Project Document for:
The Charnwood Great War Centenary Project
In partnership with
Loughborough Public Library
The Great War Debate:
‘Haig – has history been fair?’
Thursday 7th May 2015, 7.30-9.30
Loughborough Library,
Granby Street, Loughborough, Leics, LE11 3DZ
Tickets: £3 under 18’s free from Loughborough Library
Or order at LoughboroughLibrary@leics.gov.uk 0116 3052420
The Imperial War Museum writes: ‘Field Marshal Sir Douglas Haig was Commander-in-Chief of the British
Expeditionary Force from December 1915 until the end of the war. Opinion about Haig remains sharply
divided. Much admired by his men at the time, he has recently been criticised as a ‘butcher’ and ‘bungler’. But
modern scholarship shows he was an able commander who played a key role in achieving victory in 1918.’
Acting on this statement from the IWM above, the motion will be stated by the Chair “This house proposes
that Haig was a butcher”. Rather than setting the parameters of the debate to be too broad allowing debaters
to cherry-pick facts which suit, we ask debaters to make special reference to the first battle of Loos in 2015 in
which the local Leicester Tigers were heavily committed.
Chair: Bill Brookman
Proposer: Dr. Neil Faulkner
Proposer-seconder: Dr. Ray Sutton MA, PhD
Opposer: Dr. Matthew S. Seligmann MA, DPhil,
Opposer-seconder: Michael Woods MA
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The proposed argument for The Motion:
Dr. Neil Faulkner’s argument would centre on Historian Alan Clarke’s view of lions led by donkeys. The point
Faulkner would make would be that, in his opinion, it all boils down to one fundamental tenet: He does not
care if Haig was a competent or incompetent general. It is irrelevant. What is relevant is that he was part of
the ruling class and the rich who, as a minority, led the majority into war and death on a gargantuan scale in
which they had no interest. If pushed about as to the merits or other of Haig he would state that the class
structure of Haig and his circle meant that Haig did not trust his own men to use initiative and thus did not
allow them to use judgements on the spot, resulting in massive and absurd tactical and strategic folly. But this,
he again would emphasise, would be irrelevant to his main argument of the minority leading the majority into
catastrophe.
Dr. Ray Sutton has been asked to put the case for the proposition with particular regard to the strategy, and
more especially the tactics of the Battle of Loos.
The proposed argument for the opposition:
For the opposition Prof. Seligmann is asked first to briefly address the common allegations of butcher, bungler,
cavalry/myopia, contempt for human life, dispassion with regard to those killed and ‘shot at dawn’ etc.. He
should briefly respond to those concerns which will certainly be on the minds of the ‘floor’. He would then
flesh out a bigger picture about modern warfare in general.
Michael Woods of the Western Front Association would respond more spontaneously to Dr. Ray Sutton’s
allegations with regard to military strategy and tactics with particular reference to the Battle of Loos. He would
make the case in an operational learning curve style argument.
Debate Overview (see Appendix for details):
Pre-event timings:
5.30
Bill Brookman and Madeleine Coburn arrive
6.00 – 6.30 Rehearse with Tommy Atkins and High School girls (note at present they may not be there
because of exams – TBC)
Doors open about 7.05. Tea and Coffee on sale by museum staff
7.30 – 7.45 Chair, Bill Brookman, introduces the Debate and the speakers. A vote is taken from the floor.
Members of Tommy Atkins band perform a selection from Oh What a Lovely War! Short
silence. Debate rules are introduced (see Appendix).
7.45 – 9.00 Proposer, opposer, proposer’s seconder and opposer’s seconder are invited to speak for 10
minutes.
9.00 – 9.15 Questions from the floor
9.15 – 9.30 3 minutes each: Opposer’s refutation and summation; Proposer’s refutation and summation.
Final vote. Closing by the chair. Debate ends.
9.30 – 9.50 Tea coffee and clear up.
10.00
Event ends
The Debaters
Chair: Bill Brookman
Director of The Bill Brookman Foundation, implementing partner to United Nations missions in Kosovo, Nepal,
Uganda, Haiti and Somalia; actor musician and theatre director.
Proposer: Dr. Neil Faulkner
Historian, author of A Marxist History of the World and member of No Glory, Remembering the Real War,
organisation representing ideas about the WW1 commemoration.
