HEAT TREATING
JUNE 2010
UNCONFIRMED MINUTES
JUNE 22 – 24, 2010
GRAND COPTHORNE WATERFRONT HOTEL
SINGAPORE
These minutes are not final until confirmed by the Task Group in writing or by vote at a subsequent
meeting. Information herein does not constitute a communication or recommendation from the
Task Group and shall not be considered as such by any agency.
MONDAY, JUNE 21 TO THURSDAY, JUNE 24, 2010
1.0
OPENING COMMENTS - CLOSED
1.1
Call to Order / Quorum Check
The Heat Treat Task Group (HT) was called to order at 9:00 a.m. on 21-Jun-10. The HT Staff and
Subscriber participants were introduced.
It was verified that only SUBSCRIBER MEMBERS were in attendance during the closed portion of
the meeting.
A quorum was established with the following representatives in attendance:
Subscriber Members/Participants Present (* Indicates Voting Member)
NAME
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
Silvia
Bruce
Frank
David
Debashis
Mark
Robert
Holger
YS
Serge
William
Doug
Mitch
Hongli
Eddy
Sunder
S. Roaidi
Simon
William
Jeffrey
Tomasz
ChiChong
Grzegorz
Hong
Ling
COMPANY NAME
Baeza
Brownfield
Brungs
Damasauskas
Dutta
Emerson
Faticanti
Krueger
Ku
Labbe
Macias
Matson
Nelson
Niu
Pham
Rajan
Rokik
Scott
Stewart
Thyssen
Wojtasik
Wong
Wryk
Xia
Yap
Vought Aircraft Industries, Inc.
Lockheed Martin
MTU Aero Engines GmbH
Spirit Aerosystems, Inc.
Goodrich Corporation
Rolls Royce Corporation
Textron Systems
Airbus
Honeywell Aerospace
Heroux Devtek, Inc.
Goodrich Corporation
The Boeing Company
Cessna Aircraft Company
Goodrich Corporation
Northrop Grumman Corporation
Raytheon Corporation
GE International Inc.
BAE Systems - Air Systems
Bombardier, Inc.
GE Aviation
Honeywell Aerospace
Rolls-Royce Singapore Pte Ltd.
Goodrich Corporation
Rolls-Royce Asia
The Boeing Company
1
Chairperson
Vice Chairperson
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JUNE 2010
Other Members/Participants Present (* Indicates Voting Member)
NAME
*
*
Michael
Enoch
Johanna
Peter NeeLam
R.
Kazuki
G.G.
Daitary
Mayumi
Wilfried
COMPANY NAME
Brandt
Lau
Lisa
Loh
Madhavan
Miyabe
Sathyanarayana
Sethi
Shoji
Weber
Alcoa, Inc.
Hong Kong Productivity Council
Continental and Quality Heat Treating
Doxon Engineering Pte Ltd
Hindustan Aeronautics & TD, Engine Division India
Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Ltd.
Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd Aircraft Division India
Hindustan Aeronautics Limited Foundry & Forge Division India
Ishikawajima-Harima Heavy Industries Co
PFW Aerospace AG
PRI Staff Present
Jeremy
Marcel
Liu
Christine
Kenichi
2.0
Aston
Cuperman
Le
Sanz
Fujisawa
HEAT TREATING TASK GROUP TUTORIAL – CLOSED
The meeting began with a reading of the Nadcap Code of Ethics and Conflict of Interest and AntiTrust Policy.
The Chair reminded the Task Group of the following:
The feedback form for meeting facilitation will be done as a group at the end of the meeting. One
microphone is available for anyone who would like to use it. Speak clearly, do not dismiss people’s
opinions, emotional and off topics should be avoided.
A presentation was given on Task Group leadership, support staff, eAuditNet Process in detail
regarding each step required, operational requirements list (Review of Operational Requirements)NIP (Nadcap Internal Procedure), NTGOP (Nadcap Task Group Operating Procedure), NOP
(Nadcap Operating Procedures), and Quality Manual AS7003, procedural hierarchy, procedure
map, important procedures, group history, scope, mandates, NMC metrics (mandating
Subscribers), group actions, current activities, meetings, and additional available information.
3.0
RAIL REVIEW - CLOSED
The RAIL was reviewed, and the progress on closing prior meeting action items was reviewed.
The RAIL document can be found at: www.eAuditNet.com under Documents / Public Documents /
Heat Treating.
The Task Group was reminded that the RAIL is updated on www.eAuditNet.com on the 15th of
every month.
