TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
INDEPENDENT BROAD-BASED ANTI-CORRUPTION COMMISSION
MELBOURNE
TUESDAY 30 JUNE 2015 AT 10.02 AM
(26th day of examinations)
MR STEPHEN O’BRYAN, Commissioner
MR IAN HILL QC, Counsel Assisting
OPERATION ORD INVESTIGATION
PUBLIC EXAMINATIONS PURSUANT TO PART 6 OF THE INDEPENDENT
BROAD-BASED ANTI-CORRUPTION COMMISSION ACT 2011
AUSCRIPT
UNCLASSIFIED
1
2
MR O’BRYAN:
Now, is Ms Callister here this morning?
Good morning.
3
MS CALLISTER:
4
MR O’BRYAN:
5
Yes.
Yes, Commissioner.
Good morning, Ms Callister.
You’re represented
this morning by Mr Thomas.
6
MR HILL:
And Ms Keating.
7
MR O’BRYAN:
Good morning, Mr Thomas.
8
through the preliminaries.
9
video recorded.
And I will just go
This examination is to be
Please commence the recording.
Today’s
10
date is 30 June 2015 and the time is 10.03 am.
My name
11
is Stephen O’Bryan.
12
under powers delegated to me by instrument dated 5
13
September 2013, a copy of which has already been marked
14
exhibit 1 in this investigation.
I am conducting this examination
15
The examination is being held and conducted under
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part 6 of the Independent Broad-based Anti-corruption
17
Commission Act 2011 as part of an investigation under
18
part 3 of that Act.
19
attention Ms Callister and to Mr Thomas’ attention that
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this examination is inquisitorial in nature which means
21
that I’m not bound by the rules of evidence and I can
22
regulate the conduct of the examination in such ways as I
23
consider appropriate.
24
I take this opportunity to draw your
The examination is open to the public and, Mr Thomas,
25
of course, you will be extended an opportunity at the
26
conclusion of the questioning by Mr Hill to ask Ms
27
Callister any questions you feel could clarify any
28
answers she gives.
29
you of nondisclosure requirements which apply to you.
30
I’m required, Mr Thomas, to inform
You may not disclose the restricted matters specified
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DISCUSSION
1
in the confidentiality notice received by your client
2
dated 28 January 2015 to any person while the notice has
3
effect.
4
specified in the confidentiality notice in accordance
5
with the direction or authorisation given by me or
6
another appropriately qualified IBAC officer or for the
7
purposes of complying with the legal duty of disclosure
8
or a professional obligation arising from your
9
professional representation.
10
You may disclose the restricted matters
I will ask you at this stage, Ms Callister, to enter
11
the witness box, please.
Please be seated.
Ms
12
Callister, I require you to either take an oath or to
13
make an affirmation.
14
prefer?
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MS CALLISTER:
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MR O’BRYAN:
17
GILLIAN ANNE CALLISTER, AFFIRMED
18
MR O’BRYAN:
Which of those two options do you
I will take an affirmation, Commissioner.
Yes.
[10.05 pm]
Now, the procedure is that Mr Hill will question
19
you on matters relevant to the subject matter of the
20
investigation and I may also ask you some questions and,
21
as you’ve heard, I will extend to Mr Thomas the
22
opportunity to ask you any questions he feels could
23
clarify any answers you give.
24
of the nature of the matters in respect of which you are
25
to be asked questions.
26
I’m required to advise you
They are to give evidence here in relation to your
27
knowledge of matters the subject of the scope and purpose
28
described in the preliminary information and directions
29
for public examinations in Operation Ord.
30
provide to information regarding relevant policies and
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Also to
G.A. CALLISTER
1
procedures, the culture within the Department of
2
Education and Training, and what actions have or are
3
likely to take place to address the issues arising from
4
this investigation.
5
Ms Callister, at the time you were served with the
6
summons, did you receive a document titled Section
7
121(3)(c) Statement of Rights and Obligations?
8
MS CALLISTER:
9
MR O’BRYAN:
10
Yes, I did.
And has that been explained to you by Mr Thomas
or another lawyer?
11
MS CALLISTER:
12
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes, thank you.
Thank you.
Finally, because this investigation
13
involves a protected disclosure, I’m required to advise
14
both you, Ms Callister, and Mr Thomas of two matters.
15
First, you would be committing a criminal offence if you
16
disclose the content or information about the content of
17
the disclosure.
18
criminal offence if you disclose information likely to
19
lead to the identification of the person who made the
20
disclosure.
21
Secondly, you would also be committing a
That assumes of course that you know those things
22
which you may not.
Ms Callister, you may disclose the
23
content or information about the content of the
24
disclosure to Mr Thomas for the purposes of obtaining
25
legal advice or as part of your representation here.
26
otherwise satisfied that the limited exceptions which
27
would allow such disclosures do not apply in this case
28
and I do not allow disclosure for any other purpose.
I’m
29
Mr Thomas, you may disclose such information for the
30
purposes of complying with a legal duty of disclosure or
3887
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a professional obligation arising from your professional
2
relationship with your client.
3
examination will now commence and I authorise Mr Hill to
4
conduct it.
5
6
MR HILL:
8
MR HILL:
And you attend
you.
12
MR HILL:
Yes, Mr Hill.
And that summons was numbered SC1501.
I will have
some documents handed to you.
14
MS CALLISTER:
15
MR HILL:
Thank you.
And I think you will see a copy of the summons
numbered SC1501.
17
MS CALLISTER:
18
MR HILL:
19
MS CALLISTER:
20
MR HILL:
21
MS CALLISTER:
22
MR HILL:
23
Thank you.
here today in response to a summons that was served upon
MS CALLISTER:
16
Gillian Anne Callister is my full name.
Gillian Anne Callister.
11
13
Ms Callister, is your full
name Gill Callister?
MS CALLISTER:
10
Mr Hill.
Thank you, Commissioner.
7
9
Having said that, the
Yes.
And that was served on you just recently.
Yes.
And you agreed to the short service of that summons.
I did.
Thank you.
And you were previously served with a
confidentiality notice dated 28 January 2015.
24
MS CALLISTER:
25
MR HILL:
Yes.
And with the summons, did you receive a document
26
titled Section 121, subsection (3)(c), Statement of
27
Rights and Obligations.
28
MS CALLISTER:
29
MR HILL:
30
Yes, I did.
And in addition a covering letter dated 26 June
2015.
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MS CALLISTER:
2
MR HILL:
3
Yes, I did.
And are the four documents before you copies of what
was served upon you?
4
MS CALLISTER:
Yes.
5
MR HILL:
6
MR O’BRYAN:
7
EXHIBIT #311 SUMMONS SC1501, CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE DATED
I tender those, Commissioner.
Yes.
They will be marked exhibit 311.