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Editor: Military History Monthly
Contributor: Current Archaeology and Current World Archaeology
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Founder-director: Sedgeford Historical and Archaeological Research Project
Co-director: Great Arab Revolt Project
Research Fellow: Department of Archaeology and Anthropology, University of Bristol
Fellow: Society of Antiquaries
Author:
The Decline and Fall of Roman Britain (2000, 2001, 2004)
Apocalypse: the great Jewish revolt against Rome (2002, 2004, 2011)
Hidden Treasure: digging up Britain’s past (2003)
In Search of the Zeppelin War: the archaeology of the First Blitz (2008)
Rome: empire of the eagles (2008, 2010)
A Visitor’s Guide to the Ancient Olympics (2012)
A Marxist History of the World: from Neanderthals to Neoliberals (2013)
Digging Sedgeford: a people’s archaeology (forthcoming in 2014)
Lawrence of Arabia’s War (forthcoming in 2015)
Lecturer: NADFAS (National Association of Decorative and Fine Arts Societies)
Tour Leader: Italy, Greece, Jordan, Tunisia, Libya, Turkey, and elsewhere
TV archaeologist and historian: BBC2’s Timewatch, Channel 4’s Time Team, Channel 5’s Revealed, Sky
Atlantic’s The British, and many others
Proposer-seconder: Dr. Ray Sutton MA, PhD
Local historian Ray Sutton has earned great respect for his erudition and research into a host of local, national
and international issues. His well-attended and regular lectures have covered such wide topics as: Lost villages
and castle sites of Leicestershire, Leicestershire Luddites and Chartists, and George Orwell and the Spanish
Civil War.
Opposer: Dr. Matthew S. Seligmann MA, DPhil, FRHistS Reader in History, Brunel
University London, Department of Politics, History & the Brunel Law School
Recent Publications include:
The Royal Navy and the German Threat 1901-1914
Spies in Uniform: British Military and Naval Intelligence on the Eve of the First World War
He writes: “I spent my first eighteen years living and working in London before deciding to follow my passion
and study history. I was an undergraduate at the universities of Edinburgh and Pennsylvania, before
completing a doctorate at Sussex under the supervision of Professor John Röhl, the world’s foremost authority
on Kaiser Wilhelm II. Since then, I have worked mostly on Anglo-German relations and the causes of wars and
have authored or co-authored nine books and numerous articles on these topics. I joined Brunel as Reader in
History in September 2012 after many years of lecturing at the University of Northampton.”
Opposer-Seconder: Michael Woods MA
Michael Woods is an expert on strategy and tactic of the British army in WW1. He has submitted the
dissertation The Forgotten Battle of Loos as part of the requirements for the degree of MA in British First
World War Studies. He is assisted by Val Jaques and David Humberstone from The Leicestershire and Rutland
Western Front Association, of which he is also a member.
About the Charnwood Great War Centenary Project
Funded by the National Lottery Fund, The Charnwood Great War Centenary Project exists to promote a greater
understanding of the First World War through a series of initiatives and events including the repositioning of
war memorials at Loughborough All Saints Parish Church; researching names on local monuments; heritage
projects and events; schools projects and a series of conferences of which this debate forms a major part.
About the CGWCP Conference Programme
Activities in this series include:
 The Great War Centenary Debate ‘Haig – has history been fair?’
 Youth Forum ‘WarGames/PeaceGames’ exploring articulacy reflecting to peace initiatives in the
modern world. Date and place TBA
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Schools Conference: ‘Could WW1 have been different?. Hosted by Loughborough Grammar School,
13th November 2015. It will engage young people who already ideally have some grasp of history and
politics by addressing three contentious questions:
o Did Britain have to enter World War I?
o Haig: Has history been fair?
o Was the Treaty of Versailles a failure?
Proposed partnership with Loughborough University in a major international conference addressing
the ethics of technology in war. Possible date January 2016
Further Information
Loughborough Library will host the conference and organise tickets and refreshments.
Charnwood Arts will help publicise and document. Permission to photograph and video for educational and
non-profit purposes will be assumed to be given unless stated otherwise.
CGWCP will publicise it at:
http://charnwoodgreatwar.billbrookman.co.uk/Centenary%20Debate.html
https://www.facebook.com/WorldWar1Charnwood
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bill_brookman/sets/72157639827669884/
http://www.charnwoodarts.com/events/2014/09
Debaters will be invited by Bill Brookman of the Charnwood Great War Centenary Project
Local adult enthusiasts will be welcome to observe some of the proceedings
The press will be invited; photography and film will be permitted unless requested to be specifically restricted.
The results will be documented and put on line and in social media by Charnwood Arts
Heritage Lottery Funding will be acknowledged
Useful Contacts
For Loughborough Public Library
Carol Neath, Head Loughborough Public Library, Carol.Neath@leics.gov.uk
Bharti Acharyia, Outreach Worker 0116 3058750 Bharti.Acharya@leics.gov.uk
For The Charnwood Great War Centenary Project:
Bill Brookman, conference organiser bill@billbrookman.co.uk 01509 236175, 07792 655 670
Kevin Ryan, CEO Charnwood Arts, lead partner
Janet Grant, local history
Madeline Coburn, Participation in Action, heritage
http://charnwoodgreatwar.billbrookman.co.uk/Centenary%20Debate.html
Appendix
The Debate in Detail
1.
