UNIVE RS IT Y O F DURB AN -WE S T VIL L E
DO CUME NT AT IO N CE NT RE
O RAL H IS T O RY PRO JE CT
“VO ICE S O F RE S IS T ANCE ”
INTER VIEW EE :
S UNNY VENKATR UTHNAM
INTER VIEW ER S : M NTS ODI & D S HONGW E
DATE :
16 J ULY 2002
P LAC E :
DOC UMENTATION C ENTR E
UDW
-------------------- ------------------------------------MN: Good m orni ng and wel com e t o W est vi l l e [ UDW ] .
Thi s i s t he anot her i nt ervi ew i n t he Oral Hi st ory
[ P roj ect ] .
And t oday we are bl essed wi t h t he
presence of P rofessor S unny Venkat rut hnam . He i s
t he head of t he Depart m ent of P ol i t i cal S ci ence at
t he
Uni vers i t y
of
Durban
W est vi l l e.
P rofessor
S unny, good m orni ng and wel com e.
S V:
Morni ng.
MN: P rofessor S unny t o st art wi t h, i f I m ay, woul d you
se m i nd t el l i ng us about yoursel f, where you were
born and when, and about your fam i l y, at l arge.
S V:
I go al ong way back.
1935.
I was born on t he 27t h J ul y
And I was born i n S ea Vi ew, whi ch was on
t he banks of t he Um bi l o R i ver. A very rural ki nd of
set t i ng and growi ng up, you know, t he worl d was,
onl y t he hori z on, was very, very s hort . S t el l awood
C em et ery was m y hori z on.
And we l i ved on t he
ri ver -bank, and no runni ng wat er, no el ect ri ci t y.
MN: W hat can you t el l us about your fam i l y, your
si bl i ngs?
S V:
Oh, m y fam i l y.
I grew up i n a huge fam i l y, you
know, unt i l very recent l y, w e had I had ni ne si st ers
and t hree brot hers. But t hen, l i fe t hen, was sort of
1
com m unal . W e had a l ot of rel at i ves l i vi ng wi t h us,
you know, because t hey were unem pl oyed or for
som e ot her reason. But I coul d rem em ber di st i nct l y,
t hat at any one t i m e, al l t he ki ds, al l t he boys sl ept
i n one room on t he fl oor, about t en or fi ft een of us.
And l i fe was hard.
W e had no beddi ng ex cept
hessi an bags, you know, ri ce bags, j ut e bags, as
beds, bui l t on t he fl oor and t o cover yoursel f. And
funni l y, you know, t hat real l y, l at er i n m y l i fe,
when I was det ai ned, i t hel ped m e, because I had t o
t el l m ysel f, “Look, you l i ved i n m ore di ffi cul t
condi t i ons, now you can survi ve t hi s. You have
survi ved al l t hese years, and j ust m ake t he best of
i t .”
S o t hat brought m e back, m ade m e t hi nk t hat
t hat t he hard l i fe t hat we went t hrough, real l y
hel ped us l at er on i n l i fe t o real i se t hat , l ook you
know,
t hi s
is
som et hi ng
t hat
you're
m aki ng a
sacri fi ce for, and i t ’s wort h doi ng i t .
MN: C an you t el l us a bri ef hi st ory of your paren t s,
where t hey com e from and how?
S V:
My parent s were fi rst generat i on Indi ans, and bot h
my
parent s
were
born
in
S out h
Afri ca.
My
grandparent s cam e from Indi a i n Baz akpat nam , and
t hey
were
i ndent ured
l abourers.
My
pat ernal
grandparent s, aft er t hei r i ndent ure, t en years or
som et hi ng, t hey went back t o Indi a and di ed t here.
But m y pat ernal grandm ot her l i ved and di ed i n
S out h Afri ca and st ayed here.
S he i s from S out h
Indi a as wel l .
MV: W hat sort of a com m uni t y di d you grow i nt o?
S V:
It was, because i t was a sem i -rural area, everybody,
m y nei ghbours, m y uncl es and m y nei ghbours and
everybody el se, I t hi nk peopl e l i ved on roughl y
2
10/ 15 -acre pl ot s of l and, where t hey di d m arket
gardeni ng, m ost l y. And bananas and frui t and al l of
t hat ki nd of st uff.
fl ower sel l ers.
My paren t s, ori gi nal l y, were
They used t o sel l fl owers at t he
Durban C ent ral C em et ery.
And t hen event ual l y m y
fat her becam e a peddl er.
You know, t hey have a
bam boo st i ck and huge basket s; wal k from S ea Vi ew
i nt o Vi ct ori a S t reet , buy t he veget abl es and frui t ,
and al l of t hat . And wal k back t owards, t hat ’s about
seven or ei ght ki l om et res or m i l es. Ya, and he di d
t hat for al l hi s l i fe unt i l 1937 or som et hi ng, when
he bought a bakki e, for t he fi rst t i m e. And t hen he
used t hat t o hawk frui t and vege t abl es am ongst t he
whi t es. S o l i fe was very di ffi cul t for m y parent s.
And I t hi nk, when I was growi ng up as a ki d, I used
t o onl y see m y fat her on a S unday. Because he used
t o get up at t wo i n t he m orni ng, t o wal k t o t he
m arket , and onl y cam e back aft er sunset .
S o we
onl y saw hi m on a S unday m orni ng, and t hat ’s i t .
S o l i fe was real l y hard. My parent s, m y m ot her al so,
I t hi nk, was carryi ng t hi s huge basket on her head,
m y si st ers di d i t , and l i fe wasn’t easy, i t was real l y
t ough.
And yet ,, I t hi nk, m y f am i l y, com pared t o
m y nei ghbours and m y uncl es l i vi ng nex t t o us, we
were
consi dered
to
be
bet t er
off
t han
t hem .
Because, I t hi nk, especi al l y m y uncl e; m y uncl e was
an al cohol i c, I rem em ber, and al ways beat i ng up m y
aunt and t he chi l dren. And m y parent s never drank
and so we were fort unat e, i n t hat sense, t hat we had
a st abl e fam i l y and we di dn’t eat cl assy food. You
know, I recal l m uch l at er i n l i fe t hat we used t o
onl y have bread on a S unday and t he rest of t he
days, especi al l y duri ng t he [ S econd] W orl d W ar,
3
t hat we coul dn’t get ri ce.
The onl y t hi ng we at e
t hen was barl ey, you know, t he boi l ed barl ey, m eal i e
ri ce, sam p and t hat ki nd of st uff. S o m y parent s
l i ved frugal l y, but we di dn’t st arve, we were wel l fed but very frugal , si m pl e rural di et . W e ha d a l ot
of frui t and l ot s of veget abl es; t he onl y t i m e you
had m eat , I t hi nk, was when you had vi si t ors com i ng
t here and we had t o ki l l a chi cken or t wo. W e used
t o l ook forward t o vi si t ors com i ng, ot herwi se m eat
was not on t he di et , as i t were.
MN: You al so m ent i oned, st i l l on your fam i l y, you
m ent i oned t hat you have about ni ne si bl i ngs, where
ex act l y woul d you be, I m ean on t he l adder, were
you t he fi rst born?
S V:
W here am I?
MN: Yes.
S V:
Let ’s j ust count from t he bot t om up.
I t hi nk I’m
num ber si x ; we num bered ni ne si st ers and t hree
brot hers, t hat ’s t wel ve pl us m y fat her adopt ed t wo
chi l dren. You know, I t hi nk, t hey were hi s si st er’s
chi l dren, and she di ed because of a snakebi t e or
som et hi ng, and t hey were brought up by m y dad.
And I di dn’t real i se u nt i l I was about 21, 22 -years
ol d t hat t hey were not m y brot her and si st er. It was
am az i ng t hat t hey were so cl ose, you know.
MN: C an you t el l us about your educat i onal background
and i f your fam i l y m em bers...?
S V:
W el l , l ook, you know, Vi no wi l l t el l you t hi s; t hat
our pol i t i cal hi st ory and our pol i t i ci ans si nce t he
1960’s onwards kept referri ng t o t he st ruggl e as t he
apart hei d st ruggl e, you know.
Onl y t he Afri kaner
was t he bad guy. But you know, I was born i n 1935
and I was not born i n a Group Area, bu t yet t here
4
were Group Areas, even t hen.
S o apart hei d st art ed
about 400 -years ago, not wi t h t he Afri kaner.
I
t hi nk, t he Afri kaner onl y redefi ned and real i gned i t
a bi t m ore st arkl y, but I l i ved i n a t ypi cal apart hei d
S out h Afri ca i n 1935.
It wasn’t i n 1 948 t hat
oppressi on st art ed - very, very m uch earl i er.
you know, we l i ved onl y am ongst Indi ans.
And
C am e
across very few Afri cans, yet t hey, i f you cam e
across t hem , t hey cam e i n as l abourers. I recal l m y
fat her used t o hi re t hem occasi onal l y, and t he wa y
he woul d go and choose a l abourer i s, onl y i f he has
got a pat ch on hi s pant s.
If he had a pat ch on hi s
but t ocks, he woul dn’t hi re hi m . I recal l once aski ng
why i s t hat ?
He says: "No, t he guy who has got a
pat ch on hi s back i s a guy who si t s down and
doesn’t work. But t he guy who’s got a pat ch on hi s
knee he’s a good worker."
But t he st range t hi ng
was t hat al t hough t hey di dn’t i l l -t reat Afri cans, t hey
t reat ed t hem as Kaffi rs, i n t he worst sense of t he
word. That t hese peopl e had no brai ns, t hey are on
a l ower l evel t han even t hei r dom est i cat ed ani m al s,
t hat ’s how t hey t reat ed t hem . And we were al ways
t ol d t hat , you know, we Indi ans are far superi or
because we have 5000 -years of ci vi l i sat i on behi nd
us. The Afri can i s ri ght at t he bot t om , t he C ol oure d
peopl e are j ust drunks, you know. And t he whi t es,
of course, were t he superi or peopl e and bl ah bl ah
bl ah, and t he onl y way t hey were abl e t o ex pl ai n t he
di fferences bet ween al l ki nds of peopl e i s t hat , you
know, i n t he Indi an rel i gi on t here i s a t hi ng c al l ed
Karm a.
It ’s l i ke fat e, and we as young chi l dren
were al ways t ol d t hat you need t o behave wel l , you
need t o be honest and t rut hful , and do your prayers
5
t wi ce a day, don’t st eal , don’t say bad t hi ngs, l i st en
t o your parent s and your t eachers and your el ders.
And i f you do al l t hat , perhaps i n your nex t l i fe you
wi l l m ove up hi gher i n t he hum an race, you see.
And I recal l , and I rem em ber t hi s very cl earl y for
m ysel f; i s t hat m y am bi t i on i n l i fe was t hat I’m
goi ng t o be such a good boy t hat event ual l y i n m y
nex t l i fe I'l l be a whi t e person. That was m y ai m i n
l i fe.
And l ook, t o be a whi t e i n S out h Afri ca, i n
t hose days, was real l y l i ke l i vi ng i n heaven because
t hese were t he onl y peopl e t hat l i ved i n bri ck and
m ort ar
hom es.
And
t here
were
si de
st reet s ,
si dewal ks, t hey had m ot or cars. Many of t hem ,
t arred roads, el ect ri ci t y, runni ng wat er. I saw t hi s
and nobody coul d t el l
m e t hat
t hey were not
superi or t o us. Because t hat , t hat ’s what I saw, and I
see Indi ans bel ow t hem , and t he Afri can ri ght on t he
bot t om t hey were t he dregs of soci et y.
S o what I saw and what m y parent s t ol d m e about
rel i gi on,
about
Karm a
and
al l
t hat ,
di dn’t
cont radi ct , i t fi t t ed i n. S o t he onl y ex pl anat i on was
t hat t he Afri can i s ri ght on t he bot t om because t hey
di d som et hi ng t err i bl y wrong i n hi s l ast l i fe.
And
t herefore he i s t here. S o si m i l arl y, t hey sai d t hat i f
I m i sbehave and do al l ki nds of t hi ngs, i n t he nex t
generat i on you wi l l probabl y becom e an Afri can,
you see. S o nobody want ed t o do t hat , so you t ri ed
t o be a good bo y. And of course, m y school i ng i n
t he earl y years was affect ed by W orl d W ar Two.
W hat our parent s di d, m y parent s had a farm i n
C l i ffdal e - about 200 acres or som et hi ng. Farm i ng
cabbages and t om at oes and al l of t hat , so t hey
col l ect ed al l t he young boys, onl y t he (m al es) boys
6
i n t he fam i l i es, i n t he ex t ended fam i l y, t here were
about si x of us.
And t hey sent us t o t he farm for
t wo years, t endi ng cat t l e and doi ng al l ki nds of
t hi ngs t here. S o when I cam e back aft er t he war, I
went t o pri m ary school agai n - i t was about seven
m i l es from hom e.
W e had t o cross Um bi l o R i ver
about t hree t i m es, t o get t o school , S t el l a Hi l l . Al l
t hat propert y i s now bought off by Nat al Uni versi t y
because of t he Group Areas [ Ac] .
And we were i n
t ot al l y Indi an school s, Indi an t e achers, everyt hi ng
Indi an.
S o t he Bant u Educat i on, wel l al t hough i t
cam e i n 1954, i n 1935 we st i l l had Bant u Educat i on,
you see.
S o we went t hrough t hat , of course, t he
sam e ol d st ory t hat not hi ng progressi ve was t aught .
The sam e ki nd of sent i m ent s and val ues t hat m y
parent s and t he com m uni t y I l i ved i n were, you
know, propagat ed i n school s as wel l , and got i t i n
pri m ary school .
wrot e
a
publ i c
Those days, i n st andard si x you
ex am
cal l ed
P ri m ary
S chool
C ert i fi cat e. If you got t hat , I m ean you know, i t wa s
l i ke havi ng your fi rst uni versi t y degree.
And I
t hi nk, I was t he onl y one i n m y fam i l y who was
al l owed t o go t o hi gh school . My parent s coul dn’t
afford t o send chi l dren t o t he hi gh school because
t hey needed t he l abour. I don’t t hi nk i t was so m uch
t hat m y parent s coul dn’t afford i t , but t hey needed
m y si st ers and m y el der brot hers t o work, not i n a
fact ory, but i n t he hawki ng busi ness, buyi ng and
sel l i ng frui t and veget abl es. S o I was t he l ucky one
who went t o hi gh school .
W ent t o S ast ri C ol l ege,
t hat one t here [ poi nt i ng t o a phot ograph] . It was t he
onl y hi gh school i n Durban, at t hat t i m e, and I was
l ucky I got i n t here and i t was qui t e a scram bl e t o
7
get i nt o hi gh school i n t hose days, because of space.
And we were l ucky, and we got i nt o S ast ri C ol l ege,
spent from st andard seven up unt i l m at ri c, got
t hrough m at ri c. S am e si t uat i on agai n - t he onl y
Indi an t eachers, onl y Indi an st udent s.
com e
across
whi t es
or
anyt hi ng
l i ke
W e di dn’t
t hat ,
no
Afri cans ei t her. And when I fi ni shed m at ri c I
deci ded t o go t o uni versi t y, Nat al Uni versi t y. But
Nat al Uni versi t y woul d not adm i t bl ack peopl e on
t hei r cam puses.
R i ght behi nd S ast ri C ol l ege, t hat
bui l di ng t here, ri ght behi nd i t , t hey had an asbest os
shed for a sm al l l i brary as bi g as t hi s. And a room
where we sat and m et and t hen i n t he eveni ng from
ei ght o’cl ock, no si x o’cl ock t i l l ei ght o’cl ock, t hey
had part t i m e l ect ures. The sam e l ect urers t hat cam e
from Nat al Uni versi t y used t o l ect ure t o us. And I
t hi nk, for m e, t hat was a t urni ng poi nt i n m y l i fe,
because up unt i l t hen we were t ol d t hat Kaffi rs were
j ust cat t l e t hi eves.
And t he sam e ol d, you know,
at t i t udes about di fferent peopl e were pum ped i nt o
us i n hi gh school , as wel l , because t he Hi st ory
books referred t o Indi ans as C ool i es, Afri cans as
Kaffi rs,
and
C ol oureds
as
som et hi ng,
som e
derogat ory...[ i nt errupt i on]
MN: Boesm ans.
S V:
Hey?
MN: Boesm ans
S V:
Boesm ans, ya, som e very derogat ory words, you see.
S o I regi st ered at Nat al Uni versi t y for a BA. And I
rem em ber t he fi rst l ect ure t hat I had t o at t end was
Hi st ory cl ass.
I wal k i n t here, and t o m y absol ut e
shock, I saw about t en Afri can st udent s i n t here. I
coul dn’t bel i eve i t . I had t o bl i nk a few t i m es,
8
because up unt i l t hen I was t ol d t hat Afri cans had
not hi ng bet ween t he ears, you know, t hat , and I
bel i e ved i t because t he Afri cans t hat I cam e across
were t he dregs of soci et y, you know. S o I was real l y
shocked, and by t he end of t he fi rst l ect ure I was
even furt her shocked because t hese were t he m ore
art i cul at e peopl e i n t he cl ass.
And I recal l goi ng
hom e l at e t hat ni ght at about ni ne o’cl ock and
t el l i ng m y fat her: "Dad, I di dn’t use t he word
Kaffi r, I’m becom i ng m ore enl i ght ened now.” I sai d,
“t here are Nat i ves i n m y cl ass room ." Al l m y fat her
coul d say was:
"S hut up and go and st udy."
coul dn’t ex pl ai n t hi s.
He
I t hi nk he was al so real l y
shocked t hat t here were Afri cans and at Uni versi t y
l evel , he di dn’t underst and t hat .
And t he peopl e
t hat cam e t o, t he Afri can st udent s t hat cam e t o
Nat al , t hey cam e t here because t hey coul dn’t go t o
Fort Hare or anyt h i ng l i ke t hat , you know, from t he
rural , m ai nl y from Adam ’s C ol l ege.
I di dn’t know
such a pl ace, as Adam ’s C ol l ege, ex i st ed. And i t
was t hen t hat i t shocked m e t hat ; l ook, by t hen I
t hi nk I was about 20/ 21 -years ol d; t hat I was angry
agai nst m y parent s, m y pri m ary school t eachers, m y
hi gh
school
m i sl eadi ng m e.
t eachers,
and
everybody,
about
And a bunch of us who al so had
si m i l ar ex peri ences got t oget her and sai d t hat we
need t o st udy hi st ory out si de of t he prescri bed
t ex t books. And sl owl y, we began get t i n g, gat heri ng
m at eri al
groups
and began st udyi ng. You know, st udy
-
we
st art ed
st udy
groups
at
Nat al
Uni versi t y, unt i l event ual l y t hat st udy group becam e
a st udent organi sat i on - The Durban S t udent s Uni on,
and whi ch was affi l i at ed t o t he Uni t y Movem ent ,
9
not t he ANC . There was t hi s huge t ussl e at Nat al
Uni versi t y bet ween t he Uni t y Movem ent P eopl e and
NIC m ai nl y, and t he ANC .
But event ual l y, t he
Durban S t udent Uni on began t o grow because we
recrui t ed st udent s m ai nl y from hi gh school s and
t hroughout Nat al , and by 1960/ 63 we were on t he
verge of form i ng a Nat i onal S t udent Organi sat i on.
Because, at t he m om ent , by 1963 t he onl y Nat i onal
S t udent Organi sat i on was t he Nat i onal Uni on of
S out h Afri can S t udent s, t hat ’s NUS AS , whi ch was
l i beral , Engl i sh -speaki ng uni versi t y st udent s. They
were so -cal l ed l i beral , and t he count erpart t o t hat
was t he AS B, The Afri kaner S t udent e Bond, whi ch
was
a
Nat i onal i st
P art y
ori ent at ed
st udent
organi sat i on, whi ch drew st udent s m ai nl y from t he
Afri kaans Uni versi t y. S o, we t hen deci ded we are
goi ng
to
form
a
progressi ve
Nat i onal
S t udent
Organi sat i on. Because, al ready you had form ed one
i n t he C ape, cal l ed t he C ape P eni nsul a S t udent s
Uni on, and here i n Durban we had t he Durban
S t udent s Uni on and we are now goi ng t o form a
Nat i onal Organi sat i on. But , on t he 1st of Apri l , oh,
I becam e a t eacher. I t aught at t he M.L. S ULTAN
TEC HNIC AL C OLLEGE. And t he 1st of Apri l 1963
was t he day on whi ch Indi an Educat i on was fi rst
i nt roduced i n S out h Afri ca. Bant u Educat i on al ready
i n 1954, Indi an Educat i on i n 1963, and C ol oured
Educat i on and what was t he W hi t e Educat i on? I
forgot what t he W hi t e Educat i on syst em was.
But
oh, C hri st i an Nat i onal Educat i on, C NO. And I was
t eachi ng t here at S ast ri , I m ean at M.L. S ul t an, at
t hat t i m e, and on t he 1st of Apri l , t h e day t hey
i nt roduced Indi an Educat i on.
And t hey i nt roduced
10
i t for t he fi rst t i m e at M.L. S ul t an, because up unt i l
t hen, M.L. S ul t an was under t he Uni on Educat i on
S yst em . But M.L. S ul t an was t he fi rst i nst i t ut i on i n
S out h Afri ca, where Indi an Educat i on was fi rst
i nt roduced.
S o we, before t he 1st of Apri l , we
began ri l i ng st udent s. I t hi nk about 4000 st udent s
j oi ned t he Durban S t udent s Uni on by t hen al ready,
and we were about t hree or four young t eachers at
M.L. S ul t an Techni con, at t hat t i m e.
Mysel f, m y
wi fe, t wo of m y col l eagues, we were t here - we were
m em bers of t he DS U and we m obi l i sed st udent s.
And, i n hi gh school s and pri m ary school s, t hose
days I t hi nk, t he fi rst fi ft een m i nut es of every day,
you had t o have an assem bl y.
W e had t o say t he
prayer and t hank t he Lord for al l t he bad t hi ngs t hey
are doi ng for you and al l of t hat st uff, and you
know.
S o we organi sed a boycot t of t he m orni ng
assem bl y, a fi ft een -m i nut e boycot t . Im m edi at el y we
di d t hat , al l of t he st udent s refused t o go i nt o t he
hal l t o at t end t hi s m orni ng assem bl y.
And t he
aut hori t i es i m m edi at el y t hrew t he st udent s out of
t he col l ege prem i ses - t hey were i n C ent enary R oad
- st andi ng out si de because t hey l ocked t he gat es.
Hal f an hour l at er, I was cal l ed downst ai rs i nt o t he
pri nci pal 's
offi ce
and
[ he]
sai d:
"You
are
i m m edi at el y suspended from t eachi ng. Go upst ai rs
col l ect your bag and chuck."
S o t he 1st of Apri l
was t he l as t day I t aught , and a si m i l ar t hi ng
happened t o Trees [ Theresa, m y wi fe] and m y ot her
t wo col l eagues. My ot her t wo col l eagues were fi red
on t he spot because t hey were not on t he perm anent
st aff. S o t hey coul d fi re t hem . Trees was fi red
because she was not on t he perm anent st aff; wi t h
11
m e, t hey had t o suspend m e.
And a m ont h or t wo
l at er t hey had a t ri al at whi ch I w as found gui l t y of
bei ng responsi bl e of bei ng an i nst i gat or of t he
boycot t and I was di sm i ssed as a t eacher.
MN: C an I have a break?
TAP E S W ITC HED OFF
ON R ES UMP TION
MN: W el com e back. P rofessor S unny, you spoke about
your pol i t i cal i nvol vem ent , but I h aven’t asked you
t hat when ex act l y can you say was your t urni ng
poi nt i n pol i t i cs, where you real i sed t hi s segregat i on
and apart hei d?
S V:
W el l you know, as I sai d, t he fi rst day of m y
l ect ures at Nat al Uni versi t y, where I saw Afri cans i n
t he cl ass room , r eal l y t raum at i sed m e. And I t hi nk,
i t changed m y out l ook i n l i fe, but t he process was
not j ust i m m edi at el y t raum at i c, but t raum at i c i n t he
sense t hat I’d, as you know, I sai d earl i er I was
angry wi t h peopl e m i sl eadi ng us and al l of t hat . But
gradual l y, at Nat al Uni versi t y I began, apart from
t he st udy groups t hat we were at t endi ng, I began
associ at i ng m ai nl y i n t he begi nni ng wi t h t he l i beral s
because I di d soci ol ogy, as wel l .
And Leo C ooper
and al l of t hese peopl e, C K Hi l l and al l of t hese
peopl e, t hey we re whi t es you see, and t hey becam e
fri endl y, very pat roni si ng, and I t hought good;
because for t he fi rst t i m e i n m y l i fe, a whi t e di dn’t
cal l m e S am m y. You know, t hose days, whi t es
i nst ead of cal l i ng you C ool i e t hey t hought i t t hey
were doi ng you a bi g fav our by cal l i ng you S am m y.
And t he wom en t hey woul d cal l Mary, you see. But
and t hese guys cal l ed m e S unny and I hung out wi t h
12
t hem a l ot .
There was a young soci ol ogy l ect urer
t hen, Margo P hi l l i ps, and we used t o go out a l ot
t oget her.
S he
had
a
scoot er
-
drove
around
som et i m es, drew a l ot of aggressi on from whi t es.
Especi al l y when you st opped at st op st reet s, what
am I si t t i ng and hol di ng a whi t e wom an, you know.
It was unt hi nkabl e.
But anyway, sl owl y I began
l earni ng m ore about l ocal and nat i onal pol i t i cs,
cam e across t he Nat al Indi an C ongress, t hat t i m e. I
was very at t ract ed t o t hem , vi rt ual l y j oi ned t hem ,
sol d a l ot of t hei r newspapers, and al l of t hat . Unt i l
one day MD Nai doo, I t hi nk, saved m e.
W e were
t al ki ng about ,you know, I was a frequent v i si t or
wi t h P hyl l i s and MD, at t hat t i m e.
And we were
t al ki ng about t hi ngs, and had t al ked about , you
know
knowl edge was com i ng i n so fast for m e
t hose days t hat I had t o check qui ckl y wi t h ot her
peopl e, and al l of t hat . And I t al ked about , you
know, i n t hat S out h Afri ca we need a revol ut i on,
nobody wi ns i f t here i s no revol ut i on, t here has t o
be a bl oody revol ut i on.
no, and I t ol d hi m
R evol ut i on?
And MD, of course, sai d,
what about t he Bol shevi k
He says, “No, t hat wasn’t bl oody.”
You know, agai n I wen t back t o m y hi gh school and
chi l dhood. Here’s a guy t hat I respect ed, and he i s
l yi ng t o m e t o say t hat t here i s, no i t wasn’t a
bl oody revol ut i on.
I l eft NIC t hen, and t hen we
form al l y form ed t he DS U, and I t hen j oi ned t he
Uni t y Movem ent . And I found t he Uni t y Movem ent
agreeabl e; I coul d underst and what t hey're doi ng and
i t was cl ear t here was no wi shy -washyness, and t hat
pol i t i cs, t he t en -poi nt program m e was cl ear. And i n
bet ween,
I
becam e
t he
secret ary
of
t he
Non 13
European sect i on of Nat al Uni versi t y. And we were
i nvi t ed by an Int ernat i onal S t udent Organi sat i on
cal l ed Int ernat i onal Uni on of S t udent s, IUS . Al ready
i n 19, t hi s was i n 1958. That t here are t wo st udent
organi sat i ons - one i s IUS , whi ch was a l eft uni on
and
t hey
had
C onference,
an
whi ch
IS C ,
was
Int ernat i onal
pro -west .
And
S t udent
so
t hat
conference was goi ng t o be hel d i n Bei j i ng. S o I was
chosen by t he Non -European st udent s t o at t end t hi s
conference.
I di dn’t get m y t i cket here, but t he
probl em was t hat t hose days you di dn’t have a
pass port .
S o t he way out - MD and al l t hese guys
hel ped m e. J .N. S i ngh and al l of t hem t oo, gave m e
a st rat egy about how t o go t here. S o t hey asked m e
t o appl y for a t ravel docum ent t o Indi a, whi ch t he
Indi an Im m i grat i on Offi ce gi ves you. S o I got t hat ;
i t ’s an ordi nary sheet of paper, bl ah bl ah bl ah, wi t h
your phot ograph on i t , st am ped t o t ravel t o Indi a,
ost ensi bl y t o st udy, you see.
S o I get t o Indi a.
Fi rst t i m e I am fl yi ng; Loui s Bot ha Ai rport t hose
days, ent rance for bl ack peopl e was on t he si de.
You had t o go t hrough a fence, you coul d never go
t hough t he m ai n ent rance.
Anyway I get t o Indi a,
anot her huge shock t o m e. You know, m y parent s
vi si t ed Indi a t wi ce before t hat , and t hey woul d t hi nk
t hat t el l i ng m e al l t he great t hi ngs about Indi a, what
a b eaut i ful pl ace and bl ah bl ah bl ah, you know.
Very nat i onal i st i c, you see.
I l and at Bom bay
Ai rport . From t he ai rport , of course, t hey put m e up
at t he Taj Mahal .
saw
t he
fi l t h
On t he way t o t he ai rport , you
and
drudgery
and
t he
hum an
degradat i on, i t j us t fri ght ened m e. Get i nt o t he Taj
Mahal Hot el , on t he si dewal ks peopl e are l i vi ng
14
t hei r
l i ves,
everyt hi ng
from
procreat i on
to
everyt hi ng. On t he pl ane fl yi ng t o Indi a, t here was
a whi t e wom an; I t hi nk her husband was doi ng som e
work for t he UN. He was at Bangal ore, so bot h of us
fl ew t oget her t o Taj Mahal . At t he ai rport , oh ya, at
t he ai rport she was m ade t o pay 2000 rupees because
she was a whi t e person, ri ght ?
Indi ans di dn’t have
t o pay t hat penal t y. Al l whi t e S out h Afri cans had t o
pay t hat . And at t he Taj Mahal , at t he ent rance,
t here's
a
si gn:
"S out h
Afri cans
and
dogs
not
al l owed." You see. Anyway we get i n aft er she pai d
her 2000 rupees, st ayed i n t he hot el and I di dn’t
know t hat al ready m y parent s had sent a t el egram or
som et hi ng t o t hei r rel at i v es i n S out h Indi a, i n
Inkapal e, i n Indi a.
S o aft er t wo days, t wo guys
com e up t o fet ch m e t o t ake m e hom e. Hom e i s
S out h Indi a, you see.
Anyway I am i n m y hot el
room , no I was i n t he di ni ng room I t hi nk, and t he
peopl e from t he desk com e t o t el l m e t hat t here are
som e peopl e t hat want t o see m e. I sai d, "W el l you
can bri ng t hem i n."
They sai d no t hey can’t bri ng
t hem i n. Thi s i s funny. Anyway t hey got t hese guys
at t he back ent rance, you know, t he ki t chens and al l
over t here. I l ooked at t hem I coul d underst and now
why t hey di dn’t want t o l et i n. They l ooked scruffy,
you know, no shi rt , t hi s l oi n cl ot h and a m at under
t he arm .
S o I i nsi st ed t hat t hey com e i n.
I t ook
t hem up t o m y room . The Taj Mahal i s, you know,
i t ’s a fancy pl ace, i t ’s m arbl e al l over, bedroom ,
bat hroom , everyt hi ng i s m arbl e.
S o I t ake t hem i n
si t and t al k. They sai d, wel l t hey t ol d m e who t hey
were, t hat t hey have com e t o t ake m e back hom e.
S o I t ri ed t el l i ng t hem , m y Tel agu t hen wasn’t t hat
15
good because t hey, t hey speak, I d on’t know. I t ri ed
t o t el l t hem t hat l ook, I’m not about goi ng hom e I’m
goi ng t o Bei j i ng, you see. They coul dn’t underst and
t hi s and t hen t hey asked - m y sui t e, i t had foyer
ki nd of t hi ng, you know, l i ke a l ounge and bedroom ,
bat hroom . S o t hey t el l m e "i s t hi s al l yours?
you st ayi ng here? "
I sai d ya. They rol l ed t he m at
out , t hey want ed t o sl eep t here. I sai d,
can’t do t hat .”
Onl y
“No, you
I m ean, you know hot el s -
coul dn’t underst and i t .
t hey
Tri ed t o go and fi nd t hem
anot her hot el and put t hem up, but t hat was bad wi t h
Indi a.
Okay, when I went t o Indi a, I got speci al
vi sas t o fl y i nt o R angoon from R angoon i nt o Hong
Kong from Hong Kong hopped i nt o C hi na, you see.