8
28/01/2015, SECTION 121(3)(c) STATEMENT OF RIGHTS AND
9
OBLIGATIONS, COVERING LETTER DATED 26 JUNE 2015
10
11
MR HILL:
Ms Callister, you are the secretary of the
Department of Education and Training.
12
MS CALLISTER:
13
MR HILL:
14
15
16
17
Yes.
And could we commence with some of your background.
Firstly, what formal academic qualifications do you hold?
MS CALLISTER:
I hold a Bachelor of Arts degree and a Bachelor
of Social Work degree with honours.
MR HILL:
And could you tell us just something briefly about
18
your work experience leading up to your appointment as
19
secretary of the Department of Education and Training.
20
MS CALLISTER:
So prior to my appointment as secretary of
21
Department of Education and Training, I was secretary of
22
the Department of Human Services which has now merged
23
with the Department of Health so is now called the
24
Department of Health and Human Services.
25
secretary of that Department for five years.
26
that, I’ve worked in a number of senior deputy secretary
27
and other executive roles across mostly the health and
28
human services sphere, mental health, drugs, disability,
29
child protection.
30
But I was
Prior to
Headed the child protection program in this state for
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quite a long time.
2
operational roles, so regional type roles running service
3
delivery and working backwards, I spent about the first
4
10 years of my career as a social worker in nongovernment
5
organisations.
6
7
MR HILL:
I’ve worked in a number of senior
So for how long now is it that you’ve been at the
Department of Education and Training?
8
MS CALLISTER:
9
MR HILL:
Approximately six months.
And you commenced six months ago as the secretary.
10
MS CALLISTER:
11
MR HILL:
12
MS CALLISTER:
13
MR HILL:
14
MS CALLISTER:
That’s right.
Right.
So you went straight into the top job.
That’s right.
Yes.
So the government changed in November and I was
15
told I would be appointed as secretary as of January so I
16
retained secretary of Human Services for approximately a
17
month.
18
MR HILL:
19
MS CALLISTER:
20
MR HILL:
21
2015.
Now, you’ve prepared a 94-page statement.
Which you’ve signed and I think it’s dated 29 June
That is you’ve signed and dated it yesterday.
22
MS CALLISTER:
23
MR HILL:
24
No, you don’t.
We
will make - - MS CALLISTER:
26
MR HILL:
I think Mr Thomas has the original.
Thank you.
Could I hand to you the original of your
statement.
28
MS CALLISTER:
29
MR HILL:
30
That’s right.
And do you have the original?
25
27
Yes.
Thank you.
And can I just ask you this.
In respect to that
statement, are the contents true and correct to the best
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2
3
of your skill, ability and knowledge in preparing it?
MS CALLISTER:
To the best of my knowledge they
are true and correct.
4
MR HILL:
5
MR O’BRYAN:
6
Absolutely.
Yes.
I tender that statement, Commissioner.
Yes.
The witness’ statement, signed on 29 June
2015 will be marked exhibit 312.
7
EXHIBIT #312 WITNESS STATEMENT DATED 29/06/2015
8
MR HILL:
9
Ms Callister, as the secretary of the department, no
doubt, and we know you have by reading your statement,
10
you have been following the hearing of Operation Ord over
11
the last few weeks?
12
MS CALLISTER:
13
MR HILL:
14
MS CALLISTER:
15
MR HILL:
16
MS CALLISTER:
17
MR HILL:
Yes.
You have been reading the transcripts?
Yes.
And - - Yes.
Not all of them, but yes.
And no doubt people have reported to you what has
18
been happening with the IBAC inquiry and hearing known as
19
Operation Ord?
20
MS CALLISTER:
21
MR HILL:
Yes?
Yes.
Can we ask you this:
Do you – as a result of what
22
you have learnt over the last few months from Operation
23
Ord, do you have any preliminary comment as secretary
24
that you would like to make at this stage?
25
MS CALLISTER:
Thank you, Mr Hill.
I do have probably two
26
main comments.
One, I do – I want to acknowledge the
27
work of IBAC in uncovering this corruption in the
28
Department of Education because clearly without the work
29
that IBAC has done to prepare for these hearings and then
30
to expose this, when we had not been able to find this
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and it may have persisted.
2
how important that has been for the department, and for
3
the public sector more broadly.
4
to take some very decisive action against a number of
5
clearly corrupt officials in the department.
6
So I do want to acknowledge
And that has allowed me
The other thing, however, that it has really led to
7
is for the department to look more deeply at some of the
8
systemic weaknesses that have become apparent in a number
9
of areas financial – areas of – a whole range of things
10
in overseas travel, conflicts of interest.
11
those – a number of those practises and system weaknesses
12
highlight that there are areas where we would not
13
withstand public scrutiny, and where – while not
14
necessarily defined as corrupt, they’re on something of a
15
slippery slope towards behaviour that would not be
16
considered acceptable and where there’s no accountability
17
and transparency.
18
important opportunities that the hearings and the
19
investigation has afforded, as well as uncovering
20
corruption that we clearly haven’t been able to find.
21
MR HILL:
And I think
And to me, this is one of the most
One of the matters that you referred to you in your
22
detailed statement at paragraph 212, and I’m not certain
23
whether we have the ability to put it on the screen – the
24
paragraph numbers may have changed.
25
put page 42 of Ms Callister’s statement on the screen,
26
and we will see.
27
Keep going.
28
your statement is this:
29
shown, the conclusions reached by RTK” – and RTK was the
30
resolutions – RTK ..... check control report I think it
But could we just
If we could just scroll down please.
Paragraph 212, one of the things you note in
“As the IBAC hearings have
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was called?
2
MS CALLISTER:
3
MR HILL:
That’s – I believe so, yes.
Yes.
“As the IBAC hearings have shown, the
4
conclusions reached by RTK were not sound.
It is now
5
clear that the department suffered from serious
6
structural and cultural problems.
7
power was vested in a coterie of senior executives:
8
Messrs Rosewarne, Napoli, Allman and Fraser whose span of
9
control was too great.
Put sharply, too much
Accountabilities were poorly
10
defined, oversight mechanisms were inadequate, and
11
perhaps more significantly, there was a clear perception
12
that the actions of any individual whether whistle-
13
blowing, dissenting or otherwise would not bring about
14
change.”
15
And earlier at paragraph 204 you make, again,
16
reference to the public examinations providing “an
17
opportunity to reflect on the department’s values and
18
culture, both historically and today”, and that “the
19
evidence suggests and unhealthy network had developed
20
within the department in which favours were done for
21
mates.
22
and accountability for non-compliance with policy and
23
procedure in relation to dealing with public funds.”
24
at paragraph 206: “The network was driven in part by
25
select deputy secretaries and acting secretary Mr
26
Rosewarne.
27
sense of entitlement about the use of public moneys for
28
personal purposes”.
