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Esselor.com From WBUR Boston and NPR, I'm Tom Asprick, and this
is on point.
00:00:52,800
There were service dogs, and everybody understood that. Highly
trained animals fully certified, helping, let's say, the blind. Now we have
emotional support animals brought along anywhere, everywhere, to
calm and comfort.
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And that's great, but the lines are getting fuzzy. Sometimes it's turning
into a "pets on a plane" situation, and not just dogs. This hour on point,
dogs, cats, ducks, pigs, snakes.
00:01:19,680
We're talking about the proliferation of emotional support animals. You
can join us on air or online, where this conversation is always on, do
you use one? Have you found one as your neighbor on a plane?
00:01:32,600
Or 1-800-423-8255? That's 800-423-TALK, or join us any time at
onpointradio.org, or on Twitter and Facebook at onpointradio. Joining
me first today from Asheville, North Carolina is Hal Herzog, columnist
for Psychology
00:01:49,440
Today who writes the "Animals and Us" column, focuses on the
psychology of human animal interactions. He's also a professor
emeritus of Psychology at West Carolina University. Hal, thank you very
much for being with us.
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Oh, I'm so glad to be here, Tom. Can you walk us through some
distinctions here? The old-fashioned service dog, and how, or is it, or
how is it different from the emotional support animal?
00:02:11,680
Okay, that's a great question. Service dogs, people think of them as a
guide dogs, for example. These were the first service dogs guide dogs
for the blind, and then they expanded to hearing dogs that would help
people, for example, with deaf to know that the phone was ringing or
that the fire alarm was on it, fire alarm was on smoke alarm was on it,
their house.
00:02:32,720
And increasingly, he's being expanded so that we know psychiatric
service dogs. But what it's, what, what distinguishes a service dog is it
has to be trained to do a specific task. For example, guide you through
the streets, if it's a person that's got a, for example, an anxiety attack,
sort of get them away from a social situation that might produce anxiety.
00:03:01,120
An emotional support animal, in the other hand, does not have to be
trained. And it basically provides, had to provide emotional support. And
the problem with that is that if you ask most pet owners, if their dog
provides them with emotional support, their pet provides them with
emotional support, they'll say, yeah, so the question is, what makes it,
you know, if every pet is emotional support animal, what sort of legal
status, the special emotional support animals have?
00:03:31,120
Well, what law pertains here, how? Because we see airlines and hotels
and restaurants and grocery stores being fairly open to accommodating
emotional support animals as far as I can see. Are they required to
under law? How does the law come into this? Okay, this is, this is
where, this is where things get complicated. There's actually three sets
of federal laws.
00:03:53,120
One is the Americans with Disabilities Act, which is governed by the
Justice Department. That concerns access to public places, for
example, restaurants or, you know, train stations or museums or
hospitals. They only recognize service animals. On the other hand, the
Air Carrier Access Act is maintained by the Department of
Transportation. And they recognize both service animals and emotional
support animals. And then finally, there's the Fair Housing Act, which is
administered by HUD, which is access to, let's say, for example, no pet
apartments or condos and things like that.
00:04:31,120
And they also recognize both emotional support animals and service
animals. See, these three, these three different federal regulations, and
they sometimes conflicting rules. So if I show up at the gate to board an
airplane with my dog, do they just wave me right on or do I have to
show something? Okay, now let's say if you want to, okay, so if you
want to bring your dog on as an emotional support animal, you've got to
run through some hoops.
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And the first group, whoop is that you have to have a letter from a,
quote, license, mental health professional or physician saying that you
have a recognized psychiatric disorder, and that you need the animal to
be with you on the plane, or to hang out with you when you're at your
destination. So you've got to have that letter. You've got second, you've
got to give that letter. You got to provide a copy of that letter to the
airline 48 hours in advance. Okay.
00:05:27,120
And that should, and that will entitle you not the other is the animal has
to fit certain requirements in the end here, the airlines have some,
some, some leeway. And so for example, American Airlines says the
animal has to fit underneath the, it has to be small enough to fit
underneath your, under your seat or to sit in your lap. Okay.
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The other thing about about emotional support animals, the air carrier
access act is you were quite correct. It doesn't just apply to dogs.
Service animals have to be either dogs believe it or not or even
miniature horses. Under the law.
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I got in there, but hello. I would love to know, but I recently looked this
often the horse has to be under 30 inches, under 32 inches at the
shoulder and way less than 100 pounds, but I would love to know how
that got in there. On the other hand, emotional support animals can be
any animal could be a tarantula. It could be a snake. It can be a cat.
00:06:27,120
Go ahead. We'll hear that people are exercising that. What did your
friends see or have? What my friends saw was a duck. A duck named,
duck named Daniel, he took a picture of duck named Daniel and it went
viral. The duck had a, the duck had a diaper on to keep from messing
the plane up, but it waddled up and down the aisles during the flight and
much to every one's amusement. An emotional support duck.
