The Ta*aruvos Field

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‫בע''ה‬
Intro – P. I
1
2
3
4
5
6
Types of Blood
V2
Type
A: Description
B: Din
C: Notes
1
Dam
Hanefesh
Blood removes
nefesh from
animal
Kares
Shechita, blood letting
2
Dam
Ha’aivarim
Blood in flesh,
veins and organs
Lav
Lav
Mutar
3
Dam Plaita
Blood that comes
out of the meat
Lav
A Main reason for salting
4
Fish, Locust
Mutar
Only from kosher fish, locust
Maris ayin issues
5
Egg
Lav
Difference if found in white or yolk
6
Human
Mutar
Maris ayin issues
Spot in egg
‫דם בעין‬
‫דם שפירש ממקום למקום‬
‫דם שלא פריש‬
© 2013 E. Horowitz
1
‫בע''ה‬
‫‪Intro – P. I‬‬
‫‪Pesukim of Blood1‬‬
‫‪Purpose‬‬
‫‪Punishment kares‬‬
‫‪for‬‬
‫‪•Kadshim‬‬
‫‪•Chullin‬‬
‫‪•Blood of kisoy‬‬
‫‪Three for warnings‬‬
‫‪corresponding to the‬‬
‫‪three kares‬‬
‫‪punishments above.‬‬
‫מקור‬
‫פסוק‬
‫ויקרא ז‪:‬כז‬
‫כָּל‪-‬נֶפֶ ׁש‪ ,‬אֲ שֶׁ ר‪-‬ת ֹּאכַל כָּל‪ָּ -‬דם‪-‬וְ ִנכ ְְרתָּ ה הַ נֶפֶ ׁש הַ הו וא‪ ,‬מֵ עַ מֶ יהָּ ‪.‬‬
‫‪1‬‬
‫ויקרא יז‪:‬י‬
‫ו ְאו יׁש או יׁש מו בֵית י ושְ ָּראֵ ל‪ּ ,‬ומו ן‪-‬הַ גֵר הַ גָּר בְתֹוכָּם‪ ,‬אֲ ׁשֶ ר י ֹאכַל‪ ,‬כָּל‪-‬דָּ ם‪--‬‬
‫וְנָּתַ תו י פָּ נַי‪ַ ,‬בנֶפֶ ׁש הָּ א ֹ ֶכלֶת אֶ ת‪-‬הַ דָּ ם‪ ,‬וְהִ כ ְַרתִ א ֹּתָּ ּ‪ ,‬מו קֶ ֶרב עַ מָּ ּה‪.‬‬
‫‪2‬‬
‫כוי‪-‬נֶפֶ ׁש כָּל‪-‬בָּשָּ ר‪ ,‬דָּ מֹו ְבנַפְ ׁשֹו הּוא‪ ,‬ו ָּא ֹמַ ר ול ְבנֵי י ושְ ָּראֵ ל‪ ,‬דַ ם כָּל‪-‬בָּשָּ ר‬
‫ֹלא ת ֹאכֵלּו‪ :‬כוי נֶפֶ ׁש כָּל‪-‬בָּשָּ ר דָּ מֹו הו וא‪ ,‬כָּל‪-‬אֹּכְלָּ ו ִכ תָּרת‪.‬‬
‫‪3‬‬
‫ויקרא ג‪:‬יז‬
‫חֻ קַ ת עֹולָּם לְד ֹר ֹתֵ יכֶם‪ ,‬בְכ ֹל מֹוׁשְ ב ֹתֵ יכֶם‪--‬כָּל‪-‬חֵ לֶב וְכָּל‪ָּ -‬דם‪ֹ ,‬לא ת ֹּאכתלּו‪.‬‬
‫‪1‬‬
‫ויקרא ז‪:‬כו‬
‫וְכָּל‪ָּ -‬דם ֹלא ת ֹּאכְלּו‪ ,‬בְכ ֹל מֹוׁשְ ב ֹתֵ יכֶם‪ ,‬לָּעֹוף‪ ,‬ו ְ ַלבְהֵ מָּ ה‪.‬‬
‫‪2‬‬
‫עַ ל‪-‬כֵן ָאמַ ְרתו י ול ְבנֵי י ושְ ָּראֵ ל‪ ,‬כָּל‪-‬נֶפֶ ׁש מו ֶכם ֹלא‪-‬ת ֹאכַל דָּ ם; וְהַ גתר הַ גָּר‬
‫בְתֹו ְככֶׁם‪ֹ ,‬לא‪ֹּ -‬אכַל ָּדם‪.‬‬
‫‪3‬‬
‫ויקרא‬
‫יז‪:‬יד‪2‬‬
‫ויקרא יז‪:‬יב‬
‫‪One for lav of dam‬‬
‫‪ha’avarim‬‬
‫ויקרא‬
‫‪One for lav of dam‬‬
‫‪ha’tamtzis‬‬
‫דברים יב‪:‬כד‬
‫יז‪:‬יד‪2‬‬
‫כוי‪-‬נֶפֶ ׁש כָּל‪-‬בָּשָּ ר‪ ,‬דָּ מֹו ְבנַפְ ׁשֹו הּוא‪ ,‬ו ָּא ֹמַ ר ול ְבנֵי י ושְ ָּראֵ ל‪ַ ,‬דם כָּל‪-‬בָּ שָּ ר‬
‫ֹלא ת ֹּאכתלּו‪ :‬כוי נֶפֶ ׁש כָּל‪-‬בָּשָּ ר דָּ מֹו הו וא‪ ,‬כָּל‪-‬א ֹ ְכ ָּליו יוכ ֵָּרת‪.‬‬
‫‪4‬‬
‫ָארץ תו ׁשְ פְ כֶנּו‪ ,‬כַמָּ י ום‪.‬‬
‫ֹלא‪ ,‬ת ֹּאכְלֶׁ ּנּו‪ :‬עַ ל‪-‬הָּ ֶ‬
‫‪5‬‬
‫‪1. Kerisos, 4B, Rashi‬‬
‫‪2. This pasuk has two clauses and is thus used twice‬‬
‫‪2‬‬
‫‪© 2013 E. Horowitz‬‬
‫‪V2‬‬
‫בע''ה‬
Intro - III
Dam Ha’aivarim
Type
1
‫דם בעין‬
2
‫דם שפירש ממקום‬
‫למקום‬
3
‫דם שלא פריש‬
A: Description
B: Din
Blood collected in veins and
cavities
Must drain – salting does not help –
even if this blood is soaked into the meat
Blood that moved from place to
place
Assur
Blood in the meat
Mutar
‫דם שפירש ממקום למקום‬
V3
A – When did blood move?
B - Example
1
Rosh
Rashba
If it moved when alive
Bruise
2
Rosh
Rashba
Right after shechita
Spine is broken right after shechita. If the spine is broken
the blood that was ready to flow out is reabsorbed into the
meat. See Beir Heitiv (2) on 67:3.
3
Rashba
Even if blood moved after
shechita
Blood can move when we cook
A MAIN REASON WE SALT
© 2014 E. Horowitz
3
‫בע''ה‬
Intro - IV
Blood on
the
surface
Standard Kashering Procedure
Rinse, Salt, Rinse
Case
1. Surface blood was never washed off of a piece of meat.
2. Meat was salted
• Though salting extracts blood from meat, it can also cause blood to go
into the meat in certain circumstances.
3. Status of meat depends on status of surface blood
• If it is Dom Plaita, salt extracts it and meat is ok
• If it is Dom B’ain, salt cannot extract it and meat is assur.
Basically, forgetting the first rinse could be a big problem.
V2
© 2013 E. Horowitz
4
‫בע''ה‬
Intro - V
Cooked blood
(usually cooked with
the meat)
HEAVILY salted blood
has same law as
cooked blood.
Cooked Blood
A
B
1
R’ Chanina (R’ Zeiri) in Menachos
Eating cooked blood is not a transgression
D’Rabbanan
2
Aruch Hashulchan
Cooked blood cannot be offer on the mizbeach
D’Rabbanan
3
Most Rishonim, Achronim
4
Rashi in Chullin
Eating cooked heart that was not drained is kares
D’Oraisa
5
Rambam (Bais Yosef)
Cooking blood with milk is not assur for BB”CH.
Implies IS assur for the blood.
D’Oraisa
6
Mechaber(Shach, Pri Megadim)
7
Mechaber (Kaf HaChaim)
Mechaber lenient in cases with additional safek
D’Rabbanan
8
Mechaber (Yalkut Yosef)
Lenient if not sure non-Jew did last rinsing
D’Rabbanan
9
Rama
D’Rabbanan
D’Oraisa
D”Rabbanan
