TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
INDEPENDENT BROAD-BASED ANTI-CORRUPTION COMMISSION
MELBOURNE
TUESDAY 19 MAY 2015 AT 10.03 AM
(11th day of examinations)
MR STEPHEN O’BRYAN, Commissioner
MR IAN HILL QC, Counsel Assisting
MR TED WOODWARD SC, Counsel Assisting
OPERATION ORD INVESTIGATION
PUBLIC EXAMINATIONS PURSUANT TO PART 6 OF THE INDEPENDENT
BROAD-BASED ANTI-CORRUPTION COMMISSION ACT 2011
AUSCRIPT
UNCLASSIFIED
1
MR O’BRYAN:
2
MR HILL:
Good morning, Mr Hill.
Good morning, Commissioner.
Commissioner, we
3
thought it appropriate at this stage, bearing in mind
4
that hopefully tomorrow we will have completed the public
5
examinations of the principals and business managers from
6
the so-called banker schools or program coordinator
7
schools, that we broadly outline the plans for the public
8
examinations to follow.
9
Ms Gail Hart, an employee at the time from the Department
10
11
The first witness today will be
and central office.
She, together with the witness yesterday, Ms Zahara,
12
have been pulled somewhat out of turn to accommodate pre-
13
existing travel arrangements both had, because our
14
intention is to call most of what might be referred to as
15
head office staff towards the end of the program of
16
public examinations.
17
Hart, there is one more principal, one more business
18
manager to be called and a number of commercial providers
19
to the Department or to the banker schools, including,
20
for example, Mr Foley, the owner of Caravan Music, Mr
21
Bell, the director of Premier Office Solutions, a Mr
22
Stecher of Dycom Business Systems and a Mr Ian Madison,
23
formerly a member of the Department of Education and,
24
more latterly, a consultant.
25
Once we have concluded with Ms
During this period whilst we’re examining these
26
witnesses and later this week, we anticipate publicly
27
examining Mr Wayne Carmody, a regional director of the
28
Department of Education, and Mr Stephen Brown, a former
29
regional director in respect to, I think, the Hume region
30
and former executive director within the Department.
1655
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
In
DISCUSSION
1
the week commencing next Monday, 25 May, we will begin
2
publicly examinations of the associates and family
3
members of Mr Nino Napoli, concluding with Mr Nino Napoli
4
probably commencing the week, Monday, 1 June.
5
Once that has been achieved, those public
6
examinations, we then propose a short break before
7
calling Mr Darrell Fraser, and recalling Mr Allman and Mr
8
Rosewarne.
9
10
MR O’BRYAN:
There will also be some evidence from - - -
When you say “a short break”, do you mean start
them after the long weekend?
11
MR HILL:
12
MR O’BRYAN:
13
MR HILL:
Thereabouts, yes.
Yes.
There will also be evidence from some individuals
14
who had dealings with, or associates of, Mr Allman, Mr
15
Rosewarne, and Mr Fraser and, as we indicated earlier
16
this morning, we then move to several Department
17
employees and officers based essentially at head office,
18
Treasury Place in East Melbourne, and that probably will
19
take us somewhere around the last two weeks or
20
thereabouts of June this year when the public
21
examinations in Operation Ord should conclude.
22
MR O’BRYAN:
23
MR HILL:
24
25
Yes.
Thank you.
That, very broadly and loosely, is the program as we
envisage it at the moment.
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
Thank you.
And I take it there have not to
26
date been any applications to cross-examine any
27
witnesses?
28
MR HILL:
29
MR O’BRYAN:
30
No, there have not.
Yes.
Well, Mr Thomas, that gives you an idea of
the program.
1656
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
MR THOMAS:
2
MR O’BRYAN:
That’s very helpful, sir.
Yes.
All right.
Thank you, Mr Hill.
3
in attendance?
4
prefer Ms Hart or Mrs Hart?
5
MS HART:
6
MR O’BRYAN:
7
MS HART:
8
MR O’BRYAN:
9
Yes.
Thank you.
Is Ms Hart
If you just stay there.
Ms Hart is fine.
Do you
What’s your - - -
Thanks.
Miss?
Ms Hart.
Ms.
And I understand, Ms Armstrong – good
morning, Ms Armstrong.
If you take a seat at the bar
10
table, I will just do some preliminaries first.
11
examination is to be video recorded.
12
recording.
13
10.09 am.
14
this examination under powers delegated to me by
15
instrument dated 5 September 2013, a copy of which has
16
already been marked as exhibit 1.
17
This
Please commence the
Today’s date is 19 May 2015 and the time is
My name is Stephen O’Bryan.
I am conducting
This examination is being held and conducted under
18
part 6 of the Independent Broad-Based Anti-Corruption
19
Commission Act 2011 as part of an investigation under
20
part 3 of that Act.
21
attention, Ms Hart, and to your legal representative’s
22
attention, that this examination is inquisitorial.
23
means that I am not bound by the rules of evidence and I
24
can regulate the conduct of the examination in such ways
25
as I consider appropriate.
26
I take this opportunity to draw your
This examination is open to the public.
This
Ms Hart, you
27
may be represented by Ms Armstrong, however the IBAC Act
28
gives me the power to review that decision in certain
29
circumstances.
30
opportunity at the conclusion of the examination to ask
Ms Armstrong, you will be given an
1657
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
Ms Hart questions which you feel could clarify any
2
answers she gives, or to make a statement or submission
3
on her behalf relevant to the investigation at an
4
appropriate stage which we can discuss after the
5
examination.
6
Ms Armstrong, I am required to inform you, as Ms
7
Hart’s legal representative, of certain non-disclosure
8
requirements which apply to you pursuant to subsections
9
(130)(1)(d) and 44(2)(b) of the IBAC Act, namely you may
10
not disclose the restricted matter specified in the
11
confidentiality notice received by your client and dated
12
11 December 2014 to any other person while the notice has
13
effect.
14
however, disclose the restricted matter specified in the
15
notice in accordance with a direction or authorisation
16
given by me, or another appropriately qualified IBAC
17
officer, or for the purposes of complying with a legal
18
duty of disclosure, or a professional obligation arising
19
from your professional representation.
20
To do so is a criminal offence.
You may,
I would ask you at this stage, Ms Hart, to please
21
enter the witness box.
22
you have a middle name?
23
MS HART:
24
MR O’BRYAN:
25
MS HART:
26
MR O’BRYAN:
Please be seated, Ms Hart.
Ina.
Ina spelt?
I-n-a.
Pursuant to my delegated powers, I now require
27
you to take an oath or make an affirmation.
28
those two options do you prefer?
29
MS HART:
30
MR O’BRYAN:
Do
Which of
An affirmation, thank you.
Would you please repeat after me.
1658
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
GAIL INA HART, AFFIRMED
2
MR O’BRYAN:
[10.11 am]
Thank you.
Because this is an inquisitorial
3
examination, the procedure differs from procedures which
4
are adversarial in nature.
5
Woodward, will question you on matters relevant to the
6
subject matter of the investigation and I may also ask
7
you some questions.
8
Woodward has concluded, your legal representative will,
9
at an appropriate stage, should she wish to, be given an
Counsel assisting me, Mr
And as you’ve heard, when Mr
10
opportunity to ask you questions or to say something on
11
your behalf relevant to the matters you will be
12
questioned about.
13
Some other preliminary matters.
I am required to
14
deal with these.
15
the matters in respect of which you are to be asked
16
questions.
17
Commission in relation to your knowledge of matters the
18
subject of the scope and purpose described in the
19
preliminary information and directions for public
20
examinations in Operation Ord, a copy of which ought to
21
have been attached to your summons.
22
you were served with the summons to attend, did you
23
receive a document titled Section 121(3)(c) Statement of
24
Rights and Obligations?
25
MS HART:
26
MR O’BRYAN:
27
They are to give evidence before this
Ms Hart, at the time
Yes, I did.
And have you been through that document with your
legal representative?
28
MS HART:
29
MR O’BRYAN:
30
Firstly, to advise you of the nature of
Yes, I have.
Thank you.
Finally, Ms Hart and Ms Armstrong,
because this investigation involves a protected
1659
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
disclosure under the Protected Disclosures Act, I am
2
required to advise you of two matters.
3
be committing a criminal offence if you disclose the
4
content or information about the content of the
5
disclosure.
6
criminal offence if you disclose information likely to
7
lead to the identification of the person who made the
8
assessable disclosure.
9
First, you would
Secondly, you would also be committing a
Ms Hart, you may disclose the content or information
10
about the content of the protected disclosure to Ms
11
Armstrong for the purposes of obtaining legal advice or
12
as part of your representation here.
13
satisfied that the limited exceptions which would allow
14
such disclosure do not apply in this case and I do not
15
allow disclosure for any other purpose.
16
you may disclose such information for the purposes of
17
complying with a legal duty of disclosure or a
18
professional obligation arising from your professional
19
relationship with your client.
20
assumes that you know those things, which you may not.
21
The examination will now commence and I authorise Mr
22
Woodward to examine you.
23
MR WOODWARD:
I am otherwise
Ms Armstrong,
That all, of course,
Thank you, Mr Woodward.
Thanks, Commissioner.
Good morning, Ms Hart.
24
You attend here today pursuant to a summons served on
25
you?
26
MS HART:
Yes, I do.
27
MR WOODWARD:
I’m going to have handed to you a copy of what
28
should be the documents that you received, starting with
29
a covering letter dated 13 March 2015;
30
MS HART:
do you see that?
Yes, I do.
1660
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
2
MR WOODWARD:
And then the summons, which is numbered SE1405,
should be the next document in the bundle.
3
MS HART:
Yes, it is.
4
MR WOODWARD:
And then a confidentiality notice that was
5
served on you at an earlier time.
6
that there?
7
MS HART:
8
MR WOODWARD:
9
10
Yes, I do.
Statement of Rights and Obligations.
MS HART:
12
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
That’s there as well.
And you – those are copies of the documents that
you received and pursuant to which you appear today?
14
MS HART:
15
MR WOODWARD:
16
And, finally, the document to which the
Commissioner directed your attention a moment ago, the
11
13
Do you have a copy of
Yes.
Thank you.
I will tender those, please,
Commissioner.
17
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
They will be marked exhibit 148.
18
EXHIBIT #148 BUNDLE OF DOCUMENTS
19
MR WOODWARD:
Ms Hart, you began with the Department of
20
Education, then known as the Department of Education and
21
Early Childhood Development, in the year 2000?
22
MS HART:
Yes.
23
MR WOODWARD:
24
MS HART:
25
MR WOODWARD:
November 2000.
And you left in about 2013;
Yes, I did.
Yes.
is that correct?
I retired.
So there’s quite a bit for us to go
26
through.
What I propose to do, Ms Hart, is to take you
27
through your time at the Department, the various roles
28
you had and some of the matters that came to your
29
attention in that period.
30
separately with the issue of banker schools, about which
And then I want to deal
1661
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
I think your involvement was a little less direct.
2
we will come to that at the conclusion.
3
beginning at the Department in November 2002 what were
4
you doing?
5
6
MS HART:
Infrastructure.
MR WOODWARD:
8
MS HART:
9
MR WOODWARD:
MS HART:
11
MR WOODWARD:
12
MS HART:
15
16
I had been there - - -
And how long - - -
Sorry.
10
14
Prior to
I was a public servant at the Department of
7
13
But
Go on.
How long were you there?
For 18 months.
And before that?
I worked in Department of Human Services for about –
maybe about 15 years I think.
MR WOODWARD:
In what – generally what kind of roles in those
two departments?
MS HART:
Predominantly my role has been in the corporate
17
services areas, but in later years in large-scale IT
18
development.
19
MR WOODWARD:
20
MS HART:
21
In both Human Services and in Infrastructure I was
in charge of systems development.
22
MR WOODWARD:
23
MS HART:
24
MR WOODWARD:
25
27
MR WOODWARD:
30
And that’s – is that your only tertiary
qualification?
MS HART:
29
And what kind qualifications do you hold?
I have a bachelor of business.
26
28
That is, later years in - - -
Yes, it is.
Have you completed other courses relevant to
your role over the years?
MS HART:
I have completed many courses in relation to public
service, auditing, investigations - - 1662
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
2
MR WOODWARD:
while you were working as a public servant?
3
MS HART:
4
MR WOODWARD:
5
Yes, they were.
MS HART:
7
MR WOODWARD:
9
So you began at the Department in November 2000.
What was your initial role at the Department?
6
8
Were those primarily courses – short-courses run
I was general manager of shared services.
Could you explain to us what shared services, at
least at that time, covered?
MS HART:
It was a new division that looked at managing
10
transaction parts of the business.
11
accounting services, which was accounts payable and
12
receivable, cash management, payroll services, which
13
included things like superannuation and other deductions,
14
education maintenance allowance, procurement and
15
liability management.
16
MR WOODWARD:
So I had things like
So in terms of the then structure of the
17
Department, were you in a particular area at that time –
18
the shared services in a particular area I should say?
19
MS HART:
I reported to Karen Cleave, and she had
20
responsibility for, I think it was called corporate
21
resources, so that had – she had the finance department
22
reporting to her, my division, HR, information
23
technology, and I think that was it at the time.
24
25
MR WOODWARD:
department at that time?
26
MS HART:
27
MR WOODWARD:
28
MS HART:
29
30
Was there a discrete financial services
There was a discrete financial services division.
Division.
So they had – they ran the budget and .....
SRP,
whereas I had the accounting transactions.
MR WOODWARD:
Can you perhaps give us an example, when you say
1663
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
accounting transactions, how did that role differentiate
2
you from financial services division?
3
MS HART:
Accounting transactions were things like accounts
4
payable and receivable.
So we paid all the Department’s
5
transactions.
6
tasks;
7
financial background to do that.
8
didn’t have financial degrees, whereas in the finance
9
branch they did all the reporting and the budgeting, and
So they’re considered as more mundane
they didn’t require a sophisticated level of
So most of my staff
10
so there was a requirement that they should – most of the
11
staff there had, you know, financial experience or
12
degrees.
13
MR WOODWARD:
So in a sense, the role you’re describing there,
14
not for yourself, obviously, but for all of your staff
15
was more in the – more in the nature of a bookkeeping
16
type of role?
17
MS HART:
18
MR WOODWARD:
19
20
21
That’s correct.
role as general manager of shared services?
MS HART:
I think I had it for about three years, and then
Karen Cleave left the Department, and - - -
22
MR WOODWARD:
23
MS HART:
24
MR WOODWARD:
25
MS HART:
26
MR WOODWARD:
27
MS HART:
28
MR WOODWARD:
29
30
And how long were you in the – did you have that
And that was in about when?
I think it was 2003.
Three, yes.
Late 2003.
And then who replaced her in that role?
Jeff Rosewarne replaced her.
Had you previously had any dealings with Mr
Rosewarne?
MS HART:
I had only met him – I had only been in a meeting
1664
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
once that he chaired in relation to what was known as the
2
EC4P project, which was a whole-of-government project
3
looking at introducing electronic commerce for
4
procurement, which was an online procurement system.
5
6
7
MR WOODWARD:
And what role was Mr Rosewarne in at the time he
chaired that meeting?
MS HART:
He was working at Treasury and Finance, and my
8
recollection of why he was at the meeting was many of the
9
departments were reluctant to pursue the EC4P solution
10
because of the costs associated with it.
11
– that was a very expensive system that was being
12
offered, and he was there to, I guess, try to influence
13
the departments to come on board.
14
15
MR WOODWARD:
I mean, it was
Was that meeting at a time when you were already
at the Department of Education?
16
MS HART:
Yes, I was in the role of shared services.
17
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
So Mr Rosewarne began, you think, in
18
around mid-2003.
19
to the way in which the group was structured?
20
MS HART:
Yes.
And what – were there then changes made
Within a couple of months of him being there
21
he decided that he was going to change some of the
22
groupings, and as a consequence he created a new – he
23
abolished shared services and created a new division
24
called corporate services, and a lot more functions were
25
added into corporate services, and - - -
26
MR WOODWARD:
27
MS HART:
28
MR WOODWARD:
29
30
And what was your role in that new division?
I became the general manager of that new division.
All right.
And continuing to report to Mr
Rosewarne?
MS HART:
That’s correct.
1665
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
MR WOODWARD:
2
MS HART:
And what additional functions were added?
Accommodation, both regional and head office
3
accommodation, fleet management, environment and
4
sustainability, HRMS and other systems.
5
MR WOODWARD:
6
MS HART:
7
MR WOODWARD:
8
MS HART:
9
10
11
That’s correct.
scholarships as well.
MR WOODWARD:
13
MR WOODWARD:
That’s correct.
Did you also take on any other roles at about
the same time?
15
MS HART:
16
MR WOODWARD:
18
And those were all roles in addition to the ones
you had as general manager of shared services?
MS HART:
17
Yes.
Insurance, and I think scholarships – school
12
14
HRMS is the Human Resource Management System?
In – no, I don’t think so.
You became chair of the Accredited Purchasing
Unit at one stage.
MS HART:
No.
When – about when was that?
I actually became the chair in January 2001,
19
although in my statement I realise it said 2004 and I
20
have reported that to IBAC.
21
MR WOODWARD:
So you had already been – so really, you took up
22
the role of chair of the APU on pretty much on joining
23
the Department?
24
25
MS HART:
Within a couple of months, I think prior to me being
the chair Nino Napoli was the chair of the APU.
26
MR WOODWARD:
27
MS HART:
28
MR WOODWARD:
29
30
And who appointed you into that position?
Karen Cleave.
And how long did you hold the position of chair
of the APU?
MS HART:
From 2001 to I think about 2010 when my division was
1666
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
2
3
abolished and I moved into a new role.
MR WOODWARD:
position of chair for that whole period?
4
MS HART:
5
MR WOODWARD:
6
And did that – so you were actually in the
Yes, I was.
And did you have any direct involvement in the
APU after that time?
7
MS HART:
8
MR WOODWARD:
After 2010?
No.
Can I just ask you a little bit about the
9
process of approval by the Accredited Purchasing Unit.
10
The procurement process within the Department involves
11
different rules for different thresholds.
12
us through what those were?
13
MS HART:
Could you take
Well, I think the thresholds back then were under
14
$1000 you’re only required to get one quote.
15
was under five you needed three – I can’t remember
16
exactly.
17
public tender, unless you could demonstrate that there
18
was extenuating circumstances which meant you could then
19
apply for a certificate of exemption, which weren’t given
20
out lightly.
21
22
23
MR WOODWARD:
I think it
But anything over $100,000 you had to go to
What sort of factors might influence a decision
to grant a certificate of exemption?
MS HART:
The grounds would usually be there might be a
24
particular product that – a widget that the Department
25
needed to purchase, and only one company had that widget.
26
For example, if we – if a school was using Apple
27
computers, the Apple software can only be purchased by
28
Apple retailers.
29
30
MR WOODWARD:
You can’t go and buy it anywhere else.
And the process of achieving, or obtaining an
exemption certificate, what was that?
1667
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
MS HART:
Initially when I first took over the role it was I,
2
as the chair, had the ability to grant an exemption up to
3
a million dollars, and then it would have to go to the
4
secretary.
5
from people more senior than myself to approve
6
exemptions, I went to my other APU members and suggested
7
that we should all be involved in that decision rather
8
than just me.
9
exemption request came in, it would go to the APU as a
10
body, and then we would make a recommendation based on
11
our collective views.
12
MR WOODWARD:
But because I was feeling a lot of pressure
And so we changed the rule so that if an
I want to come back to the issue you’ve raised
13
about the pressure, but about when did that – was that
14
change implemented?
15
MS HART:
I think about 2005 maybe.
16
MR WOODWARD:
And just before we leave the process involved in
17
the procurement or the role of the APU, what – you
18
mentioned there was a threshold where only one quote was
19
required.
20
21
MS HART:
Yes.
And that changed over the years, did it?
I think around 2009, 2010 there was a review
of – by the VGPB and - - -
22
MR WOODWARD:
23
MS HART:
24
MR WOODWARD:
25
MS HART:
26
MR WOODWARD:
27
MS HART:
That’s the Victorian
- - -
Victorian Government Purchasing Board.
Okay.
And they lifted the thresholds.
Yes.
And what did they become then?
I – I can’t remember, I’m sorry.
But – but – my
28
recollection it was – it was linked to a percentage
29
increase.
30
MR WOODWARD:
Okay.
I see.
So – but in any event, there were
1668
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
essentially three thresholds.
2
quote was required, above a certain amount only - - -
3
MS HART:
4
MR WOODWARD:
5
Three - - -
MS HART:
7
MR WOODWARD:
8
MS HART:
And did that limit change, the $100,000 limit?
I think they all changed.
But I think it was by a
percentage.
MR WOODWARD:
11
MS HART:
13
And then over
A tender, yes.
10
12
Three quotes were required.
100,000, a public tender.
6
9
One up – where only one
Right.
But it was near the end of my time at the – in APU
role.
MR WOODWARD:
But your recollection though is that certainly
14
for most of the time that you were there the tender limit
15
was 100,000 plus.
16
MS HART:
Yes.
17
MR WOODWARD:
The actual rules that governed the operation of
18
procurement in the Department, where – where would staff
19
find those rules if they needed to know how to go through
20
the process?
21
MS HART:
When I first joined the Department, it was in a
22
folder, a paper folder.
23
engage a company to develop an online system so all staff
24
had access to a web-based system that had all the rules,
25
procedures.
26
frequently asked questions and tips on how you might go
27
through things.
28
people needed to undertake to – to follow procurement
29
properly.
30
MR WOODWARD:
And one of the things I did was
And it also had tips on, you know,
But it also had the processes that
And the APU itself, where did it become involved
1669
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
in that process?
2
APU – was it really only in the tender – in relation to
3
tenders?
4
5
6
MS HART:
At what points in the process did the
The tenders.
All – all tender recommendations above
a hundred thousand went to the APU.
MR WOODWARD:
And, just briefly, what was the process once a
7
tender recommendation – once a – for any procurement over
8
a hundred thousand, what broadly was the process?
9
MS HART:
Prior to the monthly meeting of the APU, papers
10
would go out to all members of the APU with the
11
recommendation and the – from each of the – whoever was
12
putting the recommendation forward.
13
the scoring of the tender and other relevant information.
14
MR WOODWARD:
15
MS HART:
16
17
18
And that would have
Who did the scoring at that stage?
It was done by the divisions who were actually
tendering the work out.
MR WOODWARD:
I see.
So the divisions themselves who wanted
the product - - -
19
MS HART:
Yes.
20
MR WOODWARD:
- - - were the ones who would be vetting the
21
tenderers and providing a summary of the scores they gave
22
to each of the tendering parties?
23
MS HART:
That’s right.
They would have a selection team, and
24
the selection team would all score.
25
write up their recommendation, and the APU would consider
26
that.
27
28
MR WOODWARD:
And then they would
And did the APU itself get involves in the
actual process of assessing tenders before that point?
29
MS HART:
No.
30
MR WOODWARD:
Okay.
And what did the APU then do with the
1670
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
2
recommendations that came up from the relevant division?
MS HART:
Well, as I said, prior to the meeting the members of
3
the APU would have the documentation.
4
would come to the meeting with a whole set of queries
5
about particular matters that are in the documentation.
6
And so we would then have a frank and fearless discussion
7
about those matters.
8
satisfactorily at that meeting.
9
actually refer the matter back to the person who put the
10
And often members
In some cases it could be resolved
In other cases we would
recommendation forward and ask them for clarification.
11
For example, the scoring might have – sometimes the
12
scoring looks very skewed and we would – we would say,
13
well, we couldn’t understand why this particular company
14
was scoring much lower than this particular company,
15
given they were – for example, it might have been one of
16
the big accounting firms and, you know, you would expect
17
– the quality of their staff would be maybe an 18 out of
18
20, and you might get one who had marked it down to 10.
19
And you would go, well, that doesn’t make sense.
20
would you – this is – we’re talking about a big
21
international company here so – so for things like that,
22
we would definitely refer it back to the area.
23
MR WOODWARD:
Why
And would there be a process of then interchange
24
between the area and the APU, or would they just come
25
back with answers to your questions?
26
MS HART:
Sometimes they would come to the APU.
Sometimes
27
they would write back to us or they would resubmit their
28
documentation.
29
30
MR WOODWARD:
And who at – over the – I don’t mean the names,
but where were the other members of the APU drawn from?
1671
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
MS HART:
Each – each office had a member representative on
2
the APU, and each member was required – initially –
3
initially there weren’t rules around the APU members when
4
I first took it over.
5
members had to be an executive officer because they were
6
often more junior staff who didn’t have the relevant
7
experience.
8
a member for 18 months, and then a new member from that
9
office would come.
And we changed it so that APU
And we also had that – each member would be
And the reason we introduced that
10
was, it was about developing the procurement knowledge
11
across the organisation and hopefully if the – all the
12
executives were made – to be involved in that, that would
13
lift the Department’s ability to do the right thing
14
around procurement.
15
MR WOODWARD:
Now, just returning to the issue of exemptions.
16
You said there was a period where you felt some pressure
17
in relation to the time when you were the person solely
18
responsible for granting exemptions.
19
that pressure come from?
20
MS HART:
21
MR WOODWARD:
22
MS HART:
What – where did
It came from Jeff Rosewarne.
And what sort of pressure was it?
He would tell me that other executives were
23
complaining that I was too strict, that I wasn’t letting
24
things through that should go through, that I was being
25
pedantic.
26
27
MR WOODWARD:
And so this was in respect of the feedback he
was getting from other executives.
28
MS HART:
Yes.
29
MR WOODWARD:
30
MS HART:
Which he was then passing on to you.
Yes.
1672
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
2
3
4
MR WOODWARD:
And what was he expecting that you would do?
What was he asking you to do in relation to that?
MS HART:
That I – that I should be more flexible and look at
ways that we could work around those sorts of issues.
5
MR WOODWARD:
6
MS HART:
7
MR WOODWARD:
And how long did that go on?
It went on for quite a while.
What – do you recall back then – from back then,
8
I appreciate this is a difficult question because it’s a
9
long time ago, any particular decisions you made that
10
people were unhappy about before you implemented the
11
change to the APU structure?
12
MS HART:
I can’t remember specifics.
I know that Darrell
13
Fraser complained a number of times to Jeff about me not
14
letting his stuff go through.
15
one where Jim Myles, who was – he was a peer of mine.
16
think he ran a division called Resources and
17
Infrastructure.
18
that was when the APU were looking at it in total and we
19
– we rejected it because we couldn’t believe that there
20
was only one company who could do this particular piece
21
of work.
22
need to sort this out.
23
line.”
24
MR WOODWARD:
25
MS HART:
26
MR WOODWARD:
27
MS HART:
I also remember there was
I
He wanted an exemption and – actually
So, you know, Jeff called me in and said, “You
You need to get it over the
And - - Sorry, that was Jeff Rosewarne called you?
Jeff Rosewarne.
Yes.
And I remember later Jim saying to me, “Look, I
28
don’t understand what the issue is.
29
I want so just – why can’t I have it?
30
money going to a tender?”
1673
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
This is the company
Why should I waste
G.I. HART
1
2
3
MR WOODWARD:
Do you recall what that particular procurement
was?
MS HART:
No, I can’t.
But I remember him saying that to me
4
because that – I was just furious that that was his
5
attitude.
6
know, “This is who I want.
7
and waste time and money?”
8
9
That someone as senior as him would think, you
MR WOODWARD:
Why should I go out to tender
And was your, based on what you’ve been saying,
impression that that was an approach that Mr Rosewarne
10
was advocating that you should adopt?
11
was more flexible and - - -
12
MS HART:
13
MR WOODWARD:
14
MS HART:
15
MR WOODWARD:
That is, one that
Yes, more flexible.
- - - amenable to those sorts of requests.
Yes.
But you said that that particular example that
16
you recall, having that conversation with Mr Myles, was
17
after you had already implemented the exemption rules
18
change - - -
19
MS HART:
20
MR WOODWARD:
21
Yes.
- - - which required approval from the entire
APU board.
22
MS HART:
Yes.
23
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
But even though you made that change, you
24
still were under pressure from time to – well,
25
frequently, to push things through.
26
MS HART:
Yes.
27
MR WOODWARD:
You mentioned a moment ago Mr Fraser putting –
28
you understanding that Mr Fraser was putting pressure on
29
– I want to return to that but if I can just ask a couple
30
of other sort of more high level questions.
1674
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
Your role in
G.I. HART
1
corporate services included responsibility for corporate
2
cards for - - -
3
MS HART:
4
MR WOODWARD:
5
Yes.
expenses and travel.
6
MS HART:
7
MR WOODWARD:
8
9
Yes.
So you had the oversight responsibility for all
of those Department procurement matters.
MS HART:
Yes.
10
MR WOODWARD:
11
MS HART:
12
MR WOODWARD:
13
- - - credit cards and petty cash and personal
While I was the general manager of - - Of corporate services.
- - - corporate services.
And when did you cease in that role as general
manager of corporate services?
14
MS HART:
I think it was 2010.
15
MR WOODWARD:
Right.
Did the Department at that time have a
16
gifts register or something along those lines, to your
17
knowledge?
18
MS HART:
19
MR WOODWARD:
20
Yes, we did.
responsibility or role in?
21
MS HART:
22
MR WOODWARD:
23
24
25
26
27
in?
MS HART:
Yes, I did.
And what was the – what form was the register
Was it a book or something online?
I can’t remember.
How did it work?
No, I’m sorry, I can’t – can’t
remember the form.