00:06:51,120
And then you say people need a letter from a licensed mental health
person, but I mean those can be a, I'm looking at a place here online
called not doctor, a doctor. And they, they openly advertise themselves
as making rental living pet friendly. So I guess if you're in a no pet
apartment, but you get one of these letters, maybe your pet can live
with you anyway. 1449 bucks and you've got a letter that lets you travel
with your pet for one year and I want to, I want to play for you if I may
how they're ad, which is just put to kind of right up front. I mean, maybe
it's about emotional support, but it sounds most of all like getting around
no pet policy here.
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I don't know, you be the judge. This ad explains how the site helps
people register their pets as emotional support animals. Are you a pet
owner struggling to find a place to live due to no pet policies or maybe
you live in a place with a no pet policy, but you still want or need a pet?
Well, the dog tour is in the building. The dog tour is a licensed physician
who can write a professional note to your landlords or property
managers prescribing you an emotional support animal, your dog for
your qualifying condition.
00:07:58,120
Oh, boy, and I hope we go and I guess it wouldn't have to be a dog
here. Carlephage Gerald, just an emotional support duck, how do you
mention name Daniel? This one viral after a passenger took a photo of
the duck, boarding a plane, Carle told inside addition in October. She
needs Daniel to help her cope with PTSD, which is why she travels with
him. It's necessary for Daniel to be with me in any thing I get into,
particularly cars. Any time I'm traveling anywhere, Daniel has to has to
be with me. Daniel of a duck and here's Jody Smalley with an emotional
support. Wait for it. Turkey named Easter. This is on a flight from
Seattle to San Francisco, told inside addition last year that she needed
the Turkey because of the difficult nature of the trip.
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We're going to San Francisco to go spread some of my husband's
ashes. She's been there for me through all sorts of different things. All
kinds of situations, all kinds of comforts out there. How are so pleased
to have an Asheville North Carolina Stephanie D Simone joins us right
now from Plymouth, New Hampshire. She's a student at Plymouth
State University as an emotional support dog named flow to help her
with anxiety and depression. Stephanie, thank you very much for being
with us today. Hi Tom. How does flow help Stephanie describe it to us?
00:09:11,120
She is so funny. She has such a great attitude about everything and I
think one thing for me that has been huge is just her constant
happiness and I mostly suffer from anxiety but it will manifest itself into
depression. One of the reasons is that it keeps me in my bed all the
time. So with flow, I have an obligation basically to constantly move and
constantly get out of bed and do things for her and take care of her. So
that definitely has given me a routine and really helped me kind of really
function well, I guess, in a normal kind of setting.
00:09:46,120
Help us visualize flow. What kind of dog is flow Stephanie? So flow is
actually a German shepherd poodle mix. It's a little bit of a different
breed. They're a newer breed. What do you call is there a word for that
like Labradorodle or a Joodle?
00:10:02,120
She's a Joodle. She's a Joodle. Yeah, she's a Joodle. It's actually kind
of like a newer version of the Golden Doodle I guess or like a different
version. That's not a little dog. Does that go in a plane with you
Stephanie? Yeah, so it depends. Some airlines allow bigger dogs. My
older sister, she actually has a Golden Doodle and her Golden Doodles
around 60 pounds and she flies with her Golden Doodle.
00:10:25,120
With flow, she's projected to be around the same weight. So yeah,
there are airlines that will allow me to fly with her. But honestly out of
everything, that's probably one of my like minor concerns. Yeah, my
biggest concern with how she functions with me is just like in everyday
life and how I feel like routine is just very good for my mental health.
And so I've realized that with my physicians and my doctors and my
therapist and stuff. And so that's the biggest thing that she's brought for
me for sure.
00:10:54,120
Dogs live a long time. Do you anticipate that at some point she may be
with you at the airport or I don't know the hotel or restaurant? Oh, yeah,
for sure. Definitely. And I've been really trying to prepare her for that in
her. Because right now she's only five months. So like I wouldn't bring
her on a flight now because I don't think she's ready for that.
00:11:13,120
But I would, and you know, maybe in the next year eventually when
she's calmed down a bit, not so crazy and puppy and it's just more
relaxed in a public setting. Like right now she just loves everyone and
she wants to be with everyone and hang out with everyone. And so the
biggest thing is just working on her focus. So in a setting like an airport,
you know, you have to be like appropriate.
00:11:38,120
Especially if I'm going to have the dog the size of the dog that I have
with me and that yeah that puppy is going to grow. What about people
who may end up sitting with you next to you on the airplane who are
like, oh, you know, gosh, I'm not sure I want to sit next to flow. Yeah, of
course. So that always that always is a concern, especially with my
oldest sister.
00:11:57,120
And so one of the things is usually when she flies with her dog, it's with
her husband. So that usually solves that issue. They'll get like, you
know, the two-seater and she'll sit on the inside. But one thing that does
help is you always, you actually have to contact the airline in advance.
And if they do that so that they actually put you in the bulkhead seat
also. So you get the first seat with a lot of space in front of you.
