summons that was served on you
25
in March?
26
MR LANE:
Yes, I do.
27
MR WOODWARD:
I will have handed to you, if I may, a copy of
28
some documents and just go through those with you
29
quickly.
30
the bundle, number SE1410.
The summons should be the second document in
Do you see that?
1359
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
D.B. CONWAY
1
MR LANE:
Yes.
2
MR WOODWARD:
3
MR LANE:
4
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
And behind that a confidentiality notice.
Yes.
And the third – the final document in the bundle
5
should be the Statement of Rights and Obligations the
6
Commissioner asked you about a moment ago.
7
MR LANE:
8
MR WOODWARD:
9
Yes.
dated 13 March.
10
MR LANE:
11
MR WOODWARD:
12
Correct.
MR LANE:
14
MR WOODWARD:
15
MR O’BRYAN:
17
Are those copies of the documents that were
served on you?
13
16
And on top of all of that was a covering letter
I believe so.
Thank you.
Yes.
I will tender those, Commissioner.
That bundle of documents will be marked
exhibit 137.
EXHIBIT #137 BUNDLE OF DOCUMENTS COMPRISING COVERING LETTER,
18
SUMMONS SE1410, STATEMENT OF RIGHTS AND OBLIGATIONS AND
19
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
20
21
MR WOODWARD:
is that the title – of - - -
22
MR LANE:
23
MR WOODWARD:
24
Mr Lane, you’re currently, I believe, the CEO –
Managing director.
Managing director of an organisation now called
– I will ask you – it’s SGV is the acronym.
25
MR LANE:
It’s SGA, School Governance Australia.
26
MR WOODWARD:
School Governance Australia.
Thank you.
And
27
that was – was that a body that was formerly known as
28
ASCIV?
29
MR LANE:
No, it’s not.
30
MR WOODWARD:
Okay.
So it has been a change - - 1360
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
D.B. CONWAY
1
MR LANE:
The ASCIV organisation was wound up - - -
2
MR WOODWARD:
3
MR LANE:
4
MR WOODWARD:
I see.
- - - and a new body commenced.
I see.
Okay.
So just for our information,
5
ASCIV, again an acronym, what was – what did that stand
6
for?
7
MR LANE:
8
MR WOODWARD:
9
10
The Association of School Councils in Victoria.
wide organisation?
MR LANE:
12
MR WOODWARD:
13
MR LANE:
14
MR WOODWARD:
Yes, it is.
17
MR WOODWARD:
20
MR WOODWARD:
24
Now, before you – you were also with its
Yes.
And how long have you been – and, sorry,
what was the formal title you had in ASCIV?
MR LANE:
23
Right.
I was, yes.
19
22
When did that change take place?
predecessor, ASCIV?
MR LANE:
21
Okay.
1 April 2014.
16
18
And do we take it from the change of
name that the current organisation is now an Australia-
11
15
Right.
I was the CEO.
The CEO.
And how long had you held that
position?
MR LANE:
About 13 months.
From February 2013 to – 12 months
– to February 2014 when ASCIV was wound up.
MR WOODWARD:
Right.
Now, perhaps not your immediate
25
predecessor, but a predecessor of yours in that role at
26
ASCIV was Mr Franzi-Ford?
27
MR LANE:
That’s correct.
28
MR WOODWARD:
29
MR LANE:
30
MR WOODWARD:
And he died in – was it 2012?
July 2012.
Yes.
And was – what happened in the period
1361
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
D.B. CONWAY
1
between his death and your appointment?
2
MR LANE:
The organisation effectively didn’t operate.
3
MR WOODWARD:
4
MR LANE:
Right.
Stephen did every – there was – it’s – there was
5
Bill who was the president and Steve, the CEO, and Steve
6
pretty much did everything and then he passed away.
7
knowledge and everything else pretty much passed with
8
him.
9
10
11
MR WOODWARD:
MR LANE:
The
Right.
And I was approached in September by Bill who – Bill
Gordon who is the - - -
12
MR WOODWARD:
13
MR LANE:
The president?
- - - president to see – to gauge my interest in
14
taking over the organisation, but, at that time, I was in
15
other employment - - -
16
MR WOODWARD:
17
MR LANE:
18
Right.
- - - and I indicated that I was interested, but
wouldn’t be able to do so until January 2014.
19
MR WOODWARD:
20
MR LANE:
21
MR WOODWARD:
22
MR LANE:
23
MR WOODWARD:
24
MR LANE:
25
MR WOODWARD:
Two thousand and?
Fourteen.
Fourteen.
Sorry, 13.
Yes.
I was going to say 13.
Sorry, sorry.
Yes.
Now – well, could we just briefly go back
26
through your employment.
27
were approached to take on that role?
28
MR LANE:
29
MR WOODWARD:
30
MR LANE:
Yes.
Where were you working when you
I was with the Department of Education.
In what role?
Principal at Hawthorn West Primary School.
1362
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
D.B. CONWAY
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
MR WOODWARD:
I see.
How long were you the principal of
Hawthorn West Primary?
MR LANE:
It was an interesting appointment.
On and off for
18 months.
MR WOODWARD:
Right.
Okay.
Was it a – when you – why was it
on and off?
MR LANE:
The principal was on sick leave and I was replacing
8
him for the periods he was on sick leave, but I was also
9
at the school when he returned – on periods when he
10
returned to work as an advisor - - -
11
MR WOODWARD:
12
MR LANE:
13
14
15
16
I see.
- - - to the principal.
arrangement.
MR WOODWARD:
No.
So it was a sort of an odd
Can’t describe it any more than that.
I understand.
And prior to your time at
Hawthorn West Primary, where were you?
MR LANE:
I left the Education Department in two thousand and
17
– August 2010.
18
Education Department as a principal.
19
20
21
22
MR WOODWARD:
Prior to that, I had been employed by the
So there was a period between you leaving the
Education Department and starting at Hawthorn West?
MR LANE:
Yes.
I – and I run an educational consultancy and I
was running that business during that time - - -
23
MR WOODWARD:
24
MR LANE:
All right.
- - - and do – currently, as well, the job with
25
School Governance Australia only employs me two days a
26
week.
27
28
MR WOODWARD:
I see.
And before 2010, what was your role at
the Department?
