DRAFT of Minutes taken during H2IWG Meeting on 9/23/2015
Started meeting at 1:07 pm on 9/23/2015
Members present:
Stan Osserman (Coordinator),
Mitch Ewan (Deputy WG Chair),
Rene-Andre DeRosa, (Finance) and
Paul Ponthieux via phone (who did not accept the invitation yet); called in at
1:25PM
Members not present: Dave Rolf (on the mainland) and
David Rodriguez
Stan opened up the meeting a 1:07pm
Since the Sunshine Law applies to this Hawaii Hydrogen Implementation Working Group (H2IWG), it
took 6 weeks to formally stand it up because Stan and Mitch had to sit down with a Representative from
the Attorney General’s Office to decide how many people should be on the working group (WG). If you
have too many and you cannot get a quorum, then the WG cannot meet. IF you have more than 2
members from the WG, then you cannot talk about anything on the agenda…almost like a BOD set of
rules. The intent of the Sunshine Law is to have public transparency which is what Stan wants to
accomplish more than anything, and to get participation by the public; we have set it up according to
the State of Attorney General (AG)’s guidelines. The original Steering Committee and Stan met again
late last month on the 27th of August, and hammered through some issues in standing up the WG.
Stan introduced the new H2IWG members which he has selected: Mitch Ewan from Hawaii Natural
Energy Institution (Deputy WG Chair), Rene-Andre DeRosa from Lamplighter Energy (to provide
guidance on financing), Dave Rolf of Hawaii Auto Dealers Association who is on the mainland right now
and will not be attending, Paul Ponthieux of Blue Planet Research on the Big Island (who did not respond
nor accept the invitation yet, so we are not sure if he will be a member), and David Rodriquez of State
Dept. of Transportation (DoT). The US Dept. of Energy (DOE) and State Energy Office were also invited
to be on the WG; however, after having discussions with our lawyer, we realized that should those
entities be on the WG, we would be hampered by the Sunshine Law’s limitations since Mitch and Stan
already meet with the State Energy Office on an ongoing biweekly basis; therefore, State Energy Office is
not a member, but will always be invited as Margaret Larson is here representing that office. US DOE is
not a member because of the 6 hour time difference and the requirement of public notice, and IF they
were a member, they not only have to call in, but the public notice would have to also be posted up
there in the mainland at their location and report back on who is in the room, and more importantly it’ll
inhibit them (DOE) from providing guidance or advice on current issues or when assistance involving
federal grants is needed (if more than 2 WG members are present in a meeting or scheduled group
conference calls). As a result, the WG has been narrowed down to a 5-member team, with Stan being
the Coordinator.
We want this on record that the Energy Office is not part of this WG because of the Sunshine Law’s
limitations which is placed on us, as they (the limitations) will hamper us more than help us since Stan
and Mitch (who are both part of the H2IWG) are already meeting with the Energy Office on a biweekly
basis.
Stan introduced Kevin Chak, the IT guy from state agency High Technology Development Corporation
(HTDC) who provides support to my office Hawaii Center for Advanced Transportation Technologies
(HCATT), which is a program of HTDC. HCATT is a 4-man shop which consists of Stan (Program Director),
Kristy Carpio (Contracts Administrator), Christine Tanuvasa (Secretary) and a Program Manager (the
vacant position that we are trying to currently fill).
Kevin will be introducing to the H2IWG the social media and affiliated websites, which are the
communication channels on how the word will be disseminated and keep us connected. The Hawaii
Hydrogen Initiative’s (H2I) website (which Stan has inherited from GM and is using the same URL), was
being utilized and maintained when the military users were using the fuel cell (FC) vehicles to share
information; however, with the AF pulling out 2 years ago, the Army pulling out 1 year ago, and the Navy
finishing up this year, that website has now been adapted towards the H2IWG as the WG is to develop a
way for hydrogen (H2). It is a working website that is currently under construction and migration from
the old one to the new one.
Kevin mentioned and displayed to the public by the projector, the following addresses for public
outreach:
Htdc.org/hcatt
Hydrogen2hawaii.com
facebook\hcatt.htdc
twitter@hcatthtdc
HCATT’s website that has all the information on its projects
the former H2 Initiative website, now H2IWG’s website
posting energy/hydrogen-related articles (ex: Apple’s FC phone)
twitter account
Stan also informed about the weekly Friday 12 noon show titled, Stan the Energy Man, on Think Tech.
