WHAT IS THE FUTURE OF HAGGERSTON BATHS?
PUBLIC MEETING 8/10/15 7- 9pm
VLC Centre, Whiston Road, London E2
Chair: Mike Coysh, Chair of Save Haggerston Pool
Speakers from the Council:
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Jonathan McShane, Cabinet member for Health, Social Care and Culture
Chris Pritchard, Interim Assistant Director, Property Services
Invited speakers from the floor from Save Haggerston Pool
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Jake Davies, Alan Russell, Danny Russell, Tosin Akinbola,
Invited statements
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Alex Bowring, The Victorian Society
Jim Ferguson, Laburnum Boat Club
Ergel Hassan, YOH (local youth group)
Notes of the Meeting
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David Mitchell, Hackney Council
Liz Hughes, Save Haggerston Pool
Acronyms
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HB = Haggerston Baths
LBH = London Borough of Hackney (Hackney Council)
EoI = Expressions of interest (the first stage of bidding)
Cllr = Councillor [elected member of Hackney Council]
160 people attended the meeting
Chair’s Opening Remarks
The campaign has been running since 2000 when Haggerston Baths (HB) was shut for the stated
reason of the need for c. £333,000 on essential health and safety works.
The Chair noted over the fifteen years had many times thought the campaign was over – but the
fantastic turn out and said that it showed that HB was still a live issue.
There was a £5m grant in 2008 from central government and Council had detailed plans underway,
but due to the financial crisis no further funding and the proposal on the table then was a victim of
that crisis.LBH has resolved to do something about HB, hence the invitation for expressions of
interest earlier in the year. LBH aware of desire for public / community access to the building.
The Chair referred attendees to the Assessment of Significance and the Questionnaire [now closed]
and noted that the results of that would be forwarded to the bidders, and to the decision-makers in
the Council and as such it is worth expressing views.
The Chair advised it was a public meeting specifically for the community to have a say and that
potential bidders, if they were in the room, should declare an interest and speak only as individuals
and not as advocates for any particular scheme.
Speaker: Jake Davies, Save Haggerston Pool
Lived for fifteen years in sight of the pool and has young children. Should be a priority for LBH as it is
a blight on the area. It is not good enough that nothing has been done. LBH should do something
soon as the blight needs to stop.
Has two daughters and whilst Britannia is a nice place LBH should recognise additional need for
swimming facilities. There is a need for a pool as there is an obligation to teach children to swim and
that is not being satisfied. Need pools to teach swimming.
Area has changed and will continue to do so radically and there is a need for a pool and additional
community facilities.
Looking at number of planning applications, number of residents will vastly increase, Britannia will
soon be overwhelmed and the Lido is not for kids.
LBH say there is no business case for a pool, but of 29, there are five EoI’s that include a pool. If
individual commercial organsations are saying they can open and run a swimming pool in the
building that that is the option LBH should be preferring.
Speaker: Cllr Jonathan McShane
Explained is ward councillor as well as being Cabinet member for Health, Social Care and Culture. All
three Haggerston Ward councillors here, introduced Cllrs Barry Buitekant and Ann Munn.
Cllr McShane moved to area in 2000.
2005 Haggerston West and Kingsland development and Bridge Academy happening. Tried to get
pool incorporated into both of these schemes, but it did not happen.
Then carried out a lot of consultation, with Haggerston Pool Campaign and local residents and
others, and what came through very clearly was that people wanted a pool.
Next attempt was the2010/2011 exciting proposal for Healthy Living Centre that had a £5 m grant
and included a gym, pool, café and GP’s surgery at a cost of £25 m. The Financial crisis caused this
scheme to collapse and the cuts to local government funding have only just begun. Had to give back
the grant save a little for some essential works.
The building has since been squatted and they have done some superficial damange. They have now
gone but it has been empty for too long.
Land values have gone up and developers are now attracted to the pool and LBH may not have to
give developers money to carry out the development. There is a notional valuation of £1 on HB due
to the amount it will cost to refurbish the building, due to listed status.
There has been a huge amount of interest, and it will be our job to reflect back to the bidders what
priorities the community identifies, so that hopefully can come up with a scheme which delivers
some of the things that we want as a community, but also means that as a council can stop paying
the £100,000 a year it costs just to keep the building empty.
The building is a blight and it must be dealt with.
Very clear that people’s main priority is a pool, that message well received and well understood. But
the EoI’s also include other uses as well as potential pools, and be good to hear reflections on these
too.
Here to listen……what do you want to see happen and what do you not want to see?