00:12:21,120
And then, and then usually you're kind of like tucked into the corner with
the dog. They kind of like put you out of the way. All kinds of nice
accommodations there. Stephanie, I know we have to let you go, but
I'm really grateful to you and I hope you and Flo have good travels
wherever you may go. Stephanie, do some mone with a German
shrippered poodle emotional support animal. I'm Tom Ashbrook. This is
on point.
00:12:43,120
We're talking this out about the proliferation of emotional support
animals on planes and grocery stores, restaurants in life. Emotional
support dogs cats pigs ducks. Nick Turkey 804238255 is our number
80423 talk. Hal Herzog is with us. He's a columnist for psychology
today, right?
00:13:21,120
There are animals and us column. Aubrey Fine joined us in just a
moment. Clinical psychologist from California. Take a listen here. I
mean, on the one hand, you know, sympathy April last year, the flight
attendant told us Army veteran J. Fowler. She could not get on a flight
with her emotional support dog because it wasn't a true service animal.
The Army vet told W. F. L. A Houston's NBC affiliate what happened?
00:13:46,120
She was saying, well, an emotional support animal is in a service
animal. A service animal is for someone with real disabilities. And I felt
insulted because there are veterans in the world that they have
disabilities you can't see. But of course on the plane, well, you've got
different kinds of reactions there as well. Here's Eric Goldman, frequent
flyer telling CBS Los Angeles last month about the emotional support
animals he's seen on flight. The emotional supporting animals are
whimpering on the plane, barking, barking at the flight attendants,
barking at the seat mates, growling.
00:14:20,120
And here's Sarah Nelson, international president of the Association of
Flight Attendants talking with CBS Los Angeles about pets, pets who
are passed off as emotional support animals because they sometimes
cause safety problems for flyers. Animals who have gotten loose in the
cabin, people are at flight attendants are trying to chase them around
the cabin to get a hold of them. So this can create a lot of problems that
can lead people getting hurt on board. You can join us this hour. Do you
have an emotional support animal? Why? What's it do for you? Have
you seen more emotional support animals around like what and where?
00:14:52,120
And what do you think of the proliferation? Is this a sign that were more
humanely open to the healing, comforting power of animals? Is this for
some people just a back door to take your pet everywhere to dodge the
pet charge in your apartment building or on planes? 824238255 is our
number. 824232, how hard is this all care from Asheville North
Carolina? And also right now Aubrey Fine clinical psychologist
specializing in animal assisted therapy has given presentations on the
difference between therapy service and emotional support animals.
Professor of Education at California State Polytech Institute in Pomona,
California teaches of course there are animal human bonding. Aubrey
Fine, thank you very much for being with us.
00:15:34,120
Thanks for inviting me Tom. Does it work? Is there a scientific literature
that says emotional support animals produce important good outcomes
for their owners I guess? Well, that's sort of a very broad question.
There's research that really demonstrates that the human animal bond
is very, very compelling and has many physiological psychological
benefits to individuals. And what science has been doing since the late
70s is demonstrating what people have intuitively felt that animals are
good for our well-being.
00:16:16,120
That being said, you know, there's a lot of research that suggests that
animals in general for some people provide a degree of social support.
In regards to actual research and social support animals itself that part
of the literature is less detailed. And I think the challenge is that I was
listening to just a moment ago while you were playing some of those
interviews is really some of the difficulties is that as we have seen
society change over the last little while, public policy hasn't really been
clear on what exactly we clarify as being an emotional support animal.
00:17:02,120
And what ends up happening is as you heard there are people that are
taking advantage of saying that the animal is an emotional support
animal when in fact they're doing it for different reasons. And the
animals aren't as well trained. Does the species of animal make a
difference in terms of the comfort that it brings? I mean, you know, we
are literally hearing here about comfort ducks and comfort turkeys and
comfort snakes.
00:17:29,120
Right. I heard that. I think, again, if we can go back, I can use a basket,
Robins, analogy, different flavors for different people, different choices.
The reality is when we're talking about connecting with a species of
animals, not under the rubric of what we call emotional support animals,
just companion animals together, we find that many, many people find
solace and relationships with various animals and develop a
connection. You know, one of the theoretical orientations to why people
have pets in general is animals act as a social support, not in the
context of what we're talking about.
00:18:06,120
But animals just act as a social support. You see little children
sometimes when they're having bad times, who do they turn to? They
can turn to their dog, their cat. We get that, but this is different because
people here are asking to sort of break the regular norms to have
constant, that constant companionship. Correct. And the real challenge
has been that when the laws of fair housing and the air carrier act were
passed, they weren't very, very clear on exactly how we identify animals
specifically to serve in that purpose.
00:18:42,120
And that is part of the major challenge is that we don't really have
clarification on what animals should be considered emotional support
animals. But in reality, you know, people have found benefits in relating
with their animals, the difficulty has been what animals should be
considered emotional support animals, and how can we keep
everybody safe? Because as you were talking about again, just when
listening, you know, on plane sometimes you look at some of the
animals and you wonder about their training and their behavior.