29
MR LANE:
I was principal at Balwyn North Primary School.
30
MR WOODWARD:
Balwyn North Primary.
And how long had you held
1363
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
D.B. CONWAY
1
that role?
2
MR LANE:
17 years.
3
MR WOODWARD:
4
MR LANE:
And before that?
Essendon Primary School.
I was there for 18 months
5
and prior to that, Coolaroo Primary School, and I was
6
there for five years and I was a teacher prior to that.
7
They were all principal roles.
8
9
10
11
MR WOODWARD:
Michael Giulieri was on staff?
MR LANE:
He was the assistant principal for three years of
the five I was there.
12
MR WOODWARD:
13
MR LANE:
14
While you were at Coolaroo Primary School, Mr
And you came to know him during that time?
I had met him prior to that, but, yes, but got to
know him - - -
15
MR WOODWARD:
16
MR LANE:
17
MR WOODWARD:
Well, yes.
- - - much better over that period.
So just revisiting that briefly, your time as a
18
principal, apart from the Balwyn North stint – series of
19
stints – you ceased in 2010 effectively.
20
MR LANE:
Yes.
21
MR WOODWARD:
And during that period when you were a
22
principal, including at Hawthorn, Mr Lane, what – are you
23
familiar with the term banker school?
24
MR LANE:
Yes.
It’s normally called program coordinator
25
school, but I understand that it’s being referred to as
26
banker schools here.
27
MR WOODWARD:
Well, perhaps let’s explore that.
When you say
28
“normally called”, it does – the term banker school
29
certainly seems to be the, if you like, term by which
30
it’s commonly known.
Is that a fair statement?
1364
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
D.B. CONWAY
1
MR LANE:
2
MR WOODWARD:
3
Yes, it is.
MR LANE:
5
MR WOODWARD:
7
8
9
Perhaps its more formal title might be
program coordinator schools.
4
6
Yes.
Program coordinator, yes.
And do you – at least in your mind, are those
terms synonymous?
MR LANE:
Given what I’ve read in the papers in recent times,
I would say no.
MR WOODWARD:
Okay.
Can we go back to the time when you first
10
learnt of the existence of this name.
11
the time that they were effectively synonymous?
12
MR LANE:
No.
Did you believe at
I would have said that the schools referring to
13
themselves as banker schools were holding funds for other
14
– for the purposes of clusters of schools, or for
15
ancillary SSSO staff, for travel, buying of psychology
16
tests, those sorts of things, was the main reason for
17
having them.
18
MR WOODWARD:
So that, at least in your mind, banker schools
19
back in that period, 2010 and earlier, were schools
20
holding funds for local programs, in effect?
21
MR LANE:
Yes.
22
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
And at least in your mind, at the time,
23
was a program coordinator school the same – doing the
24
same thing?
25
MR LANE:
26
MR WOODWARD:
27
The same, yes.
So at least, at that time, the terms were
synonymous.
28
MR LANE:
29
MR WOODWARD:
30
Yes.
Yes.
I follow.
Again, were you aware of schools that
either did or didn’t call themselves banker schools also,
1365
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
D.B. CONWAY
1
from time to time, holding funds that were used for
2
purposes that were unrelated to the school or the region
3
in which the school operated?
4
MR LANE:
5
MR WOODWARD:
6
Yes.
MR LANE:
8
MR WOODWARD:
10
Yes.
And to your knowledge, was your school
ever in that position – any of your schools?
7
9
I was aware of some of them.
No, no.
To your knowledge, how did that system – well,
how was that supposed to work?
MR LANE:
Look, I don’t know that much about it.
My
11
understanding was that it was usually something like a
12
regional general manager, or one of the senior
13
bureaucrats in town would say to a principal, “Can you
14
hold some money for me for, you know, gifts and things
15
like that”, because it’s easier to do it through a school
16
than it is to do it out of the central office.
17
MR WOODWARD:
I see.
And was that something – just to be
18
clear, was that a practice that you were aware of in the
19
period 2010 and earlier?
20
MR LANE:
Yes, yes.
21
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
And was it the case then that, from time
22
to time, you heard people talk about a particular banker
23
school being that office’s banker school?
24
words, to take an example, if - - -
25
MR LANE:
Yes, yes.
26
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
In other
I was aware of a couple of those, yes.
Can we move forward some way and can I ask
27
you, Mr Lane, how long have you known about the IBAC
28
investigation, do you think?
29
30
MR LANE:
My first knowledge of it was when the Ultranet IBAC
inquiry, which was March last year, I think - - 1366
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
D.B. CONWAY
1
MR WOODWARD:
2
MR LANE:
3
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
That’s when I sort of became aware of it.
You became aware then that IBAC had an interest
4
in matters relevant to the Education Department, to put
5
it broadly?
6
7
8
9
10
MR LANE:
Yes.
Once it was in the papers.
I didn’t – hadn’t
heard of it prior to it being in the papers.
MR WOODWARD:
Okay.
And since that time, it would be fair to
say you’ve had numerous discussions with a number of
people about the investigation?
11
MR LANE:
Yes.
12
MR WOODWARD:
That would be fair.
Yes.
Can I go through some of those people who
13
you may have spoken with over that period.
14
have you had any conversations with him?
15
MR LANE:
16
MR WOODWARD:
17
MR LANE:
18
MR WOODWARD:
19
No.
No contact with Jeff Rosewarne.
Do you know Mr Rosewarne?
I do.
Yes.
So is he someone you would have had
contact with from to time in previous years?
20
MR LANE:
21
MR WOODWARD:
22
Mr Rosewarne,
Yes.
I’ve known Jeff on and off for about 30 years.
Okay.
And what – how would you describe your
relationship with him over that period?
23
MR LANE:
Friendly, but not friends.
24
MR WOODWARD:
25
MR LANE:
Not friends.
Did you socialise with him?
Occasionally he would be at a dinner that I would be
26
at or something like that and we would talk, but that’s –
27
you know, effectively, most of my relationship with him
28
was either – when I was deputy president of the
29
Principal’s Association, I had a weekly with him about
30
departmental matters that affected principals and I would
1367
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
D.B. CONWAY
1
2
occasionally have a coffee.