It was agreed that PRI will send reminders to the Task Group when the RAIL is updated.
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ACTION ITEM : Lisa Zajacs to send reminders to the Task Group when the RAIL is updated. (DUE
DATE: 18-Oct-10)
4.0
AUDIT FAILURE ANALYSIS AND VCA REPORT OUT – CLOSED
The Staff Engineers presented to the Task Group the number of VCA audits being carried out per
quarter.
The number of VCA audits for the second quarter 2010 was 5 of which 1 audit failed. This was a
reduction from the previous quarter when 12 VCA audits with 5 audits failing were performed.
The Task Group agreed that the criteria for VCA audits and the level of VCA audits was
acceptable.
The Task Group asked the Staff Engineers for further analysis of the data to be included for the
October 2010 meeting.
The analysis shall include the number of audits accredited per quarter, the previous audits
accreditation length for the VCA audits, and identification whether the initial audits are true initial
audits or re-entry initial audits.
ACTION ITEM: Staff Engineers to ensure the presented data includes the number of audits accredited per
quarter, the previous audits accreditation length for the VCA audits, and identification whether the initial
audits are true initial audits or re-entry initial audits. (DUE DATE: 18-Oct-10)
5.0
LAPSED SUPPLIER ACCREDITATIONS – CLOSED
The Staff Engineers presented to the Task Group the Suppliers who had lapsed accreditation.
A discussion was held regarding actions that should be taken when a Supplier is not accredited
before their accreditation expires, when this is partly due to a Supplier failing then successfully
appealing the failure.
It was agreed that the Staff Engineers would check if this is covered in Nadcap procedures. If not, a
Sub-Team of David Damasauskas and Marcel Cuperman will create a proposal to be presented to
the Task Group at the October 2010 meeting.
ACTION ITEM: Staff Engineer to work with David Damasauskas to create a proposal of how to handle the
situation where a Supplier is not re-accredited before their accreditation expires, when this is partly due to a
Supplier failing the audit then successfully appealing the failure. (DUE DATE: 18-Oct-10)
6.0
STAFF ENGINEER DELEGATION – CLOSED
Motion made by Jeff Thyssen & seconded by Mark Emerson to continue to delegate Jerry Aston.
Motion Passed
Motion made by Mitch Nelson & seconded by Jeff Thyssen to continue to delegate Rob Hoeth.
Motion Passed
Motion made by Jeff Thyssen & seconded by Mitch Nelson to continue to delegate Marcel
Cuperman. Motion Passed
Motion made by Jeff Thyssen & seconded by Mitch Nelson to continue to delegate Anne Allen.
Motion Passed
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7.0
AUDITOR CONSISTENCY – CLOSED
The Staff Engineers presented to the Task Group where there had been a change from the
previous audit of +/- 5 NCRs or greater.
From the review, four Auditors were highlighted as being involved in a high number of these audits.
The Task Group Subscribers recommended to include these Auditors in their oversight audits
where possible, and to feedback comments to the Staff Engineers on their auditing performance
and style.
The Staff Engineers also presented data showing (1) the number of audits an Auditor had carried
out since October 2009, and (2) the average number of NCRs per audit has increased. The spread
of NCRs among Auditors was 7 average to 3 average, with the mean being 5 average.
Discussions were held by the Task Group into possible reasons for this, and they included:
1) Natural Auditor variation.
2) Not following and asking all checklist questions.
3) How in depth an Auditor goes.
Discussion amongst those Subscribers who have had NUCAP audits, indicated that the Nadcap
audit process is more focused than Subscriber audits.
It was agreed that this would be the theme of Auditor training.
Top ten checklist questions to be tracked,
As part of Auditor Consistency, the Task Group had reviewed the checklist and identified ten
questions that should always be asked during an audit. If an NCR is raised during a subsequent
audit, then this may show that the Auditor did not fully review this question at the previous audit.
This would then require investigation by the Staff Engineer to determine the reasons for this. It is
hoped by tracking this information that weaknesses in the Auditor base can be identified.
ACTION ITEM: Staff Engineers to review audits where NCRs are raised against the top ten questions,
determine the causes and present the data at the October 2010 meeting. (DUE DATE: 18-Oct-10)
8.0
AUDITOR OBSERVATION – CLOSED
Since the last Nadcap meeting, 10 Auditor observations have been carried out by Subscribers on
Auditors.
In general, the Subscriber observers indentified that the Auditors performed a good, in-depth audit.
