Session 2 (PAB)
Rapporteurs: Karthik, Kian
Gavin, Larry, Vinit, Petra, Bruce, Smita, Neema, Weiping, Heather
MAIN POINTS (from Kian)
discussion about the definition of PAB vis a vis "global dimensions" and international planning
does this mean ability to work in various places and cultures? or just an "appreciation" of, and
what does that entail?
how to evaluate this?? ref outcomes evaluation, how to know what our students are doing?
discussion about PAB accreditation - should PAB give accreditation to schools in other
countries?
lots of conversation on where the school is, where the students come from, and where they
might end up after
examples on fictitious south dakota school
from PAB: "global dimensions of planning: appreciate of interactions, flows of people and
materials, cultures, and differing approaches to planning across world regions"
Bruce (current member of PBA)
a set of standards from 2006, process took 3 years, committee in PAB, sponsoring orgs AAP,
ACSP, ___?
comments on PAB website… Petra said nothing in here about intl issues
lively discussion on gpeig listserv, up or down vote on comprehensive draft, passed with the
text…
Gavin
earlier stage before final draft, call to interest groups' ideas, sent memo to chris silver (?) to
summarize, some of the language came from those comments
Larry
Nobody has been through review with this new criterion included - what would you have to say
or show to convince accreditation committee that you meet that new standard?
what would you need to see?
What is the desired “output”?
output measures, not just input measures
Vinit
how was it framed in 2000s?
reference 2006: 2 instances of "global"
Petra
Why is this focus on outcome?
Bruce
in new version: emphasis for educational outcomes 80+ to 32 criteria
Bruce
(asked to explain PAB's motivations) accreditation in US under pressure from presidents of
universities and _____.
AAU and university presidents asked for focus on outcomes than inputs.
If PAS was to keep its recognition it had to do this.
don't tell us how to deliver degrees, tell us what you want us to achieve, we'll figure out how
regional accreditors have moved in this direction as well
Larry
since this is new, when schools are reviewed, what do they look for? how will schools show
them?
hunch is schools will be told they have to do this ^ [quote]
Something isn’t there explicitly…. Look underneath
Smita
Learning process between PAB and universities.
will PAB assess this definition?
Larry
No, don't think so
Historically this doesn’t happen
Bruce
Happens indirectly
can think about like technology forcing regulation - community facing mandate - 88 programs
figure out its own way to respond to this - happens at ACSP sessions, journal articles
Faculty share their challenges in ACSP etc.
Neema
finishing report on PAB, interesting to think about what they were looking at
SSR (sub-study report) draft document describes standards, rationale, and paragraph on how to
demonstrate compliance
-> take definition, PAB hired woman who's evaluations are her life, in cornell committee
neema's cornell process took 18 months, 3 units at cornell, endless amounts of training,
completely internalized measures and metrics
Her powerpoint and SSR are so difficult. Her bright colleagues want to tear their hair out when
they see the SSR
how do you create materials that are helpful?? Takes too much time- not helpful
we created these tables and writing for this particular criteria, gave to faculty, write us a
paragraph on how you meet this outcome
core + concentrations + electives, had paragraphs written, compile and put back into main
document/report
discussion on global dimensions:
conscious effort - core curriculum - we live in global world - knowledge, flows, transnational,
networks, materials tech …. link distant regions
important to understand how upstate ny shaped by global economic forces… even as other
forces…. Moved manufacturing to South and China … agriculture and labor to eatable
expanded wine industry
cases from regions to
metrics from each class to describe what they are
several coursers bring cases from outside
methods course meets advanced methods, case study from Buffalo even as reading cases in
south korea, israel, palestine
seminar 12 practitioners research, day long modular workshops allow students to explore global
dimension of planning
list of courses that are for everyone, NRC standards for what is a "international course", then list
7 classes.
NRC standard - 25% or more international - 90% of courses international
then another list of client-based workshop classes
difficult thing, we have programs in Rome, etc.
