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Strategic Historic Environment Forum
Wednesday 10 June 2015
Brodies LLP, Edinburgh
Note of Meeting
Present
Forum Members
Fiona Hyslop MSP (Chair) Cabinet Secretary for Culture, Europe and External
Affairs
Shulah Allan
Convenor, Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations
Cllr. Stephen Hagan
COSLA Spokesperson for Development, Economy and
Sustainability
Mark Hopton
Partner LDN Architects
Eleanor McAllister
Economist and Planner
William MacLeod
Chair, New Lanark Trust
Maria Perks
Chair, Association of Preservation Trusts
Graeme Purves
Chair, Built Environment Forum Scotland
Ian Ross
Chair, Scottish Natural Heritage
Jane Ryder
Chair, Historic Environment Scotland
Chris Stewart
Director, Stewart Group plc
In attendance
Diane McLafferty
Luke Wormald
Bill McQueen
Mirren Kelly
Jill Carrick
SG Culture and Historic Environment Division
SG Culture and Historic Environment Division
SG Culture and Historic Environment Division
COSLA
Deputy Chair NTS (representing Sir Moir Lockhead)
Welcome, Introductions and Note of Last Meeting
1.
Ms Hyslop welcomed all attendees to the third meeting of the Strategic Forum
and invited the group to note new members as follows:
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Jane Ryder – Chair of Historic Environment Scotland
Sir Moir Lockhead – Chair of National Trust for Scotland
Graeme Purves – Chair of Built Environment Forum Scotland
2.
Ms Hyslop also welcomed Jill Carrick who was standing in for Moir Lockhead.
It was also noted that all Forum papers would be published on the web. The Chair
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thanked Bill Drummond (in absentia) and Brodies for providing the venue for the
meeting.
Apologies
3.
The following apologies were noted: Petra Biberbach; Stephen Carter;
Douglas Connell; Bill Drummond; David Johnstone; and, Moir Lockhead.
Note of Previous Meeting
4.
The note of the previous meeting was agreed and progress in delivering
action points were noted as follows:

The Historic Environment Operational Group was developing a
communications plan for Our Place in Time that will address/facilitate better
communications within the Forum, across the strategy delivery model and
develop the Forum’s engagement with external stakeholders.

Scottish Government officials were in discussion with colleagues about
developing the web presence for the Strategy. It was agreed that Forum
members would be kept up to date as this work progressed.

It was noted that the papers for today’s meeting included an item on Horizon
Scanning as requested by the Forum; that members had received a draft copy
of the Strategy Annual Report; and, that a new format (one that was more
issue focused) had been developed for the meeting.

It was agreed that Secretariat would issue a monthly update to Forum
members to ensure that all members were regularly updated on issues
relating to Strategy delivery.
Action Point: Secretariat to issue monthly update email to members of the
Forum. (Action: Secretariat)
Cabinet Secretary Opening Remarks
5.
In her opening remarks Ms Hyslop commented as follows:

A lot has happened since the last meeting – not least of which was the general
election of 7 May.

The budget will continue to be a big issue going forward. Scotland is now facing a
reduction of £107m in public funding and against this backdrop the need to work
together is critical. We are facing challenges and we need to be realistic but the
glass is half full.

We have developed a new format for Forum meetings. We can now move to a
more issue based and less paper focused meeting format. Today we will hear
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from our colleague Chris Stewart on historic environment issues from the
perspective of a private developer.

There has been remarkable progress in delivering our vision for the historic
environment since our first meeting in June last year. There is real energy, focus
and buy-in in what we are doing. The University of Glasgow Knowledge
exchange event, for example, which was set up to explore Our Place in Time is
particularly encouraging as signalling a remarkable level of support from outwith
the sector.

The Horizon Scanning table included with the papers for today’s meeting notes
that UNESCO’s decision on the Forth Bridge’s nomination for world heritage
status will be made in early July. Hopeful for a positive outcome here.