Pickled Blood (soaked in water for 24 hours) – This will be important if meat soaked too long
1
Pri Megadim
D’Oraisa
2
Chavas Da’as
D’Rabbana
© 2013 E. Horowitz
5
‫בע''ה‬
2
1
Intro - VII
Dom B’ain from another piece of meat
Dom Plaita from another
piece of meat
It’s own blood
1
2
Idi D'yiflot Dom Didai Yiflot Ma Shebala - K’bolo
Kach Polto
If meat 1st absorbed dom plaita from another piece, it
will expel it with its own blood. This will not work for
dom b’ain.
Idi D'tarid L'miflat Lo Bala
Dom B’ain from another piece of meat
It’s own blood
During salting meat will not absorb dom plaita from
another piece of meat. It will absorb dom b’ain.
•
•
•
•
Dom Plaita from another
piece of meat
After 18 minutes
Tzir, Mohel
Salty
No blood
•
•
•
•
V3
© 2014 E. Horowitz
First 18 minutes
Tzir,
Salty
Contains blood
6
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 1 – Hadacha Rishona
Ideally, the first washing has three steps
The order of the steps is not important except that
scrubbing is always (right?) before rinsing
1. Scrubbing to remove 2. Rinsing until the
the surface blood
water is clear
3. Soaking for ½
hour
Washing
© 2013 E. Horowitz
7
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 1 – P. 1
RAMA
Custom: Do not use for food
Din: B’diavad food ok
Less than 24 hours
First Soaking
More than 24 hours
© 2013 E. Horowitz
Din:
• Cannot use for food
• Meat is assur
• Can use for soaking
other meat
8
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 1 – P. 2
1
2
Who holds
3
1
Nature
Draws blood
out
2
Nature
Pushes blood in Smak,
throughout
Smag, IVH
meat
3
Heat
Cooks blood in
a klippah
© 2013 E. Horowitz
Everyone
This happens
before drawing
blood out.
Everyone
9
(1) According to ‫פרי מגדים‬, but according to the ‫חוות דעת‬
the ‫ סמ''ק‬holds that surface blood is ‫דם פליטה‬.
(2) Main reason.
(3) ‫לכתחילה‬.
A
Who
1
‫ר'א''ה‬
Shiur 1 – P. 3
B
C
D
E
F
G
H
I
Surface
Blood
Why Wash
How
much to
wash
Rewash if
cut before
salting
‫חומרה‬
‫קולה‬
If salted without first
washing
Who agrees
CLEAN
Good advice
in case meat
is salted too
long
Wash
Yes
Blood
absorbed too
long can’t
come out
Only need to ‫מבטל‬
surface blood
‫ אסור‬if salted 12 or
24 hours
‫פליטה‬
If salted less - OK to
wash and salt again
2
‫ר''ן‬
‫פליטה‬
SOFTEN
crust of meat
Wash and
vigorously
rub
No
Simple
washing is not
good enough
Don’t have to wash
again if cut before
salting
Wash & scrub or soak
to soften meat and
resalt
3
‫מרדכי‬
‫פליטה‬
CLEAN
Dirty surface
weakens salt
Wash
Yes
Have to wash
again if cut
before salting
Don’t need to soak
meat
Wash and resalt
4
‫מרדכי‬
‫י''א‬
‫פליטה‬
SOFTEN
meat to help
blood come
out
Soak ½
hour
No
Must soak for
½ hour
Don’t have to wash
again if cut before
salting
Wash, soak and resalt
5
‫סמ''ק‬
1‫באין‬
CLEAN
Salt drives
surface
blood into
meat while
salting
Wash
Yes
‫ אסור‬if not
washed and
cannot be
resalted
Don’t have to soak
‫אסור‬
6
‫רא''ש‬
‫פליטה‬
SOFTEN to
speed out
blood
extraction
Soak
No
Must soak
meat
Don’t have to wash
again if cut before
salting
Wash, soak and resalt
V2
‫בע''ה‬
Can be resalted.
2‫רמ''א‬
,‫מחבר‬
3‫רמ''א‬
,‫ שערי דורה‬,‫סמג‬
‫ זבחי צדק‬,‫בית יוסף‬
‫ בן איש חי‬,‫כף החיים‬
‫ מהרשל‬,‫אור לציון‬
‫בית יוסף‬et al.
)‫(בהפסד מרובה‬
10
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 1 – P. 7
The Rama (from the Tur)
If the butcher washed the meat then there is no need to wash it
again at home.
Question:
What does this teach us? What difference does it make who
washes it?
V4
1
Taz
• Can’t say butchers do not soak meat. Rama requires soaking.
• Might have thought there is a minhag to wash a second time.
2
Prisha
Taz (MBZ)
• Don’t have to salt immediately after washing
3
Bach
Shach
Don’t suspect butcher of doing a poor job
4
Bach
Don’t worry that meat got dirty again
5
Chavas Da’as
Since washed when warm, scrubbing and soaking not necessary
6
Pischei Tshuva
Only in a place where butchers customarily soak the meat
© 2013 E. Horowitz
11
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 1 – P. 8
Surface area of hoof
Meat & blood in hoof
Hoof is a kli she’aino
menukav
1 Rama
Wash again if you remove hooves
Now have a new surface
2 Shach
Nothing needed if hooves not removed
Blood does not move from hoof to leg
3 Shach
Meat in hooves is assur
Salted in a sealed kli
4 Shach
(Chavas Da’as)
If washing with hooves was not good
surface blood would assur leg
© 2013 E. Horowitz
12
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 1 – P. 9
What if not washed
correctly?
Scrub
1 Shach
Rinse
Soak
Salt
Wash
Cook