Larry
but what's the *content* of the class? what to teach students to know or to do - to be proficient
in something like intl planning
global dimensions, or how to plan in other parts of the world
Class meets standard
But what would you have to teach so that students know what they need to know
Neema
Cornell determined not how to plan, but knowledge of the global dimensions - we took the world
"appreciation"
Larry
best practices to prepare students to work in other places besides their own place
what would the school have to teach them about and what to do?? how to be practitioners in
multiple settings and other cultures
Smita
If critical approach to comparative methods - how do people deal with 2nd half of statement, the
"difference approaches" piece
more explicit stance in coursework about comparative technics and how they travel in different
domains of planning
Neema
surveys you undertake, judge student work, what are they writing about, its going in program
assessment - how many students are writing papers…
Changing evaluation methods? (We have to re-grade a sample of the papers)
at cornell, set up committees that include alums & faculty to re-judge everything that has
happened driving everybody insane, it's super painful
Petra
with you all the way until you have to regrade all the papers. Reevaluation of papers is insane
Weiping
bcu, planning program always doing assessment before all this hype
for undergrads - entry survey and exit survey on the same set of questions. But does it work for
graduate students
Larry
would that apply to graduate education?
Weiping
a lot harder
Petra
Growth of cities class - laws of the indies (planning approach)
Bruce
Challenges of outcome assessment
Larry is challenging us
We don’t evaluate that students actually learn
None of us are good at doing that
Larry
And what should the outcome be?
2 parts, (difficult) how do you assess? but (slightly easier) what do you measure?
Smita
We use studios to see how students adapt, how does appreciation travel
Outcomes are assessed
We use studios, they have some courses before hand, but the studio…
… in studio report, could they draw from different places, different geographies, that would help
their client. Are they able to critically draw on other examples that would help their client
Neema
PAB only about "appreciation" not actually about learning to *do*. I have a problem with this.
Our accreditation criteria are very problematic.
Bruce
if there's a school, train them to work in other places, or an understanding of what goes on in
the world that impacts them in their place
Would we want Univ of South Dakota students should be able to plan in any part of world, or
should they be able to understand how global linkages affect Dakota and have some
appreciation
Neema
understanding of global is crucial to american in US cities too! it's "absolutely central" that
american planners understand this
Petra
Hubris - If you don’t have appreciation of how planning happens elsewhere, you think this is the
only one
Weiping
Do we bring students to global scene, or bring global scene to the students. Do the latter first
Weiping
PAB is a minimum, a floor
Bruce
agreed
Vinit
how many smaller programs will look at this, basically go with half course called global
dimension of planning, in the core
it's not about output then, but an easier way of satisfying…
Smita
But even that should be good
Couldn't that be an acceptable form of compliance?
Gavin
change in knowledge??
Larry
did not understand that this is might be the interpretation
2nd thing: you really need to understand intl comparison to understand variations in how
planning can be done, the more different intl context can be understood, the more you
understand, i thought we were preparing people to practice in other places! and that we were
responsible for teaching them
I would expect that you would teach a theory of practice
Smita
the 3rd… premised on too many things, how to access that people are able to plan overseas
whole day laboring over how context matters - are we ready to have generalized principles
Can we assess whether students can practice overseas?
Petra
need to train the phd students - so they can be the next generation can teach these courses in
the future
bruce
if schools have a lot of people from other countries, and are only teaching planning in US, then
there is a mismatch, the accreditation committee should catch that
neema
Nowhere in any document has that ever been mentioned!
Then you are engaging in the colonizing, engaging students in American student
Larry
Reservation planning at South Dakota
Nothing about cross-cultural
Smita
How do we show to PAB that there has been learning of different planning approaches?
what would you look for? (refer to larry's first comment)
that experiential learning that travels with that student
gavin
maybe "understand" and not "appreciate"?