MR WOODWARD:
And did it sit within corporate services, the
management of the gifts register?
28
MS HART:
29
MR WOODWARD:
30
Was that something that you had any
Yes.
And were there written policies and rules around
how it was to be used?
1675
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
MS HART:
2
MR WOODWARD:
3
Yes, there was.
did change over time, did they?
4
MS HART:
5
MR WOODWARD:
6
7
And do you recall – did those – I presume those
Yes, they did.
And, broadly, what were the thrust of the rules
that governed receipt of gifts?
MS HART:
The rules were based on the whole of government
8
rules so that all gifts that were received were to be
9
recorded over a certain value.
10
I can’t remember the
value - - -
11
MR WOODWARD:
12
MS HART:
Was it hundreds or - - -
Yes, it was – yes, it was – it was a low figure.
I
13
mean – so it might have been sometimes people would go
14
overseas and they would be given gifts by dignitaries
15
from other countries and that would go onto the register.
16
MR WOODWARD:
And did it also cover things like invitations to
17
events, you know, being invited to a football match or
18
something of that kind?
19
MS HART:
Yes, it did.
20
MR WOODWARD:
And so those involved in those – being offered
21
those sorts of benefits were required to record those in
22
the gift register.
23
MS HART:
Yes.
24
MR WOODWARD:
And was there a point at which or was there
25
rules around any upper limits on what was – what you were
26
entitled to accept in the rules as you recall them?
27
MS HART:
No, I can’t – can’t recall an upper limit.
28
MR WOODWARD:
And the actual register itself, you said
29
earlier, you couldn’t recall what form it was.
30
likely that by the end of your time, that would have been
1676
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
Is it
G.I. HART
1
something online?
2
MS HART:
3
MR WOODWARD:
4
MS HART:
5
6
I think so, yes.
Yes.
I think it was paper initially and then it was
online.
MR WOODWARD:
And do you have a recollection as to how if
7
someone was to enter that sort of information in the
8
register, how they would – what, go onto a web – an
9
internal webpage and enter it?
10
MS HART:
11
MR WOODWARD:
12
MS HART:
13
MR WOODWARD:
14
MS HART:
15
Mmm.
Is that how it worked?
That’s how it was meant to work.
Yes.
But I can’t ever actually recall any gift being
registered on the register.
16
MR WOODWARD:
17
MS HART:
18
MR WOODWARD:
Ever?
Not to my recollection.
Was there a process for someone or someone
19
designated to actually check it from time to time to see
20
whether everything was in order?
21
MS HART:
The – the area that would have been responsible
22
wouldn’t have known who was getting what gifts from who.
23
I mean, that wasn’t – it wasn’t a transparent process.
24
MR WOODWARD:
Just returning now, if I can, to Mr Fraser.
25
About when did he begin in the Department that you can
26
recall?
27
MS HART:
I think it was about 2004/2005.
28
MR WOODWARD:
Did you, at that time, have some understanding
29
of where he had come from before taking up that role in
30
the Department?
1677
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
MS HART:
When it was announced that he had got the position,
2
an email went around to staff and it said that he came
3
from Glen Waverley Secondary College.
4
5
MR WOODWARD:
do you know?
6
MS HART:
7
MR WOODWARD:
8
9
10
11
12
He was the principal.
Okay.
So he came as principal of Glen Waverley
to the Department into what role?
MS HART:
Deputy Secretary, Office of Schools, I think it was
called then.
MR WOODWARD:
And where did he sit relative to Mr Rosewarne at
that time?
13
MS HART:
14
MR WOODWARD:
15
MS HART:
16
MR WOODWARD:
17
MS HART:
18
MR WOODWARD:
19
And what position had he held at Glen Waverley,
They were peers.
Reporting to whom?
Grant Hehir at the time.
Could you spell Mr Hehir’s name for us, please.
H-e-h-i-r.
And he was the Secretary of the Department at
that time?
20
MS HART:
Yes, he was.
21
MR WOODWARD:
So were there others at that time in the Deputy
22
Secretary roles apart from Mr Fraser and Mr Rosewarne,
23
that you can recall?
24
MS HART:
Dale Suget was the Deputy Secretary.
I think her –
25
her office was innovation and – I can’t remember the
26
title and – I’m just trying to think who else there was.
27
28
MR WOODWARD:
How many deputy secretaries were there at that
time?
29
MS HART:
One, two – I think there were three or four.
30
MR WOODWARD:
Do you know whether Mr Fraser and Mr Rosewarne
1678
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
knew one another before Mr Fraser came to central office?
2
MS HART:
No, I’m not aware of any connection.
3
MR WOODWARD:
What was your observation of the way in which
4
they worked together after Mr Fraser started in the
5
Department?
6
MS HART:
Initially, I didn’t notice any – any difference in
7
their relationship or – or any – anything odd about their
8
relationship but as time went by, it became apparent that
9
their relationship was very strong and my view was that
10
they were in fact running the Department.
11
Mr Hehir had left - - -
12
MR WOODWARD:
13
MS HART:
14
MR WOODWARD:
That was after
After Mr Hehir had left.
- - - the Department.
Yes.
Before Mr Hehir left, were there some – did he
15
have some concerns about personal expense claims of Mr
16
Fraser?
17
MS HART:
18
MR WOODWARD:
19
20
Yes, he did.
And how did those concerns – how did you get
involved in those concerns?
MS HART:
I got called to Mr Hehir’s office and he had some
21
personal expense claims in front of him and he asked me
22
to have a look at them, which I did.
23
24
25
MR WOODWARD:
What did he – did he tell you why he wanted you
to look at them?
MS HART:
He said he had concerns about what was being
26
presented to him so I had a look and I certainly had
27
concerns as well when I saw what was in them.
28
MR WOODWARD:
What do you recall gave rise to those concerns?
29
What was it about the claims that gave rise to those
30
concerns?
1679
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
MS HART:
Most of the claims were to do with lunches or
2
dinners in restaurants with – some are with staff.
3
restaurants were expensive, alcohol – a lot of alcohol
4
was on the bills.
5
6
7
MR WOODWARD:
Were there lunches or functions with anyone else
that you noticed?
MS HART:
I think after that meeting with Mr Hehir, he asked
8
me to actually go and look at all of Mr Fraser’s
9
expenses.
10
11
12
The
MR WOODWARD:
And what did you find when you looked at all of
Mr Fraser’s expenses?
MS HART:
Well, there were quite a number that were – that
13
were unusual.
14
Minister Kosky and her husband and two children to lunch.
15
16
MR WOODWARD:
And how was that apparent to you?
Was it the
expense claim form that provided that detail?
17
MS HART:
18
MR WOODWARD:
19
MS HART:
20
One in particular was Mr Fraser had taken
It was – yes, it did.
And why did that concern you?
Well, it’s not appropriate for a public servant to
take the minister and her family to lunch or dinner.
21
MR WOODWARD:
22
MS HART:
And do you recall about when this was?
It would have been in 2005, I think, because that’s
23
– I think that’s roughly when Grant asked me – or Mr
24
Hehir asked me to look at those things.
25
MR WOODWARD:
So having undertaken those inquiries and
26
investigations, what did you do with the conclusions or
27
the concerns you had?
28
29
30
MS HART:
Mr Hehir asked me to meet with Mr Fraser and ask him
to repay some of the moneys relating to various expenses.
MR WOODWARD:
Why did Mr Hehir – Mr Fraser was senior to you?
1680
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
MS HART:
Yes, he was.
2
MR WOODWARD:
3
MS HART:
Why did Mr Hehir ask you to speak to Mr Fraser?
I don’t know why he asked me.
I mean, I – I must
4
admit at the time I was a little bit shocked to be asked
5
to do that because it put me in a difficult position.
6
7
MR WOODWARD:
And did you nevertheless have that conversation
with Mr Fraser?
8
MS HART:
Yes, I did.
9
MR WOODWARD:
10
MS HART:
11
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
And how did he take it?
He wasn’t very happy.
About how many transactions do you think were
12
involved or ones that he – you’ve indicated he should
13
repay?
14
MS HART:
15
MR WOODWARD:
What sort of quantity are we talking about?
I think about 15 to 20.
And they were generally the transactions you’ve
16
described of lunches at reasonably expensive restaurants
17
and so on.
18
MS HART:
Yes.
19
MR WOODWARD:
20
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
He presumably explained the point of the lunch or
21
the purpose, did he, if he was unhappy that it shouldn’t
22
be paid for by the Department?
23
MS HART:
On the claim form – on the hospitality form – he
24
would write what the purpose of the – you know, like it
25
for a meeting and he would have to list who was attending
26
the lunch meeting.
27
MR O’BRYAN:
28
MS HART:
29
MR O’BRYAN:
30
He was a dep sec at that stage.
Yes.
So what did you understand was the purpose of the
lunch with the Minister and her family?
1681
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
MS HART:
That was one of the ones he had to pay back and he
2
didn’t explain why he had taken the Minister to lunch to
3
me.
4
MR O’BRYAN:
5
MR WOODWARD:
6
Yes.
or something of that kind?
7
MS HART:
8
MR WOODWARD:
9
10
11
And the other lunches were described as meetings
Yes.
And what was it about them that, at least from
your perspective, you felt it didn’t meet the relevant
requirements for him to be reimbursed?
MS HART:
The rules around hospitality was we couldn’t use
12
hospitality to take staff to lunch or dinner.
13
if we had a visitor from overseas and, you know,
14
presenting at the Department or whatever, a dep sec might
15
take that visitor to lunch and it would be appropriate
16
that one other staff member attend, but when it would be
17
four or five, that was just not appropriate and was
18
certainly outside the guidelines.
19
MR WOODWARD:
However,
Now, by this time, you had also at least
20
indirectly been dealing with Mr Fraser in relation to his
21
attempts to get things through the APU - - -
22
MS HART:
Yes.
23
MR WOODWARD:
- - - and those dealings, were they directly
24
with Mr Fraser, or were they through other people like Mr
25
Rosewarne or a combination?
26
MS HART:
27
MR WOODWARD:
28
No.
It was through Mr Rosewarne.
And so that made your meeting with him in
relation to this issue probably more difficult?
29
MS HART:
Yes.
30
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
1682
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
MS HART:
Yes, it did.
2
MR WOODWARD:
And what was the outcome, at least from the
3
secretary’s point of view – Mr Hehir’s point of view –
4
what happened following that meeting?
5
6
MS HART:
He asked me to vet all of Mr Fraser’s personal
expenses going forward.
7
MR WOODWARD:
8
MS HART:
9
MR WOODWARD:
Until Mr Hehir left.
10
MS HART:
11
MR WOODWARD:
12
And for how long did you do that?
Which was about when?
I think about 2005.
Okay.
And he was replaced by whom?
Was it Mr
Dawkins?
13
MS HART:
Yes, it was.
14
MR WOODWARD:
Sorry.
Peter Dawkins.
That’s all right.
Sorry.
You said, I think, a moment
15
ago that – well – and you’ve identified in particular the
16
process of you checking Mr Fraser’s expense claims
17
changed after Mr Hehir left.
18
observe over time under Mr Dawkins that were different
19
from things under Mr Hehir?
20
MS HART:
What other changes did you
Mr Fraser had a staff member named Steve Sullivan
21
who was, I think, about a VPS4 which is, you know, a
22
relatively junior public servant, who had a credit card
23
and he started to submit personal expense claims where he
24
took Mr Fraser and others to lunch.
25
MR WOODWARD:
And what were the – what was the significance of
26
those being on Mr Sullivan’s credit card instead of Mr
27
Fraser?
28
29
30
MS HART:
Well, it was my view that Mr Fraser was hiding his
expenditure by using Mr Sullivan’s credit card.
MR WOODWARD:
Who approved Mr Sullivan’s personal expenses?
1683
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
MS HART:
Mr Fraser.
2
MR WOODWARD:
So the process that seems to have occurred at
3
about the time Mr Hehir left and Mr Dawkins came on the
4
scene was one where, at least so far as Mr Fraser was
5
concerned, he was arranging for a junior staff member to
6
pay for lunches and the like which he would then approve.
7
MS HART:
8
MR WOODWARD:
9
10
That’s correct.
And how did that information come to your
attention?
MS HART:
One of my staff, Mr Craig Webster, who was the
11
manager of accounting services, one of his staff brought
12
it to his attention that it seemed odd and Mr Webster
13
came to me with that information.
14
MR WOODWARD:
15
MS HART:
16
17
And what seemed odd?
That Mr Sullivan was taking Mr Fraser and others to
lunches where alcohol was consumed.
MR WOODWARD:
And that was simply – just picking that up, it
18
wasn’t part of an approval process that that was picked
19
up, it was just observed through the documents that were
20
being submitted?
21
MS HART:
That’s – yes.
The credit – each month, the officers
22
who had a credit card had to reconcile them and the
23
reconciliation came to us to sign off.
24
25
MR WOODWARD:
And what – now, this was at a time Mr Hehir had
left – what happened - - -
26
MS HART:
I think so.
27
MR WOODWARD:
- - - as a result of those – of you discovering
28
that Mr Sullivan was starting to pay for lunches attended
29
by Mr Fraser?
30
MS HART:
At that particular time, it was difficult to raise
1684
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
that matter within the organisation.
2
MR WOODWARD:
3
MS HART:
4
5
6
7
Why?
Because of the relationship that had been
established between Mr Rosewarne and Mr Fraser.
MR WOODWARD:
What about the secretary, what was his – where
was he in all of these matters by this time?
MS HART:
The secretary wasn’t what you call a traditional
8
bureaucrat;
he hadn’t come through the bureaucracy and
9
his interest appeared to be around the education agenda.
10
He had also made Jeff – sorry, Mr Rosewarne – he gave him
11
the title of chief operating officer which implied that
12
Jeff was responsible for the operational arm of the
13
business.
14
Dawkins would have understood the implications.
15
MR WOODWARD:
And you wouldn’t – I don’t believe that Mr
So your impression, at least after Mr Dawkins
16
took over, was that he was focused more on the broader
17
education - - -
18
MS HART:
Agenda.
19
MR WOODWARD:
- - - imperative agenda in Victoria, whereas –
20
and less interested or focused on structures and policies
21
in bureaucracy within the Department?
22
MS HART:
That’s correct.
23
MR WOODWARD:
And he essentially appointed Mr Rosewarne to
24
become responsible for that part of the operation of the
25
Department;
26
27
28
MS HART:
was that how you understood it?
That was my assumption given that he – Jeff was made
the chief operating officer.
MR WOODWARD:
And it was that and his relationship with Mr
29
Fraser – that is, Mr Rosewarne’s relationship with Mr
30
Fraser by this time that impeded – or at least put you in
1685
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
a position where you were concerned about the
2
consequences of raising these sorts of issues at that
3
time?
4
MS HART:
5
MR WOODWARD:
6
about?
7
MS HART:
Yes.
What sort of consequences were you concerned
I suppose I was concerned that I would be put under
8
pressure from Jeff – by Mr Rosewarne, sorry, that he
9
would make my life difficult, because he had that ability
10
11
to do that.
MR WOODWARD:
Over time then from around 2005 for the
12
following few years, what other things did you observe
13
about the way in which these issues were being managed in
14
the Department;
15
particular?
16
MS HART:
these issues of personal expenses in
A pattern emerged for both Mr Rosewarne and Mr
17
Fraser where they actually stopped submitting receipts
18
with their personal expense claim forms and credit cards.
19
They would submit statutory declarations.
20
example, if Mr Fraser hosted a function – a lunch or a
21
dinner – instead of producing the receipt, he would do a
22
statutory declaration saying that he had lost the
23
receipt, that he had hosted a function at a particular
24
venue, and the cost was this amount of money and these
25
were the people who attended.
26
MR WOODWARD:
So, for
So the idea of a statutory declaration was to
27
generally to be used only when, for some reason, the
28
receipts had been lost and you were swearing or declaring
29
that these functions had occurred?
30
MS HART:
That’s correct.
1686
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
2
MR WOODWARD:
used routinely by Mr Fraser and Mr Rosewarne?
3
MS HART:
4
MR WOODWARD:
5
MR O’BRYAN:
6
Yes, they were.
Yes.
You talk about lunches – the initial lunches paid
for by the other gentleman;
7
MR WOODWARD:
8
MR O’BRYAN:
9
But was your observation that they were being
Mr Sullivan.
Mr Sullivan and then these types of functions
where the stat decs are signed.
10
these?
11
recollection of that?
12
what’s his name?
MS HART:
What’s the frequency of
What are we – what was your – what’s your
The statutory declarations became more frequent;
in
13
fact, it was substantial.
14
lunches and dinners within Australia, they were also used
15
when Mr Fraser and Mr Rosewarne travelled overseas.
16
17
18
19
MR O’BRYAN:
But are we talking about one a month, or one a
week, or what’s the rough frequency that you recall?
MR WOODWARD:
Of the lunches, I think, the Commissioner is
asking.
20
MS HART:
21
MR O’BRYAN:
22
Not only were they used for
Sorry, the lunches.
Probably once a fortnight.
And that includes going back to the ones paid for
by the other gentleman?
23
MS HART:
24
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
Mr Sullivan.
Yes.
And you said that you stopped
25
vetting Mr Fraser’s expenses when Mr Hehir ceased to be
26
secretary.
27
MS HART:
No.
Were you told to stop that by someone?
I mean – sorry, we still did VET them, but we
28
didn’t have anywhere to take them to.
29
didn’t have an avenue to - - -
30
MR O’BRYAN:
We – you know, I
So you tracked them, but you didn’t do anything
1687
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
about them?
2
MS HART:
3
MR O’BRYAN:
4
That’s correct.
Yes.
Is that – and that’s because of the change
of secretary I take it?
5
MS HART:
Yes.
6
MR O’BRYAN:
7
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
Yes.
You mentioned overseas trips and the use of
8
statutory declarations.
9
instances of that occurring?
10
MS HART:
12
MR WOODWARD:
13
MS HART:
15
16
Involving, say, Mr
Rosewarne?
11
14
Can you recall any particular
Yes, when he went to China.
About when was this?
I’m sorry, I can’t remember the exact period, but
- - MR WOODWARD:
Sometime in this period between 2005 and 2009-
10?
17
MS HART:
And 2010, yes.
18
MR WOODWARD:
19
MS HART:
Yes.
And what do you recall about that?
The reason I remember that specifically is that it
20
was my understanding that Mr Rosewarne’s wife accompanied
21
him on that trip.
22
like that there was a stat dec for each of the diners,
23
and it would say that there was so many people in
24
attendance, but there was no mention of his wife, or
25
anything like that.
26
eight people in attendance at this dinner, and it was for
27
such and such an amount.
28
MR WOODWARD:
And when there were dinners and things
So it just would say there were
And I lost the receipt.
And you were therefore unable to tell from the
29
documentation you provided as to whether or not that
30
included paying for Mr Rosewarne’s wife?
1688
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
MS HART:
That’s correct.
In fact, you couldn’t tell who was
included in the stat dec.
MR WOODWARD:
And that was – there were a number of stat decs,
were there, for that trip as you recall?
MS HART:
I think most of Mr Rosewarne’s claims for that trip
were with a stat dec.
MR WOODWARD:
Just generally, with – what is the normal
8
practice where an executive is going on a trip that’s for
9
Department business?
10
MS HART:
How is that generally arranged?
The executive officer would have to seek permission
11
from the secretary, so they would put a submission
12
together outlining the cost of the trip, the purpose of
13
the trip, where they would be staying and who would be –
14
who else might be in attendance.
15
costs, because they would get quotes from – through my
16
staff for airfares and accommodation, or sometimes using
17
their own personal assistants.
18
that to us after it had been approved by the secretary,
19
and we would arrange for an advance based on how many
20
days travel they would be away.
21
MR WOODWARD:
22
MS HART:
And it would have the
They would then submit
There was a - - -
A set amount.
- - - a set amount set by government, and so we
23
would in some cases give advances.
24
want an advance.
25
just pay it all and then just do my reconciliation at the
26
end and be reimbursed then.”
27
28
29
30
MR WOODWARD:
Some people didn’t
They would say “Look, I would rather
What about the airfares and accommodation?
How
were they generally paid for?
MS HART:
They were paid in advance by the Department.
– the government has a panel of travel providers.
1689
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
So we
I
G.I. HART
1
think there’s just one company now, though, or I think it
2
was FCM, or something like that at one point, and we
3
would organise that.
4
MR WOODWARD:
And for other expenses there was a possibility
5
of getting an advance which was a fixed daily amount set
6
by government?
7
MS HART:
8
MR WOODWARD:
9
10
That’s correct.
And then that would be reconciled against
expense claims when the ..... came back, or alternatively
they could pay them themselves and then get reimbursed?
11
MS HART:
That’s correct.
12
MR WOODWARD:
And as part of that process the standard
13
requirement was they would produce receipts for all of
14
those expenses, except in the exceptional cases where
15
they had lost a receipt when they could use a stat dec?
16
MS HART:
That’s correct.
Or where they might be in a
17
situation where they couldn’t get a receipt.
18
maybe a taxi back then couldn’t provide a receipt.
19
MR WOODWARD:
You know,
Apart from the examples you have given of Mr
20
Fraser and Mr Rosewarne, on your experience, how often
21
were people – would a staff member use a stat dec?
22
it the exception rather than the rule?
23
MS HART:
24
MR WOODWARD:
25
MR O’BRYAN:
26
MS HART:
27
MR O’BRYAN:
28
MS HART:
Was
It was the exception rather than the rule.
Yes.
And is that still your experience?
I’m sorry?
Is that still your experience?
I no longer work in government, but certainly up
29
until the time I left that was – a stat dec was a rarity
30
rather than - - 1690
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
MR O’BRYAN:
2
MS HART:
3
MR O’BRYAN:
An exception.
Yes.
And I’m gathering there may not have been rules
4
around the stat decs as to how precisely you need to
5
describe the expenses?
6
MS HART:
There had to be sufficient information that the
7
person who was doing the reimbursements would be able to
8
say there was a date, the name of the venue, the number
9
of people who have attended and why they didn’t have a
10
receipt.
11
MR O’BRYAN:
12
MS HART:
13
MR WOODWARD:
14
Yes.
Yes.
And they actually had to swear in that stat dec
that they had lost the receipt?
15
MS HART:
That’s correct.
16
MR WOODWARD:
In the case of Mr Fraser and Mr Rosewarne, what
17
proportion of their claims in your experience of this
18
time were by statutory declaration?
19
MS HART:
About 95 per cent.
20
MR WOODWARD:
Was it – do you know – to your knowledge, was it
21
ever raised with them that this – they were habitually
22
using stat decs and not producing receipts?
23
MS HART:
I raised it with Jeff on one occasion – sorry, Mr
24
Rosewarne.
25
the most senior people in the organisation he really
26
needed to set the example of, you know, being – you know,
27
providing receipts as required.
28
MR WOODWARD:
29
MS HART:
30
MR WOODWARD:
I said to him that given that he was one of
And what was his response to that?
I think he just shrugged his shoulders.
What – if we’re sort of talking about – perhaps
1691
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
I should ask this:
2
services in 2010, but continued on in other roles, which
3
we will come to.
4
corporate services area, have – or were given information
5
concerning this practice of using stat decs, particularly
6
by Mr Rosewarne and Mr Fraser?
7
MS HART:
Yes.
you finished in the role in corporate
Did you, even after you left the
My ex-accounting manager, because I was no
8
longer his manager, Craig Webster would tell me that
9
things were still happening.
10
MR WOODWARD:
11
MS HART:
And what was your advice to him about that?
I said to him that really there’s nothing you can
12
do, given where Jeff – Mr Rosewarne and Mr Fraser were in
13
the organisation.
14
MR WOODWARD:
By this time, by the late 2000s, how would you
15
describe the culture in relation to compliance with these
16
kinds of procedures within the Department?
17
respect of people like Mr Fraser and Mr Rosewarne?
18
19
20
MS HART:
At least in
I think compliance was not occurring very often at
all, in a whole range of areas.
MR WOODWARD:
And did you say that went beyond – at least from
21
a cultural perspective went beyond just Mr Fraser and Mr
22
Rosewarne?
23
MS HART:
Yes, I believe there were many things that were
24
happening across the organisation that could bring the
25
Department into disrepute.
26
MR WOODWARD:
Well, would it be overstating it to say that at
27
least your perception was that by the late 2000s there
28
was really a culture of non-compliance within the
29
Department?
30
MS HART:
No, I think there were people in the Department who
1692
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
were honest, hard-working public servants.
2
there were people in senior roles across the organisation
3
who flaunted the rules.
4
MR O’BRYAN:
However,
Well, you have talked about tenders and perhaps
5
being more flexible in relation to approving amounts
6
above the minimum tender requirement amount.
7
talked about expense claims.
8
you’re meaning to describe in this context?
9
other areas?
10
MS HART:
There’s other areas.
You have
Are they the two areas
Or are there
For example, the regions were
11
– it came to my knowledge, as the officer responsible for
12
fleet for the organisation that some regions were leasing
13
cars that weren’t approved by head office, because we had
14
responsibility for fleet.
15
how they were paying for those lease cars, we couldn’t
16
find any evidence in our accounting systems that the
17
money...
18
MS HART:
And when we tried to work out
- - - and when we were trying to work out how they
19
were paying for those lease cars, we couldn’t find any
20
evidence in our accounting systems that the money was
21
coming from the Department’s funds.
22
MR WOODWARD:
And so did you try and follow that through to
23
find out where that money was coming from for those fleet
24
cars?
25
MS HART:
Yes, we – you know, we checked the accounting
26
systems and it – an officer in one of the regions told us
27
that they were being paid for through a school.
28
MR O’BRYAN:
29
MS HART:
30
Through a banker school?
Well, at that time I didn’t really know what a
banker school is but - - 1693
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
MR O’BRYAN:
2
MS HART:
3
MR WOODWARD:
4
5
6
7
8
9
You didn’t – you weren’t familiar with that term.
Yes.
What was this – which region was this in
particular where the fleet problem was identified?
MS HART:
There were two regions.
There was Bendigo and
Gippsland.
MR WOODWARD:
And how many cars are we talking about being
involved in this arrangement?
MS HART:
I think about five or six cars in both regions.
10
MR WOODWARD:
11
MR O’BRYAN:
In each – in each region.
And what - - -
Did that come as a surprise to you that a school
12
might be paying for that sort of thing?
13
aware of schools paying for things not for the school?
14
15
MS HART:
Or were you
That was the first time I think that I became aware
that – that money was being moved into schools.
16
MR O’BRYAN:
Were you alarmed at all by that?
17
MS HART:
18
MR O’BRYAN:
19
MR WOODWARD:
Yes, I was.
Yes.
Just as the issue of the cars is being raised,
20
do you recall as part of your inquiries finding out what
21
the cars – how the cars were being used in the regions
22
that were off the books, as it were?
23
MS HART:
Yes, I did.
The – the regions – each region had a
24
fleet of cars based on – there was a formula.
25
unfortunately, the regions had decided that some of the
26
officers in the regions – and I think they were called
27
senior education officers back then – were actually given
28
a car and the keys would be in their pocket, and they
29
would use that car solely for their purpose, not for the
30
benefit of the whole regional office.
1694
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
And,
And so, therefore,
G.I. HART
1
cars weren’t available for other members of the regional
2
staff who needed to go and do business in other – out of
3
the office.
4
supplementing that pool to enable business to be run from
5
the office.
6
MR WOODWARD:
And so what I think they were doing was
I see.
Do you know what happened as a result of
7
the investigations that you undertook in relation to that
8
particular issue?
9
MS HART:
I raised the matter with Mr Rosewarne and he – I
10
don’t know what he did about it, but he came back to me
11
and said, “We will just leave that there.”
12
MR WOODWARD:
We might come back a bit later to some more
13
examples of your understanding of banker schools, Ms
14
Hart.
Are you doing okay?
15
MS HART:
Yes.
16
MR WOODWARD:
17
MS HART:
18
MR WOODWARD:
Do you need a break?
No, no, I’m fine.
Thank you.
And just return briefly, if we could, to – back
19
to sort of the period 2005 to 2006.
20
that period of a program that Mr Fraser was seeking to
21
implement at the Department.
22
that time?
23
MS HART:
24
MR WOODWARD:
25
MS HART:
26
MR WOODWARD:
You became aware in
What was that called at
I think it was called Students at the Centre.
So it was “student” and then - - -
A little “at” sign.
“at” sign, and then “@centre proposal”.
And
27
what do you recall of how that – where that was generated
28
or how it was generated?
29
30
MS HART:
I can’t – I came to learn that it was a program that
had been running at Glen Waverley Secondary College as a
1695
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
stand-alone type system, and that Mr Fraser wanted to
2
expand that to go right across all of the schools within
3
Victoria.
4
MR WOODWARD:
So Mr Fraser had been at Glen Waverley.
He was
5
now within the Department and supporting this proposal
6
that was being, at that stage at least, run out of – out
7
of Glen Waverley Secondary College only.
8
the principal at Glen Waverley, do you recall?
9
10
11
12
MS HART:
Who was then
No, I don’t know who the principal was.
MR WOODWARD:
Were there people at the – at Glen Waverley who
you understood were involved in the student@centre?
MS HART:
At that time, I don’t know if they were at Glen
13
Waverley or they would come into town, but they had
14
certainly been at Glen Waverley and that was Ben Cushing
15
- - -
16
MR WOODWARD:
17
MS HART:
18
MR WOODWARD:
19
MS HART:
Ben Cushing, that’s C-u-s-h-i-n-g?