C onference was for si x weeks, and I t hi nk t hat t oo
was anot her t urni ng poi nt i n m y l i f e because up
unt i l t hen soci al i sm di dn’t qui t e appeal t o m e, you
know. It was som et hi ng t hat , cal l i t real i st i c, i t was
j ust t oo - t heoret i cal l y possi bl e, but I di dn’t real i se
t hat , because goi ng t hough Indi a, you know, when
you say t hat Indi a, at t hat t i m e I t hi nk, had about 5
t o 600 -m i l l i on peopl e. And nobody had t o t el l you
t hat , t here were so m any peopl e l i vi ng t here.
You
coul d act ual l y see t hem , you coul d feel t hem , you
know. You coul d feel t hose m i l l i ons i n t he st reet .
And Indi a was a dem ocracy, n ot hi ng has changed.
The peopl e are st i l l l i vi ng i n t he worst hum an
condi t i ons.
Fl yi ng t o C hi na, C hi na i s supposed t o have had
m ore peopl e t han Indi a, t he popul at i on i s supposed
t o be bi gger. At l east by a good 2 t o 300 -m i l l i on,
you don’t see anybody here . You don’t see t hose
m i l l i ons i n t he st reet s or anywhere i n C hi na. The
16
pl ace i s absol ut el y cl ean. W ent t ravel l i ng around,
you know, t hey gave m e a car and a secret ary and
we coul d t ravel and dri ve anywhere we want ed t o,
when we were free. And I found t he pl ace absol ut el y
cl ean, of course, I’m t al ki ng t o peopl e t hrough an
i nt erpret er.
Vi si t ed
com m unes,
peopl e
happy,
everybody's got a sm i l e on t hei r face, everybody's
cl ot hed. The onl y probl em was t hat t hey al l wore t he
Mao, sui t s so you coul dn’t m ake t he di f ference
bet ween m al e and fem al e. And because al l t he young
peopl e had t hei r bob cut , and al l of t hat .
But you
know, I see Indi a got i t s i ndependence t wo years
before C hi na, and here, t here was C hi na wi t h m ore
peopl e.
It
had
a
poorer
i nfrast ruct ure,
l ess
i ndust ri al i sed t han Indi a, and yet t hese peopl e, t here
i s no hunger, not hi ng, absol ut el y cl ean.
That ’s
when I t hi nk, I began seei ng t he m eri t s of soci al i sm ,
and as t he years went by, I becam e m ore and m ore
convi nced about soci al i sm .
t urni ng poi nt i n m y l i fe.
S o, t hat was anot her
And m y ret urn t ri p back
hom e was anot her ex peri ence because I coul dn’t
com e back on t he sam e rout e because t here were
som e probl em s i n R angoon, at t hat t i m e. S o I
coul dn’t fl y t hat rout e.
S o t hey fl ew m e back
t hrough Uz beki st an a nd Mongol i a and t hrough t he
S ovi et Uni on i nt o Moscow and from Moscow t o
New Del hi . S oci al i sm i n - I spent a coupl e of days
i n New Del hi , i t was t oo col d I coul dn’t , not Del hi ,
I m ean Moscow. It was ex t rem el y col d I coul dn’t
put up wi t h i t , and t he onl y t h i ng, fi rst t i m e t hey
convi nced m e t o dri nk al cohol t hey gave m e Vodka
t o dri nk, and st uff m y cl ot hes up wi t h newspapers.
Anyway I get out of Moscow, l and i n t hi s huge
17
aeropl ane, you know, t he Aerofl ot doubl e -deckers.
In a norm al aeropl ane you si t l i ke t h i s, and t hose
Aerofl ot ’s you had a t abl e i n t he cent re and you sat
on an opposi t e si des, you know, i t was l i ke a
l ounge. Anyway, I l and at P hal am ai rport i n Del hi ,
t hey l ook at m y t ravel docum ent , t hey want 2 000
rupees. I sai d: "W hy? " They sai d: "No, S ou t h
Afri cans got t o pay t hi s penal t y." I was t el l i ng you
t hi s, but I sai d: "I’m an Indi an." They sai d: "P rove
t hat you are an Indi an." I sai d: "You’ve got t o l ook
at m e."
You know, t hen I m i ssed m y connect i ng
fl i ght t o Del hi , P hal am i s a m i l i t ary ai rport because
t hese
Aerofl ot ’s
coul dn’t
i nt ernat i onal ai rport .
l and
at
t he
norm al
I m i ssed m y fl i ght back t o
Del hi , so t hat ’s what from here t o J ohannesburg,
sam e di st ance.
Unt i l about aft er t wo hours, I
rem em bered I had m y bi rt h cert i fi cat e i n m y bag,
and
on
t hose
bi rt h
cert i fi cat es
"P rot ect or of Indi an Im m i grant s."
guy.
Now he’s defl at ed.
m i l i t ary
pl ane
from
i t ’s
st am ped
S o I showed t he
They had t o fl y m e on a
P hal am
ai rport
to
Del hi
Int ernat i onal . But t he l ong and short of i t was t hat
t hi s guy want ed a bri be t hat i s what t hey were aft er.
And I went t o Del hi , back event ual l y t o Bom bay on
m y way back. On m y way back, GR Nai doo’s fat her
was com i ng up from S out h Afri ca t o vi si t hi s
rel at i ves i n S out h Indi a. S o t hey sent m e a t el egram
t o m eet t hi s ol d m an at Bom bay docks. To go t o t he
docks you’ve got t o get a perm i t and al l ki nds of
t hi ngs.
Event ual l y
m ysel f
and
anot her
S out h
Afri can fri end deci ded t hat we wi l l go t o t he docks
and hel p t hi s ol d m an t o com e, get hi m t hough
C ust om s and Im m i grat i on and t ake hi m t o hi s hot el
18
and al l of t hat .
S o we go t here, we m eet t he ol d
m an at t he bot t om of t he shi p and he ask m e whet her
I can t ake som e wat ches, do I have som e wat ches on
m e, t hrough cust om s.
He i sn’t goi ng t o pay dut y
you see. I t hi nk he brought fi ve wat ches for hi s
rel at i ves. I t ol d hi m no, I’ve al ready have a wat ch
on, I can’t wear t wo wat ches. W e’l l pay t he cust om s
dut y, i t doesn’t m at t er, you know, we’l l ex pl ai n t hat
t hese are gi ft s for your rel at i ves.
S o okay, he
agreed very rel uct ant l y, he di dn’t w ant t o pay any
dut y, you see.
S o you know, t hey had t hese huge
sheds and t hey have l ong t abl es wi t h al l t hese
cust om s offi ci al s. They have got t o go t hrough from
one si de. S o t he fi rst cust om s offi cer I m eet , I t el l
hi m : "Look, t hi s i s m y uncl e he’s com e t o Indi a for
t he fi rst t i m e and he want s t o m eet wi t h hi s root s i n
S out h Indi a and he has brought som e wat ches as
gi ft s." S o t he fel l ow sai d: "Okay, gi ve m e 10
rupees."
Loud!
S o I sai d, “Okay, gi ve hi m hi s 10
rupees. I sai d: "W hat about al l t he ot her g uys? " He
sai d: "Don’t worry, t hat fel l ow wi l l ask t oo." S o we
went t hrough t hat whol e chai n, 10 rupees every one
of t hem . Open graft , and pi ck -pocket i ng i n Indi a you know, we had t hi s ol d m an i n t he cent re, m y
fri end on one si de, and I was on one si d e wal ki ng
hi m now, t o t he hot el .
And every now and t hen
peopl e are sel l i ng bal l pens and penci l s so he says:
"No, I’ve got " he shows t hem .
He has got a doz en
pens i n hi s pocket . He kept showi ng peopl e, t hese
vendors.
Aft er about t he t hi rd t i m e he says I’ ve
got , he l ooked, t here i s not hi ng t here, m an.
t hat
ol d
m an
t hought
t hat
And
we had pi cked hi s
pocket s, because we were t he onl y peopl e st andi ng
19
and wal ki ng, si de by si de. S o anyway I got back t o
S out h Afri ca and fi nal l y m ade up m y m i nd i n 1958
t hat I’m goi ng t o cut al l t i es wi t h t he NIC and j oi n
t he Uni t y Movem ent .
MN: W hi l e st i l l t here, P rof can you t el l us bri efl y m ore
about t he Bei j i ng C onference?
S V:
Not hi ng m uch. The onl y probl em , I t hi nk, I st i l l
rem em ber how pol i t i cal l y i gnorant I was, and naï ve.
W hen t hey had t hi s whol e breakaway sessi on on
col oni al i sm and al l of t hat .
S out h Afri ca was st i l l
I coul dn’t bel i eve t hat
col oni al , you know.
I was
doi ng i t from an academ i c poi nt of vi ew t o say t hat
we are not a col ony, we j ust . W el l , t he l ong and
sho rt of i t was t hat I don’t t hi nk I benefi t ed
i nt el l ect ual l y from t hat C onference because I wasn’t
adequat el y prepared for i t . Ex cept on an i nt er personal l evel t o underst and t he funct i oni ng and
worki ngs
of
soci al i sm ,
t hat
was
it.
But
t he
conference i t sel f, I don’t t hi nk had any real i m pact
on m e. Apart from m eet i ng Mao Tse -t ung and C ho
En Lai , and t hese guys.
You know, t hey had a
banquet
be
and
we
had
to
i nt roduced.
rem em ber C ho En Lai feel i ng m y hai r says:
can’t be from Afri ca."
And
I
"you
You know he d i dn’t ex pect
t hat t here were Indi ans i n S out h Afri ca, at t hat t i m e.
MN: S o when t hen you cam e back t hen, you l eft t he NIC
when was t hat ?
S V:
I l eft t he NIC and j oi ned t he Uni t y Movem ent
form al l y, and I’ve been wi t h t he Uni t y Movem ent
si nce t hen, unt i l now. Okay, I t hi nk, I need t o t al k
t o you a l i t t l e bi t about t he Nat al Uni versi t y.
I
t hi nk I sai d earl i er t hat for bl ack st udent s t hey had
t hi s shed behi nd S ast ri C ol l ege. Thi s shed, and
20
t hat ’s where we had t he l i brary and i n t he eveni ngs
had l ect ures i n t he S ast ri C ol l ege i t sel f.
The sam e
l ect urers t hat t aught at Nat al Uni versi t y, t he one on
t he hi l l , cam e and t aught us aft er si x t o ei ght [ p.m .] .
W e wrot e t he sam e ex am i nat i ons, of course, t he
courses t hey offered us were l i m i t ed.
You can do
l aw; you can do a general BA; or you can do a
BC om ; no sci ence courses, not hi ng. I opt ed t o do a
BA and because I hoped t o do t eachi ng aft erwards.
We
were
not
al l owed
to
Uni versi t y, whi t e cam pus.
set
foot
on
Nat al
W e were barred from
doi ng t hat ; we were not al l owed t o wear t he col l ege
tie
or
t he
uni form ,
no
access
to
it.
C om e
graduat i on, graduat i on was segregat ed: bl acks on
one si de, whi t es were on one si de, al t hough we bot h
sat for t he sam e ex am , get t i ng t he sam e degree.
And Nat al Uni versi t y, at t hat t i m e, was cont r ol l ed
by t he Li beral s bot h i n t he bi g l et t er Li beral and t he
sm al l l et t er l i beral , because t he pri nci pal was EJ
Mal herbe. He was an arch Li beral P art y m an.
P eopl e on S enat e, chai rm an of S enat e was Al an
P at on. P eopl e on counci l were peopl e l i ke Leo
C ooper, C K Hi l l , and al l t he l eadi ng l i beral s of t he
Li beral P art y were on t he governi ng body of Nat al
Uni versi t y. And t hese were t he peopl e t hat saw i t fi t
not
to
al l ow
bl ack
peopl e
ont o
t hei r
cam pus.
Because, duri ng t hose years, t here was no l aw on
t he st at ut e whi ch prevent ed whi t e uni versi t i es from
accept i ng bl ack st udent s.
It was onl y i n 1959, t he
Ex t ensi on of t he Uni versi t y Educat i on Act whi ch
form erl y prevent ed bl ack st udent s from ent eri ng
whi t e uni versi t i es and t hen...
END TAP E 1A
21
TAP E 1B
MN: W el com e bac k. P rofessor S unny, you cam e back
from Bei j i ng a wi ser m an, a wi ser young m an.
S V:
W el l I t hi nk, I don’t whet her wi ser, but I t hi nk on
t he
[ i deol ogy]
I
di d
m ake
profound
deci si ons.
Ideol ogi cal shi ft t o m e, t hat was t he i m port ant
t hi ng.
MN: You changed your pol i t i cal hom e?
S V:
Ya. I di d t hat because of i deol ogy agai n.
MN: Yes. And you t ol d us about t he graduat i on. C an you
t el l us m ore about t he graduat i on?
S V:
W el l l ook, I t hi nk st udent s at Nat al Uni versi t y t he
Non -European sect i on, where for fi ve si x ye ars
before
t hat
were
t ryi ng
very
hard
to
boycot t
graduat i on cerem oni es. Many, m any peopl e used t o
graduat e i n absent i a. You had t o pay £3 penal t y for
t hat . But ...
R EC OR DING INTER R UP TED
ON R ES UMP TION
MN: But
I’m
back
agai n.
You
were
ex pl ai ni ng t he
graduat i on, P rofessor S unny.
S V:
Yes, as I sai d t hat t he st udent s from t he earl i er
years di d t ry t o boycot t and force t he Uni versi t y
Managem ent Adm i ni st rat i on t o change i t s - i n t hose
days t hey used t he word segregat i on, i t wasn’t
apart hei d.
But t hat but t hey di dn’t rel ent , because
t hey weren’t abl e t o organi se a hundred percent
boycot t of graduat i on.
It was onl y i n 1959/ 1960,
when t he boycot t becam e a real probl em for t he
uni versi t y.
It
was
becom i ng very em barrassi ng,
because al ready t he Nat i onal i st P art y was i n power,
t he whi t e l i beral s were a bi t uncom fort abl e because
of t he Ex t ensi on of Uni versi t y Educat i on Act , and
22
al l
of
t hese
t hi ngs.
So
t hey
were
becom i ng
sensi t i ve t o t he boycot t of t he graduat i on cerem ony.
And i n 1960 I was supposed t o be graduat i ng t ha t
year, and I di dn’t , and I recal l I cam e under
t rem endous pressure from t he uni versi t y aut hori t i es.
I was t he secret ary of t he UN and t he S R C , at t hat
t i m e, and t hey prom i sed t hat no nex t year, we get what t hey sai d t hey are goi ng t o do i s t hat t hey’l l
mix
t he
st udent s
bl ack
and
whi t e,
al phabet i cal l y, t hey’l l have t hem .
wi l l be segregat ed.
you
know
But t he parent s
You know, t hat was a bi gger
i nsul t t o us and we real l y warm ed t he heart s of
m any of t he bl ack st udent s t hose days, on t hat
ground. They t h ought t hey were rel ent i ng and doi ng
us a favour by m i x i ng t he st udent s, but not t he
parent s.
S o i n 1960, we had a hundred percent
boycot t of t he graduat i on.
The m edi cal st udent s,
and st udent s at W arwi ck Avenue. Al so, I t hi nk t hat ,
t el l you t hi s t hat whe n t hey cl osed S ast ri C ol l ege
t hei r num ber was j ust before 1959 began t o soar at
Nat al
Uni versi t y,
Non -European
sect i on.
And
I
t hi nk, when we had about 400 bl ack st udent s t hen
t hey m oved us t o Lancers R oad. They hi red pot at o
warehouses, separat ed by hessi an bags, and t hat was
t hat . S o because I t hi nk st udent s were becom i ng far
m ore m i l i t ant because of t he Uni t y Movem ent i deas
were com i ng on, t he NIC on t he ot her hand, and i t
was a few years earl i er t he P AC was form ed. S o t he
st udent body becam e a very pol i t i cal body very,
very act i ve, pol i t i cal l y. Li ke so m uch i n t erm s of
pol i t i cal act i vi sm of t he 1980’s, and t hat ki nd of
t hi ng.
i nt ense.
But i deol ogi cal debat es were very, very
And i t was a very i nvi gorat i ng ki nd of
23
si t uat i on.
And
t here
was
l ot s
of
com m on
program m es or act i vi t i es t hat st udent ’s across t he
board whi ch t he NIC , ANC or P AC , or Uni t y
Movem ent ,
col l aborat ed
and
j oi ned.
Now
t he
cl assi c one, of t he C ent enary cel ebrat i ons of Nat al
Uni versi t y, t hey had t hi s huge, I t hi nk i t was a
bal l et or som et hi ng at t he Al ham bra Theat re, t here
i n t he corner of W arwi ck Avenue and Berea R oad.
Those days bl ack peopl e cannot ent er Al ham bra
Theat re. S o t hey woul dn’t al l ow us t o at t end t hat so
we pi cket ed t hat occasi on and i t was spl ashed i n t he
papers and al l of t hat , you see.
occasi ons
where
we
woul d
S o t here were
col l aborat e
across
pol i t i cal m ovem ent s. Graduat i on we boycot t ed, you
know, we col l aborat ed, and i n al l of t he i nst ances
we found were t here was a subst ant i al col l aborat i ve
effort .
The
event s
t hat
we
were
i nvol ved
in
succeeded. Li ke t he graduat i on we won, event ual l y
i n 1961, open graduat i on. W e refused t o st and when
t he pri nci pal addressed you on t he fi rst day of t he
t erm , you know, you com e, but onl y bl ack st udent s
you see, we refused t o st and. Unt i l even t ual l y, t hey
di dn’t com e t o address us. S o st udent m i l i t ancy and
act i vi sm , i n t hat sense, began t o devel op, began t o
grow. But at t he sam e t i m e, I t hi nk at t hat m om ent ,
especi al l y am ongst t he Afri can st udent s, was t hi s
huge t ensi on bet ween t he newl y -form e d P AC and
t he ANC peopl e.
It becam e, som et i m es, becam e
very nast y, you know, not physi cal but al m ost
physi cal , you know, i n t erm s of debat es and al l of
t hat , so t hat t he i deol ogi cal debat e began t o shi ft . It
becam e m ore a part y agai nst part y ki nd of t hi ng .
P AC versus ANC al l of t he t i m e, even t he act i vi t i es
24
and al l of t hat . It becam e, for t he fi rst t i m e, I t hi nk,
i n S out h Afri can pol i t i cs at l east t he em ergence of
raci sm because t he P AC at t hat t i m e sai d P AC was
for Afri cans, not for anybody el se. Nobody el se
coul d j oi n t he P AC at t hat m om ent . S o we fought
t hem , we at t acked t hem , but t hen al so t hat was a
refl ect i on of what was goi ng on wi t hi n t he ANC
i t sel f. You know t he S obukwes and al l of t hose
peopl e who began t o em erge; t he Young Turks
began t o chal l en ge t he sort of com prom i si ng st ance
t hat t he ANC was t aki ng at t hat t i m e.
And t hey
began t o quest i on l i ke t he P ot at o Boycot t , for
i nst ance
you
know,
where
t hey dem anded
t hat
peopl e don’t eat pot at oes because farm l abourers
were bei ng pai d a pi t t ance per da y.
They were
dem andi ng R 2 a day as a wage. Thi s was i n 1960’s,
R 2 a day t hat ’s al l t hey were dem andi ng.
And
whi l st t he Uni t y Movem ent , on t he ot her hand, sai d
"W el l t here has t o be redi st ri but i on of l and, we are
not m aki ng pi ecem eal dem ands, because i t ’s not
goi ng t o work t hat way." But t hese were t he debat es
t hat were goi ng on, and of course, t he P AC were
becom i ng m ore m i l i t ant at t hat t i m e.
They were
real l y get t i ng a l ot of support i n t he rural areas.
Deep rural areas, not i n t he ci t i es and t he Transk ei
and pl aces l i ke t hat , but i n t he deep rural areas and
i n t he m i ne com pounds, i n t he Transvaal and i n t he
Free S t at e. The P AC was begi nni ng t o m ake i nroads
because i t was panderi ng t o t he base i nst i nct s of i t s
m em bershi p, you know, on t he quest i on of ra ce, and
on t he quest i on of l and, and t hey want ed l and. S o i t
appeal ed t o t he l ess i nform ed peopl e and t he baser
i nst i nct of hum an bei ngs. S o t hat was begi nni ng t o
25
devel op. Unt i l 1962, t he Uni t y Movem ent form ed
what was known as The Afri can P eopl e's Dem oc rat i c
Uni on of S out hern Afri ca.
And we becam e very
act i ve
peopl e,
t ryi ng
to
m obi l i se
not
on
any
part i cul ar i ssue apart from say t he i n t he 1960’s, ya
earl y 1960’s, t hey had t hi s vi gi l ant e ki nd of a t hi ng.
I don’t know i f you rem em ber I don’t what t hey
cal l ed i t but t hey, for t he fi rst t i m e, t hey i nvi t ed
bl ack peopl e t o form
vi gi l ant e groups, l argel y by
t he st at e, hopi ng t hat t hey woul d get i nform at i on
about underground m ovem ent . Because by t hen, t he
ANC
and
t he
P AC
were
banned
and
went
underground, al re ady. And we were t he onl y peopl e
- AP DUS A was t he onl y l egal organi sat i on, at t hat
t i m e, t hat was abl e t o operat e openl y, and we fought
agai nst t he vi gi l ant e t hi ng, we won and t hat was
good.
In t he l at e - oh, duri ng t hat peri od, I was
banned and house a rrest ed.
S o l i fe becam e fai rl y
i nt ol erabl e for m e; coul dn’t get a j ob; t ri ed a coupl e
of t i m es I was hi red as a cl erk, S unl i fe Insurance; I
don’t know t hose guys.
m ul t i -nat i onal
And i t was a C anadi an
corporat i on.
Im m edi at el y
I
was
t hrown out of t eachi ng i n 1963, ya, about t hen I
t hi nk I was t hrown out i n Apri l , som ewhere around
August / S ept em ber t here was t hi s j ob advert i sed and
I appl i ed for i t , as an i nsurance cl ai m s consul t ant
for S unl i fe Insurance. Now I need t o say a l i t t l e bi t
about why S unl i fe was prepared t o em pl oy a bl ack
person, a person of col our.
MN: Before you do can I ask you t hi s one?
W hat event
real l y l ed you t o bei ng banned i s t here any speci fi c
event or t here…?
26
S V:
W el l m y general act i vi sm , because I was addressi ng
peopl e i n t he suburb s, t hat was i n al l ki nds of t hi ngs
t hat I was doi ng at t hat t i m e. P am phl et eeri ng; not
m ass m eet i ngs but house m eet i ngs m ai nl y, t hat i s
what we were doi ng, especi al l y i n Indi an t ownshi ps
and t hi ngs l i ke t hat .
MN: S o i t was a seri es of..?
S V:
S orry?
MN: It w as a seri es of event s t hat ...?
S V:
A whol e seri es of t hi ngs. I di dn’t real i se t hat I was
bei ng m oni t ored as m uch as I event ual l y found out ,
and was sl apped wi t h a banni ng order.
I know i t
was si gned by BJ Vorst er. Ya, I st i l l have copi es of
i t at hom e. And, oh ya, duri ng t hat t i m e t here was a
Bri t i sh P ri m e Mi ni st er cal l ed Harol d Macm i l l an,
and
it
was
decol oni sed.
a
peri od
when
Afri ca
was
bei ng
You had Ghana, Ni geri a, Kenya, and
al l of t hese count ri es were decol oni sed. S o Harol d
Macm i l l an cam e down t o S out h Afri ca t o t el l t he
Afri kaner: "Look, you’ve got t o change your ways.
The wi nds of change are bl owi ng from t he Nort h."
That ’s hi s fam ous speech. And "You’ve got t o
change, ot herwi se you are goi ng t o be swept i nt o t he
sea."
You know t he Engl i sh are v ery good at t hei r
use of t he l anguage.
It ’s a way of t el l i ng t hem ,
scrap your apart hei d pol i cy before a revol ut i on
t akes pl ace here. They woul dn’t l i st en. But t he
corporat e worl d began t o t ake not e of what he was
sayi ng and t hey were begi nni ng t o, very t e nt at i vel y,
so S unl i fe Mul t i nat i onal t ook heed of Macm i l l an’s
m essage and agreed t o hi re m e.
Onl y bl ack person
on t hat fl oor and I t hi nk on t he 13t h or 14t h fl oor of
t hat bui l di ng, corner of Espl anade and Broad S t reet .
27
I don’t know som ewhere around t here. And t he
m anagi ng di rect or was an obvi ousl y a forei gner,
C anadi an or Engl i sh, he wasn’t S out h Afri can.
So
he m eet s m e, offers m e t he j ob fi ve t i m es t he sal ary
t hat I was get t i ng at t he M.L. S ul t an Techni cal
C ol l ege.
And I was ex ci t ed and I fel t gl ad t hat I
was ki cked out of t eachi ng for t he fi rst t i m e.
So
t hen he t el l s m e okay, t hey'l l t el l m e when I can
st art work.
S i x weeks go I don’t hear from t hese
guys. S o I cal l hi m and m ake an appoi nt m ent t o
m eet wi t h hi m . S o I go up and t el l hi m , “C om e on,
you k now i t 's si x weeks now, what ’s t he probl em ? ”
And t hen he t el l s m e, l ook he says ,he's got fi ve
probl em s. I ask for what . One m aj or probl em was
t he el evat ors, t he l i ft s i n t hat bui l di ng. There were
onl y t wo l i ft s, one goods l i ft and t he ot her for
Europea ns onl y.
S o he di dn’t know how t o sol ve
t hat probl em . Then, on t hat fl oor t here were t oi l et s
onl y for whi t es.
Then he needed t o get m e a
secret ary who i s goi ng t o i nt erface bet ween m e and
t he whi t e cl i ent s.
I’m not al l owed t o t al k t o whi t e
cl i ent s. S o I’l l have t o get a whi t e secret ary t o t al k
t o cl i ent s.
And t hen t he fourt h one was:
t hi s was
an open pl an offi ce, so t hen t hey had t o bui l d a
part i t i on, a corner for m e, away from t he rest of t he
whi t e st aff.
S o he says okay, he’s i s deal i ng wi t h
t hese t hi ngs. I m ust j ust gi ve hi m t i m e, but i n t he
m eant i m e he says, "don’t worry si x weeks you're
goi ng t o get pai d, you wi l l be pai d." That m ade m e
very happy. I sai d okay t hi s guy i s deal i ng wi t h i t ,
and i n t he m eant i m e I’m get t i ng pai d, get t i ng a
hol i day before I st art work. That ’s how I l ooked at
i t . Anyway anot her m ont h goes by and he cal l s m e
28
i n and he says l ook he says he’s sol ved t he t oi l et
probl em ; he’s sol ved t he offi ce part i t i oni ng; he’s
sol ved t he secret ary; he got som ebody who agreed t o
work w i t h m e, a young whi t e wom an. But he
coul dn’t sol ve t he l i ft probl em . S o he gave m e a
t hree m ont hs cheque and sai d "he can’t have m e."
S o t hat was t he ki nd of S out h Afri ca t hat you had.
S oon t hereaft er I, you know ,I get banned and I get
house arrest ed i n 1964. And I wasn’t em pl oyed now,
Trees i s not em pl oyed, we have our fi rst baby,
t hi ngs
are
becom i ng
a
bi t
bl eak
for
us,
and
becom i ng, bot h of us were becom i ng very anx i ous.
S i m i l arl y ot her pi eces of work t hat I got wi t h ot her
i nsurance com pani es, t em pora ry, get ki cked out
because
t he
S ecuri t y
P ol i ce
woul d
harass
t he
em pl oyers, you see. S o we di dn’t work and I t hough
t he onl y way t o do t hi s i s t o be sel f -em pl oyed. And
I had no ot her t rade apart from peddl i ng frui t and
veget abl es and I di dn’t want t o go ba ck t o do t hat ,
al t hough m y parent s were st i l l i n t hat ki nd of
busi ness.
They offered m e a bakki e and t o set m e
up and I sai d:
"No I’ve been t hrough t hat for
t went y-fi ve years of m y l i fe and I don’t want t o
knock at t he back door of a whi t e m an anym ore." It
was very hum i l i at i ng, you know. Even when t hey
bought t he veget abl e, you had t o t ake t he basket go
t o t he back door and del i ver i t , not at t he front door,
and I don’t want t o be cal l ed S am m y.
S o I di dn’t
t ake t hat opt i on. Then t here was a but cher sho p t hat
was bei ng or run, down i n C hat swort h, so I hi red
t hat at R 80 or £80. I don’t know what i t was. R 80, I
t hi nk a m ont h, rent al .
29
MN: Thi s was aft er your det ent i on, how l ong was your
det ent i on by t he way?
S V:
No I wasn’t i n det ent i on yet .
MN: House arre st ?
S V:
House arrest , fi ve years
MN: Fi ve years.
S V:
It had t o go up unt i l 1969.
MN: S o t hi s vent ure, t hi s busi ness you are about t o ent er,
was i t aft er t he peri od?
S V:
No, i n 1964, I was banned and house arrest ed. And
i n 1964, I hi red t hi s but cher shop and becam e a
but cher for t he nex t fi ve years of m y l i fe. C hoppi ng
m eat and sel l i ng m eat . It was a horri bl e ex peri ence
but nevert hel ess, I went t hrough t hat and i n 1969
my
banni ng
and
house
arrest
ex pi red
and
I
i m m edi at el y becam e act i ve, vi si bl y act i ve, wri t i ng,
addressi ng sm al l m eet i ngs.
1969/ 1970,
I
drove
est abl i shi ng physi cal
over.
And about , i n 1970
around
t he
count ry
re -
cont act wi t h com rades al l
C om e back, t he Uni t y Movem ent deci ded t o
open t he - ent er i nt o arm ed st ruggl e. They began
recrui t i ng gue ri l l a freedom fi ght ers i n S out h Afri ca.
W e got i nvol ved i n t hat unt i l i n 1970, we al l got
arrest ed, m ore t han 200 of us.
R EC OR DING INTER R UP TED
ON R ES UMP TION
MN: W el com e back agai n. P rofessor S unny, st i l l t al ki ng
of pol i t i cs, can you t el l us m ore about t he st udent
pol i t i cs duri ng t hat t i m e?
S V:
W el l I t hi nk earl i er on I di d say t hat t he DS U had a
very,
very st rong
fol l owi ng i n
Nat al .
We
had
branches i n Tongaat , S t anger, Dundee, Newcast l e
and Durban. And we were on t he verge of form i ng
30
t hi s Nat i onal S t ud ent Organi sat i on, but 1st Apri l
1963, when we were ex pel l ed from t he M.L. S ul t an
C ol l ege and m ost of t he l ocal l eadershi p of DS U
were ei t her banned, house arrest ed and al l of t hat .
That
st udent
organi sat i on
col l apsed.
But
t he
i nt erest i ng t hi ng i s t hat dur i ng t hat peri od I’m
t al ki ng about 1963 onwards, for t he nex t fi ve years,
a new st udent organi sat i on began t o em erge. It was
cal l ed S out h Afri can S t udent Organi sat i on [ S AS O] .
It was a bl ack st udent organi sat i on. Out si de of t he
Uni t y Movem ent , out si de of t he C ongresses. And I
recal l very cl earl y because i t was at t he hei ght of,
soon aft er t he S chl ebusch C om m i ssi on, where t he
st at e was goi ng aft er NUS AS as a - t hey l abel l ed
NUS AS as a - I can’t rem em ber t he ex act word - but
as a radi cal st udent organi sat i on .
They forced t he
uni versi t y t o change t hei r own const i t ut i on, where
previ ousl y, i f NUS AS had a presence at Nat al
Uni versi t y
operat e
anot her
t here.
It
st udent
woul d,
organi sat i on
ki nd
of
cannot
cl osed
shop
operat i on, so t he st at e forced al l t he l i beral wh i t e
uni versi t i es t o change t hose pol i ci es, where you
now began t o have Afri kaans AS B branches bei ng
set up at t he l i beral whi t e uni versi t i es. It was i n t hat
m i l i eu,
NUS AS
progressi ve.
was
bei ng
seen
as
bei ng
S om e of i t s ol der l eadershi p j oi ned a
m ore radi cal Li beral P art y ki nd of t hi ng.
t he AR M com i ng i nt o ex i st ence.
Left wi chs’ and al l of t hose peopl e.
You had
Your Adri an
And i t was
duri ng t hat t i m e t hat S AS O began t o com e up. And I
rem em ber R adi o Bant u I t hi nk t hey used t o cal l i t ,
t hose days prom ot i ng S AS O.
And when S AS O was
bei ng form ed NUS AS was t ryi ng t o t ake over.
We
31
were i nvi t ed t o t he fi rst foundi ng conference at
Al an Tayl or resi dence here i n W ent wort h. W e went
t here and i n t he back room we see t he NUS AS guys
t urni ng out . In t hose days t hey wo ul dn’t have
phot ocopi ers , t hey had dupl i cat i ng m achi nes.