00:19:18,120
Here's that clip. This is from 2015. This is Lisa Leffelhold. So was that a
Mexican restaurant in Nicos, Nicos, Missouri? So a couple eating with a
at their table, they had a snake and she complained to the manager
who allowed the couple to stay because the owner said it was a
emotional support service animal Lisa approached the couple. She told
KYTV in Springfield, Missouri about the experience.
00:19:43,120
He said, no, it's my service animal and I'm allowed to have it because it
helps me with my depression. So I said, well, I'm very sorry about that,
but a snake in a restaurant probably is not the best thing. And he said,
well, it's no different than having a dog service animal sitting here and I
said, well, a little bit it is. Okay, Elhur's on the proliferation of species
involved in this is novel and very curious, of course, to all of us. There
was a joke about a emotional support llama or alpaco or whatever a
couple years back somebody took one into a somewhere claiming that
they have.
00:20:18,120
Amtrak. Amtrak. Okay, great. Oh my gosh. Yeah, let me let me clarify
something here and orbid. Let me know if I'm wrong about this.
Stephanie and flow, for example, it flows an emotional support animal.
They're covered under two federal acts, the animal, the air carrier
access act in the fair housing act. They're not covered under the
Americans with disabilities act. So the law does not they're not service
animals. They're emotional support animals and that means you do not
have the right to take them into a rep.
00:20:49,120
You don't not have the right to take emotional support animals into
restaurants. No, that because there's a awful lot of a common way of
they don't they don't know that and one of the things you can get you
know one of these that don't on these sort of you know fly by night
internet things that you can get you can get an angry sounding legal
letters saying that your animals entitled to go to go into this to go into
this this thing. So so public access applies to service animals which are
just dogs and miniature horses. So the dog so for example, I get calls
from colleges every now and then.
00:21:23,120
Yeah, or you may get the same sort of deal and they want to know what
to do because let's say you have a support dog and emotional support
dog that that dog would would would have legal access to the dorm.
Because that's covered under fair housing act, but it's sort of unclear
and I don't think the dog would necessarily because it's unless it's
trained as a service dog. Not an emotional support dog, it doesn't
require training. I would don't do not think it would be necessarily
entitled to be in the classroom.
00:21:53,120
So we have people claiming that they have this right all over the place
to get it. And some have been a very short straight forward way to get
to get around rules. I want to hear from our listeners if I may. Leah in
New Orleans. Leah, thank you for calling you're on the air. Oh, hi Tom.
Hi.
00:22:08,120
I have an emotional support area named Nero. He's a cat. He's a little
cat, black and white. And I had actually brought him to school with me
for one semester before I knew that I had to get past to the disability
office at my school. I wasn't aware of that. So I had gotten it approved.
It was recommended to me through my therapist. So I began taking into
class, got it approved with my teachers.
00:22:31,120
And he was great with it. He walks on a leash. I bring him to the
festivals with me. I bring him to gatherings with me because I don't do
very well around lots of people due to my anxiety. I also suffer from
something called the vagal syncope that causes me to pass out to my
anxiety, which can be pretty scary to happen. Yeah, okay. Yeah.
00:22:51,120
Yeah, so that was pretty important to me to be able to bring him out
school with me because prior to that, the school I had gone to before I
ended up leaving after just a semester due to my anxiety and not being
able to handle it on my own. So I came back home to the school close
to home. And that wasn't enough for me either. So I worked to bring my
emotional support animal. But then when I found out I had to get it
approved to disability offices, I was quick to do that, had gone to my
doctor, got the letters written up, multiple letters written up actually. And
I continually tried to get it approved through my school to prevent it from
happening with me.
00:23:24,120
And they had told me, no, over and over again, I couldn't bring him with
me, which I think one of the issues with emotional support animals right
now is that so many people miss the use it. That the people who
actually have real need for it, can't able to use them. That's interesting.
On both counts, let me hold that question of misuse. Lear, I appreciate
your call for New Orleans, Mike in Omaha, Nebraska, Mike, you're on.
00:23:50,120
Hey, Todd, great show. Great. What do you see? Well, you know, I can
say this, I'm got a relative who has an animal for emotional support. I
get the concept. I'm sympathetic to it. But I see it abuse all the time.
And let's face it, dogs very well suited for it. I get that in your house.
00:24:10,120
You can have what if you want. If you want to see right in your house,
have a tea. When you go out in public, you have to think about other
people as well as for as I'm concerned ducks, turkey chickens. They
belong on playthrough in the zoo. It's not belong on plane to the belong
on public. Do you see do you do? I mean, do you see really a problem?
Mike or I mean, just a. Okay, I was flying to Miami. I'm in the passenger
area. There's a woman over the pit bull. A frickin pit bull as far as I'm
concerned. If it doesn't fit in the hip-lock bag, it don't belong on a plane
in public.
00:24:44,120
But you know what? I think I'm going to get myself in the motions of
poor grizzly bear. It's the alcohol we can carry this far. Because it's not
just in the surface and it's ludicrous. Well, have a great day. Okay, Mike.