We have a new lead body for the sector in Historic Environment Scotland (HES).
The new Board of HES was appointed in early 2015 and the full suite of
regulations required to enable the new body to carry out its functions have been
now been signed-off.
Progress on the Establishment of Historic Environment Scotland
6.
Jane Ryder provided the Forum with an update on the establishment of HES
and offered some reflections on the process to date. Key points raised:
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The new Board was appointed at the end of January. It is a strong Board
whose members have a good range of skills and experience. The Board is
enthusiastic and hugely ambitious for the new body.
It was a privilege to Chair the new organisation although the process to date
had been challenging and time consuming. But see great opportunities for
the new body - real period of excitement about its future.
Currently in a period of transition as the Board and the new body will not
assume full powers until 1 October 2015.
Beginning the process of developing a common understanding and ambitions
around the new organisation.
A lot of work already underway around establishing an operational platform for
HES – key to this process has been the underlying ethos that HES will be an
entirely new organisation – not simply a merger of two existing bodies.
Board is keen for the organisation to develop its own vision. Currently
developing thinking around that – at present this is loosely articulated as
‘Protecting Scotland’s Past – Shaping Scotland’s Future’.
The Board’s ambition is for HES to be respected and valued nationally and
internationally.
It was noted that HES’s first draft Corporate Plan would be launched during
the Strategy Conference in November 2015.
One of the key strengths of the new organisation would be its staff who are
passionate about what they do.
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7.
The Forum noted progress to date and Cllr Hagan commented that the
current good relations between HS/RCAHMS, COSLA and the Scottish Government
was a good environment in which to establish the new body.
8.
It was noted that the architects’ world seemed unaware of what was going on
with the heritage management changes that were being brought in in the context of
the creation of HES.
Action Point: Need to explore how best to get the messaging re HES and
new legislation out to a wide audience including architects. (Action:
Secretariat in liaison with SG Planning/COSLA/HES Bill Team).
Reports from Working Groups - Dashboard Paper
SHEF 2015/01
9.
Luke Wormald invited members to note that the dashboards provided the
Forum with a summary overview of activities as the delivery of the Strategy
progressed. The Backward Look Dashboard for 2014/15 recorded progress to date
while the Forward Look set out a series of actions for the coming year. In particular
the Forum noted that the Measuring Success Working Group had launched Baseline
1 on 1 April 2015. The Cabinet Secretary stressed that the purpose of the
Dashboard approach was to provide the Forum with a strategic overview of delivery
that would enable members to quickly identify areas for concern; those areas where
the Forum could help drive new actions and allow them to see at a glance if progress
was on track.
10.
The Cabinet Secretary sought clarification on why the Heritage Tourism
Group had not yet identified objectives/actions for 2015/16. It was noted that this
group was endeavouring to deliver both Our Place in Time and the historic
environment elements of the Tourism Strategy 2020 and that this twin approach had
meant that the group had struggled to prioritise activities to deliver for both
strategies.
11.
The Cabinet Secretary and the Forum agreed the importance of heritage
tourism for Scotland and the need to deliver outcomes in this critically important
area. While we need to work in collaboration with tourism colleagues to develop
collective approach heritage tourism needs a stronger voice. Developing a robust
narrative around the importance and significance of heritage tourism will be critical
going into the Spending Review. It was stressed that the domestic audience was an
important factor here and that the economic importance of the historic environment
was not just about tourism
12.
Jill Carrick spoke to the update from the Participation WG. In particular she
invited the Forum to note that 3 sub-groups had been set up to consider: Education
and Training; Volunteering and Audience Development. Each sub-group had met on
2 occasions and each had set a series of targets. Shulah Allan reported that the
SCVO had had a very successful meeting with Pete Selman of the NTS (and chair of
the Participation Working Group). It was noted that the Strategy offered new
opportunities to deliver for the voluntary sector. The Forum acknowledged the huge
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importance of volunteering for the sector including unpaid trustees of a wide range of
local amenity bodies and charities etc. It was also noted that the training that some
trustees required was increasingly demanding and that the level of training required