Soak again
2 Shach, Taz1
3 Rama1
4 RAE, Pri
Megadim1, 2
5 RAE2
OK, b’diavad








6 Shach, Rama
7 RAE
V4
1. From Shiur 2
2. Halacha L’ma’aseh
OK, b’hefsed m’rubeh
Soak it now


OK, B’diavad
OK, B’diavad


Soak it now
8 Chachmas Adam3
9 RAE
Din
OK in great need




3. With additional rinsing
© 2013 E. Horowitz
OK, B’diavad
Checks indicate what was done.
13
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 1 – P. 9
TIME
Salted less than 18
minutes before freezing
After thawed
Din
1
Shach
Sifsai Da’as, Chavas Da’as
Salt again for 18 minutes
OK, L’chatchila
2
Shach
Left in original salt for 18
minutes
OK, B’diavad
3
Pri Chadash
(Baer Haitaiv, R' Akiva Eiger, Machtzis Hashekel)
Soless L'mincha
Combine with first salting
for a total of 18 minutes
OK, L’chatchila
© 2013 E. Horowitz
14
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 2 – P. 15
Case
• First washing was not done
• Some salting was done
• Can you rewash and resalt?
?
How Much Salt
How Long
Din
1 Mechaber
Pri Megadim, Mechzik Bracha
Not specified
Not Specified
Can rewash and resalt
2 Yaish (Mechaber)
Maharshal
Not specified
Not Specified
Assur
3 Rama, Shach, Ashkenazim
Little
Less than 18 minutes
Rewash in hefsed m’rubeh
4 Bais Yosef
Zivchey Tzedke, Kaf Hachaim,
Ben Ish Chai, Ohr L’tzion
Not specified
Not Specified
Rewash in hefsed m’rubeh
© 2013 E. Horowitz
15
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 2 – P. 16
Case
• First washing was not done
• Some salting was done
• Can you roast it?
1 Darchei Moshe (Shach)
Shach
?
How Much Salt
How Long
Din
Lot
Less than 18 minutes
Can roast
2 Maharshal, Bach (Shach)
Can‘t roast
3 Taz
Can roast b’hefsed m’rubeh
4 Shach (PM)
Little
More than 18 minutes
Can Roast? (Safek)
5 Rama (Tiferes L’Moshe
(Pischai Tshuva))
Little
Less than 18 minutes
Can Roast (Only in this case)
6 Pri Megadim
V3
Can Roast
© 2013 E. Horowitz
16
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 2 – P. 16
Did this
Ca we do this?
?
superficially
washed
salted
OR
Hadacha
achrona
cook
Piece is 60x
surface
salted
Superficial Wash
60x Surface Area
1 Ra’ah, Smak
Ok to cook
Ok to cook
2 Mordechai
Ok to cook
Rewash and resalt
3 Shach, Taz
Ok to cook
Ok to cook
4 Rama (RAE)
Pri Megadim
Halacha
L’Ma’aseh
Rewash and resalt
Rewash and resalt
Notes
Only OK in hefsed m’rubeh if already cooked.
© 2013 E. Horowitz
17
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 2 – P. 17
Rinsed with very cold water and then salted
Unwashed meat salted
with washed meat