I really appreciate your call. T-rex at home, if you want it, Mike's going
to get himself in the motions of poor grizzly bear. Other callers saying,
look, I use it. I need it. We're looking at it. I'm Tom Ashbrook. This is on
point. One more. I'll bring it to you, Hal and Aubrey James in Charlotte,
Charlotte Vermont, James John the Air. Hey, thanks so much for taking
my call. Yeah, I'm a. I'll.
00:25:16,120
I'll preface my comments by saying that "dog owner, dog lover and from
a couple of colors that go clear examples of how it can be very
important for someone's mental well-being."
00:25:27,340
That being said, on the landlord. And I deal with tenants with both
service animals and emotional support animals. And I have found a
very large increase in the amount of people using the support animal
00:25:41,020
cards so that they can have dogs in communities and houses where we
don't allow dogs. We had one example of a young lady who had a pit
bull and had a note from the doctor saying that this is an emotional
support animal.
00:25:57,740
But with dangerous breeds, we took it very seriously. We went to the
physician and said, "Okay, we'll sign off on that. This particular animal is
the only one that will help."
00:26:07,660
They would not, and the animal did have to be removed. And so I am
kind of curious, and they go ask your guests, kind of the little remedies
that a landlord, for example, would have against somebody that might
be taking advantage
00:26:20,860
of the system and I'll take my answer off the air. James, I appreciate
your call. How?
00:26:25,420
Is this a widespread, are people abusing, misusing this, abusing this
when it comes to landlords, situations, and others? And what about,
you know, this landlord's legal options?
00:26:36,820
Well, there's definitely a huge problem with abuse. There's no question
about that. A few bucks, you can have that card and you can say,
"Yeah, I'm going to have my pet."
00:26:47,580
Whatever the policy. Yeah, I wanted to see if I qualified as being
mentally unstable enough to warrant one. And so I took a seven item
test to get my cat, see if I can get my cat, certifying some
00:26:59,340
support cat. And she's not very emotional support. She's not a cuddly
cat.
00:27:04,020
Okay. So, one of the questions, "Are you ever nervous in front of
crowds?" Everybody's nervous in front of crowds sometimes.
00:27:10,620
I was told I could pass the test and then I could go on in. Was this one
of these kind of fly-by-night online, get your card here? Absolutely.
00:27:17,620
Absolutely. So, it's a rife for abuse. Now, the question about the pit bull
is interesting and it's very clear that in a case
00:27:26,420
where an animal is dangerous or anything like that or poses a
behavioral problem, they can get the boot. The landlord can clearly kick
them out.
00:27:38,060
But what about a tenant who the landlord's sick is just trying to have a
pet when there's a no-pet policy? Well, that's, in that case, the law is
clear that the person has a right to have a pet
00:27:48,660
if they can get a letter from a licensed mental health professional or a
doctor. The problem is this. I talk to tons of people as this Audrey about
their animals.
00:28:01,940
If you say, "Do you get emotional support from your pet?" Everybody
says they get emotional support from their pet. Of course you do.
00:28:09,580
The question is, "Where do you draw the line?" For example, I've got a
friend that's a therapist and she gets requests for this all the time.
00:28:18,340
She's reluctant to do it and she says, "In some ways, this can be a
naveling to a person. They can have their disorder treated. They can
have their anxiety treated and they can have their anxiety, their
depression
00:28:28,660
treated and go through treatment process and might help them and
they wouldn't need the animal as a cry." In some ways, it puts the
therapist in a difficult and sometimes adversarial relationship
00:28:38,820
with their client when they request these letters. That's another sort of
issue. Arbis, but I guess if somebody asked their therapist for the
emotional support letter, pet
00:28:51,020
or animal letter, the therapist doesn't give it to them, there's always
another therapist. There's always another therapist. Yeah, definitely.
00:28:59,300
They can do it. They can get one of those online very, very easily, no
question about it. Aubrey, have we proliferated beyond the zone of real
utility and importance here?
00:29:10,540
Well, I think that what you're talking about is very accurate. I believe
that what has happened is that we've gone to a place where there is
tremendous fraud.
00:29:25,540
I don't like the word regulation, but I think even in listening to some of
your listeners, what we have to respect is the integrity that animals
really are valuable to people, but not every animal is an emotional
support animal.
00:29:38,220
And one shouldn't abuse certifying or registering an animal's emotional
support just to get an animal on a plane and an animal in a housing
area. And in fact, how was correct?
00:29:53,540
It's primarily emotional support animals are truly only covered legally, I
believe, in housing and on air crafts. Aubrey, hold the thought right
there.
00:30:04,780
We'll come right back to it. Aubrey, fine. With us from Claremont,
California, Hal Herzog in Asheville, North Carolina, we're talking
00:30:11,060
about emotional support animals. Here's Cat Stevens. I'm Tom
Ashbrook.
00:30:15,500
00:30:18,500
This is on point. We'll be right back. I love my dog.
As much as I love you. A unique thing my dog will always come
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00:31:09,460
Thanks for listening to this on-point podcast. I want you to take a
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00:31:38,260
We're talking to Sarabata Proliferation of Emotional Support Animals on
Plains in grocery stores, restaurants, in-life, emotional support dogs,
cats, pigs, duck, snake, turkey, and right on down.