That’s correct.
Dianne Peck.
P-e-c-k?
That’s correct.
They had both worked at Glen
20
Waverley, and then they were in the Department but I
21
can’t say exactly whether – at which point they came into
22
the Department.
23
MR WOODWARD:
How was it – or what were the circumstances in
24
which you first became aware of the student@centre
25
proposal?
26
MS HART:
Mr Rosewarne called me into his office because he
27
wanted to talk about this project, and he said that Mr
28
Hehir wanted me to be satisfied that what was being
29
proposed was appropriate in the context of government
30
policy.
So Jeff went through the proposal with me and I
1696
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
immediately had significant concerns about the project,
2
the reason being that Oracle, which is a large IT
3
international company, was offering a million dollars in
4
kind to the Department to assist with developing a
5
prototype for this students at the centre.
6
MR WOODWARD:
7
MS HART:
And why did that concern you?
In the 32 years I’ve been in government, I had never
8
known a company to offer a million dollars in kind to
9
facilitate a project.
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
MR WOODWARD:
And when you say “in kind” what did you
understand the offer to involve Oracle doing?
MS HART:
Oracle would provide labour, or IT staff to develop
this prototype.
MR WOODWARD:
And what particular aspect of its involvement
caused you concern?
MS HART:
My concern was, going forward, given that Jeff had
17
told – sorry, Mr Rosewarne had told me that the proposal
18
was to expand it across all of the government schools, my
19
concern was in any future tender process there were
20
possibilities of conflicts, particularly if Oracle were
21
allowed to bid for those tenders.
22
MR WOODWARD:
23
MS HART:
And what – why was that a concern for you?
It – because I think if Oracle was allowed to bid
24
for that work, it would be a clear disadvantage to other
25
tenderers who might be interested in being awarded that
26
work.
27
28
29
30
MR WOODWARD:
Because they had already been involved
considerably in the prototype?
MS HART:
Well, to develop a prototype to the standard they
were talking about would have had significantly
1697
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
disadvantaged any other tenderer.
2
MR WOODWARD:
3
MS HART:
4
MR WOODWARD:
5
MS HART:
6
MR WOODWARD:
7
MS HART:
And did you express that view to Mr Rosewarne?
Yes, I did.
And what was his response to that?
He asked me to go away and think about that.
What did you understand it to mean by that?
Well, to look at whether there were other ways
8
around those sorts of things.
9
I came back and told him I still had that view, that if –
10
if Oracle were allowed to provide this million dollars in
11
kind and undertake the work of the prototype that they –
12
they would have to be disallowed from – from tendering
13
for – the expansion of the project.
14
MR WOODWARD:
15
MS HART:
16
MR WOODWARD:
17
18
And my – I went away, and
And, again, what – how did he respond to that?
He wasn’t very happy.
What was your role in relation to that
particular project after that time?
MS HART:
You could say I was excluded from that point so –
19
and there were times where I actually excluded myself.
20
So when the submission – or the recommendation went to
21
the APU, I actually didn’t attend that meeting because I
22
knew that I didn’t want to be involved in anything that
23
was not transparent.
24
25
MR WOODWARD:
on.
And that proposal then was re-badged a bit later
What was it then called?
26
MS HART:
It was called Ultranet.
27
MR WOODWARD:
The proposal is something we will be dealing
28
with a little later, Ms Hart, but there was one aspect of
29
it in particular that I wanted to ask you about.
30
the course of the implementation of the Ultranet process,
1698
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
During
G.I. HART
1
we understand that there was a trip organised to the UK
2
by members of staff.
3
of?
4
MS HART:
5
MR WOODWARD:
6
MS HART:
Is that something you became aware
Yes, I did.
Can you tell us about how that came up?
My – the staff member who was responsible for travel
7
in my division, Ms Christina Mezaratis, came to me with a
8
travel – with some travel documents and told me that the
9
documents had gone to the secretary and – Mr Dawkins, who
10
had signed them.
11
the staff had been upgraded from economy to business
12
class.
13
travel economy, executive officers could travel business
14
class.
15
officers in that travel arrangement.
16
But she had major concerns because all
Under the rules at the time, VPS staff were to
It’s my recollection that there were no executive
And on the actual documentation was a little yellow
17
sticky note with a note saying – and the note said words
18
to the effect of, “I recommend that these officers be
19
upgraded to business class”, and it was signed by Jeff.
20
Sorry, by Mr Rosewarne.
21
sorry, Mr Rosewarne – about this.
22
his executive assistant was and I raised the matter with
23
– I said I needed to see Jeff because, you know, he had
24
done this and it was outside the rules.
25
MR WOODWARD:
26
MS HART:
27
MR WOODWARD:
28
MS HART:
So I went down to see Jeff –
He wasn’t there, but
How many staff were involved?
I think there was about five.
Five.
And she said to leave it with her and she would get
29
back to me.
When she got back to me, she basically said
30
that Mr Rosewarne had told her he was the dep sec and he
1699
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
could do what he liked, so I was pretty much shut down.
2
So I then said to Ms Mezaratis to not remove that sticky
3
note from that documentation so that when she filed it,
4
it was always there so that she could never be brought
5
into – that she had failed in her role of checking
6
things.
7
8
9
MR WOODWARD:
What sort of approval would normally have been
required for that kind of upgrade, as you understood it?
MS HART:
My understanding is that only the Premier can
10
approve that and there will – there has been
11
circumstances where that has happened, eg, a Minister may
12
be travelling overseas and one of her staff who she needs
13
– who he or she needs to communicate with during that
14
trip would be allowed to – would be approved to move to
15
business class.
16
17
MR WOODWARD:
And you say that would normally be something
that would be approved by the Premier only - - -
18
MS HART:
That’s my recollection.
19
MR WOODWARD:
- - - because of the circumstances you’ve
20
described and they would be exceptional, in your
21
experience?
22
MS HART:
Yes, yes.
23
MR WOODWARD:
Did you have any further direct dealings or,
24
indeed, indirect dealings with Mr Rosewarne on that
25
topic, or did you feel that you had taken it as far as
26
you could?
27
MS HART:
I believed that I had taken it as far as I could.
28
MR WOODWARD:
Had it become, at least from your perspective,
29
more and more difficult to deal with Mr Rosewarne over
30
this period?
1700
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
MS HART:
Yes, it had.
2
MR WOODWARD:
3
MS HART:
In what way?
Mr Rosewarne, as time went on, became – what’s the
4
word – more powerful in the sense that he – it became
5
more evident that he could do whatever he really wanted
6
to.
7
8
9
MR WOODWARD:
And in your personal dealings – or your dealings
directly with him, did his demeanour change with you?
MS HART:
Yes.
Sometimes if he wasn’t happy with something I
10
had done – I used to meet with him regularly, and he
11
would have one of his staff members in those meetings,
12
and then at the end of the meeting he would ask her to
13
leave, and then he would close the door and then he would
14
give me a bit of a going over, I suppose you would call
15
it.
16
17
18
19
20
21
MR WOODWARD:
way?
MS HART:
Yes.
MR WOODWARD:
you know, “How dare
And that was something that happened more often
as time passed?
MS HART:
23
MR WOODWARD:
25
And quite threatening;
you question my judgment”, those sorts of things.
22
24
In what – in a raised voice, or in what sort of
Yes.
And what did you do, or what did you feel you
could do in response to that kind of treatment?
MS HART:
There really wasn’t anything you could do.
So, you
26
know, I used to just, I suppose, grin and bear it, but I
27
did start looking for other jobs in other departments.
28
MR WOODWARD:
29
MS HART:
30
MR WOODWARD:
Outside Department of Education?
Yes.
Yes.
About when were you starting to look for
1701
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
other positions?
2
MS HART:
3
MR WOODWARD:
4
5
Around about, I think, 2007.
And when did you eventually move out of the role
you were in in corporate services?
MS HART:
At the end of 2009, Jeff – sorry, Mr Rosewarne had
6
decided that he had had enough of me in charge of the
7
rules and decided to restructure.
8
MR WOODWARD:
9
MS HART:
What did he do?
He dissolved my division and spread it over other
10
parts of his office, and he created a new division called
11
projects division which he made me general manager of.
12
And the view across the organisation was that I had been
13
put in a corner and the title Projects was sort of
14
significant in terms of when people are naughty, you get
15
put into a corner and you get called Projects Division.
16
Yes.
17
MR WOODWARD:
Before that change occurred, you went on a short
18
secondment to the Bushfire Royal Commission;
19
correct?
20
MS HART:
That’s correct.
21
MR WOODWARD:
22
MS HART:
23
MR WOODWARD:
is that
That was in February 2009.
For a few months?
Until the end of May.
Yes.
That wasn’t the same – because Mr
24
Rosewarne also had a connection to the bushfires at that
25
time, didn’t he?
26
MS HART:
No.
He left about two days before I did.
He went
27
to head up the Bushfire Reconstruction Commission, I
28
think it was called, and I - - -
29
30
MR WOODWARD:
So you had no dealings with each other in those
respective roles?
1702
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
MS HART:
No.
2
MR WOODWARD:
So it was after you had come back from that
3
secondment that the restructure was put in place by Mr
4
Rosewarne to which you referred earlier?
5
MS HART:
He came back a couple of months after me and during
6
that – during late 2008 and 2009, there were a number of
7
things happening that I was unhappy about, and raised
8
those matters with him and that’s probably when he
9
decided that it was time to move me on, because I was now
10
becoming a real problem for him.
11
MR WOODWARD:
12
MS HART:
And what matters were they?
There were two matters that come to mind.
One was a
13
particular staff member of mine who had only been there
14
12 months in government, his wife was pregnant, and she
15
was then diagnosed with cancer and she subsequently died,
16
but his – this chap’s manager wanted me to let him go on
17
leave and continue paying him even though he wasn’t
18
entitled to.
19
totally inappropriate.
20
happening to this man, but it’s inappropriate for us to
21
continue paying someone who is not entitled to their
22
leave.”
23
So I said, “No, I can’t do that.
That’s
We can’t – it’s terrible what’s
So she went to Mr Rosewarne over my head, and I got
24
pulled in and Mr Rosewarne told me I was being unfair,
25
and unreasonable and words to that effect, and I told him
26
my view on it and said I wasn’t prepared to pay this
27
person.
28
payroll and that person went on leave – on substantial
29
leave.
30
member who actually had cancer, and who was going for
He subsequently moved that person onto his
The difficulty at the time was I had a staff
1703
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
treatment, and would return to work after treatment on a
2
tram and his manager asked me if we could provide a taxi.
3
So I went to Mr Rosewarne and Mr Bugden and asked them
4
whether that would be appropriate and I was told no, that
5
we can’t pay for someone to come back from chemotherapy –
6
pay for their taxi fare, but we could pay for someone to
7
be off all that time.
8
9
10
11
MR WOODWARD:
Was that your impression that that was some sort
of payback for your decision in relation to the leave, or
was it before then?
MS HART:
No.
It was after that, so I guess it was sort of a
12
bit of a payback.
13
while I was at the Commission, Ms Janet Thompson, who was
14
acting in my position, contacted me to tell me that the
15
Department was going to enter – or had entered into an
16
arrangement with the Western Bulldogs to lease office
17
accommodation at their new redeveloped precinct.
18
explained to Janet – Ms Thompson – that we couldn’t do
19
that, because we were committed to the whole of
20
government – I’m trying to think what it’s called –
21
central activities district project, which was the
22
government had identified a number of areas within
23
Victoria that needed to be redeveloped to improve
24
employment and outcomes in those areas and we had
25
committed to three of those.
26
And then there was another incident;
I
One was Dandenong, one was at Footscray and one was
27
at Broadmeadows.
And the Footscray one was – we were
28
going to move our staff who are currently located at
29
Parkville and Footscray into this new accommodation.
30
we had actually signed up for that, and the government
1704
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
So
G.I. HART
1
had actually provided funding for the fit-out for those
2
projects.
3
proceeded, so the Department had started to fit-out
4
accommodation at the Western Bulldogs.
5
So when I returned, that work had already
And it was – I think it was about half a million
6
dollars’ worth of works, and I mean, I was – I just
7
couldn’t believe that we were spending that money given
8
we were going to be moving in about two years’ time into
9
this brand new building that government was funding.
10
the person who was managing that project’s name was
11
Carmel Arthur, and she was leaving to go to – in about
12
September, October she was leaving to go to the new
13
government – the government’s new shared services.
14
to that happening I asked her where was the money coming
15
from to do this half a million dollar fit-out?
16
told me that Jeff was providing – sorry, Mr Rosewarne was
17
providing it.
18
haven’t got it – the money in my budget to do that.”
19
So
Prior
And she
And I said “Well, that’s good because I
And then prior to her leaving she tried to hand the
20
project over to me, and I refused to take it and told her
21
I wasn’t having anything to do with it.
22
told Mr Rosewarne about that.
23
project with her to shared services and ended up
24
finishing the fit-out – managing the fit-out there.
25
MR WOODWARD:
Of course, she
So she ended up taking the
And did you understand Mr Rosewarne to have a
26
particular connection with that proposal to fit-out those
27
offices at the Western Bulldogs premises?
28
MS HART:
Yes, because in late 2008 on my way to a meeting
29
with him I was coming up the corridor, and he was in the
30
corridor with another man.
That man left, and then when
1705
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
I went into the office, Mr Rosewarne told me that the man
2
was Campbell Rose who was the CEO at the time of the
3
Western Bulldogs, and that he had put to Jeff – to Mr
4
Rosewarne that there was this office accommodation
5
available at their precinct, and would we be interested
6
in leasing that?
7
commitment to the Footscray CAD, and so he said “Yes,
8
fair enough.”
9
sorry, when Ms Thompson contacted me she advised me that
10
11
At the time I reminded Jeff of our
But then in 2009 when Janet contacted me –
Mr Rosewarne was aware of these matters.
MR WOODWARD:
So to your knowledge then, notwithstanding your
12
reminding him of the commitment to the Footscray CAD, he
13
apparently went ahead and entered into that arrangement,
14
which was only ever going to last for a couple of years.
15
Is that as you understood it?
16
MS HART:
That’s correct.
17
MR WOODWARD:
And it was those two matters that you have
18
referred to that particularly escalated the ill will
19
between yourself and Mr Rosewarne as you saw it?
20
21
MS HART:
I think that’s what brought it to a final, sort of
.....
22
MR WOODWARD:
23
MS HART:
And what then happened?
He announced to his executive that he was
24
restructuring, and then they – he proceeded to
25
restructure during meetings where I was present.
26
basically not asked my opinion.
27
it apart and I was sort of pushed to the side of the
28
meetings.
29
30
MR WOODWARD:
I was
They just basically tore
And what – the area you were to move into was
called projects?
1706
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
MS HART:
2
MR WOODWARD:
3
That’s correct.
reports and responsibility from where you had been?
4
MS HART:
5
MR WOODWARD:
6
MS HART:
7
It went down to about nine staff.
From what?
From about 50-odd, and my budget went from I think
about $160 million to about four or $5 million.
8
MR WOODWARD:
9
MS HART:
10
And how did that compare in terms of your
How long were you in that role for?
I was in that role until I think March 2011, I think
it was.
11
MR WOODWARD:
12
leave?
13
MS HART:
14
MR WOODWARD:
15
MS HART:
16
MR WOODWARD:
17
MS HART:
18
MR WOODWARD:
19
MS HART:
20
MR WOODWARD:
And that was when you went on long service
I went on long service leave prior to that.
Right.
I went on long service leave in May – end of May.
Of two thousand and - - -
I think it was 2010.
Right.
And – sorry.
Go on.
So what – had the change occurred – the
21
restructure occurred before or after you – or while you
22
were on long service leave?
23
MS HART:
The day before I went on long service leave, Mr
24
Rosewarne called me into his office.
25
acting secretary – Mr Dawkins had left the Department –
26
and he advised me that he was probably going to
27
restructure while I was away, and there probably wouldn’t
28
be a job for me when I got back.
29
30
MR WOODWARD:
At that time he was
And was that really the – was that the end of
the conversation on that topic?
1707
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
2
MS HART:
Yes.
Well, while I was away I had a phone call from
Mr Bugden.
3
MR WOODWARD:
4
MS HART:
5
MR WOODWARD:
6
MS HART:
That’s Tony Bugden, B-u-g-d-e-n.
That’s correct.
And what did he call to say to you?
He advised me that Mr Rosewarne was restructuring.
7
There would no longer be a projects – a requirement for a
8
projects division, and that I would probably not have a
9
job.
10
MR WOODWARD:
Can I just – before we move to the next thing in
11
time, you mentioned earlier that it was in meetings where
12
you present where this restructure proposal was being
13
discussed without any real input, or indeed, without you
14
being invited to provide any input.
15
that there was a perception in the Department that
16
effectively you were being shunted aside.
17
can you describe for us how at least from your
18
perspective that perception was apparent to you?
19
20
MS HART:
But you also said
Can you say –
Other employees of the Department would speak to me
about it.
21
MR WOODWARD:
22
MS HART:
What did they say?
They would say things like, you know, “What did you
23
do to deserve this?”
24
because I had stood up to Jeff – to Mr Rosewarne that
25
that was one of the reasons this was happening.
26
other – some of my peers from other parts of the
27
organisation would also raise it with me.
28
MR WOODWARD:
My own staff also believed that
So – and
Was there any – did you at the time feel you had
29
any way of responding to or dealing with what was
30
generally perceived to being sidelined in that way?
1708
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
Was
G.I. HART
1
2
3
there anyone you could go to?
MS HART:
No, not really.
I did – sorry, I did go and see Mr
Bugden.
4
MR WOODWARD:
5
MS HART:
Who – what was his position at the time?
He was the general manager of human resources, and I
6
explained my concerns to him.
7
the time, and he said “Don’t worry about it.
8
wash over you.
9
Just grin and bear it.”
10
MR WOODWARD:
And I was quite upset at
Just let it
It will all turn out good in the end.
And then it was Mr Bugden who called you while
11
you were on long service leave to tell you that
12
effectively you would not have a job on your return, and
13
the projects division which you had been shunted to was
14
being itself restricted out of existence?
15
MS HART:
16
MR WOODWARD:
17
Yes.
Yes.
And – so what was the position when you finished
long service leave?
18
MS HART:
19
MR WOODWARD:
20
MS HART:
21
MR WOODWARD:
22
MS HART:
About when was that first?
I came back in December.
Of?
That year, 2010 it must have been.
And so – and what was the position then?
I was still heading up projects division, but a new
23
division had been created called emergency management,
24
and that was to take effect, I think, from 1 March 2011,
25
so I was then to move into that role.
26
MR WOODWARD:
27
MS HART:
And what was that role?
That role looked at managing – or putting in place
28
policies and procedures to manage large-scale and small-
29
scale emergencies within government schools.
30
a responsibility for the critical student incident unit,
1709
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
I also had
G.I. HART
1
which dealt with sexual assaults, or allegations of
2
sexual harassments in schools and things like that.
3
I – sorry.
4
MR WOODWARD:
5
MS HART:
6
MR WOODWARD:
7
MS HART:
8
MR WOODWARD:
9
Go on.
I also had responsibility for accommodation.
What sort of accommodation?
Both head office and regional accommodation.
For Department employees?
For the Department
officers?
10
MS HART:
11
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
And how did that role compare to the one you had
12
had until you were moved to projects?
13
role or - - -
14
And
MS HART:
Was it a bigger
No, it wasn’t a bigger role but it was a very
15
important role because you – we had to deal with, you
16
know, when there was major floods or fires or things like
17
that so - - -
18
MR WOODWARD:
19
MS HART:
20
What had happened to Mr Rosewarne by this time?
He – he had gone to head up the Department of
Primary Industries.
21
MR WOODWARD:
22
MS HART:
23
MR WOODWARD:
24
MS HART:
And did that happen while you were on leave?
Yes, it did.
Do you know why he left at that time?
When Mr Bugden rang me to tell me – Mr Bugden rang
25
me a second time – he had rung me to tell me there was no
26
job for me and then rang back a little while later – I
27
can’t remember the actual amount of time, might have been
28
weeks or a couple of months – and said that there was a
29
problem because Mr Rosewarne hadn’t got the job as
30
secretary, that he was going to DPI and the problem was
1710
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
me – as in me – that I was a bit of a loose end that
2
needed to be resolved and I said, “I don’t know what you
3
mean.”
4
And he said, “Well, you know, you’re – you’re – we
5
haven’t got a role for you and we need to sort that out
6
before Jeff leaves on Friday.”
7
Rosewarne leaves on Friday.
8
of days later and said that they had created a new
9
division called emergency management and that I would be
Sorry, before Mr
So he rang me back a couple
10
heading that division up when I got back and I said to
11
him, “Well, I’ll think about that and I’ll let you know
12
whether I’ll do that when I get back.”
13
14
MR WOODWARD:
role?
15
MS HART:
16
MR WOODWARD:
17
And you did ultimately agree to take on that
Yes, I did.
Yes.
retired in - - -
18
MS HART:
19
MR WOODWARD:
20
MS HART:
21
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
- - - 2013?
That’s correct.
You had already ceased to be the chair of the
22
APU.
23
service leave?
24
25
26
27
MS HART:
Did that happen about the time you went on long
That happened when I left the role of corporate
services.
MR WOODWARD:
I see.
So when you were moved to the projects
area.
28
MS HART:
29
MR WOODWARD:
30
And that was what you were doing when you
Projects division.
That also – whose decision was that that you
ceased to have that role?
1711
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
2
3
MS HART:
That was actually mine.
I told Jeff – Mr Rosewarne
that I wasn’t prepared to undertake that role anymore.
MR WOODWARD:
I want to move now, Ms Hart, just to talk
4
briefly about banker schools.
You’ve already indicated
5
to the Commissioner that that was not a concept that you
6
were particularly familiar with until you were asked to
7
inquire into the fleet problems at regional offices in
8
Gippsland and Bendigo.
9
come to learn about banker schools?
At that time, what did you then
Was it a term that
10
you picked up at that time or was it just the actual
11
concept – use of schools to hold funds that you learnt
12
about?
13
MS HART:
There was another incident that happened that made
14
me start to realise that it was something that was more
15
widespread than – than just the fleet.
16
from the eastern region rang me about another matter but
17
during the discussion, mentioned that they’ve been to
18
Tasmania for a two or three-day conference which I found
19
odd at the time because we – we were told – we – the
20
policy was that if you had a conference – you know, an
21
internal conference, it was to be in Victoria, not – not
22
interstate.
23
An – an officer
So we did a bit of investigation to find out how it
24
was paid for and – and where they went and we couldn’t
25
find anything in the accounting systems to identify that
26
the Department had paid for the airfares or the
27
accommodation or the meals or whatever.
28
became apparent that then money was being used out of
29
schools to pay for these sorts of things.
30
MR WOODWARD:
And so, it
What did you come to learn about that
1712
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
2
conference?
MS HART:
Who went on it and who organised it?
Mr Jim Watterston was the regional director at the
3
time and it was my understanding that his sort of senior
4
staff went on that conference.
5
6
MR WOODWARD:
people went on that conference?
7
MS HART:
8
MR WOODWARD:
9
Not that I can recall.
And were you ever able to identify where the
funds actually did come from?
10
MS HART:
11
MR WOODWARD:
12
Did you have an understanding of about how many
No, I wasn’t.
No.
But you were able to satisfy yourself that
it wasn’t paid out of the Department head office.
13
MS HART:
14
MR O’BRYAN:
That’s correct.
So we’re not talking about a conference with
15
Tasmania unless we’re talking about a conference of
16
Victorians in Tasmania.
17
MS HART:
18
MR O’BRYAN:
19
MR WOODWARD:
20
21
That’s correct.
Yes.
Were there other instances of the use of funds
that you were unable to trace after these discoveries?
MS HART:
Yes, there was.
There was Christmas parties hosted
22
by Mr Rosewarne and Mister – Mister – sorry, I forgot his
23
name.
24
MR WOODWARD:
25
MS HART:
26
27
28
29
30
Mr Fraser?
Fraser.
Mr Fraser, sorry.
That we – I couldn’t
find where the money was coming from to pay for those.
MR WOODWARD:
parties?
MS HART:
And what do you know about those Christmas
Where were they and when?
They were after Mr Hehir had left because Mr Hehir
introduced a departmental Christmas party in I think it
1713
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
was the year after he started, and it was agreed at that
2
time that there would only be one departmental Christmas
3
party that would be funded – that would be partially
4
funded by the Department through a donation to the
5
Department’s social club and that staff would contribute
6
to that Christmas party and the Christmas party was held
7
at – behind 2 Treasury Place in the city.
8
9
But after Mr Hehir left, that party was still held
but all the executives who reported to Mr Rosewarne and
10
Mr Fraser and regional directors – because they reported
11
to Mr Fraser – and some of the admin staff were – got an
12
invitation to a Christmas party that was held in Fitzroy.
13
I attended that Christmas party on the assumption that I
14
would be paying for my own meal and that maybe Mr Fraser
15
and Mr Rosewarne would put some money on the bar to thank
16
staff which is what I would do when I took my staff out
17
for our regular Christmas party not funded by the
18
Department.
19
At that Christmas party, we all had lunch and there
20
were drinks and we were told we didn’t have to pay for
21
it.
22
bags” full of little knickknacks and bits and pieces.
23
knew – I knew when I left that Christmas party that Jeff
24
and – sorry – Mr Rosewarne and Mr Fraser hadn’t paid for
25
it.
26
the case.
27
We’re also given a – what they were calling “show
I
I mean, I just knew in – that it – that it wasn’t
And so I tried to track down through our accounting
28
systems how it was paid for, checked their corporate
29
cards and personal expenses, and there was no evidence
30
that the money had come out of the Department’s budget.
1714
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
In the proceeding – in the following years, sorry, they
2
held Christmas parties at a – a bowling club.
3
was - - -
4
MR WOODWARD:
5
MS HART:
I think it
Oakleigh?
I – I can’t remember where it was because I didn’t
6
go.
I – I didn’t want to go because I knew that they
7
were using departmental money somehow to fund these
8
Christmas parties.
9
Treasury Place to wherever the bowling thing was.
They hired a bus to take staff from
And I
10
know they continued to give out show bags because Mr
11
Rosewarne’s executive assistant said to me, “Don’t forget
12
to call in and pick up your show bag,” because she knew I
13
hadn’t attended the functions.
14
MR WOODWARD:
15
MS HART:
Did you pick up your show bag?
No, no.
But – sorry – there – there was – the final
16
Christmas party that – that I believe they held was being
17
held in North Melbourne and we got an invitation and it
18
actually had on it – there was a dollar contribution to
19
be paid.
20
“You should come, you know.”
21
– I might come.”
22
you know – and it wasn’t a sit-down meal.
23
So some of my peers who were attending said,
And I said, “All right.
And because we were paying, I thought,
It was going to finger food so I thought, “Well,
24
that’s – that’s okay.”
25
once again that the – the amount that we were
26
contributing in no way met what the party would have
27
cost.
28
end finger food and very expensive wine and we were all
29
given a show bag on our way out.
30
I
But when I got there, I realised
It – it was certainly finger food but it was high-
And the reason I remember the show bag was because in
1715
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
it was a bottle of olive oil that one of the staff
2
members had an olive farm down in the western district
3
somewhere and it was actually her brand of olive oil,
4
which I thought was quite interesting that someone
5
somewhere was paying for, you know, about 50 bottles of
6
olive oil to this person who worked – who worked for Mr
7
Fraser.
8
9
10
MR O’BRYAN:
What else was in the show bags?
No Bertie
Beetles?
MS HART:
There might have been a bottle of wine but I – I
11
can’t – I really can’t remember, but I do remember the
12
olive oil.
13
14
MR WOODWARD:
How many – between the – the bowling club
parties, were there two of those?
15
MS HART:
There was two that I recall.
16
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
So there was the one in Fitzroy, there was
17
the two bowling club ones, and the one you’ve just
18
described in North Melbourne that you can recall.
19
MS HART:
Yes.
20
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
And so it was over that period of trying
21
to track down where the money was coming from that you
22
again identified, was it, that it must be coming out of –
23
having learned about the existence of money in the
24
schools, did you then form a view as to where it was
25
coming from?
26
MS HART:
Yes, I – I had formed the view that Mr Fraser and Mr
27
Rosewarne were putting money into schools and they were
28
using those funds for their own purposes.
29
30
MR WOODWARD:
Did you at any stage, having come to that
realisation, discuss that practice with anyone in the
1716
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
2
Department?
MS HART:
I discussed it with a number of people in the
3
Department.
4
was the – a general manager or – at that stage we might
5
have been called executive directors.
6
responsibility for – one of his functions was the audit –
7
internal audit function.
8
MR WOODWARD:
9
MS HART:
I raised it with Mr Kelly who was the – he
But he had
So I discussed it with him.
What did you discuss with Mr Kelly?
Prior to me discussing that with Mr Kelly, I had had
10
a conversation with Mr Stephen Brown who had been a
11
regional director, but at that stage was an executive
12
director in charge of literacy and numeracy, I think it
13
was.
14
MR WOODWARD:
15
MS HART:
16
MR WOODWARD:
17
MS HART:
18
That’s right.
He was on the same floor as I was.
And what did you discuss with Mr Brown?
We had a number of discussions about – over time
about the behaviours of Mr Rosewarne and Mr - - -
19
MR WOODWARD:
20
MS HART:
21
So he was now based in head office.
Fraser.
- - - Fraser.