29
30
There appears to have been a lack of consequence
And
The evidence from Mr Rosewarne reflected a
Just in respect to those sentiments which are in your
statement, can you give us any indication from your
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1
wealth of experience in the public sector as to how that
2
could occur, and why it occurred in the education
3
department?
4
MS CALLISTER:
Yes, I can try.
I mean, to the best of my
5
ability, because really, the behaviour of some of these
6
people with the level of experience they had and the
7
level of responsibility they had is strikingly appalling.
8
I think there were clear issues about span of control, so
9
there was way too much control and power invested in
10
single people who then didn’t have – there were not
11
adequate accountability mechanisms to both check and
12
monitor that and hold them accountable for that.
13
was clearly collusion between people, and for whatever
14
reason, the people that tried to say something about that
15
were able to be marginalised, and in many cases left the
16
department altogether.
There
17
It is somewhat extraordinary that that could continue
18
in a department sitting alongside all of the other senior
19
executives, you know, secretaries and other bodies in
20
- - -
21
MR HILL:
The chief financial officer, for example.
22
MS CALLISTER:
Yes, the chief financial officer.
So there are
23
– yes, there – so the chief financial officer holds some
24
particular responsibilities in relation to the oversight
25
of finance functions in the Department.
26
MR HILL:
You see, it appears to us that if – you can sort of
27
understand why something occurs.
28
problem and make certain it doesn’t occur again.
29
MS CALLISTER:
30
MR HILL:
It’s easier to fix the
Yes.
And this hearing is not all about, as you would
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appreciate, the program coordinator schools or banker
2
schools.
3
culture of the place.
4
MS CALLISTER:
5
MR HILL:
I think as you’ve rightly said, it’s about the
Yes, yes.
How is it that you propose, just briefly, to set
6
about to change the culture to make certain that this
7
type of behaviour and sense of entitlement is eliminated?
8
9
MS CALLISTER:
Yes.
So we need to – I have a zero tolerance
approach to corrupt behaviour and to any corruption
10
occurring in the Department, and that needs to be said
11
from the top and modelled and led.
12
there isn’t any single answer to this.
13
of strategies.
14
independent advice through the course of the hearings.
15
We’ve been getting good independent advice about how to
16
reorganise our financial systems and have far greater
17
accountability.
18
But having said that,
We need a series
We need – we’ve had a lot of good
And part of that is abolishing the program
19
coordinator schools as they currently exist.
As you
20
rightly point out, there is a cultural problem in the
21
Department and we need a stronger approach to an
22
integrity and accountability culture, and that needs to
23
flow all the way from the senior executives through to
24
our schools, to our principals, our school councils, so
25
that we’re accountable to our school communities as well
26
as the broader community.
27
that I intend to take to model and develop a stronger
28
integrity culture across the Department and some of that
29
will be about the things that I made in my opening
30
comments about some of the systemic weaknesses that are I
And there are many actions
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think leading still to a culture of entitlement about
2
certain things.
3
We need clearly, and it has been shown again and
4
again in the hearings, that some of our key people don’t
5
have the skills and the abilities to do some of their
6
roles.
7
support that we provide to our principals, to the
8
business managers, to the school councils, to some of our
9
senior people to ensure that they have the right
So we need to look at the suite of training and
10
abilities to not just provide school leadership, in the
11
case of principals, but to be able to manage their
12
schools appropriately.
13
at a number of structural changes in the Department, in
14
particular a new regional support model because I’m very
15
conscious that purely attending training doesn’t
16
necessarily change some of people’s behaviour.
And we have a new – I’m looking
17
And we need to then embed capabilities that change
18
the way and strengthen the way people can manage their
19
responsibilities.
20
about how we can change some of our models of financial
21
oversight so that we don’t invest in a single person, as
22
was invested in Nino Napoli, such a great deal of power
23
and control.
24
oversight from the chief financial officer all the way to
25
the head of finance need to be strengthened and changed.
26
MR HILL:
We’ve got some good independent advice
But having said that, the levels of
One of the concerns is the 2010 audit and review
27
into program coordinator schools, with which you’re
28
familiar - - -
29
MS CALLISTER:
30
MR HILL:
Yes.
- - - made certain damning findings and made some
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sensible recommendations.
2
MS CALLISTER:
3
MR HILL:
I think you would agree.
I do.
It seems for various reasons management chose,
4
principally I think through Mr Rosewarne, to, in effect,
5
sit on that report once it became available to management
6
for many, many months but critically thereafter the
7
report doesn’t seem to have been acted upon.
8
9
MS CALLISTER:
I think that’s absolutely right.
I think it
was – there was some cosmetic actions taken, and I’ve
10
outlined some of those in the statement.
11
not properly implemented.
12
supposed cosmetic changes were made by the very person
13
who had the greatest investment in maintaining the system
14
which was Nino Napoli.
15
a report like that there should have been significant
16
oversight in a more senior way in finance.
17
financial officer, the head of finance should have been
18
oversighting the implementation of those changes.
19
should have had, you know, on reflection, then audit come
20
and monitor whether the changes had actually been made.
21
And the overall effect was that there was no change, and
22
really there was no implementation of any change.
23
we’ve done a further audit, as I think you know, in 2015
24
- - -
25
MR HILL:
26
MS CALLISTER:
But they were
Ironically, a lot of those
But perhaps, most critically, for
So the chief
And we
2015.
- - - which we brought forward when we knew the
27
scope of the IBAC hearings.
28
– all of the problems persisted and potentially got
29
worse.
30
MR HILL:
And
That clearly shows that the
Clearly the 2010 audit didn’t reveal any actual
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1
fraud or corruption, although from the reading of the
2
report it was clear that the authors were saying that the
3
Department was ripe for such activity and it wouldn’t
4
have taken much in the way of imagination or effort by
5
others if they had furthered the report to have found the
6
fraud and corruption that was actually ongoing.
7
agree?
8
MS CALLISTER:
Look, I do agree.
Do you
We’ve had further
9
independent advice during the course of the hearings from
10
both Protiviti and Deloitte about the fact that if we had
11
taken – if the Department had taken further steps at that
12
time, that it may have been possible to start to uncover
13
some of these actions.
14
if there had been more rigorous actions taken, we may
15
well have uncovered it.
16
piece of assurance on our 2015 audit and try to bring all
17
of this together, and again say at that time there should
18
have been further investigations as to whether fraud was
19
occurring.
20
MR HILL:
So Protiviti certainly feel that
We have – Deloitte have done a
That inactivity on the Department’s behalf for those
21
four years, perhaps five years between 2010 to 2014/15,
22
the blame for that, if blame be the right word, must
23
start at the secretary and go right through the
24
executives of the Department.
25
MS CALLISTER:
Well, yes, that – the secretary, the senior –
26
the senior executive, the secretary, myself currently,
27
and the deputy secretaries hold responsibility for how
28
the Department is run and managed.