for some volunteers paralleled that required by full-time staff. The Forum should
not lose sight of this important aspect of volunteering. The Cabinet Secretary
suggested that any new work falling out from the Skills Audit might usefully look at
issues around training for trustees and Board members.
Action Point: Develop range of options to build on Skills Audit including
a consideration of training for Board members etc. (Action: Secretariat
and Historic Environment Operational Group)
13.
Stephen Hagan spoke to the update from the Joint Working Group. In
particular he invited the Forum to note that the Group had delivered for 2014/15 and
had developed a significant number of actions for 2015/16. Key areas for 2015/16
include: identifying and communicating the importance of the historic environment;
identifying barriers to delivery; and, developing asset management guidance and
continuing to work on undesignated assets.
14.
Ian Ross spoke to the update from the Landscape Group noting that the
group was up and running; that sub-groups had been identified and a workshop
arranged at Battleby. A draft statement on historic landscapes had been drawn up
which was based on the Scottish Landscape Charter. Confident that the group will
deliver for December.
15.
Luke Wormald reported that the Skills Audit phase 1 Report had been
finalised and agreed to circulate to Forum members for comment.
Action Point: Circulate Skills Audit Phase 1 Report to Forum Members
(Action: Secretariat)
16.
It was agreed that the Forum should look in more detail at one of the areas
covered by the Strategy working groups.
Action Point: Develop programme of talks/discussions focusing on the
work of the Strategy working groups for the Forum to consider
progress/issues in depth. (Action: Secretariat/Forum/Operational
Group/Chairs of Working Groups).
17.
The Forum
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noted and endorsed the key milestones achieved in 2014/15;
noted and endorsed key milestones for 2015/16; and
noted progress in delivering the Skills Audit; Climate Change and Historic
Landscapes.
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Draft Annual Report Paper
SHEF 2015/02
18.
Forum members noted the draft annual report and agreed to provide
Secretariat with comments on the draft by 31 July 2015. It was also noted the final
report would be published and presented to the Parliament after the summer recess.
Action Point: Members of the Forum to provide Secretariat with
comments on the draft Strategy Annual Report by 31 July. (Action:
Forum Members).
Presentation from Chris Stewart
19.
Chris Stewart gave a presentation to the Forum on historic environment
issues as seen from the perspective of a developer. While the talk drew on his wide
experience in this area of activity to date the talk focused in particularly on his work
at Advocates Close in Edinburgh. Chris’s main conclusions were as follows:
Economic and Social Outputs (of the redevelopment of Advocates Close)
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£400K of new business rates to CEC
Removal of severe antisocial behaviour
400 skilled jobs within the development period
Owned assets extend to in excess of £140m
120 new post construction jobs based in Advocates Close
Estimated £10m GVA (per annum) to the economy
Now and on-going location for cultural projects
Improved the image of the Old Town
Catalyst for further positive investment
Re-established a forgotten piece of our heritage
Financial and Planning Challenges
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Private sector investment the only real source of available funding;
dominated by international capital
Funding is impatient and “neutral” on heritage issues – not nostalgic
Widening gap between modern office, hotel, apartment etc. standards and
physical limitations of the historic fabric
Historic fabric carries additional financial and physical risk
Planning process struggles with complex heritage policy issues
On the ground consultation doesn’t necessarily match policy
Historic consultees feel threatened by development
Conclusions/Observations
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There is a direct link between successful preservation/regeneration of
historic buildings and the willingness of private capital to commit to the
historic environment
Greater collaboration between private and public sector is key
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A positive economy more than ever is required to attract funding to the
historic environment
Policy objectives need to be clear and reinforced at officer level
Timescales for all need to shorten
Our experience is the Planning System is now under resourced and
creaking
Opportunity
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Private investment in the historic environment, as shown at Advocate’s
Close, can materially contribute to the cultural, social, environmental and
economic requirements of Scotland.
We need to make sure that the underlying system is capable of making it
happen.
Summary of Forum Discussion - Key Issues
Experience
20.
The Forum noted that, in some instances, the relative inexperience of young