00:31:52,460
With us this is our hellhurtzaki, we're at the Animals and Dust Column
for Psychology today. Join us from Asheville, North Carolina.
00:31:57,740
Aubrey Fine is here from Claremont, California, clinical psychologist,
specializing in animal assisted therapy. You can join us, therapists.
00:32:06,060
Do you buy this as effective, important? Are you signing off on
Emotional Support Animal Papers? And for everybody, is this a good
trend?
00:32:14,060
Is this an exploited loophole, both flight attendants, restaurateurs?
How's this working? How far does this go?
00:32:20,660
Lots of response online. Aaron says, "Anybody who works in this field
can tell you numerous stories about the transformative power of people
with disabilities experiencing dramatic improvement working with
horses."
00:32:32,500
Okay? So there's horses. Lisa says, "Removeing Emotional Support
Animal Regulations" or I guess, "access" because
00:32:39,260
some people abuse them is like removing handicap parking because
some people abuse it. But we've got all kinds of responses here.
Andrew says, "Hey, what about people with allergies?
00:32:52,620
I'm extremely allergic to cats." Andrew's concerned about the animals,
says people who need medication or therapy or whatever shouldn't use
a living thing as a crutch, seems selfish in a responsible john writes to
00:33:05,460
us. So the topic is a big reminder of why I hate liberals. As a business
owner, I have a lot of these snowflake cupcake generation brats
bringing their
00:33:14,060
pets into my place of trade under the guise that their pets were service
animals. At the same time, I had the Department of Occupational
Health telling me no dogs allowed, causing me to spend many hours
researching the law and defending the actions of my employees.
00:33:26,780
It's complicated out there. Jackie in Norfolk, Virginia, Jackie, you're on
the air. Thanks for calling.
00:33:31,580
00:33:37,100
00:33:42,700
Hi, and thanks for taking my call. Yeah. Hello, persons.
I have an extreme foe. I am terrified of dogs. I cannot be near adults.
I appreciate the service that dogs do provide. I think that they are really
good. But I have to look at myself because I suffer the same types of, I
guess, reactions that do
00:34:00,060
00:34:04,820
what you for dogs for. You know, if I'm a ram adult. Yeah.
If you get on a plane and a dog is getting on behind you, how do you
feel? I can do it. I would pass out.
00:34:10,300
That's how bad my foe is. I just couldn't. I hadn't experienced a few
years ago where a woman in front of me had her dog, but the
00:34:18,980
dog was small. She had the dog contain, and I was fine. I wasn't
extremely comfortable.
00:34:25,300
Not as comfortable as she, obviously, but I was comfortable. But I heard
a listener earlier. I think they have a dog that they are rearing that
maybe it's a mixed-breed German
00:34:34,260
shepherd. If a dog that size was even in front of me, I would probably
freak out. So, you know, I do appreciate the need for them, but I do
have a problem with, and I see
00:34:46,540
it too, people abusing the idea of a therapy dog. Jackie, I really
appreciate your call there from Virginia, Aubrey in California. You're the
therapist.
00:34:57,420
Here's Jackie. She's got a real, you can hear it. Deep seated dog
phobia.
00:35:01,620
How is she supposed to deal? And that becomes the complexity that
we've just alluded to. The fact is that for some people, the benefits of
having animals support them, and they
00:35:12,940
really need it. We were really looking at emotional support animals,
they're not talking about fraud, and we were looking at guidelines that
clearly identified what was expected from these animals.
00:35:23,140
See, there's so many loose ends that are not clear that that has actually
caused the problem. On the other hand, you know, how do we deal with
people that have allergies, and how do we deal with people that have
phobias of animals?
00:35:35,940
And again, as a person that loves animals, I also do respect the fact
that how do we change, but as I said, the landscape of policy that looks
at this concern. And I think when this began, perhaps there was good
nature thought about why people could
00:35:55,620
benefit from emotional support animals. And the logic of this, what has
transpired as how is alluded to in some of your listeners have alluded to
is that it has been taken advantage of.
00:36:08,660
And we need to look at both sides of that coin. So for a person that has
real anxiety when a dog is near them on the plane, how do we protect
their concerns of a person that has allergies?
00:36:18,940
That's going to be a lot more complicated, especially on a plane
because of the short, you know, it's a smaller environment to begin
with. But I think when you're looking at from a therapist standpoint, one
should not liberally dispense
00:36:34,300
what if you're calling it prescriptions, recognizing the magnitude of
these decisions because the reality is for some people having an
animal in their life really does promote a better way of life for them.
00:36:48,660
And I agree with that. On the other hand, what frustrates me too is
when I'm on planes and people even look at me and say, "Geez, I didn't
want to pay the money to have my dog under the plane."
00:36:58,860
And therefore I just went online as Hal said and got a certificate that
said I could benefit from an emotional support animal. And right now,
Hal is pretty much just that simple.