29
know, there is a senior executive service in whom
30
delegations and various responsibilities are invested.
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Having said that, you
G.A. CALLISTER
1
However, it is the role of the senior executive of the
2
Department to ensure that all of those behaviours and
3
actions in executives – that executives are taking are
4
being done responsibly and appropriately, and to take
5
action where that doesn’t occur.
6
a number of occasions in the course of my tenure as
7
secretary previously.
8
9
MR HILL:
And I have done that on
You say that, effectively, in an endeavour to change
the culture and perhaps integrity of the – or improve the
10
integrity of the Department, in effect, those persons
11
with information such as whistleblowers or people who
12
wish to make complaints will perhaps be listened to more
13
carefully.
14
MS CALLISTER:
Absolutely I do.
We don’t, in fact, have a
15
clear whistleblower policy in the Department and one of
16
the actions coming out of this is to ensure that we do.
17
And as I – some of the evidence that’s been heard here
18
and certainly some of the discussions that I’ve had with
19
both current and past members of staff in the Department
20
is that there were plenty of people who were concerned
21
about the culture and who were ignored.
22
MR HILL:
I think you’ve sort of pre-empted one of my
23
questions, but clearly there wasn’t a whistleblower
24
policy within the Department.
25
MS CALLISTER:
26
MR HILL:
You’ve recognised that.
Yes.
What plans do you have for encouraging and
27
supporting people who might come within that definition
28
of whistleblower?
29
30
MS CALLISTER:
Structurally I plan to create an integrity
division that reports to me and that will have audit and
3899
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– and a number of other functions in it.
2
where the whistleblower work will be done.
3
of the most important things about policies like that is
4
giving people confidence about how to actually – how to
5
actually do it and confidence that they will be listened
6
to.
7
And that is
I think one
So sending out, you know, written circulars and
8
putting things on websites is not sufficient, you have to
9
engage with staff, give them examples, talk, give people
10
confidence that they will be listened to and that they
11
will be protected.
12
implementation strategy that also goes all the way into
13
our schools is really important.
14
So I think a fairly deep
Again, some of the things that have come through the
15
hearings is as issues have been raised about business
16
managers, further information has come to the Department
17
about, “Well, we – we’re all worried about X or Y,” and
18
we clearly haven’t had a culture where people felt they
19
could come and say that.
20
MR HILL:
Yes.
There seems on the evidence, in my opinion at
21
least, to be a bit of a divide between those that work in
22
the Department and those that are principals or teachers
23
or business managers.
24
if it exists?
25
MS CALLISTER:
Do you see that as being a problem
Yes, I agree that there is a divide and I agree
26
that it’s a problem because I think we have to have
27
confidence in our government school system.
28
to think of it as a system that has both individuality in
29
it because schools are different, but has some common
30
commitments and accountabilities to the public as a
3900
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And we have
G.A. CALLISTER
1
system.
2
One of the problems that we have is that we have
3
eroded our regional support model considerably.
4
some of that was done to actually – my predecessor did,
5
you know, do some work trying to stop some of what was
6
the very poor behaviour and some of that corrupt
7
behaviour in regionals, but in course of that I think we
8
have eroded the capability of our regions and we don’t
9
have a strong regional connection model with our schools.
10
Now,
And we are currently out consulting with our schools
11
about what a new regional model looks like.
12
government has a commitment to building a new regional
13
support model that connects the Department and schools
14
far more effectively.
15
vehicles for some of these changes as well – as well as
16
other educational changes that the government has asked
17
the – wants to make.
18
19
20
21
MR HILL:
And that will be one of the
In respect to the new integrity committee that will
report directly to you - - MS CALLISTER:
Which I chair the integrity – which I chair the
integrity committee.
22
MR HILL:
23
MS CALLISTER:
24
And the
Yes.
And there is a new – I will establish a new
integrity division that will report to me.
25
MR HILL:
Will that be staffed fulltime?
26
MS CALLISTER:
27
MR HILL:
28
MS CALLISTER:
29
MR HILL:
30
MS CALLISTER:
Yes.
And - - That will have a senior executive leading it.
Who will be fulltime in that position?
Yes.
3901
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1
2
3
MR HILL:
And will be – will there be any people independent
of the Education Department on that committee?
MS CALLISTER:
There already is an independent member of the
4
committee who has a background in integrity matters and
5
what I intend to do with the integrity committee – sorry,
6
with the integrity division is to periodically bring
7
independent people to assist with pieces of work to
8
ensure a level of independence in how we implement and
9
take action on certain things.
10
MR HILL:
I don’t want to be mistaken by anyone because there
11
are and you would agree many very good principals and
12
teachers out there, but there are some who clearly need
13
retraining and some assistance.
14
MS CALLISTER:
15
MR HILL:
Yes.
How do you plan to perhaps retool the skills of some
16
of the principals and business managers who demonstrate
17
or have been demonstrated in this case who show a
18
complete lack of understanding of their obligations in
19
respect to public monies?
20
MS CALLISTER:
Yes.
Perhaps I can just pick up your first
21
point first, Mr Hill, and say I do believe the majority
22
of people out there want to do the right thing and want
23
to be seen as very accountable for how they deliver good
24
educational outcomes and – and account for public money.
25
It’s clear that – while we have a range of training
26
materials and development programs they’re very
27
discretionary.
28
managers who are less skilled or new we haven’t had a
29
differentiated model necessarily of how we help them
30
build their skill set in both, I guess, a mandated way,
And for those principals or business
3902
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G.A. CALLISTER
1
but also a supportive way.
2
3
So we will look at the range of – and I have put some
of them – a large number of them in the statement.
4
MR HILL:
Yes.
5
MS CALLISTER:
The sorts of things that both our business
6
managers and our principals need we will work with them
7
around how we actually make that less – more mandated,
8
but then through our new regional support model how we
9
help people actually then implement them.
10
11
12
13
How we take people from going to a training course to
actually then managing a budget appropriately.
MR HILL:
And presumably some thought will be given to
compulsory training.
14
MS CALLISTER:
15
MR HILL:
16
MS CALLISTER:
Yes.
And compulsory training in an ethical sense as well.
That – that has to be part of an integrity
17
culture, how we – how we take at the beginning the public
18
sector values which apply to principals and school
19
councils and teachers and build an integrity culture
20
based on those values.
21
And build that culture so that people understand how
22
that translates into a travel application, how that
23
translates into professional development going
24
interstate, how that translates into use of government
25
cars and procurement cards.
26
the more tangible things that lead to accountability.
27
28
MR HILL:
All of which are some of
We understand that there is a Victoria Public
Service Conduct of Conduct - - -
29
MS CALLISTER:
30
MR HILL:
Yes.
- - - that applies across the board to all public
3903
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G.A. CALLISTER
1
servants, but there doesn’t seem to be a code of conduct
2
designed for those that work within the education sector.