Question / statement from the floor
[Works in local school, not representing officially]. There are well in excess of 3,000 school places
within 200 metres of HB and Britannia is not practical to teach swimming in due to distances,
logisitics and only appropriate for younger kids. In the 1980’s 95% of children left school being able
to swim and now the figure is below 50%. Vital that HB is reborn as a swimming pool. Already have
3000 customers, there must be a business case.
The pool hall is c. 50% of the building, so LBH should approach organisations with a philanthropic
outlook, if the government won’t pay, to restore the pool as it is a vital community asset.
Response: Cllr McShane
Ward Cllrs want to see it as a pool, see there is a need locally for a swimming pool
There are plans, no detail yet, to redevelop the Britannia in the medium term, with a traditional pool
along with a kid’s space.
Agree that the level of change locally in terms of numbers of people is such that developing
Britannia does not mean there would not necessarily still be a demand for a pool on the Haggerston
site.
Question / Comment from the floor
Would like to see a swimming pool.Can LBH confirm how you choose a developer and how do you
avoid a ‘Battersea Power station’ scenario where the lease was given for £5, but remained a blight
because the developer didn’t have the funds to do the work?
Speaker: Chris Pritchard Interim Assistant Director, Property Services
HB is a critical project and he reports to Director of Finance and is charged with making best use of
LBH building assets.
From a property perspective the pool would be very expensive to reinstate and would even then not
function in line with modern standards (eg disabled access) and be very expensive to maintain,
however LBH recognise that it cannot simply be sold.
There are £60 m revenue cuts to LBH budgets over the next two years and Council has to recognise
the limitations it must work within.
Purpose of EoI’s was to get ideas as to what we can do with HB, with the fundamental idea to
preserve the building not to sell it. Repairing the building will be capital intensive and to maintain it
once repaired will require significant revenue. Building must be self-sustaining. Do not want to
reinstate a pool at great expense and then to see the building slowly run down again.
The council members [councillors] have told the property team that they have to come up with a
solution that will save the freehold, but they cannot sell it.
Therefore we are offering 250 year lease, granted at completion of the works with conditions on
how the building can be used. LBH will need to know track record, funding and use of any proposal,
which will need to be realistic. So that it doesn’t get left back on the council, and the community’s
doorstep.
There are 29 EoI’s, some are filled in forms and some have gone into a lot more detail. Some include
swimming pools although there are a lot of different ideas. The viability of proposals will have to
come out in the bids when received. But have a list of possible uses, and there is a list you can take
away
There are a few in there which have a swimming pool, albeit not in the actual pool hall, as i assume
that is not financially viable.
Cannot sell the building freehold as there is a real risk that a speculator would sit on the building
until it fell over. Then, without constraints of being a listed building, will say can build flats.
That’s why we are taking a lease approach which gives much more control and gives ability to place
more terms and conditions on developers, so they have to build what they say they are going to
build
With regard to the possibility of a pool one key question is whether it will be accessible to local
residents and schools or a private facility, we can’t tell from the Expressions of Interest, will have to
wait for detailed bids
Chair’s comment
This is an early stage in the process and there is a chance to influence proceedings.
Speaker: Alan Russell, Save Haggerston Pool
Used to swim at HB every day. How have the costs gone from c. £275,000 [for the health and safety
works] when closed in 2000 to £25million now?
LBH has neglected its role as steward of the building.
Children deprived of learning to swim. Adults swimming for keeping healthy
The pool dates from 1904 and is a public asset.
£1 is giving it away for 250 years.
LBH should reopen a public pool for public swimming in the pool hall as it exists.
Speaker: Danny Russell, Save Haggerston Pool
Between the ages 49 – 58 swam 3,500 miles until broke ankle.
Various pools have shut and does not want to go to the Lido and get out in the cold, or banging legs
on the bottom of the pool at Britannia.
Schools could use a reopened HB. Laburnum Boat Club used Haggerston Pool for canoe test, now
have to take children by bus.
Loves to swim but queues are too long at the Lido as there are too many sun bathers.
It is a health issue and LBH paying for it in other ways.
Speaker: Tosin Akinbola, Save Haggerston Pool
Swam at the pool all the time when young and first memory of family being all together was at HB.
Live very close, sad to see nothing being done.
In the last fifteen years there has been lots of changes, and so many more people, and LBH should
ensure that the building is reused as is still needed.
Question / Statement from the floor
What part of building is listed? Just the outside, or the inside as well? Can it be repaired?
Response Cllr McShane
T his is what makes the project expensive and tricky; the whole building is listed but please the
Assessment of Significance for details of the most / least sensitive parts. Tthe pool hall, the facade,
the boilers and the slipper baths being the most significant.
