Lojain Ibrahim: I am honored to have Dr. Salima Ikram here with me today.
Salima Ikram: Thank you very much, it’s a delight.
Lojain Ibrahim: First of all, I'd like to ask you to please introduce yourself to those
you do not know who Dr. Salima Ikram is.
Salima Ikram: Umm, my name is Dr. Salima Ikram. I am a professor of Egyptology at
The American University in Cairo. I have worked and lived in Egypt for 19 years, but
I have been coming here since I was eight. I have also worked in the Egyptian
Museum and at many sites all along the Nile Valley umm as an excavator particularly
working on human and animal remains, funery archeology, and also doing survey on
rock art in the Western Desert.
Lojain Ibrahim: How were things before the revolution, the 30 years of the ruling of
Hosney Mubarak, were antiquities being stolen?
Salima Ikram: Well, actually, yes, Egypt's antiquities have been stolen almost since
they were put into the ground; even the ancient Egyptians stole antiquities. And
although in the past years with Hosney Mubarak antiquities were stolen frequently it
was hushed up and umm, but I mean there wasn’t a huge scale of robbing. I would say
also that antiquities started to be stolen increasingly in the past say 15 to 20 years as
Egyptian art became increasingly popular; both in the West as well as in the East
because now the Gulf States are also collecting.
Lojain Ibrahim: So with the antiquities being stolen, what were your efforts to like try
to protect or maintain these antiquities?
Salima Ikram: Umm, personally I have not made too many efforts because of course
this is the role of the Egyptian Antiquity Service or Supreme Council of Antiquities.
On a personal level, what I have done is whenever there have been things that have
been suspicious I have reported them, I have helped put together lists and circulated
them amongst umm primarily people in the West so that in case any object is leaving
Egypt we have a sense of what-where it might go, how to stop it, umm I have been
allowed to have the privilege of doing some supportive work for the Supreme Council
of Antiquities because Dr. Zahi Hawass has been very active in trying to prevent
ummm, well, to to retrieve antiquities that have gone abroad. So, umm, like there's a
mask in Saint Louis Art Museum, which had gone abroad illegally some time in the
80s. We're going to try and argue to get that returned to Egypt; something that one has
done some contributions on. So, the personal work is more awareness based both here
and abroad as to why one should not dig up antiquities, why one should not sell
antiquities, and most importantly why won't you not buy antiquities.
Lojain Ibrahim: So where were you at the time of the revolution?
Salima Ikram: Well on the 25th I was excavating in Luxor. And then on the 29th, I
came back to Cairo, but every day I was in touch with people in Cairo; luckily I still
had the land lines numbers. But it was very worrying because we were not here and
things were happening and a friend of mine, some people were journalists as well as
other friends were saying you know "the NDP's on fire" and of course all of us
Egyptologists were terribly worried about the Egyptian Museum because it's next
door. And you know, actually the building the NDP is on used to be the land
belonging to the antiquities and the museum. They did sell it legally. And the NDP
was built there. But it is a great chain because I think that that land should go back to
belonging to the Egyptian Museum and an extension to the museum be constructed
there. But, umm, it was very difficult being in Luxor while all that activity was taking
place in Cairo. And when the looting of the Museum took place we were fairly
hysterical and Dr. Zahi was reassuring saying "everything's fine, it's all under
control". And it was also tremendous to hear about that amazing human chain of
people protecting the museum.
Lojain Ibrahim: Yes. And this brings us to our next question. The protestors is Tahrir
who formed the human shield around the Egyptian Museum, umm, to what extent did
you think it was helpful to protect the antiquities there? And what would you like to
say to the youth who stood and protected the museum?
Salima Ikram: I have never been so proud in my life, I have to say. That moment for
me is something I treasure. And it was also not just there, but also at some of the sites
in Egypt later on. The villagers and particularly the young ones were going and
protecting the magazines. I am hoping, whatever else happens in this revolution, I am
really hoping that Egyptian youth start paying attention to their own culture, get
involved with their own culture, and value it more or at least as much as the
Westerners do; because having Egyptians who are properly trained and interested the
Antiquity Service will be great. But also just as citizens, of Egypt, to know your
antiquities, to have some idea about your past and to be engaged in it. But for having
those kids, and you know grownups standing there, holding back the tide, was, even
now, a very emotional and fulfilling reward.
Lojain Ibrahim: Emm, overall, would you say the revolution has a negative impact on
the antiquities?
Salima Ikram: Yes, very briefly, what happened was that the police left. Had the
police not left, it would be fine. But the disappearance of the police; which is also a
failure on the government's part as well as the army's part meant that the antiquities
were put at risk. And I think that no government regardless of what its political
agenda is, should sacrifice national heritage, on their own, to alter their personal
game. And I think that is appalling.
Lojain Ibrahim: It is said that thieves who went into the Egyptian Museum knew
exactly what they want to steal. Would you support this claim?
Salima Ikram: I actually think that maybe there was more than one group of thieves
working. I think there was one group that had decided to go and break in and break
the vetriens and to smash things and take the gold. I think that perhaps it is quite
possible that, although I have no proof for this, but circumstantial evidence does
indicate that there was a second group taking advantage of this moment and they ran
off with some objects. However, objects have been returned to the museum, umm, not
necessarily voluntarily. There was last five, we have heard were being sold in Khan
Khalili and they have been gained back and the gang has been tracked to Bolaq El
Dakror and may be more objects will come. But it is, just by looking at the pattern of
the looting, it does seem that there was a looting group and then a second group said
"oh, during this time let's take what we want to sell elsewhere". So, but that again is
my own version of events; which has some evidence but no proof.
Lojain Ibrahim: Umm, what do you think of the protests that took place like asking
Zahi Hawass to step down and resign from being the Minister of Antiquities?
Salima Ikram: Well, as you know, today he has been reappointed and is Minister of
Antiquities.
Lojain Ibrahim: So you were against the protests? You wanted Zahi Hawass to
continue…?
Salima Ikram: I, I felt that it is not my place to see who is or who is not in charge of
the SCA. However, I think that the protesters some of what they were claiming was
completely wrong. I do not think that Dr. Hawass steals antiquities and I don’t think
he sells antiquities. So a lot of the protests, some of the protests were about that,
which I think is unfounded. Other protests were people wanted jobs. How are you
going to, you know, if you don’t have the money or the positions and they don’t have
quiet the necessary training you can't give jobs. But he still did give jobs to people. So
you know, the rationale behind the protests I found completely unconvincing. Umm,
so, here we are. And there are things one could argue with about Dr. Hawass and his
policies but that is not what the protesters were protesting about.
Lojain Ibrahim: Umm, what do you think should be done to secure the Egyptian
Museum?
Salima Ikram: Well, I think one think one thing would be would be to have a viable
police force that is not going to leave and run away because that's the problem. And
you don’t expect because there are three different kind of police. Ya'ny you have the
normal police and you have the tourist police and you're also supposed to have
museum guards, but I think for archeological sites you have it but may be not the
museum. But everyone left. The tourist police left, the antiquities police left, khalas!
So, one thing is, I think the museum is made out of really good material, umm, which
can withstand a lot of shock and fire. I think that the area around the museum may be
there should be more open space around it, umm, and fewer trees to some extent
because of course that means that A) people can't hide behind the trees and B) also
umm, if there is fire again, god forbid, the museum will have a cobnut sanitaria
around it which will enable us to manage it. The museum did have very good up to
date cameras because as you remember when the camera equipment for the Mohamed
Khalil Museum. Mohamed Khalil Museum? Ya. The art museum where the…
Lojain Ibrahim: The painting?
Salima Ikram: Ya, the painting was taken. Ya, well there the the cameras weren’t
working. And after that happened, all museums in Egypt they went through a very
thorough trial. In fact the Nubian Museum was shut for two days till they got all the
cameras working. So the museum in Tahrir had up to date cameras. Why the cameras
do not seem to have recorded sufficient amount of information is a very good question
cause they were functional.
Lojain Ibrahim: What are the estimations of the number of antiquities that were
stolen?
Salima Ikram: From the Egyptian Museum, the Egyptian Museum registered group
and director of the museum have put together I think it was ultimately when they
found all the bits and pieces, approximately I think 52 were missing which is actually
nothing compared to what happened in Iraq where the raids were organized and
planned by antiquity thieves. It was horrible. There were hundreds and thousands and
they smashed a lot that was not replacable. Here, alhamdulelah, most of the things
that were damaged could be, umm, recovered and put together and restored. There are
some very important pieces missing; one or two Tut Ankh Amun objects which might
have been damaged beyond repair because they had gold leaf on them. The thieves
said "ah, there's gold." They took it. They were carrying it around, it's too light, they
break it, it's wood, they scrunch it up and scream and-in anger and that's the end.
There are other pieces down stairs though, only one vetrein, major vetrein down stairs
seems to have been violated. Those objects all date to rein of King Akhnaton of the
Amarna period and his the art work of this time is very unique. And I don’t know if
we will get those back but I very much hope we do. But those are things people
collect very actively.
Lojain Ibrahim: Overall would you say you're optimistic about the future of
antiquities in Egypt and the new ministry?
Salima Ikram: Inshalla, it is always best to be optimistic. But I mean we are really not
having change, umm, it is the same ministry and I know that, I am sure that now that
Dr. Hawass is back in charge, he will do his best to mobilize things. The big hopes is
one of the problems that happened with the antiquities is not just the museum, it's the
sites. Most of the sites south of Cairo were relatively safe. However, some of them
were violated to a small extent, there were some trenching in Abydos, some holes
being dug for the most part alhamdulelah everything's okay. But one of the biggest
problems that happened throughout the country was appropriation of antiquities' land,
illegally. Now generally the police are patrolling. So, you're not going to sneak out in
the middle of the night and put, make your wall around some place that is already
registered antiquity site. And many people have done that in Dahshour, they've put up
a cemetery. So they built all the little sonatas but no one's probably buried there and
they put a wall around it. So now I am hoping Dr. Hawass will get these cemeteries
moved out, get the walls put back to where they belong because it's a real problem
umm, with people population increases there's no space to go especially if you're a
farmer you don't wanna build on the agriculture land so the only place to go is the
desert but the desert is antiquities land; Giza, Saqqara, Abo Sir area. So what are you
gonna do? They want to take it over because unlike The Garnawis in Luxor who have
a relationship with the antiquities, in the old days they sold it, nowadays they're
guides to it or they you know make replicas or they engage with the tourists in some
way and so they see some benefit to them. So for the people in the Memphite areas,
there's no benefit. Until this is something that I hope, at least the land that has been
taken can be reclaimed by the antiquities service. But it should also be remembered in
the past five years there has been many antiquity sites in other parts of Egypt where
people have taken the land and nothing has been done.
Lojain Ibrahim: Okay. Thank you professor for your time.
Salima Ikram: You're welcome. And I mean, inshallah, we are looking forward to a
new moment in history of Egyptian antiquities if the youth of Egypt continue to be
engaged, cause that is where the difference will lie.
Lojain Ibrahim: Let's hope for that. Thank you.
Salima Ikram: You're welcome.