There were opportunities for improvement, and this will be part of the Auditor Training.
This information will again be presented at the October meeting.
ACTION ITEM: Staff Engineers to present Auditor observation feedback at October 2010 meeting. (DUE
DATE: 18-Oct-10)
9.0
COMPARISON CHARTS FOR CONDUCTIVITY TESTING – OPEN
A concern was raised during a Nadcap audit that the conductivity tables used when testing
aluminum did not match the conductivity meter used for the test. It seems that no tables have been
raised for the ‘newest’ conductivity meters.
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Boeing reported that they were working with the conductivity meter manufacturer for Boeing parts.
There were no comments from other Subscribers.
Task Group highlighted this to the Suppliers and warned it may affect readings on thin gauge
material where correction factors are needed.
10.0
AUDITOR TRAINING - CLOSED
The Sub-Team debriefed the proposed Auditor training agenda.
The Auditor training in October will focus on Auditor Consistency.
The Sub-Team is to create training presentations.
ACTION ITEM : Rob Hoeth to work with Sub-Team to produce presentations for Auditor Training. (DUE
DATE: 18-Oct-2010)
11.0
APPEAL ANALYSIS – CLOSED
No appeals since February meeting.
12.0
NON SUSTAINING CORRECTIVE ACTION – CLOSED
A presentation was given to the Task Group detailing that the current Heat Treating Task Group
practice is to include the two prior audits to count non-sustaining NCRs whereas most other Task
Groups include only the one most prior audit.
It has been requested that Heat Treating standardize with the rest of the Task Groups.
After discussion it was agreed that once the NOPs have been modified to reflect the standard
practice, then the Heat Treating Task Group would comply.
13.0
MEMORANDUM OF UNDERSTANDING (MOU) WITH MTL
The Materials Testing Laboratories (MTL) Task Group has requested that the MOU is updated with
the Heat Treating Task Group for Room Temperature Tensile Testing and Metallography.
Mitch Nelson and Mark Emerson will be the Heat Treating representatives on the Sub-Team to
work this.
ACTION ITEM : Mitch Nelson and Mark Emerson to work on Sub-Team with MTL to create MOUs. (DUE
DATE: 18-Oct-2010)
14.0
CLASSIFICATION OF FORGINGS AND CASTINGS – CLOSED
The Heat Treating Subscribers have produced a table for inclusion in the Heat Treating Auditor
Handbook, which shows if the Subscribers consider Forgings and Castings has raw material or
parts.
This will allow the Auditors to know if a Supplier has classified their furnaces correctly.
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ACTION ITEM: Staff Engineers to update the Heat Treating Auditor Handbook. (DUE DATE: 31-Oct-2010)
15.0
MINUTES – OPEN
The minutes from the February 2010 meeting were read and accepted.
16.0
CLOSED MEETING DEBRIEF – OPEN
Doug Matson (Chair), debriefed the topics discussed during the closed meeting. See closed items
in the minutes for details of the debriefing.
17.0
NMC METRICS – OPEN
The NMC metrics for May 2010 were shown to the Task Group.
All the metrics for Heat Treatment were Green and acceptable.
18.0
AC7102 CHECKLIST BALLOT – OPEN
All of the ballot comments were reviewed in the open meeting by the Task Group. All comments
were either agreed or rejected and the necessary changes made. The results were recorded on the
b-frm-03 for this checklist ballot.
The Checklist will now be balloted as an Affirmation ballot for approval and discussed at the
October meeting.
ACTION ITEM : Staff Engineer to ballot AC7102 checklist as an Affirmation ballot.(DUE DATE: 18-Oct2010)
19.0
AC7102/5 CHECKLIST BALLOT – OPEN
All the ballot comments were reviewed in the open meeting by the Task Group. All comments were
either agreed or rejected and the necessary changes made. The results were recorded on the bfrm-03 for this checklist ballot.
During the meeting, Mitch Nelson agreed to review and reformat the AC7102/5 checklist. To
standardize the terminology with the ASTM specifications with regards to ‘standardization’ and
‘verification’ of the hardness machines. This will be presented at the October 2010 meeting. The
AC7102/5 checklist will be held until all modifications are brought by Mitch Nelson to the October
meeting.
It was also agreed that the definition of where and how to calculate hardness machine error would
be removed from AC7102/5, and added to the Auditor Handbook. Mitch Nelson agreed to supply
the text for the Auditor Handbook.