Question / Statement from the floor
Why are BNP Paribas involved and what part will they play in the final decision?
Response: Chris Pritchard
BNP Paribas are one of several property advisors on LBH’s framework. The Council has Property
Advisors as does not have in house expertise. Chosen to assist with this as LBH impressed by their
understanding regarding what Hackney wants and needs. BNP Paribas have access to developers
that LBH does not know and they will do the preparation and the leg work but evaluation of the bids
is the Council’s responsibility.
Question / Statement from the floor
How will the final decision be made? Would council consider a referendum on the proposals?
Response: Cllr McShane
LBH genuinely wants to get the views of the residents and normally such decisions are taken by
members on the advice of officers. If there was a referendum it would have to be a choice between
viable proposals that are sustainable into the future, although these could have some of the things
people want.
If there is a range of options that do that, then I think we should look at imaginative ways of getting
people’s views.
Question / Statement from the floor
Wants the pool back, but did one of the EoI’s include a music venue?
Response: Chris Pritchard
Yes, yes it did. No more detail was given in the EoI.
Question / Statement from the floor
The community is changing and we accept that, but this is part of a complete destruction of
community infrastructure. Should this not be registered as an Asset of Community Value?
Response: Jake Davies
Save Haggerston Pool looked at registering the pool as an Asset of Community Value, the response
from the Council was that the pool doesn’t qualify because it has been closed for so long. My own
semi-professional view is that this is not sustainable position and if there is a mind within this
meeting to register the building as an Asset of Community Value, then I think we could do that.
But I’m not sure about that as a way forward, my own view is that we should say to the council that
as a community we want the building re-opened as a pool, we understand that is financially difficult,
but the pool is now regarded as an asset, and with imagination it can be done. That is the challenge
that should be put to the developers.
Response Chris Pritchard
Agree that the building was a public swimming pool, and sounds like an Asset of Community Value,
and we spent a lot of time looking into this.
But, central government guidance says that something cannot be an ACV if it has been shut for more
than five years. The Council is responsible for applying the rules, and has to be consistent in its
decision-making, and could be sued for improper procedure. To do different on this building just
because it is a LBH owned building could give rise to problems is in the future someone made an
application that was then refused when it had been granted here.
Question/Statement from the floor
Could the Council not make its own ruling about whether something can be an Asset of Community
Value locally that has been closed for more than 5 years? Even if it was extended to other groups?
Couldn’t the council enter into the spirit of registering as an Asset of Community Value?
Response: Chris Pritchard
Its right that the government guidance says that an Asset of Community Value has to have been
used in the last 5 years. The irony that it was the council that closed the pool 15 years ago is not lost
on me. But we have to have consistency, we have to have a set of rules that we can apply with the
limited resources that we have. We can’t have different rules each time.
Response: Jake Davies
The one asset that has been registered is something that was not owned by the Local Authority. My
own view, is that there needs to be a pool there, and clearly there needs to be development around
the pool. Which is why I don’t think its worth applying for the Asset of Community Value. There is
an option of challenging and I would be prepared to help with this. But I would rather the council
said that we need to do something with this building, we are going to put a pool there, and we’re
going to do around that what we need to do to finance that.
Response: Cllr McShane
Regarding the Asset of Community Value – this doesn’t magic up any money – all it does is give a
period of time when the community can try to come up with the money. Since the council has not
been able to come up with the£25 – 30 million needed in 15 years, don’t think that the community
would be able to do this. All that would happen is to delay anything happening and the building
getting into an even worse state.
Question / Statement from the floor
Used to swim at HB, would not be able to afford to live here if moved here now, even though is a
doctor. Can’t understand why LBH is treating HB as a liability rather than an asset?
Sees restoration of swimming pool as a human right, since part of the legacy to the area from a time
when far less people. Now more people paying more tax. Seeing commercial property for much
greater value being developed, some on council land, and in an area where real estate of great
value. And where is the Olympic legacy? Fails to understand the logic of LBH’s approach. Thought
that there must be some creative and transparent way of getting money into the building.
Question / Statement from the floor
There can be no discussion, all that needs to happen is that LBH should find the money to reinstate
HB.
Question / Statement from the floor
LBH should be more aggressive with potential developers. Concerned that the private investors are
saying that the costs mean that there will need to have flats built to reinstate the pool.
Response: Chris Pritchard
Agree; we are just at the start of this process. This is Hackney’s asset, and I am accountable to the
mayor, who is accountable to you .
I think that housing is the most valuable thing that can be put on that site, though someone may
come up with a better idea.
Can assure you that we are not giving it away.