2.
3.
Chair opens the debate and states the ‘real’ debating question: ‘Was Haig a Butcher?’
Pre-debate: Audience votes for, against and don’t know.
Loughborough High School girls and members of Tommy Atkins Band perform selection from Oh
What a Lovely War! (Script in Appendix)
4. Short silence to remember the dead
5. Chair explains the rules of the debate:
6. Using the Oxford Union model: Proposer, Opposer, Proposer-seconder, Opposer- seconder
7. All have 10 minutes, bell sounded after 12 minutes.
8. 15/20 min Q & A
9. Summation Opposer, 3 min.
10. Summation Proposer, 3 min.
11. Vote: For, against, undecided.
12. RULES: Chair will refer to the speakers with their titles as a sign of respect for their expertise in their
subject but the public should judge them on the quality of their arguments, not their qualifications.
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13. A speaker can be interrupted by another speaker or from the ‘floor’ only on a ‘point of information’.
And then, only by standing silently with their hand raised. The speaker may or may not accept the
interruption at his/her own discretion.
14. Chair invited Neil Faulkner to propose the motion ‘This House believes that Haig was a butcher.’
15. Neil Falkner talks for 10 minutes.
16. Chair invites Prof. Seligmann to oppose the motion. 10 minutes.
17. Prof. Seligmann opposes motion.
18. Chair Invites Dr. Ray Sutton to second the motion.
19. Dr Ray Sutton seconds the motion.
20. Chair invites Michael Woods to second and oppose the motion
21. Michael Woods opposes motion
22. Chair invites Q & A from floor. 15/20 mins.
23. Questions are addressed to the chair who then may invite responses at his/her discretion from the
speakers, or leave the point made by the ‘floor’ as a stand-alone statement.
24. Closing refutation and summation, Prof Seligmann opposing
25. Closing refutation and summation Dr. Neil Faulkner proposing motion
26. Votes for/against/undecided
27. Event ends.
28. Refreshments
Script for ‘Haig: Has history been fair?’ events
Charnwood Great War Centenary Project
Adapted from ‘From Oh What a Lovely War’ (Methuen Drama)
HAIG (entering). Germany has shot her bolt. The prospects for 1916 are excellent.
BRITISH GENERAL 1 (entering with BRITISH GENERAL 2). Permission to speak, sir.
HAIG. Of course.
Slide 40: map of Ypres etc.
BRITISH GENERAL 1: If we continue this way, the line of trenches will stretch from Switzerland to the sea.
Neither we nor the Germans will be able to break through. The war will end in complete stalemate.
HAIG: Nonsense. We need only one more big offensive to breakthrough to win. My troops are of fine quality,
and specially trained for this type of war.
BRITISH GENERAL 2: This is not war, sir, it is slaughter.
HAIG: God is with us. IT is for King and Empire.
BRITISH GENERAL 2: We are sacrificing lives at the rate or five to sometimes fifty thousand a day.
HAIG: One battle, our superior morale, bombardment.
JUNIOR OFFICER (entering). Sir, tell us what to do and we’ll do it.
HAIG: We’re going to walk through the enemy lines.
(Saluting, Exit JUNIOR OFFICER)
(Explosion,)
SONG: THERE’S A LONG, LONG TRAIL
HAIG: “At this moment my men are advancing across no-man’s-land in full pack, dressing from left to right;
the men are forbidden under pain of court-martial to take cover in and shell hole or dugout… their magnificent
moral will cause the enemy to flee in confusion…”
Song comes to an end to sounds of heavy bombardment. Smoke.
HAIG: (Looking through field glasses). We must break through.
BRITISH GENERAL 2: Regardless of loss, sir?
HAIG: The loss of, say 300,000 men may lead to really great results.
BRITISH GENERAL 1: Yes, sir.
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(More battle. Smoke, Music continues, swelling up.)
(Next morning. Reveille)
HAIG’S RUNNER: Five ack emma, sir.
HAIG (Into the telephone). Press the attack immediately.
BRITISH GENERAL 1: (into the telephone). The losses were very heavy last night sir the…” (Phone does not
work, both callers shake their receivers.)
HAIG: There must be no squeamishness over losses. Give the orders to advance immediately.
(More music and gunfire which finally dies down)
BRITISH GENERAL 2: Permission to speak, sir? I have been wondering, or rather the staff and I have been
wondering, perhaps this policy of attrition might be a mistake. After all, it’s wearing us down more than it is
them. Couldn’t we try a policy of manoeuvre on other fronts?
HAIG: Nonsense. The Western Front is the only real front. We must grind them down. You see, our
population is greater than theirs and their losses are greater than ours.
BRITISH GENERAL 2: I don’t quite follow that, sir.
HAIG: In the end they will have five thousand men left and we will have ten thousand and we shall have won.”
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