They
woul d be doi ng al l of t he st uff, and we had a row
and I coul dn’t go t here because I was banned but
peopl e l i ke Gaby [ P i l l ay] and Morgam [ Moodl i ar]
and al l of t hem , went t here. They had a fi ght wi t h
t hem and we wal ked out of i t .
But I t hi nk S AS O
event ual l y changed, i t s charact er changed.
NUS AS
wasn’t abl e t o break t hrough, cl earl y, wi t h S AS O.
But event ual l y I t hi nk, i n t he earl y sevent i es t he
whol e charact er of S AS O changed and wi t h t he
form at i on of t he BC [ Bl ack C onsci ousness] and t he
S at hs C oopers, your S t ri ni s, and Ashwi n Trkam j ees,
al l of t he l eft -wi ng NIC youngst ers t ook over t hi s;
t hat st udent organi sat i on, and event ual l y becam e t he
BC M [ Bl ack C onsci ousness Movem ent ] , you see.
MN: C an yo u t el l us about your - have you ever been
det ai ned, I m ean duri ng your st ruggl e years, when
was i t ?
S V:
Yes, m uch l at er, aft er I sai d you know when t he
Uni t y Movem ent deci ded t o form al l y ent er t o t he
arm ed st ruggl e.
W e began recrui t i ng i n Durban, i n
t he T ranskei , and al l over. And i n 1970 we got
caught . W e were det ai ned. And by t hen al ready t he
Terrori sm Act cam e i nt o bei ng. Under, i n t erm s of
S ect i on 6 of t he Terrori sm Act , t hey coul d det ai n
you for an i ndefi ni t e peri od. Indefi ni t e. I m ean, and
i t happe ned; I t hi nk m ost of t he deat hs i n det ent i on
and al l of t hat t ook pl ace under t he Terrori sm Act
32
because i t gave t he S ecuri t y P ol i ce such i m m ense
powers, powers of l i fe and deat h over det ai nees.
S o I was arrest ed i n, I t hi nk, on t he 17t h of
February 197 0, and I was a but cher t hen.
Oh, by
t hen I t hi nk because m y banni ng order was ex pi red I
regi st ered at Nat al Uni versi t y t o com pl et e m y LLB.
I had one year t o fi ni sh. And I al so regi st ered as an
Art i cl e C l erk wi t h Navi P i l l ay’s offi ce. And I recal l
t hat m orni ng t hat - oh, we got wi nd, I t hi nk, t hat
peopl e were get t i ng arrest ed i n C ape Town. And we
sent Gaby and Morgam down t o C ape Town t o fi nd
out what ’s goi ng on, and anot her t wo col l eagues
from t he Transkei . And I rem em ber t hat m orni ng
t hat I went t o t he but cher shop, drove down i nt o
t own.
Now we had our offi ces i n, I don’t know,
som ewhere i n Grey S t reet , no i t was Queen, no i t
was
Grey
S t reet ,
our
offi ce
t here
and
Enen’s
bui l di ngs, i s i t ? Ya, som ewhere t here, so I wal k i n
t here. As I wal k i nt o, t owards t he l i ft , I was grabbed
by t wo S ecuri t y P ol i ce. C arri ed, vi rt ual l y, i nt o t he
el evat or, i nt o t he offi ces. They ri fl ed t hrough m y
offi ces, m y desk, m y drawers, I don’t know what
t hey were l ooki ng for. Di dn’t say a word, no
quest i ons as ked, j ust searchi ng, searchi ng wi l dl y.
They want ed t he key t o t he safe. Navi ’s, t he safe
key wasn’t t here. I sai d I don’t have t he key, onl y
t he l awyer has t he key t o our safe. Anyway t hey
bundl ed m e back and t ook m e hom e. They di d t he
sam e t hi ng t here at hom e, ri fl ed t hroug h m y, I t hi nk,
we had a cabi net , every drawer. They coul dn’t pi ck
up anyt hi ng. Took m e t o t he but cher shop, searched
i t agai n, up unt i l t hen t hey woul dn’t t el l m e what
t hey're l ooki ng for. You know I had l i t erat ure,
33
banned st uff, I rem em ber, at hom e. I h ad t he di ary
of C he Guevara, t hey t ook t hat away. And t here was
l ot s of ot her banned st uff. They di dn’t bot her about
i t , real l y. And t hey t ook m e back hom e and t ol d m e
"R i ght , t ake your t oi l et ri es, we're det ai ni ng you."
And t hat was i t . You know, I st i l l recal l m y l i t t l e
son. I t hi nk he was a year or a year and a hal f,
R avel , t ryi ng t o cry and he want ed m e t o carry hi m
and I coul dn’t do t hat , t hey woul dn’t al l ow m e.
And here I am , t aken t o t hi s pl ace i n Fi sher S t reet .
And i nt errogat ed, I t hi nk, for t went y -four hours
non -st op.
And event ual l y, t aken, and bundl ed, and
hel d i n Durban Nort h P ol i ce S t at i on.
C an I have a
break?
R EC OR DING INTER R UP TED
ON R ES UMP TION
DS :
W e are back, we were aski ng you about your
ex peri ence when you were det ai ned.
S V:
Ya. I t hi nk I need t o say som et hi ng. J ust before I
was act ual l y t hrown i nt o det ent i on, I rem em ber I
was wal ki ng t o m y offi ce; I was Art i cl ed - as i n I
don’t know what you cal l t hem Art i cl ed C l erk, i n an
at t orney’s offi ce.
And as I was wal ki ng i n t hey
grabbed m e i n Gre y S t reet , and t ook m e i nt o t he l i ft ,
t ook m e t o t he offi ce, ransacked t he offi ce, found
not hi ng.
DS :
S orry can we pause?
R EC OR DING INTER R UP TED
ON R ES UMP TION
DS :
W e are back okay. Okay can we cont i nue?
S V:
Yes, and t hey searched t he offi ces and t hen t ook m e
t o m y hom e. S earched m y hom e t ook m e t o t he
but cher shop searched t he but cher shop and j ust
34
t ook m e t o Fi sher S t reet . Not a word sayi ng not hi ng.
You know, t hey di dn’t even t el l m e what t hey were
l ooki ng for. But t hey st art ed t hen, i nt errogat i ng m e
i n Fi sher S t reet .
S t art ed off by si t t i ng, you know,
m ade m e si t , and fai rl y ci vi l , i n t he begi nni ng. And
sl owl y t hey began pul l i ng i n t he race card, you
know, why you, as an Indi an, are get t i ng i nvol ved
wi t h t hese Kaffi rs and t hen t hey went furt her t o say
t hat why am I i nvol ved wi t h Kader Hassi m ?
Thi s
guy i s a Mosl em and you are a Hi ndu, and t hi s was
Nayager, i n t he begi nni ng.
S o t hey were t ryi ng t o
use race and rel i gi on and al l ki nds of t hi ngs, t o
dri ve a wedge bet ween m ysel f and m y com rades
because
by
t h en
t hey
had
al ready
pi cked
up
Arm st rong Madoda, Gaby P i l l ay, Morgam Moodl i ar
and Nkosi .
S o t here were fi ve peopl e t hey pi cked
up, oh and N ina Hassi m, Kader’s wif e.
DS :
Oh okay.
S V:
Ya and I sai d I know not hi ng about t hese t hi ngs,
you know, and t hat I wa s banned and I’m busy i n t he
but cher shop. I am Art i cl ed now, and I’m not
i nvol ved i n any of t hi s st uff. The day progressed. I
t hi nk by m i dday, t hey m ade m e st and on t wo bri cks,
and kept assaul t i ng m e, you know. P ut up m y arm s,
hi t t i ng m e underneat h. And t hen l at er i n t he day, I
t hi nk t hey gave m e t wo bri cks t o hol d.
I di dn’t
m i nd t hat , i n t he fi rst fi ve m i nut es t hey were - i t
was not hi ng. I was a but cher, you see. I t hought m y
arm s were st rong, and I fel t okay, I’l l pul l t hrough
t hi s. But I can t el l yo u, aft er fi ft een m i nut es, t hose
bri cks wei ghed l i ke a t on, and t hey kept col l apsi ng,
and t hey kept hi t t i ng m e underneat h, t he m uscl es
t here [ poi nt i ng t o hi s arm s] . Then, I t hi nk, t hey
35
confront ed m e openl y, t o say t hat I fi nanced t he
whol e operat i on t o recr ui t peopl e i n S out h Afri ca
for t he arm ed st ruggl e. S o I t ri ed t o argue back t hat
t he Uni t y Movem ent and AP DUS A, at t hat st age,
were agai nst t he arm ed st ruggl e not i n pri nci pl e, but
i n t erm s of t he pract i cal i t i es of i t . Because al ready,
by t hat t i m e, t he ANC , AP LA and al l of t hese
peopl e were real l y st ruggl i ng i n t erm s of t he arm ed
st ruggl e.
You know, t hey coul dn’t com e t hrough
because Zi m babwe, R hodesi a at t hat st age, wasn’t
freed. There was no way for t hem t o com e t hrough,
ex cept perhaps t hrough Maput o , but t hen you had
But hel ez i i n Zul ul and, and al l of t hose probl em s.
Logi st i cal l y, i t was not possi bl e t o wage an arm ed
st ruggl e wi t hout havi ng a backup count ry or pl ace
where peopl e can run back i nt o.
S o t hat was our
argum ent agai nst t he arm ed st ruggl e. W e di dn’t
bel i eve t hat bl owi ng up pyl ons and rai l way bri dges
are goi ng t o real l y bri ng about a revol ut i on i n S out h
Afri ca.
That t he posi t i on t hat we adopt ed, at t hat
st age, was t hat we need t o bri ng i n pol i t i cal cadres
i nt o S out h Afri ca have t hem go out s i de t he count ry.
Trai ni ng t hem and bri ng t hem back i nt o t he count ry
and send t hem i nt o t he rural areas, because we
coul dn’t do i t . You know t hese peopl e com i ng from
out si de and do t he t rai ni ng of peopl e i n t he count ry,
and t i m e wi l l arri ve when you have t he count rysi de
ready for an upri si ng.
And t hen we woul d t al k
about t he arm ed st ruggl e i n earnest ; so t hat was t he
posi t i on I t ri ed t o l ay out .
And t hat was a fact , i t
wasn’t m i sl eadi ng or anyt hi ng l i ke t hat and we fel t
pret t y com fort abl e t o t al k about t h at .
And anyway
t hey woul dn’t accept t hat and t he beat i ngs becam e
36
m ore severe, ki cki ng and punchi ng and al l of t hat
st uff went on unt i l l at e at ni ght I t hi nk very l at e. I
don’t know what t i m e t hey dum ped m e i nt o t he car
and put m e i nt o a pol i ce st at i on cel l , Durban Nort h
P ol i ce S t at i on, I onl y real i sed t hat t he nex t day.
And you know, i t 's very di ffi cul t t o ex pl ai n your
feel i ngs t hen; because I’ve never been i n j ai l before
t hat and j ust t o have t he t o hear t he cel l door cl ang
and shut and t hree or four t ur ns on t hat l ock was,
you know, i t was absol ut e severance from l i fe.
I
was i n m y t hi rt i es t hen and i t was a very fi l t hy cel l .
It had a bench, di rt y t oi l et , t wo fi l t hy bl anket s,
t hey were so fi l t hy you can st and t hem up on t hei r
si des you know.
bench and I cri ed.
I di dn’t s l eep I j ust sat on t he
I real l y cri ed for m y fat her m y
m ot her t o com e and save m e from t hi s t hi ng, and I
carri ed on and on, I t hi nk, unt i l t he earl y hours of
t he m orni ng. And t hen t ri ed t o pul l m ysel f t oget her,
t o say t hat l ook you j ust have t o go t hrough t hi s and
get st rong. Okay t hen t hey bri ng you breakfast i n
t he m orni ng; porri dge i n a al um i ni um pl at e, you
know. It was a pl at e t hat you coul d t urn, use i t
ei t her si de i t was sm ashed.
You know, l i ke t hose
wheel caps t hat are run over - fi l t hy. They gi ve you
coffee or t ea i n a m ug, enam el m ug, whi ch had no
enam el on i t .
S o I coul dn’t dri nk i t you know, i t
was j ust t oo bad. Anyway, t hey cam e and pi cked m e
up I t hi nk about si x or seven i n t he m orni ng, yanked
m e out , you are now m anacl ed , fet t ered, dum ped i n
a car. They cl osed t he wi ndows, you know, bl ocked
t hem up so you don’t know where you are.
But I
knew Durban wel l I knew Durban Nort h as wel l I
coul d m ake out where t hey are goi ng. They went
37
down Bl ue Lagoon, you know t hat road. S o back i n
det ent i on and t he i nt errogat i on st art s i n earnest . A
whol e seri es of t hi ngs t ake pl ace.
You are beat en
up, t hey t hrow you on t he fl oor, t hey j um p on you.
You know j ust t he punches and al l of t hat were not
t oo bad but when t hese guys, heavy guys t hey
j um ped on m y chest , t hey burst m y herni a. I got a
burst herni a even up t i l l now, and al l ki nds of
t hi ngs, you know, t he beat i ngs. I don’t know when
duri ng t hat det ent i on peri od t hey beat m e up so
badl y t hat t hey dam aged m y ear.
I don’t have a
m i ddl e ear anym ore, t here i s a huge cavi t y i n t hat
ear. And t herefore I t el l peopl e t hat , you know, I’m
not
goi ng
to
part i ci pat e
in
t hi s
Trut h
and
R econci l i at i on and am nest y because t o m e, m y
t ort ure i s ever present . It 's t went y -four hours a day;
i t rem i nds m e b ecause I can’t hear cl earl y; m y back,
m y herni a hurt s, i t 's because I can never sl eep on
m y back. I've got t o sl eep on m y si de al l t he t i m e.
DS :
Di d your t ort ure go t o TR C ?
S V:
I di dn’t go t here. I refused t o part i ci pat e i n t hat
because t he whol e i dea of t he TR C was t o grant
am nest y t o t he perpet rat ors of vi ol ence. And t hat , I
coul dn’t accept .
And m y poi nt i s t hat i t ’s t oo l at e
for t hem t o com e and ask for pardon, you know. I'm
not God; I'm not a Tut u. They can do i t because t hey
di dn’t get t hei r backs k i cked, you see t hey can be
very
generous
wi t h
t he
grant i ng
pardons
and
am nest i es, and al l of t hat . But I don’t t hi nk any
person who was bei ng t ort ured wi l l freel y and
readi l y agree t o forgi ve.
I don’t know i f you guys
saw t hat C art e Bl anche fi l m . You rem e m ber we
showed i t i n
t he depart m ent . That was a cl assi c
38
case, you know, where peopl e j ust who were not
even t ort ured but whose uncl e or brot her was
t ort ured and he heard for t he fi rst t i m e. You know,
i nst i nct i vel y, you react by pi cki ng up a huge gl ass
vase and bash t hat guy’s head. That was a bri l l i ant
pi ece of fi l m i ng, you know. It wasn’t som et hi ng t hat
was pl anned, but i t was a spont aneous ki nd of t hi ng.
S o t hat ’s t he ki nd of feel i ng you have and I refused
t o do i t , and t hey went on and on, and you se e t hey
had arrest ed peopl e t hroughout S out h Afri ca, C ape
Town, J ohannesburg, Transkei , t here were m ore
t han 200 peopl e t hat t hey arrest ed and hel d i n
det ent i on. And as t he i nt errogat i on and t ort ure goes
on t hey woul d pi ck up what ’s goi ng on what ki nd of
i n form at i on t hey're get t i ng from peopl e t hat I knew
i n C ape Town, J ohannesburg and t he Transkei . If
t here are any di screpanci es i n what I was sayi ng,
t hen t he beat i ngs becom e m ore severe. That "you are
l yi ng"
you
know,
t hey
kept
aski ng
me
about
m eet i ngs t hat t ook pl ace i n C ape Town i n t he
si x t i es, you know, when you are i n t hat st at e you
can’t rem em ber cl earl y.
And at t he sam e t i m e you
don’t want t o di vul ge m ore t han t hat i s absol ut el y
necessary:
t hrough.
t hat ’s t he bi g probl em
t hat
you go
That you’l l gi ve as m uch as i s necessary
wi t hout i m pl i cat i ng ot her peopl e. And I got a l ot of
beat i ngs because of t hat . I had t o prot ect Morgam ,
Gaby, Madoda and Arm st rong. Those were t he four
peopl e t hat I had t o worry about .
And i t was bad
and I st ayed i n det ent i on f or about fi ve m ont hs i n
sol i t ary
confi nem ent .
No
vi si t s,
no
doct ors.
Magi st rat es, apparent l y used t o com e t here, and t he
guy woul d be si t t i ng and havi ng t ea wi t h t he
39
S ecuri t y P ol i ce and he woul d wal k by j ust sees you
he doesn’t t al k t o you. Onl y once I com pl ai ned
about t he food and t hey got even m ore angry wi t h
m e, and beat m e up for not hi ng, j ust for t hat . But , I
t hi nk at one st age, I don’t know when, you know
t i m e you don’t have cont rol over t i m e, you don’t
know t he di fference bet ween day and ni ght . I
rem em ber m y whol e body broke out i n a rash.
It
m ust have been a psychol ogi cal t hi ng.
DS :
W here were you by t hi s t i m e?
S V:
I was i n Durban i n det ent i on.
DS :
Okay, one of t he pol i ce st at i ons?
S V:
Durban Nort h P ol i ce S t at i on. That ’s why I was kept
in
Durban .
And
I
som ehow
I
t hi nk
t hey
got
fri ght ened about i t . And t hey t ook m e t o a di st ri ct
surgeon i n Durban. The guy seem ed t o be a ni ce guy
and he kept aski ng m e t hi ngs and al l of t hat and
t hen prescri bed m edi ci nes. I don’t know what i t
was.
And I was very s uspi ci ous of m edi ci nes and
t hi ngs t hat you get whi l st you are i n det ent i on
because
we
had
t hi s
at t i t ude
t owards
di st ri ct
surgeons and t hei r col l usi on wi t h t he pol i ce and al l
of t hat . S o t hey di dn’t gi ve al l t he m edi ci nes t o m e
at one t i m e. They were l eft i n t he charge offi ce and
every m orni ng t hey woul d - oh no, i n t he eveni ngs I
t hi nk t hey used t o gi ve m e t wo t abl et s or one, no
one t abl et pl us som et hi ng el se som e cream t o rub.
The cream I used but t he t abl et s - I was scared t o
t ake t hem because I di dn’t know what t hey were. S o
t here were cracks i n t he fl oor t here I used t o wrap
t hem up i n t oi l et paper and st uff t hem i n t here you
see. And pret ended t hat I had t ook t hem but i t t ook
a whi l e t o go but what had happened t hen was t hat
40
my
youngest
son
was
born ,
whi l st
I
was
in
det ent i on. And one t hi ng t hey prom i sed m e t o t el l
m e whet her Trees gave bi rt h or not . S o one m orni ng
t hey, or was i t t he eveni ng, I t hi nk t hey com e t hey
open t he peephol e and say t hey t ol d m e "you have a
son."
DS :
J ust l i ke t hat ?
S V:
J ust l i ke t hat and wal ked out . W el l when you are i n
det ent i on
som et i m es.
you
t hi nk
you
are
very
i rrat i onal
You know I t hought l ook t hey t ol d m e
t hat I have a son. They di dn’t t el l m e anyt hi ng about
Trees.
And t hen I t hought okay Trees m ust have
di ed i n chi l dbi rt h and al l of t hat ki nd of t hi ng.
DS :
S o you got worri ed?
S V:
S orry?
DS :
You got worri ed?
S V:
I got you know, yes, t erri bl y di st raught , and cri ed
and t hen I rem em bered t hese t abl et s. I t ook t hem out
and I t hi nk I had about t went y of t hem by t hen. And
fet ched a m ug of wat er and I was j ust about t o t ake
t hem .
I want ed t o com m i t sui ci de.
And t hen I
heard m y daught er scream , "Daddy, don’t do t hat ,"
and I j ust dropped i t .
It wasn’t real but I m ean
t hat ’s what went t hrough m y head. I heard her
di st i nct l y t el l i ng m e "Daddy don’t do t hat " and I
dropped i t . Then I pi ck up t hese t abl et s, t hey were
Val i um 10’s. I woul d have gone i f I had t aken t hose
t hi ngs.
S o I owe m y daught er m y l i fe.
But t hat ’s
how cl ose you com e t o dyi ng i n det ent i on because, I
t hi nk, I don’t know whet her I sai d t hi s earl i er t hat i f
anybody gave m e a choi ce: t went y years i n pri son or
t en days i n det ent i on.
W i t hout bat t i ng an eyel i d, I
woul d t ake t went y years i n pri son because at l east I
41
know at t he end of t went y years I can com e back
hom e.
In det ent i on t here i s no cert ai nt y t hat you
wi l l com e out of i t al i ve. You know, t he hi st ory of
S out h Afri can secret pol i ce’s i s real l y ri di cul ous.
The few we hear about are t he known cases but what
about t housands t hey m ust have ki l l ed off and
t hrow n i n ri vers especi al l y i n t he rural areas.
That ’s where t hey were absol ut el y brut al .
And i t
went on and on unt i l event ual l y t hey cam e t o m e and
sai d, "Look, we want you t o be a st at e wi t ness."
I
was shocked out of m y wi t s t hat t hey woul d com e
and ask m e t o becom e a st at e wi t ness because I
t hi nk duri ng t hose days for anybody t o becom e a
st at e wi t ness was a m ost i gnom i ni ous t hi ng.
You
know i t was a t erri bl e t hi ng; I m ean i t ’s l i ke
pat ri ci de or m at ri ci de you know. S o I woul dn’t say
a t hi ng: I j ust kept qu i et about i t and I know t hat
t hey were t ryi ng t o be l eni ent wi t h m e, you know,
offeri ng t o buy m e ci garet t es; and al l of t hose
t hi ngs were t aki ng pl ace t ryi ng t o pri m e m e up.
Unt i l
very
m uch
l at er,
som ewhere
in
J une
or
som ewhere around t here, t hey cam e t o m e and sai d:
"R i ght , we're t aki ng you t o Mari t z burg."
And I
know t hat day was a very hot , hot day. There was a
huge t abl e for fourt een S ecuri t y P ol i ce who were i n
charge
of
t hi s
case
t hroughout
t he
count ry.
S wanepoel , rem em ber t hat guy, a real m onst er o f a
chap.
They put m e at t he bot t om end of t he t abl e
and had t wo heat ers behi nd m e, a l ong burni ng hot
day. And t hen st art ed t el l i ng m e: "R i ght , t hese are
your opt i ons: you gi ve t he evi dence, we'l l l et off
Ni na Hassi m , we won’t charge her; we won’t charg e
anot her person i n C ape Town", and al l of t hat . "W e
42
m ay not even charge Moodl ey and Gaby P i l l ay, we
m i ght use t hem as wi t nesses."
S ee, t he whol e
st rat egy I knew t hat i f I don’t gi ve evi dence t here i s
nobody t o gi ve, t o you know, t hey won’t have
anybody agai nst Arm st rong and Madoda and Kader.
That ’s how I l ooked at i t .
And I knew t hat
Arm st rong and Madoda and al l of t hese guys won’t
gi ve evi dence you know t hat ’s, t hat ’s t he ki nd of
feel i ng you had wi t h t he ol d com rades.
But t hen
t hey j ust grabbed m e t o ok m e i nt o a shut t ered room ,
beat m e up t erri bl y t hat day because I refused t o
gi ve evi dence. They t ook m y t est i cl es put i t i nt o a
drawer and sl am m ed i t .
m om ent
I
regai ned
I passed out .
consci ousness
P i et erm ari t z burg P ri son.
The nex t
was
at
t he
I rem em ber t hey t ook
away m y bel t I had t o hol d m y pant s, and t hey gave
m e a bucket , a sl op -pai l I’m hol di ng t hat and
wal ki ng. And t hey di dn’t speak a word t hey j ust al l
t he t i m e t hey hel d m e by t he scruff of neck and
wal ked m e up.
And when I got t o t he pri son cel l s
t hat was t he best m om ent of m y l i fe i n si x m ont hs,
because
t here
I
saw
Kader
com rades whom t hey charged.
and
al l
t he
ot her
And at l ast I knew
t hat I’m goi ng t o be charged and t hat I’m agai n wi t h
com rades and i t was great because t hi s was deat h
row i n P i et erm ari t z burg P ri son.
And you di dn’t
have seal ed doors i t was al l caged ki nd of t hi ng you can l ook across.
And t hat was i t , and t hen a
week l at er we were form al l y charged.
END TAP E 1B
TAP E 2A :
INTER VIEW HELD ON THE 8TH AUGUS T
2002
43
DS :
P rof S un ny, can you st i l l rem em ber t he nam es of t he
pol i cem en who t ort ured you?
S V:
I t hi nk t he person who was i n charge of t he
operat i on agai nst us i n Durban was C apt ai n S t adl er
and
he
was
Li eut enant
assi st ed
W ood.
by
Du
Toi t
a
guy
was
cal l ed
t here,
W ood,
C apt ai n
Nayager, Benj am i n, P erum al , or som ebody el se but
t here were a l ot . And t here were l ot s of Afri cans.
DS :
Oh, securi t y?
S V:
I don’t know t he nam es.
DS :
Okay.
S V:
S ecuri t y pol i ce, but
bi ggest
t ort urer’s
Nayager
const abl e.
and
Van
guys t hat
in
my
Dyk.
case
He
real l y were t he
were
was
an
Benj am i n,
ordi nary
But he was, al t hough Nayager was a
C apt ai n at t hat st age, he had t o t ake i nst ruct i ons
from Van Dyk, and t hey went on and on. And t hey
were t o m e, Van Dyk and Nayager, were t he bi ggest
t ort urer’s. The ot he rs woul d punch and ki ck, and
you know, but t hese guys were real l y seri ous. They
foul m out hed, you know, t he t hi ngs t hey sai d t o
you: t hat Trees wi l l gi ve bi rt h i n t he cel l s t here wi t h
m e and how t hey were goi ng t o pul l t he baby out : i t
was t oo di sgust i ng.
But when t hey t hrew m e i nt o
P i et erm ari t z burg P ri son i t was an i m m ense rel i ef
and a week l at er we were charged. And for t he fi rst
t i m e I see we cal l ed for Navi [ P i l l ay] as our
at t orney, and Trees was t here, and Ni na cam e i n.
And i t was t he m ost beaut i fu l t hi ng t hat coul d have
happened t o us. To be charged, at l east t he t ort ure
has com e t o an end. And t hat was i t . The t ri al t ook
about a year and a hal f.
And t hey used 200
wi t nesses agai nst us. You know, I t hought t hat I
44
went t hrough severe t ort ure but w hen we m et t he
peopl e from t he Transkei , t hen what happened t o us
was real l y m i ni m al .
Because t he Transkei peopl e;
t hey arrest ed about 150 of t hem and set up a t ort ure
cam p i n a pl ace cal l ed Kam bat i .
DS :
Kam bat i .
S V:
Ya, i t s i n a forest : Kam bat i Forest , a nd what t hey
di d t here was j ust pi ck up peopl e. You know, t hese
are poor peasant s and we had a st rong presence i n
t he Transkei .
W e were fai rl y act i ve and t hey j ust
pi ck t hese peopl e up bri ng t hem t o t he forest , no
i nt errogat i on, not hi ng. Every one of t hos e, wi t hout
ex cept i on,
t hey
hung
t hem
up
by
t hei r
feet
overni ght .
DS :
By t hei r feet , m eani ng t hey woul d t ake t hei r feet
wi t h t hei r head’s upsi de down?
S V:
Hang t hem up i n a t ree and l eave t hem t here for t he
whol e ni ght .
And t hen t he nex t day t hey st art
beat i ng t hem , no quest i ons asked, not hi ng.
No
act ual i nt errogat i on, t hey j ust beat t hese guys up.
And up t i l l t oday, you know, even i n court we t ri ed
t o prove t hat t here was t ort ure. Of course, t he j udge
woul dn’t hear of i t : t hese are P ondo's, you know,
wi t h t ri bal t hi ng.
You have t hese t ri bal wars and
t hat ’s how t hey got t hei r scars on t hei r backs. Two
peopl e di ed i n Kam bat i , at t hat st age. One guy
act ual l y sel f -i nfl i ct ed; he cut hi s wri st and di ed, and
I rem em ber t he guy’s nam e was J akedi , and som e
horri bl e st ori es t hat t hey t ol d us t ook pl ace t here.
Ours was not hi ng. The peopl e i n t he Transvaal were
al so brought down t o Kam bat i Forest . W hat t hey di d
wi t h t hem was i n t ransi t from J ohannesburg t o
Kam bat i ; t hey put pebbl es i n t hei r shoes, and got
45
t hem t o wear t hem and t hen m ade t hem st and. You
know, i t sounds i nnocuous t hi ngs l i ke, you know,
pebbl es, and you know t ry st andi ng on pebbl es for
t went y-four hours or som et hi ng. And what happens,
t he l egs j ust bl ew up. And t hose were t he days.
Anyway t he t ri al t akes pl ace we t ri ed t o bri ng i n t he
quest i on of t ort ure - t he j udge woul dn’t al l ow i t .
He says i t ’s not rel evant and di dn’t t ake pl ace. W e
had a -t ri al -wi t hi n -a-t ri al . But t he saddest t hi ng was
when
com rades
gave
evi dence
agai nst
you.
I
woul dn’t have m i nd i f t hey sai d t he t rut h and went ,
you know, i t woul d have been not t oo bad, because
whi l st I was i n det ent i on I coul d hear t hem cry, t hey
were bei ng beat en up as wel l . Very badl y, you
know, t hey cri ed. I coul d hear t hem . But when t hey
cam e and gave ev i dence agai nst m e and Kader, i t
was fal se evi dence. You know t hey sai d t hat we
were recrui t i ng for m i l i t ary t rai ni ng, whi ch wasn’t
t rue, i t was t ot al l y fal se. And anyway t hey gave
evi dence. There was onl y one guy, one youngst er
from C ape Town, t hat when he cam e i nt o gi ve
evi dence, he sai d t hat he was t ort ured. And he t ri ed
t o speak t he t rut h, and S wanepoel , i n t he presence
of t he j udge, S wanepoel grabbed hi m by hi s bel t and
t ook hi m away, back i nt o det ent i on. Fort unat el y for
m e,
bot h
Gaby
and
Morgam
refuse d
to
gi ve
evi dence. And event ual l y t hey l et t hem out ; I t hi nk
aft er a year or, I don’t know, som et hi ng.
They
st ayed i n det ent i on, but event ual l y t hey l et t hem
out .
And personal l y for m e, you know, and m y
fam i l y: I t ri ed t o get m y fam i l y t o be non -raci al and
peopl e l i ke Arm st rong and Nkosi used t o vi si t m e
weekends wi t h t hei r fam i l i es. And m y parent s used
46
t o be surpri sed about t hese guys; t hey are not t hugs,
not rogues you know t hat ’s t he percept i on t hey had
about Afri cans.
But when t hese t wo gave evi de nce
agai nst m e, t he t hi ng t urned around agai n.
S o you
can’t t rust an Afri can, t hat ki nd of an at t i t ude.
I
sai d what about al l t he ot her C ol oured’s i n C ape
Town t hat gave evi dence, you know, and al l t he
peopl e [ who sai d] t hat m y m ai n rol e at t hat st age
was rai si ng t he funds for t hi s whol e operat i on. And
al l t he ot her peopl e cam e and gave evi dence but
t hey t ol d t he t rut h t hat I cam e and I sai d and I di d
say what i t was for.
It was j ust for t he Movem ent
and t hey j ust gave i t t o m e. And t hat ’s i t . I sai d t h ey
gave evi dence but t hat evi dence di dn’t ki l l m e, you
know. Di dn’t hang m e at al l . But t he poi nt i s t hat
peopl e, som e gave evi dence, som e di d not gi ve
evi dence.
But t o m y parent s sadl y Morgam and
Gaby were t he bi g heroes for t hem , and t hey
percei ved t h at as bei ng because t hey are Indi ans.
They were good com rades.
Anot her t wo, because
t hey were Afri cans, t hey were bad com rades; you
can’t t rust t hem .
S o t hese are t he t hi ngs t hat
rei nforced percept i ons, raci sm , and al l of t hese
t hi ngs. And we need t o u nderst and t hi s as wel l . S o
we get , event ual l y aft er ei ght een m ont hs of t ri al
suddenl y, we get convi ct ed.
I got t wel ve years, I
got charged wi t h t wo count s si x years each; and
sent enced t o hard l abour, and al l of t hat . Aft er we
were t ri ed and convi ct ed t hey m ade us cut our hai r
short .
