The Associate Parliamentary
Group for Animal Welfare
An all party group for members of both houses at
Westminster formed to promote and further the
cause of animal welfare by all means available to
the Parliaments at Westminster and in Europe
MINUTES OF THE 14TH DECEMBER 2010 MEETING ON
DANGEROUS DOG LEGISLATION, DOG BREEDING AND SEARCH & RESCUE DOGS
Attendees: David Bowles (RSPCA), Bill Lambert (Kennel Club), Victoria Brown (Kennel Club), Claire
Robinson (RSPCA), Harvey Locke (BVA), Carl Padget (BVA), Sally Burnell (BVA), Sheila Crispin (Dog
Advisory Council), Ian McParland (Metropolitan Police), Lady Fretwell (Passports for Pets), John Ball
(Search & Rescue Dogs), Marisa Heath (APGAW), Iris Thompson (National Dog Warden Association),
Dee McIntosh (Battersea Dogs & Cats Home),Carol Fowler (Cavalier Campaign), Jemima Harrison
(Passionate Productions), David Grant (Harmsworth Hospital), Nicki Cooper (Poole Borough Council),
Bill Lambert (Kennel Club), Simon Adams (Veterinary Surgeon), Chris Laurence (Dog’s Trust) Clarissa
Baldwin (Dog’s Trust), Dave Joyce (CWU),
Associate Members: Lord Soulsby, Neil Parish MP (chairman), Geoffrey Clifton – Brown MP, Roger
Williams MP
Chairman welcomed members to the meeting mentioning that whilst political members are thin on the
ground at the moment owing to recess approaching and parliamentary business, the APGAW minutes
would be taken forward and actioned with relevant Ministers and other interested MPs.
He then opened up the discussion on dangerous dogs with David Bowles, Director of Communications
at the RSPCA.
1) DANGEROUS DOGS
David Bowles (RSPCA)
Despite the 1991 legislation the scale of problem is still enormous. In 2009/10 over 1,000 dogs were
seized by the Metropolitan Police (in London alone) with around 80% identified as prohibited types e.g.
pit bull terriers. This has potentially significant welfare implications owing to the time taken to process
the dogs, for example delays in court proceedings, etc and also the financial implications for the police.
(The Metropolitan police alone have budgeted £10 million for kennelling of seized dogs over the next
three years).
In terms of trends with the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 (DDA) 66% of all convictions were in the first 2
years. Enforcement seemed to start off heavily and then eased off and then came back owing to child
deaths. There is a strong correlation between child death and media furore and then action being taken.
Marisa Heath, Secretariat
Tel: 07736 899 547 E-mail: admin@apgaw.org Website: www.apgaw.org
Indeed the DDA was instructed because a child (as well as a number of other people) were badly bitten
by pit bull terriers in 1990.
Getting into the minds of those who passed the law is difficult. How do we assess what they wanted to
achieve. If they wanted a reduction in the 4 prohibited types dogs we can say the Act didn’t work very
well as police are now still taking these dogs off the street. If it was to prevent dog bites then it didn’t
work as dog bites have increased by over 50% since then. Those 2 indicators show the DDA wanting to
a certain extent. Therefore, it was prudent of the previous Government to put into place a consultation
on dog control which they did before the General Election which then closed in June this year. A
couple of weeks ago the consultation results were reported revealing 78% of people want one piece of
legislation to deal with dangerous dogs and dog control and 84% want compulsory micro-chipping.
Last week was the 1 year anniversary of the last child’s death from a prohibited dog (a toddler was killed
by a dog in Crawley in April 2010). We have not had another incident (from that type of dog) yet but if
it does happen there will be another media frenzy and people will be asking for something to be done
urgently. Furthermore, whilst types of dogs like the pit bull terrier have in the past been largely an urban
issue, police forces are noting the problems associated with this are spreading further afield, for example
Warwickshire police have said they are experiencing the problems moving out of Birmingham and going
into their more rural areas.