MR WOODWARD:
And you say you’ve had no contact with him at
3
all either over the phone or in person in relation to the
4
IBAC investigation?
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
MR LANE:
No.
I haven’t spoken to Jeff since he left the
Education Department.
MR WOODWARD:
Right.
Can we move to Mr John Allman.
You’ve
spoken to him?
MR LANE:
Yes.
MR WOODWARD:
I know John very well.
And you’ve had, what, a number of conversations
with him concerning the IBAC investigation?
MR LANE:
Two or three, the last one being in about October
13
when there was a lot of news in the paper and I rang him
14
to check on his welfare basically to see how he was
15
doing.
16
MR WOODWARD:
17
18
When do you think was the first conversation you
had with Mr Allman about - - MR LANE:
June or July, I would think, last year where John –
19
I would regularly catch up with John for a dinner a
20
couple of times a year and I know we caught up June or
21
July.
22
and we did discuss it at that point.
23
24
25
26
I couldn’t tell you the date at this stage, but –
MR WOODWARD:
with Mr Allman?
MR LANE:
on.
Nothing in depth, it was just about what was going
Did he know anything?
27
MR WOODWARD:
28
MR LANE:
29
MR WOODWARD:
30
And what sort of thing do you recall discussing
What did he tell you?
He said, “No, I don’t know much at all.”
Did he talk to you at all about his own
potential involvement in the - - 1368
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
D.B. CONWAY
1
MR LANE:
2
MR WOODWARD:
3
MR LANE:
4
MR WOODWARD:
5
No, he did not.
No.
MR LANE:
7
MR WOODWARD:
8
MR LANE:
10
What about on any of the later conversations
with him did - - -
6
9
He didn’t.
The one in October we did - - Yes.
And - - -
- - - because it was pretty clear that – that the –
the papers were talking about John.
And I – and as I
said I rang him to ask how he was doing.
11
MR WOODWARD:
12
MR LANE:
Yes.
And – and he basically said he was doing okay and if
13
there was going to be after a lot of people not just him.
14
He didn’t think it was a problem.
15
16
MR WOODWARD:
about what he thought his problem might be?
17
MR LANE:
18
MR WOODWARD:
19
MR LANE:
20
MR WOODWARD:
21
Did he talk to you in any more detail on that
No.
Did he mention any schools?
No.
Now, Mr Napoli is someone you’ve had a number of
conversations with.
22
MR LANE:
Yes, he is.
23
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
When did you first speak to Mr Napoli or
24
perhaps I should first put in in context.
25
you known Mr Napoli?
26
MR LANE:
27
MR WOODWARD:
28
29
30
How long have
The best part of 30 years, yes.
And is he someone you would describe as a
friend?
MR LANE:
Friend, friendly, yes, I’ve visited his house, we’ve
had dinner together and those sort of things.
1369
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
I’ve known
D.B. CONWAY
1
and I’ve worked on a number of Department projects with
2
him over the – over that period of time.
3
4
MR WOODWARD:
Have you met members of his family over that
period?
5
MR LANE:
Yes, I have just recently.
6
MR WOODWARD:
7
MR LANE:
How recently?
Post – post his – he had an operation for quadruple
8
bypass and I visited him at his house several times after
9
that.
10
11
12
13
MR WOODWARD:
you think in that - - MR LANE:
Yes, I’ve met Ralph a couple of times and Matthew I
think once and - - -
14
MR WOODWARD:
15
MR LANE:
16
MR WOODWARD:
17
And his wife, Josephine?
Yes, a couple of times
And you’ve had numerous telephone conversations
with Mr Napoli.
18
MR LANE:
19
MR WOODWARD:
20
And so you met his sons Matthew and Ralph, do
Yes.
And in the course of those conversation was the
IBAC investigation a pretty common topic?
21
MR LANE:
A lot of the time, yes.
22
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
And what sort of thing were – was Mr
23
Napoli telling you about what he understood the
24
investigation to be about and any role he may have had in
25
it?
26
MR LANE:
In most of those conversations he was telling me he
27
had no role in that and that he would – he – he had done
28
nothing wrong.
29
everything because I’m the finance director.”
30
MR WOODWARD:
And, “Don’t worry, my name’s on
Yes.
1370
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
D.B. CONWAY
1
MR LANE:
You know, Jeff or Darrell or someone else had signed
2
off on everything, he was – these were the things, he was
3
reassuring me that there was no problem - - -
4
MR WOODWARD:
5
MR LANE:
6
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
- - - most of that time.
Did the – that sort of approach or at least the
7
way in which he was describing or he was talking about
8
his own role, did that change over time during the course
9
of last year?
10
MR LANE:
Yes, it did.
November 27 or 28, I don’t remember
11
the date, but around about then, the – it was a Thursday,
12
I probably should have looked up the date, he rang me
13
quite agitated and said he needed to see me.
14
engaged in a whole range of meetings that day which I
15
shifted around and I eventually arrived at his house at
16
about 5 o’clock.
17
I was
And he started then to tell me that he’d been very
18
silly, he’d done some things that were quite wrong.
19
I – at that stage I said, “You shouldn’t be telling me
20
those things.”
21
appearing before IBAC I think on the 10 or 12 of
22
December.
23
know,” tried to reassure him in terms of the – I’ve got a
24
different view of it now perhaps, but that – that
25
wouldn’t affect our friendship as such, he’d done the
26
wrong thing and he needed to own up and be part of it.
27
MR WOODWARD:
And
I was aware that he was going to be
And – and I – and I said, “Well, look, you
I want to come back to particularly the
28
conversations you had with Mr Napoli in more recent –
29
towards the end of last year, but just to finish off the
30
list of individuals.
Mr Fraser, have you discussed the
1371
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
D.B. CONWAY
1
IBAC investigation with him?
2
MR LANE:
3
MR WOODWARD:
4
MR LANE:
5
MR WOODWARD:
6
MR LANE:
7
MR WOODWARD:
8
9
No, I haven’t seen Darrell for two years.
He is again someone you’ve known for some time?
Yes, about ten years, not - - Yes.
- - - not a huge amount of time.
Again, well, how would you describe the nature
of your relationship with him?
MR LANE:
Probably a professional relationship.
I worked for
10
him for a period of time and we shared some common
11
interests in education.