DS :
Your hai r short ?
S V:
Ya.
DS :
Okay.
47
S V:
Moust aches, whoever had m oust aches, were out .
And i t was so bi z arre you know. P eopl e, you know,
woul d for ei ght een m ont hs, you coul dn’t recogni se
t hem because ei t her t he beard or t he m oust aches are
t aken out , and so who i s t hi s guy?
You know, you
real l y have t o l ook and t hi nk who peopl e were.
It
wasn’t so bad wi t h us but anyway we were put i nt o a
t ruck and gi ven new cl ot hes, pri son out fi t and
dri ven t o Leeukop.
DS :
Leeukop?
S V:
P ret ori a.
DS :
Okay.
S V:
And when we got t here; Leeukop i s a beaut i ful
pri son from t he out si de.
W e were real l y happy t o
get t here because P i et erm at i t z burg P ri son was a
dungeon.
It was deat h row; we were l i vi ng i n a
fi l t hy, di rt y, horri bl e pri son, one of t hese ol d
pri sons you see.
saw
Leeukop:
And i t was real l y bad. W hen we
beaut i ful ,
you
know,
face -bri ck
bui l di ngs, beaut i ful gardens out si de, and al l of t hat .
Anyway,
we
get
i nt o
recept i on,
t ake
off
your
cl ot hes, because t hose cl ot hes apparent l y have t o go
back t o P i et erm ari t z burg.
Then t hey m ade us wal k
naked four fl oors down. The deeper we got , t he
col der and m ore sl i m y and di ngy i t becam e.
For
about t wo hours we were wi t hout cl ot hes. In pri son
one of t he condi t i ons i s t hat once you ent er a pri son
you h ave t o be ex am i ned by a m edi cal doct or.
W het her you are fi t
t o serve your sent ence.
So
t here’s a doct or si t t i ng t here at a t abl e, st et hoscope
hangi ng round hi s neck, not where i t shoul d have
been.
Tal ki ng t o ot her warders t here, and you are
supposed t o fi l e and he has got hi s st et hoscope out
48
l i ke t hat doesn’t t ouch you. And you wal k past , so
he cert i fi es you fi t . Go t hrough t hat ; t hey m ake you
bend and see whet her you are sm uggl i ng t hi ngs and
al l of t hat .
And t hen t hey i ssued us wi t h cl ot hes,
short p ant s and a hal f -sl eeved shi rt fi l t hy.
They
were ful l of chi cken shi t , i t was real l y, real l y
horri bl e.
Anyway we wore t hat and t hen t hey
event ual l y t ake t ook us ri ght down t o t he cel l .
It
was an i sol at i on ki nd of a cel l ; i t was a cel l about
t hree quart er s of t hi s and hal f t he si z e. And put
t hree ot her peopl e t here. N.T. Nai cker was t here, so
t hat gave us hope. S o at l east t here was a face t hat
we recogni z ed, and t here was anot her person t here
t hat was on hi s way out from R obben Isl and, Lol o.
S o t hat was great .
S o t hey put sevent een of us;
t here were t wo ot her cri m i nal or com m on l aw
pri soners, i n t here as wel l . And t hey put sevent een
of us i n t hat cel l and i t was so crowded t hat you had
t o sl eep on your si de. And i f you want ed t o t urn t he
whol e sevent e en had t o t urn.
There was no room
you can’t l i e on your back.
And t hi s m at and a
bl anket each, and t hi s i s i n J ul y, i t ’s col d, Leeukop
i s a very col d pl ace.
W e were l ocked up for m ore
t han t went y-t hree and a hal f hours a day i n t hat cel l .
Two sl op -pai l s i n front ; t hey woul d bri ng breakfast
about fi ve i n t he m orni ng. W e can hear t hem cl ang,
cl ang, cl ang, st acked out si de. W e had - onl y opened
t he out si de door, t hi s st eel -pl at ed door, at about
seven o’cl ock, and pass you your porri dge. They
were abl e t o pass t he porri dge si deways because i t
was now congeal ed and col d so you at e your
porri dge bot h from t he underneat h and from t he t op.
Because a l ot of i t was st uck on t he bot t om as wel l
49
so you at e t hat and t hey gave you som e ki nd of
coffee, and t hat was yo ur breakfast .
You were l et
out about t en o’cl ock; gi ven hal f an hour t o em pt y
your sl op -pai l s and have a shower, an open shower
i n wi nt er, fi ne spray, you know. It was col d;
if it
was a hard open spray you can t ake i t , but when you
have a fi ne spray, i t ’ s horri bl e. There was no face cl ot h: t hey gave us a di sh -cl ot h, cut i nt o four
pi eces, and t hey gave t hat t o us. The food i n
Leeukop was real l y, real l y t erri bl e. I t hi nk t hey
del i berat el y put i n barrel l oads of st one, sand, m uck
i n t he food - i t was al m ost i nedi bl e. No m eat , once
t hey gave m eat i t was rot t en m eat . W e com pl ai ned,
and
t he
offi cer
com m andi ng
com es
t here
and
t hreat ened us t hat t hey wi l l put us on spare di et for
com pl ai ni ng.
I sai d, "Look, I’m a but cher. I know
m y m eat ." Because one of t he pra ct i ces i n a com m on
l aw pri son - and we saw t hi s i n P i et erm ari t z burg, as
wel l - one t he t rust ees you know, t he com m on l aw
pri soners,
col l ect s
t he
m eat
and
sel l s
so
t he
pri soners real l y don’t get anyt hi ng. If you have got
m oney you buy m eat and you can buy anyt hi ng
perhaps i n pri son.
And we found t he food real l y
horri bl e i n t erm s of cl eanl i ness and al l of t hat . The
sam e t hi ng: porri dge i n t he m orni ng; m eal i e ri ce for
l unch; and m eal i e ri ce agai n for supper.
DS :
S o whi l e you were t here were your parent s abl e t o
vi si t you?
S V:
No, no vi si t i ng.
DS :
No vi si t i ng, even t hough you were charged and
convi ct ed?
S V:
Ya. W e were not graded yet , you see.
DS :
Okay.
50
S V:
Once t hey grade you, t hen you are ent i t l ed t o ei t her
one vi si t or t wo vi si t s, or what ever i t i s. S o n one of
t hat t ook pl ace. W e were t here for about t hree
m ont hs i n Leeukop; and t he cl ot hes was t he t hi ng
t hat real l y got us; t hat once a week t hey gi ve you a
change of cl ot hes and i t not your own, so you don’t
do your own washi ng; som ebody el se does i t but
t hey gi ve you fi l t hy cl ot hes al l t he t i m e. And i t was
real l y bad, no shoes.
DS :
Barefoot . You were bare feet ?
S V:
Ya, and i t was bad.
But anyway, aft er about t hree
m ont hs, t hey cal l ed us out one day on a S unday
about t wel ve o'cl ock or som et hi ng, l oaded us up
i nt o a bakki e, back of a bakki e and onl y l eft
Leeukop at about four o’cl ock.
W e di dn’t have
l unch, we had we coul dn’t even go t o t he t oi l et . Of
course,
we
were
m anacl ed
to
one
anot her,
handcuffed and m anacl ed i n pai rs.
DS :
C an we pause? P rofessor S unny, what was t he st at e
of your heal t h by t hi s t i m e?
S V:
I t hi nk m y heal t h was general l y good ex cept t hat , by
t hen, m y ears, m y m i ddl e ear was gone - t hey had t o
t ake t hat out .
herni a.
I had crushed geni t al s and a burst
Ot herwi se, I t hi nk, for t he one and a hal f
years t hat we were i n P i et erm ari t z burg, we had good
food because we were al l owed t o get food from
hom e.
And t he fam i l i es and peopl e i n Mari t z burg
real l y fed us so we were real l y fat t ened when we
l eft P i et erm ari t z burg P ri son.
S o we got i n fai r l y
good shape, ex cept t he physi cal t hi ngs t hat we went
t hrough, you know. W hat I am t ryi ng t o say i s, we
di dn’t get si ck even i n Leeukop. Ex cept your col ds
and coughs and al l of t hat ; ot herwi se we were i n
51
fai rl y good ni ck. And I t hi nk t hat hel ped us as w el l
for t hat j ourney from P ret ori a t o C ape Town. They
di d a nonst op dri ve i n t he dead of wi nt er, dead of
wi nt er t hrough t he Karoo.
They woul dn’t st op for
us t o go t o t he bat hroom or t oi l et or anyt hi ng. Most
of us, i f not al l us, peed i n our pant s.
The o nl y
warm pl ace on t he back of t hat bakki e was t he ax l e
rungs, you know - t he crown wheel , t here i s a l i t t l e
bi t of warm t h, we used t o put our hand t here and we
used t o t ake t urns t o get t o t hat pl ace.
Anyway
l ook, we were pret t y ex ci t ed t hat goi ng t o R obb en
Isl and;
we
were
goi ng
to
be
l i vi ng
am ongst
com rades; and very rom ant i c i deas of R obben Isl and
because Lol o t ol d us what was happeni ng. Anyway
we get t o R obben Isl and and got out of t he boat , no
before
we
get
ont o
t he
boat
t hey
t ook
us...
[ i nt errupt i on]
DS :
W hat year was t hat ?
S V:
1972.
DS :
1972.
S V:
Ya.
They
st opped
in
a
pri son
som ewhere
in
Durbanvi l l e or som ewhere, t hey gave us breakfast
t here, around, i t was about fi ve i n t he m orni ng.
It
was hot porri dge, no spoons, you had t o use your
fi ngers and yo u have t o si t out i n t he yard.
No
j acket s, no not hi ng, no j erseys, and t hey gave us
hal f an hour. W e coul dn’t eat i t because i t was t oo
hot we coul dn’t put even our fi ngers i n i t . Anyway
we got back; t hey j ust l oaded us back and t ook us t o
t he docks and put us on t hi s boat and m ade us wal k
i nt o t he hol d. You were not al l owed t o si t on t op
and t hat hol d was used t o t ransport pi gs and al l
ki nds of rubbi sh: st i nky, st i nky pl ace. And I know
52
i t , i t was al m ost i m possi bl e for peopl e t o wal k down
t hat because you are m anacl ed and handcuffed. You
know you have t o do i t si deways.
You know, we
were younger, rel at i vel y, we had ol d peopl e t here i n
70's and 75's, how t hey scram bl ed down t hat we
don’t know. Anyway, we get down t here and I t hi nk
t he onl y t hi ng t hat r eal l y kept us goi ng was we are
goi ng t o get t o R obben Isl and.
m eet com rades t here agai n.
And we are goi ng
And get off t he boat ,
st i l l m anacl ed, wal ked. I rem em ber t he fi rst warder
we saw as we were com i ng i nt o t he recept i on was
t he guy wi t h no [ nose] br i dge. He l ooked grot esque.
He was a whi t e warder, wi t h a num ber of pri soners
around hi m . That gave us a bi t of shock because we
began t hi nki ng t hat R obben Isl and was a l eper
col ony and was t hi s guy a vi ct i m of l eprosy or
anyt hi ng l i ke t hat . But i roni cal l y t hat guy, we used
t o cal l hi m ‘P uz am andl a’, R obi nson was hi s nam e.
He was t he ki ndest warder on R obben Isl and and we
al l began t o l i ke hi m event ual l y. But you know, t hi s
i s once agai n - appearances real l y are t erri bl e t hi ngs
you know, you adopt an at t i t ude i m m edi at el y you
see t hi s guy. And he was al so whi t e. He was one of
t hose ol d Engl i shm en who was on t he Isl and;
worked on t he l eper col ony; for som e reason t hey
j ust kept hi m on. And he used t o be i n charge of t he
gardeni ng t eam . Anyway we get i nt o r ecept i on agai n
t hey t ake away t hese fi l t hy cl ot hes t hat you cam e i n.
Now we get cl ean new cl ot hes for R obben Isl and.
Indi ans got l ong pant s, a shi rt ; a j acket ; a hat . You
got shoes; you were gi ven socks; and you were
gi ven a j ersey. That was your out fi t . And t he
Afri cans were gi ven t he sam e t hi ngs ex cept t hat
53
t hey di dn’t get shoes, t hey got sandal s and t hey
were gi ven a cap, you see.
DS :
They were gi ven a cap?
S V:
C ap.
DS :
And t he Indi ans a hat ?
S V:
Ya, and C ol oureds t he hat s. S o we di dn’t know t he
dynam i cs of R obben Isl and, even Lol o di dn’t t el l us
about t hese t hi ngs.
S o anyway we get i nt o, m arch
us t o a sect i on of t he pri son cal l ed E sect i on and a
surpri se for us on t he out si de i n t he yard t here was,
som ebody
ABDUS A."
wrot e
in
huge
l et t ers
"W el com e
S o news had al ready got t o t hem you
know. Thi s was fant ast i c t hi ng about pri son; t hat
som ehow t hey get i nform at i on what ’s happeni ng.
And nobody was t here no pri soners were t here, at
t hat st age; because i t was duri ng t he day now and
we wal k i n, and t hri l l ed wi t h t hi s cel l t hey put us
i n, t he cel l t hat coul d hol d about 250 peopl e.
Norm al l y, i t was a pl ai n open bl ank cel l t hey gave
us t wo bl anket s; pl us a m at ; and t here were t oi l et s,
you
know
it
was
an en -sui t e;
si nks
- it
was
gl i st eni ng, i t was beaut i ful com p ared t o Leeukop
and P i et erm ari t z burg - t hat was fi l t hy.
pai l s here.
No sl op -
Anyway surpri se, surpri se, l uncht i m e
t hey brought food for us; t hey had a di ni ng room as
wel l , and food com es and i t was cl i ni cal l y cl ean. I
rem em ber: i t was m eal i e ri ce and bean s, you know
dri ed beans boi l ed. It was so cl ean com pared t o
what we had been t hrough at Leeukop, t hat we j ust
gul ped, and i m m edi at el y spat i t out because i t was
bi t t er.
They cooked t he food on R obben Isl and i n
brak wat er, i t 's bi t t er, bi t t er wat er. The s am e t hi ng;
we al l ran t o t he si nks t o dri nk wat er t here.
54
DS :
It was bi t t er?
S V:
No t here t he wat er i s pl ai n sal t wat er ri ght from t he
sea, because seaweed and al l t hose t hi ngs t o com e
out .
Onl y l at er, di d t hey gave us a l i t re of brak
wat er per day.
That ’ s your dri nki ng wat er.
And
what happened wi t h t hat wat er i s t hat wi t hi n a few
days you were runni ng t o t he t oi l et every t hi rt y
m i nut es, because I t hi nk of t he sal t cont ent .
You
j ust can’t sl eep, everybody i s get t i ng up and goi ng
t o t he t oi l et , goi ng t o t he t oi l et . You spend hal f t he
ni ght , real l y, goi ng t o t he t oi l et . Anyway t hat
aft ernoon t he guys from t hat sect i on; now t here are
ot her peopl e; t here were about 12 ANC peopl e.
Um kont o peopl e i n one cel l , and t here were about
60 S W AP O peopl e i n anot her ce l l . And al l t ol d we
were 30 i n our group; i n a separat e cel l but we had a
com m on di ni ng room . It was a H -t ype arrangem ent ,
you know, four cel l s; t hey used one as a di ni ng
room .
And of course everybody wel com ed us.
It
was great ; we di dn’t know anybody; e x cept we knew
about t he Um kont o peopl e because t he t ri al was i n
Nat al , Mari t z burg. These were t he peopl e t hat were
sol d by But hel ez i .
But hel ez i was t he one who
pi m ped on t hem and t hey got caught . And onl y l ast
week I read t hat one of t he guys di ed, Mpan z a: l ast
week I t hi nk he di ed, yes.
And anyway we got on
wel l .
coul dn’t
We
found
t hat
we
com m uni cat e
real l y, wi t h t he Nam i bi ans, because t hey don’t
speak Engl i sh. They can speak a bi t of Afri kaans,
but t hey coul d hardl y speak Engl i sh.
But t he m ost
beaut i ful peopl e t hat I have com e across; and t he
st ori es t hey t el l you and t he t ri al s t hat t hey went
t hrough, you know, i n t he fi ght agai nst t he S out h
55
Afri cans.
Im agi ne t hese are real peasant s from
al m ost a S t one Age era, you know, t ryi ng t o shoot
down hel i cop t ers wi t h bows and arrows, who st i l l
m ade fi re rubbi ng t wo st i cks, t hey st i l l di d i t ; and
t hey were pret t y good at i t . You know, carvi ng wi t h
st one. S o what we di d i n t he begi nni ng was t hat we
went out choppi ng wood for t he warders; cut bi g
pi eces of wood i nt o sm al l pi eces; break t hem , you
know, l i ke you buy wood for barbecues, and t hat
ki nd of t hi ng - t hat ’s what we were doi ng. That was
l ovel y; we went out i nt o t he bush choppi ng t hese
P ort J ackson W i l l ows; i t was fun because you went
ri ght i nt o t he bush a nd al l of t hat .
But t hen t hey
found t hat we were t ryi ng t o hol d l i t eracy cl asses
for t he Nam i bi ans and for t he peopl e i n our sect i on
who were t ot al l y i l l i t erat e i n Engl i sh, ri ght ? S o t hey
st opped t aki ng us i nt o t he bush t o chop wood. They
brought us i nt o t he sect i on i t sel f; brought st ones a
fi ve-pound ham m er; you si t t here and break st ones.
That was real l y devast at i ng because, you know, you
got t o si t t here and break st ones from ei ght i n t he
m orni ng t i l l four i n t he aft ernoon. And t he warder
j ust com es a nd ki cks i t out , i t was usel ess, I m ean i t
was not put t o any use, and we went on doi ng t hat .
Anyway, we st i l l cont i nued hol di ng cl asses out si de
because we had st one and we used t o use st one t o
wri t e on, sl at e, and we di d t hat and when a warder
was not t o o bad he woul d t urn a bl i nd eye t o i t . But
we had nast y warders who woul d cat ch you and t ake
you i nt o sol i t ary confi nem ent .
He’l l say, “Three
m eal s.” Now t hree m eal s doesn’t m ean t hat you are
goi ng t o get t hree m eal s - i t m eant t hat you m i ssed
56
t hree con secut i ve m eal s.
They t ook you and put
i nt o, i n pri son l anguage t hey cal l i t Koel koet ri ght .
DS :
Koel koet ?
S V:
Ya.
DS :
Okay I’ve heard of t hat
S V:
You have heard of t hat . They put you i nt o i sol at i on,
t ake away al l your bl anket s everyt hi ng, put you i n
t here and no food, t hree m eal s - you m i ss breakfast ,
supper, l unch, you m i ss t hose you com e back t hat ’s
t hree m eal s.
DS :
C an I get cl ari t y on Koel koet t oo. Is i t l i ke,
what
do you cal l i t - l i ke i t ’s bui l t l i ke i t ’s short ,
basi cal l y.
S V:
No, no, no.
DS : Oh, okay.
S V:
It was an i dent i cal cel l t o t he si ngl e cel l , ya.
DS :
Oh okay.
S V:
Ex cept t hat i t was a sect i on of a pri son where - you
know R obben Isl and i s an i sl and, and when t he t i de
com es i n you can act ual l y pi ck up enough wat er
from t he wal l s and have a go od wash. It was dam p,
t hat si de of t he i sl and was very, very wet . Al t hough
i t was part of t he si ngl e cel l ; t he sam e horseshoe
com pl ex t hat wi ng; because i t ’s sl i ght l y l ower i t
was al ways dam p. Anyway I had about t hree m eal s;
I don’t know for what - t he warder doesn’t l i ke your
face i n t he m orni ng, he’l l say t hree m eal s and t hey
m arch you off i nt o sol i t ary confi nem ent . And you do
your t hree m eal s - t hi s was goi ng on; ot hers al so
went t hrough t he sam e probl em unt i l we got real l y
fed up about t hese warders shout i ng at us. No
recreat i on;
anot her
not
duri ng
al l owi ng
t he
you
to
weekends;
mix
wi t h
S at urdays
one
and
57
S undays we di dn’t work; so we were sort of fed up
about t hi s and we deci ded t hat we are goi ng t o wri t e
a - oh, t he ot her t hi ng I t hi nk I need t o t el l you i s
t hat
i n pri sons t hroughout
S out h Afri ca, on a
S unday m orni ng t hey have an i nspect i on.
W here
you st and t o at t ent i on and i n front of your rol l ed
bl anket and your handkerchi ef i n front , t hey al so
gi ve you a khaki handkerchi ef.
S o I never used i t
because we had t o have t hi s for i nspect i on you see
so you st and t here t o at t ent i on. And i f you want t o
m ake any request , you m ake t he request .
Then
t hey’l l al l ow you gi ve you a pi ece of paper, ful l scap
paper, you put i t down i n wri t i ng and t hen gi ve i t
back t o t hem on Monday. And t hen t hat t hi ng goes
to
t he
Offi cer
C om m andi ng
who
t hen
deci des
whet her t o accede t o your request or what ever t he
request i s, whet her you want t o see a dent i st or have
your eyes t est ed or what ever, as l ong as you have a
com pl ai nt , o kay?
That was t he procedure. S o we
deci ded t hat - no what t hey di d before t hat was t hey
t ook
away
al l
our
pri vi l eges,
al l
our
wri t i ng
m at eri al , books t hat we had, novel s t hat we had, or
what ever,
everyt hi ng,
penci l s,
paper,
everyt hi ng - t hey t oo k away from us.
pens,
and
And we
want ed t o wri t e t hi s pet i t i on - we can’t ask t hem for
paper because t hey woul dn’t gi ve i t t o us. S o what
we di d was, we found a cem ent bag t hat fl ew over
t he fence.
W e grabbed t hat , we washed i t out
properl y, cut i t neat l y and we di dn’t have a penci l ,
so som ebody som ehow sm uggl ed a penci l t hat si z e,
real l y t hat si z e, we wrot e out a pet i t i on dem andi ng
t o be t reat ed as pol i t i cal pri soner’s i n t erm s of t he
Geneva C onvent i on. W e dem anded a copy of pri son
58
regul at i ons; we dem anded t he ri ght t o st udy; proper
recreat i on faci l i t i es; t he qual i t y of food; vi si t s;
access t o l i brary. The general sect i on had a l i brary
- we want ed access t o t hat .
And we com pl ai ned
about t he nat ure of our work; t he t edi um and al l of
t hat .
And t hen we gave on t hi s, one S unday
m orni ng i nspect i on, we handed - we got al l t he
pri soners t o si gn, si gn t hi s pet i t i on and we gave i t
t o t he Offi cer C om m andi ng. They j ust t ook i t ; t hey
di dn’t say anyt hi ng, and went off. I t hi nk I need t o
backt rack here, I t hi nk I l ost event s okay.
DS :
Okay i t 's fi ne.
S V:
The sect i on t hat we were i n was cal l ed t he Terrori st
S ect i on. Al l peopl e t ri ed and charged and convi ct ed
under t he Terrori sm Act were put i nt o t hat sect i on.
Therefore i t was S W AP O peopl e fi rst ; t he Um kont o
peopl e were t he s econd; we were t he t hi rd l ot of
peopl e t hat were charged and convi ct ed under t he
Terrori sm Act . S o t hat sect i on was cal l ed t he
Terri es, we were t he Terri es.
DS :
The Terri es.
S V:
Ya, and t he warders al so saw us as peopl e t hat raped
t hei r m ot hers and si st ers and ki l l ed t hei r babi es, you
know, t hat we were real t errori st s.
S o i t wasn’t a
ni ce at t i t ude t hat t hey had t owards us, real l y raw,
rough, crude, al l t he t i m e sweari ng at us. And i t was
duri ng t hat t i m e t hat when we were t eachi ng t hese
peopl e t o read and wri t e t hat t hey t ook away al l
t hese
pri vi l eges;
sm oki ng
ci garet t es,
not hi ng
al l owed. And one S unday m orni ng, I rem em ber
si t t i ng t here i n t he passage and a warder, t he sam e
guy t hi s guy wi t hout a bri dge, P uz am andl a, com es
and t el l s m e, “The church i s here. ” I sai d, “C hurch,
59
what church? ” He says, “t he Angl i can C hurch. You
see, i t was a pract i ce every S unday; ei t her t he
Met hodi st
or
t he
R om an
C at hol i cs
or
Dut ch
R eform ed or whoever, com es t here and hol d servi ces
i n t he sect i on.
S o he t ol d m e i t was t he An gl i can
C hurch and I sai d, “Angl i can C hurch? I di dn’t know
Angl i can C hurch com es here because I t hought onl y
t he Dut ch R eform ed C hurch com es here.”
I sai d,
I’m pl ayi ng on hi s Engl i sh background, you see.
He says, no, t he Angl i can C hurch com es t here, he
goes t o i t and bl ah bl ah bl ah.
I t el l hi m I’m an
Angl i can you know but I l eft m y Bi bl e i n t he
st oreroom . Okay, he says he’l l open t he st oreroom .
He t akes out hi s keys; opens t he st oreroom ; and I
pi ck
out
my
book:
The
C om pl et e
W orks
of
S hakespeare. I t ake i t out and show i t t o hi m t hen,
l ook t here’s t he Bi bl e by W i l l i am S hakespeare. S o
he l et m e have i t , so I t ook i t t o m y cel l and we
were cel ebrat i ng.
Now t hi s i s before ot her t hi ngs
happened, before t he pet i t i on, now we have got t hi s
book.
The probl em i s how do we hi de i t because
t here i s not hi ng i t ’s a bare room , you see, we di dn’t
even have cupboards, not hi ng.
And I don’t know
whet her you want t o see t he book I’ve brought i t
al ong.
DS :
It 's, i t 's fi ne. C an I see t he book. C an we pause?
S V:
S o what I di d was t hat , agai n provi dent i al l y, i t was
Deepaval i t i m e, and m y parent s sent m e greet i ng
cards.
These are your t ypi cal Deepaval i greet i ng
cards. S o I t ook t hose cards, cut t hem up and past ed
t he phot ographs on t hi s [ book] and we used porri dge
t o st i ck i t up.
It ’s t he way i t i s si nce I had i t on
R obben Isl and. And I openl y l eft t hi s on t he shel f,
60
not shel f but on t he wi ndow -si l l , ri ght behi nd m y
bed.
They woul d com e and ask m e "what ’s t hat ? "
And t hey woul d ask, "what 's t hi s? " And I sai d, "It ’s
m y Bi b l e." The one t hi ng of t he Afri kaner i s t hat ,
t here are t wo t hi ngs he’s scared of: hi s God and hi s
Bi bl e, and a l awyer.
l awyer.
had
They are very scared of a
S o I had t hi s, t hey di d not t ouch i t .
t hi s
wi t h
me
al l
t he
way
t hrough,
I’ve
and
event ual l y, oka y I’l l com e back t o t he pet i t i on.
Gave t he pet i t i on i n, [ t hey] t ook i t Monday m orni ng
at about four or fi ve i n m orni ng cl ang, cl ang, cl ang
open t he gat e, "Kader Hassi m and S unny rol l up
your t oi l et ri es and al l of t hat , out ."
They t ook us
out
i nt o
from
t here
t o ok
us
st rai ght
sol i t ary
confi nem ent . The pl aces where you serve your
Koel koet . Took us i n t here and l ocked us up. And
t ol d us t hat we are goi ng t o be hel d i n sol i t ary
confi nem ent on spare di et for an i ndefi ni t e peri od.
Now spare di et on R obben Isl a nd m eant t hat you
wi l l get [ onl y] t went y fi ve percent of your norm al
di et .
No ex erci se you are l ocked up t went y -t hree
and a hal f -hours a day. You wi l l onl y be l et out t o
em pt y your sl op -pai l and have a wash and get back
i nt o your cel l . Duri ng t he day t h ey t ook away your
bl anket s and your m at so you st ood on t hi s col d and
dam p fl oor al l t he t i m e, no pl ace t o si t . Ex cept , t he
onl y pl ace you coul d si t i s on your sl op -pai l , we
used t o cal l i t bal l i e, ri ght . W e sat on t he bal l i e al l
t he t i m e.
DS :
Di d t hey gi ve you t he reasons why t hey?
S V:
No, no reasons.
DS :
No reasons.
61
S V:
No reasons. They t hought t hat i t was Kader and I
t hat were t he i nst i gat ors and t hey j ust l ocked us up.
Agai n t he Gods were good wi t h us. I t hi nk you
know, i t was soon t hereaft er, aft er about fi ve weeks,
Navi
[ P i l l ay] cam e t o i nt ervi ew us because t hey
want ed t o go and appeal agai nst t he convi ct i on. S o
she cam e t o t ake i nst ruct i ons from us, but I t hi nk
Morgam and Navi cam e, and we were abl e t o t el l
t hem t hat we were hel d i n i sol at i on; i n sol i t ary
confi nem ent ; and bl ah, bl ah,bl ah, and i t was very
di ffi cul t t o convey al l of t hi s t o t hem . Because t here
were warders si t t i ng and l i st eni ng, and sat i n t hat
room where we were i nt ervi ewed. It was bugged but
we were abl e t o wri t e and do al l ki nds of t hi ngs and
t el l t hem .
And when t hey got back t o Durban t hey
brought an urgent appl i cat i on. My wi fe, Theresa,
and Ni na [ Hassi m ] brought an urgent appl i cat i on i n
t he S uprem e C ourt of C ape Town t o rel ease us from
sol i t ary confi nem ent and gi ve reasons and al l of
t hese t hi ngs , you see. Anyway, t hat set anot her
m ot i on,
where,
because
Navi
and
t hem
were
pract i si ng i n Nat al , t hey coul dn’t represent us i n
C ape Town s o t hey had t o get anot her set of l awyers
i n C ape Town t o i nt ervi ew us and t ake i nst ruct i ons.
S o we were get t i ng a l ot of cont act wi t h t he out si de
worl d
agai n,
and
of
course,
t hen
t he
pri son
aut hori t i es and t he Mi ni st er of J ust i ce, P ri sons and
J ust i ce, I t hi nk, opposed i t . And t hese peopl e were
very good t he set of l awyers t hat we had, R i chm ond
and som ebody.
Al t hough t hey di dn’t do very m any
pol i t i cal t ri al s, t hey were real l y professi onal and
good. And Dul l ah Om ar al so cam e t here t o i nt ervi ew
us.
And event ual l y, t hey forced t hem t o gi ve t hem
62
copi es of our pet i t i on, t he ori gi nal , not t o us - t hey
had t o m ake i t avai l abl e i n t he t ri al i t sel f.
S o t he
t ri al di d t ake pl ace; so t he j udge, cal l ed J ust i ce
Di em ont , who presi ded at t hat appl i cat i on heari ng,
and t hey had t o produce t he pet i t i on t hat we drew up
t hey had t o t hen t ry t o j ust i fy why t hey had t o p ut us
i nt o sol i t ary confi nem ent , whi ch t hey coul dn’t .
It
was i l l egal , because i n t erm s of t hei r own pri son
l aws, t hey weren’t supposed t o do t hat . They were
supposed t o have an adm i ni st rat i ve t ri al before t hey
coul d puni sh pri soners. You see t hat never ha ppened
on R obben Isl and, up unt i l t hen.
They woul d j ust
say t hree m eal s or l ock peopl e up for t hree m ont hs
or four m ont hs or som et i m es, l ashes, you see, t hat
was
t he
pract i ce.
Unt i l
we
dem anded
in
t hat
pet i t i on; we al so sai d we needed t o have a t ri al , we
needed t o have access t o l awyers before t hey can
fi nd us gui l t y of any i nfri ngem ent of pri son rul es.
And when t hat heari ng t ook pl ace t he j udge grant ed
us al l our request s. Ex cept he sai d, t hat som e of t he
t hi ngs t hat we cl ai m ed were ri ght s; he sai d t hey
were not real l y ri ght s, but t hey were pri vi l eges. But
he, i n our case, sai d he sees no reason why I want ed
t o st udy l aw; fi ni sh m y LLB; I had t hree courses or
som et hi ng t o do, and t hey sai d no.
DS :
You can’t .
S V:
Ya.
DS :
Okay.
S V:
S i m i l arl y, t here were o t hers, i f you have one degree
you can’t do anot her degree. That was t hei r l aw.
But t he j udge rul ed agai nst al l of t hat ; sai d no, we
m ust be al l owed t o st udy and t here m ust , you know he was good.
And he chast i sed t he C om m ander at
63
R obben Isl and for al l o f t hat . It was a t rem endous
vi ct ory,
i m m edi at e
rel ease
from
sol i t ary
confi nem ent . And t hey di dn’t t ake us back t o our
com rades i n E sect i on, t hey t ook us out of t he
sol i t ary confi nem ent and brought us i nt o t he si ngl e
cel l s. That i s where al l t he el i t e of R obben Isl and
were hel d. There were t hi rt y of t hem . S o we were
brought i nt o t he si ngl e cel l s.