Can always rinse again (RAE)
• If rinsing is for surface blood
• Very cold water works as well as other water
• If rinsing is to soften the meat
• Nothing happened. Rinse again
If DIDN’T rinse again
• Taz, Shach – Mutar b’diavad
• R’ Akiva Eiger – Mutar b’hefsed m’rubeh
V3
© 2013 E. Horowitz
Dam b’ain
• Will go into unwashed meat
• Will not go into washed meat
• Salting dissolves before it gets there
• No longer Dam B’ain
• Idi D'tarid L'miflat Lo Bala or Idi
D’palait
18
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 3 – P. 22
A
Nominal sizes
B
Table Salt
Cooking Salt
C
Rock? Salt
1
R’ Dimi
2
R’ Dimi (Rambam)
Fine
Doesn’t work. Absorbed in meat.
Coarse
Davka
3
R’ Dimi (Rosh (BY))
Rosh
Fine
Preferred Sticks better
Coarse
Not Preferred Falls off
4
Tur
OK
OK
5
Rambam
(R’ Yerucham (BY))
Fine as Flour
Don’t use
Fine
Better
6
Mechaber
Too Fine
Don’t use
OK
Too Coarse
Don’t use
7
Rama
Most Rishonim (Gra)
Fine as Flour
OK if have nothing else
8
Shach, Taz
Fine as Flour
OK , B’diavad
Medium
Very Coarse
Grind
9
Sifsai Da’as
Fine as Flour
Don’t have to resalt
V2
Coarse
Very Coarse
Can use
© 2013 E. Horowitz
19
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 3 – P. 23
Table 1 – Partially Salted
1
Shach
People generally do not cover entire surface
2
Pri Megadim
Only OK in hefsed m’rubeh
3
Taz, Michas Ya’akov
Chavas Da’as, L’halacha
OK b‘diavad
Table 2 – Salting on one side
1
R’ Ashi
Pasuk infers salt both sides
2
Rashba, Ran
Rosh (Bais Yosef)
Mechaber, Yalkut Yosef
OK b’diavad
3
Rosh (Tur)
Need complete coverage on both sides
4
Mechaber (Darchei Moshe)
OK b’diavad even if not yet cooked
5
Others (Darchei Moshe)
Assur even b’diavad
6
Darchei Moshe, Zivchai Tzedek,
Ben Ish Chai, Kaf Hachaim
OK b’hefsed m’rubeh, kovod Shabbas
© 2013 E. Horowitz
20
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 3 – P. 24
Table 1 – Cutting open the lungs
1 Issur V’heter (Taz)
Open anything with cavities
So piece is salted on both sides
2 Taz
Open k’nokos
So piece is salted on both sides
3 Minchas Ya'akov (Mishb'tzos Zahav)
Don’t need to open lungs
Never exposed to air
4 Taz (Mishb'tzos Zahav)
Open k’nokos
Minhag
5 Rivash (Mishb'tzos Zahav)
Open k’nokos
Contains dom b’ain
Table 2 – Need to Cut Large Piece of Meat
1 Shach, Rashba
No
Salting works on large pieces
2 Mordechai
Yes
As seen by head case
3 Mordechai (Taz)
No
Different explanation of head case
Table 3 – Splitting Open Chicken
1
Shach
Don’t have to
Only have to cover most of surface
2
Mishb’tzos Zahav
Proper to do
In order to cover entire inner surface
Remove pieces of innards
3
Chachmas Adam
Kaf Hachaim
Cut most of
one side
Small hole is not enough
© 2013 E. Horowitz
Case
• Head was not salted on inside
• Mordechai (Shach)
• Assur
• Needed to cut head open
• Big pieces must be cut
• Mordechai (Taz)
• Head was already split
• Inside is really other side
• If not split, mutar
21
Shiur 3 – P. 25
Blood from 2nd
side pushing
into first side
Tzir from
1st side
‫בע''ה‬
Case
• Originally salted one side
• Within 12 hours salted second side
• MAIN CONCERN
• Will salt push blood from 2nd
side back into 1st side?
• One property of salt is that it
pushes blood into the meat.
12 hours
Salt 1st side
Salt 2nd side
OK to salt second side 12 hours after first side
V2
1
Rama, Taz, Gilyon Maharsha,
Aruch Hashulchan
Yes
Tzir still coming out of 1st side will stop blood from
second side
2
R’ Akiva Eiger
?
Salt on 1st side is now weak
Maybe blood from second side can push in
© 2013 E. Horowitz
22
Shiur 3 – P. 26
18 Min
12 hours
Salt
1st
side
Salt BOTH sides
‫בע''ה‬
Case
• Originally salted one side
• Then meat was washed
• After 18 minutes
• Before 12 hours
• Within 12 hours salt BOTH sides
• MAIN CONCERN
• Will the washing close the
‫נקבי פליטה‬
• Blood will not come out of 2nd
side
OK to salt second side 12 hours after salting first side AND rinsing
V2
1
Taz
Mishb’tzos Zahav (Hefsed
M’rubeh)
Yes
Rely on opinion that ‫ נקבי פליטה‬are still open.
2
Shach
No
‫ נקבי פליטה‬are closed. Must roast meat.
© 2013 E. Horowitz
23
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 3 – P. 26
Fat around
intestines
not salted
Rama (Shach)
Rama (Taz)
Intestines
12 hours
24 hours
Salt 1st side
Salted
inside
If meat is cooked
If meat is not cooked
1 Rama (Taz)
OK in hefsed m’rubeh
Never a hefsed – roast meat
2 Rama (Shach)
Shach, R’ Akiva
Eiger
Chachmas Adam
OK in hefsed m’rubeh
If don’t want it roasted, then salt it and cook it
Can salt fat on
outside.
No too much blood
in fat.
3 Taz
Can resalt (one side). Less blood than intestines case (even
after 24 hours)
4 Halacha
Hefsed M’Rubeh– Resalt
Otherwise - Roast
© 2013 E. Horowitz
24
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 3 – P. 28
Case 1
• Salted meat
• Cut within 18 minutes
• Must wash and salt new surface
• Shach – wash within 18 minutes
• Taz – wash before or after 18 minutes
Case 2
• Salted meat
• Cut after 18 minutes
• See chart
18 minutes
Salt 1st side
Case 2
What to do
Why
1 Taz, Shach
Nothing to redo
All blood is out, even from a large piece
2 Rambam
Blood always remains
© 2013 E. Horowitz
25
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 3 – P. 29
1 day = 40 mil
1 Mil
40 Mil (one day’s walking)
1 Mechaber (Shach)
18 minutes
720 minutes = 12 hours
2 Pri Chadash (Gilyon Maharsha)
Rambam
24 minutes
960 minutes = 16 hours
3 Gr’’a
22½ minutes
900 minutes = 15 hours
L’chatchila
B’diavad
Notes
1 Mishna Brura
22½ minutes
2 Chazon Ish
18 minutes
3 Rama
1 hour
18 minutes
1 hour is prevalent custom, Time to roast ‫קרבן פסח‬
4 Shach
1 hour
18 minutes
B’diavad if cooked
Otherwise, resalt
5 Dagul M’ravava
1 hour
½ Hour
B’diavad OK
If washed, don’t have to resalt
6 Yalkut Yosef
1 hour
© 2013 E. Horowitz
26
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 4 – Hadacha Achrona – P. 36
Basic Process
Should be done in this order
(unlike hadacha rishona)
1. Shake off
Salt
2. Rinse
3. Soak Once
© 2013 E. Horowitz
4. Soak Twice
27
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 4 – P. 33
Four opinions brought by Bais Yosef
1
Smak
• One is enough
2
Rosh
Tur
• One to remove salt and blood
• Another to remove blood that
remains after first washing
3
Hagos Ashiri
• An extra one for water that mixed
from the first into the second
4
• As many as needed until the water
runs clear (could be more or fewer
than other opinions)
Rambam
© 2013 E. Horowitz
28
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 4 – P. 34
Shaking before soaking
R’ Dimi
Shook off salt
Source for shaking off salt
Tur
Shake off salt before soaking
Like R’ Dimi
Rashba
Shake off coarse salt
Rub off fine salt
Salt will drive blood back into
meat
Don’t have to shake off fine salt
Gets dissolved in water
Rashi
Mordechai
© 2013 E. Horowitz
29
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 4 – P. 34
How to do Hadacha
Achrona
1
2
3
Mechaber
Rama (1st reading)
Rama (Shach – 2)
B
C
D
E
F
G
Shake
Rinse
Wash in
Air
Wash in
Air
Soak
Soak
Soak
























Rama
(2nd option, Shach – 1)


4
5
A
Rama (Taz)


6
7
Mechaber (Shach – 1 )

8
9
10
Rama (Shach – 1)









11
V2

12
L’Halacha
13
Mechaber , Rama – b’diavad (Shach)



© 2013 E. Horowitz
30
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 4 – P. 37
Case:
• Slaughtered animal
• Chullin prepared with stringencies of Kadshim
• No blood came out
• Not ‫מוכשר‬
• Can eat with tamei hands
Using fruit juice
V2
Question (Implied by Tosefos):
• Soaking it during salting will ‫ מכשיר‬the meat
Answers:
1. Don’t salt, roast
2. Use fruit juice for washing
A
B
‫הדחה ראשונה‬
‫הדחה אחרונה‬
C
1
Tosefos (Taz, Shach)


Need to use it for both not to machshir
2
Tosefos (R’ Akiva Eiger)