And he raised with me that Mr Allman
- - -
22
MR WOODWARD:
23
MS HART:
You said Mr Allman?
Mr Allman had spoken to him about a set of books
24
that Mr Allman was running for Mr Fraser.
And these
25
books were in Mr Allman’s office.
26
and I think it might have been a red folder from what I
27
remember Mr Brown told me.
28
the money that Mr Fraser had been putting into schools
29
and how the money was being spent.
30
the time that he should try to get those – that folder
It was like a folder,
And that this detailed all
1717
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
I said to Mr Brown at
G.I. HART
1
because if we got that folder, then we would have
2
evidence and we would be able to take the matter to a
3
much higher level.
4
that was a bit of a shame.
5
MR WOODWARD:
6
MS HART:
He – he didn’t get the book so – so
Do you know whether he tried to get the folder?
Mr Allman would lock his office so I think that was
7
the difficulty, finding an opportunity to get – to get
8
the folder without being noticed.
9
10
MR WOODWARD:
like, to you then speaking to Mr Kelly.
11
MS HART:
12
MR WOODWARD:
13
Kelly?
14
And you said that that was the precursor, if you
MS HART:
Yes.
So what did you – what did you discuss with Mr
I raised with Mr Kelly my conversation with Mr
15
Brown, and Mr Kelly advised me that Mr Brown had also
16
raised that matter with him.
17
MR WOODWARD:
18
MS HART:
19
MR WOODWARD:
And what was Mr Kelly going to do about it?
I’m not sure what Mr Kelly would do.
Did he say anything to you about either the fact
20
that it was occurring or what he was going to do about it
21
and what he - - -
22
MS HART:
No, he - - -
23
MR WOODWARD:
24
MS HART:
25
MR WOODWARD:
- - - what he might do about it?
No, he didn’t.
Did you get an impression from Mr Kelly as to
26
what view he had, or did he say anything to you to
27
indicate what view he had about Mr Allman running this
28
red folder of documents concerning money in schools?
29
30
MS HART:
Mr Kelly and I had had a number of conversations
about behaviours across the organisation over time, and I
1718
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
think he had a similar view to me that things weren’t
2
right.
3
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
Do you think that it was something that he could
4
have done something about if he had had the desire to do
5
so?
6
MS HART:
I think – my understanding that – from – that Mr
7
Kelly, in his role as heading up internal audit, may have
8
been able to raise those matters with the Auditor-
9
General.
I think there’s a bit of a connection – like a
10
– it’s a bit like in – yes, that although he doesn’t
11
report to the external auditors, I think there’s a
12
relationship where you can bring matters to their
13
attention.
14
15
MR WOODWARD:
Did you ever discuss with him the possibility of
him doing that?
16
MS HART:
No.
17
MR WOODWARD:
18
MS HART:
19
MR O’BRYAN:
20
MS HART:
And he didn’t raise it with you?
No, not that I recall.
So does he still head up internal audit?
To the best of my knowledge, he is currently – he
21
has currently been seconded into the position that I held
22
as executive director, emergency management.
23
what I have been led to believe recently.
24
25
26
27
28
MR WOODWARD:
That was
But he was certainly in that audit role until
quite recently, to your knowledge?
MS HART:
That – internal audit fell under his – his umbrella
of responsibility.
MR WOODWARD:
What about Mr Brown?
What do you understand his
29
position to have been in relation to trying to follow
30
this concern through?
1719
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
MS HART:
Mr Brown had recently – at that point, had recently
2
been appointed to the role of executive director,
3
literacy and numeracy.
4
been anointed by Mr Dawkins as Mr Fraser’s replacement,
5
not that Mr Fraser had mentioned that he was leaving but
6
it was a common view that he had been anointed.
7
Fraser didn’t like that and made Mr Brown’s life
8
extremely difficult, extremely difficult.
9
10
MR WOODWARD:
MS HART:
12
MR O’BRYAN:
MS HART:
15
MR O’BRYAN:
16
MS HART:
MR O’BRYAN:
19
MS HART:
21
Yes, yes.
So just to be clear about the hierarchy, who did
I think he reported to Mr Fraser.
Yes.
And what about Mr Kelly?
Mr Kelly reported to Mr Tony Cook I think it was at
the time.
18
20
And was that something Mr Brown had discussed
Mr Brown report to as an executive director?
14
17
And Mr
with you over time?
11
13
And there was a view that he had
Yes.
Although Mr Cook may have left by that stage but
- - MR WOODWARD:
Did you come to learn that Mr Nino Napoli had
22
some role in relation to the banker school or money in
23
schools?
24
MS HART:
Yes, I did.
25
MR WOODWARD:
26
MS HART:
How did you come to learn that?
I think it was in meetings that Mr Rosewarne had
27
with myself and my peers.
28
in those meetings banker schools were eventually
29
discussed.
30
MR WOODWARD:
We had a regular meeting and
And what – what did you understand, or come to
1720
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
understand his connection with it was?
2
should ask first, sorry.
3
Napoli over the years at the Department?
4
MS HART:
Had you – I
Had you had much to do with Mr
I formed a view very early in my time in the
5
Department that Mr Napoli wasn’t a person of trustworthy
6
- - -
7
MR O’BRYAN:
8
9
10
11
Well, you’re jumping ahead a bit.
I think,
firstly, you’ve just been asked whether you - - MS HART:
So - - -
MR O’BRYAN:
- - - what, came to know him.
So I think just
stick to the questions at the moment.
12
MS HART:
Sorry.
13
MR WOODWARD:
I had very little to do with Mr Napoli.
Was that partly because of your role, but also
14
partly by your own decision that you didn’t want to have
15
much to do with Mr Napoli?
16
MS HART:
That’s correct, both – both are correct.
17
MR WOODWARD:
As time passed though, did you understand that
18
Mr Napoli was also someone who was involved in – in this
19
money in schools process and getting money out of schools
20
for particular tasks?
21
arranging particular services or goods?
22
23
24
MS HART:
No.
Well, sorry, particular –
I’ve only become aware of that in recent times
through the press.
MR WOODWARD:
And was there a time when you became concerned
25
about the use of full time employee – full time
26
equivalent employees within the Department?
27
MS HART:
28
MR WOODWARD:
29
MS HART:
30
Yes, there was.
And how did that come up?
I was responsible for accommodation and – there had
been a restructure in the Department and, as a
1721
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
consequence, we were moving people around to facilitate
2
the new arrangements.
3
number of FTEs, full-time equivalents, and they had to
4
live within those full-time equivalents.
5
trying to fit Mr Fraser’s people into their new
6
allocation of space, the numbers of staff he had didn’t
7
match the FTEs, even taking into consideration part-time
8
staff.
9
to identify that some of the people on his lists weren’t
Mr – so each office was given a
When I was
So we had a bit of a look at that and I was able
10
actually on his payroll, they were on schools payrolls
11
and they were also in the Department’s – we had an online
12
staff directory and they were actually shown as
13
physically being located somewhere else;
14
school.
that is, a
15
So I raised this matter with Mr Rosewarne and he said
16
that’s impossible that he has got different numbers – you
17
know, the wrong numbers, and I said, “Well, this is what
18
he’s saying and it’s well over what we’ve got space for
19
and his allocation.”
20
look into it and get back to me, and he did that and he
21
came back and said, “Just find him the space.”
22
where that was left at.
23
MR WOODWARD:
Mr Rosewarne told me that he would
So that’s
And so was the effect of the process you’ve
24
described that by effectively employing additional staff
25
for head office from schools, even though they had
26
nothing to do with the schools, that they were – those
27
executives involved were actually thwarting the rules in
28
relation to the number of employees in head office?
29
30
MS HART:
That’s correct.
Each department is given an FTE
allocation – I think it’s through Treasury and Finance –
1722
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
and that’s the number you’re – that’s the head count
2
you’re meant to have, taking into account the number may
3
vary because of part-time staff.
4
people working half each;
5
MR WOODWARD:
So you might have two
that equates to one FTE.
And your investigations showed that there were a
6
lot more people – bodies on the ground than there should
7
have been.
8
identify that they were effectively being paid out of
9
schools at that time?
10
MS HART:
11
MR O’BRYAN:
And, again, was it – were you able to
Yes.
You’ve worked in several places in the Victorian
12
Public Service, I gather, over the decades.
13
ever come across this kind of bending the rules - - -
14
MS HART:
15
MR O’BRYAN:
16
else?
17
MS HART:
18
MR O’BRYAN:
19
MS HART:
20
Have you
No.
- - - getting around the rules culture anywhere
No.
So this was a unique thing, in your experience?
In my experience, in 32 years, I had never seen
anything like it in any other department.
21
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
22
MR WOODWARD:
Just getting back to the – you were still,
23
obviously until 2010, in your APU role.
24
understand that as – again, as time developed, the
25
pressures on the APU to meet the demands of Mr Fraser,
26
and Mr Rosewarne in particular, were increasing?
27
MS HART:
Yes.
28
MR WOODWARD:
Is it – do we
I would say that was the case.
And were there any particular engagements that
29
stood out for you, particularly in the latter years, that
30
concerned you in relation to procurement?
1723
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
2
MS HART:
There were procurement matters that didn’t come to
the APU that concerned me.
3
MR WOODWARD:
4
MS HART:
What – can you give us some examples of those?
For example, Mr Rosewarne employed Mr Chris Bennett
5
on a number of occasions;
6
and he would be paid for that.
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
MR WOODWARD:
put him on different boards
So Mr Chris Bennett, B-e-n-n-e-t-t, where was –
what organisation did he work for?
MS HART:
I think he worked at Pricewaterhouse – PwC –
PricewaterhouseCoopers.
MR WOODWARD:
And how did you come to learn about Mr Bennett
being offered those positions by Mr Rosewarne?
MS HART:
The first position that I was aware of on a board
14
was actually on a board that I reported to.
15
project a called the HRMS Project, which I’ve referred to
16
earlier, which was a major upgrade of our HR system, and
17
there had been some problems with the project early in
18
the piece and, in fact, we had terminated the contract of
19
the company – the incumbent company who was originally –
20
who was running HRMS for the Department, but it was also
21
– in their contract was a – there was provision for them
22
to upgrade the system.
23
and went back out to tender.
24
called ASG, and I think it was at that time that Mr
25
Rosewarne advised me that he was putting Mr Bennett on to
26
our project board.
27
arrived and attended most of the meetings after that.
28
MR WOODWARD:
So I ran a
So we terminated their contract
And we appointed a company
And at the next meeting Mr Bennett
And did you understand him to be there in his
29
capacity as a partner with PricewaterhouseCoopers and was
30
being paid?
1724
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
2
MS HART:
That’s correct, but I wasn’t sure how he was being
paid because I had the budget for the HRMS project.
3
MR WOODWARD:
4
MS HART:
5
6
Yes.
And I never received an invoice for Mr Bennet for
his work on that project board.
MR WOODWARD:
Were there other instances where you became
7
aware of Mr Bennett being offered positions or work by Mr
8
Rosewarne?
9
MS HART:
Yes.
He was put on to the CASES21 project board.
10
He was on the Ultranet project board.
11
placed on a panel.
12
was for, but it was a panel – or PWC was.
13
also put on to the VRQA, Victorian Regulation
14
Qualification Authority’s board.
15
that was the CEO of that – of the VRQA, Ms Lyn Glover,
16
advised me that she was very unhappy that he had been put
17
on to her board.
18
19
20
MR WOODWARD:
There – he was
I can’t remember the sort of work it
And he was
And the reason I know
And do you know who he had been – who had put
him on the board?
MS HART:
My understanding is that it was a position that had
21
to be approved by the Minister because it was an
22
authority.
23
time would have approved that on someone’s
24
recommendation.
25
MR WOODWARD:
So I would presume that the Minister at the
I see.
And do you recall any instances where Mr
26
Bennett was required to tender for work in the Department
27
or learning of any instances?
28
MS HART:
There was – prior to me leaving corporate services,
29
I had a meeting with a woman named Ms Patrice Miller who
30
worked – who had worked for me at some point, but had
1725
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
secured employment in finance – the finance division, and
2
I think she reported to Mr Napoli.
3
confidence and said she had a problem with a tender that
4
she was managing and I asked her why, what was the
5
problem.
6
PWC must be given the tender – or the work.
7
that was a consequence of a conversation that Mr
8
Rosewarne had had with Mr Bennett, apparently at a
9
football match.
10
She came to me in
And she said that Mr Napoli had told her that
And that
That’s what she relayed to me.
My advice to her was that she should tell Mr Napoli
11
that she wasn’t prepared to make that recommendation
12
because her – what she had told me was another company
13
had scored better than PWC and PWC wasn’t her
14
recommendation.
15
Napoli.
16
would mean in relation to her position in the
17
organisation.
18
then one of the options I said she could look to do that
19
might help her out is, rather than giving PWC the work,
20
to put in place a panel for the works with the preferred
21
company and whoever else she felt appropriate.
22
way she would – she would satisfy Mr Napoli but also
23
satisfy herself that she hadn’t done something completely
24
wrong.
25
MR WOODWARD:
26
My advice to her was to push back on Mr
And she had concerns about that as to what that
So we sort of tossed it around a bit, and
And that
And do you know what the outcome of that tender
ultimate was?
27
MS HART:
My understanding was the panel was put in place.
28
MR WOODWARD:
29
MS HART:
30
MR WOODWARD:
And the panel of different organisations - - -
Different providers.
- - - that could then provide those services.
1726
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
MS HART:
That’s correct.
2
MR WOODWARD:
And just finally, Ms Hart, you’ve provided a
3
number of instances where over the years you had had
4
concerns about the way in which particular things were
5
funded, and then sought to identify whether the funds had
6
come from central office and was – were unable to find
7
that it had, and that led you to the view that it was
8
coming out of money in schools.
9
mentioned the Christmas parties.
And I think you’ve
You’ve mentioned the –
10
Mr Watterston’s trip to Tasmania.
11
instances that you investigated similar to that?
12
MS HART:
Were there any other
There was another one that I can – that I can
13
recall.
14
I can’t think of his name at the moment, but this
15
American was apparently an education guru.
16
had invited all of his executives and regional directors
17
to attend meetings with this chap - - -
18
MR WOODWARD:
19
MS HART:
Mr Fraser had hosted an American named – sorry,
And Mr Fraser
Richard Elmore?
Yes, that – Richard Elmore was his name.
Sorry.
20
And they held this – these meetings with Mr Elmore at the
21
Sofitel, and apparently they all stayed there the night
22
at the Sofitel, and they had lunch and dinner at the
23
Sofitel which was unusual.
24
live in the metropolitan area don’t stay overnight at
25
government’s expense in a hotel.
26
receipts for that event and we couldn’t find that at all.
27
It wasn’t in the accounting system and it wasn’t in the
28
corporate cards or personal expenses.
29
30
MR WOODWARD:
Usually public servants who
So we tried to find the
How many people do you understand stayed at the
Sofitel over that – at that time?
1727
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
MS HART:
Well, I think at the time there were about nine
2
regional directors, and there would have been probably
3
another 10 to 12 people who were direct reports to Mr
4
Fraser who were at – who attended that event.
5
MR WOODWARD:
6
MS HART:
7
MR WOODWARD:
8
9
10
Yes, yes.
Who – many, if not all of whom, were not far
from the metropolitan area.
MS HART:
Well, there was only four regional directors who
were - - -
11
MR WOODWARD:
12
MS HART:
13
MR WOODWARD:
14
So we’re talking in excess of 20 staff?
The region.
- - - what we classified as rural regions.
And having looked for and not found any evidence
of the way in which that was paid for, what did you do?
15
MS HART:
16
MR O’BRYAN:
17
MS HART:
I don’t think I did anything about that.
Why not?
Well, my direct report was still Mr Rosewarne at the
18
time, and I’m sure if I had have raised it with him I
19
would have just been told, well, that’s just none of your
20
business.
21
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
And you never learned where the – where the
22
money came from to pay for the – for the – the whatever
23
it was, meeting?
24
MS HART:
No, I never did.
25
MR WOODWARD:
Were there other – are there any conferences
26
that you attended of that kind, Ms Hart, that you can
27
recall where staff were staying as part of a conference
28
or - - -
29
30
MS HART:
Mr Rosewarne would annually hold a retreat where – a
planning retreat where his direct reports would go away
1728
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
with him, and we usually go away for a day and a night
2
and the next day.
3
program and priorities for the following year.
4
also an annual retreat that the secretary ran that, up
5
until Mr Bolt was there, was held off-site at a
6
conference venue, whereas Mr Bolt tended to do his, you
7
know, at a local facility.
8
9
10
MR WOODWARD:
And we would work through our work
There was
Were there any particular retreats that you went
to that come to mind?
MS HART:
There was a retreat out the Yarra Valley.
I think
11
it was the Sebel – it was a golf course sort of place.
12
And I remember that one particular because Mr Fraser got
13
quite drunk.
14
refused service at that event by the bar attendant staff.
15
And the next day he was meant to present and he didn’t
16
present because he obviously was still in bed and that
17
wasn’t uncommon knowledge.
18
in the Department knew that Mr Fraser would get very
19
drunk at events and sometimes have to be carried out.
20
21
22
MR WOODWARD:
In fact, very drunk.
In fact, he was
It wasn’t uncommon.
What about others?
People
Were any others involved who
were a bit scarce the following morning?
MS HART:
No.
No, I mean, certainly others were – were – were
23
drinking but I can’t remember anybody else missing in
24
action the next day.
25
MR WOODWARD:
You’ve described in some detail, Ms Hart, the
26
impediments at least as you saw them to trying to deal
27
with the sorts of concerns that you had identified.
28
at that time at least in your mind would have made a
29
difference to you in endeavouring to respond to or to –
30
yes, to respond to the concerns that you had particularly
1729
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
What
G.I. HART
1
2
in the latter part of the 2000s?
MS HART:
I think what – what was needed was a strong
3
secretary who had – had a good moral compass and who
4
could be firm and assertive with – and who people felt
5
they could go to.
6
I would have gone to him on most of these matters.
7
MR WOODWARD:
8
MS HART:
9
10
11
I mean, had Mr Hehir still been there,
And expected what to happen?
I would have expected Mr Hehir to be shocked and to
actually deal with the matters as he had – as he had done
with the personal expenses.
MR WOODWARD:
Anything else?
Any other processes that could
12
have existed at the time that might have assisted you
13
with the concerns that you had?
14
MS HART:
I mean, there were things like the whistle-blower
15
sort of things that were in place but everybody knew that
16
if you went – if you did – you did whistle blow, that
17
they could usually work out who it was because the
18
investigation was handled by someone in – nominated
19
within the Department.
20
enough thing to – to have in place.
So that – that wasn’t a strong
21
And – and because you had two of the most senior
22
people in the organisation controlling the organisation,
23
I don’t know other than having a secretary who’s even
24
stronger.
25
some of the other things that – that have occurred,
26
leaving people in positions for such a long period of
27
time where they can absolutely control things is – is not
28
good practice.
29
30
MR WOODWARD:
But – but certainly, you know, in regards to
And so far as the broader culture is concerned,
apart from the particular culture around Mr Rosewarne and
1730
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
Mr Fraser that you’ve described, were there other aspects
2
of the culture within the Department that you felt
3
contributed to these kinds of problems continuing?
4
MS HART:
I was informed by a – a staff member out at the
5
Bendigo office that there were substantial bullying going
6
on there.
7
consequence and that person actually brought – brought
8
what was happening in that office to the current – the
9
secretary at the time, Mr Dawkins’ attention and a couple
People were – were on WorkCover as a
10
of weeks later they rang me and told me that they had
11
been given a package and they were leaving the
12
Department.
13
you either got battered or you – they looked at ways to
14
get rid of you.
15
MR WOODWARD:
So it was sort of like if you did speak up,
Just focusing on the banker schools for the
16
moment and accepting that you didn’t have a detailed
17
understanding of the way in which that process operated,
18
who, as you understood it, within the organisation was
19
responsible for overseeing the sort of – that practice
20
that might have been in a position to do something about
21
that?
22
23
MS HART:
I would have thought the chief financial officer
- - -
24
MR WOODWARD:
25
MS HART:
Yes.
- - - Ms – Ms Claire Britchford at the time.
26
not sure if she’s still there.
27
she had an obligation to ensure things were being
28
appropriately run and reported.
29
30
MR WOODWARD:
I’m
I would have thought that
Did you have any yourself, based on anything –
any discussions with her or anyone else, knowledge about
1731
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
the extent of her knowledge of the use of schools to hold
2
funds?
3
MS HART:
Certainly in meetings that we had with Mr Rosewarne,
4
our weekly meetings, the – the issue of banker schools –
5
but they were called something different by that stage, I
6
think – program - - -
7
MR WOODWARD:
8
MS HART:
9
Program coordinator schools.
- - - coordinator schools or something.
So I think
in – in one of those meetings, Mr Rosewarne had talked
10
about reducing the number of schools who were involved in
11
– in the practice and that there would be greater
12
scrutiny of that and I assumed, because Ms Britchford was
13
sitting in those meetings, that it was her who would be
14
taking responsibility given her role as the CFO.
15
MR WOODWARD:
What about the use of school – those banker
16
schools for functions and so on?
17
in those meetings?
18
MS HART:
19
MR WOODWARD:
Did that ever come up
No.
No.
Did you, based on what was discussed in
20
those meetings, have an understanding as to what the
21
program coordinator school’s role was?
22
MS HART:
What I had been led to believe was that money that –
23
money that was meant for programs for schools or school
24
principals and teachers would be given to those schools
25
and then those schools would be responsible for
26
distributing them or running the programs and paying for
27
them.
28
MR WOODWARD:
But the practice which we’ve come to learn about
29
of individual schools holding funds for the payment of
30
expenses that are completely unrelated to the school or
1732
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
the region in which the school exists, is that something
2
that was widely known, to your knowledge?
3
MS HART:
No, not to my - - -
4
MR WOODWARD:
Well, you referred to the use of – what you
5
assumed was the use of banker schools to pay for fulltime
6
equivalent staff in the head office.
7
of that kind of practice?
8
9
MS HART:
Yes.
Is that an example
I – I think people would have known about
those matters that – well, the regions who were leasing
10
cars knew that – where the money was coming from.
11
regional director who took staff to Tasmania knew where
12
the money was coming from but I think – well, I would
13
have thought the thing – the other matters that you’ve
14
talked about, Christmas parties and things like that, I
15
would have thought most people didn’t know about that
16
because, I mean, you would have to have concerns about
17
whether it was corrupt and, no, I think people would have
18
kept that hidden from the majority of the – the staff.
19
MR WOODWARD:
The
So, as we now know, for instance, those two –
20
two of those Christmas parties at least were paid by
21
funds held by the Brighton Primary School in one case,
22
and Moonee Ponds West, I think, in another.
23
observation as to how widely it was known that that kind
24
of practice was occurring?
25
MS HART:
What’s your
I – there were some of us who had worked it out, I
26
guess, which is what I had – I had done.
I mean, I
27
hadn’t been told directly.
28
investigations that was had – had decided in my own mind
29
that that was what was happening.
30
other people knew that.
I had through my own
I don’t know how many
I knew Mr Brown did because he –
1733
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
2
3
and I know Mr Kelly did.
MR WOODWARD:
I’m not sure - - -
Because of the existence of the folder of
documents.
4
MS HART:
Yes.
5
MR WOODWARD:
6
MS HART:
7
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
Yes.
Do you think they knew in more detail what the
8
folder – as I understand it, Mr Brown didn’t ever get
9
hold of the folders, so - - -
10
MS HART:
11
MR WOODWARD:
12
13
No.
- - - do you think he knew what the folder
contained?
MS HART:
I think he would have been speculating.
14
that’s my view.
15
knowledge.
16
17
18
MR WOODWARD:
That’s –
I – I’m not sure if he had any in-depth
Thank you, Ms Hart.
That’s all I have,
Commissioner.
MR O’BRYAN:
When you came to suspect or learn of what we’re
19
calling banker school activities, was that the parlance
20
you used internally because a number of principals prefer
21
the parlance “program coordinator schools”?
22
MS HART:
My recollection of my time in the Department it was
23
referred to as “banker schools”, except in one or two of
24
the meetings that Mr Rosewarne chaired where he referred
25
to this “program coordinator schools”.
26
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
And you mentioned earlier what I take to be
27
a benefit to the Western Bulldogs with some office
28
arrangements that had been entered into.
29
that doesn’t happen unless someone has a connection to
30
the football club.
Now, normally
Was there a connection that you’re
1734
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
aware of that Mr Rosewarne or anyone in the senior
2
executive had to the Western Bulldogs?
3
MS HART:
No.
No, other than what I saw in one of the
4
transcripts the other day.
5
recollection is Mr Rosewarne was a Sydney Swans
6
supporter, I think – my recollection – so I wouldn’t have
7
thought he would have a link with Mr Rose or the Western
8
- - -
9
MR O’BRYAN:
10
I hadn’t – I mean, my
So you’ve got no idea why the Western Bulldogs
person you named – was he the CEO?
11
MS HART:
At the time he was.
12
MR O’BRYAN:
13
MS HART:
14
MR O’BRYAN:
15
MS HART:
16
MR O’BRYAN:
17
MR WOODWARD:
18
MR O’BRYAN:
19
MR WOODWARD:
20
MR O’BRYAN:
21
back?
I’ve forgotten his name.
Mr Rose.
Campbell Rose, yes.
You’ve got no idea why he was in the offices?
No.
22
MR WOODWARD:
23
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
That’s it?
Nothing arising from that.
All right.
Thanks Commissioner.
I take it it’s unlikely you would require Ms Hart
Yes.
..... likely, Commissioner.
That’s the usual position.
Well, then, Ms
24
Armstrong, it may be that there’s an application to
25
cross-examine your client.
26
date and that would still require leave were that to
27
happen, so it’s uncertain whether that will happen.
28
you happy to do what others have done to date and just
29
defer your position in terms of whether you want to ask
30
any questions or say anything?
There haven’t been any to
1735
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
Are
G.I. HART
1
MS ARMSTRONG:
2
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes, Commissioner.
To defer.
We choose to defer.
And could I ask you then to let the
3
solicitor for the Commission, Ms Walker, know within,
4
say, a fortnight whether you would want to ask questions
5
if your client wasn’t otherwise coming back so that we
6
can make arrangements for that, and that if you don’t, we
7
will just assume that you wouldn’t otherwise want to say
8
anything or ask questions at this stage.
9
10
MS ARMSTRONG:
MR O’BRYAN:
Indeed, your Honour.
Yes.
All right.
Thank you very much.
Well,
11
then, Ms Hart, it’s unlikely, but your examination may
12
need to be continued at a later date and is therefore
13
adjourned to a date and time to be fixed.
14
bound by the summons and confidentiality notice.
15
will be advised in writing through your legal
16
representatives if that is to occur and of the date and
17
time and you will otherwise be advised in writing through
18
them when you are no longer required.
19
assistance.
20
recording.
21
free to now leave the witness box, Ms Hart.
The time now is 12.23 pm.
MS HART:
23
THE WITNESS WITHDREW
24
MR O’BRYAN:
You
Thank you for your
Please stop the
The examination therefore has ended.
22
25
You remain
You’re
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
[12.23 pm]
And you can be excused from the bar table, Thank
you, Ms Armstrong.
1736
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.I. HART
1
2
3
MR O’BRYAN:
Well, then, Mr Woodward, I understand the next
examinee is Mr Foley.
MR WOODWARD:
That’s so, Commissioner.
And I gather he is not
4
in the vicinity, so by the time he were to get here, I
5
think we would be into lunch time, so - - -
6
7
8
9
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
Well, we may as well – yes.
And are you
examining Mr Foley?
MR WOODWARD:
I am, yes, but – and he will be followed by Mr
Bell, whom Mr Hill will be taking, and Mr Virtue.
10
MR O’BRYAN:
11
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
So where does Mr Foley fit in?
He was the operator of the business Caravan
12
Music, so he had dealings with Mr Rosewarne in relation
13
to the conduct of the Christmas parties in particular.
14
MR O’BRYAN:
15
MR WOODWARD:
16
MR O’BRYAN:
18
MR WOODWARD:
19
MR O’BRYAN:
20
MR WOODWARD:
21
MR O’BRYAN:
22
MR WOODWARD:
23
MR O’BRYAN:
24
MR WOODWARD:
25
MR O’BRYAN:
26
MR WOODWARD:
28
29
30
So he will be very, very brief, I think,
Commissioner - - -
17
27
Yes.
Right.
- - - as will Mr Bell, I understand.
Where does Mr Bell fit in?
He is the supplier of the office furniture.
Right.
He is the director of Premier Office Solutions.
So he will be fairly brief?
He will be very brief as well.
And then Mr Virtue.
And then Mr Virtue will probably take us to the
end of the day.
MR O’BRYAN:
Right.
Okay then.
Well, then, we will adjourn
until 1.30.
ADJOURNED
[12.24 pm]
1738
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
RESUMED
[1.31 pm]
2
MR O’BRYAN:
This examination is to be video recorded.
Please
3
commence the recording.
Today’s date is 19 May 2015, and
4
the time is 1.31 pm.
5
conducting this examination under powers delegated to me
6
by instrument dated 5 September 2013, a copy of which has
7
been already marked exhibit 1.
8
held and conducted under part 6 of the Independent Broad-
9
based Anti-corruption Commission Act 2011 as part of an
My name is Stephen O’Bryan.
This examination is being
10
investigation under part 3 of that Act.
11
you, just stay there for a minute, Mr Foley.
12
I am
Mr Foley?