The Association for Chief Police Officers (ACPO), the National Dog Warden Association (NDWA)
and the RSPCA have put in their own draft of what they believe future legislation should look like. The
worry is that Government has not said what they are minded to do. The RSPCA does not believe that
the government can stand back on this issue and they must show a clear direction for all concerned with
the enforcement of the law. Enforcement budgets are being cut back, police, local authorities and dog
wardens will be feeling the pinch and so they need a clear direction. We hope the Government will
come up with that clear direction very soon.
Iris Thompson (National Dog Warden Association) – The RSPCA comments are right. There are
many inconsistencies between local authorities with enforcement and many are cutting back to their
bare minimal with an officer only collecting stray dogs. At my local authority I have 2 animal welfare
officers and we do have some successes in dealing with dangerous dogs as we work with our local police
force. The reality is we need a consistent approach across all local authorities and we would welcome
dog control legislation to assist with this.
Harvey Locke (President of British Veterinary Association) – Aggression in dogs can be part of
their normal behaviour but largely the result of it stems from the rearing and training of them. The BVA
does not believe that breed specific legislation works. The DDA has been widely discredited and
according to the consultation responses 71% of people believe that breed specific legislation should be
repealed. There is no evidence that banning certain types of dog has been effective in reducing attacks,
particularly when there has been a 79% increase in London and 43% nationally. In the BVA’s view the
current situation is detrimental to those dogs that have the look of the types banned under the 1991
Act. There are now 33 times more dogs being seized from 5 years ago.
At a recent meeting with MPs we were told we needed to come up with a strong financial argument. A
cost analysis of the current situation shows things must change. The Metropolitan police alone plan to
spend £10 million over the next 3 years on kennelling seized dogs so multiply that across the country
and it is tens of millions. Each year the London ambulance service is called out over 700 times to deal
with dog attacks often resulting in hospital stays of 2 days. Figures show. 5,221 people being admitted to
hospital with injuries after being bitten or attacked by a dog. The Department of Health estimates the
average cost of each episode of admitted patient care under a consultant as £1,300 in England, so the
cost to the NHS of dog bites runs into the millions
There should be an end to breed specific legislation and the introduction of compulsory micro-chipping
at change of ownership or first vet introduction and there should be the introduction of dog control
notices. In Brussels, an EU Council working group is working towards a harmonised system of
identification of dogs across Europe. We also need to extend the law to cover dog attacks on private
property and the risk factors of dogs in different environments. Education has a key role to play and
that means Government, the veterinary profession, welfare charities and others have a part to play in
this.
Neil Parish MP – I too am of the view that singling out certain breeds of dogs is not the solution.
Occasionally you get a dangerous dog but it is very much how you handle these animals as to how they
turn out and react and this is where the legislation missed the opportunity to improve the matter.
Sergeant Ian McParland (Police Sergeant with Metropolitan Police) I am in the Met police status
dog unit and I am often the one seizing these dogs. The weapon dog of choice in London is pit bull
terriers and we have no other tools to deal with them except to seize and kennel them. We concentrate
our efforts on those who use them for anti-social behaviour. Since we started in March 2009 around
80% of the dogs seized are prohibited types, e.g. pit bulls. 350 of them came from ordinary people, and
were perfectly nice, well socialised dogs that have come to police notice and that because of the DDA
we have to act upon.
The reason why the Met are taking this issue seriously is because the Commissioner does not want to be
in the same position as Merseyside Police were. With both incidents of children being attacked and
killed by pit bull terriers there the dogs had already come to notice of the police and local authority.
The met police’s view is that we must ensure public safety at all times and act on any information that is
passed on to us.
We need something preventative, something to replace the 1871 Dogs Act. Something like the
Improvement Notices the RSPCA use under the Animal Welfare Act would work well (they achieve
98% compliance and they are non-statutory). That is the first step to saying to someone they are being
irresponsible which is being pre-emptive. Rather than waiting for something to happen before action is
taken.
Neil Parish MP – That would work with people when it is generally their dog and it is out of control
but not those who use them for criminal activity.
Sergeant Ian McParland – Those who comply great and those who don’t we go straight to dog
seizure stage. The amount of time courts are taking to deal with all of these dogs is the problem. 226
days to get through court is the average time.
Neil Parish MP- Is that because the law is too complex or the Magistrates Court too busy?