‫ הדחה ראשוה‬is to remove blood
3
Rama


Seems to learn from Tosefos
4
Rama (R’ Akiva Eiger)


‫ הדחה ראשוה‬is to soften meat,
Juice does not work
5
Pri Chadash


Only B’diavad
Rashba, Ran answers Mishna case by
roasting only
6
Kraisi, Yad Yehudah,
Aruch Hashulchan,
Halacha l’ma’aseh


Only B’diavad
© 2013 E. Horowitz
31
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 5 – P. 42
Ch’n’n
1 k’zayis
issur
Issur
Davuk
Ch’n’n
Need 60x5 = 300
No Ch’n’n
Need 60x1 including the
original 4 heter
4 k’zaysim
heter
Issur Davuk
If the issur is davuk to one piece, that piece
becomes completely assur and 60 is needed
against it
EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE ALL COOKING
AT THE SAME TIME
© 2013 E. Horowitz
32
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 5 – P. 43
Case:
• Cooked meat without hadacha achrona
• Bloody salt is left on surface of meat
• Mechaber says meat is OK if 60x salt on surface of meat.
Why do we need 60 against the salt rather than just 60 against the blood in the salt?
How much needs to be mevatel
1 Mechaber (Taz)
2
Mechaber (Shach,
R’ Akiva Eiger)
3 Rashal (Taz)
Salt is assur due to ch’n’n
60x Salt
Mechaber does not hold ch’n’n by sha’ar issurim
Rather, don’t know how much blood is in salt
60x Salt
Salt is davuk to meat
• Taz says salt is not davuk
• Mechaber doesn’t hold by davuk anyway
60x Meat
© 2013 E. Horowitz
33
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 5 – P. 43
Meat without
hadacha achrona
Meat & Food less
than 60x Salt
Kli Sheini
Din
S’vora
1 Rama
Assur
Salt with tzir is hot enough to cook
2 Maharshal (Taz, Shach)
Mutar
3
Maharshal
(Mishb’tzos Zahav)
Should be assur
Kli shaini does cause absorption
4 Taz
Mutar
Salted blood is d’rabbanan
5 Shach
OK b’hefsed m’rubeh
© 2013 E. Horowitz
34
‫בע''ה‬
Cooking on Shabbas
(Gemorah Shabbas 42B)
Shiur 5 – P. 44
NOTE: This has
nothing to do with
salting to removing
blood.
WE learn from this that
bull meat does not cook in
a kli rishon off the fire.
What about its blood?
Salt in a kli rishon on
fire is assur on
Shabbas because of
cooking.
Salt in a kli rishon OFF
fire is mutar because it is
the same as bull meat.
Everyone knows bull meat is
mutar in a kli rishon off the
fire on Shabbas because it
needs a lot of cooking.
Din
S’vora
Can salt meat
Does not cook in a kli rishon off the fire.
Blood does not get absorbed
2 Toras Chatas
Cannot salt meat
Meat does not cook but blood does.
3 Minchas Yaakov (Mishb’tzos Zahav)
Can salt in hefsed m’rubeh
1
Rabbeinu Yerucham (Toras Chatas(Taz))
Taz
© 2013 E. Horowitz
35
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 6 – P. 47
The water on
my apron?
It’s from
washing the
meat.
?
A
B
C
D
Knows
Jewish
Customs
‫מסיח לפי תומו‬
‫יוצא‬
‫ונכנס‬
‫קפילא‬


Need all

Need A and either B or C
(Shach) ‫קפדי אנקיותא‬
1
Mechaber (pshat)

2

3
Smak (Tur), Rama, Taz, Mechaber
(Rama), Shach
4
Riva (Tur)
5
Smag (Beis Yosef)
Mechaber (Shach)
Kaf HaChayim, Yalkut Yosef
6
7
8
Smak (Bach, Drisha)
Smak (Taz, Shach)


E
Notes



‫איתחזיק איסורא‬


B and specifically NOT A

Ok if he knows customs

© 2013 E. Horowitz
36
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 6 – P. 50
Oh, I’ll be ready
after I am done
kashering these
dishes.
1
2
3
Mechaber (Shach)
Rama (Shach)
Rama(Taz)
A
B
C
D
Knows
Jewish
Customs
‫מסיח לפי‬
‫תומו‬
‫יוצא‬
‫ונכנס‬
‫קפילא‬
E
Notes


‫איתחזיק איסורא‬


Mas’la’t better than chazaka
(No ‫)קפדי אנקיותא‬


© 2013 E. Horowitz
37
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 6 – P. 50
I’ll have to wash
that pot over
there since the
chicken fell into
it.
Case
•Unsalted chicken
•Washed in hot water to help remove feathers
•Kli rishon - assur
•Kli sheini - mutar
•Non-Jew says (mas’la’t) used kli sheni
?
kli
rishon
1
2
3
V2
Mechaber (Shach)
Rama (Shach)
Rama(Minchas Yaakov)
kli
sheni
A
B
C
D
Knows
Jewish
Customs
‫מסיח לפי‬
‫תומו‬
‫יוצא‬
‫ונכנס‬
‫קפילא‬