3
4
MS CALLISTER:
Well, in fact the Public Service Code of
Conduct does apply to teacher.
5
MR HILL:
Indeed it does - - -
6
MS CALLISTER:
7
MR HILL:
Yes.
- - - but there doesn’t seem to be one that’s more
8
direct.
9
MS CALLISTER:
Yes.
And what I want to do is take the base –
10
the Public Service Code of Conduct and Values and build
11
that into with any additional – additional things we may
12
need in to a code of conduct that resonates for teachers
13
and principals.
14
We also need to look at school councils and look at
15
whether we have any – whether we need to have any
16
legislative changes to clarify the roles and
17
accountabilities of school councils as well as their
18
capabilities because there is sometimes issues for them
19
as well in terms of their skill set to do the job that
20
we’re asking them to do.
21
But I think in a total governance sense,
22
understanding the role of school councils, the role of
23
principals, the role of the secretary and the minister in
24
a governing – sorry, the whole system is – is a very
25
critical piece.
26
MR HILL:
Can I say that I certainly agree with that because
27
school councils, I think you would agree with this
28
statement, play a very important role in the running our
29
schools.
30
MS CALLISTER:
They do.
3904
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G.A. CALLISTER
1
MR HILL:
Normally they are selected from parents of current
2
students or perhaps past students and may not, as you
3
say, have the skill set necessary simply because they are
4
a parent.
5
right word or they need in particular, do they not, the
6
provision of information and assistance?
7
MS CALLISTER:
8
MR HILL:
9
MS CALLISTER:
They need particular whether training is the
They do.
Yes.
They do and we’ve commenced a new program.
I
10
am checking here, yes.
11
program that we’re rolling out of better training and
12
support for school councils, but that has to be an
13
ongoing thing because as you point out it’s often current
14
parents and as their children leave the school they move
15
on, and so the council changes.
16
believe, under the Act to co-opt community
17
representatives who are not – who may be interested, but
18
are not necessarily current parents, and as we move to
19
our new regional support model, it may – this may be
20
something that we want to actively work with on schools
21
to build a bit more consistency from the local community
22
into councils.
23
embark on.
24
MR HILL:
We – we have commenced a new
There is the capacity, I
But this is some of the work we have to
In terms of legislative change, do you feel that you
25
need legislative change to give you, as the secretary,
26
more power to deal with those who are guilty of
27
misconduct or unprofessional conduct?
28
MS CALLISTER:
Yes.
I would like to be able to more swiftly
29
deal with some of the serious misconduct by some of the
30
school sector staff as swiftly as I have been able to
3905
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.A. CALLISTER
1
with the executive class.
2
anybody’s rights, but I do believe that currently there
3
are some impediments to being able to deal with serious
4
misconduct.
5
MR HILL:
6
MS CALLISTER:
I don’t want to take away
What are those impediments?
The impediments are in the legislation.
The
7
legislation requires – for example, there’s a number of
8
principals who are currently stood down.
9
requires a very – a long series of steps to be able to
The legislation
10
reach dismissal, and those steps are – in most cases will
11
take possibly longer than six months.
12
MR HILL:
Yes.
13
MS CALLISTER:
And will require further investigation when in
14
fact it’s pretty clear that the IBAC investigation is
15
sufficient.
16
MR HILL:
In respect to schools, as we understand it, they are
17
subject to audit, and so are the school council finances.
18
Is that your understanding?
19
MS CALLISTER:
20
MR HILL:
Yes, that’s my understanding.
But one of the concerns that seems to have come out
21
from the evidence here is that the audits of the schools
22
perhaps haven’t thrown up precisely what was happening in
23
the accounts of those schools.
24
aware that Mr Napoli was using various schools to – as
25
his own banker schools, if we could use that expression;
26
that he was putting money into those schools and then
27
invoices would arrive, and the school was paying those
28
invoices which were for services or goods not provided to
29
that school.
30
MS CALLISTER:
For example, you would be
Yes.
3906
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.A. CALLISTER
1
MR HILL:
But the audit process hasn’t picked that up.
Is
2
there any plan to perhaps beef up the audit process of
3
schools to look more closely at the accounts?
4
MS CALLISTER:
Yes.
So I have had some initial independent
5
advice, again from Deloitte about this, and about the
6
fact that it would have been very difficult for audit to
7
pick up on those invoices, and that more auditing may not
8
be the answer.
9
possibly broadening the audit, but also looking more
Possibly broadening the things – so
10
forensically and sampling a number of financial
11
transactions.
12
MR HILL:
Yes.
13
MS CALLISTER:
I would hope that we deal with this by
14
abolishing the program coordinator schools which is what
15
I have effectively done, and that we retrieve the money
16
that’s out there, and that any model of shared services
17
going forward is a completely new model established in a
18
different way.
19
20
21
22
MR HILL:
I think we heard yesterday that in terms of money
that’s out there, there may be two, $3 million.
MS CALLISTER:
Well, the chief financial officer gave that
evidence - - -
23
MR HILL:
Former.
24
MS CALLISTER:
Former chief financial officer.
Sorry, the former chief – yes, indeed.
The
25
former chief financial officer gave that response to a
26
question about what money was out there regionally.
27
There is actually about $12.5 million out there.
28
regional money is – that was placed there by regions is
29
about two and a half;
30
half that is central money, and then there’s about seven-
The
there’s about another two-and-a-
3907
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.A. CALLISTER
1
and-a-half which is for technical support, so this is
2
money contracted to private providers who send
3
technicians into schools to fix computers or make
4
computers work.
5
that money, except where we have contractual obligations
6
that we will have to honour for a period of time.
7
MR HILL:
8
MS CALLISTER:
9
10
11
We are in the process of retrieving all
Yes.
But it is significantly more money than was
mentioned yesterday.
MR HILL:
And that includes money left over from Mr Napoli’s
misdeeds?
12
MS CALLISTER:
13
MR HILL:
It may well.
Yes.
In respect to the audit of individual schools,
14
clearly as you say there could be sampling and more done
15
in respect to looking at the accounts in a forensic way.
16
Has there thought been given to, I think they’re called
17
business cards?
18
apparently, to the principal or business manager, or
19
anyone at the school who wants one?
20
MS CALLISTER:
21
MR HILL:
22
MS CALLISTER:
23
MR HILL:
24
MS CALLISTER:
Business expense cards that are given,
I’m not sure about your question, I’m sorry.
Sorry, purchasing cards.
Yes.
Or purchasing credit cards.
So the more we can have done on those cards the
25
better transparency we have because they appear in our
26
system.
27
understand it, we’re utilising those cards but with
28
controls over who can exercise them.
29
up in our system far more clearly than our current – the
30
current, kind of, way.
So we are moving to a system where, as I
3908
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
But that will show
G.A. CALLISTER
1
MR HILL:
2
MS CALLISTER:
3
MR HILL:
4
Presumably they too would be audited - - Yes.