ACTION ITEM: Mitch Nelson to supply recommendations for revision to the AC7102/5 checklist. (DUE
DATE: 18-Oct-2010)
ACTION ITEM: Mitch Nelson to supply wording for how and where to calculate hardness machine error,
for inclusion in the Auditor Handbook. (DUE DATE: 31-Oct-2010)
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20.0
AUDITOR ADVISORIES – OPEN
The four Auditor Advisories raised since the February 2010 meeting were reviewed. The Auditor
Advisories will be added to the Auditor Handbook.
ACTION ITEM: Staff Engineer to add to Auditor Handbook. (DUE DATE: 31-Jul-10)
21.0
PLANNING AND OPERATIONS DEBRIEF – OPEN
Doug Matson debriefed the Task Group on the Planning and Operations meeting.
It was reported the following decisions have been made:
1) Closing NCRs by an Auditor on site is to be stopped.
2) Prior to an audit, when a Supplier sends their procedures to the Auditor, if the Supplier
subsequently makes changes to those procedures, they will have to inform the Auditor of the
changes.
3) A survey was sent to the Task Group chairs to get their feedback on “Checklist-on-Demand”.
4) A brief presentation was given by Doug Matson on Auditor consistency. This topic was agreed
to be transferred to an NMC Standardization Committee.
22.0
HTSTSTG DEBRIEF – OPEN
Due to the low number of Suppliers attending the meeting, no discussions were held.
23.0
SUPPLIER ALLOCATION LIST – CLOSED
The Supplier allocation list for Subscriber reviewers was completed. This list will be forwarded by
the Staff Engineers to the Task Group Subscribers.
ACTION ITEM: Staff Engineers to forward Supplier Allocation listing to the Task Group Subscribers. (DUE
DATE: 31-Jul-10)
24.0
MEETING AGENDA FOR OCTOBER 2010 – CLOSED
The following items will be included in the meeting agenda for October 2010.
1) Auditor consistency.
2) AC7102/5 Hardness Testing checklist review.
3) AC7102/6 HIP checklist review.
4) SE Delegation.
Draft agenda to be sent to all Task Group Subscribers, requesting further agenda items.
ACTION ITEM: Staff Engineer to send draft agenda to Subscribers requesting further agenda items. (DUE
DATE: 14-Jul-10)
25.0
AUDITOR CONSISTENCY STANDARDISATION SUB-TEAM DEBRIEF – CLOSED
Jeff Thyssen gave a debriefing of the meeting held by the NMC Standardization Committee looking
into Auditor Consistency.
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At the present time, Nadcap does not have a way of measuring Auditor consistency. There is also
no measure for comparing the Auditor consistency among Task Groups.
The way consistency is being approached at this time is through regular training of the Auditors,
but we have no measure of how successful this is.
The Standardization Sub-Team will start working on this, and will start by trying to determine the
root cause of the variation between Auditors.
26.0
ANY OTHER BUSINESS – CLOSED
Task Group requested to be informed by email when there is a new Auditor or when an Auditor
leaves.
ACTION ITEM : Staff Engineer to email Task Group Subscribers when a new Auditor is hired, or when an
Auditor leaves.(DUE DATE: 18-Oct-2010)
Silvia Baeza has translated AC7102 into Spanish. This version of the checklist will be reviewed by
Will Macias and agreed for content. The checklist will then be posted on www.eAuditNet.com.
ACTION ITEM: Will Macias to review and agree to the Spanish translation of AC7102 checklist. (DUE
DATE: 18-Oct-2010)
The Task Group was asked if there should be an accreditation program for Sub contract Pyrometry
calibration providers. The following answer was given:
This topic was discussed five years ago at the Task Group meetings. The Task Group
does not see any changes to alter the decision, there is no value added for an
accreditation program.
A question from a Supplier was reviewed. This was regarding inclusion of additional specifications
covering portable hardness testers. The Task Group gave the following answer:
The Task Group believes that this is a Subscriber Engineering decision. This is outside the
Task Groups authority, and is not a Nadcap decision.
ADJOURNMENT – 24-Oct-2010 – Meeting was adjourned at 12:15 p.m.
Minutes Prepared by: Jerry Aston (jerry.aston@pri-europe.org.uk)
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***** For PRI Staff use only: ******
Are procedural/form changes required based on changes/actions approved
during this meeting? (select one)
YES*
NO
*If yes, the following information is required:
Documents requiring
revision:
Who is responsible:
Auditor Handbook
M Cuperman
Due date:
31-Oct-2010
9