© 2013 E. Horowitz
E
Notes
Same as previous case
‫איתחזיק איסורא‬
Easier to use a kli rishon
No chazaka of issur
38
‫בע''ה‬
?
Shiur 6 – P. 51
Case 1
• Not sure if salted meat at all
• Then meat was cooked
Case 2
• Certainly salted one side
• Not sure if salted other side
• Then meat was cooked
Case 1
Case 2
Notes
1
Taz
Mutar
Safek d’rabbanan l’kulo
2
Shach
Assur
Not possible to forget so much work
3
Mishb’tzos Zahav
Muter b’Hefsed M’rubah
4
Shach (R’ Shabsi Katz
(Pischai Tshuva))
Mutar
© 2013 E. Horowitz
Could have forgotten this minor
amount of work
39
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 6 – P. 51
Comparison of the Taz
Did servant wash meat?
Did woman salt meat?
1
Issur D’Rabbanan
Unwashed Meat
Unsalted Meat
2
Chazaka
Meat started unwashed
Meat started unsalted
3
Reason to asser
Servant usually would not do
extra work
4
Mitigation
Told us he washed it mas’la’t
5
Reason to Matir
safek d'rabbanan l'kula
safek d'rabbanan l'kula
Main point: Since in the case of the servant we can matir when there are two
extra steps (reason to asser and a mitigation) then certainly we can matir the
case of the woman which does not have those two extra steps.
© 2013 E. Horowitz
40
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 7 – P. 56
Case
Cooked meat without salting
One egg-size of
blood comes
from salting one
chicken
Issues
1. How much to mevatel the issur
60x Blood
60x Meat
2. Is the meat mutar?
How to mevatel to permit
other food
Status of
meat
1
Mechaber
Food = 60x Meat
Mutar
2
Yeish (Rama)
Food = 60x Meat
Assur
3
Rama
4
Rosh, Tur,
Mechaber
Food = 60x Meat
Ravad
Food AND meat = 60x
blood that would come
out by salting
5
Notes
‫דם שפירש ממקום למקום‬
OK hefsed
m’rubeh
Mutar
Blood that came out is batel - and 1. Blood that remains does not move – o r2. Even If moved, not assur (MBZ)
© 2013 E. Horowitz
41
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 7 – P. 56
Issur Davuk - and how it applies to blood inside meat.
‫ממהר לבלוע‬
In general
The davuk piece gets the issur first
before everything else. Therefore
can’t use rest of food to mevatel
issur.
Blood in meat
Blood moves around in meat and
does not come out )Chavas Da’as(
‫שמא היה פעם אחת חוץ לרוטב‬
The davuk piece may have been
removed from the food, with the issur
in it and thus did not have the benefit
of the other food to mevatel the issur.
© 2013 E. Horowitz
If the meat was lifted out during
cooking, then the blood cooks into the
meat just like an issur davuk.
42
Shiur 7 – P. 59
‫בע''ה‬
Comparing Blood in meat to milk in k’chal
Blood in Meat
Milk in K’Chal
Notes
1
Ravad
Food + Meat = 60x Blood
Can estimate how much blood
2
Rambam
Rosh, Tur (Taz)
Food = 60x Meat
Food + K’chal = 60x K’chal
K’chal is d’rabbanan – can include issur with
heter.
Blood is d’oraisa. Can’t include assur meat.
3
Rashba, Ran (Taz)
Pri Chadash
Food + Meat = 60x Meat
Food + K’chal = 60x K’chal
K’chal is heter mixed with milk.
So too, meat is heter mixed with blood.
4
Rosh, Tur (MBZ)
Food = 60x Meat
Food + K'chal = 60x K'chal
Meat has actual blood
K’chal just taste of milk. (chalav sh’chuta?)
5
Rosh, Tur (Pri Chadash,
Nekudas Hakesef
(MBZ))
Food = 60x Meat
Food + K'chal = 60x K'chal
Blood is assur for a bit because of parush.
6
Mechaber (MBZ)
Halacha L’Ma’aseh
Food = 60x Meat
Note: Other than the Ravad, the volume of blood is the volume of the meat. Since we do not know how much
blood is in the meat, we choose the worst case and say that that the volume of blood is no more than the volume
of the meat. The same applies to the k’chal and the milk that it contains.
V2
© 2013 E. Horowitz
43
‫בע''ה‬
Melicha Mishaps – Overview
Various possibilities for messing up have been discussed. This chart
identifies where each issue is discussed.
A
Hadacha
Rishona
1
V2
B
C
D
E
F
Salting
Hadacha
Achrona
Cooked
Simon
Shiur