00:37:09,860
I was talking to the friend today whose son was going on vacation,
couldn't figure out what to do with the dog, just got the papers and took
this dog along in the airplane in the hotel.
00:37:19,780
They just deal with it. You know, honestly, privately, he's not saying his
emotional support animal, it's just dog. Alicia Millageville, Georgia,
Alicia, what do you see here on the air?
00:37:30,460
Well, we are at our vet park, a very pet-friendly vet park. And we do
allow in our pet house and bathroom for longer. We do have some
people that, like the other color were seen past,
00:37:50,540
they put for the dog, how can we deal with that? Alicia, it's pretty hard to
make out your phone line, but you've got an RV park and you don't
allow pets in bathrooms or laundry or clubhouse.
00:38:02,700
I think I heard there. We've got people claiming that these are support
dogs and bringing them in. Hal Hursuk, are you there?
00:38:10,940
What should Alicia do? What she should do number one is she should
make sure that they have a letter from a licensed mental health
professional saying that this animal is actually serving this purpose.
00:38:25,420
But we know you can get those online. They're advertising them for 99
cents. I think it has a problem.
00:38:29,580
Yeah, but she's still, right, but does like it or not, like it or not, those
letters do convey legal status. That's the problem is that there's not
much she can do if they can get that letter.
00:38:42,060
If the dog is actually creating a public problem, if it's barking all night
and things like that, then she has some legal recourse, but it's going to
be a pain for her because she might have to get a lawyer and she's
going to have to deal with the fed.
00:38:56,380
That's really the problem. Let me mention one other thing is in Aubrey
and I have discussed this before. I think that the public has an
overrated view of how much we know about the effectiveness
00:39:10,700
of a lot of these things, including things like emotional support animals.
Well, for example, there's almost no evidence. There is no evidence
that an emotional support turkey or duck is going to help people with
00:39:22,180
PTSD. I mean, I can just say that right out, right out with great
confidence out. But is it, yeah, but it's true.
00:39:33,260
And what happens is that the media, the media has likes good animal
stories, feel good animal stories. And so what we actually know about
animals is therapists.
00:39:44,100
We know that they can be good in some contexts, but the evidence is
not nearly as good as the public thinks because of the proliferation of, I
think, biased news stories. You don't hear about the studies which show
that, for example, pet owners are worse off
00:40:01,220
than non-pet owners. You don't hear about the same, for example. You
don't hear anything about the very good meta-analysis of horse therapy,
and they concluded
00:40:10,620
that there was no evidence that horse therapy actually worked. So
there's a lot of public misunderstanding about what we actually know
about these things. Wow.
00:40:20,540
Melinda, Nashville, Tennessee. Melinda, you're on the air. Hi, Tom.
00:40:24,060
00:40:27,060
Thanks for taking my call. Yes. What do you know?
Well, as a parent of two children both have OCD and Asperger's. I
understand completely the value of an emotional support pet. Our dog
is registered as an emotional support pet.
00:40:39,060
We didn't need a letter from a therapist. All we did was go online and
pay $25 to get a little piece of paper. But I'm responsible, pet owner and
a responsible parent.
00:40:49,420
And I would say earlier, it's really simple for someone. I think the
biggest concern is dogs. It's my older child has a sugar glider and a
pouch and takes it everywhere because it
00:40:59,100
makes her feel better. And that one's going to care. But in the case of
dogs, there's a simple training and test that can be done.
00:41:06,300
It's called the CGC, Canine Good Citizen. And that guarantees that
your dog knows how to behave in crowds and out in public and around
people.
00:41:15,460
What's a training for us or something? Yeah, there's training for it, but
it's simple and it's inexpensive. You can get it done at any local pet
store or local trainer.
00:41:23,340
It takes just a matter of weeks. And if your dog can pass, then you get a
certificate. I mean, it doesn't say your dog is a therapist.
00:41:31,020
It just says your dog has got some training in how to be well behaved.
Exactly. And I think that if someone is going to register their dog as an
emotional support dog, they
00:41:40,300
could at least have their dog trained in Canine Good Citizen. What do
you think your kids, your children, you feel they're benefiting from this?
What about then people who go out and do it just so they can have their
pet live with
00:41:52,340
them in their apartment or because they can't figure out what kind of to
take it to? Yeah, well, that's a different story. You know, those are
people who are taking advantage of the system, but if there was some
00:42:02,380
way for people to be required to have at least a CGC on a dog before
registering it as an emotional support dog, then if they're just trying to
fake the system, they're not going to bother.
00:42:15,060
Yeah. Melinda, I wish your children good luck with that and good ease
with the dog and I appreciate your call.
00:42:21,300
We're talking about emotional support animals and their proliferation in
our society these days. It's got a mature beach Florida, Laurie's
colleague.
00:42:29,460
00:42:32,540
Hi, Laurie, you're on the air. What do you know? Hi, Tom.
My husband is a hotel owner here in Florida and we have a resort and
it's a smaller family on business, but people will bring their dogs and we
aren't pet friendly and we do not advertise this pet friendly, but we've
had problems with people and their dogs pooping in
00:42:49,300
the beds and just making a huge mess of the hotel room. That sounds
pretty bad. Why do you accept the dogs?