planners might lead to delays in the planning process. It was also noted that strong
leadership could help address this issue.
Policy and Guidance
21.
The Forum noted that the interpretation and application of policy at officer
level could be inconsistent. However it was also noted that ‘policy’ in the context of
historic buildings has to be generic not specific and that this approach created a
problem as generic guidance was open to widely different interpretations. There was
a need to tighten up and clarify guidance.
Rising Number of Redundant Historic Buildings
22.
It was noted that there were a huge number of historic environment built
assets in across all of Scotland’s local authorities and if we do not get the balance
right in relation to planning consent/development issues we could end up with a
many more redundant buildings. It was noted that the issue of redundant historic
buildings in town centres was not just an issue for local authorities but other
organisations also such as the NHS and the Police.
LA Resources
23.
It was noted that while planning/development/regeneration issues were
complex the situation had been exacerbated by the current financial downturn.
Urban Design Panels
24.
Chris Stewart noted that Scotland had an abundance of architectural talent
that might be encouraged to give more support to local authorities perhaps through
developing the Urban Design Panel approach. There are a lot of local architects who
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know their cities/towns/regions well and this collective knowledge could work in
unison to provide local authorities with insightful, informed advice on projects. Such
an approach would maximise the value of any potential scheme for all communities.
This approach would also be able to consider, in a meaningful way, the quality of the
design being proposed. He noted that we also need well paid and confident planners
with a background in design/architecture and we need strong leadership from the
planning perspective.
Need to Attract Investors
25.
Need to show global investors that the investment risks in Scotland are low.
Need to focus on attracting investors to Scotland. Edinburgh is an easy sell to global
investors. Glasgow is a bit more difficult while the real difficulties lie with the likes of
Kirkcaldy, Kilmarnock, and Ayr etc. Moreover, there are no local companies with
funds to invest in local development. In the past small local developers previously
needed c.5%-c.10% of proposed project costs to secure additional project funding
now they required c.40%-c.50%. We should explore opportunities to create a fund
for regional development in town centres for local developers and architects.
26.
Ms Hyslop suggested that she might usefully explore some of the issues
raised with Scottish Government colleagues.
Action Point: Secretariat to arrange series of meetings for the Cabinet
Secretary as follows:
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Alex Neil, Stephen Hagan – planning issues (including capacity)
Alex Neil, John Swinney – funding/investment/’regional development
funds’
Scottish Enterprise and Skills Development Scotland (and international
colleagues) – in context of global investment.
Horizon Scanning and Forward Look
SHEF 2015/03
27.
It was noted that 2016 will be the Year of Innovation, Architecture and Design
and that 2017 will be the Year of History, Heritage and Archaeology. It was agreed
that we should be seeking to build on the platform of the next two Focus Years to
develop and promote a better understanding of the historic environment and what we
are trying achieve through Our Place in Time. It was agreed that a discussion paper
around options for increasing the profile of the historic environment the Year of
Innovation and Architecture would be helpful.
Action Point: Develop paper on how the historic environment can
contribute to and benefit from the Year of Innovation Architecture and
Design in 2016.(Action: Secretariat/Historic Environment Operational
Group/SHEF/Historic Environment Scotland and SG Major Events team)
28.
Jill Carrick invited the Forum to note that the next International Conference of
National Trusts will take place in Cambridge from 7-11 September 2015. Hosted by
the National Trust of England, Wales and Northern Ireland, the event this year will
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consider Understanding the role and purpose of the Trust movement in the 21 st
century.
29.
The Forum agreed to consider options for setting up a mini international
summit to look at investment/funding issues.

Action Point: Explore options around setting up a ‘mini summit’ to look
at global, national and regional investment issues/opportunities for the
historic environment. (Action: Secretariat and Historic Environment
Operational Group in the first instance with input from Chris Stewart and
SG Strategy colleagues).
Close
30.
It was noted that the date of the next meeting was Wednesday 9 December
2015 and it was agreed that Historic Environment Scotland would provide the venue.
Action: Secretariat and HES to confirm arrangements for next meeting
SHEF Secretariat
July 2015
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