Thank
I take this opportunity to draw your attention, Mr
13
Foley, to the fact that this examination is
14
inquisitorial.
15
rules of evidence, and that I can regulate the conduct of
16
the examination in such ways as I consider appropriate.
17
The examination is open to the public.
18
understand you’re not legal represented?
19
MR FOLEY:
20
MR O’BRYAN:
This means that I am not bound by the
M Foley, I
No.
No.
Would you please enter the witness box.
And
21
please be seated, Mr Foley.
22
delegated powers I now require you to take an oath or to
23
make an affirmation.
24
prefer?
25
affirming to tell the truth.
26
MR FOLEY:
27
MR O’BRYAN:
Mr Foley, pursuant to my
Which of those two options do you
Oath is swearing on the Bible.
Affirmation is
Affirmation.
Okay, but with the same consequences obviously in
28
terms of penalties if you were not to tell the truth.
29
Do you have a middle name?
30
MR FOLEY:
James.
1739
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
PETER JAMES FOLEY, AFFIRMED
2
MR O’BRYAN:
[1.33 pm]
Because this is an inquisitorial examination, Mr
3
Foley, the procedure differs from procedures which are
4
adversarial in nature, and of the kind you normally see
5
in the courts.
6
question you on matters relevant to the investigation and
7
I may also ask you some questions.
8
matters, I am required to advise you of the nature of the
9
matters in respect of which you are to be asked
Counsel assisting me, Mr Woodward, will
By way of preliminary
10
questions, and they are to give evidence before this
11
Commission in relation to your knowledge of matters the
12
subject of the scope and purpose described in the
13
preliminary information and directions for public
14
examinations in Operation Ord, a copy of which would have
15
been attached to your summons.
16
Now, you understand, I take it, that you have a right
17
to legal representation?
18
proceed without legal representation?
19
MR FOLEY:
20
MR O’BRYAN:
And I take it you’re content to
I am.
Thank you.
Now, did you receive with your
21
summons a document titled section 121(3)(c) Statement of
22
Rights and Obligations?
23
MR FOLEY:
24
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
And could you take out that document please?
25
Now, has any lawyer been through that document with you
26
prior to now?
27
MR FOLEY:
28
MR O’BRYAN:
No.
No, all right.
Well, then I am required by the
29
legislation to go through that document with you, and if
30
you have any queries about what’s in the document or
1740
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
P.J. FOLEY
1
don’t understand it, then if you could just let me know
2
and we will talk about that.
3
ignore because you have attended here, and on page 2 you
4
will see in the middle of the page under section 136,
5
almost – not quite in the middle.
6
MR FOLEY:
7
MR O’BRYAN:
Now, on page 1, we can
Yes, .....
“The person who is served with a summons to
8
attend an examination must not without reasonable excuse
9
refuse or fail to answer a question that you are required
10
to answer.”
11
don’t comply.
12
reference to making an affirmation;
13
that.
14
3, we have been through what’s on page 3, so that we can
15
go onto page 4.
16
you, so we will go to page 5 and we will just dwell on
17
that for a moment.
18
And you will see there are penalties if you
You see at the bottom of the page the
We can skip over the page.
well, you have done
Just looking at page
And nothing on page 4 is relevant to
At the top, “Privilege in an examination.
You may
19
claim a privilege, but you are not excused from answering
20
a question or giving information, or from producing a
21
document or other thing on the ground that the answer,
22
information, document or other thing may tend to
23
incriminate you or make you liable to a penalty.”
24
then it goes on to say in (i) that “although you are not
25
excused from answering a question or giving information,
26
or from producing a document or other thing in accordance
27
with a witness summons on the ground that the answer to
28
the question, the information or the production of the
29
document or other thing might tend to incriminate you or
30
make you liable to a penalty, any answer, information,
1741
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
And
P.J. FOLEY
1
document or thing that might tend to incriminate you or
2
make you liable to a penalty is not admissible in
3
evidence against you before any court or person acting
4
judicially, except I proceedings for (a) perjury or
5
giving false information”.
6
So that means if you were proven to be not telling
7
the truth here – knowingly not telling the truth, which
8
is perjury, “or an offence against the IBAC Act, offence
9
against the Victorian Inspectorate Act, an offence
10
against section 72 or 73 of the Protected Disclosure Act,
11
contempt of this Commission under the Act” – so that
12
essentially means playing up or misbehaving in the giving
13
of your evidence, “or a disciplinary process or action”,
14
and that would only apply to – effectively a public
15
servant, which I gather you are not.
16
MR FOLEY:
17
MR O’BRYAN:
Definitely not.
All right.
So importantly, the common law right
18
to – against self-incrimination is abrogated by our
19
statute, but significantly from your point of view if you
20
were to admit wrongdoing, it can’t normally be used
21
against you in a court of law;
you couldn’t be
22
prosecuted for it, you follow?
Now, (j) on page 6 talks
23
about statutory secrecy provisions which may apply, and
24
which might prevent someone from answering a question or
25
producing documents.
26
provisions that may apply in relation to you or the
27
matter at hand.
28
the relevant time.
29
the Victorian Inspectorate if you are unhappy about
30
anything that happens here, and you can see the basis on
I’m not aware of any secrecy
If you know of any, you can speak up at
You then have a right to complain to
1742
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
P.J. FOLEY
1
which you can make a complaint and what their
2
jurisdiction is and what their contact details are.
3
won’t go through that with you.
4
yourself, okay?
5
MR FOLEY:
6
MR O’BRYAN:
You can read that for
Have you read this document before?
Not in great detail, to be honest.
All right.
Okay.
Well, if you want to complain
7
that’s where you go.
8
you got any questions arising out of that?
9
10
So I
MR FOLEY:
All right, well, I think we – have
No.
MR O’BRYAN:
All right.
Thank you.
The important thing is if
11
you just answer questions truthfully and you can’t get
12
into much bother.
13
investigation involves a protected disclosure, I am
14
required to advise you of two matters under the Protected
15
Disclosures Act.
16
criminal offence if you disclose the content or
17
information about the content of the disclosure, should
18
you be aware of it.
19
committing a criminal offence if you disclose information
20
likely to lead to the identification of the person who
21
made the assessable disclosure, should you be aware of
22
that person.
23
Now, one final thing, because this
First, you would be committing a
Secondly, you would also be
You may disclose the content of that information to a
24
lawyer for the purposes of obtaining legal advice or
25
representation here, however even if you wanted to do
26
that subsequently, I am otherwise satisfied that the
27
limited exceptions which would allow such disclosure do
28
not apply in this case and I would not allow disclosure
29
for any other purpose;
30
examination will commence and I authorise Mr Woodward to
do you follow?
1743
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
Well, then the
P.J. FOLEY
1
2
examine you.
MR WOODWARD:
Mr Woodward.
Thank you, Commissioner.
3
Mr Foley, you have there in front of you, I think, copies
4
of the documents that were served on you and pursuant to
5
which you appear today.
6
MR FOLEY:
7
MR WOODWARD:
Correct, yes.
I’m going to have handed to you another copy,
8
because we don’t want to take your copy away from you,
9
and that should comprise the covering letter dated 13
10
March addressed to you and the second document is the
11
summons itself, number SE1400.
12
bundle?
13
MR FOLEY:
14
MR WOODWARD:
15
MR FOLEY:
16
MR WOODWARD:
17
Can you see that in the
Can you just identify that again, please?
The summons – witness summons number SE1400.
Yes.
And then there should be a confidentiality
notice.
18
MR FOLEY:
19
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
And then finally a copy of the Statement of
20
Rights and Obligations that the Commissioner took you
21
through a moment ago.
22
MR FOLEY:
23
MR WOODWARD:
24
25
26
Yes.
And those are the copies of the documents you
received.
MR O’BRYAN:
I will tender those, please, Commissioner.
Yes.
Well, that bundle will be marked exhibit
149.
27
EXHIBIT #149 BUNDLE OF DOCUMENTS
28
MR WOODWARD:
29
30
Mr Foley, you’re an acquaintance of Mr Jeffrey
Rosewarne?
MR FOLEY:
Not presently though, no.
1744
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
P.J. FOLEY
1
MR WOODWARD:
2
MR FOLEY:
3
MR WOODWARD:
4
MR FOLEY:
6
MR WOODWARD:
7
MR FOLEY:
9
11
MR WOODWARD:
MR FOLEY:
14
MR WOODWARD:
15
MR FOLEY:
16
MR WOODWARD:
19
20
21
MR FOLEY:
At what school?
Murrumbeena Primary School.
And you had some dealings with Mr Rosewarne over
Not ’07.
’08 and ’09?
’08 and ’09.
Right.
When was the last time you spoke to Mr
At least five years ago.
MR WOODWARD:
Possibly that last event
Have – has he attempted to contact you at any
time more recently?
23
MR WOODWARD:
No, he hasn’t.
And you’ve not either met with him or spoken to
him on the phone or - - -
25
MR FOLEY:
26
MR WOODWARD:
No.
I don’t – I have not even seen him.
Okay.
What about an email exchange, have you
had any of those with him?
28
MR FOLEY:
29
MR WOODWARD:
30
And schoolmates.
six years ago.
MR FOLEY:
27
Both his daughter and my daughter were friends and
Rosewarne?
22
24
And in what context did you come to know him?
– particularly in 2007 and ’08?
13
18
When did you first come to know Mr
About 10 years ago.
MR WOODWARD:
MR FOLEY:
17
Yes.
schoolmates.
10
12
I know Jeff Rosewarne, yes.
Rosewarne?
5
8
Well, he is someone known to you?
No email exchanges, nothing.
The dealings that we’re referring to – perhaps I
should ask you, Mr Foley, at the time you first were
1745
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
P.J. FOLEY
1
dealing with Mr Rosewarne in relation to the functions
2
which we will talk about in a moment, what was your job?
3
MR FOLEY:
I was – I essentially had a sales rep job, but I
4
was operating this – I just commenced operating these
5
events kind of – I was running a music gig at the
6
Oakleigh Bowling Club which I had been doing prior to the
7
discussions with Mr Rosewarne for about a year - - -
8
MR WOODWARD:
9
MR FOLEY:
10
11
12
13
Okay.
- - - and on about a weekly basis I had been doing
things there.
MR WOODWARD:
So you were running – or organising and running
- - MR FOLEY:
Predominantly just straight music gigs.
You know,
14
I would hire a band and then invite people to buy a
15
ticket and we would – and there would be a show.
16
you know, specifically sort of events as such.
17
I did some community-based events, you know, just for the
18
– with the bowling club involved;
19
and bar.
20
Mr Rosewarne did attend those and that was ..... of the
21
idea that, you know - - -
22
23
24
MR WOODWARD:
You know,
you know, bowls, band
It would be that kind of scenario and perhaps
The bowling club was essentially just the venue
you used;
MR FOLEY:
Not,
is that right?
Yes, yes.
I just – I kind of had an exclusive sort
25
of right – it was all – at that stage, it was all very
26
organic, and it was just a community-based thing that I
27
had started two or three years previously in my home, and
28
then we just progressed to doing gigs at the bowling club
29
and I had a sort of an agreement with the bowling club
30
that all entertainment – all that type of activity would
1746
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
P.J. FOLEY
1
be conducted by me.
2
MR WOODWARD:
3
MR FOLEY:
4
MR WOODWARD:
5
It was pretty organic and loose at that stage.
MR FOLEY:
7
MR WOODWARD:
8
MR FOLEY:
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
Yes.
Mr Rosewarne spoke to you in 2008 about
holding a function there?
6
9
Now - - -
Correct.
Yes.
He approached me by email, yes.
And what did he say to you in the email?
I have a copy of it here, but they were thinking of
organising a Christmas party I think for his – his
workplace.
MR WOODWARD:
And did you come to some arrangement at that
stage about how it was to be paid for?
MR FOLEY:
Not initially.
It was not discussed in the initial
stages.
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
So what then occurred in relation to
organising that event?
MR FOLEY:
Well, yes, we settled on a date and – I’m just –
18
it’s a long time ago.
19
then he kind of basically – he wanted – he got a vague
20
idea of costings from me, and then he sort of dictated,
21
you know, what the costings would be, you know, but what
22
he – he thought was an amount and – you’ve got to –
23
you’ve got to – I mean, the context was a – it was a
24
little bit organic and, you know, the gig.
25
have something like that occur there, it was sort of good
26
for the bowling club.
27
This was seven years ago.
And
And for me to
And we just wanted stuff to happen, you know,
28
activities to happen.
So it was not seen as a – as a
29
real commercial activity.
30
you know, like a – as a favour to Jeff who – I wasn’t a
It was just almost like a –
1747
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
P.J. FOLEY
1
close friend.
2
And I thought it would just be nice to have this kind of
3
stuff coming into the bowling club.
4
to save a struggling bowling club at that stage and – and
5
I think it has to be remembered in that context of, you
6
know - - -
7
MR WOODWARD:
8
MR FOLEY:
9
I knew him but I wasn’t a close friend.
We were just trying
And was - - So – and so – and he – and he – I think in the
email correspondence – I’m doing this from memory.
I
10
have got it in front of me here but he sort of – he sort
11
of almost stated the – I told him what the band would
12
cost and what this and – what the bowls would cost.
13
he had got some rough costings and he initiated the –
14
what he thought was an appropriate amount.
15
MR WOODWARD:
And
Yes.
And what instruction, or what did he say to you
16
about arranging payment to you of that amount that he had
17
come up with?
18
MR FOLEY:
That – that wasn’t initial conversations.
That was
19
a little bit later, a bit closer to it.
20
advised me what they had kind of allocated, what he kind
21
of sort of allocated and initiated.
22
before the event to invoice Brighton Primary School.
23
MR WOODWARD:
24
MR FOLEY:
25
MR WOODWARD:
26
27
28
29
30
And then he – he
Then he asked me
He asked you to invoice Brighton Primary School.
Mmm.
Did he give you any other instructions about
that?
MR FOLEY:
He told – you know, the invoice – he dictated the –
the wording on the invoice, yes.
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
On whose letterhead, or what letterhead
did you send the invoice to Brighton - - 1748
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
P.J. FOLEY
1
MR FOLEY:
As I – at that stage I was in transition between
2
businesses.
3
was my – a previous business I had, and I was just using
4
that account to – because this was in the infancy of this
5
business.
6
but at that stage it was the infancy.
7
a business account I had and just had to – if I had to
8
run an invoice – because none of our gigs prior to that
9
were sort of invoice scenarios.
10
11
It was Arteriors Décor Installations which
It has since grown to be quite a big business,
And so it was just
They were just – and so
I just used my business account to - - MR WOODWARD:
Okay.
And Mr Rosewarne didn’t have any input
12
into the type of – the business you chose to use to put –
13
send the invoice from?
14
MR FOLEY:
No, absolutely no involvement.
15
MR WOODWARD:
Could we go to page 126, please, of book 1 of
16
the main book.
17
see there an invoice Arteriors Decor Installations - - -
18
MR FOLEY:
19
MR WOODWARD:
This is exhibit 12, Commissioner.
Do you
Yes.
- - - to Brighton Primary School.
Description
20
there, Mr Foley – the description you’ve used there,
21
where did that come from?
22
23
24
25
MR FOLEY:
That was – that was dictated to me by Jeffrey –
Jeff Rosewarne.
MR WOODWARD:
So “Goods and services supplied during
the month of December” were the words that he gave you.
26
MR FOLEY:
27
MR WOODWARD:
28
Right.
Correct.
And he also, as I understand it, instructed you
to send it to Brighton Primary School.
29
MR FOLEY:
30
MR WOODWARD:
Correct.
Did you think either of those things a bit
1749
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
P.J. FOLEY
1
2
3
strange, Mr Foley?
MR FOLEY:
I did.
I did think it was a bit odd but I thought,
being aware of his position, I thought this - - -
4
MR WOODWARD:
5
MR FOLEY:
What did you understand his position to be?
I thought – my – a position which I think – I don’t
6
think I’m quite accurate, was that he was the head of the
7
department and I think – I’ve subsequently realised he
8
was the acting head of the department or secretary.
9
not being familiar with that world, that was my
But
10
understanding of his position.
11
that this is some kind of process that operated within
12
that world.
13
ever worked in the public sector.
14
in the private sector.
15
16
MR WOODWARD:
So I kind of accepted
A world I’m not familiar with.
Right.
I’ve not
I’ve only ever worked
The – so you knew he didn’t work at the
Brighton Primary School.
17
MR FOLEY:
18
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
Yes.
And what about the description itself,
19
that doesn’t give a very clear idea of what actually –
20
the work that was being done – or the service you were
21
providing, does it?
22
MR FOLEY:
23
MR WOODWARD:
24
25
26
27
28
No, it doesn’t.
And, again, is that something you thought was
unusual?
MR FOLEY:
I thought it was unusual but I deferred to his
position and his authority.
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
Did you ask him why you were being asked to use
that description?
29
MR FOLEY:
30
MR WOODWARD:
No, I did not.
No.
The – that account was paid?
1750
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
P.J. FOLEY
1
MR FOLEY:
2
MR WOODWARD:
3
MR FOLEY:
5
MR WOODWARD:
7
Yes.
And you arranged various aspects of the
function.
4
6
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
And that included arranging finger food, I
think, Mr Foley.
MR FOLEY:
Yes, the finger food – he – he put me in touch with
8
the company supplying the finger food which was Fabulous
9
Finger Food, I think.
10
MR WOODWARD:
Can I bring up page 123, please.
I’m not sure
11
whether this has already been exhibited. It’s part of 12
12
also.
13
December.
14
that you paid in respect of the function?
15
16
MR FOLEY:
MR WOODWARD:
18
MR FOLEY:
19
MR WOODWARD:
20
MR FOLEY:
MR WOODWARD:
23
MR FOLEY:
24
MR WOODWARD:
Just – if you go right to the bottom, it was – I
Yes, okay.
Which I paid by credit card on the phone.
And - - And that was factored into that total figure of
That amount.
Yes.
It was a component of that figure.
All right.
Now, you then arranged another
function a year – about a year later, didn’t you?
26
MR FOLEY:
27
MR WOODWARD:
28
Is that the invoice
- - -
22
25
If we just scroll down.
know the amount was, yes, 1922.45.
17
21
So that is an invoice from Fabulous Finger Food, 8
Correct, yes.
Had you had much dealings with Mr Rosewarne in
the meantime, between the two functions?
29
MR FOLEY:
30
MR WOODWARD:
Not – not – not that I recall.
And, again, can you tell us, please, Mr Foley,
1751
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
P.J. FOLEY
1
2
how that function was arranged?
MR FOLEY:
Similarly, he – he approached me and said, well –
3
you know, they were very happy with the way the previous
4
one had gone.
5
but he was happy and – and so we – we went down the same
6
road.
7
with the quality of the catering the previous year so he
8
had initiated the idea of his wife doing the catering for
9
that one.
10
MR WOODWARD:
11
MR FOLEY:
I wasn’t.
I didn’t make any money but –
But I got – there was a lot of dissatisfaction
He initiated that with you.
Yes.
Well, I – it was out – kind of out of my
12
control.
13
ultimately it was – involved me because I ultimately paid
14
it.
15
16
17
18
MR WOODWARD:
He just organised that independent of me.
So the finger food the year before was not so
fabulous, apparently.
MR FOLEY:
No, it was not so fabulous but I – I didn’t want to
- - -
19
MR WOODWARD:
20
MR FOLEY:
21
MR WOODWARD:
Could we go to page 274, please.
Yes, that looks bad.
So this – this email at least, Mr Foley, has
22
come from an email address swanslegend@hotmail.com.
23
you know that to be Mr Rosewarne’s address, email
24
address?
25
MR FOLEY:
26
MR WOODWARD:
27
MR FOLEY:
28
MR WOODWARD:
29
30
But
Did
Yes.
Yes.
And to you at peterfoley59@hotmail.
Yes.
The email commences “Pete, hello, my new best
mate, similar to last year”, etcetera.
MR FOLEY:
Mmm.
1752
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
P.J. FOLEY
1
2
3
4
MR WOODWARD:
It would suggest that you had perhaps had some
dealing with him just prior to that email being sent.
MR FOLEY:
I think the relevant word there is “new”.
It
wasn’t a long association or mate.
5
MR WOODWARD:
6
MR FOLEY:
Right.
It was almost like a – making fun of it because
7
that’s not my normal way of speaking or anything.
8
know that looks bad.
9
accurate reflection of the relationship, I can tell you.
10
MR WOODWARD:
Right.
So I
It’s not – it’s not a – it’s not an
And the email otherwise speaks for
11
itself.
12
identifying, effectively for you, what he thinks it will
13
cost.
14
MR FOLEY:
15
MR WOODWARD:
Again, it seems that Mr Rosewarne is
That’s right.
Yes.
If we scroll down, you will see “My rough, in
16
regard to” – well, firstly, he has identified some wines
17
that he wants supplied:
18
In regard funding, my rough numbers are, Chris and
19
mates, and staging, etcetera –
20
21
22
23
24
was that the music?
MR FOLEY:
Yes, and the – and the production and all those –
all those aspects of putting that on.
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
And catering you said he was arranging for
his wife to do this time.
25
MR FOLEY:
26
MR WOODWARD:
That’s right.
Yes.
And then if we go down the page is set out
27
the amount and his “invoice by email back to JR”.
28
has asked you to send the invoice to him by email?
29
MR FOLEY:
30
MR WOODWARD:
So he
Yes, I – yes.
And address it to Moonee Ponds West Primary
1753
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
P.J. FOLEY
1
School.
2
MR FOLEY:
3
MR WOODWARD:
Correct.
Again, was there any aspect of the billing at
4
Moonee Ponds that he discussed with you or explained to
5
you that time?
6
MR FOLEY:
7
MR WOODWARD:
8
9
10
No, he didn’t.
And apart from thinking it a little bit unusual,
you didn’t raise any questions with him?
MR FOLEY:
No, I didn’t.
MR WOODWARD:
And the – what was to appear on the invoice, is
11
that – is that what you understood that invoice for
12
“event management services for various DECD events during
13
November ’09”, did you understand that to be what he was
14
instructing you to put on the invoice?
15
16
17
18
19
20
MR FOLEY:
Yes.
I just, you know, pasted it verbatim.
put it straight across.
MR WOODWARD:
Again, that was not an accurate description of
the services you were providing, was it?
MR FOLEY:
No, there was one single event, not multiple
events.
21
MR WOODWARD:
22
MR FOLEY:
23
MR WOODWARD:
And it wasn’t in November either, was it?
No, it wasn’t.
No.
And did you have any – did Mr Rosewarne explain
24
to you why he wanted you to provide that inaccurate
25
description of the - - -
26
MR FOLEY:
27
MR WOODWARD:
28
MR FOLEY:
29
MR WOODWARD:
30
I just
No, he didn’t.
And you didn’t ask him?
I didn’t ask him.
If we then go to page – I don’t know whether
this is – exhibit 19.
If we then go to page 275, this is
1754
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
P.J. FOLEY
1
a further email that you’ve sent to Mr Rosewarne.
2
MR FOLEY:
3
MR WOODWARD:
4
MR FOLEY:
5
MR WOODWARD:
6
MR FOLEY:
Yes.
A bit later in the day.
Yes.
Again, I take it you would say - - Well, that was kind of response to what – his sort
7
of greeting which is not characteristic of the
8
relationship again, I must reiterate that.
9
10
MR WOODWARD:
MR FOLEY:
All right.
It was just like – it’s almost making fun of that
11
kind of approach because it’s not a usual approach that I
12
use.
13
14
MR WOODWARD:
go to page 276.
15
MR FOLEY:
16
MR WOODWARD:
17
MR FOLEY:
19
MR WOODWARD:
20
MR FOLEY:
21
MR WOODWARD:
23
Yes.
That’s the invoice that you sent with a
description as instructed.
18
22
And the document attached to that, if we could
Yes.
And that was paid.
Yes.
How did you arrange to pay for the catering?
you recall?
MR FOLEY:
Well, this area I’m a bit vague.
I’m not being coy
24
or – or evasive.
25
I paid Anne Rosewarne via ..... 21 – $2104 which was
26
basically what was left over after my costs and my very
27
humble profit – that was what was left over.
28
MR WOODWARD:
29
MR FOLEY:
30
Do
I’m just – it was six years ago but I –
Right.
So it was almost left to – what was left.
I know
it’s a very unorthodox and doesn’t look good, I
1755
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
P.J. FOLEY
1
appreciate that, but that was essentially the situation
2
after all – all of the costs of my staff and staging –
3
production hire, that was kind of what was left so that’s
4
– that’s sort of what – that’s what ended up in – in the
5
catering.
6
7
MR WOODWARD:
And you arranged for that amount to be
transferred by - - -
8
MR FOLEY:
9
MR WOODWARD:
10
Right.
MR FOLEY:
I transferred that in January.
- - - to Anne Rosewarne.
Yes.
After I paid everybody else, I – that – that
11
was the amount that was left and I paid that to her.
12
tell you what, I – I’m sorry, I’m not sure what account I
13
paid it to but that was the account that I was instructed
14
to pay.
15
MR O’BRYAN:
16
MR FOLEY:
Who were you instructed by?
Possibly by Mr Rosewarne but I don’t recall exactly
17
but that was – that’s where the money was directed.
18
contacted me in January and said, “Can you just send
19
whatever the surplus amount is to - - -
20
MR WOODWARD:
21
MR FOLEY:
22
MR WOODWARD:
23
MR FOLEY:
24
25
I
He
To an account.
To an account, yes.
And he gave you those account - - And I’m not sure what the account was but that’s
what I send it to.
MR WOODWARD:
Okay.
Can we go please to page 874.
Now, this
26
is a document that you prepared more recently, Mr Foley,
27
setting out the – a breakdown of the two accounts that
28
you sent for – or you charged for those two events.
29
MR FOLEY:
30
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
So the first relates to the event in 2008, as
1756
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
P.J. FOLEY
1
you’ve indicated.
2
MR FOLEY:
3
MR WOODWARD:
4
MR FOLEY:
5
MR WOODWARD:
6
MR FOLEY:
8
MR WOODWARD:
10
The various amounts that you paid out of that.
Yes.
And then if we go down the page, we will see a
similar breakdown for the second event.
7
9
Yes.
Correct.
And that confirms that you sent $2104 to an
account given to you by Mr Rosewarne and you assumed it
was for the catering provided by Anne Rosewarne.
11
MR FOLEY:
12
MR WOODWARD:
Correct.
Yes.
And you say the first event you made
13
virtually no profit after paying all your costs and
14
expenses but you made a modest - - -
15
MR FOLEY:
I think I may have even lost a bit but I was kind
16
of at that stage just trying to generate activity for the
17
bowling club.
18
19
20
MR WOODWARD:
Yes.
And the second event, however, you made a
modest - - MR FOLEY:
Yes.
I – I – I said it had to be a bit more if I
21
was going to do it again just to – again, it was all very
22
loose and unorthodox and I’m prepared to accept that.
23
Yes.
24
MR WOODWARD:
25
MR FOLEY:
And - - Because it seemed like I had to be paid in advance.
26
You can’t predict how much people are going to drink or –
27
and, in fact, I think the second – the second time, it –
28
it wasn’t a successful an event and I don’t think – and
29
people kind of left early so I assumed they didn’t
30
consume as much and I don’t know – I don’t – yes.
1757
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
I – I
P.J. FOLEY
1
can’t – I can only vaguely recollect that part.
2
MR WOODWARD:
3
MR FOLEY:
4
MR WOODWARD:
5
MR FOLEY:
7
MR WOODWARD:
8
MR FOLEY:
9
MR WOODWARD:
11
Yes.
Yes.
And about how many people were at the two
events?
6
10
How many people from – were you at each event?
MR FOLEY:
About 60 or 70, from memory.
Yes.
They got bussed in.
By one bus?
Yes, I think – no, they wouldn’t have got that many
in one bus, would they?
12
MR WOODWARD:
13
MR FOLEY:
Probably not.
There may have been less then.
I just assumed – I
14
– I wasn’t really focused on how they got there but there
15
was a bus arriving each time – each time.
16
MR WOODWARD:
And the second account which we’ve actually gone
17
past, that was to Moonee Ponds West Primary School.
18
you recall - - -
19
MR FOLEY:
20
MR WOODWARD:
Do
Yes.
Yes.
Yes, that’s all I have.
Thanks, Mr Foley.
21
I will just exhibit, if I may, Commissioner, page 874 of
22
the book.
23
MR O’BRYAN:
24
MR WOODWARD:
25
MR O’BRYAN:
26
MR WOODWARD:
27
MR O’BRYAN:
28
EXHIBIT #150 PAGE 874 OF BOOK 1
29
MR O’BRYAN:
30
Of book 1?
Yes, it is book – yes, it’s book 1.
Yes, book 1.
So book 1, page 174 - - -
874, Commissioner.
I’m sorry, 874.
Will be marked exhibit 150.
Well, we can’t excuse Mr Foley at the moment
because of the possibility of cross-examination.
1758
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
P.J. FOLEY
1
Otherwise, I take it it’s unlikely you would want to have
2
Mr Foley recalled.
3
MR WOODWARD:
4
MR O’BRYAN:
Highly unlikely, Commissioner.
Highly unlikely.
Yes.
Mr Foley, I can’t fully excuse
5
you from your summons at the moment because all
6
represented parties have the ability to apply to cross-
7
examine witnesses and so that pertains to you as well.
8
Although I have to say I understand nobody has yet so
9
applied and it may not happen and even if someone does
10
apply, I still – they would still need leave from me to
11
cross-examine if I think it’s appropriate.