Neema
In Cornell, third party assessment is being pushed (not just students and teachers)
"santa cruz" model of evaluation - pull out examples from students work that attests to that
can't be faculty member, can't be student, maybe student peers or this external way…
bruce
Nobody knows how to do outcomes assessment well. your faculty is looking at what your
producing
Larry
At the end of the semester, I want to know if they can use what they know. I want to see them
use it, give a scenario, evaluate whether they can use what they know.
example - music class, learn a composition then tested for their appreciation of another
composition
helped students develop a theory of practice, of different cultures and context
they can apply what they have learned
whether they can actually then pull it off?
Neema
Are we looking for a “final exam”? Oral exams? Distinction is fuzzy
Are we doing oral exams?
[see them demonstrate this knowledge]
Larry
conditions that mimic practice
Smita
fuzzy… what about studio reviews
so, a fuller description of studio reviews would satisfy spirit of comparative models?
Larry
What’s necessary and what’s sufficient.
Petra
Outcomes assessment might push us to reevaluate
Can we do this when doing a studio on land use elements?
Do we go to a comprehensive exam?
Bruce
Outcome versus output. Not outcomes, outputs!
Smita
Outcomes measures would be nice, but we cannot do it
I would like to know how a student who goes back is doing
if american faculty planning paradigms travel poorly in the world, it's an important thing to
engage with.
We shouldn't shy away from tracking our graduates - whether we are producing effective
practitioners
We have a disproportionate impact overseas, and in this country - i'm sure a lot of our
graduates go overseas and do a lot of strange things
larry
what if the PAB said, we want you to tell us how you’re getting better
if you're dept for its own sake wanted to do better, what would we look at?
……example of northwestern law/mba
Petra
The way to get into Smita’s point is to put into a research agenda.
need to fold it into research agenda - that's the way to evaluate for faculty
a group of people who want to evaluate schools and publish on it
GPA versus how well they do
This is something that departments have to do - that is going to be a killer
Vinit
Were there other fields where it was easier to use outcome measures?
Neema
Written communication etc.
Exit survey + course evaluation + within-class surveys
level of satisfaction with writing was very high
Weiping
values… ethics… difficult to assess
Neema
at cornell, we have a very functioning curriculum committee - on a regular basis evaluates
concentrations, core, doing peer evaluations. find it difficult to believe that depts aren't all the
time evaluating what they are doing
Smita
Relationship to practice is still somewhat nebulous
How it becomes institutionalized?
PAB pressure is one thing
articulate with some ease how a professional is doing
How do students who have work experience change over the course of the program?
Bruce
I don’t think it’s helpful to imagine bad measures and gripe about them - challenge to come up
with good measures. Not regulatory measures, but internally what data would improve
Gavin
a qualitative approach, not a quantitative one, perhaps better
Larry
What about accrediting foreign universities.
we’re suddenly going to invite schools from around the world… really the same criteria? the
same way?
Bruce
you have just set up a straw man… ref meeting in October where options were talked about
Larry
yes, but one option was for schools to be accredited by PAB
Weiping
PAB is quite content neutral - it's who's teaching it that really matters
Neema
example about jason, nairobi, informal
Kenya school that doesn’t teach informality can be accredited?
Weiping
in PAB, "economics" doesn't say anything about formal or informal
Bruce
Has to be taken in context of the school’s mission
Neema
But schools can be crazy
planners working with tribes
Petra
institutional issues can be different
rigid hierarchical
conversation about nairobi & informality, US and south dakota...
Gavin
what major piece are we missing in our own curriculum?
Smita
informality here too
Neema
Consider informality in California - 25%
Vinit
planning is political, getting into accreditation programs feels uncomfortable
Bruce
common way this story plays out
Heather
British experience – we send out students to do damage internationally but damage in our own
backyard also.
Education commission - if programs could tick boxes off
programs wanted to be creative
So commission said, move to outcome assessment.
We moved to outcomes based model though not pushing it in the way it is herePlanning schools have not risen to the occasion, showing no creativity
Accreditation abroad is happening - Botswana, Hong Kong