12
13
MR WOODWARD:
the investigation - - -
14
MR LANE:
15
MR WOODWARD:
16
MR LANE:
17
MR WOODWARD:
18
19
20
Yes.
- - - on a few occasions.
Yes.
What other teachers or principals or former
principals have you spoken to about the investigation?
MR LANE:
Briefly with Tony Hilton, that would have been the
middle of last year I guess.
21
MR WOODWARD:
22
MR LANE:
23
Mr Giulieri is someone you’ve spoken to about
And what did Mr Hilton tell you about it?
He didn’t tell me anything, we just – it was just a
very general discussion of - - -
24
MR WOODWARD:
25
MR LANE:
Topic of conversation.
- - - “Have you heard?” basically and – and the
26
answer was, “Yes, I’d heard, but didn’t know anything
27
about it,” and he didn’t offer any more on that at that
28
stage.
29
MR WOODWARD:
30
And you were, I understand, in a sense sort of
keeping a track of what was happening with the
1372
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
D.B. CONWAY
1
investigation.
2
of what schools were being visited by investigators?
3
MR LANE:
4
MR WOODWARD:
For instance, you had a pretty good idea
People were telling me, yes.
Yes.
And was that because you were yourself
5
actively going out to find out or people just
6
volunteering that information?
7
MR LANE:
8
MR WOODWARD:
9
10
No, people were just telling me.
Yes.
And because you have a – in your role in
particular, but more generally have a fairly good network
in the Education Department?
11
MR LANE:
Yes, I do.
12
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
Just returning to your discussions with Mr
13
Napoli, you said the conversation where things got a
14
little bit – well, he seemed agitated to you was in late
15
November.
16
leading up to that time?
17
MR LANE:
18
MR WOODWARD:
19
MR LANE:
20
MR WOODWARD:
21
MR LANE:
You had had other conversations with him
Two or three - - Yes.
- - - over – over the preceding six months.
Yes.
Only two or three?
That I can recall, there may have been more, but I
22
mean, we talked – we had lots of conversations, but – but
23
there are only a couple that I can recall that were
24
actually about IBAC.
25
MR WOODWARD:
And you do say you recall a significant shift in
26
his – the sort of approach to the conversation by the end
27
of November?
28
MR LANE:
29
MR WOODWARD:
30
Yes.
Can I have played, please, to you, Mr Lane, this
is clip 1918, clip A?
This is a conversation on 14
1373
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
D.B. CONWAY
1
November 2014.
2
to you, Mr Lane, a transcript.
3
extract of the conversation, but there are some things
4
that were discussed in it which I wanted to ask you a few
5
questions about.
6
AUDIO PLAYED
7
MR WOODWARD:
8
9
10
You will have come up on the screen next
I should say it’s only an
As I said, Mr Lane, this was 14 November so a
bit before - - MR LANE:
Twenty-eighth.
MR WOODWARD:
The conversation you’re referring to earlier.
11
It seems, Mr Lane, and I’ll ask you whether this was your
12
impression as well from this and probably earlier
13
conversations, that Mr Napoli’s doing his best to get as
14
much information as he can about where the investigation
15
is at and which schools he’s been to and so on.
16
your impression at the time?
17
MR LANE:
18
MR WOODWARD:
Was that
I would – I would agree with that, yes.
And you were able to based on information that
19
had been provided to you, you do make it clear that
20
you’re not chasing the information, that the you’re able
21
to tell him about some schools you know that have been
22
visited?
23
MR LANE:
Yes, that’s true.
24
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
It’s a little bit obscured, Mr Lane, but
25
if we can perhaps go to line – it’s the previous page,
26
line 83 on the previous page of the transcript.
27
where Mr Napoli says, “Vin, you know, he was a banker
28
school for,” and then you spoke over him.
29
we right to recognise that as again a concept that you
30
referred to earlier in your evidence of where banker
1374
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
You will
Is that – are
D.B. CONWAY
1
schools were often identified as being a banker school
2
for a particular individual?
3
MR LANE:
4
MR WOODWARD:
5
MR LANE:
6
MR WOODWARD:
7
MR LANE:
8
MR WOODWARD:
9
It would be, but I don’t know that - - Yes.
- - - circumstance at all.
You don’t know that particular one - - -
No.
- - - but it’s a concept that you had some
familiarity with?
10
MR LANE:
Yes.
11
MR WOODWARD:
And of the other schools mentioned – well, Mr
12
Bryant was mentioned.
13
at Silverton Primary.
14
MR LANE:
15
MR WOODWARD:
You knew him to be the principal
Correct.
And did you also know that that was a school
16
that – and I think this is on Mr Allman’s own evidence,
17
that it was his – Mr Allman’s banker school?
18
MR LANE:
Not at that stage.
19
MR WOODWARD:
20
MR LANE:
21
MR WOODWARD:
You didn’t know that then?
No.
You also have noticed, no doubt, the references
22
to Balwyn High and huge amounts of money going through
23
Balwyn High.
24
MR LANE:
Yes.
25
MR WOODWARD:
What – that was both you and Mr Napoli seemed to
26
make a similar remark about that.
27
we talking about there?
28
MR LANE:
What sort of money are
Well, the money I was talking about was – most of it
29
would be described as a legitimate banker school
30
arrangement.
They held money for SSSO staff or held
1375
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
D.B. CONWAY
1
money for TSSP which is the technical school support.
2
Now, that would have been a lot of money.
3
4
MR WOODWARD:
being operated as a banker school - - -
5
MR LANE:
6
MR WOODWARD:
7
Do you have any other knowledge of it being –
Beyond that?
- - - other than in the way you’ve described as
legitimate?
8
MR LANE:
No, no.
9
MR WOODWARD:
Can I ask you this, Mr Lane, based on your own
10
obviously detailed knowledge of the way the system works.
11
The impression that we have is that most of the banker
12
schools that were used in the – if I can use the
13
expression, less legitimate way, were primary schools.
14
Is that an impression that you have?
15
MR LANE:
Yes, it would be.
16
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
And is – to your knowledge, is there a reason
17
why a primary school might be a preferred banker school
18
for that kind of transaction?