Sergeant Ian McParland (Metropolitan Police) - They are busy but there is a huge defence circus
which appears to be only interested in making money from legal aid. This causes continual
adjournments with the courts forgetting there is a live animal sitting in a kennel whilst that goes on.
Neil Parish MP -In Scotland they have changed the law so they can pursue the owners more on their
own property. Would you like that?
Sergeant Ian McParland - Yes I would. There are times when it is appropriate to deal with someone
in their home but there has to be a balance and a recognition that it is someone’s private property. The
CPS test of whether a prosecution is in the public interest is crucial in finding that balance.
Dave Joyce (CWU) -There are ten million dogs in UK and the CWU launched a campaign after 2
postal workers were nearly killed. We get 6000 workers attacked every year, many resulting in serious
disability and disfiguring injuries. The DDA is useless for us as most attacks are on private property
meaning they are immune to prosecution. We face the paradox where we are legally obliged to deliver
mail yet as soon as we step on private land we have no protection in criminal law if attacked. When
members are injured we have problems getting compensation as there is no need to have insurance. We
need compulsory third party insurance. On 26th Feb next year the Scottish Act comes into power which
will extend the law to private property and introduce preventative measures by way of Dog Control
measures. Northern Ireland are preparing their bill to go through the assembly which will see also new
laws extended to private property and imposing compulsory micro-chipping and licensing alongside
fixed penalty notices for people caught without micro-chips and licences. We need to complete the full
picture by covering England and Wales.
Neil Parish MP – Lots of Members of Parliament push leaflets through doors so they will sympathise
with postmen. In Northern Ireland and Scotland when the new Acts come into being what recompense
will postman be able to get? Will prosecution be able to take place?
Dave Joyce (CWU) – It will improve the criminal situation for us as presently we have no protection
when we step on private land.
Victoria Brown (Kennel Club) - I sit on the Dangerous Dogs Act Study Group so have good
awareness of the issue. I have been speaking to relevant individuals and groups taking forward the
notion of private property, dog control notices and repealing breed specific legislation in a draft Bill we
are working with Lord Redesdale. We do not wish to see responsible dog owners penalised and the
intention of the draft bill is to protect the public whilst dealing with those who are irresponsible.
Chris Laurence (Dog’s Trust) - I am the chairman of the Dangerous Dogs Act Study Group and I
agree about preventative action. The Government must recognise the strong element of the social issue
which surrounds this and which needs to be resolved as that leads to dogs being used as weapons.
Claire Robinson (RSPCA) – I would agree that any legislation should be genuinely preventative. We
need earlier intervention to discourage bad and potentially dangerous behaviour rather than waiting for
an incident to take place before any action can be taken by the authorities. Any legislation taken forward
must have the support of the police and local authorities who deal with the problem firsthand otherwise
it will not get anywhere.
Simon Adams (Veterinary Surgeon) – I agree with everything that has been said but another area
which is an emerging problem is horses and riders being attacked by dogs.
Neil Parish MP –I agree with that and it needs to be considered.
2) DOG BREEDING
Sheila Crispin (Chairman Advisory Council on the Welfare issues of Dog Breeding) –The new
Advisory Council came about because of the furore that followed the documentary ‘Pedigree Dogs
Exposed’ and the various inquiries which followed. The Council has now been appointed and its broad
remit includes: education and publicity; surveillance, research and development; breeding strategies;
legislation and regulation. We have nine members and established some of our short and longer terms
priorities at the first meeting on December 8th 2010.
Immediate challenges include:
 Producing a very simple document, with appropriate links, on how to buy a dog, be it puppy or
adult
 Reviewing existing legislation and enforcement and making recommendations for improving both
elements. We will also be responding to the Welsh Assembly Government’s consultation on The
Animal Welfare (Breeding of Dogs) (Wales) Regulations 2011
 Analysing what is meant by ‘good breeding’ and determining the ideal specification for breeder
assurance schemes
 Developing a clear specification of the basic prospective data that need to be collected
 Obtaining and analysing retrospective data from as many sources as possible
Longer term challenges include:
 Establishing the frequency and relevance of abnormalities in dogs, using the information to frame
advice and possible actions
 Analysing breed-related abnormalities with particular regard to those that cause welfare issues
Despite the often polarised views found in the world of dogs the Council recognises that a collaborative
approach is crucial and we achieved this when the various members of the Dog Welfare Review Board
(a loose association of those with interest and expertise in the various issues of dog breeding) worked
together to take forward the recommendations arising from the various inquiries. The Advisory Council
will concentrate on helping dogs rather than arguing with various bodies about past issues.
On a personal note I was astounded by how little thought people gave to the purchase of a dog.
Education is crucial in the face of such ignorance. If prospective owners ask the right questions and
never buy on a whim, the less savoury aspects of dog breeding will be hit hard.
As a brief insight into how difficult our task will be, I can tell you that over the summer I had over 500
emails in which almost everybody suggested different priorities for the Advisory Council to tackle. Our
aims and objectives must be realistic and we have to be clear about what the Council wishes to achieve and can achieve. I hope I will be invited back to an APGAW meeting in a year’s time to let you know
our progress.
www.dogadvisorycouncil.org,uk
Harvey Locke (British Veterinary Association) – Following ‘Pedigree Dogs Exposed’, the BVA
Animal Welfare Foundation bought together the Dog Breeding Stakeholder Group and in 2009 we
published principles and guidance for those seeking to buy or re-home a dog. For example people
should prioritise health, temperature over appearance. All those who benefit from dogs have a
collective responsibility to improve welfare. Another initiative we are pushing is the puppy contract and
puppy informative packs.
Last year Defra published welfare codes. We were extremely disappointed that the section on dog
breeding was not included. Defra told us it was not possible yet they are included in farm animal
regulations so why not companion animals?
We still feel that further revision of the Kennel Club breed standards is required to focus on improved
health and welfare. We also believe the Kennel Club should not register puppies born from a bitch that
has had to undergo a second caesarean section.
We are concerned that different legislation in the devolved countries of the UK could result in the
problem being exported across borders which allows illegal practices to take place without being
detected.
Resourcing is also a significant issue. Local authorities need the resources to ensure that regular
inspections are carried out by people with the requisite veterinary and welfare expertise. We would like
to see the Government and local authorities conduct a broad review of existing breeding licensing
legislation to ensure it is fit for purpose.
David Bowles (RSPCA) – This is about consumer behaviour and giving the consumer the right
information. How do we get them to get their dog from a reputable breeder? I like Sheila find it
amazing that people still don’t think about what they need to do to get the right dog. Consumers need
to get information about the dog – breed specificity and problems it could have and guidelines. We need
to work on a puppy guide. We support the Dog Advisory Council and I hope not only will we support it
by providing information but in other ways too. It is huge job and Sheila is not short on those giving
her advice.
Lord Soulsby – How can APGAW help?
David Bowles (RSPCA) – You produced a fine report. Don’t throw it away and see how far progress
is being made on the recommendations you made. Ask for Sheila to return in 12 months and see what
progress have been made and what more needs to be done.
Jemima Harrison (Passionate Productions) – I made the Pedigree Dogs Exposed documentary and
now I run a blog on pet owners who are experiencing problems. People don’t know how to buy a dog
and where to go. We live in age where we expect things we buy to be of merchantable quality . I have
had recent examples of poor Shar-Pei breeding where dogs with known links to hereditary disease continue to be
bred from. Not much is done if a disease or problem is identified so I want to say don’t underestimate the scale
of this problem and I think the problem is that ultimately we do not have an organisation overseeing the
whole thing which ensures dogs are of merchantable quality before being sold to the consumer.
Bill Lambert (Kennel Club) – We could speak about specific causes but I would say a lot of work is
being done by the KC and breed clubs and I am pleased to work with organisations here together. The
KC was criticised by Pedigree Dogs Exposed but we have been working to deal with this.
Nicki Cooper (Poole Borough Council) – It falls on Local Authorities to enforce legislation but
there are too many dogs on the streets. This is caused by too many back street breeders who have a
couple of litters for extra money and we have no powers to deal with them. Is that going to be tackled?