- - - if a school, for example, such as Chandler
Park was undergoing a full audit.
5
MS CALLISTER:
6
MR HILL:
Yes.
And presumably, from what you have learnt through
7
this inquiry, there are some schools such as Chandler
8
Park that could very well have a forensic audit on not
9
only its purchasing expenses, but on its travel expenses.
10
MS CALLISTER:
Yes.
And one of the things I think I mentioned
11
in my statement is that we are – all the schools that
12
have been raised through the IBAC investigations, we will
13
undertake both an audit and a full investigation of a
14
whole range of activities at those schools as a matter of
15
priority.
16
17
MR HILL:
You refer in your statement to conflict of interest
- - -
18
MS CALLISTER:
19
MR HILL:
Yes.
- - - on a number of occasions.
And can you just
20
tell us briefly how you propose to deal with that
21
problem?
22
is going to happen, in particular, in respect to the
23
employment of family members by, say, school principals?
24
MS CALLISTER:
Is there going to be a register kept?
Yes.
And what
So I understand that the conflict of
25
interest policy was considerably strengthened a couple of
26
years ago, and that we did manage to get some significant
27
change in what was, I believe, more endemic than it is
28
now.
29
I know through my own discussions in the department that
30
we still have way too much conflict of interest through
But we have clearly heard through the hearings, and
3909
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.A. CALLISTER
1
the employment of family members without any transparency
2
about that.
3
where that is both appropriate and necessary, but it’s
4
how it’s going to be managed, and there are many other
5
instances where it actually just needs to be stamped out.
6
Obviously there is going to be occasions
So yes, we will keep a register.
Principals are
7
required to sign – to annually declare a conflict of
8
interest document, but I think yes, we need to develop a
9
register, and we need – it’s clearly not seen in many
10
places as a problem.
11
is within the scope and purview of a principal to do, and
12
that it doesn’t come with accountabilities and
13
transparency.
14
culture and getting people to understand how that is
15
perceived, and what it actually means.
16
about how we have better oversight where it has to –
17
where it is a reasonable thing to occur.
18
MR HILL:
19
MS CALLISTER:
20
MR HILL:
21
It’s again seen as something that
So again, it’s partly about the integrity
And then it’s
Is that something that the integrity - - Yes.
- - - committee can achieve?
Oversight of conflict
of interest?
22
MS CALLISTER:
23
MR HILL:
I believe so, yes.
What about gifts, invitations to football games,
24
lunches, from suppliers to the schools.
25
within the same area?
26
MS CALLISTER:
27
MR HILL:
Yes.
That would fall
Yes.
And your advice, presumably, to anyone who is going
28
to accept such gifts or rewards would be that not only
29
might be seen as a conflict of interest but a secret
30
commission and to be very weary of receiving any such
3910
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.A. CALLISTER
1
2
rewards.
MS CALLISTER:
Very weary and particularly where it’s
3
suppliers of services to the school.
4
where gifts or hospitality may be accepted.
5
declared and – and explained.
6
7
8
9
MR HILL:
There are examples
It has to be
And to whom is it declared and explained to at
present?
MS CALLISTER:
At present, all executives have to complete a
declaration.
I don’t believe it extends to principals.
10
And we – that we then put that on a register in the
11
Department but where it is a relationship with a
12
supplier, you know, I’ve provided you with a whole lot of
13
photocopying services or – or IT services - - -
14
MR HILL:
15
MS CALLISTER:
16
17
Yes.
football.
MR HILL:
- - - and now I’m going take you to the
It’s a completely inappropriate relationship.
In respect to travel, which you’ve mentioned before
18
and which you say in your statement, it’s not that
19
there’s a ban on travel and I think we need to clarify
20
this because I’m not certain whether you’ve read Hansard
21
of recent times but it was mentioned in parliament, your
22
moratorium on travel apparently to principals were
23
complaining to their local member who raised it for the
24
consideration of the minister for education.
25
where students are involved is entirely appropriate,
26
isn’t it?
27
MS CALLISTER:
28
MR HILL:
Travel
Yes.
Particularly in this modern day of education,
29
students can on occasions, if they’re lucky enough,
30
travel overseas and learn from the experience or indeed
3911
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.A. CALLISTER
1
2
3
4
interstate.
MS CALLISTER:
And I would just add there, as long as we are
clear about the educational benefit but, yes.
MR HILL:
Yes.
It’s the educational benefit that’s the kicker
5
because we have heard here of business managers really
6
just being rewarded, one might think, by Mr Napoli and
7
going overseas trips that seem to bring back no learning
8
for others.
9
anything it’s orally and briefly to a school council
They don’t write reports.
If they say
10
rather than to a group of schools that could benefit if
11
there was any benefit from the trip and it’s those sorts
12
of trips that you’re concerned about, I take it?
13
MS CALLISTER:
It is those sorts of trips and it’s the volume.
14
I mean, international travel is not – is not something
15
widely approved in the public sector that I can think off
16
in almost any other area.
17
with fairly rigorous oversight and not frequently.
18
know, not every year.
19
People do get to travel but
You
I think we’ve got a number of people that have never
20
travelled and a number of people that see it as an
21
entitlement for every conference every year, interstate
22
or overseas.
23
opportunities for professional development and networking
24
so I’m – I don’t think all travel is a bad thing.
25
Conferences can be really good
What I think is we have a unclear policy about it and
26
we have noncompliance with that policy and we have a
27
culture of entitlement and, as you say, we don’t have
28
enough clarity about what people bring back and how they
29
– how they reflect that educational experience and
30
learning.
3912
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.A. CALLISTER
1
And I am well aware that the restrictions we’ve put
2
in place which is that the secretary has to approve all
3
travel currently while we’re looking at it have caused a
4
huge amount of concern out in the education sector.
5
what it has really highlighted for me and I go back to my
6
earlier comments about systemic weaknesses and culture,
7
is people not understanding that that is part of our
8
public accountability for how we spend public money.
9
It isn’t an entitlement.
And
And we have had school
10
councils complaining to us that they didn’t agree with
11
the travel that was being undertaken but they didn’t feel
12
they were able to successfully argue that with school
13
leadership.
14
significant issue for us and we need to address it quite
15
quickly.
16
17
MR HILL:
And so I think this is – this is a very
In respect to the funding of schools, generally,
schools are funded through the student resource package.
18
MS CALLISTER:
19
MR HILL:
20
MS CALLISTER:
21
MR HILL:
Yes.
And sometimes by grants.
Yes.
It is the lax – let me find the right word – it is
22
the inappropriateness of some of those grants that has
23
led to the problems uncovered here, that is, that grants
24
were made by senior executives simply to suit their own
25
purposes.
26
controlling those that administer grants within the
27
central offices?