19
MR LANE:
Well, it’s an opinion, it’s – my opinion would be
20
that secondary schools have very high level business
21
managers or bursars with – usually with accounting
22
qualifications and so on, whereas most of the primary
23
schools would have a person who is relatively
24
unqualified.
25
reason for doing it.
26
MR WOODWARD:
And I would suspect that would be one
We also heard evidence just a short time ago
27
from Mrs Jackson that at least at Sale College the system
28
there that they operated in relation to approving
29
payments and invoices requires that a school council
30
member who is not a staff member sign off on every - - 1376
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
D.B. CONWAY
1
MR LANE:
Every transaction, yes.
2
MR WOODWARD:
3
MR LANE:
4
MR WOODWARD:
- - - every significant payment.
Yes.
Whereas we’ve seen from earlier evidence that
5
quite often the parties signing off would include the
6
principal, the assistant principal and the business
7
manager in the primary school.
8
you – you’re aware of?
9
MR LANE:
Yes, it is.
Is that a difference that
The regulation on it is open in that
10
the second signature – one signature must be the
11
principal.
12
councillor so it could be a staff member or a parent.
13
14
MR WOODWARD:
The second signature must be a school
It could be another staff member.
But do you
know whether there was a - - -
15
MR LANE:
But not the business manager.
16
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
Do you know whether there was a practice
17
that perhaps at secondary schools it was more commonly
18
required that it be someone other than staff member be
19
the second signatory, or is that - - -
20
MR LANE:
That would be my experience but – but I wouldn’t say
21
it was – it was what was there.
22
document does suggest that we keep that all separate.
23
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
The internal controls
So ideally all schools, at least in your
24
experience, should operate a system where the second
25
signatory is always a non-staff member.
26
MR LANE:
Yes.
27
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
You refer in the – at the excerpt we’ve
28
just heard, to Mr – to Mick, and I assume that’s a
29
reference to Mick Giulieri.
30
MR LANE:
Yes, it is.
1377
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
D.B. CONWAY
1
2
MR WOODWARD:
later in November, didn’t you?
3
MR LANE:
4
MR WOODWARD:
5
And he was someone you had a conversation with
Yes, I did.
Yes.
And that was a conversation after he had
visited IBAC.
6
MR LANE:
No, prior.
7
MR WOODWARD:
8
MR LANE:
9
MR WOODWARD:
Prior.
Did you speak to him again afterwards?
I don’t remember.
Yes.
I – yes, I spoke to him.
Yes.
Do you recall then having a conversation
10
with Mr Napoli at a point between when Mr Giulieri first
11
went to IBAC and then you knew he was about to go back
12
- - -
13
MR LANE:
Yes.
14
MR WOODWARD:
- - - and Mr Napoli was asking you questions
15
concerning what Mr Giulieri had said to IBAC?
16
ring a bell?
17
18
19
MR LANE:
No, it doesn’t, but it’s a possibility.
Does that
There was a
lot going on at that stage and it was fairly distressful.
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
Do you recall either at – at any stage Mr
20
Napoli encouraging you to give some guidance to Mr
21
Giulieri about how he should conduct himself in his
22
discussions with IBAC?
23
MR LANE:
Sorry, Mick – Nino did ring me and tell me to tell
24
Mick not to lie, to tell the truth and nothing – tell the
25
truth, tell the truth.
26
too late.
27
28
29
30
MR WOODWARD:
But by that stage it was sort of
In the sense that Mr Giulieri had already been
and started to tell the truth.
MR LANE:
He had already – he had already been to the
investigators at that stage, yes.
1378
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
D.B. CONWAY
1
MR WOODWARD:
I should have – you did say you hadn’t spoken to
2
Mr Fraser for a couple of years, so you had not discussed
3
the investigation with him at any point.
4
MR LANE:
No.
5
MR WOODWARD:
Can I just come briefly to the role of ASCIV,
6
slash, SGA.
7
they essentially fulfil a similar role.
8
MR LANE:
9
MR WOODWARD:
10
I appreciate they’re not the same body but
They do.
Yes.
Mr Franzi-Ford, to your knowledge, did he
have a good relationship with Mr Napoli?
11
MR LANE:
Yes, I believe he did.
12
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
And also we’ve seen some information that
13
would suggest – and heard some evidence, indeed, that
14
would suggest that in the period particularly 2013 Mr
15
Napoli, himself, was regularly attending SGA meetings?
16
MR LANE:
17
MR WOODWARD:
18
MR LANE:
19
20
He was attending as a critical friend.
Yes.
What’s a critical friend?
A person who provides advice, support and – and
checks us on what we’re doing.
MR WOODWARD:
Did you also understand that Mr Napoli had some
21
ambitions to have a more active role in SGA in the
22
future?
23
MR LANE:
Yes, I did.
24
MR WOODWARD:
25
MR LANE:
What was that?
He was keen – in our regional discussions, he was
26
keen post-working for the Education Department that he
27
might have a role within SGA.
28
to become the CEO of that organisation.
29
30
MR WOODWARD:
Particularly he was keen
And what was – what was he – what was he doing,
to your observation, to improve his prospects of that?
1379
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
D.B. CONWAY
1
MR LANE:
He was making sort of offers around what he could do
2
in terms of the broader scope of what we might be doing
3
Australia–wide.
4
MR WOODWARD:
5
MR LANE:
Yes.
Those sorts of things.
Particularly in the areas of
6
professional development for the school – school
7
governing bodies and their financial understanding.
8
9
MR WOODWARD:
SGA, how was ASCIV funded generally?
10
MR LANE:
11
MR WOODWARD:
12
MR LANE:
13
MR WOODWARD:
14
MR LANE:
15
MR WOODWARD:
16
17
18
Membership from schools.
So individual schools?
Yes, and some sponsorship.
Did – well, schools paid a membership fee.
Yes.
And then was there anything provided on top of
that?
MR LANE:
There was training offered, you know, and they paid
– the schools would pay for training.
19
MR WOODWARD:
20
MR LANE:
21
How was – back in – before the establishment of
Yes.
Any other grants or other payments.
For ASCIV, I’m not sure.
over or prior?
22
MR WOODWARD:
23
MR LANE:
24
MR WOODWARD:
25
MR LANE:
Sorry, from when I took
I’m sorry.
Well, from when you over.
From when I – when I took over?
Yes.
Okay.
Yes.
We received a grant from Jim – Jim
26
Watterson who was the deputy secretary to fund training
27
for school councils over a two-year period.
28
29
30
MR WOODWARD:
Did more than memberships ever come from
particular schools?
MR LANE:
There were payments from schools for training.
1380
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
D.B. CONWAY
1
MR WOODWARD:
2
MR LANE:
3
4
5
Yes.
If we went and did training at the school, they paid
us a fee for that.
MR WOODWARD:
But to your knowledge, no particular grants out
of schools?
6
MR LANE:
Not that I’m aware of, no.
7
MR WOODWARD:
I just want to ask you about a particular amount
8
of money that you may or may not know anything about.
9
Can we go to court book 7, page 13, please.
This is
10
exhibit 97.
11
Lane, a subprogram account transaction report for
12
Chandler Park Primary School.
13
imagine, with this kind of report - - -
14
MR LANE:
15
MR WOODWARD:
You will see on the screen in a moment, Mr
You will be familiar, I
Yes, yes.
- - - from the schools at which you worked.
And
16
this, we understand from the evidence, was the line item
17
9356 C21 finance support funds into which the Chandler
18
Park Primary School recorded funds provided essentially
19
by Mr Napoli.
20
just notice, towards the bottom you will see a reference
21
to an amount, dated 30 June 2011.
22
MR LANE:
23
MR WOODWARD:
24
MR LANE:
25
MR WOODWARD:
And I wanted to ask you, if you would, to
Yes.
It’s highlighted, ASCIV.
Yes.
And it says something – I think it says “merging
26
schools consultancy, $10,000.”
27
about that sum of money?
28
MR LANE:
29
MR WOODWARD:
30
Do you know anything
I can’t shed any light on that, no.
Would – if $10,000 had come in from, say,
Chandler Park to ASCIV, would – is that something you
1381
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D.B. CONWAY
1
would generally know about?
2
MR LANE:
3
MR WOODWARD:
4
MR LANE:
5
MR WOODWARD:
6
7
8
9
10
I would be pretty happy about it, yes.
Yes.
Is that the type – would you - - -
But I – I wasn’t with the organisation.
You weren’t with the organisation.
And that was
before your time?
MR LANE:
Yes.
I was – I’ve had two connections with – sorry,
do you want me to explain this or - - MR WOODWARD:
MR LANE:
Yes, please do.
Okay.
Yes.
Two connections with ASCIV.
In 2002 and 2003
11
I was on the ASCIV board but it rarely met, and I did
12
some work with the – the organisation developed a
13
governance manual, and myself and Caroline Woodhouse, who
14
was also on the board at that time, worked with the
15
organisation to produce that manual.
16
presumably I was on the board but I think we met twice
17
over a two-year period.
18
deputy president of the principals association and I
19
didn’t have time to be doing – doing both.
20
I’ve had long term engagement, if you like, with the
21
organisation but nothing to do with it between – by
22
basically 2003 and 2013.
23
MR WOODWARD:
Okay.
And I was –
And after that I became the
So I had –
But would it be fair to say if that kind
24
of money was coming in – well, that kind of payment
25
coming into an organisation like ASCIV, at least to your
26
experience, from a primary school would be unusual?
27
MR LANE:
Yes.
28
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
I also want to ask you about some other
29
documents that have been in evidence before the
30
Commission, Mr Lane.
Again, they’re – well, I was going
1382
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D.B. CONWAY
1
to say they’re before your time.
2
what their time is - - -
3
MR LANE:
4
MR WOODWARD:
We don’t actually know
Right.
- - - but there are some references in them to
5
Mr – to ASCIV and Mr Franzi-Ford and I just wanted to get
6
a sense from you, if you could assist us, to understand
7
whether or not the sort of role that’s reflected in this
8
memo is something that you think someone in Mr Franzi-
9
Ford’s position would be undertaking.
So if we could go
10
to page – still in court book – to page 34, please.
11
document purports to be – it’s dated February 2009:
12
Chandler Park Primary local administrative bureau study.
13
Principal business manager and school council CEO, Mr
14
Franzi-Ford, have agreed to continue to provide support
15
and research into the development of school hubs for
16
small primary schools in country Victoria.
17
initiative we wish to explore and support, however it
18
requires experienced business managers –
19
And you can read the rest for yourself, Mr Lane.
20
MR LANE:
21
MR WOODWARD:
22
This is an
Yes, yes.
So was – Mr Franzi-Ford was, at that time, the
CEO of ASCIV?
23
MR LANE:
24
MR WOODWARD:
25
This
Yes, he was.
And does any of that sound to you as though it’s
something that Mr Franzi-Ford might be involved in?
26
MR LANE:
I’m aware of that particular project.
27
MR WOODWARD:
28
MR LANE:
29
MR WOODWARD:
30
MR LANE:
Okay.
It was - - So what was the project?
- - - called the LAB, the Local Administrative
1383
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D.B. CONWAY
1
Bureau and I am aware that Mr Franzi-Ford had some role
2
in that, but I couldn’t tell you what it was.
3
MR WOODWARD:
4
MR LANE:
Right.
It was about developing a support for small schools
5
where they would have effectively someone with business
6
manager skills working for them, but it was an online
7
system, because most of the small schools don’t have
8
enough money to employ someone with high level
9
qualifications in the school, so they outsourced it via
10
11
this bureau.
MR WOODWARD:
Okay.
Could we go – that, I think, is already
12
an exhibit, although it’s an exhibit as court book, page
13
131 where it also appears, Commissioner.
14
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
15
MR WOODWARD:
The next one is page 38 and this forms part of
16
exhibit 95.
17
please.
18
paragraph, if we can just scroll down, to Mr Franzi-Ford
19
there.
20
that letter.
21
MR LANE:
22
MR WOODWARD:
23
24
25
MR LANE:
Okay.
Does that sound like the sort of thing that Mr
I’m aware that Stephen and Peter were quite good
friends, but - - -
27
MR LANE:
30
Don’t place any store in the date that appears on
Franzi-Ford might be doing?
MR WOODWARD:
29
Again, you will see a reference in the second
Right.