David Grant (Harmsworth Hospital, RSPCA) – I wanted to pick up on the social malaise comment
raised by Chris Laurence. We need to look at indiscriminate breeding, often in social housing, for profit
under no control. The KC is being criticised but there is no criticism of backstreet breeders who are
breeding to an inferior standard and the dogs are then falling into the wrong hands. You have to deal
with the social malaise and indiscriminate breeding as part of the resolution to these problems.
Harvey Locke (BVA) – Where there is the demand for these dogs there will be call for indiscriminate
breeding so we need to stop the demand. Education is an important part of that and we all have a
responsibility to educate people.
Sheila Crispin (Dog Advisory Council) – I would like to endorse what others have said. There is a
good code for farm animals but nothing for dogs and cats which is odd. It would not be terribly
expensive and would be very useful.
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown MP – Welcome to Professor Crispin in her new role. I think it will be
impossible to please all the people all the time. What worries me if you are getting near to the
inconvenient truth you will be thrown off course so you need to have very specific targets.
David Bowles (RSPCA) – Referring again to the APGAW report you said education was important in
one of your last recommendations and you felt that Government should do more. Countries that are
moving towards a solution have done it through education. Against a background of cuts there is not a
hunger for legislation so perhaps education is more possible.
Neil Parish MP – We are breeding animals with a tight gene pool and with pedigree dogs we need to
be careful we don’t bring that gene pool even tighter. It is important that this Group puts to the
Minister where we want to get to and to consider how the Government can improve this matter
through education and regulation.
Dee McIntosh (Battersea Dogs & Cats Home) – We are very encouraged by that and very
interested in the first issue. In the letter to the Minister will you recommend that the Dangerous Dog
legislation needs to be changed?
Neil Parish MP– Yes I think we will. We need to use the experts here to set out how and why. We
seem to be of the opinion that the legislation coming to Scotland and Northern Ireland will help to
combat the problem and we need to look at that more closely. Our job here is to put forward sensible
all party ideas to Government. If we think the Government have got it wrong we will say so and where
they get it right we will say so.
3) SEARCH & RESCUE DOGS
John Ball (Essex Fire Service) - I am the Dog Handler for the Essex fire service and I want to make
people aware of the problems we face when we go to countries in non pet passport countries. I went to
Indonesia with a dog and people may have seen the Free Darcy campaign which resulted from that dog
not being able to return to the UK. I believe that Defra need to change their law regarding quarantine
for search & rescue dogs. If a dog is in quarantine they are in a very small pen which means loss of
fitness during the 6 month period and that is a problem for our trained dogs. We want Defra to have a
commonsense approach building on the success of the pet passport scheme. Really we want to be
exempt from pet quarantine because of the nature of work we do with these dogs.
We do deploy on behalf of the UK Government and all the dogs are vaccinated, we are professional
working to strict protocol. In attending these incidents overseas which include large earthquake disasters
we get experience in how to handle situations as may arise in a terrorist incident in the UK which is very
valuable. Our dogs are all documented and we would be willing to have the rabies vaccine on an annual
basis rather than the usual 2 or 3 years.
Defra’s response to the Darcy Campaign was to state their fear of an introduction of rabies and other
exotic diseases. Quarantine at the moment is purely for rabies and we have proved the vaccine is safe
and reliable. At the most we deploy to 1 or 2 incidents a year with only around 4 dogs going overseas in
the last 5 years so the risks are low.
Neil Parish MP– I think we will write from this group to the Minister. What you say is sensible and the
fact your dogs are all chipped and have the rabies vaccine annually means we ought to be able to find
way through the bureaucracy.
Lady Fretwell (Passports for Pets) - Over 60,050 pets come through the travel scheme from places
like Russia and other countries. The percentage of these search & rescue dogs are so minor I think it is
an oversight. People just don’t realise and think they have come in on the pet travel scheme. The irony
is that in France they have just given an award to one of these dogs whereas here we slap our dogs in
the slammer. Then I asked Defra what would happen if there was a terrorist attack in the UK and the
search & rescue dogs were in quarantine and was told they would get the French dogs over here.
Neil Parish MP – We will contact Defra raising these points. We do need to get Lord Henley here to
answer these questions directly but in the meantime we will write to him. Marisa will liaise between all
speakers to get the right letters written and involve the police and CW too.
END OF MEETING