DS :
C an you rem em ber t hei r nam es?
S V:
Ya. Al l of t he bi g nam es: Nel son, Kat hrada, Govan
Mbeki , W al t er S i sul u, Mac Maharaj , Bi l l y Nai r,
Lal l o C hi ba, R aym ond Nhl ab a, al l of t hem al l of t he
m ore popul arl y known R obben Isl anders. W e were
put i n wi t h t hem . It i s t he fi rst t i m e I m eet Nel son
Mandel a and al l of t hem . W e were pret t y awest ruck
about i t .
The fact t hat we are now goi ng t o spend
t he rest of out t i m e wi t h t h ese bi g guns, pol i t i cal
guns. But one t hi ng I m ust say about Nel son and al l
of t hese peopl e; t hey had t he ki nd of hum i l i t y t hat
was very, very surpri si ng, ex cept one or t wo of t he
younger ones were arrogant . But overal l , al l of t hem
t hey were very, very h um bl e and very warm and you
know t hey real l y t ook care of us i n t he begi nni ng,
wel com ed us, and put us t hrough t he ropes, and t he
cul t ure i n t he si ngl e cel l s was al so one of open
cam araderi e. Nobody t reat ed one above t he ot her,
even Mandel a was on t he sam e l evel as t he ot her
Um khont o youngst ers who cam e i nt o t hat sect i on.
That I found very good, nobody were t reat ed...
DS :
Unequal .
S V:
Ya, you know, t here was no deference t o anybody,
but t hat was real l y wonderful and good.
But agai n
we found t hat t he t reat m ent of pol i t i cal pri soners i n
64
t he si ngl e cel l s was t ot al l y di fferent from t he ki nd
of t reat m ent t hat we got i n t he E -sect i on. There, we
were t reat ed l i ke ani m al s; here, t he warders t reat ed
peopl e i n t he si ngl e cel l s wi t h a l ot of deference.
Fi rst t i m e we got ci garet t es, we got t obacco, and oh,
i t was real l i ke goi ng i nt o a cam p. But agai n, what
we
found
t here
was
t he
sam e
pat t ern
of
di fferent i at i on i n cl ot hes i n food.
DS :
Accordi ng t o race?
S V:
Ya, food accordi ng t o race - your di et was di fferent .
Afri c ans got porri dge i n t he m orni ng; no sugar; a
bi t
of
powdered
milk
no,
no
t hey
di dn’t
get
powdered m i l k j ust porri dge, pl ai n. Indi ans and
C ol oureds got t he sam e porri dge and a l i t t l e bi t of
powdered m i l k and a t abl espoon of sugar. For l unch
Indi ans got m ea l i e ri ce. Afri cans got you know
t hese whi t e m eal i es t hat you pl ant , j ust boi l ed, t hi s
hard brown m eal i es, t hey j ust boi l i t gi ve i t , not hi ng
el se wi t h i t . No l i qui ds; no veget abl es; not hi ng. For
supper t hey used t o Indi ans used t o get m eal i e ri ce,
and a s l i ce of bread, t hi ck brown bread and a l um p
of veget abl es and t he Afri cans, as wel l . No bread
for t he Afri cans, t he Afri cans get bread once a week
on a S at urday a sl i ce of bread, and a l um p of
veget abl es, t ast el ess t hi ng, but t he onl y t hi ng about
R obben Is l and food, i t was cl ean. If pum pki ns were
i n season, t he whol e pum pki n i s boi l ed - j ust grab a
l um p and t hrow i t i n t here.
know,
have
you
ever
Boi l ed bri nj al s - you
t ast ed
boi l ed
bri nj al s?
C arrot s, huge carrot s, t hat si z e, you had i t for t hree
m ont hs i n a row.
You passed carrot wat er.
No
seri ousl y, I’m not l yi ng. Beet root , t hey woul d gi ve
you. If you’re eat i ng beet root , you know eat i ng
65
beet root for a coupl e of m ont hs. They probabl y get
t hi s from t he pri son farm or som et hi ng, what ever i s
in
season
t hey
woul d
gi ve
you
t hat .
S o,
but
beaut i ful l y, i n t he si ngl e cel l s what t hey di d was
t here were about seven or ei ght non -Afri cans so we
used t o cut t he bread i nt o pi eces and rot at e.
MN: Okay can we pause?
R EC OR DING INTER R UP TED
ON R ES UMP TION
MN: W e are now r esum i ng our t al k wi t h P rofessor S unny.
P rofessor S unny, wel com e back.
S V:
Thank you.
MN: S i r, you were t al ki ng about l ast t i m e we paused,
when you were t al ki ng about t he l i fe i nsi de R obben
Isl and and you were t el l i ng us about t he bread
i nci dent . C an you pl ease recap on t hat ?
S V:
Yes I t hi nk what I was t ryi ng t o say t here t hat t he
pri son regul at i ons i n S out h Afri ca was absol ut el y
raci al . Even wi t h cl ot hi ng, di et , t he ki nd of m edi cal
t reat m ent you get , and al l of t hat .
S o but I t hi nk
when we got t o t he si ngl e cel l s we saw som e ki nd of
act i ve dem onst rat i on by t he pol i t i cal pri soners i n
si ngl e cel l s agai nst t hi s di et and cl ot hi ng t hi ng.
Because when I was i n t he Terrori st S ect i on I wore
m y hat , and di dn’t t hi nk t oo m uch about i t . But
when we got t o t he si ng l e cel l s t he guys sai d, "No,
we don’t wear t hese hat s we al l wear t hese cl ot h
caps. And we share everyt hi ng", and t hat ’s how t he
bread and al l of t hat com e i n. But I t hi nk what had
happened, al t hough t he t reat m ent i n t he si ngl e cel l s
was far bet t er beca use I t hi nk t he warder’s were
afrai d of t he seni or peopl e i n t he si ngl e cel l s.
There was pal pabl e evi dence of deference t hat t hey
66
showed t o peopl e i n t he si ngl e cel l s com pared t o t he
ki nd of t reat m ent t hat we had i n t he Terrori st
S ect i on. Because t here, t hey were rude, unci vi l ,
uncout h, and cruel t o us. But t he sam e warder’s i n
t he si ngl e cel l s t reat ed us l i ke - you know very
ci vi l l y and som e of t hem were very fri endl y and al l
of t hat .
But t hat was t he bi g dynam i c change
bet ween t he at t i t udes of pri son w arder’s t owards
pri soner’s i n ot her sect i ons t o at t i t ude of pri soner
warder’s t o pri soner’s i n t he si ngl e cel l s. S o we
found t hat qui t e am az i ng. And I t hi nk when we got
t here t o t he si ngl e cel l s t he m aj or spokesperson, or
t he onl y spokesperson for t he whol e pri son was
Nel son Mandel a. W hen vi si t ors cam e up t here or a
represent at i on had t o m ade, i t was Nel son Mandel a
who woul d go and m ake t hese represent at i ons on
behal f of al l pri soners.
And we al so found t hat
when we got t here t hat t hey had a pri son com m i t t ee
cal l ed ULUNDI and I t hi nk i t s si gni fi cant because
t hey chose ULUNDI because som ehow t hey had t hi s
i dea t hat ULUNDI i s goi ng t o l i berat e S out h Afri ca.
They had a l ot of fai t h and hope i n But hel ez i , you
see. You know, t hi s i s what I - t hey di dn’t say t hi s,
but t hi s i s what I’m m aki ng of i t . That t hey cal l ed
t hi s ULUNDI, and on t hi s ULUNDI t hey had one
represent at i ve
from
each
of
t he
pol i t i cal
organi sat i ons t hat were i n t he si ngl e cel l s. S o t here
was t he ANC , P AC , AP DUS A, t here was t he YC C
and t he Li beral P art y yes, and S W AP O. S o we had
si x peopl e si t t i ng on ULUNDI and up unt i l t hen, I
t hi nk,
each
of
represent at i ve.
underground,
t he
Thi s
secret ,
organi sat i ons
was
sent
supposed
pri son
to
in
be
organi sat i on.
t hei r
an
And
67
what ever ULUNDI deci ded or agreed up on was
event ual l y fi l t ered out t o rest of t he pri son. And
ULUNDI, i n ot her words, was a suprem e pri soner’s
organi sat i on. S o each organi sat i on woul d send i n a
represent at i ve on a yearl y basi s. S o you becam e
your organi sat i on’s represent at i ve.
Up unt i l t he n I
t hi nk Nel son was t he sel ect ed as a chai rperson of
ULUNDI. Aft er m y fi rst year I was el ect ed, not fi rst
year, second year I t hi nk, I was el ect ed chai rperson
of ULUNDI and Nel son was under m e so I al ways
brag about i t , t hat Nel son was under m e i n R obben
Isl and for t wo years, t wo consecut i ve years I was
chai rm an of ULUNDI. And t hen we began changi ng
t he dynam i cs about how we approach t he pri son
aut hori t y. No m ore, we went t here, you know,
Nel son doi ng t he bargai ni ng and t al ki ng, we went
t here
m aki ng
dem an ds.
Of
course,
we
heart ened by t he S uprem e C ourt 's deci si on.
were
W here
t hey agreed wi t h a l ot of our dem ands; l ot s of our
st at em ent s regardi ng what our ri ght s; and what our
pri vi l eges; and t hi ngs l i ke t hat . S o we gai ned a l ot
of – we fel t em powered by t hi s deci si on.
began doi ng a l ot of t hi ngs.
And we
For t he fi rst t hi ng, I
t hi nk what we di d t hat up unt i l t hen, we had t o wash
cl ot hes i n seawat er. And you can’t use soap i n
seawat er i t doesn’t soponi fy. S o we dem anded t hat
we want ed col d wat er Om o, we g ot i t . Then we sai d
we want t hem t o i nst al l a geyser, hot wat er, t o have
a shower.
W e got t hat , event ual l y.
W e t hen
dem anded t hat we want ed doors on t he t oi l et s. Up
unt i l t hen t oi l et s, t here were no doors on t oi l et s.
You sat , you know, i n general vi ew and t here were
l ot s of t hi ngs l i ke t hat we dem anded. W e dem anded
68
t hat we needed t o have out si de recreat i on, we
want ed t o pl ay foot bal l . P ri or t o t hat , t hey woul dn’t
al l ow us t o pl ay soccer because t hey woul dn’t t ake
us out of our si ngl e cel l s. W e were a bl e t o persuade
t hem t o bui l d a t enni s -set court t o st art wi t h.
We
st art ed t he t enni s -set court - t hat was a bi g debat e
i n t he si ngl e cel l s.
There was a l ot of opposi t i on.
Because what had happened pri or t o t hat , t here was
t hi s l i ke a quadrangl e i n t he cent re of t he si ngl e
cel l s. You m ay have seen pi ct ures of t hem , where
peopl e were breaki ng st ones and t hat used t o be l eft
open wi t h gravel . And everyday peopl e woul d cl ean
t hat , rol l t hat pul l wi re over i t t o freshen i t up. And
t hey di dn’t want t o gi ve up t hat space. Event ual l y,
I t hi nk, i t t ook us m ont hs of debat e, persuasi on, and
because ori gi nal l y we want ed t o bui l d a t enni s court
i n t here, but t hey refused, you know, t he m aj ori t y of
t he i nm at es.
S o we com prom i sed, we sai d we wi l l
have a t enni s -set co urt , and we bui l t t hat oursel ves.
I desi gned i t ; organi sed i t ; dug up t he st ones and
rocks. S o i f you go t o R obben Isl and, you see t hat
t enni s court , t he ori gi nal t enni s -set court , i s st i l l
t here. And t hen l at er on, we were abl e t o get t hem
t o agree t o b ui l d a ful l si z e t enni s court , and t hat
was anot her huge advance as far as si ngl e cel l s
peopl e were concerned, because at l east now we had
a physi cal sport .
MN: W hat year was t hat , sorry. In what year was t hat ?
S V:
S orry, som ewhere around 1975/ 1974, I don’ t know,
som ewhere around t here. But we di d t hat . W e were
abl e t o do t hat , and I t hi nk l at er on, when m em bers
of t he BC M cam e i nt o our sect i on we began t o
devel op even m ore robust l y, i n t erm s of pri son l i fe,
69
pri son act i vi t i es.
But I t hi nk a very curi ous t hi ng
happened t o us when t he BC M group, you know t he
1974 group, fi rst cam e i n. They put t hem i nt o a
sect i on opposi t e us i n t he si ngl e cel l s U - sect i on.
And we coul d see t hem , but now and t hen we coul d
hear t hem as wel l . But event ual l y, t hey sent us
m essa ges, you know, t o m e at l east , at t hat st age.
They appeared as a bunch of arrogant l i t t l e t wi t s,
you see. And t hey were arrogant , com pared. You
know, when we went t here, t he Nel son Mandel as
and al l t aught us t o be ul t ra -radi cal , ri ght ?
And
when t he S at hs’ and t he S t ri ni s’ and al l of t hese
guys cam e i n, t o m e, t hey appeared t o be way out of
sync wi t h what R obben Isl and i s, and how you
shoul d t hi nk pol i t i cal l y. W el l t hey cam e, you know,
t hese
were
t he
young
peopl e,
you
know,
new
generat i on of peopl e t hat S o ut h Afri ca i s t hrowi ng
up, and t hey sent us not es and m essages t o say t hat
t hei r rol e i s t o bri ng t oget her al l of t he pol i t i cal
m ovem ent s t oget her.
And Leni n and Trot sky and
Marx m ust be t hrown i nt o t he dust bi ns of hi st ory.
You know t hi s whol e bl ack cons ci ousness pol i t i cs
of i t , ri ght . W el l , we sai d okay you guys, com e and
we wi l l see what happens. But coi nci dent al l y, soon
t hereaft er, t here was i n 1976, upri si ng ri ght , and up
unt i l t hen t he creed on R obben Isl and was t hat i f I
cam e t o R obben Isl and and t hey knew t hat I was an
ABDUS AN t hey woul d al l t oget her wel com e, what
t he general sect i on or t he si ngl e cel l s col l ect i vel y,
t hey woul d wel com e you and t el l you what t he, not
t he rul es, but what our l i fest yl e i s t here. And how
we shoul d go about doi ng t hi ngs, but t hen t hey wi l l
hand you over t o your organi sat i on and t el l you
70
st rai ght t hat you are under t hei r di sci pl i ne t ot al l y.
S o i t was great i t worked ri ght up unt i l 1977/ 78. I
t hi nk, begi nni ng of 1978 i t worked wel l . But , at t he
sam e t i m e, unt i l t hen t he pri son popul at i on on
R obben Isl and was droppi ng I t hi nk i t dropped t o
cl ose t o a 1000 or som et hi ng.
And t he bal ances i n
t erm s of m ovem ent s t he P AC had m ore peopl e i n
pri son on R obben Isl and at t hat st age, t han t he
ANC . It was a com pl et e change i n dynam i cs and
bal ances of forces.
S o when t hese young peopl e,
t he 1976 peopl e cam e i n, l ook m ost of t he 1976
peopl e,
I’m
not
sayi ng
al l ,
were
pol i t i cal l y
unt rai ned peopl e. You know, i t was a spont aneous
revol ut i on.
A
l ot
of
t hem
were
j ust
ordi nary
byst anders an d got pi cked up and t hey got m i ni m um
fi ve years sent ence.
I m et a l ot of t hese fel l ows
t hey were 11, 12 -year -ol d ki ds. They sai d t hey
di dn’t know what was goi ng on. They woul d wat ch
som eone st oni ng a bus and t hey were grabbed and
charged
for
a pol i t i cal
o ffence and l anded on
R obben Isl and, m i ni m um fi ve years t hey got , ri ght .
S o when t hey got t here - but t he poi nt i s t hat we al l
knew t hat t hese were part of t he BC M group. You
know, because t he BC M was t he one t hat was
responsi bl e for t he 1976 t hi ng. Ei t her di rect l y or
i ndi rect l y because I t hi nk t hey gave t he l eadershi p
t o i t , ri ght .
R EC OR DING INTER R UP TED
ON R ES UMP TION
MN: W el com e back. P rofessor you were t al ki ng about t he
- you m ent i oned t he com i ng of t he BC M and t hei r
radi cal i sm , but you were al so t ouchi ng on t he J une
16t h upri si ngs. In your opi ni on, or your opi ni on of
71
t he i nm at es at R obben Isl and, who were i ni t i at es or
how was t he 1976 upri si ngs percei ved?
S V:
W el l l ook, al l of us on R obben Isl and were not
aware t hat 1976 t ook pl ace. And we were not aw are
of t he event s l eadi ng up t o 1976 and t hereaft er. The
onl y t i m e we knew about i t a bi t about i t was when
t he BC , t he 1974 group cam e i n, t he FR ELIMO
group, we cal l ed t hem .
W hen t hey cam e i n, we
began heari ng about t hi s, and t o us, and I t hi nk t hi s
was accept ed i n t he si ngl e cel l s, nobody chal l enged
t he not i on or underst andi ng t hat 1976 was a resul t
of t he act i vi t i es of t he BC M. That peopl e i nvol ved
i n 1976 upri si ng were young peopl e; were BC M
ori ent at ed peopl e; and t he ANC , P AC and none of
t he ot her Mo vem ent s had any i nfl uence or anyt hi ng
t o do wi t h 1976. I t hi nk nobody chal l enged t hat .
But t he com posi t i on of t he peopl e t hat cam e on t he
Isl and was a di fferent t hi ng now, because probabl y
95 percent of peopl e t he 1976 peopl e who cam e ont o
t he Isl and di dn ’t know about t he BC M, ei t her. And
as I sai d i t was a spont aneous revol ut i on. These
were young ki ds, j ust pi cked up, and t hey l anded
t here. But i n t erm s of t he P rot ocol of previ ous years
one woul d have put t hem wi t h t he BC M. But t he sad
t hi ng happened. For t he fi rst t i m e, I t hi nk, when t he
BC M peopl e or t he 1976’s cam e ont o t he Isl and,
t hat P rot ocol wasn’t fol l owed. As soon as t hose
young peopl e l anded on t he Isl and, bot h t he P AC
and ANC began openl y recrui t i ng t he youngst ers.
P oachi ng,
recrui t i ng,
grabbi n g
t hem ,
som et i m es
physi cal l y bri bi ng t hem t o j oi n t hei r Movem ent s.
And t hese young peopl e di dn’t know what t he hel l i s
goi ng on. Thi s wasn’t i n t he si ngl e cel l s but i n t he
72
general sect i on. Unt i l event ual l y, t hi ngs becam e so
rough, t hat t he pri son aut hori t i es began t o separat e
groups t he ANC , P AC and al l of t hat . And i n earl y
1978 i t becam e so rough t hat for t he fi rst t i m e
physi cal
vi ol ence
broke
out
on
R obben
Isl and
bet ween pri soners. S t abbi ngs, t hey act ual l y st abbed
t he Offi cer C om m andi ng of R obben Isl and, at t hat
t i m e, C apt ai n Hardi ng or som et hi ng. You know i t
never happened previ ousl y, and so t hat was t hat .
But
when duri ng t hat peri od t hey brought t he
FR ELIMO group i nt o t he si ngl e cel l s, t hat ’s when
we m et Aubrey Mokoape and al l t hat group, S t ri ni
an d S at hs and I forget al l t he ot her peopl e. And t hey
cam e, and i t was great for us because for t he fi rst
t i m e even i n t he si ngl e cel l s, t he bal ance of forces
no l onger were t he ANC . The m aj ori t y i n t he si ngl e
cel l s, i t was P AC ; AP DUS A; t he Nevi l l e Al ex ande r
Group; and t he BC M group were now on t he t op. S o
I t hi nk we m ade a bi g i m pressi on i n t hat sense, t hat
our
val ues,
our
phi l osophi es
began
to
em erge,
because I t hi nk, organi cal l y, t he four of us got
t oget her. The onl y peopl e t hat were on one si de
were t he re, was onl y one S W AP O guy, i n t he si ngl e
cel l s, one Li beral P art y person, and t he rest were
ANC . S o for t he fi rst t i m e we found al l of t he ot hers
not gangi ng, but organi cal l y get t i ng t oget her, we
began t o agree on a num ber of t hi ngs as a group.
And t ensi ons were begi nni ng t o em erge because t he
ANC saw a gangi ng -up as i t were agai nst t hem . But
I t hi nk we pl ayed i t qui t e wel l wi t hout t he i nt ent i on
of gangi ng-up or t aki ng si des or anyt hi ng l i ke t hat .
And began organi si ng event s i n t he si ngl e cel l s.
You
kn ow
we
had
pl ay-act i ng;
pl ay-readi ng;
73
organi sed m aj or sport s event s at t he end of t he year.
And t he readi ng of news, we m ade i t general ,
because up unt i l t hen i t was ei t her t he ANC or t he
P AC peopl e who had t he cont act s wi t h t he general
sect i on, who woul d m onopol i se readi ng. I st i l l
rem em ber S t ri ni Moodl ey used t o be our radi o
announcer. R adi o Makem a t hey used t o cal l i t . And
he used t o m ake radi o announcem ent s, readi ng out
news, whi l st t he warders were asl eep and so t here
was a l ot of cl oseness, I t hi nk, was begi nni ng t o
devel op. But at t he sam e t i m e I t hi nk, t he ol d guard
began t o fear what t he young peopl e were t hi nki ng
and doi ng, and t he so -cal l ed arrogance of t he young
peopl e.
And but I t hi nk, very qui ckl y t hi s at t i t ude
of t he FR ELIMO group t hat we got t o t hrow away
t he Leni n and t he Trot sky’s i nt o t he dust heaps of
hi st ory. They changed very qui ckl y. And I t hi nk
t hey al so began t o recogni se t hat t hey j ust can’t
bri ng t he di fferent Movem ent s t oget her wi t hout
havi ng an i deol ogi cal base on whi ch you ca n bri ng
t hem t o. I t hi nk t hat was one of t he m aj or probl em s
of t he BC M t hey di dn’t have a fi rm i deol ogi cal base
for
t hem sel ves
ex cept
t al ki ng
about
Bl ack
C onsci ousness. Bl ack C onsci ousness where, i s i t
wi t hi n t he S oci al i st cam p or Nat i onal i st cam p or
wher e or even i n t he S oci al i st cam p. Is i t S t al i ni st
or so -cal l ed Trot sky’s, or where are you?
But I
t hi nk for t he fi rst t i m e t he FR ELIMO group m et
wi t h peopl e t hat t hey coul dn’t chal l enge very wel l .
You know t he m ast ers as i t were, because l ook, t hat
group of peopl e di d not m eet a pol i t i cal l y devel oped
l eadershi p i n S out h Afri ca. There was t hi s huge
vacuum up unt i l t hat t i m e. And t hey were deni ed
74
t hat pri vi l ege and opport uni t y t o m eet and chal l enge
i deas.
It ’s no weakness of t hei rs, i t 's i n a sense a
faul t of t he ol d l eadershi p t hat t here wasn’t a
second l ayer t o t ake over, you know. They were
doi ng i t on an ad -hoc basi s, and al l of t hat . But I
t hi nk, sl owl y t hey began t o real i se and underst and
t he deep i deol ogi cal ri ft s bet ween t he di fferent
pol i t i cal Move m ent s. And i n t hat sense, I t hi nk,
peopl e l i ke Nevi l l e Al ex ander and t he AP DUS A
peopl e
and
P AC
was
i deol ogi cal l y,
represent ed on t he Isl and.
rel at i vel y weak.
weakl y -
Thei r l eadershi p was
It i s no faul t agai n of t hei rs,
because t hei r l eadershi p was di sper sed al l over t he
count ry and t hat refl ect ed i t sel f even am ongst t he
ex i l es i n Afri ca. There was l ot s of i n -fi ght i ng
am ongst t hem sel ves and so t hat al so refl ect ed on
R obben Isl and.
S o t here was t hat vacuum wi t h
t hem , and I t hi nk sl owl y t he FR ELIMO peopl e b egan
to
devel op
an
i dent i t y,
i dent i fyi ng
wi t h
i nt el l ect ual l y, at l east , wi t hout agreei ng on any
st rat egi c pl ans about how Movem ent s ought t o
funct i on. But I t hi nk, i nt el l ect ual l y t hey began t o
chal l enge and t o i nt eract wi t h ot her peopl e, whi ch
was good. A nd I t hi nk i t hel ped t hem a l ot . And i t
hel ped us t o underst and how young peopl e were
t hi nki ng. And t o sort of shi ft gear as i t were, and
for us AP DUS A, i t was good because we fel t t hat we
are bei ng wei ghed down by t he ol d guard t hat was
on R obben Isl and. You know, we coul dn’t rock t he
boat very m uch - we had t o be very careful because
you are l i vi ng wi t h t hese peopl e 24 -hours a day and
one of t he t hi ngs t hat - I speak for m ysel f, I deci ded
on R obben Isl and I’m not goi ng t o have pol i t i cal
75
fi ght s wi t h anyo ne. I’m goi ng t o argue, I’l l debat e
and do al l t hat , but you know t he ki nd of pol i t i cal
fi ght s t hat you have out si de where you swear one
anot her and t hat ki nd of pol i t i cal act i vi t i es, I
deci ded I’m not goi ng t o do, and i n a sense i t hel ped
m e. I was very sensi t i ve t o ot her peopl es’ pol i t i cal
vi ews, i deas, I woul dn’t want t o i nsul t t hei r vi ews
you
know.
The
ANC
peopl e
al ways
t hought
Mahat m a Gandhi was a great guy, whi ch I di dn’t
t hi nk. But I woul dn’t i nsul t Mahat m a Gandhi i n
t hei r presence, you know, t hat ki nd of sensi t i vi t y. I
suddenl y devel oped on R obben Isl and, before t hat I
was t erri bl y i nsensi t i ve and rude about m any t hi ngs.
But I t hi nk i t has hel ped m e a l ot , t hat i t t em pered
m e when I went t o t he Isl and. And i n t he end by t he
t i m e I got out I t hi nk , I di dn’t m ake any bad fri ends
in
t he
si ngl e
cel l s
and
I
l i ved
com fort abl y,
em ot i onal l y wi t h t hem . S o i n t hat sense i t has
hel ped m e. S o where do I go from t here? The ot her
bi g t hi ng used t o happen on t he Isl and i s t hat once a
year t he Int ernat i onal R ed C ross used t o vi si t
R obben Isl and and i nt ervi ew us ei t her i ndi vi dual l y,
or t he chai rm an of ULUNDI woul d l ead a whol e l i st
of probl em s t hat we have.
And t he IC R C was a
source of great news for us because t hese guys, t hey
sort of surrept i t i ousl y used t o pas s on news about
what ’s happeni ng not onl y i n S out h Afri ca, but t he
rest
of
t he
worl d.
And
t hey
in
t urn
woul d
event ual l y go t o t el l t he Mi ni st er of J ust i ce what we
fel t and how we di d t hi ngs and what we t hought of
what was goi ng on.
They al so hel ped i n br i ngi ng
about m i nor changes for us on t he Isl and i n t erm s of
pri vi l eges, perhaps.
W hen t hey were t her, t hey
76
woul d organi se bet t er coffee for us. You know t he
coffee on R obben Isl and was m ade out of burnt
m eal i es, burnt whi t e m eal i es. They woul d crush i t
an d m ake coffee and gi ve i t t o you. You woul dn’t
t ast e anyt hi ng m ore bi t t er t han t hat . S o t hat , and I
t hi nk, when we got t o t he si ngl e cel l s we began t o
deal wi t h t he qual i t y of food. Because I t hi nk I t ol d
you t hat t hey woul d gi ve you a whol e pum pki n, a
break a chunk and t hrow i t i nt o your pl at e. That was
how veget abl es were served.
And t he soup was
bi t t er because i t was m ade out of, boi l ed i n brak
wat er. S o event ual l y, we got t he pri son aut hori t i es
t o agree wi t h t he assi st ance of t he R ed C ross t o
al l ow t hem , t hey used t o get onl y t he com m on l aw
pri soners t o do t he food preparat i on on R obben
Isl and. And what we di d was, we sai d we woul d
want t o be i nvol ved i n t he preparat i on of food. S o
get peopl e from t he general sect i on t o work i n t he
ki t chen, t ake out t he com m on l aw pri soners, because
what t hey were doi ng t he com m on l aw pri soners i s
t hat t here were rat i ons.
You know t hey woul d say
20 gram s or 150 gram s of m eat or fi sh or what ever,
i t i s supposed t o be al l ocat ed for each pri soner. W e
barel y sm el t t hat s t uff, i f we cam e across m eat - a
bi t of fat or bones. S o we rai sed t hi s as condi t i ons
becam e m ore appropri at e t hrough ULUNDI; t hrough
t he R ed C ross peopl e; and we agreed event ual l y t hat
t hey woul d em pl oy ki t chen st aff from t he general
sect i on. They woul d d o t he cooki ng and t hey woul d
t hen cook food i n t ap wat er, I m ean fresh wat er
from t he m ai nl and - bussi ng or bri ngi ng t ankers of
wat er for cooki ng. And l i fe becam e so di fferent and
som e of t he peopl e t here m ay have been Indi ans, I
77
don’t know, even got t hem t o gi ve t hem m asal as, so
t he fi sh t hey woul d fry i n m asal a once a week. And
t he si z ed -pi eces becam e so m uch bi gger, and t he
qual i t y becam e bet t er, because for t he fi rst t i m e you
got
pri soners,
t hem sel ves.
pol i t i cal
pri soners,
cooki ng
for
S o t hat when t h e chi cken was served
you got a fai rl y decent pi ece of chi cken.
Nobody
was
probl em
st eal i ng
anym ore.
That
was
t he
previ ousl y t he com m on l aw pri soners were st eal i ng
probabl y t hree -quart ers of t he food and sel l i ng
am ongst t hei r own com m on l aw pri soners. And t hat
is
a
com m on
pract i ce
in
t hroughout S out h Afri ca.
com m on l aw pri sons
You read about i t i n t he
J al i C om m i s si on and al l of t hat .
S o t hat was t he
ot her t hi ng I t hi nk was a great achi evem ent .
MN: You have spoken about t he physi cal recrui t m ent of
1976 st udent s or t hose who cam e i n duri ng t hat
peri od.
Di d t hat i m pact on you i n any way i n t he
m ut ual respect am ong t he pol i t i cal organi sat i ons
i nsi de di d i t creat e any...?
S V:
Oh yes i t was at a t i m e when I was j ust about
l eavi ng R obben Isl and.
I rem em ber I c am e back
here I had t o t al k t o t he ANC peopl e here about i t .
Because what was begi nni ng t o happen, was t hat
t here was t hi s physi cal vi ol ence bet ween ANC ,
P AC , som e of t he BC M peopl e and som e of t he
young peopl e resi st ed bei ng drawn ei t her t o t he P AC
or BC , whi chever, you know.
That ’s t he i dea of
bei ng
ot herwi se
coerced
physi cal l y
or
Movem ent , was not accept abl e t o t hem .
i nt o
a
But what
had happened as a resul t t he rel at i onshi ps bet ween
t he di fferent Movem ent s i n t he general sect i on,
becam e absol ut el y t en se. And i t becam e physi cal as
78
wel l bet ween t hem .
Because t hat ’s where t he
recrui t m ent and al l t hat was t aki ng pl ace.
In t he
si ngl e cel l s we t ook up t he posi t i on t hat we coul d
revert back t o t he ol d P rot ocol ki nd of t hi ng, where
we woul d wel com e everybod y. But I t hi nk a l ot of
t he organi sat i ons i n t he si ngl e cel l s real l y pai d l i p
servi ce t o i t . They sai d one t hi ng but t hey got t hei r
own peopl e i n t he general sect i on t o recrui t . The
P AC , ANC were doi ng i t openl y because t here were
AP DUS AN’S
in
t he
genera l
sect i on
who
com m uni cat ed wi t h us and t ol d us t hi s i s what was
goi ng on. They t ri ed t o m edi at e, but i t becam e t oo
physi cal and t hey deci ded t hey are goi ng t o keep
away from t hi s confl i ct .
And t hat was i t , and of
course t he aut hori t i es st epped i n and m ade use of i t
t o di vi de t hi s wedge.
S o m uch so t hat , j ust before
I’d l eft , t hey or I t hi nk t here was si x m ont hs or a
year before I l eft t here was t hi s huge conspi racy t o
have Nel son Mandel a rel eased i nt o t he Transkei .
The Mant anz i m as woul d t ake care of hi m b ecause by
t hen Transkei got i t ’s i ndependence. S o t here was
l ot s of negot i at i ons goi ng on.