26
28
Actually, we might go to – no – yes, 38,
That’s Stephen Franzi-Ford and Peter Paul?
Franzi-Ford and Peter Paul.
But I – it seems to be
an unusual thing to me.
MR WOODWARD:
Again, it seems to be referring only – just
slightly under a year later to:
1384
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D.B. CONWAY
1
Requiring release of business managers whom is well-
2
regarded.
3
associated – expenses associated with this initiative –
4
and so on.
5
grant will be made available.
6
sort of thing that ASCIV would be so actively involved in
7
to you?
8
MR LANE:
9
MR WOODWARD:
Will be making available $50,000 for the
Mr Franzi-Ford has been informed that the
Does that sound like the
I wouldn’t have thought so, but - - -
10
MR LANE:
11
MR WOODWARD:
Would not have thought so?
- - - I have no knowledge of it.
No.
Okay.
Just based on your own experience
12
through ASCIV, SGA and your time as a principal, Mr – I
13
should perhaps ask you first, Mr Lane, have you been
14
following, other than in the – well, in the paper and
15
perhaps even by reading transcripts, the progress of this
16
investigation?
17
MR LANE:
Pretty much, yes.
18
MR WOODWARD:
19
MR LANE:
20
MR WOODWARD:
21
MR LANE:
22
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
And you’ve learnt some things that - - -
I didn’t know before.
No.
Quite a number.
And you would have picked up perhaps that one of
23
the matters that’s of concern to the Commission in
24
investigating these matters is the – what – perhaps
25
cultural or other factors may have been present in the
26
Department in this period that essentially seems to have
27
allowed the conduct that we’re investigating to occur
28
and, indeed, to occur over a long period of time and
29
remain unnoticed.
30
own experience as to that matter whether - - -
Do you have any reflections from your
1385
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D.B. CONWAY
1
MR LANE:
Things that I now know more than things that I did
2
know, I guess.
3
knew his work very, very well, and I think there was a
4
great deal of trust placed in him and I would say that
5
has been misplaced.
6
MR WOODWARD:
Nino was very affable, very considerate,
And what about, more generally, the culture
7
among those in the finance area over the period late
8
2000s into 2010, ’11 and ’12, have you got any
9
observations in relation to whether those – whether there
10
are cultural factors, or the way in which the senior
11
people worked together that may have contributed to this?
12
MR LANE:
Well, Jeff and Nino were very close friends.
They
13
had both – I met them originally when they were working
14
in western region 30-odd years ago and so they had – and
15
they had remained friends through that time, so I guess
16
there’s an aspect that that may be a causal factor, but I
17
certainly know lots of people that I’ve known for 30
18
years that I would trust, but perhaps, in this case, not.
19
MR WOODWARD:
We saw from the extract – the audio extract
20
earlier that one of the people that Mr Napoli seemed to
21
be particularly interested in, whether there was a level
22
of knowledge about, was Mr Rosewarne, or Jeff, which we
23
assume to be Mr Rosewarne.
24
MR LANE:
Yes.
25
MR WOODWARD:
It would have been Mr Rosewarne, yes.
Have you learnt in the last 12 months from Mr
26
Napoli or, indeed, from any other sources matters that
27
you – about Mr Rosewarne?
28
that Mr Rosewarne might be concerned about?
29
30
MR LANE:
No.
Has Mr Napoli told you things
He really didn’t mention .....
I think.
You
know, at this stage, I think he was pumping me for
1386
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
D.B. CONWAY
1
information more than getting anything out of him in
2
those terms.
3
saying anything to me.
4
him saying anything to me.
5
6
MR WOODWARD:
Look, I – no – I can’t remember him
He may have, but I can’t remember
You will have seen references to the wine, for
instance.
7
MR LANE:
8
MR WOODWARD:
9
No.
Yes.
I’ve seen all that, yes, but I wasn’t - - And is that something that Mr Napoli ever
mentioned to you in those conversations?
10
MR LANE:
No.
11
MR WOODWARD:
No.
And finally, Mr Lane, just again perhaps at
12
a broader level, to your knowledge, has there
13
historically been any training or other process by which
14
people in the position of a business manager, for
15
example, or a principal at a primary school – small
16
primary school might be educated or assisted in
17
understanding where these sorts of things can occur?
18
MR LANE:
There are two programs;
Talking Finances which is
19
suitable for business managers and, for that matter,
20
principals, and for assistant principals or other people
21
working in that area, and another one called Dollars and
22
Cents which it has a bigger focus on the staffing side of
23
things;
24
package report.
25
training programs.
26
those.
27
available – the beginning principals.
28
resourcing the principalship program which runs, I think,
29
about an hour and a-half in a full day program and about
30
an hour and a-half is on finances.
the SRP report as it’s called, student resource
So there’s those two fairly extensive
They’re a day in length, each, of
And beginning principals get two programs
1387
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
One is part of the
And within – there’s
D.B. CONWAY
1
another program called Evolve, which is a program for
2
first-time principals, and they get another 50-odd minute
3
session on finances in that program as well.
4
5
MR WOODWARD:
Would they – would it be fair to say that those
programs are largely focused on managing the finances?
6
MR LANE:
Yes.
7
MR WOODWARD:
Day to day rather than the big picture, yes.
And do they – do you know whether they deal with
8
issues such as conflict of interest, or potential for
9
fraud or mismanagement?
10
MR LANE:
Not really, no.
11
MR WOODWARD:
12
MR LANE:
No.
No.
There is another program called Law and Order,
13
but I haven’t – that’s a recent program;
14
part of that program, so I wouldn’t know what’s actually
15
in it, which may cover those things.
16
MR WOODWARD:
I haven’t been
But, to your knowledge, at least until recently,
17
there was no system of training or, indeed, any other
18
process by which principals and business managers might
19
be assisted to – basically to skill them to identify
20
potential fraud?
21
MR LANE:
No.
Other than those two programs where it is part
22
of the program, the – there’s a document called Internal
23
Controls for Schools and it does come up in those
24
programs, but I think people are encouraged to read and
25
understand it themselves rather than being perhaps walked
26
through it, and I guess an expectation that people are
27
trained on the job in those thing as well.
28
29
30
MR WOODWARD:
I did say “finally”, but there is one other
topic I wanted to ask you about.