Stan invited anyone interested to sign up so that he/she can be on his show. Public awareness is what
the H2IWG has to focus on as there is so much misperception about hydrogen. Mitch has already had a
bad experience involving his H2 generation equipment on the Big Island with a Charter School being
located nearby. There was a protest by the public reacting to what they believe as “the h2 bomb being
in their neighborhood.”
When we first had the WG meeting, we went through some drills where we talked about strategies on
how to get infrastructure out in Hawaii. When I first came into this job, I thought that fleet vehicles
were going to be the lead and that’s the way to go, but Stan was blown away when he attended his first
FC Conference, to see a Honda Clarity there and also saw that other Original Equipment Manufacturers
(OEMs) are already building vehicles and are in production. To Stan, Toyota and Hyundai in particular
are the ones that have accelerated in the passenger vehicle market. We (H2IWG) need to start
accelerating and it’s not just fleet vehicles that we have to focus on, but also passenger car vehicles…and
to open the opportunities farther to include agriculture, material handling, emergency power, and a
bunch of other areas. It then became clear that there is more the need to develop the demand for H2
using commercial off-the-shelf available things like FC tractors for agriculture, FC for back-up power
supply, and material handling forklifts to get the market there for hydrogen to be sold in…and if you
don’t have the market for the H2, then you are stuck in the chicken and egg scenario. It’s more than just
concentrating only on fleet vehicles, or passenger vehicles, or agriculture…we ought to be doing all of
it…Stan believes that’s the key to this whole thing. It’s going to take a whole lot of different sectors in
our economy to start adopting H2, and we need to prioritize and organize so that we can start moving
ahead.
Stan presented the first handout (as hard copy and on the projector) titled, “H2IWG Brainstorming
Worksheet Sept 23, 2015” and discussed the topics.
-Outreach: David Rodriguez suggested re-branding the word “H2.” Call it something else so that the
people do not associate the Hindenburg and H bomb with H2. That works in some cases, if there is a
negative connotation with a name, they just re-brand it and can call it something else, but Stan is not
sure how successful that would be; marketing; public outreach including school curriculum. We really
need to focus on outreach in order to avoid protest by the public which Mitch has experienced.
-Policy: regarding tax credits for commercial off the shelf (COTS) products running on H2 (ex: material
handling, farm equipment, portable generators and lighting). We need to look at restrictions on selling
“curtailed power” from commercial scale operations. There are wind and solar farms that cannot be put
online or they are curtailed 20-30% of their power and are prohibited from selling it…but the more I talk
to different people to understand why, the legislature is telling me that there are no laws that say you
cannot sell the curtailed power, but maybe it’s in the power purchase agreement that’s being
contracted which is being coerced that the power producer cannot sell the power? It’s unknown.
Maybe it’s a misunderstanding? If I was a wind power producer, and I wanted to sell my power to my
neighbor 5 miles down the road, and I want send the power back on the grid to send it 5 miles down the
road, I can see how utility can have a play on that and say that you cannot do it…..but if you are
producing power on your property and you are selling the power to the utility company and then they
say they don’t want it, then why can’t we make H2 at the base on the wind farm if it’s not being put
back on the grid? So we need to talk to lawyers, as that is a big piece of the puzzle. De-conflicting City &
County ordinances regarding “off the grid lifestyles and other things that limit folks;
 Paul Ponthieux called in on the conference call at 1:25PM. Stan introduced Paul to the H2IWG and
attendees.
We need to work on policy things with the counties, the state, and coordinate as best we can with the
federal agencies to streamline the permitting, regulations, or safety issues. In order to do that, we will
be looking at California (CA) quite a bit. The State of CA already spent quite a bit on taxpayer’s money on
standardizing and working H2 Infrastructure….and I can’t see us turning around spending more money
all over again when they have already broken the code and already working it. From what Stan has
seen, they not only did the standardization code be applied towards the Sate of CA, but they’ve done it
for across the US and worked international standards and protocols also. So they’ve broken that code.
So from what you get from Toyota in Japan and Hyundai in Korea are all standardized with what you see
with GM or Honda; therefore, the standard protocols in dispensing fuel are already established. Some
of the things that we need to standardize also are the protocols between some of the manufacturers. I
don’t think that it’s common knowledge, that before the car manufactures, the OEMs will allow the
vehicles to be fueled at the stations that are certified as they want the insurance that their vehicles are
being refueled with high quality H2 to avoid its warranty from being voided due to inferior H2 product
being dispensed in its vehicle. We need to put out standards. Unlike H2, if you are pumping out regular
gasoline, there is a sticker on the pump that validates by the Dept. of Agriculture (AG) that you are
getting a gallon. However, H2 is a little more mysterious as it is a gas that comes out of a compressed
system, and if it comes out too hot, you’ll not going to get the same volume as if it is cooled down. You
will get more H2 if it is cooled down versus heated up. Therefore, there needs to be standards on those
dispensing equipment.
-Education: Community College curriculum development for FC technologies.
-Safety: DMV needs to work on getting safety checks for these fuel cell electric vehicles (FCEVs); how
will DMV register FCEVs? Help county and state agencies develop vehicle safety checks and DMV policies
for FCEVs; Working with Sate DoT on transporting H2 and liquid H2 (LH2) on HI highways.
-Finance: Money and finance gets complicated when you are working with this type of big scale
infrastructure; Getting out-of-state investors get complicated; we need someone who can help us on
this project, which is great that we have Rene-Andre DeRosa on our WG. Possibility of commercial LH2
production on the Big Island and shipping to other points in the state; design a model for an off the grid
“small farm;” develop funding models for small businesses to move into H2 production, distribution,
and services.
-Project Collaboration: Foreign Trade Zone (FTZ), which is run by DBEDT under David Sikkink, wants to
pull its building off the grid, this announcement has been made public on the Hawaii Pacific Business
News about 6 weeks ago. FTZ is requesting assistance with their transition to H2 production and energy
storage from their solar project; DoT is requesting assistance with projects that demonstrate H2 at the
airport, as the State is now requiring DoT to take the rental car shuttle buses and consolidate under one
company that will run the show for 5 years. In regards to these shuttle buses, they usually have a 12
year life…so why stop at 5-year life when there are 7 more years left? Just refurbish it, and convert it.
There are a lot of state agencies that are ready to do things and are ready to get started. H2 is the fuel of
the future. There are a lot of people that are seriously interested and moving in that direction. When
we get this WG going, I think that more people will see all the players that are involved and realize that
Hawaii is serious and the place to do it. Development of H2 production/storage/power generation as
part of HECO (MECO, HELCO) distributed generation plan to absorb more renewables; plans to support
the World Conservation Conference in Sept 2016.
Displayed by the projector and also distributed as a hard copy is the handout titled, “Legislative
Proposal H2 Infrastructure Legislation,” Stan wants Mitch to talk about his draft. Background: 5 years
ago, Mitch wrote a H2 plan for the State with recommended policies for transitioning to a H2 economy.
He went through the plan and pulled out the low hanging fruits to focus on that wasn’t too expensive
and easy to facilitate the transition to H2. You’ll see on this handout a list of bills that were
recommending legislation. All these recommendations went forward last year and produced a
legislation that was submitted. What’s missing from there was the Energy Coordinator, what I call the
Energy Authority for the H2 Implementation; which is the only one that made it, but that was the most
important one in Mitch’s opinion, if you at strategy….and to set up this group was strategic. So in the
following years, we can look and see what kind of legislation do we need to help this transition and
develop these markets; therefore, Mitch has distributed this handout to the WG to stimulate thinking
about what we should be doing and what we need to push forward to develop this market and move
forward.
Some of the bills are small, Mitch introduced to the WG Bill #6, Thermal Imaging Camera for First
Responders, to provide an example. Hardly any of the First Responders on the Big Island have thermal
imaging cameras, since the Big Island doesn’t have the budget for it ($10k each). Once you get the first
responders on board, it will be a little easier for the permitting side of it because then the guy issuing
out permits will have more confidence in signing off on it. During the previous year, Mitch has
submitted legislation to make NFPA2, (which is a H2 codes in standards as the official standards for state
of HI). Our Fire Departments and our codes in standards are based on NFPA standards anyway. It went a
long way, almost made it, until the AG mentioned that if we made this law, then we are allowing an
outside authority (ex: the Working Group) that put together these standards in fact making laws for HI
that we (the State) have no control over. So Mitch dropped it there, some language was added, and I
didn’t follow up on it. But this year, we can follow up on it, make it discretionary or advisable or gives
direction, but not make it a state law. Mitch offered his time with anyone who would like to discuss
anything on the handout.
Bill#1: if we don’t have the money then this will not work; then everything is vaporware. We do have
money in the barrel tax; back then when the State did not have funds with furloughs going on, 60% of
the barrel tax (which amounted to about $19 to $20 mil/yr.) went to the general funds. Blue Planet
Foundation took a poll discovered that 80-85% of the public supported the barrel tax, but that was
based on the premise that the money was being used on the intent which was to ween the State off of
fossil fuels. We need to make another push. Every year the Energy Policy Forum puts forward policy to
capture the other 60%, but of course it’s always stonewalled because it is a nice pot of gold for the
legislature to use.