00:42:57,060
Because if they have that piece of paper, I don't think, according to my
husband and I haven't read up on it and the legal ramifications, but I
don't think we or they are allowed to even ask for any kind of
certification of the letter that they can print off the internet.
00:43:16,100
Would you trust that letter signifies the serious opinion of a mental
health professional? I don't. But that doesn't mean, if my girlfriend does
it and she has her dog and she calls her baby
00:43:34,940
and brings her dog around and I know that that's not a service dog and
I know that she brings it to hotels and I don't know. It feels so shady
that we would get in trouble for asking for more paperwork and yet the
00:43:49,620
dogs can kind of do whatever they want in our business. That's pretty
well. Gloria, I appreciate your call.
00:43:56,580
There's first hand kind of experience. One more Dothan Alabama.
Jonathan's calling.
00:44:01,820
00:44:05,820
Jonathan, you're on. Hey, Tom. Thanks for taking my call.
Yeah. I think the whole emotional support animal thing is Malarkey, if
you ask me and I think it should be just taken away because you know,
I'm on a plane.
00:44:17,100
If I have an emotional support cat, would somebody's emotional support
dog attack my emotional support cat with the whole day airline
responsible? Can I see the airline and say, hey, that happened and you
allowed it to happen on your plane.
00:44:31,900
So you should be held responsible so I can sue you and you owe me
for defamation of all kinds of support, emotional support. Yeah.
00:44:40,620
We're getting to all kinds of, we got a dog fight cat fight going on here
on the plane, at least in your mind's eye. I can see complications.
00:44:47,020
I can see abuse of the system. I also see people want it. Malarkey, is
that unfair?
00:44:59,260
No, I think. Yeah, but Malarkey is a bit strong, but on the other hand,
these are real issues. I guess a couple things I want to add.
00:45:07,740
One is that there's no government recognized certification system in the
United States. There aren't some other countries, but they're not.
They're not.
00:45:16,140
There's not in the United States. But the other thing is that we see
these sorts of conflicts that are coming out in the calls that you're
getting.
00:45:26,100
They're so common when we look at human animal interactions
differently. The roles of animals in our lives. And one of the most
fascinating things that I find about studying, I'm sure all of you
00:45:37,260
would agree, is that it really brings out the best and worst in people. We
see all kind of human foibles and passions and the best in the worst in
our behavior. And when we look at the broad scope of how we think
about these animals in our lives and
00:45:51,860
they just bring out such incredible, such incredible windows in the
human psychology. One more. Adam and Savannah, Georgia.
00:45:59,580
00:46:02,580
00:46:05,580
Adam, you're on the air. Time is short. What's your story, Adam?
Hey, Tom. Thanks for taking my call. Yeah.
I just want to say, I'm a veteran with PTSD and I suggest that I get one
of these. But you just have to think about other people. And then also
people with legitimate disabilities.
00:46:13,940
The laws are written in such a way to protect people. People need to be
able to travel. People have to have someone to live.
00:46:20,220
So you don't have to go out to eat and bring your snake or your dog.
And to the girl who wanted to bring her cat to school and she's trying to
get a proof for it, how do you expect an employer to let you bring your
cat to work every day?
00:46:33,380
You need to learn how to function in society without that or else you
need to be collecting like a disability check from the government. That's
my opinion.
00:46:41,340
Adam, can I be one thing? Probably, please, please. What do you say
to that?
00:46:45,340
I think we're almost out of time. The key issue in hearing all of this is
that sometimes when things are good, some people see them as being
too good to be true.
00:46:54,940
And the reality is that for some people, the purpose of the emotional
support animal does make sense. The abuse of how they're
incorporated, the legislation, the public awareness, the guidelines
00:47:10,580
of what people should be looking at. For example, when this began, I
think we need to look at animals that do have socialized behaviors that
they're not intrusive if they're in other people's environments like a
plane
00:47:25,140
or in a housing complex. So again, I think what's happened over the
period of time is that this has grown to becoming such an interesting
phenomenon that it's been taken advantage of.
00:47:39,460
And because of clarification, who really are these animals? What do we
really expect them to provide? Why should people be getting
certification for something that they need that's different
00:47:52,300
than having a traditional service animal? Aubrey, we're out of time right
now. In some states, Massachusetts is already among them.
00:47:59,340
Legislators considering a bill reading from the Boston Globe that we
consider making it a civil offense to misrepresent a pet as a service
animal. The clarification is on the way.
00:48:10,340
Aubrey Fine, clinical psychologist in Claremont, California, we're very
grateful to you for being with us today. And Hal Herzog, the
right-the-animals in us column for Psychology Today, how thank you
00:48:20,580
as well in Aspill, North Carolina, fascinating. Off we go. I'm Tom
Aspruck.
00:48:25,660
Thanks for joining us. This is on point. How to a Lay is a show for a Lay,
about a Lay and by a Lay?
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