George Mant anz i m a
vi si t ed R obben Isl and a coupl e of t i m es and i t was
becom i ng a bi t uncom fort abl e. I t hi nk Nel son - l ook
I m ay be t erri bl y wrong, doi ng hi m a l ot of
i nj ust i ce.
But he was t hi nki ng about t he i dea -
l ook, peopl e bei ng i n pri son for 20 -odd years want
t o t ast e freedom , ri ght ? A l i t t l e bi t of i t , what ever
shape or form .
And I t hi nk at t hat st age, Nel son
was bi t i ng at t he i dea, not t ot al l y accept i ng.
Bu t
when i t fi l t ered out t o us: t he P AC , BC and
AP DUS A t o an ex t ent began dem andi ng a di scussi on
of t hi s, and t hen t he general sect i on t he ANC peopl e
79
were al so drawn i nt o i t . For t he fi rst t i m e, we were
abl e t o get represent at i ves from t he general sect i on
t o m eet wi t h us i n t he si ngl e cel l s - fi rst t i m e on
R obben Isl and. W here t hi s was di scussed and i t was
agreed
t hat
Nel son
Mant anz i m a al one.
won’t
m eet
wi t h
George
It woul d be W al t er S i sul u,
Nel son Mandel a and Govan Mbeki .
Three wi l l do.
But t hat creat ed a bi g - t hey went back and report ed
t hi s t o t he general sect i on t here, t he young peopl e i n
t he ANC m ai nl y, i n t he general sect i on al m ost
revol t ed. And t hey put a st op t o i t . S o t hat m eet i ng
di dn’t t ake pl ace: t hat i dea of bei ng rel eased i nt o
t he cust ody of t he Mant anz i m as. Mant anz i m a was
Nel son Mandel a’s uncl e, you see.
If you see t hem
and l ook at t hem , physi cal l y t here i s a l ot of
resem bl ance bet ween t hem . S o t hat was put pai d t o
and t hat ’s about i t real l y on t he Isl and.
MN: S o t he m eet i ng di dn’t t ake pl ace?
S V:
That di dn’t t ake pl ace. And I t hi nk t he person who
was t erri bl y, t erri bl y rel i eved was Govan Mbeki .
Because he was opposed t o t he i dea because he’s t he
l eft wi t hi n i n t he ANC you see, and because we
ragged hi m a l ot about i t . ‘Ya, you're goi ng at m eet
a Bant ust an Leader.’ You see, Govan Mbeki and t he
l eft -wi ng i n t he ANC , were cl ose, m uch cl oser t o us
al t hough t hey were S t al i ni st s, but we were st i l l on
t he l eft of t he Nat i onal i st group. S o we had fun at
t hat t i m e. And I t hi nk about four o r fi ve m ont hs
before
I
l eft
I
got
t hi s
com pl et e
works
of
S hakespeare, whi ch I sent around and asked each
one of t hem t o choose a l i ne or a paragraph t hat
t hey can, or want t o i dent i fy wi t h. And i t t ook about
al m ost t wo m ont hs for i t t o m ake i t s rounds.
An d
80
everybody
chose
a
l i ne
or
a
paragraph
and
aut ographed i t for m e.
MN: W as i t onl y on si ngl e cel l s onl y?
S V:
Onl y si ngl e cel l s I di dn’t have access t o t he general .
MN: S o everybody's si gnat ure...?
S V:
Everybody si gned, ya, you know. I have got a whol e
l i st of peopl e t hat si gned. You know Kader Hassi m ,
Bi l l y Nai r, W al t er S i sul u, S eake, Mobs S i kana, J B
Busani , Govan Mbeki , W i l t on Mkwai t hat ’s t he guy
som ebody sai d l ost hi s eye.
You know I m et hi m
about four m ont hs ago, hi s eye i s t erri bl y i nt act .
Mac Ma haraj , J oe Kabe, Bengu, Kat hrada, Nel son
Mandel a, Andrew Masondo, Lal oo C hi ba, Andrew
Ml ageni , Eddi e Dani el s, Mi chael Di ngakaki s, S at hs
C ooper, S t ri ni Moodl ey, Frank Ant hony, J ust i ce
Mpunz a,
who
di ed
t hree
weeks
ago.
Essop,
Moham ed Essop, Nevi l l e Al ex ande r, C hol o, Mhl aba,
al l of t hese peopl e chose di fferent l i nes. I can show
you
som e
of
t he
l i nes
t hat
t hey
chose.
Any
part i cul ar l i ne, aut ograph t hat you woul d l i ke t o
see?
MN: Govan Mbeki .
S V:
He chose passage i n Twel ft h Ni ght page 349 l et m e
show i t t o you. Ya, t hi s i s Govan Mbeki . Decem ber
1977, he si gned t hi s and he t ol d m e t hat he al ways
quot ed t hi s passage:
"If m usi c be t he food of l ove pl ay on,
Gi ve m e ex cess of i t ..." bl ah, bl ah, bl ah.
That was hi s favouri t e passage because I asked hi m
t o m ark i t he sai d no t hat whol e passage i s hi s
favouri t e, okay, who el se?
MN: And Nel son?
81
S V:
Nel son - J ul i us C aesar page 980.
Nel son chose
l i nes
from J ul i us C aesar. He aut ographed t hi s on t he 16t h
Decem ber 1977. And t he l i nes he chose were
C aesar’s word s:
"C owards di e m any t i m es before t hei r deat hs,
The val i ant never t ast e of deat h but once,
For al l t he wonders t hat I have yet heard,
It seem s t o be m ore st rai n t hat m en shoul d
fear,
S eei ng t hat deat h a necessary end wi l l com e
when i t wi l l com e."
Okay.
MN: And l ast l y can - [ i nt errupt i on]
S V:
Okay, Kat hrada I t hi nk i s cl ose by here. Oh, Andrew
Masondo, t hi s guy's a bri gadi er i n t he arm y now.
He chose a passage agai n from J ul i us C aesar t hi s i s
from Ant hony and t he passage he chose was:
"Oh pardon m e t hou bl eedi ng pi ece of eart h
t hat I am m eek and gent l e wi t h t hese but chers,
Thou art t he rui ns of t he nobl est m an t hat ever
l i ved i n t he t i de of t i m es; W oe t o t he end t hat
shed t hi s cost l y bl ood, Over t hy wounds now
do I prophesy whi ch l i ke d um b m ont hs do
hope t here wi l l be l i ps t o beg t he voi ce and
ut t erance of m y t ongue."
But , you know, l ooki ng at t hi s passage I t hi nk i t 's
wel l chosen by Andrew Masondo because he was
i nvol ved i n t hat Quat t ro cam p, and here he i s
t al ki ng about a si m i l ar t h i ng.
Thi s i s t he way t he
m an was t hi nki ng. And Ant hony was now goi ng t o
seek revenge over C aesar’s m urderers, and t hat ’s
hi m .
82
MN: You have al so spoken about t he com m i t t ee, t he
ULUNDI com m i t t ee, and when t he BC M guys cam e
i n, you sai d t hey were m ore, you v i ewed t hem t o be
radi cal .
Di d t hey t ake, di d t hey j oi n t hi s ULUNDI
com m i t t ee or di d t hey have any reservat i ons?
S V:
W el l l ook, t hey woul d have j oi ned but I had l eft by
t hen.
MN: Oh you had l eft by t hen?
S V:
I l eft i n 1978. And I l eft when I was st i l l cha i rm an
of ULUNDI. Aft er I l eft t hey woul d have el ect ed
som ebody el se.
MN: But t he di fferent t reat m ent of di fferent races was i t
st i l l pract i sed?
S V:
Oh yes, i n t heory yes.
di fferent i at i on.
But we di dn’t accept t he
You know, we st i l l cont i nued wi t h
t he bre ad -breaki ng; and shari ng of t he m i l k; and t he
sugar; and t he cl ot hes; and al l of t hat . But I t hi nk
one of t he ot her si gni fi cant breakt hroughs t hat we
m ade, was t hat for t he fi rst t i m e we were al l owed,
j ust a year before I l eft , t hat t hey al l owed, t hey
sup pl i ed us wi t h underwear, ri ght , and short s, box er
short s. And al l owed us t o buy art i cl es of cl ot hi ng,
ost ensi bl y for sport i ng event s.
MN: W as t hat across t he board?
S V:
Li ke t enni s shi rt s and short s and t enni s shoes and
al l of t hat ki nd of t hi ng. W hi ch t hey never di d
previ ousl y but you know t hese are t he i ncrem ent al
gai ns t hat we m ade on R obben i sl and.
But I t hi nk
for m e, personal l y, t he bi ggest gai n t hat I m ade was
up unt i l t hen, and up unt i l t he t i m e t hat I had l eft ,
peopl e who l eft t he si ngl e cel l s b efore m e, [ t he
aut hori t i es]
t hey woul d cal l
t hem
a coupl e of
m ont hs, perhaps a coupl e of weeks, perhaps, you
83
don’t know when t hey are goi ng t o t ake you away
from R obben Isl and. They woul d say, Vi no, t hey
want you i n t he offi ce. S o you go, you don’t know
what i t i s t hat t hey are cal l i ng you t o t he front
offi ce and open t he bi g gat e cl ang, cl ang. And
nobody worri ed, because peopl e were bei ng cal l ed
oft en for al l ki nds of t hi ngs.
And you woul d go
onl y for you not t o see your com rades or say
anyt hi ng t o t hem . That woul d be t he l ast t i m e you
woul d have known t hat he was gone, you see. And
t hat ’s how t hey di d i t . They j ust cal l ed you and.
MN: No farewel l s?
S V:
No farewel l s, not hi ng. And t hen t hey woul d send
som ebody t o go and pi ck up al l your bel ongi ngs;
person al bel ongi ngs; and pack you up; and off you
went . You know; t hey woul d send you t o Leeukop or
som ewhere and spend your t i m e t here and before
you were act ual l y rel eased. And t hen t hey woul d
send you t o t he nearest pri son t o where you l i ved,
you know, your h om et own. If you l i ved i n t he
Transkei , t hey woul d send you probabl y t o East
London and from t here rel ease you t o t he Transkei .
S o what I di d was t hat I, when I was chai rm an of
ULUNDI,
I
chal l enged
not
onl y
t he
Offi cer
C om m andi ng on R obben Isl and, but t he overal l
Nat i onal P ri sons person, Bri gadi er Aucam p. He was
t he bi g guy who was i n charge of onl y pol i t i cal
pri soners. And he was a real pi g of a hum an bei ng.
He was your count erpart t o - what ’s t hi s guy i n
S peci al Branch, not S t eenkam p t he rooi neck, I
forget anyway. Thi s guy was j ust t he repl i ca of t hat
guy. And he was brut al , cruel , and I was cal l ed one
si de and we knew t hat he was on t he Isl and. And as
84
chai rm an of ULUNDI I request ed a m eet i ng wi t h
hi m and t he Offi cer C om m andi ng, and I sai d t hat –
l ook , I wasn’t aggressi ve, and I t al ked wi t h t hem
l i ke an el der, you see. I t el l t hem l ook ,you know, I
fi nd t hi s pract i ce of j ust snat chi ng peopl e away
from t he sect i ons and t hen t hey di sappear, we don’t
say anyt hi ng.
It doesn’t l eave a good t ast e, we
begi n t o hat e t he pri sons depart m ent for t he way
t hey t reat us i n t hat respect .
I sai d:
"what ’s t he
probl em wi t h t el l i ng us t hat , okay you are goi ng t o
l eave R obben Isl and on X dat e.
Gi ve us a few
m om ent s t o at l east say goodbye t o our com rades.
You know, w e spent m any, m any years t oget her."
Oh, Aucam p says: "no i f we do t hat ..." t hen t he
reason why he sai d: "we don’t t el l you i n advance i s
t hat you wi l l now st art t aki ng down m essages for
t he peopl e out si de."
I t el l hi m "
"Bri gadi er, you
know we are not t h at st upi d. P eopl e know t hat I am
goi ng t o be di scharged on t he 6t h of Apri l . P eopl e
have al ready gi ven m e t hei r m essages one year ago,
and I’ve got i t i n t here.
S o i t 's st upi d, because i f
you are goi ng t o t el l m e i n an hour’s t i m e or t hi rt y
m i nut es t i m e t hat I am goi ng t o be t aken away from
R obben Isl and, can you i m agi ne t hi rt y peopl e or
fort y peopl e queui ng up t o gi ve m e m essages, you
t hi nk t hat ’s pract i cabl e? " I t al ked t o t hem i n t hat
st rai n, you see.
They kept qui et t hey shook t hei r
heads and t ol d m e t o go.
But when I was t aken
away from R obben Isl and, t hey gave m e t wo hours.
The Offi cer C om m ander cam e down t o see m e i n t he
m orni ng, as soon as t he cel l s opened and sai d:
"S unny, you are goi ng t o be t aken away from t he
Isl and t oday. You need t o say your farewel l s t o al l
85
your com rades." But i t was so - you know, hum ane
way t o say l eave R obben Isl and. I fel t good, i t was
sad because you know have t o go t hrough t he pai n
of sayi ng goodbye. But i t was good but by t he t i m e
Kader and t wo years l at er when Kade r and t hem l eft
R obben Isl and t hey were abl e, t hey al l owed t hem t o
go t he general sect i on and say goodbye t o t he
com rades t here. S o what ever t he gai ns we m ade, we
m ade
i ncrem ent al l y,
responsi bl e
for
t hi s,
but
you
I
feel
know,
t hi s
personal l y
personal
farew el l t o your com rades on t he Isl and. You know,
i t was som et hi ng t hat I needed t o t el l you.
MN: P rofessor, can you t el l us about t he veget abl e
garden?
S V:
Oh t hat ’s anot her st ory. Ya I t hi nk I need t o t al k
about t hat and...
MN: C an we pause?
E ND O F T APE - FURT H E R RE CO RDING on 14 Au gu st
2002
86
UNIVE RS IT Y O F DURB AN -WE S T VIL L E
DO CUME NT AT IO N CE NT RE
O RAL H IS T O RY PRO JE CT
“VO ICE S O F RE S IS T ANCE ”
INTER VIEW EE :
S VENKATR UTHNAM
INTER VIEW ER :
M NTS ODI
DATE :
14 AUGUS T 2002
P LAC E :
DUR BAN W ES TVILLE
------------------------------------------------------MN: W el com e back. P rofessor S unny, wel com e back you
were j ust t el l i ng us about t he veget abl e garden.
S V:
Oh ya t here i s a l i t t l e st ory behi nd t he veget abl e
garden and how we cam e about est abl i s hi ng one on
t he Isl and.
Because up unt i l t hen, t here wasn’t a
si ngl e shrub i n t he sect i on t hat we were hel d i n.
And pri or t o t hat what was happeni ng on t he Isl and
was t hat t he onl y peopl e t hat were offered any ki nd
of rel i gi ous servi ces were t he m ai nst rea m C hri st i an
church.
You
know
t he
Dut ch
R eform ed,
t he
Angl i can, t he Met hodi st , and t hose ki nd of peopl e.
W hen we got t here, we t hought , no we are goi ng t o
be sm art about t hi s and dem and t hat we want t o
have
a
Hi ndu
pri est
com i ng
to
at t end
to
our
rel i gi ous n eeds. The i dea bei ng, l ook I’m bei ng
qui t e frank here about i t , we hoped t hat i f t hey send
us a Indi an pri est we wi l l be abl e t o t al k t o hi m i n
t he vernacul ar and ex t ract news of what ’s happeni ng
out si de. S o event ual l y t hey agreed t hat we can have
a Hi ndu pri est com i ng t o us, but t he probl em was t o
i dent i fy a Hi ndu pri est .
S o we got hol d of Trees,
and t hat was m y wi fe, t o l ook around t o fi nd i f t here
are any Hi ndu pri est s who are abl e t o com e over and
87
t al k t o us.
And she found one guy, I t hi nk he was
‘Di vi ne Li fe’ or ‘R am akri shna’, I don’t know. I
know hi s nam e was Mr Govender.
A fai rl y el derl y
m an, and he agreed t o com e over once a m ont h and
t hrough hi m we al so got hi m t o organi se Deepaval i
parcel s for us. You know, sweet m eat s, and nut s, and
al l t hat ki nd of, you know, al l t he t radi t i onal di shes
t hey have for Deepaval i , onl y for t he peopl e t hat
at t end hi s servi ces.
S o suddenl y we found t hat -
t here were onl y fi ve Indi ans i n si ngl e cel l s
-
suddenl y we had about t hi rt y peopl e who were now
fol l owi ng Hi ndui sm very, very - i ncl udi ng Nel son,
and m any ot hers Toi vo [ Ya Toi vo - S W AP O] and
Eddi e Dani el s and everybody el se.
And we ended
up col l ect i ng som et hi ng l i ke t hi rt y parcel s per year,
t here was Vi no and Trees and everybody out here
used t o buy t he st uff, pack i t up i nt o packet s, and
shi p i t down t o C ape Town, and t hi s ol d m an woul d
bri ng i t t o us. It was great . You know, we shared i t
equal l y al t hough we di dn’t have enough each, a
packet for each person, but we count ed t he nut s and
sev and everyt hi ng shared v ery, very equal l y.
And
duri ng t hat t i m e I t hi nk t he fi rst vi si t t hat he [ Mr
Govender, t he pri est ] m ade t o R obben Isl and - he
was a Tam i l i an you see, and t he onl y Tam i l i an i n
our sect i on at t hat t i m e was Bi l l y Nai r, so we t ol d
Bi l l y, "Bi l l y you bet t er t al k t o t hi s guy i n Tam i l .
You know, whi l st you are prayi ng t ry and ask hi m
what i s goi ng on and t hen we wi l l know."
So it
went on, went on so Bi l l y was sayi ng som et hi ng and
aft er t he servi ce was over we sai d Bi l l y, we al l
gat hered around Bi l l y "what di d he s ay, what di d he
say? "
Bi l l y was bul l shi t t i ng us [ l aughs] because
88
Bi l l y had forgot t en hi s Tam i l and di dn’t approach
t hi s ol d m an for news, you see. Unt i l one day aft er
m any vi si t s I t hi nk we got hi m , and I knew t hat
peopl e
com i ng
to
t he
Isl and
usual l y
car ry
a
newspaper, and t hey cam e on a S unday. S o qui et l y I
t hi nk I t ook hi m away t o m y cel l t o show hi m
som et hi ng phot ographs of t he chi l dren, and ot her
guys cam e and carri ed hi s bag.
He used t o com e
wi t h a bri efcase, t hey wal ked i nt o t he di ni ngroom
opened hi s bag st ol e t he newspaper. S o we di d som e
t erri bl e t hi ngs.
But t hat ol d m an di dn’t com pl ai n.
He kept qui et about i t and i t was duri ng one of t hese
vi si t s t hat we t ol d hi m "Look Mr Govender, pl ease
bri ng us som e dri ed chi l l i es.
we wan t ed i t .
I sai d,
S o he asked us why
“W e want t o pl ant chi l l i es",
so he brought us t hree dri ed chi l l i es. And wi t h t hat
we st art ed a chi l l i e garden. W e got perm i ssi on t o do
i t from t he Offi cer C om m andi ng.
By t hen, t here
was al m ost , we coul d get al m ost anyt hi ng wi t hi n
reason , you know what I m ean, and t hey woul d gi ve
it
to
us.
Because
we
began
devel opi ng
a
rel at i onshi p and provi ng t o t hem t hat t hi s woul d be
useful for your adm i ni st rat i on because you are goi ng
t o have a m ore cont ent ed pri son popul at i on and t hey
bought t hat i d ea. And sl owl y al so, I t hi nk, t he t ype
of pri son offi ci al s we got aft er t he i nt erdi ct were
di fferent . They were sendi ng peopl e who were m ore
i nt el l i gent peopl e, who were t hi nki ng t ype of pri son
offi ci al .
Not l i ke t he ol d guys we used t o cal l t he
Bongol os and al l of t hat , who were j ust st upi d, raw
i di ot s. But t hi s t ype of peopl e were m ore am enabl e
t o di scussi on, you know, wi t hi n reason t hey woul d
agree t o a l ot of t hi ngs. I know, at one st age, t hey
89
even al l owed m e t o buy a cl ock.
Because I was
st udyi ng I was doi ng B.C om Account i ng and som e
of m y ex erci ses I had, I had t o do i n a cert ai n t i m e
you know, t en m i nut es or t went y m i nut es and I sai d
"l ook how do I do t hi s?
I don’t have a cl ock" and
cl ocks were banned on R obben Isl and. And I was
abl e t o get a c l ock and t hen subsequent l y Kader got
one, and t hen Bi l l y got one we had t hree cl ocks,
event ual l y ,i n t he cel l s so t hat was great .
And I
t hi nk sl owl y we got a garden goi ng, and t he probl em
i s t hat R obben Isl and i s j ust pl ai n whi t e sea sand.
W hen we went o ut t o t he l i m e quarry, we had t o
pi ck up t he droppi ngs, dry droppi ngs of ost ri ches.
P i ck t hat up, t ry and col l ect com post from under t he
t rees nearby, carry i t i n our pocket s and sl owl y we
changed t he t ex t ure of t hat sea sand and grew
chi l l i es.
And I had never seen chi l l i es grow and
fl ouri sh t he way t hey di d. It was C hi ba, Kader and I
were t he peopl e t hat were i n charge of t he garden.
Event ual l y,
Nel son
j oi ned
and
us
ot her
when
we
veget abl es
st art ed
pl ant i ng
t om at oes
in
t he
garden.
And we had so m uch c hi l l i es, you know,
t hose appl e box es - we used t o pi ck about t hree
appl e box es ful l per week. And we used t o suppl y i t
t o t he general sect i on and everywhere.
Tom at oes
we used t o, event ual l y pl ant ed and we pl ant ed t hem
and ex peri m ent ed doi ng t hi s l ong st e m t om at oes.
W e had t i m e on our hands, and we had al l t hi s
ost ri ch m uck t hat we col l ect ed and t hey real l y
fl ouri shed and i t was great .
I rem em ber once
l ooki ng at t hese t om at oes, you know, we woul d
i nspect every l eaf and al l of t hat . W e found a sm al l ,
what do you cal l i t , cham el eon.
W e saw t hi s
90
cham el eon, used t o vi si t i t every m orni ng, and t hen
suddenl y aft er a m ont h or so we found about t hi rt y
l i t t l e cham el eons t hat si z e.
And t he guys used t o
act ual l y cat ch fl i es, ki l l fl i es and com e and feed t he
cham el eons. It was wonderful you know, how cl ose
we got t o nat ure and t hat ki nd of t hi ng. Ya, I t hi nk
t hat bei ng i n t he si ngl e cel l s real l y brought peopl e
very, very m uch t oget her. It was across pol i t i cal
l i nes you know. W e al l had t he sam e uni form s, sam e
cl ot he s i f I showed i t t o you, you woul dn’t know t he
one from t he ot her. But when peopl e hung t hei r
cl ot hes on t he l i ne t o dry, we were abl e t o say
whose pant s t hose were, whose shi rt s t hey were.
There were no i dent i fi cat i on j ust by t he form t hat
t he pant s t ook we were abl e t o say t hi s bel ongs t o
Nel son,
t hat
bel ongs
to
Nevi l l e
or
what ever.
S i m i l arl y wi t h our eat i ng di shes t hey were al l
al um i ni um Di x i e’s, ri ght , no m arki ngs on t hem , but
when we were servi ng our food, we were abl e t o say
t hi s bel ongs t o A B or C . I don’t know how, but i t
happened. But t hat ’s how cl ose one get s when you
are i n pri son t oget her for a l ong t i m e. And I recal l
you know, I t hi nk everybody aft er t hey cam e out of
a vi si t everybody were down, i t depressed you. And
peopl e knew t hat you we re depressed, and t hey
woul d ral l y around you, t al k t o you and hang around
you for a whi l e and l i ft your spi ri t s wi t hout bei ng
i nvi t ed, wi t hout bei ng ordered, you know, i t wasn’t
even cont ri ved. S o t hose are som e of t he beaut i ful
t hi ngs I rem em ber of abou t t he com rades on t he
Isl and, t hat ’s across pol i t i cal l i nes.
MN: How m any vi si t s were you al l owed?
S V:
S orry?
91
MN: How m any vi si t s were you al l owed?
S V:
You were al l owed what , I t hi nk one vi si t a m ont h - I
can’t rem em ber.
But m y wi fe was here i n Durban
s he wasn’t even abl e t o - not abl e t o ya, afford t o
vi si t m e t wi ce a year, ya. It was very ex pensi ve and
t o t ravel al l t he way, i t was
-you had t o fl y down.
And I t hi nk Trees di d wel l she used set up som e
ki nd of a pri son ki nd of com m i t t ee i n Durban, used
t o cal l i t Moni es for t he P ri soners, especi al l y t he
Transkei ns.
C ol l ect food for t hem ; col l ect cl ot hes
for t he fam i l i es; and rai se m oney for t he fam i l i es t o
vi si t t he peopl e on t he Isl and.
And onl y t hen we
began t o underst and t hat t he peopl e t hat we wer e
t ryi ng t o t each t o read and wri t e on st one, by t he
t i m e we l eft t he pri son t hey were abl e t o send out
l et t ers t o t hei r fam i l i es.
And I coul d i m agi ne t he
j oy and t hi ngs t hat t he fam i l i es m ust have had
seei ng a l et t er wri t t en by peopl e who were t ot al l y
i l l i t erat e, i n t erm s of Engl i sh, at l east .
And t hey
were wri t i ng l et t ers and t hey were wri t i ng l et t ers
now i n Xhosa, not i n Engl i sh t hey were t aught ,
event ual l y, i n t he general sect i on t o wri t e i n Xhosa.
And ol d m en 70/ 80 -year - ol d m en, now wri t i ng
l et t ers for t he fi rst t i m e, cl ear l et t ers apparent l y. I
di dn’t see t hem but t hey were great , t hat was super.
MN: The cont act wasn’t al l owed was i t ?
I m ean duri ng
t he vi si t - t he cont act ?
S V:
No cont act vi si t duri ng vi si t i ng t i m es. You know,
t he gl ass pi geonhol e and t here was a t el ephone on
your si de, t el ephone on t he vi si t or’s si de, t here were
t wo t el ephones on t he vi si t or’s si de. One, t he what
do you cal l t he guy? t he pri son warder, ri ght and i f
92
you were t al ki ng som et hi ng out of t urn, you were
onl y al l owed t o speak i n Engl i sh or Zul u or Xhosa.
In m y case i t woul d have been Engl i sh. W e coul dn’t
speak any of t he vernacul ar l anguages. If he heard
you say anyt hi ng about what ’s happeni ng i n pri son
he woul d j ust cut you off and cancel t he vi si t .
I
t hi nk once Tre es t ook out a di ary and was wri t i ng
down
som et hi ng,
t hey
grabbed
t he
di ary
and
t hreat ened t o l ock her up, and al l of t hat . But t hose
were sm al l dram as, but ot herwi se you got used t o
t he i dea of t al ki ng t o som ebody you can see, you
know t hi s di st ance. You know t al ki ng t hrough a
t el ephone i t was t erri bl e.
S o I t hi nk t hat and t he
t hi ng t hat real l y depressed you when t he vi si t was
over i t was onl y a t hi rt y m i nut e vi si t , you know,
t hat ’s i t .
MN: C an we go back a bi t t hat i s one t hi ng t hat you once
m ent i oned t h at t he percept i on t hat your parent s had
of Afri can peopl e were m ore em phasi sed - I m ean
t hey had t hi s negat i ve t hi ng and t hey were m ore i n
when you were bet rayed duri ng your t ri al i t was
m ore i nst i l l ed i n t hem , di d t hat feel i ng pass t hrough
t o your I m ean your i m m edi at e fam i l y, t hat i s your
wi fe?
S V:
No I don’t t hi nk so because m y wi fe and m y
chi l dren - I don’t t hi nk were raci st at al l .
And i n
any event I t hi nk aft er we were arrest ed, t he
securi t y pol i ce m ade sure t hat a l ot of peopl e t hat
were cl ose t o u s as fri ends, m y rel at i ves di dn’t
com e anywhere near m e. Even when I was out of
pri son you know. Before I went t o pri son I di dn’t
have a cl ose rel at i onshi p wi t h m y fam i l y.
My
brot hers and si st ers woul d pop i n once i n si x
93
m ont hs or som et hi ng but i t was nev er a cl ose
rel at i onshi p t hat was a rel at i ve t ot al l y no. But aft er
we were arrest ed, I t hi nk t he securi t y pol i ce, and
t hi s i s what di sappoi nt ed m e a l ot , i s t hat a l ot of
m y fri ends, cl ose fri ends, who were vi si t i ng fri ends,
you know, once a week t wi ce a we ek, go t wi ce a
m ont h ki nd of vi si t ors, st opped com i ng t o vi si t
Trees. And t hat real l y m ade i t very l onel y, l eft out .
There were a handful of peopl e l i ke Navi and Gaby
and t he Vi no’s and [ t here were] peopl e t hat real l y
were t erri bl y, t erri bl y afrai d t o be even associ at ed
wi t h anybody t hat was recogni sed as a pol i t i cal
person.
And i t becam e real l y di ffi cul t and I t hi nk
t hi s i s where I need t o m ent i on t hat when I was on
t he Isl and I al so not i ced a percept i bl e change
t owards
pri son
aut hori t i es
t owards
m e.
But
I
coul dn’t qui t e work out why. At one st age I was
worri ed whet her t hey were not t ryi ng t o buy m e off
or anyt hi ng l i ke t hat .
But I had t o rul e i t out
because t hey woul dn’t t ake t hose chances. But l at er
on I t hi nk I need t o t el l you, I’l l com e up wi t h t ha t
t hi ng l at er. That event ual l y I l eave R obben Isl and
and si x weeks before m y rel ease dat e t hey dri ve m e
up t o Leeukop P ri son, t he sam e pl ace where we
st art ed off agai n, put m e i nt o a si ngl e cel l for si x
weeks al one, but no harassm ent . The food was j ust
as bad, and al l t hose condi t i ons were bad. And
fort unat el y i t was warm er t hi s t i m e i t was Apri l .
And so i t wasn’t freez i ng wat ers so I t hi nk about
four days before dat e of rel ease, I was dri ven down
by a l i eut enant t hey gave m e ci vvi e cl ot hes. And I
wasn’t
handcuffed
t hi s
t i m e.
I
sat
wi t h
t hi s
l i eut enant som ebody, I don’t know, drove down
94
from P ret ori a down t o Durban. On t he way I t hi nk,
we st opped som ewhere i n Greyt own or som ewhere
and t hey saw m e i n ci vi l i ans and wal ki ng wi t h t hi s
guy and a l ot of warder s t here, bl ack warders, i n t he
adm i n depart m ent t hey saw m e t hey sal ut ed m e t hey
t hought I was a bi g pri son offi ci al . They event ual l y
brought m e coffee; m i l k coffee; cup and saucer;
sugar separat e; oh, oh I drank i t . Then t hey real i sed
t hat no m an t hi s gu y i s j ust a bl oody pri soner, a
bandi et .
[ l aughs] But t hei r at t i t ude changed so
qui ckl y, t hey gave m e fi l t hy l ooks aft er t hat . But
anyway I had m y coffee and you know i t was t he
fi rst t i m e I had decent coffee, wi t h m i l k and sugar
and al l of t hat . And we dr ove down t o Durban
C ent ral , put i nt o a cel l . It was great . Now you can
shower even i n col d wat er i n Durban. And I coul d
see out si de from m y pri son cel l I coul d see BP
C ent re t hat bi g si gn, and aft er t hree days I was
rel eased. I was sent cl ot hes from hom e, dressed l i ke
a ci vi l i an.
But before I st epped out of pri son, t he
securi t y pol i ce cam e i n and served m e wi t h fi ve
years banni ng and house arrest orders. S o t hat when
I arri ved hom e I wasn’t abl e t o recei ve al l t he
peopl e t hat were wai t i ng t o recei ve m e, b ecause t hat
woul d have been an i nfri ngem ent of t he banni ng
orders. S o t he onl y peopl e t hat I was abl e t o si t and
have l unch wi t h t hat day was m y m um and dad and
Trees and m y chi l dren. And t here were l ot s of
peopl e out si de, st andi ng. I shoul d have brought
pi ct ures of t hat , but I've got i t - you can have t hem
I’l l show i t t o you, newspaper phot ographs, of al l of
t hat .
95
MN: W hat do t hi nk was t he i dea was t he reason behi nd
t he i dea of not rel easi ng you di rect but havi ng t o
spend som e t i m e i n Leeukop?
Even t h ough i t was
t he procedure but what do you t hi nk was t he reason?
S V:
I don’t know. Look, ni net y percent of t he t hi ngs t hat
t he pri son adm i ni st rat i on di d di dn’t m ake sense.