28
MS CALLISTER:
What thought has there been given to
So this is a piece of work that we’re getting
29
some independent advice about and this goes to how we
30
manage our financial systems into the future and we have
3913
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.A. CALLISTER
1
a number of – have some advice about contemporary grants
2
models in finance that are quite different to what we –
3
what we currently have and I’m getting some advice next
4
week about how we might move to implementation and change
5
of some of those systems.
6
So there will be some, you know, need to continue to
7
provide individual grants to schools for certain
8
programs.
9
completely different way with complete – with centralised
10
11
It’s a question of how that is done in a
transparency in relation to it.
MR HILL:
And to have centralised transparency, not only do
12
you have to have the right people doing the job but you
13
have to have those who are perhaps their line manager
14
supervising.
15
MS CALLISTER:
16
MR HILL:
17
MS CALLISTER:
18
MR HILL:
Absolutely.
Would you agree?
Absolutely.
It seems to me from yesterday’s evidence that the
19
chief financial officer as she was at the time and the
20
line manager of Mr Nino Napoli had no idea what he was
21
doing.
22
MS CALLISTER:
23
MR HILL:
That would appear to be the case.
Absolutely.
And that of course can’t be desirable in a line
24
manager that manager should be able to supervise and have
25
some understanding of what those under him or her are
26
doing.
27
MS CALLISTER:
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
I mean, I – I think
28
said earlier while executives carry a great deal often of
29
authority and delegation, that doesn’t absolve more
30
senior executives for making sure that they are
3914
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.A. CALLISTER
1
discharging their responsibilities appropriately and for
2
taking action, the test for executives should be higher.
3
MR HILL:
4
MS CALLISTER:
5
6
Yes.
And they have to meet that test or not be able
to hold those roles in the Victorian Public Service.
MR HILL:
Just on another topic, Ms Callister, the computer
7
systems that the Education Department operate under,
8
software packages, the schools use CASES21.
9
10
11
MS CALLISTER:
MR HILL:
Mmm.
The accounting package generally for head offices,
we understand it, is Oracle.
12
MS CALLISTER:
13
MR HILL:
Yes.
And then there’s an additional package called Ariba
14
for purchasing.
15
one picked up the fact that there were multiple invoices
16
from the same small organisation going – and being paid
17
by different schools.
18
MS CALLISTER:
19
MR HILL:
One of the difficulties here is that no
Yes, that’s right.
Nor was it picked up that there were multiple
20
invoices, for example from one organisation going – and
21
being paid by one school.
22
computer system that the Education Department operates
23
under, that it doesn’t seem that the material can be read
24
easily?
25
MS CALLISTER:
Is that a fault within the
I think that is the case currently, Mr Hill.
26
understand that we are looking at ways of migrating data
27
from CASES21 into Oracle so that we can do that.
28
that we’ve also got some new software in audit that can
29
start to electronically – I’m just checking this.
30
Electronically, from an audit point of view, look for
3915
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
I
And
Yes.
G.A. CALLISTER
1
these sorts of transactions and patterns.
2
MR HILL:
3
MS CALLISTER:
4
Abnormal purchasing patterns and the like. But - - -
on Oracle.
5
MR HILL:
6
MS CALLISTER:
Yes, yes.
We could – we could put every school
There’s a very significant cost to that.
Yes.
And, you know, it ranges – it’s probably – it’s
7
a very significant cost.
It is – it may be possible,
8
however, to migrate some of the CASES21 into Oracle so
9
that we can see that.
So we are looking at the financial
10
systems to be able to better do that, but we also are
11
using this audit software – or we’ve just begun to use
12
that.
13
MR HILL:
From a simplistic point of view, it seems to me, at
14
any rate, that schools should not be paying invoices for
15
goods or services that they’re not involved in.
16
MS CALLISTER:
17
action.
18
MR HILL:
Yes.
That’s right.
And we are – we have ceased that
Because here the evidence has been, as you
19
would be aware, that school principals were simply paying
20
invoices without question.
21
MS CALLISTER:
22
MR HILL:
Yes.
And in some way your task will be, I think you
23
agree, to get the message over that school principals and
24
business managers, in particular, and the executives
25
within the Department have to be more questioning.
26
MS CALLISTER:
27
MR HILL:
28
Yes.
And perhaps more responsible in their dealings with
public moneys.
29
MS CALLISTER:
30
MR HILL:
Absolutely.
Yes.
3916
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.A. CALLISTER
1
MS CALLISTER:
Absolutely.
Right from the top through to the
2
business managers, as you say, in schools.
3
have ceased and – that behaviour whereby regions move
4
invoices into schools, that is what we are currently
5
winding back right now, for services that were provided
6
somewhere else but not provided by the school.
7
MR HILL:
But we – we
And can we take it, now that we’re at the very last
8
day of the financial year, that there hasn’t been a lot
9
of money moved out of the central office into the regions
10
to, in effect, hide it and – as appears to have occurred
11
in the past?
12
13
14
15
MS CALLISTER:
I would be shocked if that has happened.
And,
yes, that cannot happen.
MR HILL:
You’re aware though from what you’ve heard that that
was being done in the past - - -
16
MS CALLISTER:
17
MR HILL:
Yes, I am.
- - - to, in effect, quarantine that money somewhere
18
else so that it wouldn’t be reclaimed by the Government
19
or allocated to some other function in the new financial
20
year.
21
MS CALLISTER:
22
MR HILL:
Yes.
Yes.
I’m reminded this – when you spoke before of
23
the proposed whistleblower policies, what about – and
24
this is, with the greatest respect to you because here
25
we’ve dealt with Mr Rosewarne who was the acting
26
secretary - - -
27
MS CALLISTER:
28
MR HILL:
29
MS CALLISTER:
30
Yes, yes.
What if there’s a problem at the very top?
So if someone makes a – someone raises an issue
that they believe I don’t actually respond to?
3917
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.A. CALLISTER
1
MR HILL:
Yes.
2
MS CALLISTER:
Yes.
Well, I think our whistleblower policy
3
has to offer people a way beyond the Department if they
4
feel that is the response.
5
policy, we will look at that.
6
the Ombudsman which is – you know, I think we have an
7
obligation to make sure people know that is an option,
8
as, of course, is IBAC.
9
the Public Service Commissioner about whether this is a
And we – in developing the
There is options around
But I’m interested to talk to
10
function that they would like to take on as well as part
11
of our policy so that they could be one of the options.
12
Or there may be others that we’re exploring.
13
know, it’s a very fair point given the history in the
14
Department, a very fair point.
15
16
MR HILL:
But, you
In one way, that’s the most shocking thing about
this case.
17
MS CALLISTER:
18
MR HILL:
19
MS CALLISTER:
Yes.
The corruption was at the very top.
It is, and I would – I would hate for people to
20
identify me that way, but I accept that because of the
21
culture and history in the Department.
22
sure people know there are other avenues if they feel
23
there is a lack of response.