12
And so, we can’t – that’s why I can’t say at the
13
moment you’re excused because of that possibility,
14
otherwise I think I can say it’s unlikely you will be
15
needed back.
16
say to you that your examination may need to be continued
17
at a later date and is therefore adjourned to a date and
18
time to be fixed.
19
summons and confidentiality notice you’ve received.
20
So that all I can do at the moment is to
And that you remain bound by the
You will of course be advised in writing if you are
21
required back and of the date and time and you will
22
equally be advised in writing if you’re no longer
23
required.
24
more you want to say at the moment?
25
“no” audibly for the transcript.
26
MR FOLEY:
27
MR O’BRYAN:
Just pausing there, I take it there’s nothing
No?
If you just say
No.
Thank you.
Well then, the time now is 2.02 pm so
28
please stop the recording and you’re free now to leave
29
the witness box, Mr Foley.
30
assistance.
Thank you for your
1759
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
P.J. FOLEY
1
THE WITNESS WITHDREW
[2.02 pm]
1760
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
P.J. FOLEY
1
2
MR O’BRYAN:
Now, the next witness, Mr Bell, does he need to
be called?
3
MR HILL:
Mr Bell.
4
MR MAITLAND:
5
.....
6
MR O’BRYAN:
7
.....
And he’s - - Mr Bell is out the front of the court
He’s out the front of the court.
All right.
So
not far away.
8
MR HILL:
No, your Honour – Commissioner.
9
MR O’BRYAN:
10
MR BELL:
11
MR O’BRYAN:
.....
Are you Mr Bell?
Yes.
Mr Bell, would you please just take a seat there
12
for a minute and I will call you into the witness box
13
shortly and I understand – is it Mr Maitland representing
14
Mr Bell?
15
MR MAITLAND:
16
MR O’BRYAN:
17
Yes.
And, Mr Maitland, would you like to take a seat
at the bar table.
18
MR MAITLAND:
19
MR O’BRYAN:
Sure.
This examination is to be video recorded.
Please
20
commence the recording.
21
the time is 2.04 pm.
22
conducting this examination under powers delegated to me
23
by instrument dated 5 September 2013, a copy of which has
24
already been marked as exhibit 1 in this investigation.
25
This examination is being held and conducted under part 6
26
of the Independent Broad-based Anti-corruption Commission
27
Act 2011 as part of an investigation under part 3 of that
28
Act.
29
30
Today’s date is 19 May 2015 and
My name is Stephen O’Bryan.
I’m
I take this opportunity to draw your attention, Mr
Bell and to your legal representative that this
1761
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
examination is inquisitorial which means that I am not
2
bound by the rules of evidence and that I can regulate
3
the conduct of the examination in such ways as I consider
4
appropriate.
5
The examination is open to the public.
Mr Bell, you may be represented by Mr Maitland,
6
however the IBAC Act gives me the power to review that
7
decision in certain circumstances, and, Mr Maitland, you
8
will be given an opportunity at the conclusion of the
9
examination to ask your client any questions you feel
10
could clarify any answers he gives or to make a statement
11
or submission on his behalf relevant to the investigation
12
should you wish to and at an appropriate time which we
13
can discuss afterwards.
14
Mr Maitland, I’m required to inform you as Mr Bell’s
15
legal representative of certain nondisclosure
16
requirements which apply to you pursuant to subsections
17
130(1)(d) and 44(2)(b) of the IBAC Act, namely, you may
18
not disclose the restricted matters specified in the
19
confidentiality notice received by your client and dated
20
13 March 2015 to any other person while the notice has
21
effect.
22
To do so is a criminal offence.
You may disclose the restricted matters specified in
23
the confidentiality notice in accordance with the
24
direction or authorisation given by me or another
25
appropriately qualified IBAC officer, or the purposes of
26
complying with a legal duty of disclosure, or a
27
professional obligation arising from your professional
28
representation.
29
enter the witness box.
30
MR BELL:
I would ask you now, Mr Bell, to please
And please be seated, Mr Bell.
Sure.
1762
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
MR O’BRYAN:
Mr Bell, pursuant to my delegated powers I now
2
require you to either take an oath or to make an
3
affirmation.
4
MR BELL:
5
MR O’BRYAN:
6
Which of those two options to you prefer?
An oath.
Could you – the Bible is down on the left there,
below you.
7
RICHARD ANDREW BELL, SWORN
8
MR O’BRYAN:
9
Thank you.
[2.05 pm]
You can replace the Bible, Mr Bell.
Because this is an inquisitorial examination the
10
procedure differs from procedures which are adversarial
11
in nature and of the kind you normally see in the courts.
12
Counsel assisting me, Mr Hill, will question you on
13
matters relevant to the subject matter of the
14
investigation, and I may also ask you some questions.
15
And when Mr Hill has concluded his questioning, as you
16
have heard, should Mr Maitland want to, he will at an
17
appropriate stage be extended an opportunity to ask you
18
questions or to say something on your behalf relevant to
19
the matters you are examined on.
20
I am required to raise some other preliminary matters
21
with you.
Firstly, to advise you of the nature of the
22
matters in respect of which you are to be asked
23
questions.
24
Commission in relation to your knowledge of matters the
25
subject of the scope and purpose described in the
26
preliminary information and directions for public
27
examinations in Operation Ord, which – a copy of which
28
would be attached to your summons, or would have been.
29
Mr Bell, at the time you served with that summons did you
30
receive a document titled section 121(3)(c) Statement of
They are to give evidence before this
1763
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
R.A. BELL
1
Rights and Obligations?
2
MR BELL:
Yes.
3
MR O’BRYAN:
And prior to this examination has Mr Maitland or
4
another lawyer been through that document with you and
5
explained it to you?
6
MR BELL:
7
MR O’BRYAN:
8
MR BELL:
9
MR O’BRYAN:
10
11
12
Not explained it to me, no.
No.
MR MAITLAND:
Mr Maitland, you have been through
I have briefly explained what is in the
document, and his rights and obligations .....
MR BELL:
14
MR O’BRYAN:
Sorry, I have just misunderstood.
All right.
MR BELL:
17
MR O’BRYAN:
Well, let’s have a look at the
It’s in regard to what, sorry?
No, well, let’s get out the document.
MR BELL:
20
MR O’BRYAN:
21
MR BELL:
22
MR O’BRYAN:
I don’t have the - - You don’t have that?
- - - summons .....
Well, I will have handed to you a copy of the
23
Statement of Rights and Obligations.
24
a copy of the document you received?
25
MR BELL:
26
MR O’BRYAN:
Does that look like
Yes.
Before consulting Mr Maitland, did you yourself
read through the document?
28
MR BELL:
29
MR O’BRYAN:
30
So can you
please get out of your bundle there - - -
19
27
Sorry.
document, just so that we’re clear.
16
18
They haven’t?
the document?
13
15
They have been through it with you?
I have.
Yes.
All right.
Sorry, I misunderstood.
Now, do you now recall that Mr
Maitland went through the document with you?
1764
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
R.A. BELL
1
MR BELL:
2
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes, briefly.
Okay.
Yes.
Well, just to be clear, you understand
3
that you are required to answer questions here unless you
4
have a reasonable excuse not to.
5
MR BELL:
6
MR O’BRYAN:
Sure.
You follow?
And do you understand that the –
7
what’s called the common law right against self-
8
incrimination, that is basically admitting that you have
9
done something wrong in terms of a criminal act - - -
10
MR BELL:
11
MR O’BRYAN:
Sure.
Yes.
- - - is what lawyers call abrogated, which means
12
you can’t rely on that as an excuse not to answer
13
questions.
14
MR BELL:
15
MR O’BRYAN:
Do you understand that?
No, I was explained that.
Okay.
And you understand that the protection you
16
get in return is that any admissions you make that might
17
incriminate you can’t be used against you in a court of
18
law - - -
19
MR BELL:
20
MR O’BRYAN:
Sure.
Yes, I am aware of that.
Yes.
- - - in a prosecution against you, with some
21
exceptions.
22
for perjury;
23
knowingly telling lies here, and that your answers here
24
could be used against you for that purpose.
25
understand that?
26
MR BELL:
27
MR O’BRYAN:
And one exception – important exception is
if you – you could be put on trial for
Yes, I do.
Well, then – and you can look at the document if
28
you want to.
29
of the document?
30
MR BELL:
Do you
Do you have any other queries arising out
No.
1765
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
R.A. BELL
1
2
MR O’BRYAN:
No.
All right, then.
You’re satisfied, Mr
Maitland, that your client is otherwise - - -
3
MR MAITLAND:
4
MR O’BRYAN:
5
MR MAITLAND:
6
MR O’BRYAN:
I – yes, I am - - Seems to have understood the critical features.
Yes, I am, Commissioner.
Thank you.
Yes.
Now, another preliminary matter is
7
this – this is the final preliminary matter for both you,
8
Mr Bell and you, Mr Maitland.
9
involves a protected disclosure, I am required under the
10
Protected Disclosures Act to advise you of two matters.
11
First, you would be committing a criminal offence if you
12
disclose the content or information about the content of
13
the disclosure.
14
criminal offence if you disclose information likely to
15
lead to the identification of the person who made the
16
assessable disclosure, and this of course assumes you
17
know that – which you may not.
18
Because this investigation
Secondly, you would also be committing a
Mr Bell, you may disclose the content, or information
19
about the content of the protected disclosure to Mr
20
Maitland, should you know it, for the purpose of
21
obtaining legal advice, or as part of your representation
22
here.
23
exceptions which would allow such a disclosure do not
24
apply in this case, and I do not allow disclosure for any
25
other purpose.
26
disclose such information for the purposes of complying
27
with a legal duty of disclosure, or a professional
28
obligation arising from your professional relationship
29
with your client.
30
examination will commence, and I authorise Mr Hill to
I am otherwise satisfied that the limited
And for your part, Mr Maitland, you may
You follow?
Well, then the
1766
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
R.A. BELL
1
2
3
conduct it.
MR HILL:
Mr Hill.
Thank you, Commissioner.
Mr Bell, is your full name
Richard Andrew Bell?
4
MR BELL:
Yes.
5
MR HILL:
And do you attend here today in response to a
6
summons that was served upon you?
7
MR BELL:
Yes.
8
MR HILL:
And I will have handed to you three other documents
9
10
to go with the one that you have already got.
Was the
summons that was served upon you numbered SE1389?
11
MR BELL:
Yes.
12
MR HILL:
And with that summons you received a confidentiality
13
notice dated 13 March 2015.
Is that so?
14
MR BELL:
Yes.
15
MR HILL:
And with the summons you also received a document,
16
as you have said, titled section 121(3)(c) Statement of
17
Rights and Obligations?
18
MR BELL:
Mmm.
19
MR HILL:
And with the summons you received a covering letter
20
dated also 13 March 2015?
21
MR BELL:
Correct.
22
MR HILL:
And the documents that we have handed to you today
23
Yes.
appear to be copies of the documents that you received?
24
MR BELL:
Yes, they do.
25
MR HILL:
I now tender those four documents.
26
MR O’BRYAN:
27
EXHIBIT #151 SUMMONS SE1389, CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE, STATEMENT
28
OF RIGHTS AND OBLIGATIONS AND COVERING LETTER DATED
29
13/03/2015.
30
MR HILL:
Yes.
Exhibit 151.
Mr Bell, as we understand it, you are a director of
1767
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
R.A. BELL
1
Premier Office Solutions?
2
MR BELL:
Correct.
3
MR HILL:
And you, together with one other director trade as a
4
member of the Office National Group?
5
MR BELL:
Correct.
6
MR HILL:
And Office National supplies office stationary,
7
Yes.
office furniture and the like to the public?
8
MR BELL:
Correct.
9
MR HILL:
And for how long has the company been in operation
10
for now?
11
MR BELL:
September 1999, so coming up to 16 years.
12
MR HILL:
Just turn those documents over so they don’t
13
distract you.
14
MR BELL:
Sorry.
15
MR HILL:
And do you know a man by the name of Mr Jeffrey
16
Sorry.
Rosewarne?
17
MR BELL:
Yes, I do.
18
MR HILL:
How long have you known him for?
19
MR BELL:
Twenty – I suppose 25 years I - - -
20
MR HILL:
And what has been the nature of your relationship
21
22
23
over that 25 years?
MR BELL:
Jeff’s wife worked – excuse me.
Jeff’s wife worked
with my wife.
24
MR HILL:
Just keep your voice up a little bit.
25
MR BELL:
Sorry.
26
MR HILL:
Have a drink of water.
27
MR BELL:
Yes, sorry.
28
MR HILL:
Yes.
29
MR BELL:
And I wasn’t even married at that – we weren’t
30
Jeff’s wife - - -
Jeff’s wife worked with my wife.
married at this stage, and I just met them socially.
1768
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
R.A. BELL
1
2
3
4
5
That was it.
MR HILL:
How did – how long did your wife-to-be and Mrs
Rosewarne work together for?
MR BELL:
No, they didn’t work together.
No, no, no.
Jeff’s
wife and my wife worked together.
6
MR HILL:
I see.
7
MR BELL:
Yes, just a – it was a few – it was, I don’t know,
8
three or four years, they worked at a building at the top
9
of Collins Street.
10
11
12
MR HILL:
And as a result of that, did you commence a
friendship with Mr Rosewarne?
MR BELL:
Well, it was – initially it wasn’t.
As I said, it
13
was – I met Jeff through the odd occasion that we would
14
see them as a couple.
15
MR HILL:
Yes.
16
MR BELL:
Two or three times a year.
17
MR HILL:
And did that remain the situation throughout the 25
18
19
years?
MR BELL:
Yes.
Yes, it did.
There was a time where we didn’t
20
see them for a number of years, because I think Jeff was
21
transferred somewhere else up the bush, so were – there
22
were a number of years where we didn’t see them.
23
24
MR HILL:
Through Mr Rosewarne, did you meet a man by the name
of Nino Napoli?
25
MR BELL:
Yes, I did.
26
MR HILL:
How long ago approximately?
27
MR BELL:
20 years.
28
MR HILL:
Sorry?
29
MR BELL:
Maybe 20 years.
30
MR HILL:
Yes.
And did you get to know Mr Napoli?
1769
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
R.A. BELL
1
MR BELL:
Not really.
2
house.
3
stuff, so.
4
5
MR HILL:
Only at social functions at Jeff’s
Major things like 40ths, 21sts, all that sort of
Right.
So you got to meet Mr Napoli at Mr
Rosewarne’s house - - -
6
MR BELL:
Yes.
7
MR HILL:
- - - at functions that were being put on by Mr
8
Rosewarne?
9
MR BELL:
Yes.
10
MR HILL:
And other than birthdays, what other types of
11
functions?
12
MR BELL:
That’s pretty much it.
13
MR HILL:
Yes.
14
How many of those functions would there have
been?
15
MR BELL:
I don’t know.
16
MR HILL:
Yes.
17
18
19
Half a dozen.
And did you understand that Mr Napoli worked
for Mr Rosewarne - - MR BELL:
I knew he worked with him.
for him.
20
MR HILL:
- - - or with him?
21
MR BELL:
I wasn’t sure.
22
MR HILL:
Yes.
23
24
I didn’t know he worked
Did you meet any other people at those
functions that worked with Mr Rosewarne?
MR BELL:
Possibly, but I don’t – I never discussed work, so I
25
wouldn’t know what their roles were or where they worked.
26
I mean, these were people I may have even been introduced
27
to, but I don’t know, you know – I didn’t know where they
28
worked, to be honest, no.
29
MR HILL:
Right.
So - - -
30
MR BELL:
But as I said, we weren’t that close as in I knew
1770
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
R.A. BELL
1
2
3
all of his friends and associates.
MR HILL:
No, but it seems you at least met and knew Mr
Napoli.
4
MR BELL:
Yes.
5
MR HILL:
Yes.
6
Have you conducted any business transactions
for Mr Rosewarne?
7
MR BELL:
Yes.
8
MR HILL:
How many?
9
MR BELL:
One.
10
MR HILL:
And when was that?
11
MR BELL:
I think it was 2010.
12
MR HILL:
And what occurred, he approached you?
13
MR BELL:
Yes.
14
MR HILL:
How did he approach you?
15
MR BELL:
He asked me if I could organise some office
16
furniture for his house.
17
MR HILL:
Did he ring you?
18
MR BELL:
I don’t recall.
19
That’s four years ago.
I couldn’t
tell you.
20
MR HILL:
Yes.
Do you have a showroom or - - -
21
MR BELL:
We do, yes.
22
MR HILL:
Yes.
And – anyway, he makes contact with you and
23
says he wants some office furniture for his home;
24
that right?
is
25
MR BELL:
Yes.
26
MR HILL:
And did he ask you to source that office furniture?
27
MR BELL:
Yes.
28
MR HILL:
And what was the office furniture?
29
MR BELL:
Again, I don’t recall the exact items, but there
30
would – as far as I remember, there was some general
1771
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
R.A. BELL
1
office furniture as in desk, and shelving, and filing
2
cabinets, chairs, all that sort of stuff.
3
MR HILL:
Yes.
And could we have page 136 on the screen.
If
4
you look at the screen in front of you – this is part of
5
exhibit 13, Commissioner – you will see an email from
6
yourself to Mr Rosewarne.
7
MR BELL:
8
MR HILL:
9
Yes.
Thanks Jeffrey, I’ve attached a brochure which has
10
some glass-top furniture for you to look at.
Let me
11
know if this is of any interest and I will get you
12
some pricing.
13
So the likelihood is he must have telephoned you, because
14
if he had come in, you would have given him the brochure.
15
16
MR BELL:
Well, I’ve emailed him the brochure by the looks of
it, haven’t I?
17
MR HILL:
Yes.
18
MR BELL:
Yes.
19
MR HILL:
So the likelihood is he telephoned you.
20
MR BELL:
Yes.
21
MR HILL:
You’ve emailed him back with a brochure;
22
right?
23
MR BELL:
Could be right.
24
MR HILL:
All right.
25
is that
I’m not sure.
Ultimately, did you obtain the office
furniture that he selected?
26
MR BELL:
Yes.
27
MR HILL:
And did you send him an invoice for it?
28
MR BELL:
Yes.
29
MR HILL:
Were any of these dealings that you had with him in
30
person that you can recall?
1772
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
R.A. BELL
1
MR BELL:
Look, I don’t recall.
I honestly don’t.
I don’t
2
recall.
I would be guessing if I said that it was in
3
person.
It could have been over the phone.
4
MR HILL:
Was the office furniture delivered to his home?
5
MR BELL:
To my recollection, yes.
6
MR HILL:
Yes.
7
8
9
10
11
Did you deliver it, or did you have one of
your drivers deliver it?
MR BELL:
I think – look, if I recall, it was one of our
drivers, but, again - - MR HILL:
Were you given any instructions by Mr Rosewarne as
to how you should invoice - - -
12
MR BELL:
Yes.
13
MR HILL:
- - - his purchase of furniture for his home?
14
MR BELL:
Yes.
15
MR HILL:
What were the instructions?
16
MR BELL:
The instructions were – initially I was told that he
17
is – it was going to be invoiced to the Education
18
Department, and I said okay, and then when it got closer
19
to the date, I recall it being asked to be invoiced as –
20
to the – to a school, but as something else – as
21
printing.
22
MR HILL:
As printing?
23
MR BELL:
Yes.
24
MR HILL:
Well, could we have, please, on the screen page 306.
25
This is an email from you, Mr Bell, to Mr Rosewarne at
26
his email address, swanslegend@hotmail.com.
27
Rosewarne’s email address?
28
MR BELL:
That – yes.
29
MR HILL:
Yes.
30
That’s Mr
Well – yes, yes.
How did you obtain his email address,
swanslegend?
1773
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
R.A. BELL
1
MR BELL:
He would have given it to me - - -
2
MR HILL:
Yes.
3
MR BELL:
- - - and asked me to email it to that address.
4
MR HILL:
Yes.
And you say in your email:
5
Dear Jeffrey, attached is the invoice for printing
6
you required.
7
time next week and back from leave on Monday, 12
8
April.
9
10
I am available until Thursday lunch
Let me know what suits you and Nino.
Now, we will just look at page 307 which goes with that
email.
There’s your invoice?
11
MR BELL:
Yes.
12
MR HILL:
And you will see the invoice is made out to Moonee
13
Ponds West Primary School, Athol Street, Moonee Ponds.
14
MR BELL:
Yes.
15
MR HILL:
And the description of the service provided by
16
Office National is said to be:
17
Design and graphic of school publication and printing
18
of school publication as per specs.
19
That’s what’s on the invoice.
20
MR BELL:
Correct.
21
MR HILL:
Yes.
22
MR BELL:
Correct.
23
MR HILL:
And how did it come to be upon your invoice?
24
MR BELL:
I was asked to invoice it that way.
25
MR HILL:
Right.
26
That description in both particulars is false?
So you were asked to invoice it as Design
and graphic of school publication?
Sorry.
Yes?
27
MR BELL:
Yes.
Yes.
28
MR HILL:
And as printing of school publication as per specs.
29
MR BELL:
Correct.
30
MR HILL:
Was that given to you in writing, that - - 1774
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
R.A. BELL
1
2
MR BELL:
Again, it’s four years ago, I don’t recall the exact
dynamics of how it happened.
3
MR HILL:
Are you - - -
4
MR BELL:
Again, I would be guessing.
5
MR HILL:
- - - in the habit of creating false invoices for
6
your clients?
7
MR BELL:
Definitely not.
8
MR HILL:
Well, this one would therefore stand in your memory,
9
Definitely not.
would it not, as being somewhat unusual?
10
MR BELL:
If you put it that way, yes.
11
MR HILL:
Yes.
12
MR BELL:
But I don’t recall the exact details of it;
13
14
15
Well - - phone
calls and – I mean, four years is a long time.
MR HILL:
Right.
So were you – did you ask any questions as
to why you were - - -
16
MR BELL:
No.
17
MR HILL:
- - - being asked?
18
MR BELL:
No.
19
MR HILL:
You’ve been in business, what, some 15 years?
20
MR BELL:
Yes.
21
MR HILL:
And presumably valued your reputation?
22
MR BELL:
Absolutely.
23
MR HILL:
Considered yourself to be a reputable business?
24
MR BELL:
Absolutely.
25
MR HILL:
Not in the habit of compiling false invoices - - -
26
MR BELL:
No.
27
MR HILL:
- - - or being a participant in false accounting?
28
MR BELL:
Definitely not.
29
MR HILL:
Here you are participating in such activities.
30
MR BELL:
It seems that way, doesn’t it.
1775
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
R.A. BELL
1
MR HILL:
Did you ask for an explanation from - - -
2
MR BELL:
No.
3
MR HILL:
- - - Mr Rosewarne?
4
MR BELL:
No, because I trusted this man.
5
MR HILL:
Trusted him about what?
6
MR BELL:
That because of his position in the department, that
7
8
9
he could request it to be done that way.
MR HILL:
Right.
And does that include your billing it to the
Moonee Ponds West Primary school?
10
MR BELL:
Yes.
11
MR HILL:
And could we just go back to page 306, please.
12
is the email you sent with the invoice.
13
sentence of your email?
14
Nino.”
This
You see the last
“Let me know what suits you and
15
MR BELL:
Yes.
16
MR HILL:
What did you mean by that?
17
MR BELL:
I don’t recall the comment, other than it was
18
obviously an answer to something I may have been asked.
19
I don’t recall what it was.
20
for a coffee or something.
21
recall.
22
so - - -
It may have been to catch up
I don’t know.
I don’t
But I can – nothing – it never happened anyway,
23
MR HILL:
What never happened?
24
MR BELL:
I never – there was no – never any meeting or catch
25
up.
26
context of that was.
27
MR HILL:
I don’t know – I seriously don’t remember what the
Was there any discussion between you and Mr
28
Rosewarne about Mr Napoli being involved in the payment
29
of your account?
30
MR BELL:
Not that I recall.
1776
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
R.A. BELL
1
2
MR HILL:
Was that something that you would be likely to
recall if it was said?
3
MR BELL:
Not necessarily, no.
4
MR HILL:
Now, you will recall this, presumably, your invoice
5
wasn’t paid directly, was it?
6
MR BELL:
Correct.
7
MR HILL:
Did you ring the school and ask why they had not
8
9
10
paid it?
MR BELL:
No, I wouldn’t have rung the school, no.
I had an
accounts lady.
11
MR HILL:
Yes.
12
MR BELL:
No.
13
MR HILL:
Did she report back to you that she had rung the
14
15
Did you instruct her to ring the school?
school?
MR BELL:
I don’t directly recall her asking that.
I know
16
that she had said to me a few months later “That hasn’t
17
been paid.”
18
19
MR HILL:
So what you would have done then is either got on
the telephone or emailed Mr Rosewarne.
20
MR BELL:
Yes.
21
MR HILL:
Because you knew the furniture was for him.
22
MR BELL:
Yes.
23
MR HILL:
Could we have page 348 on the screen.
24
is all part of exhibit 13, Commissioner.
25
scroll down.
26
Rosewarne at his private email address,
27
swanslegend@hotmail.com.
Again, this
I will just
This is an email from you, Mr Bell, to Mr
28
MR BELL:
Yes.
29
MR HILL:
Dated 16 June 2010.
30
MR BELL:
Mmm.
Is that so?
1777
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
R.A. BELL
1
2
MR HILL:
By this stage some months had gone by since you
delivered the furniture and had not been paid.
3
MR BELL:
Correct.
4
MR HILL:
“Hi Jeffrey.
I was wondering if you could chase up
5
that payment for the invoice for goods to Moonee Ponds
6
West Primary School in March.
7
of your friend leaving, I can credit it and re-charge it
8
to another school.
9
Who was his friend who was leaving?
If it’s a problem because
Let me know what you want to do.”
10
MR BELL:
I have no idea.
11
MR HILL:
Well, these are you words, Mr Bell.
12
MR BELL:
Yes, but that doesn’t - - -
13
MR HILL:
If it’s - - -
14
MR BELL:
I’m answering the question - - -
15
MR HILL:
Just a moment.
16
MR BELL:
I’m answering the question I don’t know who his
17
18
19
20
21
friend is.
MR O’BRYAN:
Just let Mr Hill ask his next question, and then
you can answer it.
MR HILL:
These are your words.
“If it’s a problem because of
your friend leaving”.
22
MR BELL:
Yes.
23
MR HILL:
You must have known when you wrote those words - - -
24
MR BELL:
I don’t know who his friend was.
25
MR HILL:
Well, you must have had something in mind when you
26
27
wrote those words?
MR BELL:
I don’t know who his friend is.
I’m answering the
28
question truthfully.
The context of that may have been
29
from a conversation that he – it was being paid from the
30
school by a friend of his – I don’t know.
1778
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
But I don’t
R.A. BELL
1
know who is friend is.
2
contact with that school ever.
3
4
MR O’BRYAN:
I wouldn’t have a clue.
I had no
So you – I’m taking it you can’t name a name;
you’re saying “Well, I don’t know who the person was”?
5
MR BELL:
6
MR O’BRYAN:
7
MR BELL:
8
name.
9
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes, it was a general conversation.
I understand that.
If I knew who his friend was I would have said his
I understand that.
But it can be taken, can it,
10
that you had become aware he had a friend there but
11
you’re saying you don’t – you never knew the name of the
12
friend?
13
MR BELL:
Possibly, but I don’t recall – I don’t recall the
14
exact conversations, other than all I was trying to do
15
was to obtain my money for services I provided.
16
MR O’BRYAN:
17
MR BELL:
18
MR O’BRYAN:
But it’s more than - - I mean, it was - - But it’s surely more than possible.
I mean,
19
they’re your words, and your words relate to a friend
20
leaving.
21
MR BELL:
So you didn’t make it up, I take it?
No, no, no, I didn’t make it up.
Look, Jeffrey –
22
Jeff may have possibly told me that someone that he knew
23
that was going to pay the bill had left.
24
MR O’BRYAN:
Well, I mean, if you didn’t make it up, you
25
either got it from Mr Rosewarne, or you got it from
26
somewhere else.
27
MR BELL:
28
MR O’BRYAN:
29
30
Yes.
So do you think there was a somewhere else you
got it from apart from Mr Rosewarne?
MR BELL:
It wouldn’t be anybody else.
1779
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
I had no contact with
R.A. BELL
1
2
3
anyone else.
MR O’BRYAN:
Well, then when you say Mr Rosewarne may have
told you - - -
4
MR BELL:
Yes.
5
MR O’BRYAN:
6
MR BELL:
- - - I’m taking it he must have told you.
Well, he must have.
But I don’t remember the
7
context of what – him telling me.
8
don’t know - - -
9
MR O’BRYAN:
10
MR BELL:
11
MR O’BRYAN:
12
MR HILL:
I mean, as I said, I
All right.
- - - anybody from that school.
Back to you, Mr Hill.
Just keep looking at the screen, Mr Bell.
13
credit it and re-charge it to another school.”
14
you mean by that when you wrote those words?
15
MR BELL:
“I can
What did
Well, because if he has told me that his friend or
16
his colleague at the school and it can’t be paid, well,
17
I’m stating I need my money.
18
19
20
21
22
MR HILL:
But why would you offer to re-charge it to another
school?
MR BELL:
that.
MR HILL:
I don’t know.
I have no idea why I would have said
I just wanted my money.
Presumably Mr Rosewarne had told you certain facts,
23
that he had someone at a school who could pay the
24
invoice, and that that person was leaving?