I
t hi nk i t was som e of t hi s Aucam p's sense of, you
know, t o puni sh you because i t wa s pai nful t o be
separat ed from your com rades t hat you spent m any
years wi t h. And t hen put i nt o si x weeks of i sol at i on,
and t hen t he anx i et y of com i ng back hom e you
needed t o have com pany around i t .
I woul d have
fel t so m uch ni cer i f t hey t ook m e st rai ght from
C ape
Town
and
drove m e back t o Durban or
som et hi ng l i ke t hat . It was a very pai nful si x weeks
because you had not hi ng t o do, you are si t t i ng i n
your cel l , and no sm okes, not hi ng t here you see.
And I di dn’t even have t hi s book wi t h m e because
al l m y personal bel ongi ngs t hey put i n a bag and
st ored i t away.
And so I had not hi ng t o do, j ust
t wi ddl e m y t oes t he whol e day. It was a l ong, l ong
si x weeks. There was nobody t o t al k wi t h, not hi ng.
MN: Di d t he fam i l y ex pect you, di d t hey now you were
bei ng re l eased?
S V:
Yes. One t hi ng you are cert ai n of when you are
convi ct ed as a pol i t i cal pri soner i s t hat i f i t i s t en
years, you knew on x dat e you are com i ng out , t o
t he dat e, t here i s no rem i ssi on, not hi ng. They wi l l
rel ease you on t hat dat e, fi ni shed. S o t here was t hat
cert ai nt y about bei ng a pri soner, unl i ke bei ng i n
det ent i on, you see t hat ’s t he di fference. Okay, I
t hi nk I need t o t al k t o you about m y feel i ngs and
t hi ngs when I l anded hom e. You know, I l eft hom e
96
when m y daught er was what ? about ei ght year s ol d
or som et hi ng l i ke t hat and we were very cl ose. And
I com e back hom e, I t hi nk, t he bi ggest shock,
surpri se, I don’t know what you want t o cal l i t was
m eet i ng m y son for t he fi rst t i m e - he was ni ne
years ol d. And he j ust di dn’t underst and t hi s t hi ng
about fat her and al l of t hat you know. He di dn’t
grow up wi t h a fat her i n t he house i t was j ust Trees
and t he t hree ki ds. And of course, t here was an ol d
l ady t hat worked for us at t hat t i m e, Mrs Govender,
who act ed as a grandm ot her t o t hem . S he was a
great source of support for t he chi l dren. S o I had a
l ong l unch wi t h m y m ot her and dad and t hen t hey
had t o l eave and t hen I saw m y l ounge ful l of
greet i ng cards you know, st rung across.
Oh, t he
ot her bi g surpri se for m e was t hat when I was
brought back I wa s brought back t o a di fferent
hom e. W hen I was arrest ed, I was arrest ed i n m y
hom e i n Im pal a Dri ve, whi ch I had sol d duri ng, j ust
about t he t i m e t hat I was arrest ed.
And t hi s new
hom e Trees bui l t aft er I was i n pri son, so I com e t o
t hi s new hom e; new fam i l y; because everybody i s
new ex cept Trees; even t he chi l dren were di fferent .
They were grownup and al l of t hat . S o t here was
l ot s of ex ci t em ent , l ot s of newness t o m e com i ng
out . And t hen I not i ced t hese greet i ng cards. I kept
qui et about i t , t hen l at e i n t he eveni ng t al ki ng wi t h
Trees, wi t h a l ot of envy and j eal ousy I asked her
who were t hese cards from , because you know we
were not greet i ng card peopl e.
recei ved
four
greet i ng
Deepaval i i t was great .
cards
You know i f we
for
C hri st m as
or
And we were n ot i n t he
habi t of sendi ng out t hese t hi ngs, so where di d al l
97
t hese fri ends com e from ? Then Trees began rel at i ng
t o m e about Am nest y Int ernat i onal .
S he says al l
t hese cards are from overseas, t hey are from t he
di fferent chapt ers of Am nest y Int ernat i onal w ho
sent greet i ng wel com e cards and al l of t hat because
t hey knew t he dat e of m y rel ease and al l of t hat .
Look, I heard about Am nest y Int ernat i onal i n a very
vague sense before I went t o pri son, and I t hi nk I
knew t hat Am nest y Int ernat i onal was a proscri bed
organi sat i on and t hat ’s i t . That i s as m uch as I knew
about Am nest y Int ernat i onal . But t hen Trees t el l s
me
t hat
soon
aft er
my
arrest
and
convi ct i on,
Am nest y Int ernat i onal adopt ed m e as a pri soner of
consci ence.
And t hey sent out t housands of l et t ers
t o t he Offi cer C om m andi ng dem andi ng m y rel ease,
enqui ri ng about m y wel fare and m y heal t h, and al l
of t hat , and t hese are t he peopl e she t ol d m e t hat
sent t hese greet i ng cards. But m ore i m port ant l y for
her, and for m e I t hi nk t hat t hey were a source of
i m m ense support duri ng m y absence.
Because as I
sai d earl i er, t hat m ost of m y fri ends and everybody,
not out of choi ce, but because of t he harassm ent
from t he securi t y pol i ce kept away from Trees and
she was t erri bl y, t erri bl y i sol at ed. And Am nest y
Int ernat i onal gave her t hat reason t o survi ve and
ex i st and she di d a l ot of t hi ngs t hrough t hem . They
sent I t hi nk cl ot hi ng and al l ki nds of t hi ngs, so ya,
so Am nest y Int ernat i onal i s great i n t hat sense. But
I t hi nk I am grat eful t o t hem for havi ng saved m y
fam i l y for m e whi l st I was away, t hat ’s how I l ook
at i t . S o t hat when I event ual l y got t o t he [ Uni t ed]
S t at es I was abl e t o repay a bi t of t hat , but i t ’s a
l ong way from where we are.
98
MN: S o now, when you got out , you got t hi s fi ve -year
ban and how was - [ i nt er rupt i on]
S V: And house arrest .
MN: and house arrest . How di d you go t hrough? Di d you
serve i t al l or was i t l i ft ed?
S V:
I served m y ful l fi ve years. I served fi ve years house
arrest , banni ng order before I went t o pri son. S o i n
ot her words wi t h m e, I s pent 22 -years i n vi rt ual
i m pri sonm ent .
MN: You were rel eased i n 1978?
S V:
1979.
MN: 1979. S o you served - l ess fi ve years, so when t he
ei ght i es st art ed you were i dl e i n t he house, or were
you?
S V:
W hen? Aft er I cam e back from pri son?
W el l l ook
t he probl em wi t h t he house arrest was t hat , you
know, I t hi nk t he sam e syst em before I went i nt o
pri son, I wasn’t abl e t o recei ve vi si t ors. But I t hi nk
t he bi ggest and t he m ost onerous t hi ng, was t hat you
coul dn’t
wasn’t
l eave
your
al l owe d
to
m agi st eri al
even
wi t hi n
di st ri ct ,
t he
and
I
m agi st eri al
di st ri ct t o ent er i nt o any group area ot her t han
whi t e, t hat was cruel . S o what t he hel l am I goi ng
t o do i n a whi t e group area? You know, I coul dn’t
go t o Indi an Group areas; Afri can; C ol oured; even i f
i t was wi t hi n t he m agi st eri al di st ri ct .
And I
coul dn’t l eave Mobeni Hei ght s and Mobeni Hei ght s
i s a sm al l t ownshi p about 300 hom es, 2 shops i n
t here,
t hat ’s
about
al l .
And
if
you
want ed
em pl oym ent you had t o get out of Mobeni Hei ght s,
whi ch I coul dn’t .
Unt i l event ual l y I was abl e t o
t ravel i nt o cent ral Durban but not al l owed t o cross
i nt o t he Indi an group area, but Trees offi ce’s used
99
t o be i n Al bert S t reet . I was abl e t o wal k up t o t he
cent re l i ne but not cross over.
It was ri di cul ous,
but t hat went on for a whi l e unt i l Navi P i l l ay
appl i ed t o have m e em pl oyed as a cl erk i n her
offi ce, and t hey grant ed m e t hat . S o I was al l owed
t o go and work i n t hei r offi ces i n Al bert S t reet , but
nowhere el se. I wal ked ri ght across Al bert S t reet
i nt o t he whi t e area and back hom e and t h ey were
very st ri ct t hey woul dn’t rel ent on t he hours because
I had t o be i ndoors by si x . In t hose days I used t o
use a bus. And t he bus used t o t ake an i nt erm i nabl e
t i m e.
You know i f you fi ni shed offi ce at fi ve
o’cl ock, t here was a probl em get t i ng hom e by si x
because i t was peak peri od.
They woul dn’t budge
off t hat . They sai d, "No, you st i ck by your rul es."
And i t becam e pai nful for m e - t he second fi ve
years, because here I have t wo young ki ds t hat
before m y ret urn hom e, Trees, over t he weekend,
was abl e t o t ake t hem t o t he beach t o t he park and
al l of t hese pl aces. But when I cam e back i t m eant
t hat Trees won’t l eave m e al one at hom e and whi ch
m eant t hat t hey, t oo, sort of becam e house arrest ed
wi t h m e. And I t hi nk one of t he ki ds especi al l y, t he
s econd chi l d, R avel , began t o devel op som e ki nd of
a resent m ent t owards m e. For t wo reasons I t hi nk
(a) he was an out door guy - he want ed t o go
vi si t i ng; he want ed t o go pl ay bal l i n t he st reet ; and
ri de a bi cycl e; and do al l ki nds of t hi ngs whi ch I
coul dn’ t
j oi n
t hem
i n,
you
see.
And
m ore
i m port ant l y, I t hi nk when I was away he shared t he
bedroom wi t h Trees, shared t he bed wi t h Trees, so
when I ret urned hom e, he had t o gi ve up hi s
Mum m y’s si de, you see. But I began t o sense som e
100
ki nd of react i on from hi m because of t hat , and i t
t ook hi m m any years for hi m t o get over t hat . And
yet Nol an, on t he ot her hand, t he youngest one t hat I
m et for t he fi rst t i m e, I rem em ber t he nex t m orni ng
aft er I got up from bed I was i n t he bat hroom ,
shavi ng, he runs up t o hi s m o t her and says "m um m y,
m um m y, t hat m an i s cut t i ng hi s face." I coul d have
cri ed. W hen you know, when your chi l d refers t o
you as "t hat m an" because t hey di dn’t underst and
t he concept i dea of fat her. But as t he m ont hs and
years began t o grow, Nol an woul d no t l eave m e, he
was st i cki ng t o m e l i ke a t i ck, al ways hangi ng over
m e. You know som et i m es I used t o push hi m away,
"P l ease Nol an, l eave m e al one, m an." But up unt i l
now Nol an used t o st i ck wi t h m e l i ke a t i ck. A
funny react i on from di fferent peopl e and t hat was i t .
S o I was wi t h Navi P i l l ay and C om pany for som e
years, and I di d a l ot of corporat e work, I di d a l ot
of work for Mobi l , at t hat t i m e. You know, doi ng
l ease agreem ent s for t hem for t hei r garages and al l
of t hat . And t hen t here was one pet rol st a t i on i n
Isi pi ngo Beach t hat t hey were t ryi ng t o fl og for
som e years, and nobody was prepared t o t ake i t .
And so Mobi l asked m e, "S ee i f you can fi nd a
buyer for t hi s t hi ng, m an." S o one day I broke
banni ng orders, drove i nt o Isi pi ngo Beach - i t was
an Ind i an group area. I l ooked at t hi s t hi ng. It was
a rundown ki nd of gas st at i on, but ri ght across t he
gas st at i on were pl ayi ng fi el ds and wi t hi n a hundred
yards, was t he beach. And above t he gas st at i on
t here was a t hree -bedroom fl at , so I gave i t a l ot of
t hought and I sai d, “Okay, l et m e t hi nk about t hi s
and see whet her I can’t t ake over t hi s gas st at i on.”
101
Tal ked t o Trees, she agreed but we needed t o put up
capi t al , you know,t o buy t he gas and al l of t hat . S o
we sol d our hom e for a song i n Mobeni Hei ght s and
i nvest ed t hat m oney i n t he gas st at i on.
It was a
very poor gas st at i on i n t he sense t hat I t hi nk t hey
were sel l i ng som et hi ng l i ke 60 000 l i t res a m ont h,
whi ch i s not hi ng.
But t he prospect s of m e havi ng
t he ki ds pl ayi ng i n t he fi el d across m e, I can s ee
t hem , t hey can ri de bi cycl es t here, so i t was i deal .
S o we t ook over t he gas st at i on. The fi rst year i t
was great ; peopl e knew m e; i t was t he t i m e of
t ri cam eral parl i am ent . And i t was j ust about t i m e
when m y banni ng orders ex pi red i n 1984 and I
becam e pol i t i cal l y act i ve agai n, every car t hat cam e
i n t here sai d "don’t vot e" st uck on. And busi ness
i m proved t hree, fourfol d, we were sel l i ng som et hi ng
l i ke 250 000 l i t res a m ont h now because t he peopl e
i n Isi pi ngo beach real l y gave m e support , and t he
workers i n P rospect on, because t hey knew m e now,
you see. And i t was great , and I woul d have l oved
bei ng a pet rol at t endant for t he rest of m y l i fe, you
know, you are i n t he forecourt ; t al ki ng t o peopl e;
i nt eract i ng wi t h t hem . I fel t i t was great . But when
t he t ri cam eral t hi ng cam e i n, I becam e act i ve,
post ers al l over t he gas st at i on, Mobi l st epped i n,
t hey di dn’t l i ke t hi s. They gave m e one m ont h’s
not i ce t o get out . It was onl y t hen t hat I underst ood
t hat t he General Manager of Mobi l i n Durban was
part of t he S out h Afri can Arm y. They used t o go
i nt o Nam i bi a on shoot i ng ex pedi t i ons every m ont h.
Not shoot i ng ani m al s, shoot i ng S W AP O peopl e. And
t hose are t he t ype of peopl e t hat I had t o deal wi t h.
Gave m e one m ont h t o get out . By t hen I had
102
i nvest ed so m uch of m y m oney i n t here, I coul dn’t
recover any of i t . R eal l y I t hi nk I i nvest ed about 60
000. 60 000 i n 1982 was a l ot of rands. But I t hi nk
I onl y recovered about 6/ R 7 000, when I had t o
cl ose i t up. That 's al l I coul d recover because al l t he
fi x t ures, fi t t i n gs, and you know al l of t hat , I j ust
l ost out . And I di d up m y apart m ent on t op you
know, ful l y carpet ed and bui l t i n cupboards, and al l
of t hat . Anyway, I was down i n t he dum ps bot h
spi ri t ual l y and econom i cal l y, and I st i l l rem em ber
m y ki ds aski ng, "you k now dad we don’t have a
hom e t o l i ve i n, anym ore." I coul d have ki l l ed
m ysel f t hat day. But anyway I rent ed out anot her
house i n Isi pi ngo Hi l l s. W e m oved i n t here and
agai n, provi dent i al l y, I was offered a fel l owshi p at
C ol um bi a Uni versi t y. And t hey cam e d own and
spoke t o m e and, oh no, I t hi nk, before I sol d t he
garage when I cl osed up t he garage and I was
unbanned, I t hen vi si t ed t he Uni t ed S t at es. Navi was
t here and J ohn S am uel s was t here, t hey i nvi t ed m e
over. I st ayed t here for about four of fi ve m ont h s
and m et a l ot of peopl e at C ol um bi a Uni versi t y and
al l ki nds of peopl e and i t was t he hei ght of t he ant i S out h Afri can cam pai gn, you know, di si nvest m ent
cam pai gn. S o act i vi t y was very, very hi gh at t hat
t i m e. I t hi nk i t was l argel y as a resul t t hat ’s wh en
we m et Tom Karri s and al l of t hese peopl e. And
when I got hom e t hey di dn’t want m e t o com e back
hom e t hey sai d, "you m ust st ay here" t hey wi l l get
m e t hi s and I sai d: "I don’t know. I l eft m y fam i l y
behi nd t here. I have a dut y t o t hem ." S o I cam e back
s ai d goodbye t o Am eri ca and got back I t hi nk wi t hi n
t wo weeks, no t hree weeks, som ebody from t he
103
S t at es
cam e
schol arshi p
down
at
and
t ol d
C ol um bi a
me
about
Uni versi t y.
I
t hi s
sai d
schol arshi p, you know i t ’s ages si nce I've st udi ed
form al l y
at
a
uni versi t y,
al t hough
I
had
j ust
com pl et ed m y B.C om on R obben Isl and and al l of
t hat . Anyway I sai d: "I agree provi di ng you get
schol arshi ps for m y t wo chi l dren." By t hen m y
daught er was m arri ed so I had a responsi bi l i t y t o m y
t wo sons. They were i n st andard seven and ei ght , at
t hat st age. They sai d "no probl em ." I was event ual l y
i nform ed t hat m y chi l dren were grant ed schol arshi ps
t o R i verdal e C ount ry S chool . That ’s t he school
where
t he
at t ended,
Kennedys
one
of
and
t hese
al l
posh
of
t hese
peopl e
bourgeoi s
pri vat e
schoo l s i n New York, you see. S o I l eave S out h
Afri ca wi t h j ust t wo sui t cases, and I coul dn’t even
afford t o buy a regul ar sui t case, I got cardboard
box es. And I bought l eat her st raps, and we had si x
of t hem , t wo for each. To t he S t at es you are al l owed
t wo
bags ,
you
see.
So
we
dum ped
al l
our
bel ongi ngs i n t here, and off we went t o t he Uni t ed
S t at es. And, but t hey were great , t he peopl e m et us
t ook us t o t hei r pri vat e hom e fi rst and t he nex t day
we woul d go t o C ol um bi a Uni versi t y di d al l t he
prel i m i nary affai rs , and t hen t hey t ol d m e t o go and
l ook at som e apart m ent s t hat t hey offered m e. S o we
chose one ri ght opposi t e t he Uni versi t y, across t he
st reet and t hat was great . Ki ds of course, had t o
t ravel by subway t o R i verdal e, whi ch was j ust pret t y
far. But C ol um b i a Uni versi t y was great for m e. It
was an ex peri ence - I becam e very act i vel y i nvol ved
on
speaki ng
cam pai gns
Int ernat i onal pl at form s.
m ai nl y
for
Am nest y
Because I di d i t because I
104
fel t I owed i t t o t hem , but I di d i t on S out h Afri can
pol i t i cs, what ’s goi n g on. I t hi nk when i n t he
ei ght i es we knew m ore of what ’s goi ng on i n S out h
Afri ca t han t he S out h Afri cans t hem sel ves. Because
t he
m edi a
here
was
t erri bl y
gagged,
but
t he
Am eri can press and t he m edi a were abl e t o show
what ’s goi ng on, you know, t he ei ght i es were pret t y
vol at i l e here, you see. And i t hel ped us and i t was
t rem endous especi al l y from t he younger generat i on
t he ki nd of support you got from t hem was real l y,
real l y great . And i t m ade m e survi ve, you know, fel t
useful bei ng out t here i n t he S t at es and al l of t hat .
Then t owards t hi s, I di d a Mast ers program m e t here
at C ol um bi a Uni versi t y and fi ni shed t hat , and at t he
end of t hat peri od, Am nest y Int ernat i onal i nvi t ed m e
t o co -produce a rock concert i t was cal l ed Hum an
R i ght s Now , whi ch went around t he worl d, t o 28
ci t i es. Al l t he bi g nam es i n rock I m ust t el l you t hi s
craz y t hi ng about rock m usi c. R ock m usi c and I
were never fri ends, t o m e i t was a bunch of noi se.
S o once I was on t he W est C oast , I t hi nk i t was S an
Franci sco, Am nest y Int ernat i onal cal l ed m e - t hey
fl y m e out from som e backt own i n S an Franci sco
and say I’m requi red t o at t end a concert . Now t o m e
a
concert
is
l i ke
a
phi l harm oni c
you
know,
orchest ral ki nd of m usi c, you know t hat was m y i dea
of a concert . Then t hey dri ve m e t o t hi s pl ace and i t
i s cal l ed C ow P al ace I sai d "C ow P al ace, what an
odd nam e."
But as I wal k i n I see candl es,
everybody's hol di ng candl es. You know t hi s i s a
sym bol of Am nest y Int ernat i onal , you see.
And I
l ook around careful l y, I see m ost of t hem were
young pe opl e, you know norm al l y t he concert s t hat I
105
at t ended here i n C i t y Hal l and t hi ngs t here, al l
dodderi ng ol d peopl e, you know. And t hen I’m t aken
backst age I’m i nt roduced t o peopl e cal l ed S t i ng,
Ten Thousand Mani acs, P et er P aul and Mary, and al l
ki nds, P et er Gabri el . Anyway, al l ki nds of peopl e di dn’t m ake sense t o m e, but t hey were very ni ce
and al l of t hat . And t he concert st art ed and m y
i nsi des began t o shake because i t ’s so l oud. It was
rock m usi c, but t hey were great m usi ci ans - P et er
Gabri el and S t i ng and al l of t hem . Onl y t hen, I
began t o t ake i n, t o l i st en t he act ual words t hat t hey
began t o si ng.
S o I com e back t o New York and
casual l y t el l m y sons "Hey, you know what , I went
t o a rock concert ." They l ook at m e sai d: "You went
t o a rock concert ? " Because I am t he one t hat ’s
al ways t urni ng t he vol um e down at hom e.
whi l e
t hey asked
me
"W ho
pl ayed
Aft er a
t here? "
I
rem em ber t hat ’s t he word t hey used, I sai d: "I don’t
know, som ebody Bono and S t i ng and ya, P et er
Gabri el and Ten Thousand Mani acs" and I rat t l ed
off som e of t he nam es.
Bot h t hese guys, wi t h t he
m out hs open, eyes popped out , t hey l ooked at m e.
They coul dn’t bel i eve t hat I had m et t hese peopl e,
you see. They sai d: "Di d you m eet t hem ? " I sai d "Ya
I
m et
t hem
backst age."
"Di dn’t
you
t ake
aut o graphs? " I sai d: "No, I don’t know who t hese
creat ures are." "Di d you enj oy i t ? " I sai d "no I di d
not ." S o t hen t hey had, t hi s was cal l ed C onspi racy
of Hope C oncert s t hat t hey were runni ng i n t he
Uni t ed S t at es, Am nest y Int ernat i onal . W el l t he nex t
one wa s goi ng t o be hel d at t he Gi ant s S t adi um , i n
New J ersey. Thi s was a 75 000 -seat er st adi um . Of
course, m y whol e fam i l y now i s i nvi t ed and we are
106
si t t i ng i n t he di gni t ari es box and we si t wi t h al l t he
art i st s. W e m et everybody you know, Moham m ed
Al i , and al l t he fi l m st ars, S i gourney W eaver and
you nam e t hem we m et t hem . And m y ki ds were,
t hey coul dn’t bel i eve t hei r eyes t hat t hey were goi ng
t o go and get aut ographs and si t t i ng at t he sam e
t abl e havi ng l unch and di nner and al l of t hat . S o i n
t hat sense I t hi n k, t he ki ds real l y t hought t hat t hi s
was payback t i m e and Daddy di d i t for t hem , onl y
t hat concert . But t hen when t hey fi ni shed t hei r hi gh
school , t hey had choi ces i n col l eges t o at t end
because t hey were offered a l ot of schol arshi ps,
everyt hi ng free, I di dn’t have t o pay a penny
because t hey were good socceri t es, you see.
And
everybody want ed t hem because of t hei r soccer. And
t hese pri vat e col l eges have got a l ot of m oney, and
t hey gave t hem , and each one of t hem , chose. One
chose t o go t o Oberl on C ol l ege , R avel . Nol an l eft i t
t o m e t o choose a col l ege for hi m .
S o I chose a
col l ege i n Mi nnesot a cal l ed McAl i st er, and he was
very happy wi t h i t , so happy t hat he di dn’t com e
back hom e. He m arri ed a person from Mi nnesot a and
he i s happi l y m arri ed and has a chi l d t here now. S o
he was very happy. But when t hese Hum an R i ght s
C oncert s st art ed i t went round t he worl d. Aft er i t
went round t he cont i nent i t cam e t o t he Uni t ed
S t at es. The fi rst one was i n P hi l adel phi a, agai n t he
Gi ant s S t adi um i n P hi l adel phi a, anot her 80 000
seat s. S o I cal l ed t he chi l dren t o com e and at t end
t hi s.
MN: C an we pause S i r?
END OF TAP E
ON R ES UMP TION B S IDE
107
MN: W e are back.
S V:
W el l , t hese concert s st art ed I t hi nk t he fi rst concert
was i n London. I was abl e t o t ravel by t hen, al l over
t he worl d, I was t ravel l i ng.
I rem em ber I used t o
t ravel t o London t wi ce a week, because I was one
of t he producers. The head offi ce of Am nest y
Int ernat i onal was i n London. I used t o t ravel t o
London, al l over t he worl d I t ravel l ed overni ght
ki nd of t hi ngs, before t he act ual concert s. But when
t he concert s st art ed i t st art ed off i n London. W e had
t wo Boei ng 747’s; one for t he equi pm ent and t he
gaffers and al l of t hose; and t he ot her for t he art i st s
and al l of us. S om e of t he peopl e t hat t ook part i n
t hat co ncert were I know, S t i ng, who el se? P et er
Gabri el , Bruce S pri ngst een what ’s t hat wom an?
MN: Bono?
S V:
Bono, a whol e l ot of t hem I forget t hem by now.
But anyway t here were whol e wonderful bunch of
peopl e, Youssen D’or from S enegal .
MN: Harry Bel efont é?
S V:
Harry Bel efont é cam e t o a concert i n New J ersey.
He was i nvi t ed t oo, t here was, Mi ri am Makebe was
t here, but not on t he t our, no t hese were rock,
m ai nl y rock peopl e. But t he onl y rock person, non rock person who was J oan Baez , she i s a count ry
si nger. And we spent m any hours t oget her because I
t hi nk J oan Baez and I coul d rel at e a l ot because of
our age, I t hi nk and not l i ki ng l oud m usi c, ya, so
t hat was great . That concert was real l y super for us.
W e ended up i n Los Angel es i n t he end. There were
t hree concert s i n t he Uni t ed S t at es, t wo i n C anada,
so we di d al l t hat . But I m ust say t hat t he concert
ex peri ence
wasn’t
a
great
ex peri ence
because
108
som ehow (a) i t ’s t oo noi sy, t oo l oud. And t here i s
t hi s huge ego t hi ng t hat runs wi t h t hese art i st s, not
t hem se l ves
personal l y
but
t he
securi t y
peopl e
around t hem , you know, t hey t reat t hese peopl e l i ke
Gods or Goddesses or what ever. And you coul dn’t
get t en m et res cl ose t o t hem ex cept t hat peopl e l i ke
us were okay we had our credent i al s and we coul d
do i t .
But t h e way t hey t reat ed ot her peopl e. W e
had a huge probl em i n Del hi , where at one st age,
Bruce S pri ngst een’s securi t y peopl e were runni ng
t he securi t y syst em , ri ght . In Del hi t hey becam e so
rude t o t he publ i c i n t he concert i t sel f we had t o fi re
t he whol e l ot of t hem . And sai d "no, i n fut ure we do
securi t y not Bruce S pri ngst een’s securi t y cam p."
They were real l y rude, you know. There was an
occasi on i n London once, when t he C hai rperson of
Am nest y Int ernat i onal , com i ng t o si t at t he t abl e, at
t he head t abl e, Br uce S pri ngst een i s t here I am
si t t i ng t here and ot hers. And she cam e i n a few
m i nut es l at er and she wal ked up t o t he t abl e - she
knows i t ’s her t abl e and al l t hat . The guy pushed her
out , m an, t hi s was Bruce S pri ngst eens securi t y t hey were bi g burl y guys . And t hey had t hat ego; I
t hi nk i t was, Bruce i s a si m pl e guy, you know, but
hi s m en are real t erri bl e guys t hey were l i ke C IA
t ype, you know. S o t hat ’s i t , I t hi nk. I fi ni shed m y
m ast ers, di d t hi s and t hen t he probl em arose. Oh,
event ual l y m y wi fe and m y daught er cam e up t here,
and
she
st udi ed
at
t he
Fashi on
Inst i t ut e
of
Technol ogy and t hey were al l hopi ng t hat I’m goi ng
t o st ay over. And t he Am eri cans were al so put t i ng a
l ot of pressure on m e not t o go back t o S out h Afri ca
and, but personal ex peri ence i n Am eri ca drove m e
109
back t o S out h Afri ca apart from m y pol i t i cal reasons
t o com e back. You know, I knew a l ot of peopl e i n
Am eri ca, on a personal l evel , and I recal l once, one
of t he peopl e t hat t ook care of us when we went
t here, were t he Newet t s. And I r em em ber I was at
Yal e, for one sum m er, doi ng research and t hi s gi rl
cal l ed m e from London t o say S unny, m y grandm a,
ya m y grandm ot her di ed. S o I sai d, oh shi t ! You
know I had t o com e from Yal e, dri ve down t o New
York. I phoned Trees, I t ol d Trees t hi s ol d l ady
di ed, you know, we got - we are Indi ans now, you
see, and t hese were J ews, you know. Our cust om s
says t hat when you hear som ebody di ed you at t end
t hat funeral . You don’t get i nvi t ed t o a funeral , for
t he Afri can i t i s t he sam e t hi ng, al ri ght . S o I dr i ve
down si x hours I t hi nk; from Yal e t o New York;
pi ck up Trees; rush t o t hi s funeral . It was at a
C hapel , we go i n t here, t here are onl y t he fi ve
m em bers of t he fam i l y t here.
The fat her, hi s wi fe,
wi t h whom he had separat ed, and hi s t hree chi l dren.
Al l grownup, I m ean adul t s. Nobody el se. They were
si t t i ng
t here
chat t i ng
away
as
if
spendi ng
an
aft ernoon t oget her as a fam i l y anyway. S o I sai d
"Oh God, we m ade a m i st ake we are not supposed t o
be here." But anyway we sat t hrough t he servi ce. It
t ook fi ft een m i nut es, everyone shook hands wi t h one
anot her and each of t hem buz z ed off on t here own.
I’m dri vi ng back hom e, I t el l Trees, "You know
what , t hi s i s not accept abl e, l et ’s go and see t hi s ol d
m an. You know hi s m ot her was j ust crem at ed l et ’s
go and dri ve up and see hi m ." It was about an hour’s
dri ve. And we drove up t here, and Am eri cans don’t
l eave doors open.
They are so securi t y consci ous,
110
t he way we have becom e here now. That goi ng t o hi s
apart m ent , t he door i s open, we wal k i n t here, we
see t hi s guy wi t h hi s hand on hi s t abl e, head i n hi s
hands, and when he saw us he j ust j um ped for j oy
and hugged us. You know hi s own chi l dren di dn’t
t urn up t here t o be wi t h hi m . I rem em ber t el l i ng
Trees aft er we l eft t here t hat "I don’t want t o di e i n
t hi s count ry." You know. And a few m ont hs l at er I
t hi nk, an ol d l ady t hat we used t o see i n t he sam e
st reet t hat we l i ved i n, for a whi l e we di dn’t see
her. S o what happened t o t hi s ol d l ady? Because
t hey have rout i nes you know. At t hree o’cl ock she
wi l l be crossi ng he r l awn wi t h a wal ki ng st i ck. W e
di dn’t
see
happened?
t hi s
ol d
l ady for
som e
t i m e,
what
Then we l earnt t hat she di ed i n her
apart m ent , rot t ed t here for a week, unt i l t he st ench
al ert ed t he nei ghbours. You know t hat convi nced m e
I am not st ayi ng i n t hi s pl a ce, you know. The great
t hi ng i n S out h Afri ca, bot h wi t h Afri cans and
Indi ans i s t hat when t here i s a funeral peopl e ral l y
even i f your nei ghbours are your enem i es t hey com e
t oget her and consol e you and t here i s som e ki nd of
sol i dari t y. Not i n t he S t at es , t hei r cul t ure i s t ot al l y
di fferent . They carry t hei r i ndependence and space
t o t he ex t rem e. And I cam e back t o S out h Afri can
agai n; wi t h t wo em pt y bags; no pl ace t o st ay; I st ay
wi t h rel at i ves. And Mal a S i ngh persuaded m e t o
com e and t each on a part -t i m e basi s, i n pol i t i cal
sci ence.
And I’m st i l l t here, on t hat basi s, t hat ’s
t he end.
MN: W hat year was i t when you cam e back?
S V:
1990.
MN: 1990.
111
S V:
But I al so sensed before 1990 t hat som et hi ng i s
happeni ng i n S out h Afri ca.