24
25
MR HILL:
We need to make
I wasn’t seeking to identify you in that way at all,
Ms Callister.
26
MS CALLISTER:
27
MR HILL:
Yes.
I was just using you perhaps ineloquently as an
28
example, bearing in mind that Mr Rosewarne, effectively,
29
held your position.
30
MS CALLISTER:
For quite a long time.
3918
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.A. CALLISTER
1
MR HILL:
Yes.
2
MS CALLISTER:
3
MR HILL:
Yes.
And we need to have a system whereby if people want
4
to complain, and complain legitimately – there’s a lot of
5
complaints that aren’t, but complain legitimately even
6
against the most senior people, that there is a mechanism
7
and a process for them to do so, and to do so
8
comfortably.
9
MS CALLISTER:
10
MR HILL:
11
MS CALLISTER:
Yes.
Yes.
And the RTK is a very good example where the
12
main sponsor of that work was the very person who was the
13
subject of some of the worst behaviour.
14
MR HILL:
Yes.
The interesting thing, in part, about this
15
case – or one of the interesting things is that the main
16
players all appear to be men, in their sixties, who – or
17
thereabouts, but who had worked in the Education
18
Department for a long time and had developed networks.
19
That’s really something you need to guard against, is it
20
not?
21
MS CALLISTER:
Absolutely.
So one of the actions that you
22
will see in the statement is actively moving particularly
23
the executive group around the Department, not allowing
24
practices to develop and – practices develop that are
25
inadequate or harmful, or promote networks of behaviour
26
that impervious to change.
27
department.
28
expected executives to understand the full range of the
29
department’s services, and I will be doing the very same
30
thing in this Department.
I did this in my previous
I did a lot of movement of executives.
I
And working with principals as
3919
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.A. CALLISTER
1
well around networks and clusters on their networks with
2
each other and with the Department.
3
4
MR HILL:
On another topic, the portfolio audit committee has
been renamed and I think it’s the portfolio audit - - -
5
MS CALLISTER:
6
MR HILL:
Audit and risk committee.
- - - and risk committee.
Has any thought been
7
given to giving it a direct line to the Victorian
8
Auditor-General’s office so that it can report directly?
9
MS CALLISTER:
I’m not sure of the answer to that.
Certainly
10
I have a very close relationship with the Auditor-General
11
so since I started as secretary I’ve met with the
12
Auditor-General on at least four occasions about his –
13
both his general perceptions of the Department and then,
14
more specifically, on audit issues that he has with the
15
Department.
16
obviously, of the audit and risk committee and the list
17
of audits that they - - -
18
MR HILL:
19
MS CALLISTER:
20
I’ve offered to – he receives minutes,
Yes.
- - - that they have done and some are – he
asks for some of them and we provide them.
21
MR HILL:
And occasionally attends their committee meetings?
22
MS CALLISTER:
23
MR HILL:
24
MS CALLISTER:
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
I am also meeting with the chair of the
25
Audit and Risk Committee after every meeting and so
26
that’s been twice since I started as secretary.
27
very – I – the relationship with the Auditor General’s
28
office has not been a positive one with the Department
29
and he’s been very clear with me about that and we are in
30
- - 3920
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
So I am
G.A. CALLISTER
1
MR HILL:
Do you know why not?
2
MS CALLISTER:
I think it’s quite conflictual.
I think the
3
Department – the audit – Auditor General conducts audits
4
and the Department has not had enough senior oversight of
5
how it provides the information to the Auditor General
6
and how it manages those audits.
7
The Auditor General has been frustrated with the
8
provision of information being late, sometimes inaccurate
9
and often at the point that he has been making findings
10
to the Department that is when more senior oversight
11
comes in and more accurate information is provided.
12
And so if we provided inaccurate information to the
13
Auditor General it’s clearly not going to – it’s not a,
14
you know, very good luck.
15
So one of the things is put in place a completely
16
different management structure for every audit.
17
talked that through with the Auditor General, he is happy
18
with us trialling that management structure.
19
more senior, it’s much more responsive and I would hope
20
through that structure and those processes that we are
21
timely, responsive and accurate.
22
I’ve
It’s much
And we also get an opportunity to therefore shape and
23
influence with the Auditor General the issues coming out
24
of his audits because he does a lot of audits in the
25
Department of Education.
26
27
28
MR HILL:
Just excuse me.
Yes, thank you for your time.
Thank you, Commissioner.
MR O’BRYAN:
Mr Thomas, no questions to clarify?
Mr Hill, I
29
think I will release Ms Callister from her summons as I
30
think it’s just so unlikely that anybody will apply to
3921
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
G.A. CALLISTER
1
cross-examine her let alone that that would be granted.
2
MR HILL:
We agree with that, sir.
3
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
So that, Ms Callister, thank you for
4
assistance.
5
were invited to give evidence, we have to because of our
6
Act issue a summons to have anybody give evidence, but
7
you were invited and to your credit you agreed to give
8
evidence and in a cooperative spirit and indeed agreed to
9
the short service of the summons our Act requiring
10
And I would like to note publicly that you
normally a week’s notice.
So thank you.
11
Your examination has concluded and you are now
12
formally excused and I don’t think the confidentiality
13
notice has any work to do so that I believe you’re not
14
bound by that in any way.
15
The time now is 11.14 am so please stop the recording
16
of this examination and you may step down from the
17
witness box.
18
19
MS CALLISTER:
Thank you, Ms Callister.
Thank you.
the opportunity.
20
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
21
THE WITNESS WITHDREW
22
MR O’BRYAN:
Can I thank you, Commissioner, for
I think it was important.
No, I agree it was important and thank you.
[11.14 am]
So Mr Hill, that’s the end of the public
23
examinations.
I have turned my mind this week to the
24
issue of possible final submissions and subject to what
25
you say, I consider that we have reached the point where
26
the issues have been sufficiently fleshed out in the
27
evidence and critical concessions have been made by
28
important witnesses, such that I feel that any final
29
submissions by counsel assisting are unnecessary.
30
you, however, to counsel assisting for your considerable
3922
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
Thank
G.A. CALLISTER
1
assistance.
2
It perhaps would come as no surprise that I do intend
3
to report publically to parliament in a formal report to
4
be tabled which I intend to have finished later this
5
year.
6
who is adversely affected in a draft of such report will
7
have the opportunity to be heard.
And of course legal representatives of any person
8
MR HILL:
Indeed.
9
MR O’BRYAN:
But that will take place in private as the Act
10
requires.
11
following.
12
MR HILL:
13
MR O’BRYAN:
And that’s the process that I intend
It’s one we agree with.
Yes, all right.
Well, thank you again.
And that
14
therefore concludes the public hearings in relation to
15
Operation ORD.
16
I will now retire.
ADJOURNED at 11.15 am INDEFINITELY
3923
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION