MINUTES OF NAWRA MEETING HELD ON
FRIDAY 3rd JUNE IN EDINBURGH
Present
Shabir Elahi
Tris Momo
Alice Dair
Claire Owens
Alex Williams
Neil Bateman
Karen Conner
Cathy Gowenlock
Robert Bills
Billy Park
Jarwinder Jagra
Val Hudson
Sarah Collins
Chris Goldair
Lynn Wynd
Clive Davis
Euan Henderson
MT
Maria Tealay
Mick Guy
G Mockie
Bashir Zaman
S Campbell
Kate Fincham
C Hackman
Frances Brown
Brian Dougan
Alan Markey
Kyle Walker
Lenerre Syed
Robert Hinds
Liz Watts
Sarah Walker
Graham Bazley
Keith Spencer
Alban Hawksworth
Ian Gemmell
Sarah Campbell
Emma Bridges
Carolyn Armstrong
Barry MacDonald
Richard Gass
Jim Thompson
Jacqueline Brown
Blackburn with Darwen BC
Staffs CC
Staffs CC
Denbighshire CC
Denbighshire CC
North Lanarkshire Council
Neath Port Talbot Council
CEC WRS
Stockton WR
Stockton WR
Redcar & Cleveland WR
Middlesbrough WR
Middlesbrough WR
Newcastle WRS
Newcastle WRS
Glasgow CC
Sunderland City WRS
Surrey WRU
Durham WR
WRO
Tameside HBC WRS
Perennial
MASH Citizens Advice Leeds
North Lanarkshire Council
ERCouncil
East Lanarkshire Council
Citizens Advice Specialist Support
North Lanarkshire Council
North Lanarkshire Council
Glasgow City
Renfrewshire
North Lanarkshire
East Bristol Advice Centre
RNID
Age Concern England
EAC
CPAG
Speakeasy Advice Centre (Cardiff)
North Lanarkshire Council
Counsel & Care, Camden London
Glasgow CC
Dunedin Canmore HA
TPS
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John MacPhail
John Rahman
Paul McColl
Jim Fogarty
Hugh McCut
Tracey Brown
Shawn Mach
TPS
LB Redbridge
NLC
Glasgow CC
Glasgow CC
North Ayshire Council
Rightsnet
Apologies
Bestwood Advice Centre; Wendy Grayson (Disability Law Service);
Derbyshire WR; Tom Messere (Swansea WR); Patrick Hill (Bolton WR): Help
the Aged, Seniorline; Jim McKenny (Kirklees WR); Belinda Belaire (St
Dunstans); Keith Thompson (Northumberland WR); Jane Hayball (Greenwich
WR); Celia Minoughan (LB Newham); Wakefield MDC Benefits Unit; Lorna
Hutchinson (South Kirklees CAB); Veronica De Heer (Essex CC); Gillian
Manning (Mutual Benefit Training); Mike Shermer (Kings Lynn & West Norfolk
WR); Terry Patterson.
Welcome
Anne Hannah, Edinburgh Council
Speakers
John McPhail (Group Manager for Scotland) & Jacqueline Brown (Partnership
Development Officer for Scotland)
Presentation attached
Minutes of Last Meeting
Agreed.
Steering Group Report
Alan Markey summarised the following points:
 Drafted letter to UK Local Authorities about ‘Joint Teams’, contact Alan
or Sarah: alan.markey@citizensadvice.org.uk, scampbell@cpag.org.uk
 Future meetings:
o Wigan, 2nd September 2005
o London Borough of Camden, 2nd December 2005
o Nottingham, March 2006
 Future workshops:
o Ethics & Values ‘debate’
o Discretion v Rights
o Any other ideas please contact your Steering Group
Representative or the Secretary
Contact list attached
Secretary email: scampbell@cpag.org.uk
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Increasing national awareness of NAWRA
We have attended NOS4 meetings
We have representatives on the DWP Working Group & Tax Credits
Working Group
Research ideas? Please contact your Steering Group Rep
Appeal process review
Possible Steering Group voting in December, please be prepared
Success and importance of Welfare Rights
New regional network in East Anglia
o Please let your Steering Group Rep know of any networks not
on the list attached
Rightsnet subscriptions
o To be discussed for next year to include discount as part of
NAWRA membership
Information Exchange
Richard Gass (Glasgow Council)
Scotland website has a Pension Credit calculator:
http://www.glasgow.gov.uk/en/Residents/GettingAdvice/WelfareRights/Benefit
s/Calculators/
Mary (Sunderland Welfare Rights)
Tax Credits experience is that Inland Revenue is uncommunicative, anyone
else’s experiences?
Anne Hannah (Edinburgh Council)
Inland Revenue won’t do a presentation about Tax Credits.
Richard Gass (Glasgow Council)
Kate Marsden met with us, Scottish Rep to be organised.
Alan Markey (Citizens Adv ice Specialist Support Unit)
Tax Credit issues can be raised through our Tax Credit Rep Andy Platt:
plata002@leicester.gov.uk
Paula Twigg (CPAG)
Join our Tax Credits Monitoring Network to be included in mailing of Quarterly
Updates.
Mary (Sunderland Welfare Rights)
DWP Liaison Group meeting today.
Alan (Citizens Advice SSU)
Tax Credit minutes last circulated on 26th April 2005.
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Neil Bateman
Problems with Job Centre Plus interpreters (lack of them), monitoring and
feedback please, to: neil@neilbateman.co.uk
Is NAWRA Rep on DWP Strategy Forum, please send feedback, and
strategic policy concerns to him. Minutes will be circulated.
Keith Spencer (RNID)
Telephony Access meeting in Leeds, admittance of lack of provision of
services with no future plans to provide services, send evidence to:
keith.spencer@rnid.org.uk
Via email
Belinda Belaire (St Dunstans)
In the matter of Council Tax exemptions for "quiet rooms": Since the Sandwell
Council v John Perks case we have had quite a few Local Authorities trying to
cancel/refuse the "quiet room" rebate. They all seem to be under the
impression that this was a judicial decision and can be used as law when in
fact; Mr. Perks never took it that far. Would that he had - it would have made
life a great deal easier for us!
Our representative at the last case (only last week) against Stroud
Council had to be very firm and point out to the Council Representative that
"in her opinion" carried no weight and that the regulations are very specific in
this respect and have not been changed!
Has anyone else had the same problem? If they have, we are swiftly
becoming a fount of knowledge on how to beat these cases and will, we
believe, have to continue to do so until someone takes it the whole 9 yards
and there is a commissioner’s decision on the matter!
Email belinda.belaire@st-dunstans.org.uk with feedback.
Keith Spencer (RNID)
Issue raised 18 months ago, several cases to tribunal, only won 1. Asked for
ODPM’s view who have referred back to Local Authority. Collating info,
please do contact Keith.
Alan (CA SSU)
Sandwell Council cancelled Disability reduction asking for reapplication.
Shabir Elahi (Blackburn with Darwen Council)
One Stop Shops, early talk to combining services.
Anne (Edinburgh Council)
Scottish plans to develop contact centres, Welfare Rights to move into
Council centres.
Vera Baxter (Scottish Borders Council)
Previously managed a One Stop Shop, this service enhanced the Welfare
Rights service, a combination of MP’s, CABx and Welfare Rights teams
shared the building. West Lothian a good example, it’s possible to contact
Alan Cunningham.
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Calum (North Lanarkshire Council)
Contact centres addressing specific issues, not Welfare Rights issues.
Clive Davis (Newcastle Council)
A problem with One Stop Shops is that sometimes they include Local
Authorities that can put customers off.
Bashir (Tameside Welfare Rights)
Worked well until combined with revenues office.
Vera (Scottish Borders Council)
Lancashire County Council WRS agreed Independence statement to deal with
these issues.
Anne (Edinburgh Council)
South Ayrshire Commissioner questioning Welfare Rights decision based on
independence.
Joint Teams Discussion
Mary (Sunderland WR)
Concerning is data protection issue, used often now in conversations.
Richard (Glasgow Council)
Saw on website, not possible to share info even if in Joint Team.
Anne (Edinburgh Council)
Must have mandate and be cautious of how it is worded.
John McPhail (Group Manager for Scotland)
Memorandum of understanding must include use of info is only for decisionmaking.