Because som ewhere i n
1986/ 87, I was doi ng i nt ernat i onal hum an ri ght s. It
was a sem i nar ki nd of t hi ng run by a guy cal l ed
Loui s Henken, who i s t he guru i n hum an ri ght s and
al l of t hat ki nd of st uff.
S o t here were about
fourt een of us i n t hat sem i nar group, and we had t o
choose, you do n’t wri t e ex am s, you present a paper
and al l of t hat . S o you had t o go hi m and t el l hi m
ri ght okay I want t o wri t e a paper on X Y and Z.
Then he t el l s m e i n cl ass, "S unny, you don’t have t o
deci de what you are goi ng t o do. C om e and see m e
i n m y offi ce."
I go t here; he says; very ni ce you
know; very pat roni si ngl y ni ce; and he t el l s m e t hat
he
want s
me
to
wri t e
a
C onst i t ut i on for S out h Afri ca.
m e t hi nk
go
and
paper
on
t he
New
S o I sai d okay, l et
about i t . S o I went back t he nex t week I
t el l
hi m :
"you
kno w
P rof,
t he
New
C onst i t ut i on of S out h Afri ca m ust n’t be wri t t en
out si de S out h Afri ca, i t m ust be wri t t en
in
S out h
Afri ca, by t he S out h Afri cans." I t hi nk for t he fi rst
t i m e he began t o see m e, of course - ya I t hi nk so,
t hat ’s what i t di d, and he becam e very col d t oward
m e and he asked m e "what do you want t o wri t e
on? "
I sai d I want t o wri t e on t he Uni t ed Nat i ons
i nst rum ent s: t he t wo convent i ons, and t he dynam i cs
of t hose t wo convent i ons. Because he, I t hi nk hal f
hi s
book
on
hum an
ri ght s
is
on
t hose
t wo
convent i ons, you see. S o I wrot e a 40 -page paper, I
t hi nk, t he fi rst t en pages I went , I l ashed out agai nst
hi m , you see.
I at t acked hi m and he rel uct ant l y
gave m e an A, ya.
112
MN: S o you cam e back and what whi ch m ont h was i t i f
you rem em ber?
S V:
I cam e ba ck i n J anuary.
MN: In J anuary. S o you cam e back i n J anuary and i n t wo
m ont hs t i m e pol i t i cal pri soners were bei ng rel eased,
but
in
t wo
m ont hs
time
Nel son
Mandel a
was
rel eased, so what was goi ng on?
S V:
W el l t hat confi rm ed m y bel i efs because you know
by 19 90, by t he t i m e I had l eft , I had been heari ng
t hese Groot e S chuur m i nut es and al l t hi s. Nel son
bei ng rel eased from R obben Isl and and t aken t o
P ol l sm oor, and t he ot hers event ual l y j oi ned. And
you know t hi s i s som et hi ng t hat we openl y debat ed
on R obben Isl a nd when we were t here, t hat how
st upi d t he Afri kaner was, by put t i ng al l of us
t oget her, so t hat apart from gi vi ng m oral sust enance
to
one
anot her
we
al so
devel oped
pol i t i cal l y
t oget her. That i f I was a rul er at t hat t i m e; I woul d
have put peopl e i n di ffer ent pl aces;
i sol at e t hem ;
break down any ki nd of sol i dari t y; and t hat ’s
preci sel y what t hey di d event ual l y. But t hey di d i t
for a di fferent reason because t hey rel eased, t ook
Nel son out of R obben Isl and, put hi m i n P ol l sm oor
because t hey woul d have access t o hi m and break
Nel son down.
And t hen get t he ot hers, but at t he
sam e t i m e t he i nt ernat i onal pol i t i cs at t he t i m e ,was
t he col l apse of t he S ovi et Uni on, ri ght . And t he
W est were no l onger obl i ged t o support P W Bot ha,
at t hat t i m e. S o deal s were m ade out si de S out h
Afri ca for t he rel ease of Nel son and everybody el se.
1994 di d not t ake pl ace because of what happened i n
Kem pt on P ark. 1994 was deci ded by W ashi ngt on.
They deci ded t hat t hi s i s what i s goi ng t o happen.
113
The proposal s put i n 1992/ 93 at Kem pt on P a rk were
proposal s t hat bot h t he IMF and W ashi ngt on put
forward.
Thi s i s t he deal : "you are goi ng t o have
t he TR C ; you are goi ng t o com prom i se; you are
goi ng t o t hrow your Freedom C hart er down t he
t oi l et . You are goi ng t o share power; you know t he
GNU and al l of t hat cam e i n and of course, t he ANC
unasham edl y accept ed. And for t hat we feel t erri bl y
- l ook I wasn’t ANC person but I di dn’t ex pect t he
dept h of t he sel l out . That i s m y bi ggest probl em .
MN: In t he sam e breat h I was goi ng t o ask you P rof, what
do you t hi nk m ade t he Nat i onal P art y rel ent ?
S V:
Because t he W est was no l onger goi ng t o support
t hem .
Because t he onl y peopl e t hat support ed t he
Nat i onal P art y at t hat t i m e was t he W est ern powers.
They propped up, [ t hen] t hey pul l ed t he pl ug, aft er
t he col l apse of t he S ovi et Uni on.
MN: W hat ’s your vi ew or what was your vi ew on t he
C ODES A,
S V:
t he t al ks?
W e di dn’t part i ci pat e. I t hi nk a l ot of peopl e who
were i nvol ved i n pol i t i cs for a l ong, l ong t i m e
refused t o part i ci pat e i n C ODES A because we saw
t he s el l out t hat was t aki ng pl ace.
The deal s t hat
were bei ng st ruck and you know I don’t know
whet her by desi gn or what Kem pt on P ark i s a W orl d
Trade C ent re, i sn’t i t ?
S o t here was wheel i ng and
deal i ng i n t he Trade C ent re. They changed t he nam e
qui ckl y t o Ke m pt on P ark. It was Trade C ent re.
MN: W hat i s i t s peci fi cal l y t hat you are agai nst i n t he
C ODES A, was i t t he com posi t i on or was i t ?
S V:
No, t he whol e i dea t hat you are bei ng offered
l i berat i on or what ever you want t o cal l i t , on t ot al l y
di fferent t erm s fro m what you were st ruggl i ng for
114
2/ 300 years. You know, you want ed l and; you
want ed redi st ri but i on of weal t h; you want ed free
educat i on;
heal t h
and
what ever,
and
what ever.
These were t he m aj or pi l l ars of al l t he m ovem ent s.
And none of t hese t hi ngs were acc ept ed and you
em braced t he yest erday’s oppressors as your fel l ow
bret hren you know. That was, I am not sayi ng t hat
we m ust ent ert ai n revenge or anyt hi ng, but I t hi nk
t hey j ust went so far wi t h t he resul t t hat yest erday’s
C om m uni st
P art y
peopl e
are
t oday’s
bi ggest
capi t al i st . You know, your C yri l R am aposas’; your
Mac Maharaj ’s; your Terror Lekot as t o an ex t ent ;
t he ot her bi g m i ni ng guy, what ’s hi s nam e.
MN: S ex wal e?
S V:
Tokyo. Al l of t hese peopl e; al l of t hem ; have
becom e bi g. Of course, t hey do al l of t hi s i n t he
nam e of bl ack em powerm ent , you know, whi ch i s a
l ot of rubbi sh - i t i s j ust bl ack el i t e, whi ch swi t ched
i deol ogi es j ust l i ke t hat , j ust for m oney. And i t ’s
very, very sad.
MN: I know you are not i n t he ANC ; but as a di st ant
observer; what do t hi nk m ade t hem rel ent or m ade
t hem gi ve up al l
what t hey fought for consi deri ng
t he sufferi ng t hey’ve endured?
S V:
Two t hi ngs: one i s power. I t hi nk t hey were hungry
for power. The ot her t hi ng was t hat t he gueri l l a war
had no chance of succeedi ng, especi al l y wi t h t he
fal l of t he S ovi et Uni on. S o t hat opt i on real l y
wasn’t t here, and when t hi s possi bi l i t y of shari ng
power cam e up, t hey grabbed i t wi t h t wo hands, at
what ever cost . They di dn’t ki ck and fi ght over a
num ber of i ssues, t hey agreed t o al l of t hem
vi rt ual l y.
115
MN: The general opi ni on i s t hat t hey got t he pol i t i cal
power but t hey don’t have econom i c power, do you
go al ong?
S V:
Oh yes! It ’s what happened i n t he rest of Afri ca you
know, t hey got fl ag i ndependence, and t hat ’s i t , no
econom i c. Look, you can se e what ’s happeni ng
t oday even i n S out h Afri ca wi t h t he way t hey are
spendi ng m oney. The way t hey are m ovi ng. You
know, S out h Afri ca I t hi nk, was t he onl y count ry i n
t he
whol e
wi de
i m pl em ent ed
worl d
st ruct ural
t hat
accept ed
adj ust m ent
and
program m es
wi t hout t he IMF/ W orl d Bank form al l y aski ng t hem
t o i m pl em ent t he fi rst count ry. Onl y because i t was
IMF/ W orl d Bank t hat draft ed t he R DP and GEAR ,
event ual l y.
st ruct ural
S out h Afri ca has every com ponent of
adj ust m ent
program m e
t hey
have
i m pl em ent ed. Therefore t o day, t hey have cut back
on
soci al
spendi ng.
S oci al
spendi ng
is
heal t h;
housi ng; roads; school s; educat i on; al l of t hese. You
know som e of t he t hi ngs t hat t he peopl e want I m ean
t hese are t he basi c t hi ngs for about 40 m i l l i on of
S out h Afri can peopl e, t hi s i s what t hey want . You
know i f you l ook at t he st at i st i cs i n S out h Afri ca,
t he per capi t a i ncom e and t he GDP of t he peopl e i s
l ower t oday t han i t was i n 1972.
The gap bet ween
t he ri ch and t he poor i s l i ke l i vi ng i n di fferent
cont i nent s. There are a handfu l of bl ack peopl e, t he
bl ack el i t e who are way, way ahead, and i n fact you
know, I was t al ki ng t o a bunch of peopl e t he ot her
day. Even t he whi t e corporat e worl d i s em barrassed
by t he l i fest yl es of t hei r fel l ow bl ack bret hren i n t he
corporat e
worl d.
The
w ay
t hese
peopl e
fl aunt i ng.
Look,
Tony
Bl ai r
doesn’t
have
are
hi s
116
personal aeropl ane. Govan Mbeki buys hi m sel f for
fi ve hundred...[ i nt errupt i on]
MN: Thabo.
S V:
Thabo Mbeki . I’m sorry Thabo Mbeki - for 500 -odd
m i l l i on. W hy? P eopl e are st arvi ng; t hey don’t h ave
any m oney t o eat ; t here i s fam i ne i n S out h Afri ca
t hey are not t al ki ng about i t . You go t o t he Nort hern
P rovi nces and al l of
t hese peopl e are st arvi ng.
P eopl e at UDW can’t afford fees t o at t end l ect ures.
And you get a R am ashal a who pays hersel f 1½ m i l l i on a year as a sal ary, al m ost . I m ean t hese are
t he bl ack el i t e t hat are unscrupul ous you know.
They t hi nk t hat t hey are ent i t l ed because for 300 years t hey have been depri ved of access t o l ux ury
and m oney and al l of t hat . They are grabbi ng i t any
whi ch
way
t hey
can,
and
t hey
are
doi ng
it
unasham edl y you know. And t he whi t e corporat e
worl d i s em barrassed by t hi s. Al t hough t hey were
t he ones who seduced t hem you know, t hey, t he
whi t e corporat e worl d doesn’t fl aunt i t s weal t h, you
know, but t hese guys fl au nt i t . S o t hat ’s where we
are.
MN: How do you see, do you see any rem edy?
S V:
I t hi nk t he onl y sol ut i on i s t hat t he st ruggl e hasn’t
st art ed yet . W e have t o st art vi rt ual l y from t he
begi nni ngs agai n. I t hi nk t he onl y di fference now i s
t hat
possi bl y
we
hav e
space,
t hat ’s
t he
onl y
di fference. I feel free t hat I can get up and go where
I want t o go. I can say what I am sayi ng here t oday,
but I wasn’t abl e t o say t hi s t en, t went y years ago
t hat ’s t he onl y di fference. But you know okay,
we've got t he ri ght t o vot e, we've got t he ri ght t o
free speech bl ah, bl ah, bl ah. But we don’t have t he
117
ri ght t o free educat i on; no free m edi ci ne; no free
housi ng or anyt hi ng l i ke t hat whi ch i s t he crux of
dem ocracy. If you don’t have t hat , t o have t he ri ght
t o vot e i s m eani ngl ess.
You can’t eat a vot e; you
can’t shel t er under a vot e, you see. Freedom m eans
t he basi c condi t i ons of l i fe need t o be addressed,
and I’m not sayi ng t hat everybody m ust l i ve i n
beaut i ful hom es, but you know t he ot her day; oh I
const ant l y dri ve up and down t he count ry t hese
days, and I see t hese R DP hom es. W e al ways
deri ded t he Boers for t he m at chbox es t hat t hey bui l t
for us i n t he t ownshi ps, i f you l ook at t hose
m at chbox es t hey are pal aces com pared t o t he R DP
hom es. These are l i t t l e t hi ngs wi t h a sm al l wi ndow
and t hat ’s al l .
And peopl e have t o pay for t hese.
The Boers di dn’t m ake t hem pay, t hey charged
t hem rent , but t hi s i s a sham e - t he l i t t l e hovel t hat
t hey bui l t for t he peopl e. You know, you don’t have
t o go far - you go past t he Mari anhi l l Tol l ; i f you
st op t here one day, j ust st op and l ook on t he ri ght ,
l ook at t hese R DP hom es. The wi ndow i s not bi gger
t hat t hose bl ock phot ographs, not hi ng, t hat ’s al l i t
has; and a door i n t he front ; and a round t oi l et i n
t he back som ewhere.
And I don’t t hi n k t hat was
what we st ruggl ed for. I don’t t hi nk so.
MN: The voi ce from t he poor, som e of t he poor peopl e, i s
t hat i t was bet t er duri ng t he apart hei d t han i t i s
now, and t he onl y di fference i s t hat back t hen t hey
di dn’t have a voi ce, t hey di dn’t have a pl a t form t o
voi ce t hei r concerns on.
S V:
You see, t here t he answer has t o be yes and no.
You know, i n t he ol d days peopl e carri ed t he
dom pass; and i f you don’t know what dom pass was
118
and t he probl em s; t hat peopl e went t hrough wi t h t he
dom pass; i t ’s a di fferen t ex peri ence. Ya, now t hey
don’t have t hat . S o t he change, i t 's bet t er now t hat
you don’t have t hat because l ook, I grew up duri ng
t hat peri od when peopl e by t he t housand used t o be
snat ched from t he st reet s; t hrown i nt o t he back of a
pol i ce van s hunt ed of f t o pri sons. And event ual l y,
i nt o work forces on t he farm s, and al l over l i ke t hat .
It was j ust sl avery i n a di fferent nam e. S o i n t hat
sense i t ’s great , but i n m any ot her ways i t ’s real l y
t erri bl e because t oday you have got t o pay for your
educat i on. R i g ht ? You have got t o pay for your
heal t h; t ransport cost s are ex orbi t ant ; a whol e host
of t hi ngs are di fferent . You can’t save; peopl e
st arve; you l ook at al l - I don’t cal l t hem i nform al
housi ng, t hat ’s an euphem i sm for sl um s. You l ook
at peopl e l i vi ng und er cardboard and pl ast i c, and
t hen you begi n t o underst and why t he l evel s of
cri m e are so hi gh. I m ean nobody condones cri m e.
But I t hi nk one needs t o underst and what dri ves
m any peopl e t o com m i t - I’m not t al ki ng about t he
bi g syndi cat es; t he peopl e t hat hol d up banks and
t he peopl e t hat hol d up S VB; and al l of t hose t he
whi t e -col l ar cri m e and al l of t hat . You know, i n fact
whi t e -col l ar cri m e i s great er now t han i t has ever
been before. And peopl e i nvol ved i n whi t e -col l ar
cri m e are not bl ack peopl e. Onl y now, sl owl y bl ack
peopl e are get t i ng i n, st upi dl y, but i t ’s conduct ed by
m ai nl y t he whi t e peopl e. And t here you are t al ki ng
about bi l l i ons not t he 2/ 3 000 t hat t he com m on l aw
cri m i nal s cat ch you for, st eal , you know, m ug you,
and al l t hat . The onl y di ffer ence I t hi nk now i s t hat
cri m e i n S out h Afri ca has a t aken a qual i t at i ve
119
change.
I’m probabl y bei ng very subj ect i ve about
t hi s because m y brot her was shot t wo weeks ago,
and aft er t aki ng hi s m oney.
But t hat seem s t o be
t he pat t ern t hese days, t hat peopl e are bei ng robbed
and t hen shot and ki l l ed - t hat seem s t o be a pat t ern
m ore and m ore t heses days, whi ch di dn’t ex i st
previ ousl y. If i t ’s pl ai n robbery I can rel at e t hat t o
soci oeconom i c condi t i ons, but t he ki l l i ng of peopl e
aft er t hey have t aken t he m oney i s som et hi ng t hat I
can’t ex pl ai n real l y.
MN: C an you pai nt a pi ct ure of t he S out h Afri ca you
were st ruggl i ng for, and how di fferent i t i s from
now because you have j ust descri bed what i t i s
now. But can you pai nt a pi ct ure of t he S out h Afri ca
you pi c t ured?
S V:
W el l t he S out h Afri ca t hat we st ruggl ed for I t hi nk
i s em bodi ed m ai nl y i n t he Freedom C hart er; t he Ten
P oi nt
P rogram m e;
t he
P AC
docum ent s;
everyt hi ng, but what i t i s at t he m om ent .
i t ’s
It i s a
count ry, a freedom where t here had t o be som e ki nd
of an egal i t ari ani sm , al t hough a l ot of us began t o
argue whet her a soci al i st soci et y coul d be bui l t
i m m edi at el y aft er a revol ut i on. The probl em was
t hat revol ut i on - can i t happen i n S out h Afri ca?
W hen woul d i t t ake pl ace? But I t hi nk everybody,
across t he pol i t i cal spect rum , t he m i ni m um t hey
ex pect ed t o have was som e ki nd of an egal i t ari an
soci et y, no ex t rem es of t he condi t i ons and t hat i s
what was m i ssi ng.
MN: C om i ng back, personal l y when you were reuni t ed
wi t h you daught er di d you - [ i nt errupt i on]
S V:
S orry?
120
MN: I’m
sayi ng
when
you
cam e
back
aft er
your
i m pri sonm ent di d you ever t el l you daught er about
t he i nci dent where she saved your l i fe i n pri son,
when you were about t o com m i t sui ci de?
S V:
No I don’t t al k about m y t ort ure, al l of t hat . I t hi nk
t he on l y t i m e she heard about i t when she saw t hese
t apes t hat I m ade for UDW 300. I di dn’t even t el l
Trees. W e don’t , you know l ook: i n al l m y years on
R obben
Isl and
al m ost
everybody were t ort ured,
ri ght . There was onl y one pol i t i cal pri soner, a
S W AP O guy who woul d j ust drop hi s pant s and
show us how he was shot and di sfi gured, nobody
el se
t al ked
about
it.
It ’s
not
easy,
i t ’s
not
com fort abl e, we di dn’t do i t , nobody.
MN: Looki ng back at your l i fe your pol i t i cal l i fe and al l ,
i s t here anyt hi ng you can pi npoi nt a nd say i f you
had a chance you coul d do i t agai n ri ght , t hat you
feel you have done wrong, i s t here anyt hi ng at al l
whi ch you feel you have done wrong?
S V:
No. I t hi nk what ever I di d, even duri ng m y st udent
m ovem ent days, I t hi nk i t ’s di ffi cul t t o say whet her
you can do t hat agai n, whet her i t was wrong. But I
t hi nk gi ven t he peri od, gi ven t he t i m e, I t hi nk I di d
absol ut el y correct l y. S i m i l arl y, duri ng m y t i m e wi t h
AP DUS A and al l of t hat . I don’t t hi nk I woul d have
done anyt hi ng di fferent l y wi t hi n t hat con t ex t , wi t hi n
t hat peri od and al l of t hat . Now you can’t t ranspose
t i m es, ri ght , gi ven t hose t i m es and I t hi nk, but I
t hi nk for m e t he best t hi ng t hat I ever di d was when
I refused t o becom e a st at e wi t ness. To m e, I t hi nk
t hat saved m e; i t wasn’t a bi g de bat e t hat I put up
wi t h; but t he poi nt i s t hat t he t em pt at i on was t here;
t he offer was m ade.
And I coul d have easi l y, you
121
know, t hrough som e qui rk of m y t hi nki ng t o say t hat
l ook I’l l have m y fam i l y and forget about pri son and
com e back hom e.
But som et i m es, I si gh i n rel i ef
t hat I di dn’t m ake t hat deci si on you know. I don’t
know what woul d have happened t o m e i f I becam e a
st at e wi t ness, you know. Because I am t el l i ng you,
i n t hose days, and you can ask Vi no, t hat peopl e's
at t i t ude t owards st at e wi t nesse s was real l y one of
ost raci sm . They becam e t ot al l y ost raci z ed. S om e
peopl e were even el i m i nat ed, l i ke t hese t wo cl ose
com rades of m i ne, Arm st rong and Madoda. They are
out ; we don’t know where t hey are; what t hey are
doi ng; t hey are nowhere near t he peopl e t hat t hey
were associ at ed wi t h previ ousl y. These guys were i n
t hei r t hi rt i es - for t hi rt y years of your l i fe you had a
rel at i onshi p wi t h a bunch of peopl e, or m ore t han a
bunch of peopl e. And suddenl y you becom e a st at e
wi t ness you: are rej ect ed by your cl ose com rades.
But , what about soci et y around you? They al so
rej ect you because peopl e had a very st rong sense of
i nt egri t y and m oral i t y i n t hose days. Now i t ’s
di fferent but i n t hose days i t was very, very st rong.
Because I know when I cam e back from pri son t he
securi t y pol i ce went around t o m y nei ghbourhood
and asked t hem t o keep an eye on m e; who i s
com i ng i n; do I go out and al l of t hat .
But you
know what , each one of t hem i n t hei r own qui et
way, woul d com e and t el l m e "l ook t hi s i s what t he
cops have com e and t ol d m e t o do”, and al l of t hat ,
you know. You real l y fel t great t hose days t hat you
had t he peopl e behi nd you, t he peopl e support ed
you, you see.
But t hi ngs have changed si nce, you
know, i n t he ei ght i es t here were l ot s of sel l out s,
122
and you kno w, wi t h com rades or freedom fi ght ers
becam e t ort urers you know. The peopl e t hat ki l l ed
t he
Gri ffi t hs
[ coupl e]
were
in
t he
pol i t i cal
m ovem ent , you know. That ki nd of t hi ng never
happened i n t he, up unt i l t he sevent i es and t hi ngs
l i ke t hat . Very, very sel dom woul d you have a
i m pi m pi , t here was a ki nd of m oral i t y. I t hi nk I was
t el l i ng you about you know, when I was t eachi ng at
t he M.L. S ul t an Techni cal C ol l ege, I used t o l i ve at
t he Hi m al aya House. And i n t he bot t om t here was
t hi s, not S al ot gang, C ri m son Le ague operat ors. And
t hese guys were t he cri m i nal s of t he day, but very
posh, I m ean and al l of t hat , but t hey support ed you
and hel ped you al ong. S o you had a di fferent ki nd of
rel at i onshi p wi t h peopl e. Because t hey t oo, saw
t hei r sal vat i on i n t he pol i t i ca l st ruggl e and wherever
t hey coul d hel p, t hey woul d hel p you. But t oday’s
cri m e gangs wi l l ki l l you off.
MN: P rofessor
can
you
bri efl y
t el l
me
about
your
opi ni ons on t he TR C , very bri efl y i f you can?
S V:
I di d not support t he TR C - I was asked t o com e and
do i t . Tel l t hem what happened and al l of t hat , but I
obj ect ed t o i t i n pri nci pl e. That you cannot get t rut h
from your oppressor; and t wo, I wi l l not reconci l e
wi t h m y oppressor. I am not aski ng for revenge, but
I wi l l not reconci l e. S o t hose t wo t hi ngs, j ust t rut h
and reconci l i at i on were part of t he deal , so t hat
bl ack peopl e won’t ki l l off t he whi t es i n S out h
Afri ca, t hat ’s i t .
That ’s t he l ong and crude way of
put t i ng i t . Because i f peopl e were gi ven hal f t he
chance t hey woul d at t ack whi t es on a raci a l - I’m
not sayi ng i t woul d have been ri ght , but t hat was t he
m ood of t he peopl e. Because i f you rem em ber
123
duri ng t he C ODES A t al ks, t here was Boi pat ong, do
you t hi nk t he peopl e i n Boi pat ong t oday wi l l say
"com e on brot hers l et ’s em brace one anot her? "
Let ’s say forget about t he chi l dren t hat are l ost ; and
m ot hers t hat are l ost ; and al l of t hat , you t hi nk?
They are hum an bei ngs. They won’t forget i t , so i n
pri nci pl e and ot herwi se, I rej ect TR C . It ’s part of
t he m achi nat i ons of W ashi ngt on; and t he churches:
t h ey
used
Tut u.
You
know,
t he
ot her
very
si gni fi cant t hi ng i s t hat when Nel son was rel eased
from pri son, he st ayed wi t h Tut u t he fi rst day, not
wi t h hi s [ fam i l y] . Tut u was never hi s pol i t i cal
com rade, ri ght ? Then he l eaves t o t he Transvaal - i t
wasn’t Gaut e ng t hen - he fl i es i n a pl ane provi ded
for by Angl o -Am eri can.
And he st ayed i n t he
Transvaal , i n J ohannesburg, wi t h Bobby Godsel l and
t hat crowd, not even wi t h W i nni e, not even wi t h hi s
peopl e. S o what I am sayi ng i s t hat before Nel son
was rel eased t here was a whol e net work of peopl e
t hat were worki ng on t hem and arranged hi s l i fe and
t hat ’s how he behaved, subsequent l y. You know, he
di dn’t even go t o hi s com rades, can you bel i eve
t hat ? You norm al l y, when you com e out at l east you
com e back t o your com rad es, you know t hese are
your peopl e t hat you woul d want t o em brace.
And
com e out ; and because W al l y was rel eased before
hi m he woul dn’t go t o W al l y; he woul dn’t go t o
S owet o. Goes and st ays wi t h hi s - t hey were not hi s
fri ends. But t hose were t he peopl e t hat got hi m out
of pri son and m ade t he deal .
These were t he
deal m akers of S out h Afri ca.
MN: P rofessor, are you bi t t er?
124
S V:
I am bi t t er, I am bi t t er. I don’t deny t hat . I t hi nk
I’m bi t t er t hat so m any years of st ruggl e seem t o
have gone down t he drai n; an d we onl y hope t hat we
can st art i t agai n. But i t i s goi ng t o be such a sl ow
process because I t hi nk by t he ei ght i es we had
reached such a great m om ent um i n t he st ruggl e. And
i f we carri ed on at t hat pace we woul d have had woul dn’t have t o t rade our sou l s t he way we di d i n
Kem pt on P ark. W e woul dn’t have had t o spawn t hi s
creat ure GNU, you know, and t he peopl e woul d have
been i n power, not t he whol e m ot l ey crowd of
peopl e.
MN: P rofessor, i n your spare t i m e now, on a l i ght er not e,
besi des
bei ng
a
P rofessor
and
a
head
of
a
depart m ent , what do you do t o rel ax , what are your
hobbi es?
S V:
I l ove gardeni ng, rose gardeni ng, so I spend a l ot of
m y t i m e rose gardeni ng.
MN: And m usi c -wi se?
S V:
No.
MN: You don’t l i st en t o m usi c?
S V:
I l i st en t o m usi c, but I don’t pl a y m usi c, I can’t pl ay
m usi c.
MN: I m ean your favouri t e m usi c, what ki nd of m usi c?
S V:
I l i ke Indi an cl assi cal , m ai nl y, and I l i ke count ry
m usi c, west ern st yl e.
MN: And who i s your favouri t e aut hor or wri t er?
S V:
S om et hi ng wi t h S hakespeare.
MN: You are not readi ng anyt hi ng el se, t here i s not hi ng?
S V:
I m ean, i f you ask m e t he great est , I st i l l t hi nk I
l ove S hakespeare.
But I st i l l l i ke a l ot of t hi ngs
t hat Arundhat i R oy i s wri t i ng t hese days, so I read a
l ot of hers.
125
MN: If som ebody coul d ask you and say w hat woul d you
recom m end, what do you recom m end?
S V:
To read?
MN: The aut hors, yes.
S V:
W el l , I t hi nk I woul d fi rst need t o know what t he
person’s i nt erest i s. And you see t hi s i s what
happens when you becom e an academ i c, t hat you
becom e t oo preci se about what you recom m end and
al l of t hat .
MN: C an you bri efl y t el l m e som et hi ng t hat I al m ost
forgot . W hat i s your opi ni on about t hi s Afri can
Uni t y t hi ng?
S V:
Afri can Uni on?
MN: Yes, Afri can Uni on.
S V:
I
t hi nk
i t ’s
j ust
a
usel ess,
fut i l e
sel f -servi ng
ex erci se.
M N: And t he NEP AD?
S V:
W el l NEP AD i s j ust t he sam e, NEP AD i s not hi ng
but a st ruct ural adj ust m ent program m e. NEP AD was
not pl anned, di scussed, devi sed by S out h Afri cans
or t he Afri cans, i t was done i n W ashi ngt on.
MN: And what ’s your opi ni on about , or what wa s your
react i on t o t he Ngem a song?
S V:
It was sad t hat Ngem a had t o com e out wi t h t hat
song at t hi s poi nt i n t i m e.
Look a l ot of t hi ngs
Ngem a i s si ngi ng about i n t hat song are t rue, a l ot ,
not absol ut el y, not a hundred percent , but a l ot of
t he t hi ngs ar e t rue. A l ot of i t has t o do wi t h
percept i ons, you know. You can’t say al l Indi ans are
shopkeepers and al l of t hat . You know oppressors.
But at t he sam e t i m e, Ngem a needs t o underst and,
and real i z e, and adm i t t hat t here are raci st s am ongst
t he Afri cans t h em sel ves; t here are raci st s am ongst
126
Indi ans; whi t es; al l over. S o t here i sn’t - raci sm i s
not t he
m onopol y of any one part i cul ar raci al
group. And m y di sappoi nt m ent wi t h t he Ngem as i s
t hat t hey have a rol e t o pl ay i f t hey want t o
cont ri but e t o t he devel op m ent and i m provem ent of
soci et y, t hey shoul d do som et hi ng posi t i ve. Hi s song
was
a
negat i ve
t hi ng,
real l y,
it
has
negat i ve
repercussi ons, t hat ’s t he probl em wi t h t hat . I’m not
denyi ng t hat a l ot of what he i s sayi ng i s t rue
because t here i s st i l l a whol e l ot of raci sm . You t al k
t o st udent s; you t al k t o ordi nary peopl e; t here’s l ot s
of raci sm , none of t hem - and I don’t bl am e a l ot of
peopl e because t he posi t i ons t hey t ake up i s as a
resul t of t hei r own ex peri ences i n l i fe, you see.
How di d t hey com e i n con t act wi t h ot her races. You
know,
for
t hree
hundred
years
we
have
been
separat ed from one anot her? You wal k on t hi s
cam pus for t he past t en -odd years - t hi s i s supposed
t o be an open cam pus, ri ght , you guys have been
here on t hi s cam pus for fi ve, si x years now. Do you
see
Afri cans
and
Indi an
st udent s
arm
in
wal ki ng and si t t i ng t oget her; and t al ki ng?
don’t .
arm ;
You
You see now t hi s i s a probl em t hat I have
wi t h m anagem ent and al l of t hat . W hat are t hey
doi ng
to
bri ng
peopl e
t oget her?
You
know
som et i m es you’ve got t o do t hi s: you’ve got t o
engi neer t hese t hi ngs wi t h a purpose i n m i nd.
Because al t hough we have had our freedom now
al m ost
t en
[ t ownshi ps] :
years,
peopl e
st i l l
l i ve
in
t hei r
Lam ont vi l l e, t he Kwa Mashus, t he
C hat swort hs and R eservoi r Hi l l s, t he re i s very l i t t l e
i nt eract i on am ongst peopl e. They go t o segregat ed
school s; t hey com e here; st i l l not knowi ng t hei r
127
fel l ow bret hren; so t he funct i on i s do som et hi ng
about t hat .
MN: P rofessor, I t hank you very m uch for com i ng, and
t hank you
S V:
agai n.
Thank you. You are wel com e.
INTER VIEW ENDS
128