69:11
7
69:2
2

69:11
7

69:9
5
2


3


4



44
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 8 – P. 64
Three-day-old Meat Basic Facts
3 days computed ‫מעת לעת‬, i.e. 72 hours
1
2
Tur
Can’t salt
Salt will not completely draw out enough blood
3
Roasting will draw out most of the blood
4
T’shuvos HaRosh
(Bais Yosef)
5
Trumas Hadeshen
Can’t cook meat after roasting
Remaining blood will come out
6
Shach
B’divad, meat is mutar if cooked after roasting
Remain blood is ‫דם שלא פירש‬
© 2013 E. Horowitz
45
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 8 – P. 65
Taz – First Case
• First salted in ‫כלי מנוקב‬
• Then salted in ‫כלי שאינו מנוקב‬
• Concern: Tzir in second kli will assur meat
1
Rashal, Taz
Threeday-old
meat
Tzir
‫כלי מנוקב‬
‫כלי שאינו מנוקב‬
Affect of first salting
Din of Second Salting
Any blood that can come
out by salting will come
out with this salting.
Mutar
Tzir wont assur meat, no more blood comes out
But pickling will assur meat
Is like cooking
Blood will move within meat
2
V3
Nekudas
Hakesef
Salting will remove some
blood but more could
come out with more
salting.
Assur
The second salting causes blood to move within
the meat.
© 2013 E. Horowitz
46
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 8 – P. 66
Taz – Second Case
• Salted in ‫כלי מנוקב‬
• Fresh unsalted meat salted with 3-day-old meat
• Concern – blood from fresh meat absorbed by old meat
• Fresh meat is mutar since any blood it absorbed from the
old meat will come out during salting (‫)כבולעו כך פולטו‬1.
Fresh
Unsalted
meat
Threeday-old
meat
‫כלי מנוקב‬
Affect of first salting
1
Taz
Rama (MBZ)
Pri Megadim
Assur
Salt extracts minimal blood from 3-day-old meat
Can’t say ‫כבולעו כך פולטו‬
Absorbed blood does not come out of meat EVEN BY ROASTING
2
Nekudas
Hakesef
Mutar
Salt extracts minimal blood from 3-day-old meat
Enough to say ‫כבולעו כך פולטו‬
Absorbed blood does come out of meat
1. Note that this is only one explanation. We will learn in 70:6, Shiur 17 that there are several opinions as to why we can salt multiple
pieces of meat together.
V2
© 2013 E. Horowitz
47
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 8 – P. 66
Taz – Third Case1
• Salted in ‫כלי מנוקב‬
• Fresh salted, washed meat salted with 3-day-old meat
• Concern – Minimal blood from old meat absorbed by fresh
meat
Threeday-old
meat
Fresh
Salted,
washed
meat
‫כלי מנוקב‬
Affect of first salting
1
Taz (MBZ)
Mutar
1. Maybe no blood came out of old meat
2. Even if there is blood, not absorbed by fresh meat (‫)מישרק שריק‬
3. Even if absorbed, ‫ נקבי פליטה‬did not close in fresh meat
Don’t hold any of these, but can use them in combination
2
R’ Akiva Eiger
Assur
1. Note that the third case of the Taz is in kli with no holes. However, all agree that in that case all of the meat is assur.
The discussion in the notes focuses on the implication of the Taz from that case to one in which the kli does have
holes.
V2
© 2013 E. Horowitz
48
Shiur 8 – P. 67
‫בע''ה‬
Threeday-old
meat
Case
• Three-day-old meat was salted and then roasted
• Usually hold that we cannot cook 3-day-old meat
• Question – Can we cook it in this case?
V2
1
Mechaber
OK B’diavad
2
‫( קובץ ישן‬Taz)
Can cook
3
Minchas Yaakov (R' Akiva Eiger, Pri Megadim )
Cannot Cook
4
Pri Megadim
Can cook in a hefsed m’rubeh
© 2013 E. Horowitz
49
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 8 – P.68
Almost 3 Days
Almost 3 Days
soak or rinse
Extending the 3-day limit by soaking the meat.
How to
Condition
1 Yaish (Agor (Bais Yosef))
Mehadrin – soak 2 hours
B’diavad
2 Mechaber
Soak
3 Issur V’Heter (Taz)
Rinse and remove veins
4 Masas Binyamin (Sifsai Da’as, Chavas Da’as)
Rinse
5 Minchas Ya’akov
Rinse
OK, only if cooked
6 Toras Chatas (Shach), Pri Megadim
Soak
Shas Hadchak
7 Shach, Minhag (Kaf Hachaim)
Soak
L’chatchila
B’diavad
How much less than 3 days?
V2
1
Mechaber (Taz)
½ hour
2
Mishb’tzos Zahav (b’diavad)
Any Amount
3
Shach, Kaf Hachaim
© 2013 E. Horowitz
50
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 8 – P. 70
1
3 Days
Case
• Meat frozen in middle of 3-day period
• Question: Does the time the meat was frozen extend the 3-day time to harden the meat?
Does freezing extend time?
S'vora
1
Sifsai Da’as
No
Can’t soak frozen meat
Implies doesn’t extend time either
2
Aruch Hashulchan
Yes
Frozen meat is like wood
3
Minchas Yaakov (Baer Haitiv )
No
Though frozen in a block of ice is not kavush
4
Many poskim (Yalkut Yosef)
Yes
B’diavad
5
Igress Moshe
Yes
B’diavad
• 3-days is only a chumra
• But machmirim are more chashuv than makilim
1. Note that the picture of the ice cube is to denote that the meat is frozen and not necessarily frozen in a block of ice.
The case of the Minchas Yaakov is specifically when the meat is in a block of ice.
V2
© 2013 E. Horowitz
51
Shiur 9 – P.71
Step 1
Step 2
‫בע''ה‬
Three-day-old
meat
Step 3
Fresh meat
Notes
3-day old meat was
salted.
Shach requires separate
pots
Mechaber
(Shach Case 1)
Not Salted, Mixed up
Salted together
Can cook
3-day old meat was
salted.
Shach requires separate
pots
Mechaber
(Shach Case 2)
Salted separately
Mixed up
Can cook
Even if unsalted meat
was less than 3 days old
Taz
Only two salted
Mixed up
Can cook
Fresh piece not salted.
Once cooked is batel
b’rov with others. Don’t
need 60.
Rama
One not salted
V2
Cooked Separately
Mixed Up – Batel B’Rov
© 2013 E. Horowitz
52
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 9 – P. 72
Why should 3-day old meat be batel?
1.
‫ דבר שיש לו מתירין‬is not batel? – (Can roast)
1.
2.
3.
2.
‫ ראויה להתכבד‬is not batel?
1.
3.
Rama – No d’sh’l’m by issur balua
Shach – Issur is to cook, tzli does not help that
Rashal (MBZ) – Doesn’t happen by itself
Blood is assur and that is not ch’r’l
Taste of blood will spread to meat? (Shach)
1.
2.
3.
Mechaber – Concern about blood is only a chumrah (Shach assumes old meat was
salted)
Rely on Ravad. Can estimate blood which is very little.
However, Shach says must cook each piece separately
© 2013 E. Horowitz
53
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 9 – P.72
Step 1
Step 2
Step 3
Notes
Fresh piece not salted.
Once cooked is batel
b’rov with others. Don’t
need 60.
Rama
One not salted
Cooked Separately
Mixed Up – Batel B’Rov
Shach’s Question:
• Bitul b’rov only helps by yavesh b’yavesh, min b’mino
• Bloody meat is yavesh b’yavesh but min b’aino mino
• Should need 60
• Answers
1. Shach
•
Rama is lav davka
•
Need 60 more than largest piece
•
Minchas Yaakov (Sifsai Da’as)
Since uncooked blood is d’oraisa, we are
machmir (see below)
2.
V4
Nekudas haKesef & Dagul Meravava
•
Cooked blood is d’rabbanan
•
Rov sufficient even for min b’aino mino
© 2013 E. Horowitz
1
‫לח בלח‬
2
'‫יבש ביבש דא‬
A
B
‫מן במנו‬
‫מן באינו מנו‬
60
‫גזירה‬
60
‫עיקר הדין‬
Rov
60
‫גזירה‬
(Gilyon
Maharsha)
3
'‫יבש ביבש דר‬
Rov, Safek
)‫(ש''כ‬
Rov
(NKH, DM)
54
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 9 – P. 73
“dirt” blood
Option 1: Roast
Meat “dirty” with blood
Soaks for 24 hours
V3
Option 2 – If water was 60x meat:
Salt (MBZ) then cook
Concern
Answer
1
Blood in meat now cooked