Jacqueline (Partnership Development Officer for Scotland)
Service enhancement is about gathering and sharing of info to improve
decision-making.
Calum (North Lanarkshire Council)
Our experience of Scottish plans so far is that Joint Teams is what is going to
happen NOT Joint Working.
Issue is Welfare Rights workers and DWP employees have different decisionmaking ideas.
Frances Brown (ERC)
How can client have a choice who they deal with?
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Alan (CA SSU)
Mark Eholt said there’d be no need for independent advice centres once Joint
Teams rolls out. Has spoken with Pension Service, decisions haven’t been
referred to independent advice centres.
An Important part of Welfare Rights work is campaigning etc.
Iris (Staffordshire Council)
In talks with DWP, have been told no advocacy work can be carried out.
Sarah Collins (Middlesbrough Council)
Decisions made by revenues team, works with Welfare Rights team closely.
Pension Service intentions are admirable, however examples are showing
poor service and advice.
Richard (Glasgow Council)
Joint Teams could be acceptable if with other teams but NOT Welfare Rights.
Keith (RNID)
Info discussed at national level is not reaching regions. Joint Teams is NOT
Partnership Working.
Caroline (Lanarkshire Council)
Involvement in care assessments, registration an issue.
John McPhail
Joint terms and conditions not an issue, it’s not possible to do that, original
conditions will be retained. Trying to discourage customers to claim benefits
they’re not entitled to. There’s a small difference between Joint
Teams/Working. Management observe and evaluate mutual staff
performance. Encourages pushing boundaries but no clients to claim for
benefits not entitled to. Trying to achieve putting customer in ‘driving seat’.
Mary (Sunderland Council)
Contact centres not finding possible clients, lack of knowledge of benefits
within centres.
Paula (CPAG)
Welfare Rights aren’t dismissing Joint Teams per se, just the loss of
independent advice, supporting claims, and overpayments issues.
Keith (RNID)
Advising Pension service how best to service and communicate with
customers.
Calum (North Lanarkshire Council)
We want to be involved in Joint Working but are concerned about the
meaning of Joint Teams.
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Richard (Glasgow Council)
It’s necessary to clarify meaning of Joint Teams.
Neil Bateman
JT figures on benefit gains are not ‘value added score’ because they include
all the additional benefits that would have been gained anyway by DWP and
LA staff. Even so, some JT figures are very poor. PS claim that 69% of
English and Welsh LAs have agreed to set up JTs but surveys of these LAs
show that the figures are wildly incorrect and this was confirmed by a poll at a
NAFAO meeting recently. Several LAs listed as having JTs don’t have them.
DWP claim to House of Commons Work and Pensions Committee that AA
take up was better in JT areas has had to be withdrawn after it was
challenged.
Bashir (Tameside Welfare Rights)
Implementing a Joint at the moment, happy to include some staff from Local
Authority but not Welfare Rights workers.
Robert Hinds (Glasgow Council)
Claims entitlement is open to interpretation.
Alan (CA SSU)
Debate issues not just Local Authorities, also includes voluntary
organisations. We’re trying to avoid a bureaucratic decision making process.
Anne (Edinburgh Council)
Thank you to Pension Service for staying. Perhaps this info can improve
where we go from here.
Feedback, AOB & Workshop Resources
Competencies for welfare rights and debt advisers in Scotland attached
Welfare Rights competencies: history, process and methodology, email
feedback to Neil.
Local Housing Allowances: Pathfinder Project attached
The success of LHA and the facts
Shortened DLA Form Pilot
Specimen copies of the claim pack currently used by Glasgow DBC were
passed round and comments made, also gave some comparisons between
Glasgow and Edinburgh, who are using the normal claim pack. The rollout of
the shortened claim pack has been put on hold as the DLA and AA e-claim
form is currently being designed. At the moment we have no information on
when the shortened claim pack will be rolled out.
After the claim pack discussion we had a general (and at times lively
discussion) on the claims procedures.
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Thank you to workshop facilitators the workshops were well received.
Rights Advice Scotland meeting in Perth 12th August 2005.
Next Meeting/s
Wigan 2nd September 2005
London (Camden) 2nd December 2005
Nottingham 3rd March 2006
Thank you to host Edinburgh City Council and Vera Baxter
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