25
MR BELL:
Possibly.
26
MR HILL:
And that if it was a problem he could get another
27
school to pay it?
28
MR BELL:
Possibly.
29
MR HILL:
Because we know what you did was to send another
30
invoice, don’t we?
1780
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
R.A. BELL
1
MR BELL:
Yes.
2
MR HILL:
And this time you sent it to the Chandler Primary
3
School?
4
MR BELL:
Correct.
5
MR HILL:
Could we please have page 325.
6
MR BELL:
I have a copy of it here.
7
MR HILL:
It will come up on the screen
8
MR BELL:
Sorry, that’s okay.
9
Could I get some more water if
that’s possible?
10
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
11
MR HILL:
Yes, you can have some more water.
12
MR BELL:
Thank you.
13
MR HILL:
You will see the second invoice that you sent with
14
the changed school particulars.
So it has gone from
15
Moonee Ponds West Primary School to Chandler Primary
16
School.
17
MR BELL:
Yes.
18
MR HILL:
How did you come upon the name Chandler Primary
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
School?
MR BELL:
I would have been asked by Jeff to charge it to that
school.
MR HILL:
Do you know whether that was as a result of a
telephone conversation?
MR BELL:
Again, possibly.
But I don’t recall whether it was
in person or - - MR HILL:
And again, consistent with the previous invoice, you
have the description as the same.
MR BELL:
Well, all I did was edit the top with the address,
that was all.
MR HILL:
Right.
Leaving the false description of - - 1781
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
R.A. BELL
1
MR BELL:
Yes, it was all left.
2
MR HILL:
And this time the invoice was paid, is that so?
3
MR BELL:
Correct.
4
MR O’BRYAN:
5
6
Yes.
And did you have a belief that Mr Rosewarne had –
also had a friend at Chandler?
MR BELL:
No.
Well – no.
But that would only be an opinion,
7
but I don’t know any of these people, so I have been
8
reading about this case in the paper and it has all been
9
total, like, shock to me, this whole thing, so - - -
10
MR O’BRYAN:
11
MR BELL:
12
13
14
15
Why were you shocked, out of interest?
The size of it.
I – like, I think the public are.
I’m shocked with this whole thing.
MR O’BRYAN:
Sorry.
What, shocked that so many people could falsely
invoice?
MR BELL:
Shocked that people could rip-off of the public like
16
that.
17
MR O’BRYAN:
18
MR HILL:
And shocked that you’re part of it?
19
MR BELL:
Unwittingly, yes.
20
MR HILL:
Nothing unwittingly about it.
Yes.
The two invoices that
21
you did were deliberate and intentional examples of false
22
accounting.
23
MR BELL:
Not in – well - - -
24
MR HILL:
Weren’t they?
25
MR BELL:
I trusted this man, that he - - -
26
MR HILL:
Address the question, Mr Bell.
27
Your two invoices
were deliberate and intentional.
28
MR BELL:
Intentional to what?
29
MR HILL:
False accounting.
30
MR BELL:
Well, what does that mean?
1782
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
R.A. BELL
1
MR HILL:
The description.
2
MR BELL:
No, that’s right.
3
that’s right.
You didn’t supply printing.
The description ..... – yes,
Correct.
4
MR HILL:
When did you last see Mr Rosewarne?
5
MR BELL:
Last year.
6
Late last – I can’t remember – it was
middle of last - - -
7
MR HILL:
Approximately?
8
MR BELL:
Roughly the middle of last year.
9
MR HILL:
Yes.
10
MR BELL:
I had a drink with him.
11
MR HILL:
Whereabouts did you have a drink with him?
12
MR BELL:
In Carlton.
13
MR HILL:
And how did that come about?
14
MR BELL:
I think he texted me and asked me if I wanted to
15
And where did you see him?
have a drink.
16
MR HILL:
Right.
17
MR BELL:
From my office.
18
MR HILL:
From your office.
19
MR BELL:
Yes.
In – in Keilor Park, yes.
20
MR HILL:
Yes.
And how long did you and Mr Rosewarne speak
21
So you came in to Carlton from - - -
for on that occasion?
22
MR BELL:
Maybe an hour.
23
MR HILL:
Just the two of you?
24
MR BELL:
Yes.
25
MR HILL:
Was there anything said by either of you regarding
26
27
28
the purchase by him of the office furniture?
MR BELL:
I recall a brief conversation if I had been
contacted by IBAC.
29
MR HILL:
He asked you, “Have you been contacted by IBAC?”
30
MR BELL:
Correct.
1783
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
R.A. BELL
1
MR HILL:
And what did you say?
2
MR BELL:
I said, “No.”
3
MR HILL:
And that was the truth at that time.
4
MR BELL:
At that stage, yes, I hadn’t.
5
MR HILL:
And did he say why - - -
6
MR BELL:
No.
7
MR HILL:
Did you ask him why it was that he’s asking you
8
9
No.
about IBAC?
MR BELL:
Well, we knew that he – my offices have been raided
10
eight months or whatever – seven months before so he
11
wouldn’t ask me that question.
12
MR HILL:
Right.
So - - -
13
MR BELL:
Because my – I was away on leave when we were – when
14
my offices were raided and I didn’t hear from anybody
15
from IBAC for months.
16
MR HILL:
Right.
So you’re having a drink with Mr Rosewarne.
17
He asked you if you’ve heard from IBAC.
18
that’s not the truth.”
19
20
21
22
23
24
MR BELL:
Yes.
MR HILL:
You say, “No,
No, sorry, that – I – I said, “No, it is the truth.”
I – I said that, “I hadn’t heard from them.”
Right.
So you hadn’t heard from IBAC at the time of
this meeting with - - MR BELL:
Not personally.
I hadn’t been called – I hadn’t
been – no one had called me from IBAC.
25
MR HILL:
Right.
26
MR BELL:
Correct.
27
MR HILL:
How did he know that?
28
MR BELL:
Because I called him from my holiday and I said,
29
30
But they had been to your premises.
He knew that.
“What’s going on?”
MR HILL:
And what did he tell you when - - 1784
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
R.A. BELL
1
MR BELL:
He just said, “I’m being investigated.”
2
MR HILL:
About what?
3
MR BELL:
Well, he didn’t really say.
4
MR HILL:
Well, did you say to him, “Well, why am I involved?”
5
6
7
8
9
10
Or did you already have a fair understanding?
MR BELL:
Did I?
I had a feeling that that was going to be
part of it, yes.
MR HILL:
And why did you have a feeling it was going to be
part of it?
MR BELL:
Because – because he asked me to invoice his
11
printing.
12
it but I trusted him, as I said.
13
MR HILL:
I always in my mind had a little doubt about
I – that was it.
You must have had an inkling that there was
14
something wrong when you’re invoicing two different
15
primary schools when the furniture clearly was delivered
16
to his home address.
17
MR BELL:
Yes.
18
MR HILL:
Was that the last time when you were having this
19
drink with Mr Rosewarne that you’ve had any contact with
20
him?
21
MR BELL:
Correct.
22
MR HILL:
So you haven’t spoken to him - - -
23
MR BELL:
No.
24
MR HILL:
- - - since that time?
25
MR BELL:
No, not one bit .....
26
MR HILL:
Haven’t seen him since that time?
27
MR BELL:
No.
28
MR HILL:
Or had any other dealings either by way of email or
29
30
- - MR BELL:
Nothing.
I was asked by the IBAC investigators to
1785
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
R.A. BELL
1
not have any contact with him and I honoured that.
2
haven’t had any contact with him since I was interviewed.
3
MR HILL:
4
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
I
Thank you, Mr Bell.
Yes.
Now, Mr Maitland, you can, if you want to,
5
ask some questions.
You will be the first representative
6
to do it.
7
possible someone might apply to cross-examine your
8
client.
9
it’s possible I might give leave but that’s all up in the
You can defer if you want to because it is
That’s yet to happen but it remains possible and
10
air.
So you can really decide at this point whether you
11
want to ask anything now or just defer to see what
12
happens down the track but I can’t guarantee that your
13
client would otherwise be required back here so - - -
14
MR MAITLAND:
15
MR O’BRYAN:
Nothing arising, Commissioner.
All right.
Thank you.
So we can take it then,
16
can we, that unless your client is required back, you
17
wouldn’t otherwise want to question your client – ask
18
questions of your client?
19
MR MAITLAND:
20
MR O’BRYAN:
Correct.
Correct.
Well, that’s how I’m .....
Thank you,
21
very much, Mr Maitland.
22
any event your examination may need to be continued at a
23
later date for the reasons I’ve just mentioned.
24
MR BELL:
25
MR O’BRYAN:
It’s unlikely, Mr Bell, but in
Sure.
And is therefore adjourned to a date and time to
26
be fixed.
You remain bound by the summons and the
27
confidentiality notice.
28
if you are to be required again through your legal
29
representatives and of a date and time and you will also
30
be advised in writing when you are no longer required.
You will be advised in writing
1786
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
R.A. BELL
1
The time now is 2.40 pm so please stop the recording.
2
The examination is now concluded.
3
witness box.
4
the bar table.
5
assistance.
6
You may leave the
Thank you, Mr Bell, and you’re excused from
Mr Maitland, thank you for your
THE WITNESS WITHDREW
[2.41 pm]
1787
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
R.A. BELL
1
MR O’BRYAN:
2
MR HILL:
Now, can somebody - - -
I’m told, Commissioner, there will be a delay of
3
some five to 10 minutes before the next witness is
4
available.
5
6
MR O’BRYAN:
All right.
Thank you, Mr Hill.
might adjourn until I’m told to return.
Well then, I
Thank you.
7
ADJOURNED
[2.41 pm]
8
RESUMED
[3.02 pm]
9
MR O’BRYAN:
This examination is to be video recorded.
Please
10
commence the recording.
Today’s date is 19 May 2015 and
11
the time is 3.03 pm.
12
conducting this examination under powers delegated to me
13
by instrument dated 5 September 2013.
14
a copy of the instrument of delegation as exhibit 1.
15
This examination is being held and conducted under part 6
16
of the Independent Broad-based Anti-corruption Commission
17
Act 2011 as part of an investigation under part 3 of that
18
Act.
19
Virtue – who’s Mr Virtue?
20
And to your legal representative.
My name is Stephen O’Bryan.
I’m
I have had marked
I take this opportunity to draw your attention, Mr
21
MS KOTHRAKIS:
22
MR O’BRYAN:
That’s correct.
Yes.
Mr Virtue.
Good afternoon.
That’s Ms Kothrakis.
Ms Kothrakis.
Good afternoon.
To the fact that this
23
examination is inquisitorial.
24
bound by the rules of evidence and that I can regulate
25
the conduct of the examination in any way I consider
26
appropriate.
27
Virtue, you may be represented by Ms Kothrakis.
28
This means that I’m not
The examination is open to the public.
Mr
However, the IBAC Act gives me the power to review
29
that decision in certain circumstances and, Ms Kothrakis,
30
you will be given an opportunity at the conclusion of the
1788
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
examination, should you wish, to ask your client
2
questions or to make a statement or submission on his
3
behalf relevant to the subject matter of the
4
investigation at an appropriate stage which we can
5
discuss later.
6
Ms Kothrakis, I’m required to inform you as Mr
7
Virtue’s legal representative of certain nondisclosure
8
requirements which apply to you pursuant to subsections
9
130(1)(d) and 44(2)(b) of the IBAC Act, namely, you may
10
not disclose the restricted matters specified in the
11
confidentiality notice received by your client and dated
12
16 March 2015 to any other person while the notice has
13
effect.
14
To do so is a criminal offence.
You may disclose the restricted matters specified in
15
the confidentiality notice in accordance with a direction
16
or authorisation given by me or another appropriately
17
qualified IBAC officer or for the purposes of complying
18
with the legal duty of disclosure or a professional
19
obligation arising from your professional representation.
20
I would ask you at this stage, Mr Virtue, to please enter
21
the witness box and please be seated, Mr Virtue.
22
have a middle name?
23
MR VIRTUE:
24
MR O’BRYAN:
Thomas.
Pursuant to my delegated powers, I now require
25
you to take an oath or to make an affirmation.
26
those two options do you prefer, Mr Virtue?
27
MR VIRTUE:
28
VINCENT THOMAS VIRTUE, SWORN
29
MR O’BRYAN:
30
Do you
Which of
An oath.
Thank you.
[3.05 pm]
You can replace the Bible.
Because
this is an inquisitorial examination, the procedure
1789
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
differs from procedures which are adversarial in nature
2
and of the kind you normally see in the courts.
3
assisting me, Mr Hill, will question you on matters
4
relevant to the subject matter of the investigation, and
5
I may also ask you some questions.
6
concluded, as you’ve heard, I will extend an opportunity
7
to your legal representative, should she wish to do so,
8
to ask any questions on your behalf, or otherwise to say
9
something on your behalf at an appropriate stage.
10
Counsel
And when Mr Hill has
I’m also required to deal with the following
11
preliminary matters, namely to advise you of the nature
12
of the matters in respect of which you are to be asked
13
questions, and they are to give evidence before this
14
Commission in relation to your knowledge of matters the
15
subject of the scope and purpose described in the
16
preliminary information and directions for public
17
examinations in Operation Ord attached to your summons.
18
Mr Virtue, at the time you were served with the
19
summons to attend, did you receive a document titled
20
Section 121(3)(c) Statement of Rights and Obligations?
21
MR VIRTUE:
22
MR O’BRYAN:
23
Yes.
And have you had an opportunity prior to this
examination to go through that with your lawyer?
24
MR VIRTUE:
25
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
The final matter is this, both Mr Virtue and Ms
26
Kothrakis, because this investigation involves a
27
protected disclosure under the Protected Disclosures Act,
28
I’m required to advise you of two matters, namely you
29
would be committing a criminal offence if you disclose
30
the content or information about the content of the
1790
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
disclosure.
2
criminal offence if you disclose information likely to
3
lead to the identification of the person who made the
4
assessable disclosure, assuming, of course, that you know
5
either such thing, which you may not.
6
Secondly, you would also be committing a
Mr Virtue, you may disclose the content or
7
information about the content of the protected disclosure
8
to your legal representative for the purpose of obtaining
9
legal advice, or as part of your representation here.
I
10
am otherwise satisfied that the limited exceptions which
11
would allow such disclosure do not apply in this case,
12
and I do not allow disclosure for any other purpose.
13
And, Ms Kothrakis, for your part you may disclose
14
such information for the purposes of complying with a
15
legal duty of disclosure, or a professional obligation
16
arising from your professional relationship with your
17
client.
18
19
20
21
The examination will now commence, and I authorise Mr
Hill to conduct it.
MR HILL:
MR VIRTUE:
23
MR HILL:
24
MR VIRTUE:
25
MR HILL:
MR VIRTUE:
28
MR HILL:
30
Mr Virtue, is your full
Yes.
And your surname is spelt V-i-r-t-u-e?
Yes.
And you attend here today in response to a summons
that was served upon you?
27
29
Thank you, Commissioner.
name Vincent Thomas Virtue?
22
26
Thank you, Mr Hill.
Yes.
And I will have shown to you four documents.
But
was the summons that was served upon you numbered SC1432?
MR VIRTUE:
Yes.
1791
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
2
MR HILL:
confidentiality notice, dated 16 March 2015?
3
MR VIRTUE:
4
MR HILL:
5
MR VIRTUE:
7
MR HILL:
9
10
11
Yes.
And you also received a document, titled Section 121
subsection (3)(c), Statement of Rights and Obligations.
6
8
And with that summons, did you receive a
Yes.
And a covering letter in addition, dated 16 March
2015.
MR VIRTUE:
MR HILL:
Yes.
And the documents that you have in your hand are
copies apparently of the documents that you received.
12
MR VIRTUE:
13
MR HILL:
14
MR O’BRYAN:
15
EXHIBIT #152 COPIES OF FOUR DOCUMENTS RECEIVED BY MR VIRTUE
16
MR HILL:
17
MR VIRTUE:
18
MR HILL:
19
MR VIRTUE:
20
MR HILL:
21
They are.
Yes.
I tender those, Commissioner.
Yes.
Exhibit 152.
Mr Virtue, as we understand it, you’re now retired.
I’ve resigned from the Department of Education.
Yes.
Are you currently in gainful employment?
No, no.
And you resigned from the Department in May 2014, or
thereabouts.
22
MR VIRTUE:
23
MR HILL:
Or thereabouts.
I wonder if I could just ask you to keep your voice
24
up so we can all hear, and the microphone to the right
25
slightly amplifies.
26
about May 2014.
27
MR VIRTUE:
28
MR HILL:
29
30
So you resigned from the Department
Yes, yes.
At that stage you had been employed with the
Department of Education for some 40 years.
MR VIRTUE:
Yes, yes.
1792
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
2
MR HILL:
student teacher?
3
MR VIRTUE:
4
MR HILL:
5
MR VIRTUE:
6
7
8
9
And can we take it that you started off as a, what,
Yes, yes.
What did you study and where?
I studied Bachelor of Commerce at Melbourne
University, and then a Diploma of Education at Melbourne.
MR HILL:
Yes.
And having completed the degree and diploma,
did you then embark upon a teaching career?
MR VIRTUE:
10
MR HILL:
11
MR VIRTUE:
I did.
And essentially what schools did you teach at?
I taught at Altona High School, Altona North High
12
School, Deer Park High School, Craigieburn High School.
13
And then I was appointed principal at Gladstone Park.
14
15
16
17
MR HILL:
And during your teaching career, what subjects did
you teach?
MR VIRTUE:
Economics, legal studies, history, phys ed, some
accounting.
18
MR HILL:
19
MR VIRTUE:
Through grades 7 to 12?
Essentially I taught legal studies and economics
20
to 12.
21
11.
22
MR HILL:
23
MR VIRTUE:
24
MR HILL:
25
MR VIRTUE:
27
MR HILL:
29
30
Just keep the voice up.
Sorry.
And you then became a school principal.
What year
was that, approximately?
26
28
And the other subjects I taught probably to year
I – 1989.
And you served various roles as a school principal
or liaison principal from that time onwards.
MR VIRTUE:
I was – from 1989 till about 1991 I was principal
at Gladstone Park.
I then – I was then in the Department
1793
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
2
of Education as a senior officer, and I was - - MR HILL:
Can I just stop you there in your train of thought.
3
When you were in the Department as – was it senior
4
education officer?
5
MR VIRTUE:
6
MR HILL:
7
MR VIRTUE:
No, a senior officer.
Senior officer.
What particular role did you have?
Well, I had various roles.
I was an assistant
8
general manager initially at – in charge of
9
communications.
10
MR HILL:
11
MR VIRTUE:
Yes.
I was then a regional director in Ballarat for
12
three years.
13
metropolitan Melbourne, and I was in charge of a branch
14
called School Operations Division in the centre.
15
head of the school governance unit in the centre.
16
was then – prior to returning to schools, I was then
17
asked to go to Bendigo as regional director and I was
18
there for about two to two and a half years before I
19
returned to schools.
20
liaison principal ultimately in – I’m trying to remember
21
the dates, two thousand and - - -
22
MR HILL:
23
MR VIRTUE:
I was regional director in southern
And three.
- - - and three.
I started at Parkwood Secondary
College in the middle of 2009.
25
Norwood Secondary College.
MR HILL:
And I
And then I returned to schools as a
24
26
I was
All right.
I was transferred to
We will come back to some of the detail
27
in a moment, but in 2003 essentially you were made the
28
principal of the Parkwood Secondary College.
29
MR VIRTUE:
30
MR HILL:
Yes.
And that was a school, as we understand it, that at
1794
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
that time had some difficulties in terms of whether it
2
was a viable school.
3
MR VIRTUE:
4
MR HILL:
Yes.
And the thinking at that time was that Parkwood
5
Secondary College would most likely merge with the nearby
6
Norwood Secondary College.
7
8
9
MR VIRTUE:
That thinking developed.
It wasn’t – on my
appointment that thinking wasn’t current.
MR HILL:
Right.
So at the time of your appointment, you were
10
simply made principal of the Parkwood Secondary College
11
and - - -
12
MR VIRTUE:
13
MR HILL:
14
MR VIRTUE:
15
MR HILL:
Yes.
You were to - - Do what I could.
- - - do what you could with that – with that
16
school.
17
moved to the Norwood - - -
18
MR VIRTUE:
And how long did you remain there before you
I was there until the middle of the year.
It
19
would be end of second term, July 2009.
20
transferred by the regional director to Norwood, and the
21
intention at that stage was that I was transferred in
22
order to amalgamate two schools.
23
MR HILL:
24
MR VIRTUE:
25
MR HILL:
26
27
28
29
30
I was
Which never occurred.
No.
And, in fact, just to complete the history, Parkwood
closed independently in about 2011.
MR VIRTUE:
My understanding now is it closed at the end of
2012.
MR HILL:
So we have you as the principal of the Parkwood
Secondary College between 2003 and the middle, or
1795
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
thereabouts, of 2009.
2
MR VIRTUE:
3
MR HILL:
That’s right.
And from that time, in 2009, until your retirement
4
in 2014 you were the principal of the Norwood Secondary
5
College.
6
MR VIRTUE:
7
MR HILL:
Correct.
Now, during your 40 years or so within the
8
Department of Education – and I know that it has had some
9
name changes, but you will understand what I mean by
10
Department of Education – during that time, did you meet
11
a person by the name of Nino Napoli?
12
MR VIRTUE:
13
MR HILL:
14
15
Yes, yes.
When is your first recollection of meeting Mr
Napoli?
MR VIRTUE:
I think my first recollection would be when he was
16
an officer in the Western Region and I was principal at
17
Gladstone Park, but I saw him at meetings.
18
personally meet him.
19
– first in town in the early ’90s.
20
21
MR HILL:
I personally met him when I was in
And that was when you were, what, within the schools
branch?
22
MR VIRTUE:
23
MR HILL:
24
MR VIRTUE:
Yes, yes.
And what role did he have at that time?
My understanding, he was a finance officer in what
25
was then the office of review.
26
give you.
27
28
I didn’t
MR HILL:
That’s the best I can
And what role were you performing in the schools
branch?
29
MR VIRTUE:
30
MR HILL:
By that stage, I was head of communications.
And for the uneducated of us, what does that entail?
1796
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
MR VIRTUE:
It – I was responsible for things like
2
documentation that went out to schools;
3
responsible for a newspaper that we then published at the
4
time fortnightly;
5
the Minister’s office in relation to launches and
6
promotion of government policy.
7
8
9
10
MR HILL:
I was
I was responsible for liaising with
Having met Mr Napoli, did the relationship between
the two of you change over the years?
MR VIRTUE:
MR HILL:
No.
How would you describe your relationship with him as
11
of, say, 2014 when you retired as principal from Norwood
12
Primary School – Norwood Secondary College?
13
MR VIRTUE:
When I retired, I hadn’t seen Nino for a very long
14
time, because I had left the centre, and so I had little
15
contact with him.
16
him which I developed when I was in town.
17
contact him, but, beyond that, I had no real relationship
18
with him.
19
20
MR HILL:
I had a professional relationship with
I was able to
And when you say you were able to contact him, was
there times when you had to contact him - - -
21
MR VIRTUE:
22
MR HILL:
23
MR VIRTUE:
24
MR HILL:
25
MR VIRTUE:
Not particularly, no.
- - - as a school principal?
Not that I can recall.
All right.
I can – there may have been conversations over
26
time – this is a long period of time – but they weren’t
27
conversations of consequence that I can recall.
28
29
30
MR HILL:
And you would therefore describe your relationship
with him as, what, a friendly work relationship?
MR VIRTUE:
Yes.
1797
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
MR HILL:
2
MR VIRTUE:
3
MR HILL:
4
MR VIRTUE:
5
MR HILL:
You didn’t socialise with him?
No.
At all?
No, not at all.
Right.
There did come a time when he approached you
6
in respect to paying certain invoices for him.
7
- - -
8
MR VIRTUE:
9
MR HILL:
Do you
Yes.
Can I take you to your time at Parkwood Secondary
10
College first.
11
College, was the term banker school known to you?
12
MR VIRTUE:
13
MR HILL:
14
MR VIRTUE:
16
MR HILL:
18
Right.
Yes, it was.
Was Parkwood Secondary College a banker
school?
15
17
Yes.
When you were at Parkwood Secondary
No.
What did you understand a banker school to
encompass?
MR VIRTUE:
Well, it could have encompassed a lot of things.
19
We have – the schools were entities, so we used them as
20
banker schools usually for – to support – money was put
21
into a banker school to support other schools in
22
particular projects, that sort of thing.
23
MR HILL:
24
MR VIRTUE:
25
MR HILL:
26
MR VIRTUE:
27
MR HILL:
28
MR VIRTUE:
And the school that the money was put into?
Yes, yes.
Usually.
So there would be a - - Usually.
- - - program - - But there were other occasions when moneys were
29
put into schools for a whole variety of reasons.
30
was - - 1798
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
That
DISCUSSION
1
MR HILL:
2
MR VIRTUE:
3
MR HILL:
Well, let’s just go to the usual circumstances.
Okay.
The usual circumstance was, was it, that money would
4
be put into a school for a regional program that a number
5
of schools in that region and the school that the money
6
went into would participate in?
7
MR VIRTUE:
8
MR HILL:
9
MR VIRTUE:
No.
What was the usual situation?
Well, there wasn’t a usual process, because the
10
difficulty was that the school was an entity and so – and
11
you have to have an entity in order to have a bank
12
account – and so money from all sorts of sources would go
13
into schools.
14
schools;
15
to schools;
16
networks themselves over time;
17
would decide which school they would use as a banker
18
school;
19
there was a whole variety of things that money would go
20
into schools for.
21
MR HILL:
Federal moneys would go directly to
some central State Government moneys would go
some would go to networks of schools and the
the networks themselves
some money would go in for special projects;
Well, when was it the first – when was the first
22
time that Mr Napoli approached you in respect to placing
23
money into the bank account of the Parkwood Secondary
24
College?
25
26
27
MR VIRTUE:
I thought originally it was 2007, but my
understanding now it was about 2004.
MR HILL:
Well, perhaps we could have up on the screen page 60
28
of the document, book 18.
Page – sorry, page 60.
29
a tax invoice said to be on the letterhead of Encino
30
Proprietary Limited to Parkwood Secondary College,
1799
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
Here’s
DISCUSSION
1
attention the principal, Mr Vin Virtue.
2
June 2004.
3
invoice?
4
MR VIRTUE:
5
MR HILL:
6
Do you have a recollection of this particular
No.
Do you have a recollection of a company by the name
of Encino Proprietary Limited?
7
MR VIRTUE:
8
MR HILL:
9
The date is 22
Yes.
I do recall that name.
Did they ever provide any work for – in terms of
goods or services to the Parkwood Secondary College?
10
MR VIRTUE:
11
MR HILL:
No, no.
How did it come about that this invoice for goods
12
and services that weren’t provided to your school came to
13
your school?
14
MR VIRTUE:
Some time before that invoice, I imagine, Nino had
15
contacted me by phone and he said to me he wanted to make
16
some payments through the school for a program that he
17
was running centrally and I said to him at the time,
18
“Nino, you understand my school has some financial
19
difficulties.
20
that, that’s okay, but hopefully there’s some moneys left
21
over for me.”
22
MR HILL:
23
MR VIRTUE:
If you’re going to – if you want to do
Well, your school was not a banker school.
No.
Not in my understanding of what a banker
24
school was.
25
run – to administer some payments for a central office
26
program and I agreed to do it.
27
28
MR HILL:
My school was asked by the central office to
When you say it “was asked by central office”, the
telephone call comes from Mr Nino Napoli;
29
MR VIRTUE:
30
MR HILL:
is that right?
Yes.
Was there any documentation?
1800
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
MR VIRTUE:
2
MR HILL:
No.
Right.
So it’s an oral appointment of your school
3
by Mr Napoli to be the recipient of moneys that you
4
understood were to be disbursed from time to time at his
5
direction - - -
6
MR VIRTUE:
7
MR HILL:
8
9
Yes.
- - - which was not documented in any way in terms
of the appointment
MR VIRTUE:
10
MR HILL:
11
MR VIRTUE:
12
MR HILL:
No, no, no.
No.
It was not a position that you had applied for.
No.
And can you think of any reason why it was that Mr
13
Napoli, of all the school principals in the State of
14
Victoria, would select you at that time?
15
MR VIRTUE:
Nino would have known, I think, that my school had
16
financial difficulties.
17
first thought at the time he made the call.
18
thought was that I had worked in town and I understood
19
the processes that we use, and I understood that there
20
were circumstances in which we would use schools to
21
administer programs that were essentially controlled by
22
the centre.
23
MR HILL:
24
MR VIRTUE:
25
26
My second
Right.
So I thought he had – he knew I understood that.
He put the money in.
MR HILL:
So I would think that was my
That’s how I understood it.
Well, you’re aware now that a number of false
27
invoices went through your school and were paid by your
28
school.
29
MR VIRTUE:
30
MR HILL:
I’m – well, it appears they are false.
Yes.
In respect to this particular tax invoice
1801
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
that’s before you, did you make any inquiries of Encino
2
Proprietary Limited?
3
MR VIRTUE:
4
MR HILL:
5
6
No, no.
So you didn’t make certain, for example, that the
goods had been provided to someone at the very least?
MR VIRTUE:
No, no.
My – my understanding was there would be
7
processes at the centre where these – these goods would
8
be checked.