Kavush is not quite like cooking
2
Dom b’ain absorbed into meat
Surface blood mixes with water
Surface blood is batel in 60x by the water
3
Blood in meat moved around
Kavush is maflit blood
Blood not hard – can be salted
Opinions
Less than 60x
water
More than 60x
water
1
Mechaber, Sephardim
Roast
Roast or cook
2
Rama, Taz
Ashkenazim b’hefsed m’rubeh
Assur
Roast or cook
3
Shach (Sifsai Da’as)
Ashkenazim w/o hefsed m’rubeh
Assur
Roast
4
Rashal
Assur
Assur
© 2013 E. Horowitz
55
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 10 – P. 78
Preferred methods for salting meat
Mechaber
‫כלי מנוקב‬
Straw or Twigs
Inclined Plane
Rama
Smooth board
Don’t block holes
Chumrah
Straw in pot under meat
Chumra
Main concern: Do not want the blood to collect near the meat
V2
© 2013 E. Horowitz
56
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 10 – P. 79
Using HOT, solid salting kli for COLD food
Question: Does the dish make the other
food assur?
Salted meat in a
‫כלי שאינו מנוקב‬
(Shouldn’t do this)
V2
1
Shach
2
Machtzis Hashekel
3
Dagul Marvava
Put other food in
same dish when
the dish is hot.
Shach first assumes that the dish is hot
when the other food is placed in it.
A
B
C
Food is dry
Food is moist
Food is liquid
Remove klipa from where
the food touched the kli.
Remove a n’tila from where
the food touched the kli.
Need 60x volume in food
against klipa of entire kli.
Need 60x volume in food
against klipa of entire kli.
Need 60x against klipa of
kli that touched the food.
© 2013 E. Horowitz
57
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 10 – P. 79
Why the Shach says the case of the Rama is that the
food is hot and not that the pot is hot.
1.
The Mechaber speaks about hot food and not a hot pot.
2.
The law by a hot pot with wet food is that 60 is needed against the
klippah of the whole pot. The wording of the Rama suggests that 60 is
needed only against where the food touches the pot.
3.
The law of netila by wet food is not discussed by the Rama.
© 2013 E. Horowitz
58
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 10 – P. 80
Using COLD, solid salting
kli for HOT food
Question: Does the dish make the other
food assur?
Salted meat in a
‫כלי שאינו מנוקב‬
(Shouldn’t do this)
Shach
Put other, hot
food in same dish.
Shach then decides that the food is hot
when placed in a cold dish.
A
B
C
Food is dry
Food is moist
Food is liquid
Remove klipa from where
the food touched the kli.
Remove klipa from where the
food touched the kli.
Need 60x volume in food against
part of klipa that touched food.
© 2013 E. Horowitz
59
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 10 – P. 80
Tatah Gavar when
using HOT, solid salting
kli for COLD food
Klippa of mlk
Hot meat
Klipa of food
Cold pot
that was
used for
salting meat
Cold milk
Hot food
1
Hot falls into cold
Hot meat into cold milk
Hot food into cold pot
2
‫תתאה גבר‬
Milk cools down meat
Pot cools down food
3
‫אדמיקר ליה בלע‬
Klipa of milk is assur
(meat too)
Klipa of food is assur
4
Klipa is dispersed
Batel even without 60
Not batel
Rama requires 60x klippa of pot
In our case need 2 kulos, so we are machmir
1
Is klipa batel?
R”T – Yes
Rivah – No
2
Is pot cold after washing?
Others – Yes
Ravad - No
© 2013 E. Horowitz
60
‫בע''ה‬
Using COLD, solid salting
kli for COLD food
Shiur 10 – P. 81
Rishonim
Salted meat in a
‫כלי שאינו מנוקב‬
Put other, cold
food in same dish.
Using shechita knife
for cold food.
A
B
C
Kli
Those who say knife needs Those who say knife needs
washing
only wiping
Rashba
Wiping enough
Knife is different Pressure
of knife (cutting the meat)
Knife and kli same
Ramban
Must wash
Knife and kli same
Kli absorbed issur
Knife didn’t
Ravad
Must wash
Note: Rashba and Rambam say that both opinions
by the knife agree with them by the kli.
V2
© 2013 E. Horowitz
61
‫בע''ה‬
Using COLD, solid salting
kli for COLD food
Shiur 10 – P. 81
Achronim
Mechaber
• Can use for cold by wiping only
• Some say need to wash
Salted meat in a
‫כלי שאינו מנוקב‬
(Shouldn’t do this)
A
Put other, cold
food in same dish.
B
C
Mechaber Stam
Mechaber Yeish
Wiping is enough Need to wash
Taz
Rashba
Kli is cold
R’ Akiva Eiger Rashba
Kli is cold
V2
Ravad
Kli is hot
Ramban
Even if cold
© 2013 E. Horowitz
If kli is hot, how can
Rama say that we can
salt in it again?
62
‫בע''ה‬
Using COLD, solid, clay
salting kli for COLD
food
Shiur 10 – P. 82
Salted meat in a
‫כלי שאינו מנוקב‬
(Shouldn’t do this)
Put other, cold
food in same ‫כלי‬.
A
B
Other kelim
Kli Cheres
Can be used
without washing
Must wash to
use
Toras Chatas (Bais Meir) Can be used
Minchas Yaakov (REA)
without washing
Can’t be used
even if
washed
Toras Chatas
(Shach)
V2
© 2013 E. Horowitz
C
• Changes text of Toras
Chatas.
• Can’t use for cold so wont
come to use for hot.
63
‫בע''ה‬
Shiur 10 – P.82
Preserving meat in a
solid salting kli
Salted meat in a
‫כלי שאינו מנוקב‬
(Shouldn’t do this)
V2
Same pot
DIFFERENT SALTED meat
Salting now for preservation
Sit for 24 hours
A: Salting for preservation
B: S’vora
1
Taz
Assur
Salt will not take blios out of kli
Pickling will take out blios
2
Nekudas Hakesef
Mutar
Blios will be pagum in 24 hours
3
Minchas Ya’akov
(R’ Akiva Eiger)
Assur
Abundance of salt used for
preservation will ‫מחילה לשבח‬
© 2013 E. Horowitz
64
‫בע''ה‬
How long to
make it assur?
Shiur 10 – P. 83
Salted meat in a
‫כלי שאינו מנוקב‬
(Shouldn’t do this)
A: Show long
B: S’vora
Same pot
DIFFERENT SALTED meat
Salting now for preservation
Sit for 24 hours
1
Drisha
Magen Avraham (RAE)
Time to heat
water on fire
Tzir pickles faster than water
2
Taz, Shach
24 Hours
Tzir pickles food fast but not kelim
3
R’ Akiva Eiger
Immediately
• In general, salt does not take out blios from kli
• Kosher salty food does not take issur from treif non-salty food
• But kosher salty LIQUID will take blios out
‫טהור מלוח וטמא תפל‬
not kosher
kosher
Kosher food remains mutar.
© 2013 E. Horowitz
65
Shiur 10 – P. 83
‫בע''ה‬
Using a proper salting
kli for HOT food
Rishonim
Salted meat in ‫כלי מנוקב‬
Done correctly
Use for hot food
Chullin 111B: A bowl used to salt meat is assur to use for hot food.
A: Gemorah’s Case
Assur
1
Rosh
2
Ran
3
Rabbeinu
Peretz
‫כלי שאינו מנוקב‬
‫כלי מנוקב‬
‫כלי חרס מנוקב‬
B: Therefore
‫כלי מנוקב‬
C: S’vora
Mutar
‫מישרק שריק‬
Blood slides off kli
Assur
Can use again for meat since either1
‫•איידי דטריד לפלוט לא בלע‬
‫•אין מליחה לכלים‬
‫ – חרס‬Assur
Others – Mutar
‫ מישרק שריק‬for other than clay keilim
1. Answering implied question. If you can’t use the kli for cold food, how can you use it to salt meat after it was used once?
© 2013 E. Horowitz
66
Shiur 10 – P. 83
‫בע''ה‬
Using a proper salting
kli for HOT food
Salted meat in ‫כלי מנוקב‬
Done correctly
Achronim
Use for hot food
A: Regular Kli
B:Kli Cheres
1 Rama
Mutar Only B'diavad
Mutar B'diavad
2 Rashal
Mutar L'chatchila
Assur even b’diavad
3 Shach
Mutar Only B'diavad
Assur even b’diavad
Using a proper clay
salting kli for COLD
food
This is permitted.
Salted meat in a
‫כלי חרס מנוקב‬
© 2013 E. Horowitz
Put other, cold
food in same ‫כלי‬.
67
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