Question / Statement from the floor
If LBH are going to sell the building for 250 years for £1, what controls will there be?
Response: Chris Pritchard
One of the reasons we are doing this now, is that the values have gone up. I was delighted when I
saw that it had technically become an asset.
No intention of selling it for £1, but that was the valuation. It is a technical figure based on the value
of what can be put on the site, against the costs of repairing the building.
Looking for good ideas in the EoIs from developers who have financial backing, and track record, and
can also sign up to the conditions on our lease.
It is not possible to control everything but there will be controls in the lease. Ultimately a landlord
can take back premises if there are significant breaches of the terms of a lease.
Statement By The Victorian Society (Alex Bowring)
The Society is taking a great interest in the restoration of HB and it has been in their top ten of
endangered buildings. To properly restore HB the historic use, a pool, has to be restored.
Question / Statement by Laburnum Boat Club (Jim Armstrong)
Children need access to local affordable physical education to encouraged to get away from screens
etc. Too many school children cannot swim at all. LBH should take the holistic view; what price on
the physical and mental health of children? So please, public pool, public access.
Question / Statement James Westcott, Vicar of Haggerston
Seen that lots of Victorian pubs have closed locally, but he has managed keep open an old Victorian
building for the last twenty years, its just about waterproof, as many people here will know. There
are a lot of people interested in helping keep buildings open for today and tomorrow for the
purpose for which they were built.
Question/Statement By YOH (Youth Group) (Ergel Hassan)
Grew up on local estate, the area has changed with much more housing but there is less money for
supervised space for children and young people. Community centres now have to make money and
that should not be the case
How will LBH prioritise bids? Will those that have a pool with public access get be prioritised? Will
you ensure that this pool does not become a developers goldmine, where they make lots of money
and we get nothing?
Question / Statement from the floor
Lived in the area whole life, and learnt to swim in the pool. With friends, spent leisure time, and
stayed healthy at Haggerston Pool. Now has son who is seven, who is not having that opportunity.
Need a pool back here as Britannia not good for swimming. Haggerston is being developed so every
piece of land is used. Nothing left for community. Raising funds is a priority. Why can’t GLL (or
another provider) take over the pool?
Response: Cllr McShane
GLL, or Better as they are now called, have not made an EoI to run the pool. They may be interested
in doing so if LBH put the money in first to refurbish it. Likely that other leisure providers would
come to similar decisions looking at the 25/30 million pounds it would take to restore it.
Question / Statement from the floor
Would it be possible to open part HB?
Various figures have been given for the cost of refurbishment but which is the real one? £25 million
is being quoted here, but the figure that went to the developers is £15 million?
How much could the Victorian Society contribute?
Response; Chris Pritchard
On the question of funding, there are 2 parts to this, the capital and the revenue funding. The
capital needed is £25 to £30 million but it is also important to see how the building will be kept open
year after year.
£25million comes from a survey is from a year ago, for reinstating the pool and everything.
£15million is just for the fabric of the building, that is just to get the building structurally safe,
waterproof, safe to inhabit.
It is not possible to reopen just part of the building because of the destruction of the fabric of the
building. There has been water pouring through the roof for years, it is running down the stairs and
that is doing the damage.
Question / Statement from the floor
Where is the Olympic legacy? The pool is part of the heritage of Haggerston and LBH is not being
creative about bringing it back into use. LBH has spent £17 m on a Pavillion at Hackney Marshes and
other vanity projects and perhaps that money should have been spent on HB instead. Seen so much
local heritage destroyed, would like to see council fighting more on behalf of the community.
Response: Cllr McShane
The pavilion at Hackney Marshes is part of the borough’s Olympic legacy and various organisations
such as the FA and RFU have put substantial sums into it. It is not a vanity project to provide
changing facilities for women and for disabled people for example and LBH is proud of this new
facility. There are many calls on the Council’s limited resources - for example Hackney needs two
new secondary schools - and it needs to prioritise. We have been put in this situation because the
government has cut our money in half, and will cut it even more. So we’re in a really difficult
situation. We don’t have the capital to deliver this project, and we realise something needs to be
done as quickly as possible so we are trying to find a way that gives people as much of what they
want as possible, but we won’t be able to please everyone.
Question / Statement from the floor
Would like to see Cllrs fighting for the pool.
Next Steps and how will a pool be prioritised
There are a number of organisations proposing developments with pools. We have asked all the 29
organisations to put their bids forward fully costed. Will be very interested to see the bids with pool,
to see how work financially and how affordable and accessible they will be for local community.
Some residents want to know how will affect neighbourhood, so there will be specific meetings with
local neighbourhood groups.