MR LANE:
Sorry.
1388
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D.B. CONWAY
1
MR WOODWARD:
Prizes and awards, Mr Lane, are they – there are
2
various prizes and awards that principals and others are
3
eligible for?
4
MR LANE:
5
MR WOODWARD:
6
7
Correct.
Are there any particular principal-type prizes
that you can identify?
MR LANE:
Well, there’s a number.
There’s school leader of
8
the year, primary school leader of the year.
There’s a
9
program for developing high performing principals.
It
10
has got a different name now;
11
couldn’t tell you what the name of it is now.
12
available;
13
prizes around the same sort of things;
14
or secondary principal of the year, those sort of things.
15
16
17
MR WOODWARD:
different name.
that was what it was.
I
It’s still
There’s usually regional
you know, primary
And who makes decisions about – ultimately about
who might receive one of those awards?
MR LANE:
They’re all run by various panels and I couldn’t
18
tell you who was on the panel, they – they’re a yearly
19
thing.
20
MR WOODWARD:
21
MR LANE:
Yes.
I couldn’t tell you who was on the panels, but I can
22
say in past experience it would have been, I know John
23
Allman sat on some of them, Darrell sat on some of them,
24
Jeff sat on some of them.
25
else from - - -
26
MR WOODWARD:
27
MR LANE:
There would have been someone
Nino Napoli.
I don’t know to be honest.
Probably the business
28
managers one he may have sat on, but I – but again, I – I
29
– that’s not knowledge I know, but I’m – I’m suggesting
30
he would have been because the next – bar a senior
1389
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
D.B. CONWAY
1
bureaucrat the next one would have been a person who was
2
seen to be responsible for that sort of work in the
3
schools, so logically the business manager one probably
4
was Nino.
5
appropriate association and sometimes another person,
6
principal or – or a business manager just from general
7
school population.
8
9
10
MR WOODWARD:
There was usually someone from the – the
Would it be fair to say that the people, the
central people would likely to have been people of some
influence on those panels?
11
MR LANE:
You would assume so, yes.
12
MR WOODWARD:
And probably unlike others may have a – been in
13
a position to have a better knowledge of a broader range
14
of potential applicants for those prizes than anyone
15
else?
16
MR LANE:
Yes, that would be true.
17
MR WOODWARD:
18
MR O’BRYAN:
That’s all I have.
Thanks, Mr Woodward.
Thanks, Commissioner.
Ms Kowalski, I think the
19
position is that it’s quite unlikely your client will
20
need to be recalled, but it remains possible.
21
may be aware other legal representatives have at least
22
the right to apply to cross-examine, it doesn’t say they
23
will be granted leave, but they can try and if that were
24
to occur it’s possible that might be granted depending on
25
the grounds.
26
And as you
So that to date you may be aware that other
27
representatives have deferred to see what happens.
28
can defer and, or if you have any questions you could ask
29
them now if you want to?
30
MS KOWALSKI:
You
We prefer to defer, your Honour – Commissioner.
1390
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
D.B. CONWAY
1
MR O’BRYAN:
You’ll defer.
All right.
Well, then can you
2
keep in touch, if you don’t mind, with the solicitor for
3
the Commission, Ms Walker?
4
letting her know within a fortnight whether or not you
5
would want to ask questions whatever – regardless of what
6
happens or whether you don’t and also to make any
7
statement or submissions.
8
9
And in terms of perhaps
It’s possible down the track there might be
submissions – a submissions process, but then again there
10
may not be, but you will be kept in the loop on all of
11
that.
12
MS KOWALSKI:
13
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
And otherwise I think if you just keep in touch
14
and we will see how we go.
15
on the basis, if you’re happy with this, that if we don’t
16
hear from you within say a fortnight we will assume that
17
you’ve got no questions you want to ask publicly - - -
18
MS KOWALSKI:
19
MR O’BRYAN:
20
21
22
And I would like to leave it
I see.
- - - if that’s all right?
All right.
MR WOODWARD:
Satisfactory to you?
Thank you.
Commissioner, I’m sorry I’ve been reminded I
needed to tender the clip - - -
23
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
24
MR WOODWARD:
25
MR O’BRYAN:
26
MR LANE:
27
MR O’BRYAN:
28
MR WOODWARD:
29
MR O’BRYAN:
30
MR WOODWARD:
- - - 1918, clip A.
That’s the telephone?
Yes.
So TI 1918 - - Clip A
- - - A.
And the transcript.
1391
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
D.B. CONWAY
1
MR O’BRYAN:
2
EXHIBIT #138 TELEPHONE INTERCEPT SESSION 1918, CLIP A.
3
MR WOODWARD:
4
MR O’BRYAN:
5
And the transcript will be marked exhibit 138.
Commissioner, please.
Thank you.
Nothing else?
Thank you, Ms
Kowalski.
6
MS KOWALSKI:
7
MR O’BRYAN:
Thank you, Commissioner.
Now, the time is 3.18 pm, so please stop the
8
recording.
9
Lane, just to finish up, as you’ve heard from me it’s
10
unlikely you will be needed, but your examination may
11
necessarily need to be continued at a later date and is
12
therefore adjourned to a date and time to be fixed.
13
remain bound by the summons and confidentiality notice
14
and you may be recalled at any time during the course of
15
the investigation to give further evidence.
16
Well, before you do stop the recording, so Mr
You
You will be advised through your lawyers in writing
17
if that is to occur and of the time and date.
18
also be advised in writing through them when you are no
19
longer required.
20
21
You will
The time now is 3.19 pm, so please stop the recording
and you’re free to leave the witness box, thank you.
22
MR LANE:
Thank you.
23
THE WITNESS WITHDREW
24
MR O’BRYAN:
And now there’s nothing else from counsel
25
assisting, well, then I will adjourn until the next
26
examination which is to take place on Monday, 18 March,
27
which is Monday week.
28
MR WOODWARD:
29
MR O’BRYAN:
30
May.
I’m sorry, of May, at 10.00 am and so we’ll
adjourn until then.
Thank you.
1392
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D.B. CONWAY
1
MATTER ADJOURNED at 3.19 pm UNTIL MONDAY, 18 MAY 2015.
1393
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D.B. CONWAY