9
and that someone, presumably in the Office of Schools,
10
had – had notified their manager that these goods had
11
been collected, the goods were what they asked for, and
12
that they had then sent the invoice to the school.
13
the invoice came to the school, we had processes to go
14
through which we went through, and I signed it off.
15
didn’t see it as necessary or in any way prudent to check
16
that that had happened.
17
town.
18
MR HILL:
My understanding, this was a normal invoice
When
I
I assumed that it happened in
Did Mr Napoli tell you that in respect to Encino
19
Proprietary Limited, the directors of that company were
20
relatives of his?
21
MR VIRTUE:
22
MR HILL:
23
MR VIRTUE:
25
MR HILL:
MR VIRTUE:
28
MR HILL:
30
No.
Had you known that, would that have caused you some
concern - - -
27
29
That the contact on that very invoice, Carlo, is
Carlo Squillacioti, a cousin of Mr Nino Napoli?
24
26
No.
Yes.
- - - having regard to the way in which you were
being asked to pay it?
MR VIRTUE:
Yes.
1802
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
2
3
4
MR HILL:
particular invoice.
MR VIRTUE:
Well, I – I haven’t got a signature to this, so I
can’t – I can’t recall - - -
5
MR HILL:
6
MR VIRTUE:
7
MR HILL:
8
MR VIRTUE:
9
MR HILL:
10
And there’s no doubt that the invoice was paid, this
Can we scroll down to the bottom of the page.
Okay.
Yes, that’s my signature.
Do we see your - - Yes, that’s my signature.
- - - initials which indicate you approved that
invoice for payment.
11
MR VIRTUE:
12
MR HILL:
13
MR VIRTUE:
14
MR HILL:
That’s right.
So the likelihood is, it was paid?
Yes, yes.
Mr Napoli, you’ve told us, rang you and said he
15
would like you to, in effect, pay certain invoices.
16
he cause money to be deposited from central funds into
17
the bank account of Parkwood Secondary College prior to
18
this invoice arriving?
19
MR VIRTUE:
20
MR HILL:
21
MR VIRTUE:
22
MR HILL:
23
MR VIRTUE:
Did
My understanding is he did, yes.
And how much?
I don’t know.
Were you keeping an account of - - No, I was not keeping an account of how much was
24
coming into the school or going out of the school.
25
expectation is that my business manager would have done
26
that.
27
MR HILL:
Right.
My
Now, look, in fairness to you, Mr Virtue,
28
can we take it that apart from the normal pressures of
29
being a school principal, particularly in a secondary
30
college, here you had the added difficulties of being
1803
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
under a lot more pressure because of the precarious
2
position of your school fighting for its existence?
3
MR VIRTUE:
4
MR HILL:
5
MR VIRTUE:
6
MR HILL:
8
MR VIRTUE:
10
And did that cause you a lot of other work?
It caused – it was the – it was the bulk of my
work.
7
9
Yes, that’s true.
And Mr Napoli would have known that?
I would expect he would, but I have no way of
knowing that he did.
MR HILL:
Because what you’re really telling us is you left
11
this largely, that is the accounting and the working out
12
as to whether the money was there or not to your business
13
manager.
14
MR VIRTUE:
15
MR HILL:
16
MR VIRTUE:
18
MR HILL:
Margot Walton.
And had she been the business manager there for some
time?
20
MR VIRTUE:
21
MR HILL:
22
MR VIRTUE:
23
MR HILL:
24
MR VIRTUE:
25
MR HILL:
26
MR VIRTUE:
27
MR HILL:
28
What was the name of the business manager in 2004 at
Parkwood Secondary College?
17
19
Yes, I did.
Yes, she had.
And do you know what qualifications she had?
No, I don’t.
You, of course, had qualifications in accounting.
Yes, I did, some – some - - Years earlier.
- - - some years earlier.
Yes.
But at least you had studied at tertiary level
accounting.
29
MR VIRTUE:
30
MR HILL:
Yes.
Did you major in accounting?
1804
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
MR VIRTUE:
2
MR HILL:
3
No.
I majored in economics.
Right.
But you’re familiar with reading the
accounts of - - -
4
MR VIRTUE:
5
MR HILL:
Yes, I am.
- - - of a school.
They’re not that difficult.
But
6
in terms of what money came in from the Department of
7
Education through Mr Napoli’s request, you really don’t
8
know.
9
10
11
MR VIRTUE:
MR HILL:
MR VIRTUE:
13
MR HILL:
14
MR VIRTUE:
16
No, it wasn’t.
Your hope and expectation was there might be
something left for the school.
12
15
That wasn’t something you followed.
Exactly.
Was there?
Look, I don’t – I don’t really know at Parkwood.
I don’t have – no, I don’t know whether there was or not.
MR HILL:
This might sound a bit harsh, Mr Virtue, but from
17
someone with a rudimentary understanding of economics and
18
accounting, it’s all a bit loose, isn’t it, in terms of
19
not knowing whether – you being ultimately responsible,
20
whether the school is making a profit out of this or is
21
making a loss?
22
MR VIRTUE:
My expectation is the school would have made a
23
small profit.
My expectation was that Mr Napoli would
24
have been putting money into the school that was a
25
rounded up sum, if you like, in anticipation of an
26
invoice.
27
he would be rounding up to a higher figure, otherwise the
28
school would have complained.
29
invoice that he – I understood he would get later, and
30
the amount he was placing into the school was what I
When he got the invoice, my expectation is that
The difference between the
1805
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
would anticipate was my benefit for undertaking the
2
administrative task.
3
but my expectation would have been we made a small sum.
4
5
6
7
8
9
MR HILL:
I – I don’t have a figure on that,
You would agree from a strict accounting point of
view that’s all fairly loose, isn’t it?
MR VIRTUE:
I wasn’t in control of it, and I didn’t seek at
any stage to get the figures.
MR HILL:
The next invoice we have to show you, if we could
have page 61 on the screen.
Again, it’s directed to the
10
principal of Parkwood Secondary College, dated 3 December
11
2005.
12
Is that so?
13
MR VIRTUE:
14
MR HILL:
15
MR VIRTUE:
That’s your school.
You’re the principal still.
Yes.
Is Quill Proprietary Limited a company known to you?
When I was first interviewed by IBAC I said I
16
couldn’t recall the name of this company.
17
am actually unsure whether I can recall the name of this
18
company now.
19
abroad in the press, of course, so - - -
20
21
MR HILL:
I’m – I’m – I
It’s – it’s – it’s a name that has been
Did they, that is Quill Proprietary Limited, provide
any items - - -
22
MR VIRTUE:
23
MR HILL:
24
MR VIRTUE:
25
MR HILL:
No, not to the school.
- - - to your school?
No.
You, as a school principal, no doubt, would have
26
looked at this invoice before authorising it.
27
scroll down, we will see your – you may have initialled
28
this as part of your statement so I won’t - - -
29
30
MR VIRTUE:
Yes.
If we
I’m not sure whether I initialled it then or
not, but I’m assuming I did see it.
1806
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
MR HILL:
2
MR VIRTUE:
The likelihood is you would have seen it?
Yes, yes.
I would have seen it in the bundle of
3
papers that came across my desk.
4
of the invoices in that bundle and it would have been
5
attached to an authorisation to pay.
6
7
8
9
10
11
MR HILL:
MR VIRTUE:
MR HILL:
There had been no further conversations about
So between June 2004 and December 2005, there had
been no further - - -
13
MR HILL:
14
MR VIRTUE:
No.
No further conversations.
Between you and Mr Napoli?
Not to my recollection, no.
Certainly not in
relation to these matters.
16
MR HILL:
17
MR VIRTUE:
19
No.
this.
MR VIRTUE:
18
Again, presumably there had been a telephone
conversation?
12
15
It would have been one
This is for quite a large sum of money;
$9900.
I didn’t – it didn’t cross my mind that that was a
large sum of money.
MR HILL:
Did it cross your mind that the contact, Carlo, and
20
the phone number is exactly the same as the earlier
21
invoice?
22
MR VIRTUE:
23
MR HILL:
24
25
26
No, no.
They are though, are they not?
Well, just – have
you - - MR VIRTUE:
Well, yes, they are.
Carlo is the same.
presume the number is the same.
27
MR HILL:
28
MR VIRTUE:
29
MR HILL:
30
MR VIRTUE:
I
Yes.
There’s Encino.
Yes, yes.
And, indeed, the fax number is the same.
Yes.
1807
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
MR HILL:
2
MR VIRTUE:
3
MR HILL:
4
MR VIRTUE:
5
MR HILL:
6
MR VIRTUE:
8
MR HILL:
10
No, it didn’t, it didn’t.
- - - occur to you at the time?
It didn’t.
No, it didn’t.
No explanation to you by anyone as to who Quill
Proprietary Limited were?
7
9
But, again, that didn’t - - -
No.
Again, you weren’t told that Quill Proprietary
Limited had as its directors the same directors that
Encino Proprietary Limited had - - -
11
MR VIRTUE:
12
MR HILL:
13
MR VIRTUE:
14
MR HILL:
No.
- - - namely relatives of Mr Nino Napoli?
No.
If you look at the description given on the invoice,
15
it must have leapt out at you as a school principal that
16
the word “brochures” has been misspelt?
17
18
19
20
MR VIRTUE:
I can’t say that it did at the time.
No, I can’t.
MR HILL:
You didn’t cause any inquiries to be made of Quill
Proprietary Limited?
21
MR VIRTUE:
22
MR HILL:
23
It does now.
No, I didn’t.
But you caused that invoice, through the business
manager, to be paid?
24
MR VIRTUE:
25
MR HILL:
Yes.
Thinking back, Mr Virtue, there must have been some
26
contact prior to that invoice between you and Mr Napoli,
27
otherwise how would you know to pay it and from what?
28
MR VIRTUE:
29
MR HILL:
30
I can’t recall any contact.
How did the invoice come?
Did it come with a
covering letter, or was it faxed, emailed?
1808
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
2
MR VIRTUE:
MR HILL:
4
MR VIRTUE:
5
MR HILL:
Would you open the mail?
No.
If it was – the mail was directed or written out for
your attention, would it be opened for you?
7
MR VIRTUE:
8
MR HILL:
9
MR VIRTUE:
10
I presume they were
mailed.
3
6
I actually don’t know.
Yes.
Would the envelope remain with it?
No.
MR HILL:
Could we now turn to page 62, please.
We’ve got
11
another invoice, this time from Quill Proprietary
12
Limited, 22 January 2007.
13
you’re clearly still principal, yes?
14
MR VIRTUE:
15
MR HILL:
16
MR VIRTUE:
17
MR O’BRYAN:
Parkwood Secondary College,
Yes.
And that would be principal spelt p-a-l?
Yes.
I mean, it’s like a primary school child’s
18
drawing ..... seriously, isn’t it, when you start to look
19
at them?
20
MR HILL:
You know, anyone looking at these invoices and
21
giving some moments thought might have some questions as
22
to a printing and stationery company that can’t get
23
either “principal” right or “brochures” right.
24
25
MR O’BRYAN:
and that’s one word when I last looked it up.
26
MR HILL:
27
MR VIRTUE:
28
29
30
And the last one had “letterhead” as two words
And - - I looked at it – I looked at them at the time
- - MR HILL:
- - - there are other errors, of course, too.
“Financial” is not spelt that way.
1809
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
And, again, if we
DISCUSSION
1
look at the contact, it’s the same person, Carlo?
2
MR VIRTUE:
3
MR HILL:
Yes, it is.
But, clearly, you didn’t receive – when I say “you”,
4
your school didn’t commission any work from Quill
5
Proprietary Limited?
6
MR VIRTUE:
7
MR HILL:
8
MR VIRTUE:
9
MR HILL:
10
No.
You never saw any quotes?
No.
You never received any, in this case, of the 3048
page full colour book, graph artwork and cover design?
11
MR VIRTUE:
12
MR HILL:
13
MR VIRTUE:
14
MR HILL:
15
yes?
16
MR VIRTUE:
17
MR HILL:
No.
And you made no inquiries about it of anyone?
No.
You simply caused your business manager to pay it,
Yes.
Did you check – because we’ve now moved to 2007, so
18
we’re looking at a span of some three years as to whether
19
there was money in the bank account of Parkwood Secondary
20
College specifically set aside to pay this?
21
MR VIRTUE:
No, I didn’t check, because I had assumed that my
22
business manager would be following it and my assumption
23
was that if she had concerns that the money wasn’t in the
24
bank account, she would have brought those concerns to my
25
attention.
26
MR HILL:
27
MR VIRTUE:
28
29
30
How would it be recorded in the school accounts?
I don’t know.
That would have been her
responsibility.
MR HILL:
Right.
And how would the deposit that came in from
Mr Napoli through central funds be recorded?
1810
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
MR VIRTUE:
2
MR HILL:
3
MR VIRTUE:
4
MR HILL:
5
MR VIRTUE:
7
MR HILL:
8
MR VIRTUE:
9
MR HILL:
MR VIRTUE:
12
MR HILL:
MR VIRTUE:
15
MR HILL:
16
MR VIRTUE:
18
19
MR HILL:
21
MR HILL:
24
MR VIRTUE:
- - - bearing account and a separate cheque account?
Yes.
So that the cheque account would be used to pay
Yes.
- - - and the money kept in the high interest
Yes.
- - - until needed?
And money that came in from the department came in
Yes.
Well, that was the through the student
Yes, yes.
The money that came in effectively from Mr Napoli,
I don’t know.
Did it just arrive in your account?
I presume it arrived – I presume it
was an electronic transfer.
MR HILL:
26
MR VIRTUE:
28
Yes, yes, yes.
how did it come in?
25
27
high interest - - -
resource package or grants normally, yes?
MR VIRTUE:
23
You had two bank accounts at Parkwood
to the high interest account.
20
22
Right.
bearing account - - -
14
17
It’s possible, yes.
items such as this invoice - - -
11
13
I would be guessing.
Would it all just be mixed in with school funds?
Secondary College;
6
10
I don’t know.
Yes.
But with any - - -
I don’t know if there was a descriptor on it to
identify it, I don’t.
MR HILL:
Yes.
Or any letter that would – or email that would
29
precede it, or follow it for that matter, alerting you to
30
the fact that X amount of dollars had been paid into your
1811
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
2
3
4
account for the specific purpose of paying out - - MR VIRTUE:
No.
I can’t recall seeing any letter to that
effect.
MR HILL:
Was there – up to 2007, had there been more than
5
just the one payment in as a result of Mr Napoli’s
6
agreement with you, or had there been more than one
7
payment?
8
9
10
11
MR VIRTUE:
Don’t know.
Again, the business manager was –
from my point of view, this was a procedural matter, so
it was the business manager who was dealing with it.
MR HILL:
Could we have page 65 on the screen, please.
RS
12
Media Productions – it’s a little hard to read.
13
tax invoice dated 6 June 2008 to Parkwood Secondary
14
College, Ringwood;
15
you;
16
dealings with RS Media Productions other than the payment
17
of this invoice?
the principal Vin Virtue, so clearly
it’s for $5500.
18
MR VIRTUE:
19
MR HILL:
20
MR VIRTUE:
21
MR HILL:
It’s a
Did you have, at that time, any
No.
Did you receive any goods from RS Media Productions?
No.
Could we have please page 64 on the screen and if we
22
could just scroll down and stop there.
This is an email
23
that you would not have seen at the time but it’s from
24
Nino Napoli to Daniel and we know Daniel to be Daniel
25
Calleja who was running a business at that time called RS
26
Media Productions and Mr Napoli says:
27
Daniel, I was wanting to clear up some accounts at
28
work before the end of the financial year.
29
had in mind is for you to invoice me for the
30
corrections to my presentation that you’re about to
1812
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
What I
DISCUSSION
1
do.
2
ie, the Department, my attention, for correction and
3
finalise SRP 2008 presentation and animations.
4
The invoices should be as follows.
And a dollar sign – 3300, including GST.
(1) DECD,
Then (2):
5
Parkwood Secondary College in Ringwood, the
6
principal, Vin Virtue.
7
staff for the design and animation and presentation
8
of SRP analysis, five days contract, consultancy,
9
5000K, plus GST.
This is for engagement of
Please write invoice on your
10
letterhead and send to me at my home email and I will
11
print.
Speak to me if not clear of the arrangements.
12
If you had known those details when you got that invoice,
13
it would have caused alarm bells to sound loudly, would
14
it not?
15
MR VIRTUE:
16
MR HILL:
17
MR VIRTUE:
18
MR HILL:
19
MR VIRTUE:
20
MR HILL:
Yes.
There’s a number of things wrong - - Yes.
- - - immediately, is there not?
Yes.
Clearly, at the very least, Mr Napoli is asking this
21
person, Daniel, to create an invoice for work that hasn’t
22
been done.
23
MR VIRTUE:
24
MR HILL:
25
26
27
28
Yes.
And for which your school had no interest, had not
commissioned in any way and never received anything.
MR VIRTUE:
That’s right.
That’s right.
Absolutely.
And
I’ve - - MR HILL:
I just wonder with your wealth of experience within
29
the Department of Education, Mr Virtue, as to whether you
30
have any comment about a senior officer within the
1813
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
Department such as Mr Napoli using his private email
2
address.
3
MR VIRTUE:
4
MR HILL:
5
MR VIRTUE:
Have a look at that.
It’s - - -
Yes, I saw that.
- - - nnapoli@bigpond.net.au.
Well, no, it’s not – I’ve never seen that practice
6
before.
The Department has an Edumail system and the
7
Department’s offices conduct business via that Edumail
8
system.
9
to be Department business conducted through a private
To my knowledge, I have never seen what appears
10
email and if I had seen a private email address to me, I
11
would have immediately – by a department officer – I
12
would have immediately questioned it.
13
MR HILL:
And the reason that department business is conducted
14
through the official department Edu email system is so
15
that it can be audited, checked.
16
MR VIRTUE:
17
MR HILL:
18
MR VIRTUE:
19
MR HILL:
20
MR VIRTUE:
21
MR HILL:
22
23
24
25
26
Correct.
It’s – it’s a record.
And some process of control - - Yes.
- - - exercised.
Yes.
Yes.
It’s a lot more difficult to do those sorts of
tasks when it’s coming from someone’s home email address.
MR VIRTUE:
And – and – and to an officer of the Department,
it immediately indicates it has no status.
MR HILL:
Yes.
And that’s something that had you known it
would have leapt out to you - - -
27
MR VIRTUE:
28
MR HILL:
29
MR VIRTUE:
30
MR HILL:
Absolutely, yes.
Absolutely.
- - - perhaps more so than poor grammar or spelling.
Yes, yes.
Or the same name or telephone numbers but that would
1814
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
have leapt out at you as something - - -
2
MR VIRTUE:
3
MR HILL:
4
MR VIRTUE:
5
MR HILL:
Yes.
- - - that was clearly not right.
Clearly not right.
Yes.
Yes.
Could we have just page – I’m not taking you
6
to all of them, Mr Virtue.
7
there’s a large number of invoices that have gone through
8
your school.
9
10
MR VIRTUE:
MR HILL:
You will appreciate that
Yes.
Yes.
And I think you described it as the tip of the
11
iceberg the ones that were shown to you by the IBAC
12
investigators.
13
14
15
MR VIRTUE:
At – at that stage, that’s how I felt and that’s
how I described it.
MR HILL:
Yes.
Could we have page 67, please.
On The Ball
16
Personnel Australasia Proprietary Limited, tax invoice.
17
Perhaps a little bit more professionally done than the
18
ones we’ve seen to date with the exception that this one
19
doesn’t have a date on it but it’s for $3850 for the
20
engagement of administrative support and temporary staff
21
for the months of April and May 2008.
22
dealings, your school, with On The Ball Personnel - - -
23
MR VIRTUE:
24
MR HILL:
25
MR VIRTUE:
26
MR HILL:
Did you have any
No.
- - - Australasia Proprietary Limited?
No.
Did you have to engage administrative support and
27
temporary staff at any time, let alone during the months
28
of April and May 2008?
29
30
MR VIRTUE:
As a school principal, there would have been
occasions when I would have employed temporary
1815
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
administrative staff, yes.
2
MR HILL:
3
MR VIRTUE:
4
5
6
7
And how did you employ that temporary staff?
My business manager would have undertaken that
task.
MR HILL:
Would you have used a personnel agency such as On
The Ball?
MR VIRTUE:
Probably not.
We would have used a network of
8
known people who had been business managers or office
9
staff in the past who were available for short term
10
11
vacancies.
MR HILL:
Can we take it that in respect to On The Ball
12
Personnel, you made no inquiries and were told nothing
13
other than to pay the invoice?
14
MR VIRTUE:
15
MR HILL:
Exactly.
You were not told, for example, that the person
16
behind On The Ball Personnel was a Sharon Vandermeer who
17
in turn was the former sister-in-law of Nino Napoli?
18
“Napoli”, I should say.
19
MR VIRTUE:
20
MR HILL:
21
22
23
No.
No.
Again, do you have any recollection of how this tax
invoice came to your school?
MR VIRTUE:
I’m not sure what you’re asking me.
In what form
- - -
24
MR HILL:
25
MR VIRTUE:
26
MR HILL:
Well, did it come by email or - - No, I don’t.
Right.
I’m assuming they came by post.
There must have been some conversation
27
ongoing between you and Mr Napoli in respect to the
28
payment of these items.
29
MR VIRTUE:
30
MR HILL:
No.
No, there wasn’t.
Well, how would you have known to pay this item,
1816
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
2
this invoice for $3850?
MR VIRTUE:
My assumption was – I had seen On The Ball as a
3
company over time associated with payments I was making
4
to the centre but I – and my assumption was simply that
5
this was another one of them.
6
7
MR HILL:
school, you would have paid it, would you, if - - -
8
MR VIRTUE:
9
MR HILL:
10
So if I made up a tax invoice and sent it to your
No.
If it sounded – using some education department
jargon that it was for administrative staff?
11
MR VIRTUE:
12
MR HILL:
No.
Why would you not have paid it?
13
and sent it to you?
14
this one.
15
MR VIRTUE:
No.
If had made one up
Because that’s what you did with
My recollection is that there had been
16
earlier on the On The Ball invoices, and when I was going
17
through them – I presume I made an assumption that this
18
was one that Nino had put through to me.
19
anything there to suggest that it was.
20
MR HILL:
21
MR VIRTUE:
22
MR HILL:
23
24
I can’t see
But you didn’t check at that time?
No, I didn’t.
Nor did you check whether there was sufficient funds
in the account to pay it?
MR VIRTUE:
I wasn’t aware that there were insufficient funds,
25
and I wasn’t alerted to that fact.
26
to me, ..... had been processed through the school, and
27
there’s a payment authorisation slip on the front with a
28
descriptor.
29
descriptor than the invoice under it.
30
MR HILL:
By the time this came
I would be more likely to look at that
Are you referring to a payment order form?
1817
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
MR VIRTUE:
2
MR HILL:
3
Yes.
But the payment order form in this case has been
written after the invoice has been received.
4
MR VIRTUE:
5
MR HILL:
6
MR VIRTUE:
7
MR HILL:
8
MR VIRTUE:
9
MR HILL:
Yes.
And that’s unusual in itself.
Yes, it is.
Yes.
Yes?
Yes.
Can I just show you one further email, page 66,
10
please.
11
attachments part.
12
them, but subject, On The Ball Personnel Invoices, and
13
it’s between – the email, between On The Ball Personnel,
14
Mr Napoli at his Big Pond - - -
15
MR VIRTUE:
16
MR HILL:
17
MR VIRTUE:
18
MR HILL:
19
MR VIRTUE:
20
MR HILL:
Could we just go up so we can see the
I’m not going to take you to each of
Yes
- - - email address, you see that?
Yes.
You with me so far?
Yes.
The attachments are for Carranballac Secondary
21
College, Chandler Primary School, Kings Park Primary
22
School, Moonee Ponds Primary School, Parkwood Secondary
23
College.
24
MR VIRTUE:
25
MR HILL:
Yes.
“Please find attached invoices for payment.
26
there is any changes needed please let me know.”
27
would have set alarm bells ringing?
28
MR VIRTUE:
29
MR HILL:
30
If
That
Yes, it did.
When you say it did, you didn’t see that until an
investigator showed it to you?
1818
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
MR VIRTUE:
No.
No, when I saw it – at the time I saw it was
2
when the investigator showed it to me.
3
indicating to me – up until that time my understanding
4
was that I would paying the total bills that were being
5
incurred .....
6
I didn’t know what the total figures were, and that
7
alarmed me.
8
9
MR HILL:
When I saw that, what I realised was that
Because you could think of no legitimate reason
- - -
10
MR VIRTUE:
11
MR HILL:
12
What it was
No.
- - - why it’s being split over, is it five or six
schools?
13
MR O’BRYAN:
14
MR HILL:
15
MR VIRTUE:
Five schools.
Five schools.
I could see no reason at all.
But beyond that, I
16
was also, once I saw that, I became aware that my
17
assumption that the amounts of money I was being asked to
18
pay was the total amount that was being paid was in fact
19
incorrect.
20
MR HILL:
21
MR VIRTUE:
Yes.
And so at that point I realised I had no
22
understanding of how much money was being paid out of the
23
central office account, in this case to On The Ball.
24
that alarmed me greatly.
25
MR HILL:
26
MR VIRTUE:
27
MR HILL:
28
And
And again, we have the private - - Yes.
And again – yes.
- - - email address conducting substantial
department business.
29
MR VIRTUE:
30
MR HILL:
And I made the point I think - - Yes.
1819
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
MR VIRTUE:
2
MR HILL:
- - - to the investigators that that was - - Now, just before we break for the afternoon, sadly
3
we’re going to have to ask you to come back tomorrow.
4
Doesn’t interfere too much with your plans, but in 2009,
5
you moved to the Norwood Secondary College.
6
MR VIRTUE:
7
MR HILL:
Yes.
And sadly, I think we have referred it in – to it in
8
the past as the Norwood Primary School, and if there is a
9
Norwood Primary School we apologise.
And I just wonder
10
if we can have the graphic up, please.
11
amended to the Norwood secondary college between 1
12
January 2007 and 31 March 2014.
13
these invoices tomorrow in part at least, but they’re
14
invoices paid by that school, and you can take it at the
15
time that you were the principal, in respect to not only
16
On The Ball Personnel, not only Encino, but two other
17
entities that are directly connected with Mr Napoli.
18
MR VIRTUE:
19
MR HILL:
Yes.
Now, the question for you is this:
changed schools.
21
Norwood, yes?
MR VIRTUE:
23
MR HILL:
24
MR VIRTUE:
25
MR HILL:
And we will come to
Yes.
20
22
And that has been
Yes.
you have
You have gave gone from Parkwood to
Yes.
Mr Napoli seems to have followed you.
Yes.
Can you offer any reason as to why he would follow
26
you from one school to the next to have you pay these
27
invoices?
28
MR VIRTUE:
My only explanation is that at that time I
29
understood why he was making the payments through a
30
school account.
The school at Parkwood had an assistant
1820
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
principal, I think at that stage acting as principal.
2
And so it – as I understood it at the time, it was a
3
purely administrative arrangement.
4
5
6
MR HILL:
But why follow you from one school to the other
rather than stay at Parkwood, for example?
MR VIRTUE:
Well, without going back over what I said earlier,
7
I had an understanding of why I thought he would be using
8
a school to administer these funds, and I thought it was
9
convenient for him.
Having said that, it wasn’t
10
something I was paying – it wasn’t something that was
11
uppermost in my mind in terms of the operations of either
12
school.
13
14
15
16
17
18
MR HILL:
Napoli was to follow you from one school to the next?
MR VIRTUE:
MR HILL:
I don’t see it as curious given my
Do you think with hindsight it was because you were
compliant and not asking any questions?
MR VIRTUE:
20
MR HILL:
22
No, I don’t.
background and my past.
19
21
Do you not now see it as somewhat curious that Mr
I don’t know.
I wonder if that’s an appropriate time,
Commissioner, we will be a little - - MR O’BRYAN:
Yes, I wonder, because that has come on the
23
screen, in the context of questioning whether we
24
shouldn’t have tendered that sort of thing?
25
MR HILL:
26
MR O’BRYAN:
Could we – I think we should tender the - - I think we should.
Well, then the – we could
27
tender them as a bundle, or just the one that has come on
28
the screen, depending on - - -
29
30
MR HILL:
Could I tender, Commissioner, from document book 18,
pages 60 to 63, and 65 to 67.
1821
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
MR O’BRYAN:
2
MR HILL:
3
MR O’BRYAN:
4
EXHIBIT #153 PAGES 60-63 AND 65-67 FROM DOCUMENT BOOK 18
5
MR HILL:
6
As a bundle.
And then could tender - - Well, then, they will be marked exhibit 153.
And could we tender separately the graphic of the
Norwood Secondary College shown to the witness.
7
MR O’BRYAN:
8
EXHIBIT #154 GRAPHIC OF NORWOOD SECONDARY COLLEGE
9
MR O’BRYAN:
10
Yes.
Well, that will be marked exhibit 154.
And how much longer, for the benefit of Mr Virtue
and his legal representative?
11
MR HILL:
12
MR O’BRYAN:
Half to three-quarters of an hour.
Half to three.
All right.
Well, sorry, you
13
nearly got there today, but, if you don’t mind, we will
14
get you back tomorrow, Mr Virtue, to finish.
15
adjourn until 10 o’clock tomorrow.
16
We will
MATTER ADJOURNED at 4.05 pm UNTIL WEDNESDAY, 20 MAY 2015
17
1822
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION