Advertising Titans! Vol 1: Insiders
Secrets From The Greatest Direct
Marketing Entrepreneurs and
Copywriting Legends
Dan Lok
©2015 Dan Lok
Table of Contents
About The Author – Dan “The Man” Lok
Joe Sugerman - Mail Order Maverick
Roy Williams - The Wizard of Ads®
Jon Spoelstra - Author of Marketing Outrageously
Randy Gage - The Millionaire Messiah
Bob Bly - Author of The Copywriter's Handbook
Joe Vitale - The Buddha of the Internet
David Garfinkel - The World's Greatest Copywriting Coach
Alex Mandossian - King of Postcard Marketing
Maria Veloso - Author of Web Copy That Sells
Ted Ciuba - America's Foremost Internet Marketing Consultant
About The Author – Dan “The Man”
Lok
Dan Lok, a multi-millionaire and serial entrepreneur, and an
international best-selling author. Dan is considered the world’s leading
expert in internet marketing and is referred to by many as the
“Millionaire Mentor.”
In fact, if you Google “Dan Lok”, you’ll see his name is all over
1,000,000 web pages! (ONE MILLION) That should tell you
something.
Dan’s rise to success did not come easily. When he first came to
North America, it was quite a tough cultural adjustment for him.
With his limited knowledge of the English language, it compounded
the communication barrier even more. He only had a few friends who
understood what he was going through.
Most people made fun of him. School life was a real challenge – both
inside and outside the classroom. Eventually, Dan dropped out of
college.
His early career was marked by adversity and struggle. Dan got his
first job when he was 16. He was a grocery bagger at a local
supermarket, making minimum wage and barely making ends meet.
Quite understandably, that’s the one and only job Dan ever had.
Since then, Dan has only worked for himself. Instead of attending
business school, Dan enrolled in the school of hard knocks where he
learned firsthand the painful way of what works and what doesn’t work
in any business.
Through hard work, relentless determination, guidance from his
mentors, today Dan is a multi-millionaire entrepreneur, a respected
figure in the Internet Marketing world, and a highly sought after
business mentor, who spends the majority of his time personally
managing his businesses and investment portfolio.
His reputation is well established in the Internet space and publishing
field, having launched several successful internet companies.
Companies under his leadership generate more than $10 million in
sales a year, and tens of millions of dollars in revenue in the last few
years.
Dan is one of the rare keynote speakers and business consultants that
actually owns a portfolio of highly profitable business ventures. He is
also well known for his keen online brand perception, social marketing
ideas, business growth strategies, new product promotions, and email
marketing genius.
Dan is the founder and CEO of Charm Junction, Inc., which was
named Online Retailer of The Year by Canada Post in 2012. Dan is
also the author of a dozen books that teach financial freedom and
entrepreneurial skills, including F.U. Money, Secrets of Canadian Top
Performers, Creativity Sucks, and Lies Salon Owners Believe, etc.
Because of Dan’s transformation journey to reaching the top, in just
his early 30’s (yes!), he believes in giving back to the community, and
actively seeks opportunities where he can share his real world
strategies and proven business fundamentals.
Get Dan’s FREE 7-day video training series on how to grow your
business and build your wealth at: http://www.danlok.com
Joe Sugerman - Mail Order Maverick
Joe Sugarman is a best-selling author and top copywriter who achieved
legendary fame in direct marketing and ran a highly successful mail-order
company in the 1980s, JS&A (the forerunner of The Sharper Image).
He learned on a mass scale which ad approaches worked and which ones
didn’t. He studied the ads that achieved a high degree of success and
discovered that it was because of the use of underlying psychological
triggers.
Joe identified 30 triggers that activate the psychological forces buried deep
within the subconscious brain… and that motivate people to buy.
The result of his “discovery?” Through the effective use of psychological
triggers, Joe sold over 20 million pairs of BluBlocker sunglasses, as well as
countless other products. Joe also sold several million dollars’ worth of
products on QVC… sometimes in a single day.
Dan:
I feel really lucky to have you on board, Joe, and we’re going to
cover a lot during this interview, I know. So why don’t we let you start off
with a little of your life story and how you got into copywriting…
Joe:
Well, I really started, I guess, in grammar school. The earliest
memory was writing something and having to get in front of the class and
read it. It was a funny little bit that I wrote and everybody laughed, and it was
such a great feeling to get that feedback.
So I kind of enjoyed writing and I continued to write.
Even through high school I was with the school newspapers and wrote
articles. I was in Oak Park, River Forest right outside Chicago. In fact, Ernest
Hemingway was a previous student of our high school. And he worked for
the school paper.
Well… Hemingway got kicked off the paper and I did, too, mainly because I
wanted to start my own magazine (which I did)… and they didn’t want me to
work on the school paper because of that. It wasn’t a bad paper; it was a good
local, community paper, but they didn’t like it. And I got kicked off that.
I was supposed to go to the University of Illinois and study journalism
because I really liked to write.
I enrolled, everything was all set and then I took a vacation down to Miami.
And I saw the beautiful weather there… the beautiful University of Miami…
and I said, “What am I going to Illinois for if I can swing a thing down here?”
So I checked with my parents, and my father was really against it. But I told
him I would take electrical engineering -- which was the subject he wanted
me to take -- and let me go. So I did, and I took electrical engineering.
When I went down there my dad and my mom really couldn’t support me; it
was very difficult for them and I was always scrimping pennies. I tried to get
a job with an ad agency, but nobody would have me. So I created my own
little ad agency, and I went to all the businesses that catered to students.
I would write ads for the stores or the shops or the restaurants for whatever
I’d get in exchange… their food, or their clothes, or whatever I needed. It
became very lucrative. I made a little money, I was very well-dressed and I
always satisfied with the food I was offered, as well. So it worked out really
well.
While I was in college I wrote for the school newspaper as well. In fact, I had
a humor column for the school paper, and then I also did all these
advertisements for these vari- ous accounts. And that helped me get through
college.
I did take a year off and went to New York, worked there for a year and then
came back to school. But that’s a long story for another time.
I was a very serious student, and I was getting very good grades. I was about
to become an electrical engineer; I think I had one semester left to go.
As a matter of fact, I was also in the ROTC -- that’s the Reserve Officer
Training Corps. I planned to be a Second Lieutenant as soon as I graduated in
the US Army and served about three years. I figured I would give my service
that way.
So there I was with about one semester to go, when I got a draft notice; they
needed soldiers. I tried to appeal it, showing them I had really great grades…
and that I was a good student… and I was going to be an officer.
All they had to do was wait one semester. I would be an engineer and a
military officer. Well, they denied me that, and off I went to Fort Carson,
Colorado. I went through basic training there and then was selected from the
entire company…
You know, they all give you tests when you join the Army. Well, I didn’t get
100 on it, but apparently my score was very high.
So they pulled me out of the entire company -- there were about 2000
soldiers there -- they pulled me out, and just like you see in the movies, there
were some civilians that came up to this room and interviewed me. They
were from Military Intelligence and selected me to join that particular branch
of the service.
I had to extend my service from two years to three years, but it was
worthwhile.
In all, I spent three and a half years in the military, a good portion of that
overseas. They sent me to spy school; I learned how to be an agent. Then
they sent me to Europe and taught me German; I still speak it fluently today.
I had a wonderful time-out there, wore a uniform minimally. Then I got out
of that and I decided to take a little vacation.
I met some people who wanted to sell ski lifts in the United States, and
although I had a good background in electrical engineering, it really required
more of a civil engineer. So I called a friend of mine who went to the
University of Miami. I asked him if he wanted to be my partner.
He came out and we both explored the business proposition, and then went
back to the US and formed a company. We were salespeople for this ski lift
company. And I created all these ads for them… really great, creative ads that
would go either in direct mailings or would go in various magazines.
And I started getting a following. People loved the ads. They enjoyed them
and appreciated getting the mailings I was sending. I started getting calls:
“Who does your advertising? Who’s your copywriter?” And I started
explaining that I was, and the callers would say, “We’re not interested in
buying your ski lift, but we’d love you to write copy for us.”
So I started writing ads and that was really the beginning of it… like a little
ad agency. And finally I said to my partner, “I’m not really into selling ski
lifts or putting them up or any of that stuff. Why don’t you take that and I’ll
just do my advertising?”
So I started doing ads for ski resorts and I then I got some political work… a
lot of political work in fact. I did a campaign for somebody and he won, and
then I started get- ting many political campaigns. I was like a one-person
agency. I ended up getting a few accounts that way, and about 85% of my
“candidates” won their particular election. So I was getting a good reputation.
Unfortunately, the 85% that won… about 50% of those people were
eventually arrested and thrown in jail.
Dan:
Oh, no!
Joe:
Well that’s Chicago politics!
Anyway, I did the Governor’s race, and I did a few really great races when I
was out there with my own little ad agency. And I had a consumer electronics
account. They sold me both consumer electronics as well as tapes… 8 tracks
and cassettes.
This was a while ago; I’d say, 1970 or 1971. I happened to be reading
Business Week Magazine and came across an article about this miniature
pocket calculator they were about to come out with. Texas Instruments made
the chip, and there was a company called Bomar in Massachusetts that was
going to assemble it.
There was another entity involved… the Craig Corporation. They made car
stereos. They were going to put their name on the calculator and sell it
through the consumer electronics channels.
And I thought this would make a great item for my client. I went to him with
it and he said, “No, no, this is not the product we really want. Who would pay
$240 just to add, subtract, multiply and divide?”
And I just thought it was a neat item, so I said, “You don’t mind if I do it
myself?” And he said, “Not at all.” So I called up Craig Corporation and their
salesman happened to be coming through Chicago. We got together and I
agreed to do a direct mail campaign.
Now at this point there were no pocket calculators; there were no calculators
as we know them today. This was the first one and they didn’t know how to
market it. They had made five thousand units, and they didn’t know how to
go about it. I said, “Well, let me give it a try.”
To make a long story short, I wrote a campaign… but it didn’t work.
I lost half my money. I wrote another campaign and that one worked because
the price dropped and I knew what mailing list to send that to. The previous
mailing really was a test. So I mailed to that and it was a big success.
And that’s how a company called JS&A started. JS&A was the new company
that I formed to sell these pocket calculators. And from that day on, I sold
other calculators, other electronics, digital watches, burglar alarms,
thermostats and all the way up to computers. We were starting to get into
computers at the time that I phased out of it for a while.
That’s a whole other story.
But anyway, during that period of time when I started writing ads, I started
writing for my own products. When you write for your own products… when
you live and die over what you write yourself… then you have a different
perspective on copywriting because it’s your survival.
When I started writing copy I was not a very good copywriter. I look back at
those early ads and I can’t believe I wrote them… they just weren’t that great.
But I there’s some- thing I found out and it’s a good, helpful piece of advice
for anyone who’s writing copy: The more you write the better you get.
I used to give seminars, and the best advice I could give the students was
number one: start writing. Because the more you write the better it gets.
And the other advice I’d give them was to become an expert on your product.
If you have a product or a service and you want to do a good job, become
such an expert on it that you know everything there is to know. And if you do
that, you’ll be successful… or you’ll have a greater chance of success, I
should say.
So that’s a piece of good advice. Another one is live life; the more
experiences you get, even if they’re not related to copywriting or anything
you’ve done before… they’re valuable.
If you venture out and do different things and are curious…if you just go out
there and look… basically you’re programming your mind with several
solutions. Eventually when you need it, the right ones will pop up and give
you the answers to problems that normally, if you didn’t have that
background, your mind wouldn’t think of.
So I look at every experience I have -- both successes and failures -- and all
my travels… everything… as a fertilizer for my brain. I have never used that
term before, but that’s what they are.
And I just went out and wrote as much as I could. And I’ve watched what
worked and what didn’t. What’s great about direct marketing is you test. And
you can test in several different ways. You can change one word and see the
response rates double; you can change a sentence and see them triple. You
can make a change and see the response rate drop.
So you do this enough… and you fail enough… and after a while you know
what works and what doesn’t. And the interesting thing is that most people, if
they were to guess what worked and what didn’t, would have absolutely no
idea!
Dan:
Joe, that’s awesome advice. What are some other lessons you’ve
learned over the years?
Joe:
Well, I think I touched on failure. That’s why testing is so great. I
remember in my particular case, I would test ten different advertising
approaches and maybe one of them would work. One would work quite well
and the other nine were total failures.
But with nine total failures I learned a lot, and with one success I covered all
the losses I had experienced in the nine ads that didn’t work.
After a while, you hone your skills. I think one of the keys is you can’t be
afraid of failure, because if you’re afraid of failure you’ll never learn. I’ve
found that failure was my best teacher, and I really respect people who have
failed and have bounced back… which I think is good for an entrepreneur. If
you’re out there and you’re failing and you’re able to bounce back, that’s a
great stutter in your path, not a bad one.
To me, that’s what makes a true entrepreneur. Actually, I define it as
somebody who has been very successful, did very well, then lost it all and got
it back. That, to me, is the entrepreneur. That is the consummate
entrepreneur.
So anyway, as far as advice for copywriters… I think I gave you some of the
best when I said become an expert on your product, try to experience many
things in life, and then sit down and write and write and write. And the more
you write the better you’re going to get. It’s just as simple as that.
Another bit of advice I give people is something that I didn’t do… And I’ll
give you an example of why it’s really important. The advice is to get every
book you can on copy- writing. Read the books. I’ve published one in
particular called Advertising Secrets of the Written Word.
Dan:
Yep, I have it right in front of me.
Joe:
It’s good because it takes you through some of the basics. So even if
you’ve never written before and you thought you were not creative, when you
finish the book you will know because of the step-by-step instructions that
you can be a great writer. You can write great copy.
The reason I mention this -- and it’s not just a plug for my book…although I
really, strongly recommend my book -- the reason I mentioned it is because
of a story that’s in there.
There was a time when I tested toll-free numbers. In other words, before me
testing them, nobody used a toll-free number to take an order. Every order
had an order form and you had to sign your name if you were ordering by
credit card. And I had noticed that several people were calling me up and
saying, “Hey. I just don’t have the time to fill out an order form. I need to get
this calculator (or whatever I was selling) right away. Can you just send it to
me and bill my credit card? I’ll give it to you over the phone.” I took several
of these and I never got ripped off. So I said, “Let’s try this in an ad.” So I
tried it in an ad and it worked incredibly well.
It used to take me three…four…five days before I would break-even on an
ad. But using toll-free numbers, I was able to break-even by noon the day the
ad broke! So it became a great tool for me and I used it for about a year
before everyone else really caught on.
“Everyone else” feared I was getting ripped off. And when they would call
me and ask me, “Are you getting ripped off?” I would tell them, “You won’t
believe how we’re getting ripped off.” And of course, I wasn’t… but I
wanted to be the only one.
So anyway, the point I wanted to make was at that particular time I decided,
“Well, if a toll-free number works so well I don’t need a coupon. I don’t need
those dotted lines around the piece of paper that people fill out. I’ll just use
the toll-free number.” And for the next several years I ran ads that did not
have a coupon. They looked like editorial.
Then one day I read in a book I had gotten from England, “Coupons will
increase your response. If you do not use a coupon you’re missing a big bet.”
And I said, “That’s some- thing I want to test; I’ve never tested it.”
So I ran three ads, four different ads in an airline publication so every other
seat would get a different ad. I tested coupon vs. no coupon… I tested a really
horsy dotted line around the coupon… They were all different and there were
different forms of coupons in them. The fourth one, the control, of course,
didn’t have a coupon. It was just my typical ad.
And I found, to my shock, the most successful ad, the one that out pulled my
control by 30%, was the shlockiest looking coupon! It had these bold, dotted
lines around it; it had arrows pointing to it.
And what I learned from that was, “Wait a second. Here was a good example
of using logic to come up with a reason to not do something. And when I
finally tested it I realized it was a horrible mistake that I’d been doing for
several years… that I should have read some of the books on this to avoid
some of these mistakes.”
And I don’t know how many millions of dollars I left on the table.
So anyway, one-piece of advice that I have for everybody is to read as much
as you can. There are great instructors out there.
Now… there’s one thing that I want people to do and that is challenge any
instructor or any article, or any book or anything that you read, when they
come up with statements that suggest they know something about what works
and what doesn’t.
Unless it’s been tested… unless they’ve pointed out the test that was
conducted… then it’s just a lot of hearsay. I know many people who go out
there and teach copywriting.
They claim they know what they’re talking about when they don’t… because
they haven’t tested it.
I have tested so I do know what works. And so what I’m saying is make sure
the source of the information is a good source. And, again, I’ll have to refer
to my book… In my book, I talk about the things that I’ve tested and I talk
about the results. And I talk about copywriting.
The book is one of a three-part series. The second book is on print advertising
and catalog advertising, and all my experiences doing that with the copy I
wrote. So, that could be a good second book if people wanted to follow up on
the first book. And there’s a third book on TV marketing and how to be
successful in that.
All of these books were part of a series and taken from a seminar I used to
give. I decide not to give them anymore.
Dan:
How come, Joe?
Joe:
Because I’ve been there and done that. I built a beautiful facility
here in Hawaii that I could use as a seminar site. After it was finished, I ran
one seminar and said, “You know, this is not what I want to do.” I’d given
seminars for fifteen, sixteen years, and I said, “I’d rather write a book or a
series of books on the seminar… and let that become my teacher.”
It was a way of duplicating myself… Which is one of my philosophies.
I’ve always had this philosophy that one of the things you must do in life, and
in selling and marketing, is to duplicate yourself.
A salesman is a single individual going out and selling one person to one.
And I’ve had salesmen say to me, “Joe, you’re the guy we really look up to
because you go out there and sell millions of people with one message. You
can duplicate yourself.” And that’s true.
Dan:
That is a very important idea to realize: that to become big and
successful you’ve got to duplicate yourself… Whether it’s you or your copy,
because that’s your sales pitch and you’ve got to convey that through a very
big market.”
Joe:
As I mentioned, I’m in Maui. One of the things that I’ve done,
ironically, is to buy a newspaper here. I bought The Maui Weekly and I’ve
been publishing it for about four years. It is the fastest growing weekly
newspaper on the island. It had been horrible!
I created a format, and I applied all the direct marketing principles that I
teach to this newspaper. It has become one of the most popular weeklies, not
only in Maui, obviously but in the state! Our advertising revenue is
increasing and it’s great. We’re sought after now; people will call us up who
want to place ads in our newspaper.
So we have a good vehicle and it was all based on the principles I taught in
my seminar. So you can apply these to several different things.
Dan:
Well, Joe, let me just shift gears a bit, okay? One of the most
effective copywriting strategies I learned from your book is storytelling.
Telling a story in your sales message. Can you elaborate on that?
Joe:
Yeah, I do that. Here’s why. When I was attending a speech given
by somebody, I started to notice that when the person in front of the audience
would say, “Let me tell you a story,” I’d brighten up… and I’d start listening
to that story.
Everybody loves stories. They get your attention. And the reason they do is
left over from when you were a young child and your parents read you stories
or you heard them on radio or saw them on TV.
One of the principles that I have is based on storytelling. Very simply… the
purpose of the headline is to get you to read the sub-headline. It has no other
purpose, really, except to get you to the sub-headline.
And the sub-headline has to get you to read the copy… particularly the first
sentence. And the first sentence has to get you to read the second.
I show you how to do that in my book, but the bottom line of all of this is that
I create this momentum where people start reading and can’t put this thing
down.
One of the great ways of starting this momentum is to tell a story. And you
start telling it from the very beginning of the ad. Maybe the story has
something to do with what you’re selling; hopefully, it does.
But there are times when I have absolutely no connection between my little
story and what I was selling other than that it was human interest. It created
much interest and it segued nicely into what I was about to sell.
But stories really work, and when I give talks to audiences I tell stories.
Stories are good lessons in copywriting… of knowing what works and what
doesn’t. They’re good examples. They teach you. They make you laugh.
Some of my stories are hilarious… now. They were painful to me at the time
that I went through them. But they teach a good lesson and people love those
stories.
Dan:
But Joe, how do you come up with so many stories? Do you collect
them, or do you keep a diary, a journal or something? Or do you just
remember them?
Joe:
Well, they’re from past experiences. I remember many them. But I
also used to keep, and I probably still have, what you would call a swipe file.
It’s got many funny or unusual stories that I can take and change slightly to
use as an example of somebody doing something absolutely ridiculous or to
use, maybe, to start an ad.
So yeah, you get them from several different places. You get them from your
experience… you get them from how you feel about things.
You know, I write an editorial for my newspaper every week. I never know
what I’m going to write until about a day before and it comes. It’s just there;
it comes from the topside of my head or it’s triggered by something that’s in
the newspaper that we’re about to publish, or some situation in the
community.
Like I said, if you immerse yourself in several different things, the solutions
come.
Dan:
Joe, you do write in your own newspaper?
Joe:
Oh yeah. In this last issue, I wrote the headline story. And I wrote a
human-interest story inside. And I write one story a week, which is the
editorial. That’s when I’m not traveling. When I’m traveling, I send my
stories. When I’m not sending I write two or three.
We have a whole string of writers, about eight or ten of them that work parttime and are stringers, too. We have two that work with us at the newspaper.
It’s about an eight- person staff.
Dan:
Joe, I want to subscribe to The Maui Weekly!
Joe:
Well, it’s a great paper, really interesting. The headline story this
week is there’s a leopard loose on Maui. Maui does not have any wild
animals like that. We have no snakes here, we have no leopards, no jaguars,
cougars, nothing like that. Suddenly… Somebody must have snuck in a
leopard when it was a little baby and now it’s loose and is of course a
predator.
So our headline story is about this big cat that’s loose, and what everybody’s
doing to capture it and the damage it’s already done. It’s a little adventure
here; a big human interest story on Maui. And so there are stories like that
popping up all the time, and they’re fun to cover.
You know, I’m so used to writing these ads where my time is worth, literally,
tens of thousands of dollars, but I have to sit down and write an editorial and
an article for my newspaper which I don’t get compensated at all for. But it’s
fun. I enjoy it. It keeps me writing.
Dan:
Now Joe… an idea that you teach in your book is called “selling the
concept, not the product.” What do you mean by that?
Joe:
Well, I’ve never really sold a product successfully. There’ve been a
few exceptions when the product was so new or so different… Let me give
you a good example.
Smoke detectors, when they came out, they were hot. People were buying
them and installing them, and everybody was encouraged to do that.
This had been going on for about a year when somebody came to me with a
smoke detector to sell. And I said, “Well, gee-whiz, it’s out there already.
Everybody has one. How can I make this one different? Let me ask you a
bunch of questions.”
So I went through that smoke detector and I found everything I could learn
about it: how it had this little comparer circuit that compared normal air with
smoke-filled air… how all the contacts on the integrated circuits were goldplated. Well, just about every other smoke detector had those as well; this one
was just a bit better quality.
But then I said, “Wait a second, let me try this…”
I called this product “The Nose,” and I said it sits on your ceiling and
compares the air to norms, and it will sound an alarm when it detects smoke.
It’s one of the most efficient… it has gold contacts…” To make a long story
short, the smoke detector sold very, very well.
That’s a good example of taking a basic product and selling it as a concept. I
avoid selling a product on just its features. I try to reposition the product and
look at it in a different way.
We were once selling a thermostat, and we didn’t sell the thermostat. We sold
the story of how I discovered it and thought it was horrible. I thought it was a
terrible idea that I didn’t want. It looked ugly. And then I was urged to just
try it -- which I did -- and I was blown away.
And if you started reading the ad copy you wouldn’t want to put it down
because you’re wondering “Where is this guy Joe Sugarman going with this
thing? He’s knocking a product and yet, at the end, he’s trying to sell it.”
It sold! Anyway I hope that answers your question. You always try to sell a
concept, n ever a product. Try to remember that.
Dan:
Okay, Joe, you’ve also got a great story about selling the cure, not
the prevention. Can you share that concept?
Joe:
I think most direct marketers know this; and if not, this is good
advice. It’s very easy to sell a cure. It is very difficult to sell a form of
prevention.
For example, let’s say I had to sell a pill that would help you prevent cancer.
And I said, “This thing, if you take it, it’s an antioxidant. And antioxidants
have been proven to be helpful in preventing cancer.”
It would be difficult for me to sell this preventive product for a couple of
dollars a pill… even a dollar a pill would be stretching it.
But if, suddenly, you found out you had cancer and I said to you, “Hey, these
pills will help cure cancer,” you’d probably pay a big fortune for those pills.
Now, that’s an extreme example and cancer is an ugly disease and this may
not apply to that, but it is easier to sell a cure than sell a prevention. A good
example of that is we were selling a “gas pill.”
The gas pill saved you fuel because it helped you burn fuel more efficiently
in your car. It also prevented knock, and it helped you pass your smog test if
you had to take one of those. It had all these features … I went on QVC, the
home shopping network, to sell these things, and I noticed whenever my
pitch was selling these as a cure as opposed to the prevention… it sold better
In other words, it also prevented your car from getting knocks and from
failing a smog test. If I just got on there and said, “If you just failed your
smog test, put this pill in your car. That’s all you need to clean out your
engine. If your fuel costs are too high, put this pill in and that will solve your
problem.”
In other words, I could have sold this product as a preventive, which it was,
but by going on TV and selling it as a cure, I noticed my sales dramatically
increased.
Dan:
So, Joe, what do you think are the key elements of powerful copy?
Joe:
Again, I have to refer to my book. There are many key elements. If
you look at an ad, one of my ads, for example… let’s talk about the headline.
That’s a key element. You have to have something that’s going to grab
people’s attention.
Then, after the headline you should have a sub-headline and that’s without
exceptions. In fact, even in my newspaper, every headline has a sub-headline.
I don’t care what it’s about. And the purpose, again, as I mentioned before is
the sub-headline has to get you into the text. And if it does, it gets you to the
first sentence.
Then the first sentence is the element of the ad, and that’s important. The first
sentence I’ve always made short, like…”You wouldn’t believe it!”… or
…”How’s this for an idea?” This is because it’s easy to read. When it’s easy
to read, you read that first sentence.
Then you’re curious from the first sentence so you’ll read the second and the
third. And they’ve proven that when you get a reader reading, and you get
that momentum going, the reader, if they’ve gone through the first third of
the ad will probably complete the ad.
And that’s what you want.
When you go in, if you were going to sell somebody on a personal, one-toone basis… And you walk in and you try to sell that person and you have,
let’s say, ten minutes to do it and you only get through one minute of your
presentation, your chances on selling that person are very slim.
But if you were able to get all that time and your presentation used all of that
time to sell…then you’re chances of selling the person are much, much
greater.
And that’s also true in copy. So the key is getting somebody to read your
entire ad.
You do that through several little techniques that I use… Like the little things
I might put at the end of the paragraph. I might write, “Ahh… But there’s
more!” or “If you think that’s interesting, wait until you see this.” In other
words, little bridges between the para- graphs sometimes work very well.
Another thing that works well are paragraph headings, and they’re not what
you think. Paragraph headings are those little bold things between the various
paragraphs of copy.
The reason we use those is to make the text look less imposing. If you had
just solid text it would look so imposing you wouldn’t even want to start
reading it. But by breaking it up, it’s less imposing and it doesn’t look as
burdensome to read.
And I wrote for me. I have a short attention span, and if I’m not interested in
something I skip it. One of the things I noticed about my inclinations is than
when an ad is so copy laden with no breaks, I just don’t bother to read it. And
that’s import ant: when you’re making copy don’t make it too imposing.
This is important, too: pictures should always have captions. The caption is a
very important element. People love captions. They read them, and they read
them all the time. If you have a picture, have a caption.
And there are many other elements. I always have what I call a technical
explanation. For example, if I’m selling a high-tech item I might put a
paragraph in there that nobody understands, but that shows that I know what
I’m talking about because I’m using the technical terms of that product.
When I say “nobody knows,” what I’m talking about in other words, is that
nobody’s heard those terms before, but it sounds like I know what I’m doing.
And, indeed, I couldn’t use those terms if I didn’t. In other words I have to
learn those terms to be able to apply them to the product to be able to use it in
the first place. And that inspires confidence among the consumer.
I don’t know how many psychological triggers I have. In one book I have
thirty of them, but in the copywriting book I also have… I forget how many I
have. But there are many of those and there are like twenty copy elements
you should be aware of. And all of these things are used to build the ad. In
the book I take you slowly through all of these.
To talk about them now would be difficult unless there are some particular
ones that you’re interested in hearing about.
Dan:
As a matter of fact, yes! I have them right in front of me. You have
thirty of them in your book Triggers.
Joe:
In Triggers I mention thirty. That is a book on selling one-to-one. In
other words, if I wanted to sell you, Daniel, one-to-one, those are the
techniques I learned in direct mar- keting that I have applied to direct selling.
Of course I give examples of direct marketing, too, and they are useful for
direct marketers to learn. If you wanted to be a good sales- person, boy this
book will give you a good foundation.
By the way all of these books are available at www.amazon.com… all the
books I’ve written.
Dan:
Joe, I don’t think we can go through all thirty of the triggers, but
maybe if I could pick just five or ten and you can expand on them, okay?
Joe:
Or I could tell you some of the most important ones…some of the
most powerful.
Dan:
That would be perfect.
Joe:
A great tool is curiosity. If you start an ad off with something where
you promise them something a little later…or through your copy build
curiosity…people will stay and read and continue to read until they satisfy
that curiosity. And I’ve used that in ads.
Remember, I talked to you about that thermostat where I was knocking the
product in the beginning… That builds curiosity: “Why is this guy knocking
it?” You can do this in a story; you can build curiosity through many
different ways.
Another powerful tool is what I call satisfaction conviction. We know what a
trial period is: if you’re not happy within thirty days, return it. Well,
satisfaction conviction is a lot stronger than that.
It basically says “If you are not satisfied, if you are not happy with this
particular product we will send somebody to your door and pick it up and pay
the postage back, and you can keep all the things that you received.” In other
words, something that is very strong and very convincing…so a person says,
“Wow, these people are really going to get ripped off unless this product does
what they say it does.”
And using that technique, coming up with a satisfaction conviction – as
opposed to a trial period – will double and triple your response. I had that
with Blue Blockers, the sunglasses we sold on TV for many years through
infomercials.
I had a guarantee that if you weren’t happy with the Blue Blockers – I don’t
care if it was today, tomorrow, next week; a month from now, a year from
now, ten years from now – you return them, and we’ll get you your moneyback.” That was my warrantee.
And people said, “This guy is going to get ripped off.” But no… they got the
product, it performed how I said it would on television, they liked it, and for
the most part we got few returns. But the point is it helped dramatically
increase response.
I’ve actually tested this in print. I’ve taken examples and put in satisfaction
convictions, replaced them with trial periods and tested the responses, and
discovered early on that satisfaction convictions work… and they work very
strongly.
Another trigger that I’d say is something that is very powerful, is… honesty.
Now you may laugh at first and say, “How is this a trigger and how do you
use it to sell?” But listen up…
The more honest I am about a product – even to the point where sometimes
it’s embarrassing, where I’m saying things I don’t like about a product – it
helps because people will trust you and trust your judgment. If you try to
fudge a little bit in your ad or in your copy, ten to one the consumer will pick
it up. I’ve tried it a few times. I’ve said, “Well, we’ll fudge this a little bit,”
and boy, they picked it up.
The thing is… If you use honesty in everything you do… in your life and
your copy… If you use integrity in everything that you do, it’s going to come
through in your advertising. People are going to respond. If you don’t, you’re
asking for trouble, and I can almost guarantee you that your response rates
will suffer as a result.
Dan:
One trigger I like is a sense of urgency.
Joe:
Well, yeah. Too often if somebody says, “Let me think about it,
come back,” you’ve lost them.
Let’s say you’re at a showroom, trying to sell a car and this person says,
“Well, okay, thanks for showing me the car and trying to sell it to me, but I
want to look at another car. I really like this car, but…”
You’d interrupt and say, “Wait a second. This is the only model we have; this
is the only type we have. This offer is not going to take place tomorrow, and
I’m sure by tomorrow we’re going to sell this. So if you’re interested, now is
the time to decide.” That person has a greater likelihood of buying that car at
that moment.
So you’ve got to do the same thing in your ad copy. You’ve got to give them
honest rea- son they should move quickly and get this product. Things like,
“If you don’t buy right away we’re going to run out of stock” don’t work,
because people overuse that phrase.
But if you have some really legitimate reasons people should get this right
away… like, maybe it’s the end of a free rebate program… or maybe if they
order within a few days of the offer they’ll be mailed a special gift… they’ll
act.
But you want to keep it as an incentive. You want to keep it as honest as
possible, and you want to give them a sense of urgency that is very, very
strong for them to decide right at that moment.
Dan:
Joe, here’s another one I find very powerful: ownership.
Joe:
Okay. There’s an example in my book about this TV salesman who,
before the days of the remote control – when people had to go up to the TV
and turn or change the channel by twisting the knob – he had a TV in his
store and there were many salesmen there. He was one of the salesmen. His
sales record was the highest of all the sales agents. They had a sales agent
meeting and he explained to everyone what he did. And basically, it was
clever…
He would stand at the entrance to the store and people would come in and
they’d look at the TVs. And when someone went over and actually turned a
knob, he knew that he had a five-times greater chance –I forget the odds, but
much greater – to sell that person than to the person who was just looking.
So he would just stand in the store and not do anything and when that person
walked in and turned the knob he was right on top of them.
And he had the best sales record in the store.
And that’s also true even in print. If you can tell a person and have them
visualize… Like we used to say, “Pick up the calculator and touch the keys.
Feel the snap each key has.” Give them a sense of ownership… give them a
sense of involvement… and they will be more likely to respond. They’re
getting their mental processes working and in gear to feel that ownership and
feel what it’s like to own it. I think that’s really import ant.
Dan:
Joe, can we go through a couple more? This one I really like:
Justify the purchase.
Joe:
Well, it’s logical but sure deserves a mention. What is you want is
to justify your purchase to somebody by its value. I don’t care how wealthy
you are, you want to know that you’re getting a good value. You want to
know that you’re not overpaying. You want to justify your purchase maybe
by the fun you’ll have or the good that you’ll do, or the information that
you’ll get.
A book is a good example. You say, “Buy my book. It will cost you $33,
however you just get one idea from this book and you write one good ad and
this book will pay for itself a thousand times over.” And basically that’s my
message for selling books.
You know, when I used to give seminars, I’d have about twenty people and
they’d pay$2000 or $3000 to attend. This was a long time ago, back in the
‘70s.Then it was a lot of money. It was the most expensive seminar you could
imagine back then.
I started the seminar off by saying, “Ladies and gentleman, I just want you to
know that this house we’re in right now, this piece of property – and it was a
beautiful home… 10000 square feet on I think about 10 acres in Northern
Wisconsin…. One of the most beautiful sites you can imagine -- and I said,
“This beautiful home was paid for by one ad that I wrote. You’re going to
share in some of these secrets so when you leave here, the money that you’ve
spent for this seminar will be the cheapest thing you’ve ever done to further
your career.”
Nobody ever asked me for their money back.
There was one guy who did and I worked with him for a little bit afterwards.
I think it was more a matter of jealousy or envy or whatever. He just didn’t
like the fact that I was this successful and that I was teaching other people
marketing. But when I finished with him he became a successful guy
anyway.
And I talk about that in my book. I give many examples of students who have
attended my seminar and gone on to create enormous wealth. One guy was a
grapefruit farmer. He raised grapefruit and checked into a Holiday Inn Motel
where I gave the seminar, sat down, and wrote an ad. He took it back to
Texas, and ran the ad in a bunch of magazines. They did so well that he
couldn’t keep up production. He had to buy grapefruit from other farmers to
fill the orders!
There are many examples like that where people have come to my seminars
and learned those techniques. And just like they learned them from the
seminars, readers can learn them from my books. They’re all in there and
they’re recent.
Dan:
Now, one of the big questions: What about the Internet? Have you
written anything about the Internet?
Joe:
I haven’t, except to say many times when I’m questioned about that
subject that I do have a web site… www.blublocker.com. It could also be
spelled www.blueblocker.com. We have a web site and I’m selling product
on the web site.
But that isn’t the supreme or the best example of what I can do on a web site:
which I’m actually doing soon. But anyway, the reason I bring this up is
because every one of those principles applies to web copy. You just have to
weight them differently.
Like… involvement is extremely important on a web site. Then there are
many other things that probably have greater importance. But every one of
the principles is important.
The people who use those principles to design and develop a web site, and
sell products on that web site, find they are very effective. I get many
comments from people who email me or write me and thank me, because I’ve
changed their lives.
Dan:
Now, Joe, since we’re talking a little bit about the Internet, can you
give us some more quick insights about how it can impact the marketing
world?
Joe:
Let’s put it this way: If somebody brings me a product, with my
experience in everything from the Internet to television to spots on television,
to infomercials to QVC hope shopping to catalogs to print, to radio, bank
statements… I mean, you name it; I’ve had that experience...When I look at a
product I know instinctively from working in all these areas what area works
best for a product. And so then I focus on that particular category.
There are some of our products that work very well on the web. But here’s
what I’ve learned, and this is the important point for everybody to realize:
you can do very well on the web… and you can follow these principles and
follow up… but often it is import a n t that you supplement what you do on
the web with something else.
I’ll give you a few examples: When I do an infomercial all the home
shopping networks want to get my product because they know it’s going to
sell on an infomercial. If I do something in print it’s not as effective for TV,
but I know it will sell in a catalog. And I know if it was successful in print
then I can use other methods of print to sell it.The point is that you want to
develop if you can when you’re marketing a product… you want to develop a
balance with many different media.
Having said that, you can run using all these principles strictly on the Internet
and be very, very successful.
Dan:
As a marketer, I’m constantly learning and trying new things. I bet
it’s the same with you.
Now, Joe, what are some of the marketing lessons you learned that you
haven’t put in your book, but you think are import ant.
Joe:
I’ll be real frank: I have put just about everything I could possibly
convey in that book. The one psychological trigger that I’d include if I were
to do a reprint of Triggers is fear.
People either fear loss or have the fear of not having that product when they
need. Fear is a tremendous motivator.
There are examples of how I’ve used that knowledge in the past… not
maliciously or lightly, but just to point out certain things that people have
said to themselves in the back of their mind… like, “Wait a second. I fear not
buying this product because I’m not going to be able to derive the benefits
that my competitors will be gaining.” You know, that kind of thing.
So fear is a big motivator, and one of the triggers. But I’d say the purpose of
writing those books was that at one particular point I said, “Okay, this is
enough seminars, this is enough of marketing. I’m going to write these
books.”
You know, my sense was I wanted to make them reasonable enough so as
many people could afford them as possible, even people who, for example,
have called me up and said, “This is my last $10 or $20 or $50, and I want to
get your book. I want you to know that.” I wanted to give back to these
people the best investment they ever made.
So I drew the line. I said, “Okay. I’m finished with all of this and I’m done
with television and I’m done with this and done with that.” Well, it turns out
after writing all those books that I’m still involved in TV and I still have
things that I’m marketing.
In fact, I have a new product that I’ll be coming out with that I really can’t
reveal right now. It should be a big one and it’s totally different from
anything I offered before. The point is, yeah, when you have this in your
blood and you have all this experience and knowledge, you want to use it!
So anyway, that’s really it in a nutshell. There’s nothing much more I can
share at this point other than one little facet that I explain at my seminar and
talk about in my book, and that is you should never give up.
You know, we’re all handed a bucket of oysters, and in that bucket is one
oyster with a pearl inside. And some people sit there and they say, “Well, we
know the pearl’s in here,” and they start opening the oysters. But after a few
oysters and it’s difficult to open up and it’s messy they say, “Oh, I’m not
going to continue.”
Sometimes you have to open every one of those oysters to find that pearl but
it’s always in there. It’s just strictly a matter of never giving up. And that’s
really the advice I would give anybody, whether you’re an entrepreneur…
whether you want to write great copy... Just never give up.
And become an expert in your field. Then, believe me, you will be
successful. I’ve never found anybody in my history that has given it a major
try and not succeeded.
Dan:
Joe, you’ve given us so much powerful information. It’s been
wonderful talking to you.
Joe:
If your audience has anything they’d like to ask…any questions
they’d like answered, they can email me blublockerman@aol.com.
Dan:
And people can go to www.amazon.com to get a hold of all your
books. Thanks, Joe.
Roy Williams - The Wizard of Ads®
Roy is somewhat of a mystery man.
His books and Monday Morning Memos are a constant source of fascination
and entertainment for his students and friends around the globe. His first
book, The Wizard of Ads, was voted Business Book of the Year in 1998. His
second book, Secret Formulas of the Wizard of Ads, was named the Wall
Street Journal’s number one Business Book in America in 1999 and became a
New York Times bestseller.
The third book in the trilogy, Magical Worlds of the Wizard of Ads reached
bestseller status again in late 2001. His fascinating fourth book, Accidental
Magic, is a tightly condensed anthology of writing tips and insights, mixed
with artistic examples provided by 106 of his amazing protégés. The
Wizard’s first fiction book, Destinae is a powerful allegory aimed directly at
the heart of the reader.
A lifelong student of humanity, Roy H.Williams has spent a quarter-century
asking, “What makes people do the things they do?” And he’s been using the
things he’s learned to stimulate miraculous growth for his small business
clients for more than 15 years.
With nine branch offices in the U.S., Canada, and Australia, Wizard of Ads,
Inc., is now serving the advertising and marketing needs of business owners
around the globe.
Dan:
Now, Roy, we’ve got a lot to cover in this interview. Why don’t we
start off with you telling our listeners your background and how you actually
got started?
Roy:
Well, you know, Daniel, my experience has been that when you
find somebody who has accomplished something in their field, regardless of
what it is they do, you find often they didn’t choose that field as much as it
chose them.
I’ve often threatened that one of these days I’m going to write a book about
pivotal moments in people’s lives. It’s one of the questions I like to ask, and
the reason I share this with you is because the path that I took into advertising
is something that nobody would have anticipated.
And it all began when Penny and I were married at eighteen, and I was
working in a seamless guttering shop, which is essentially a tradesman job. I
was making, like, $4 an hour, or something. We shared a car and she worked
at the University in the admissions office.
One day I was waiting for her to come and pick me up after work and the
building was empty. It was late in the afternoon and I didn’t have anything to
do, so I started calling – in Tulsa, Oklahoma, where I lived – I started calling
these dial-a-prayers.
There were three of them, back in those years. I called all three of them. I
hadn’t called a dial-a-prayer in fifteen years and I was like eighteen years old.
I had done it when I was a little kid because my cousin had told me to, and I
said, “Huh, they still have these.”
Well, they were terrible. Absolutely the most abominable, depressing,
ridiculous things I’d ever heard in my life.
So I decided, “You know what? I can do better than that.” If somebody’s
going to go through the trouble to call and get a thought for the day, and turn
your thoughts towards something that’s maybe worth pondering, I said, “I
think I can do that better than these guys.”
So, at eighteen years old I began getting up early, early, ear ly in the morning,
and I would read the Bible for an hour, and hour and a half, until I found just
a thought, a little, really interesting nugget.
Then I would write a sixty- or a ninety-second message, never more than two
minutes.
And, Daniel, back in those days they didn’t actually sell answering machines.
But you could rent a machine from the telephone company. It was $50 a
month for what was called a Cod-A-Phone 111. And it was announced only.
It had a little odometer on it, almost like on a car, and it showed the number
of calls that had come in. You could reset it to zero everyday.
And, you know, I did this seven days a week. I was spending probably twenty
hours a week at least, in the early, early morning hours, preparing and
recording a little message for that day.
And it wasn’t long before I started meeting people that were telling me that
they were calling my little message and getting a busy signal. “I called three
or four times, got a busy signal each time.” And then it occurred to me: I was
getting over 250 calls a day, and I said, “You know, getting this many calls, if
somebody’s getting a busy signal I ought to put in another line.”
And so I had a second telephone line installed and rented a second machine.
And now it’s costing me over $100 a month, more than a week’s salary every
month, to support this telephone adventure. I never gave anybody an
opportunity to contribute.
I didn’t want to take up much time and energy explaining how you could
contribute, so I never solicited any funds nor ever received any. But at the
same time I got really good at condensing a big thought into a few words.
And then because it was very, very expensive for me to support this, I
decided I needed to get a part-time job. So I got a part-time job in the middle
of the night at a radio station that was automated. And my job was to change
tapes in the middle of the night on what was essentially Friday night,
Saturday morning.
I would go to work at 1 AM, 1 ‘o-clock in the morning on Saturday morning,
then I would stay up all night long, work until Saturday at 11 AM. So it was a
ten-hour shift. There was no microphone; it didn’t go on tape and it wasn’t on
the air.
We were across the hallway from a sister station that was a big FM station. I
just got to talking with the manager one day. I said, “You know, I’m here all
night with nothing to do. If there’s anything you’d like me to do, I’d be happy
to do it.”
And so they started giving me some notes and said, “Maybe you could write
some ads.”
And they had no idea that I had been practicing. I was a year and a half, I
think, into this dial-a-prayer thing everyday. And so I had been practicing a
couple hours a day, at least, three hours a day sometimes, s even days a week
for you know, the better part of a couple years.
And so the very first ads I began writing were just exceptionally good, and
the advertisers were getting wonderful results. They started asking, “Whoever
wrote this, do they want to start writing all my ads?”
The short and the long story, it was four years later… Let’s see, I was 20
when I went to work at the station, and I was almost 26 when I became
general manager.
So I rose through the ranks. They brought me to the sales department, then I
became sales manager.
And then whenever my general manager was transferred to Los Angeles, they
gave me a 100,000-watt station in Tulsa, Oklahoma and a staff of thirty
people.
Daniel, I’ve got to tell you, I was absolutely, without question the worst
manager that ever breathed air.
I tell you, I am really a bad manager. I don’t even manage the company I own
today. I have my wife and Kareem Taylor, our operations manager, handle
management. And the only reason we actually make money is because I put
other people in charge who pay attention. That’s how I got started.
Dan:
Now, Roy, you’ve built an extremely successful consulting business
with branch offices all over the world. How do you do that? How do you
duplicate yourself?
Roy:
Well, Daniel, that’s an interesting question. I’ll tell you: I don’t
really duplicate myself. I was asked this question yesterday by somebody
who flew down from out of state to spend the day with me.
I was asked that same question. The real truth is in all of my books and then,
in our school… We have Wizard Academy here at our facilities, we built a
special building for it and we’ve had that going for just over three years.
Every month, you know it stays sold-out months in advance. I don’t promote
the school aggressively, and I didn’t really promote the books aggressively,
and I don’t really believe that I ever came up with anything that took anyone
completely by surprise.
Daniel, I’m convinced there are many people that down deep have always
known that things were not as they should be when it comes to advertising
and marketing. And they’ve always had some theories; they’ve always had
some ideas, some suspicions of their own, and whenever I wrote the book I
basically became the flag around which these people could rally.
I just became a spokesperson for a group of people who have always been out
there, who have been the misfits, the renegades, the mavericks. The ones who
were swimming against the current and they all felt like they were alone.
They all felt like it was just them. And then, suddenly, here comes a fellow
that comes out and says what they have always thought, what they have
always believed deep down, and so they are magnetically attracted.
And they’ve contacted us, attended the school. Some of the people, after
they’ve read all the books and taken all the courses that we offer, they decide
that they want to do this full time. They just want to be part of our
organization, so we we’ll help them open a branch office.
I would say that it’s not that I’ve actually caused anybody to change their
position. I’ve just simply attracted a whole bunch of people who have always
felt that way and just didn’t know that anybody else did.
And so, in terms of replicating or duplicating myself, I don’t think I’ve really
done that. I think I’ve just attracted like-minded people and that I’ve given
them a method or a sys- tem or a construct that allows them to achieve
similar results using similar concepts and a similar perspective.
You know, people talk, Daniel, about thinking outside the box. I don’t
actually believe in that.
This theory of thinking outside the box is a bad label and it’s because
anytime that you have a perspective you are in a box. That box is your
worldview, it’s your perspective, and it is your paradigm.
And so you can move into a different box than the one that you normally
occupy.
You can change feet into stadiums, so to speak. If you think, whether it’s
hockey or basketball or football, if you’re down there by the field, you see all
kinds of details, and hear all kinds of things that you don’t experience if
you’re way up high.
But, if you’re way up high, you can see the play developing.
You can see one guy going way out long for a pass, and then the other person
throwing it to them. You can see all of this developing, this big picture.
So I tell people, I say, “You know what? Don’t think in terms of ‘thinking
outside the box’; just find a perspective, a paradigm, a worldview, and angle.
Move from the seat you normally occupy in the stadium of life, move from
that seat into a different seat.” I tell that to people all the time.
The worst convention, the worst trade association meeting that you could
ever attend is the one for your own industry.
If you really want to learn to approach the problems that you face or the
challenges you face, or even the opportunities that you’re confronted with…
You want to approach those from a completely different angle and learn to
think in a whole different way. What people would have called previously
“outside the box.”
Go to trade shows and conventions in an industry totally removed, absolutely
foreign to the industry you’re in. You’ll find that looking at business, looking
at your business the way that they look at their business, will give you many
new insights and all kinds of new possibilities.
Dan:
Now, Roy, you’ve just talked about how you developed a system or
process that ensures consistent results. Can you share that process or system
with our listeners?
Roy:
Sure. I’m going to give you the Reader’s Digest version of the
curriculum that we call the “Secret Formula” curriculum.
It’s a three-day affair at the academy.
Let me start at the beginning because we do approach writing and creating of
an ad campaign from a significantly different angle, I guess. We’ve been
talking about paradigm, if you will, and what you would consider the ad
itself, writing the message is step four.
If you ever try to do it sooner than step four you’ve made a horrible mistake.
So let me give you the steps that you have to carry out before you get to write
the ad.
The first point that I would note, Daniel, is that people never change their
minds. As long as you continue giving a person the same information that
you’ve given them in the past, they will continue to make the same decisions
they’ve made in the past.
What appears to be a person changing their mind is actually someone who’s
making a new decision based on new information.
With no new information there will be no new decision.
And so selling, persuasion, whether it’s in an ad or whether it’s face-to-face,
is simply transferring confidence. The only reason a customer ever says “No”
is lack of confidence. They’re not confident, Daniel, that today is the right
day, your price is the right price, you’re the right person to buy it from, or
that this is the product or service that’s going to solve their problem, meet
their needs.
And so if they have confidence that today is the right day, you are the right
person to buy it from, this is the right product and the right price, they say
“Yes” every time, every time.
And so transferring that confidence, whether you’re telling them new
information in the hopes that they will come to a new decision, or whether
you are simply giving them a new perspective on information they’ve had all
along… either way you’re transferring your confidence as the sales person to
the customer.
You can’t transfer what you yourself do not have. And so I’ve never, never
taught people “These are the gimmicks, these are the tricks to overcome the
objection.”
I don’t believe in that at all. I think that’s a bunch of hocus-pocus, slippery,
sales-training crap.
And the real truth is that if you really believe in what you’re trying to sell and
you really believe it is the right solution for the problem, that it is the answer
for the customer, then all you have to do is transfer your confidence in that
product or service to the customer and they will say “Yes.”
And so the first thing you have to do is realize, and now we’ll start on the
steps of the system… there are three different worlds in business.
There’s the world outside your door, there is the world inside your door, and
then there is the world of the private office of the CEO.
Now, the world outside the door of the business is the world of their
reputation, it is the world of the customer’s expectations, it is the world of
advertising.
But see, from the customer contact with the advertiser, whether it’s
physically by walking through the door, or whether it’s through the
telephone, or even email… once contact is made and a dialogue or an
experience is delivered, now the customer has entered the world inside your
door.
Their expectations are about to change resulting from their actual experience.
So advertising had done its job.
Now the single biggest piece of advice I can give an advertising professional
is never work for someone who is not good at what they do. Advertising will
not sell a bad product, and anybody who tells you otherwise is either a liar or
a fool.
Good advertising will not sell a bad product more than once. You can fool
people, you can lie to people; it’s a con.
If you want to be a con man go ahead and be a con man, but if you want to be
an advertising professional you need to have the courage to say, “You know,
the experience we’re delivering to the customer is inferior, and advertising is
not going to solve the problem of…”
The first thing I teach my partners and my students is make sure that you’re
not trying to solve a problem with advertising. So the world outside your
door is the only one advertising can change. It can change a customer’s
expectation, but it doesn’t change a customer’s experience in that world
inside the business owner’s door.
But the place to start is that third world, the private office of the CEO.
Because in the business owner’s heart, the person who has absolute authority,
the person who can say absolutely no or absolutely yes without having to
check with anyone.
When you’re talking to that person, and only when you’re talking to that
person can you find out what this company’s really all about.
And what a CEO will tell you is usually about half the truth. It’s what they
believe but it’s not necessarily what they do.
And so you have to be careful building ads based on who the business owner
or who the CEO says they are. “Well, at our company we believe in customer
service, we believe in services after the sale, we believe in exceeding the
customer’s expectation.” Shut up.
The bottom line is everybody says that but how many people do it, Daniel?
How many people do it?
So you have to watch what it is they actually do because it’s an expression of
what they really are. If you ever create a campaign that promises something
that your client isn’t going to actually deliver, that campaign will fail. It will
fail.
Number one, the advertiser will never really implement what it is that you’re
promising.
You can create imaginary companies that sound great. But if it’s not going to
be delivered to the customer the campaign will falter and die, because you
have to build upon what the public knows to be true. In other words, if you
hear an advertisement for a good restaurant or a new movie that’s supposed
to be spectacular, and you’re thinking about maybe checking it out.
And you have a friend saying, “Oh, man, don’t do it. I tried it, it’s terrible.”
Who are you going to believe?
Dan:
My friend.
Roy:
The friend, of course. And so most advertisers don’t realize that we
are now living in a hypersonic word-of-mouth world, and we are more
interconnected as a society than at any time in history. And word-of-mouth
has gone exponential.
So I tell advertising copywriters, I say, “Listen, you know, n ever, ever, ever
let somebody put the monkey on your back to turn something that is a
disaster waiting to happen. Never let them give you the responsibility to
rescue them from their own bad product.” You can’t sell a bad product with
good advertising.
And so, beginning with, “Are you working for somebody you believe in? Are
you working to sell a product that actually is worth owning?”
Because, if not, the only thing you can become is a highly polished, slick,
professional liar. I won’t do that. I won’t teach that.
I have advised a number of people who really suck at what they do. I say,
“You need to get better at this or you need to get into something you’re good
at. I don’t want to write ads for you because it’s going to be a waste of
money.”
Usually, when they don’t take that advice, it turns out I was right, they end up
spending a bunch of money, it doesn’t happen like it should.
So my advice to my partners and my advice to all my students is make sure
you run with the winners. Make sure you run with people who really deserve
to be successful.
Simple question: Right now we’re on step one, actually the early part of step
one. I call it the uncovering; you’re trying to uncover the truth about this
company, so you have to dig, and dig and dig.
And you have to be undisturbed, looking for that little diamond. You have to
look for that special little nugget of truth that you’re going to build this
campaign on. You’ll notice, Daniel, I did not use the term “unique selling
proposition.”
Dan:
Yes.
Roy:
I vehemently do not believe in a unique selling proposition. Rarely,
rarely, rarely does it exist.
Most of the time, if a person gets on that bandwagon called the “unique
selling proposition bandwagon,” this is how the conversation will go: They
will say, “Well, tell me, Daniel, what is true about your company that’s not
true about your competitors.”
And see, if you start looking for something that’s true of this company but
not true of anybody else, you’ll wind up with some insignificant little crap
that nobody cares about.
Now, it’s true of your client and it’s not true of their competitors, but guess
what? It’s not a selling proposition, either. You’re trying to make a big deal
happen out of a little deal. I’ve seen that happen so many times it is
unbelievable.
So I tell people, “I’m looking for the sword in the stone. I’m looking…”
Remember the legend of King Arthur and the Sword in the Stone? Only the
true and rightful king could move that sword. Only the true and rightful king.
Now, only that person with unconditional authority to say absolutely yes,
only that per- son can change that axis around which everything revolves.
That core belief.
Now, that is not always unique, Daniel. It is not always unique to that
company.
You see, the truth is, if something is truly a selling proposition, your
competitors are not going to let it be unique for very long.
So, why would you build a campaign on something that is also true of your
competitors?
Because just because it’s also true about them doesn’t mean they’re deeply
committed to it. The sword in the stone is the axis around which everything
revolves in the company. It is that core belief.
It is the non-negotiable standard. Daniel, build the campaign around that.
Give the client a campaign that totally encompasses who and what they
actually are. Even though this characteristic may also be true of their
competitors, it won’t be as true as their competitors.
So it’s not a unique thing, but you’re going to promise… In this ad or this
campaign you need to promise that your client is going to really, really, really
deliver.
And so if you get hung up on the fact that it has to be unique you’re going to
wind up making a campaign around something that nobody cares about. And
so this idea of looking for the sword in the stone, looking for the focal idea,
the axis around which everything revolves in that company, and don’t worry
about whether or not it’s unique.
Worry about whether it’s key to the essence of the identity of the company
you’re writing this campaign for.
Now, the first question you have to ask this business owner when you have
finally found that thing that is the real essence of the company, that’s the
reason they exist, you then have to ask how will success be measured? “I’m
going to write these ads for you. What is it I’m supposed to make happen?
And I’m not asking you Mr. CEO what you consider success to me; I’m
asking how we are going to measure it together. It needs to be an objective
thing that I can participate in the measurement of, because sir, I refuse to be
subjected to your whims.
I refuse to have to check with you and find out what kind of mood you’re in
and how you feel the advertising is working.
To hell with that! I don’t care how you feel the advertising is working. I want
to know what is the needle on the meter that I need to make go upwards. You
tell me how we’re going to measure it. Is it the number of cars off the lot? Is
it the number of dollars in the cash register? Is it the customer count through
the front door? You tell me what we’re going to measure because that’s what
I’m going to make happen.” Now, the one thing that it can’t be is net profits.
I tell every advertising professional in the world you do not count expenses.
Therefore, you want to measure top line, not bottom line. Top line is
customer count, the number of cars out the door. Whether they spent money
on these cars or not, I don’t care. You know why?
I don’t decide how much to sell them for; I’m just bringing the customers in
to look at the cars.
Once again you’re at the mercy of the client. When you’re an advertising
professional, if their salespeople are crummy or their in-store experience is
crummy, or they have a competitor that’s really better than they are, then you
are not going to have a wonderful relationship.
And so you’ll want to make this clear, Daniel, very early in our interview. I
cheat; I cheat like a wild man. I only work for business owners who really are
good at what they do.
Here’s a question that every advertising professional should ask every
prospective client: “All the people who don’t do business with you, is it
because they don’t know about you or is it because they do?”
You go to a town where somebody’s been in business say, forty years. You
will find very often everybody knows about this company. It’s not that they
don’t know about them. The reason they don’t do business with them is
because they do know about them.
Does that make sense to you?
Dan:
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Roy:
And so whenever you’re going to write ads for that client, if they’re
not committed to change, run. Run like the wind. Get away from there.
Dan:
Because there’s nothing you can do.
Roy:
You’re right. You’re just going to be backing out and explaining,
and apologizing and making excuses.
To hell with that! There’s too many people out there who are good at what
they do, who deliver an exceptional customer experience. Find those people
and work for them. Make sense?
Dan:
Makes sense, makes sense.
Roy:
It’s just insane! Now, the idea of the uncovering is that the Cheshire
Cat, in Alice in Wonderland said, “If you don’t know where you’re going,
any road will get you there.”
And see, too many people sit down and write ads and they don’t know where
they’re going.
You have to decide what it is you’re going to make happen. You have to
understand how success will be measured. “What is it I’m trying to make
happen?”
In other words: “How will this whole thing end?” And only when you know
where it will end can you decide where to begin. “Now that I see the end,
now that I understand what I’m trying to make happen, now I know where to
begin.”
Imagine a map: You’re going to take a journey, and if you pull into a gas
station, Daniel, and you’re going to ask for directions, what is the person
probably going to ask you? You say, “Yeah, I need some directions.”
Dan:
Where do you want to go?
Roy:
“Where do you want to go?” And what if you say, “I don’t know, I
just want to go a hundred miles an hour”?
Then the guys going to say, “You know, tell me where you want to go and
I’ll try to tell you the best road so you can get there at a hundred miles an
hour, but I still need to know where you’re going to go.”
Now, can you imagine, and this is how most business owners are when you
start this conversation, “You’re supposed to be giving me directions, damn it!
I told you I wanted to go a hundred miles an hour, now how do I do it?!”
Like, “You know what? Until we draw an ‘X’ on the map, I can tell you that
you are here. I’ll draw one ‘X’. Now, you need to draw an ‘X’ on the map to
tell me where we’re going together. What are we trying to make happen?
There needs to be something that I can see and measure on my own, thank
you.”
So how does this thing end? What are we trying to make happen? And
number two; where do we begin? I can tell you where we are. And then the
first step is what to leave out. How to end, where to begin and then what to
leave out.
Most ads, Daniel, have way too much in them. They’re covering way too
many things.
A good ad makes one point very powerfully. It’s a rhinoceros, not a
porcupine. One point, very powerfully, overwhelmingly. If you’ve gotten
different things you need to say, then you need ten different ads in that
campaign.
And so, how to end, where to begin and what to leave out. A brilliant writer
is a brilliant editor. They’re willing to cut stuff and fight the client about it.
They’re willing to sacrifice secondary things so they can make a primary
point overwhelmingly. Now, all of that is just figuring out what are we trying
to make happen? How will we measure success?
The next thing: How long is the time horizon? “How will we measure?” is
question one. “When will we measure?” is question two. “Am I trying to
make something happen by Saturday, or am I trying to make something
happen this year?” Do you understand?
Dan:
Yep.
Roy:
It dramatically changes the strategy. Great copy is an expression of
great strategy. You cannot have an effective ad with bad strategy.
When are we going to measure success? Now, if you tell me that we need to
sell a certain number of cars, okay. By when? Do I have like a three-week
window or do I have all year?
Because how I’m going to approach this is dependent entirely on the right
thing to do in the short term is the entirely wrong thing to do for the long
term. And the right thing to do in the long term is probably not going to work
in the short term.
And so are we trying to create a special event? In which case, good luck,
because when this is over you’re just going to have to do it all over again.
That’s just a downward spiral. Or are you trying to become a household
word? In other words, are you trying to attract relational or transactional
customers?
Now, the truth is you’re not a hundred-dollar bill; not everyone is going to
like you.
But, the relational customer thinks long term; they consider today’s
transaction to be one in a series of many transactions. They do not like
comparison shopping or negotiating.
Their only fear is of making a poor choice. They fear they’ll buy the wrong
one. Therefore, they’re looking to find an expert they can trust. Their hope is
not just an expert, but one they can trust. And they consider their time spent
shopping to be part of the purchase price.
Therefore, if they can find an expert who will just tell them “This is the one
you want. This is the right one and here’s why it’s the right one,” they go
“Great. Boy, am I so glad I found you.” Why? The cost was transferred.
And then if they did get good advice, they’re the person who’s going to be a
customer for life. It’s not just the store they’re going to buy from; they’re
going to track down that salesperson.
And so the relational customer is very likely to be a repeat customer.
But, there’s another kind of customer called the transactional customer. They
think short term. They care only about today’s transaction. Forget yesterday,
forget tomorrow. They enjoy the process of shopping and of negotiating, and
their only fear is that they’ll pay more than they have to pay.
For them, the nightmare would be to find out after they bought it that they
could have gotten it a little cheaper somewhere else. It kills them, and they’re
willing to spend a lot of time investigating and shopping because they’re
enjoying it. And they consider them- selves the experts.
The reason that Consumer Reports is printed is for all the people who are in
transactional shopping mode. They want to be their own expert. Every
transaction will end on price.
Now, the transactional customer is a very good source of word-of-mouth
advertising. In other words, they’re so proud of the great deal they got they’ll
tell the world. And by the way, everyone, Daniel, all of us are both
transactional and relational, but not at the same time.
Dan:
I agree.
Roy:
In some categories you’re highly transactional. In some categories
you’re highly relational.
And I may be exactly the opposite of you. Your transactional categories
might be relational for me; my relational categories might be transactional for
you.
And so understand, when you’re writing an ad, “Am I writing to somebody in
transactional shopping mode or am I writing to someone in relational
shopping mode?”
You have to decide to whom are you speaking, because they’ll have totally
different values. One wants to save time, the other wants to save money. And,
Daniel, time and money are interchangeable. You can always save one by
spending more of the other.
Dan:
That’s right.
Roy:
Now, what is it the customer has in mind? Are you going to speak
to the transactional customer, where the whole language, the whole paradigm,
the whole perspective is speaking to the transactional customer? Or are you
going to speak to the relational customer?
You cannot speak to both in the same ad. Now, the relational customer is
infinitely more profitable. They’re a person who is willing to let you make
money.
The transactional customer is committed to making sure you don’t make
money. Their goal is to buy it at your cost or less. These are the kinds of
conversations you have to have with business owners before you get started.
You have to understand. We haven’t started writing copy yet. We’re still
doing an investigation, still determining, Daniel, the rules of the game. Okay?
And so the next thing you do is you start looking for what I call the unleveraged asset.
A good ad writer says, “Okay. What do we have to work with that isn’t being
used? What hidden strengths do we have?” And it’s not always money.
Sometimes it’s certain relationships. Sometimes it is… oh, there are just an
infinite number of silly things. It could be location, or it could be flexibility
in store hours, or return policies, or whatever. It’s a story that’s never been
told.
So you’re looking for something you’ve got on the plus side of the ledger,
that you say, “You know what? This is a valuable tool. You haven’t used this,
but you should.” So you’re looking for the unleveraged assets. You’re
looking for something that can be leveraged.
Now, this is about to get tricky. Remember, Daniel, what I was saying about
getting out of your seat in the stadium and moving to an entirely different
part of the stadium, because the game looks like an entirely different game
from a different position in the stadium.
Business owners need to do that. Now, what I call “business problem
topology” … Topology is actually a science. Marie Poincare, a French
mathematician in the late 1800s, invented topology. And for anyone who
wants to look that up it’s spelled P-O-I-N-C-A-R-E.
Anyway, algebraic topology is the science of categorizing items according to
their shape. Now, businesses and the challenges that businesses face have a
shape.
And understand that no matter what it is, no matter what industry you’re in,
this movie has played before. You’ve got to find somebody who knows how
it ends, from somebody who is not in your industry.
You need to find what I call a parallel business, a business that has faced the
same problem that you faced, and they overcame it. Because what is old
technology in another industry can be a revolutionary concept in your
industry. So you’re looking for somebody who has a problem with similar
defining characteristics to the problem that you face.
Now, what I call the problem is the limiting factor. Every business has a
limiting factor that’s holding them back.
Now, let me give you a couple of examples.
The very first one and perhaps the best known… and by the way, what I’m
describing right now is done before you write copy. Remember I told you:
Even marginal copy, even barely competent copy will work miracles if
you’re implementing a brilliant strategy.
Success in advertising is actually a product of coming up with the right angle,
the right strategy, and the right way to approach this.
And so once you’ve found a business with a similar limiting factor… The
best-known example is probably Henry Ford. He did not invent the
automobile. Gustav Daimler and Karl Benz invented the automobile in 1886.
That car company is known as Mercedes-Benz today. Henry Ford didn’t
build his first car until 1901. He started the Ford Motor Company in 1903.
So cars had been around for 17 years before Henry ever built his first Model
T. And so literally, people don’t realize this; there were two thousand garages
worldwide who had built one car before Henry Ford ever built one.
He also did not invent the assembly line, and most people think he did. The
simple truth was, he said, “You know… Everyone has the same problem
building cars. They have to sell them for more money than people can afford.
All two thousands of us have the same problem: it takes a year to build a car.
You have to have an expert mechanic who can make a good selection of tools
and have all the knowledge. You have to have him build this car, and to sell it
for profit you’d have to charge like, $2,500,” and people didn’t have that kind
of money.
So he said, “How can I get more expert mechanics? I need a bunch of expert
mechanics, and how can I find them? If I want to build cars faster I need to
have better mechanics.”
And so he said, “Who ever had a problem like mine?” And then he decided,
he was curious. He was in Detroit, of course, and he said, “The meatpackers
in Chicago! How do the meat packers slaughter all those pigs and send out
boxcar-load after boxcar-load of pork every day?
And certainly you’d have to be an expert butcher with all kinds of knives and
all kinds of specialized knowledge to get maximum yield from a carcass. Do
they have some kind of accelerated training program? How do they get these
expert butchers?”
And so Henry Ford went to Chicago, walked into a big meatpacking plant,
talked to the foreman and the foreman showed him.
He said, “See, here’s a hook on a wheel and it runs along that track on the
ceiling. And on this hook is the carcass of a pig. And it goes from oink to
Saran Wrap in about one minute.”
And it was a long line of guys, each one had one knife. Each one was holding
a different type of specialized knife, each one of them made one cut as this
pig came rolling by on this overhead rail. It was an assembly line.
Henry looked at that and said, “Oh, my God. Instead of using an overhead
rail, and starting with a complete pig, I will have an underneath conveyor
belt. And instead of starting with something complete and ending with a
skeleton, I’ll start with a skeleton and end with something complete.
And instead of each man having a knife and cutting off one piece, my guys
will have a wrench and they’ll add one piece.”
And did you know that within a few years, he was turning out a Model T…
Literally, at one end of the factory that was a mile long on the River Rue, and
at one end he had ships coming in on the river with iron ore, and at the other
end he had Model Ts driving out the other end of that factory every twentyone seconds.
Dan:
My God.
Roy:
Every twenty-one seconds. He didn’t invent the assembly line. He
said the guy at the meatpacking plant, “How long have you been doing this?
This is amazing!” “Oh, about forty years.”
Dan:
Forty years.
Roy:
Forty years! Old technology, Daniel.
And so my favorite example, however, is Steven Sanger. He is the President
and CEO of General Mills. I did the math, and it’s been awhile since I did it
so I may be incorrect, but I think it’s like General Mills, now that they
acquired Pillsbury, it’s such a huge Fortune 500 company… I divided the
number of hours in a day and the number of days in a year into the amount of
money General Mills makes every year.
It was something like $18 million an hour. $18 million an hour 24/7.
Now, Steven Sanger is a young President, and he said, “What limiting factor
do I have? What is a problem that I’ve got?”
And he said, “My problem is that in my factories” – and of course it’s a
manufacturing company, they manufacture food – “these machines that make
Cheerios and Oreos and BisQuik, these machines… Every time I have to
change products, from one product to the next product, it takes these
engineers between five and six hours to reconfigure these complex machines
to make a different product.
Now, $18 million an hour and it’s taking five or six hours… you’re at a
hundred million dollars every time you go from Oreos to Cheerios.”
Now, this is a problem. And he said, “Has anybody ever had a problem like
mine?” And Steven Sanger was way too smart to go looking at other food
manufacturing companies, right?
They’re not going to have a revolutionary strategy for solving his problem.
You know what he did?
When he boiled the problem down… And when you’re in advertising you
have to learn to do this. You have to learn to do this or you’re just going to
chase your tail like a dog.
Too many ad writers chase their tail like a dog, Daniel, because they have
stupid strategies. They pick a stupid think to try to sell, there’s no way in the
world they’re going to sell it.
No matter how good the ad you write it’s a crap idea.
Dan:
And then they wonder why it doesn’t work!
Roy:
Exactly! It’s like, you know, you win or lose when you come up
with a fundamental strategy.
You don’t have to the best writer in the world, you have to have the best idea
in the world.
You have to come at it from the best angle. So you have to get your butt up
out of your seat where you normally sit in the stadium; you have to move to a
different seat in the stadium.
Now what seat did Steven Sanger move to? He said, “Okay. Here’s my
challenge. I need to reconfigure complex mechanical stuff really fast.”
So he got all of his process engineers, all of his plant engineers together. He
gave them tickets to the Indianapolis 500. He said, “Now you go and take
cameras with you, and be there before anybody shows up at the racetrack.
Be there when the drivers pull in.” And those pit crews, if you’ve ever
watched a race when a driver pulls in for a pit stop, and the pit crew… I
mean, they can like… The driver gets out, has a shower and a shave and a
sandwich, and they can put four new wheels and tires on a car, a new
transmission and left front fender, change the steering gear, adjust all the air
deflectors and maybe replace the windshield in like, twelve seconds.
And he said, “These guys have it down to such a science that they can do two
days’ work in twelve seconds, ten seconds, nine seconds. I want you to study
those guys. Don’t pay attention to whom wins the race, we don’t care who
wins the race. Study those guys closely, watch every single motion they
make.
Every motion. Study how they do all of that work to that car that fast.”
So they came home, and within a few weeks of studying these pit crews at
the Indianapolis 500, these General Mills plant engineers were able to reduce
the time it took them to reconfigure all these machines to twenty-one
minutes.
It used to take five to six hours at $18 million an hour; it now takes 21
minutes.
Now Steven Sanger, the CEO of General Mills has a college degree. Guess
what his degree is in.
Dan:
Engineering.
Roy:
History. See, it was Winston Churchill who said “The further
backwards we look the farther ahead we will see.” And whenever I said
earlier to find someone who’s seen this movie…
There’s no such thing as a movie that hasn’t already played. Countless other
people have faced the situation you face. Find someone who faced the same
problem you face but not in your industry. Similar problems, different
industries.
And there, Daniel, is where you’ll find brilliant, absolutely revolutionary
concepts for creating a winning strategy.
And I had a student, a guy named Joe Schaffer has a small chain of martial
arts studios, teaches Kung Fu. And he attended the Academy and we were
teaching this concept, and instead of saying to me, “Mr. Williams, I’m in
martial art s, what should I study?” He under- stood it, he knew it was going
to take some time to think about it.
And you can find a different business, I call it a parallel business… You can
find a different business to study for each problem you face.
So it’s not going to be a similar business in every respect, but it’s going to be
a business that shares a similar problem you share.
And so he said the thing that probably bothered him the most, he said “You
know, Roy, every student that signs up, we tell them over and over and over
that it will be at least six months before they really start feeling good about
their martial arts involvement”.
It’s something you have to stick with for those early weeks and early months
when you feel like you’re not getting anywhere. You don’t feel like you want
to continue.
They all say, ‘Oh, yeah, oh yeah, I understand,’ but then after that they tell
you they’re deciding about whether to come back every time.
Every stinking lesson they’re deciding whether they want to come back and
continue. They don’t commit to stick with it for six months no matter what
happens. They’re always deciding, every session, whether they want to come
back or not.”
And he said, “So, gee, who has ever faced a problem like that before, where
the customer’s been told it’s going to take several months to get the benefits
they’re looking for, but yet they’re evaluating it every day?” So what was it
that my friend Joe Schaffer decided to study?
What was the next convention he went to? The diet industry. And he said,
“You would not believe the people who buy Weight-Watchers and Jenny
Craig and all these multi-billion dollar diet industry.”
It’s a huge, huge industry and they face that same problem. Everybody knows
that they’re not going to lose the weight and they’re not going to have this
benefit for weeks and weeks and weeks.
And they’re having to decide about whether to stay on that diet every day.
Dan:
Every meal.
Roy:
Every meal, yeah. And so my friend Joe Schaffer began consulting
and studying with these people in the diet industry, and of course they’re
willing to tell him anything he wants to know.
The same way Henry Ford went to the meatpackers, they’re willing to tell
him anything that he wants to know.
Why? Because he’s not in their business; he’s not a competitor. And so this
idea… The same thing when we started Wizard Academy, Daniel. I said,
“Okay, what am I trying to make happen? I’m trying to teach people.
We want to change how people think and how they feel about something. We
want to change how people think and feel.
Okay. Now, who has ever wanted to change how people think and feel? And
I’m not going to say politicians or educators. I’m not even going to say
ministers; that would be too obvious. Who has really markedly changed how
we think and how we feel and they’ve done it in a short period of time?”
Artists. Every painter: Monet, Rembrandt, Picasso. Every poet: Robert Frost,
Carl Sandburg, Emily Dickinson. Every musician who ever wrote a song,
even instrumental songs: Beethoven, Mozart, They change our mood.
Every photographer, every really brilliant photographer who took a Pulitzerprize winning photograph.
These people very often explain their technique, and so I decided that I would
study the people who had dramatically altered the course of human history
because they were such a giant in the land.
So I would find out what it was they did and how they did it, and I would try
to app ly those ideas to the concept of liking words. And so we teach people
how to write in the way that Claude Monet painted. We teach people how to
write in the way that Robert Plank took photographs.
And so you have these different techniques. We even teach people how to use
symbolic paintings using James Michener’s specific advice. See, all these
people explained how they did their photography, or their painting, or their
writing of novels.
By the way, shortly before he died, James Michener, who, by the way,
Daniel, he’s a guy who was raised in deep poverty. As a matter of fact, he
never knew who his parents were.
James Michener was one of the most successful novelists in the history of the
world. He was a baby left on the doorstep literally. A baby left on the
doorstep, and the doorstep he was left on was an old poor widow named
Mable. And Mable Michener wasn’t his mother but she was a woman that
literally did laundry for other people for a living.
And so she raised James as her own, even though he wasn’t. And he never
had a new pair of shoes, n ever had new clothes. But did you know that while
he was writing his novels he gave away to universities and libraries $117
million in cash.
Dan:
Wow.
Roy:
That is how successful he was as a writer. And in one of his last
books called This Noble Land, he explained his technique for storytelling.
Dan:
Ooh, what’s the book again?
Roy:
This Noble Land.
Dan:
Okay.
Roy:
Now, let me tell you the two things that he describes, and one of the
courses in the Magical Worlds curriculum… The Magical Worlds. This is the
three-day curriculum where we teach Monet and Frank, and we talk about
Jack Kerouac and Paul Simon and just a whole host of legends.
And there’s a James Michener session, and it was two Japanese illustrators.
You’ll have to forgive me because I’m probably mispronouncing them, but
the spelling looks like it would be pronounced Hakusai and Hiroshiga.
But he actually collected their prints. Hakusai and Hiroshiga were both in the
mid-eighteen hundreds, and he wrote the same way they illustrated. And so I
got all of their illustrations and put them together in a video presentation.
The other thing, he said he was going to write exactly the way that
Beethoven…
I believe it was Beethoven’s… Well, I’ll have to look. It was either the
Fourth or the Ninth. Beethoven’s Fourth Concerto for Piano.
And he explained he was at a concert one time listening to that concerto. And
it occurred to him the composer had done an incredibly bold thing in
composing.
Beethoven had just done this amazing thing that took a lot of courage as a
composer. And he decided that what Beethoven did in that concerto, he
would do as an author.
And so when you’re looking at the illustrations of Hakusai and Hiroshiga,
and you’re listening to Beethoven’s Fourth Concerto, and you just got
through reading James Michener’s words of exactly how these influenced
him, and exactly what he was trying to imitate using these as his models… It
just becomes frightening.
If you’ve ever read a James Michener book you sudden ly go, “Oh my God. I
get it. I get what he was doing.”
And so symbolic thinking, finding out “What will be my feel? What will be
my muse? What will be my style? What will I emulate? What am I trying to
capture?”
And the writers will always write words the way that somebody painted or
the way that somebody played music, or the way that somebody took
photographs.
They will always get their inspiration from something that seems ridiculous,
something that seems absurd. And that’s true 100% of the time. And so
teaching people how to tap into that, okay, is teaching them how to have an
adaptable style.
You don’t have just one way that you tell a story. You can shift stylistically
into whatever respect.
As a matter of fact, when you write using the techniques of Claude Monet…
This is not an abstract thing, by the way. Claude Monet explained in detail
the principles of impressionism. And if you use those same principles you
will write impressionistically in the same way that Claude Monet painted
impressionistically, and it has the same effect. It has the same effect on
people.
Now, only now, Daniel, are we ready to actually begin writing an ad.
Everything that we’ve talked about so far is before you even write a word.
You haven’t begun writing the ad yet.
All of those decisions have to be made before you ever begin writing the ad.
And then once you have done all those things that I just told you about,
writing the ad takes minutes.
Dan:
Yep. Makes it much easier.
Roy:
It’s unbelievably easy, because you have it all mapped out.
Suddenly it falls together; it’s not a problem.
It is foolish to discuss ad copy before a core message and a strategy have
been agreed on.
Great ideas become bad ideas when they’re introduced to a client whose
goals are other than you intended. Leo Burnett, the great Leo Burnett said, “I
am one who believes that one of the greatest dangers in advertising is not of
misleading people, but of boring them to death.”
Walter Reeves said, “You must make the product interesting, not just make
the ad different.” And that’s what too many copywriters in the US today still
don’t understand.
Winston Churchill: “If you have an important point to make, don’t try to be
subtle or clever. Use a pile driver. Hit the point once, then come back and hit
it again. Then hit it a third time, a tremendous whack.” Now that, whenever I
said make one point loudly like a rhinoceros, okay? That’s what I was talking
about. Winston Churchill just said it a little more powerfully, I think.
Dan:
And then David Ogilvy, one of my favorites…
Roy:
Yes. He said, “Advertising is a business of words, but the business
in infected with men and women who cannot write. They cannot write
advertisements and they cannot write plans. They are helpless and destitute
on the stage of the Metropolitan Opera.”
And I fight against that.
I tell people, “You know if you do not love language, and if you do not
commit yourself to harnessing the majesty and the magic and the energy of
the language, then please don’t get into advertising. Please, please don’t tell
people that you know how to grow their business.” It’s nutty. If making a
profit were quick and easy everyone would be doing it.
Dan:
That’s right.
Roy:
And that is, in a nutshell, exactly the bizarre approach that I take.
You see, Daniel, you have listeners and readers who will say, “You know
what? I always kind of believed that one.”
And they will say, “You know what? He didn’t tell me something so very
new just now, he just crystallized what I’ve had tumbling around inside me
for a long, long time.”
And so what I’ve been doing these past few years is just raising the flag and
saying, “Hey! Everybody who’s a member of this tribe, you’re not alone.”
It’s like an official tribe now, you know? And so often when people come to
the academy they go, “Wow, I have found my people.”
I’m just codifying and making official what a certain group of misfits and
mavericks and renegades have been doing for years.
I tell them on the very first day of the school, I say, “You know, one of the
very best gifts I’m going to give you over the next few days is the gift of each
other, because you’re going to stay in touch with each other.”
At our last Academy, a couple of weeks ago… Once a year we have a
Wizardry Academy reunion. Daniel, we had people from Korea, from
Iceland, from Brazil. We had people from Australia, literally all over the
world.
Not just our partners, our branch partners, but our student who graduated
from the Academy a year or two or three years ago, they’ll come to the
reunion just to meet all the other graduates because it’s like family.
And they stay in touch with each other and their attitude is, “Yeah. Everyone
really is stupid except for us.”
Whenever you’ve always kind of felt something your whole life, and you
could never find anyone else who felt the same as you did. So you never
learned to say anything, you learned, “I want everyone to think I’m the same
so I’ll just go with the flow and do it the way everybody else does it.”
And then they finally find out, “Wait a minute. I’m not alone! I have people!”
And so I wanted to deflect the question, whenever you said “replicate
yourself’? I really don’t. I find people who have always been like me, and I
just get them together.
Dan:
Now, Roy, I know we are going a little bit overtime. Do you mind
if I ask you one more quick question?
Roy:
No, go ahead.
Dan:
I want to talk a little bit about branding, because I know you have a
very different perspective when it comes to branding. What are the key
elements to building a successful brand?
Roy:
Oh, gee. Probably, Daniel, this is… The one thing I think I probably
feel the strongest about, adamant about, is most people who pretend to know
how to do branding don’t have any idea what they’re talking about.
And it makes me angry, because branding is not a new and mysterious thing.
As a matter of fact, do you know who won the Nobel Prize for discovering
branding in 1904?
Dan:
I forgot.
Roy:
Ivan Pavlov. Ivan Pavlov, if you’ll remember, spread meat paste on
the nose of a dog and rang a bell.
The dog began to associate the sound of the bell with the taste of meet. Voila,
branding was born. Psychologically, branding is simply to implant an
associative memory in combination with a recall cue.
Now, an associative memory is a memory that has become linked to another
memory. See, dogs link the sound of the bell to the taste of meat. Now, a
recall cue is simply a mental trigger, which prompts a reader, a listener or a
viewer to take a pre- scribed action at an appointed time.
A recall cue.
In this case the recall cue was the sound of the bell that was attached to the
taste of the meat, and the dog would begin to salivate even though there was
no meat.
What we’re trying to make happen here, branding, we’re trying to be the
company or the product the customer thinks of immediately and the one they
fell the best about when they have need of what we sell.
When they need what we sell we need to be the name that pops into their
minds unbid- den. There are three different levels of memory. Working
memory is the thought you are thinking now. Declarative memory is
information you can recall if you think about it. But procedural memory is
involuntary and automatic. That’s where branding is lodged.
Procedural memory, according to neurologists, is a function of salient, which
is the neurological term for important or relevant. Salient times repetition.
The more salient the message the more impact it has, the less repetition you
need for the permanent, chemical long-term memory.
Short-term memory, working memory, imagination, the thought you’re
thinking now, conscious awareness; working memory is electrical. Short
term. But procedural memory is chemical and long term.
Now, the three keys of planting a memory in the mind, the three steps to
branding are #1, Consistency. Pavlov never offered food without ringing the
bell; he never rang the bell without offering food.
Dan:
Okay.
Roy:
In other words he didn’t keep changing the campaign. He didn’t
say, “Oh, I’m not sure, uh, maybe this is a visual dog.” Right?
Second, frequency; Pavlov knew he was going to have to do this day after
day after day after day. He did not come out at the end of six or eight weeks
and say, “Uh, this isn’t working. I maybe targeted the wrong dog.
This is not a dog that likes meat, perhaps.”
The third key, and most people get frequency and consistency. Consistency
and frequency; stick with the campaign and hammer, hammer, hammer. But
where people miss it is anchoring.
Dan:
Anchoring.
Roy:
Anchoring. You see, when implanting an associative memory, the
recall cue (which in Pavlov’s case was the sound of a bell), the recall cue
must be associated with a memory that is already anchored in the mind. In
this case it was the dog’s love for the taste of meat.
Frequency and consistency create branding only when your message is tied to
an already established emotional anchor.
Pavlov’s branding campaign was anchored to the dog’s love for the taste of
the meat. If the dog did not love meat, the frequent and consistent ringing of
the bell would have produced no response other than annoying the dog.
The dog would have said, “Hey, would you shut up with the bell already? I
told you, I hate advertising.” “Well, gee, Dog, why do you hate advertising?”
“Because it’s never about me or anything I care about!
It’s always about some idiot, their phone number, their fast and friendly
service, the number of years they’ve been in business. Hey, Buddy: Here’s a
quarter, go call your Mama who gives a damn!”
Dan:
Roy, you’re hilarious.
Roy:
Well, it’s the way that people think. People hate advertising because
it’s always about some stupid moron and a bunch of stuff the customer
doesn’t care about.
So you’ve got to talk to the dog in the language of what matters to the dog.
In 1994 I was at DeBeers in London doing a seminar with all the jewelers
from England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales, because my jewelry store client
sold twenty times more diamonds than their competitors. On average, the
stores that I consult sold twenty times more diamonds.
And this came to the attention of DeBeers and they said, “How are you doing
this?” I said, “Hey, look. Nobody in the world ever woke up, rubbed his eyes
and said ‘Hey, you know I need to learn about color, cut, clarity and karat
weight. I want to learn to buy diamonds the way jewelers buy diamonds.’
Nobody ever said that’s what they needed. Nobody ever said, ‘Boy, it’s been
a long time since I had really good color, cut, clarity and karat weight.’ Not
one of them.”
Now, what does a man pay for when he buys a diamond? He’s paying for the
woman he loves reaction.
Dan:
Absolutely.
Roy:
Don’t describe the diamond, describe the women’s reaction. Don’t
describe the proper- ties and characteristics of the diamond, describe the
properties and characteristics of the woman.
Talk to the dog in the language of the dog, of what matters to the dog. If you
start talking to a man about the woman he loves, he will sell things he doesn’t
own so he can buy that diamond for her.
Talk to the dog, let him taste the meat. Talk to the customer in the language
of the customer, of what matters to the customer.
That’s anchoring. Make sure you’re talking about something people care
about.
You have frequency, you have consistency, and you have anchoring. Most
people get frequency and consistency; they forget anchoring. If you don’t
have an anchor, then you’re stupid.
Dan:
Wonderful. Now, Roy, how can our listeners get in touch with you
and get a hold of your products?
Roy:
Oh, www.wizardacademy.com.WizardAcademy.com, and of course
all of our books and stuff you can buy in most bookstores. You can also get
them at www.wizardacademy- press.com. All of my partners also have books
out so there’s lots of cool stuff.
It’s www.wizardacademypress.com.Thanks for letting me be with you today,
Daniel.
Jon Spoelstra - Author of Marketing
Outrageously
Jon Spoelstra’s reputation as one of the most innovative and successful sports
marketers is well earned, as has been clearly demonstrated at every stop in his
career. Jon is the president of Mandalay Sports Entertainment Pro Teams
Division.
Under his leadership, one of Mandalay’s Teams, the Dayton Dragons, set a
record that had never been achieved before. It sold out every ticket to every
game during the season. The Dragons have gone on to repeat that
accomplishment now for a remarkable four straight seasons.
The New Jersey Nets. As President and COO of the Nets, a position which he
held for three years, Jon dramatically increased ticket and sponsorship sales.
During his tenure, the team set its all-time attendance record. Sell-outs at
Meadowlands Arena increased from zero to 25. Local sponsorship sales went
up from $400,000 to $7 million.
SRO Partners. Jon was the founder and chairman of SRO Partners, a sports
marketing consulting firm that works with teams in the NBA, NHL, MLB,
and teams in Japan and Spain.
Portland Trailblazers. In the 11 years that Jon served as Senior Vice President
and General Manager of the Blazers, he helped to make the front office a
model for all team sports. During his time there, there was never a game that
wasn't sold out.
Jon was the focus of what was perhaps the strangest trade in sports history.
The Portland Trailblazers were in need of a guard to fill a hole created by
injury. The guard that the Blazers wanted was a starting point guard for the
Indiana Pacers. The compensation to the Pacers wasn't a player, but one week
of Spoelstra’s time. Jon played a key role in the restructuring of the Pacer’s
front office during that time frame.
Jon has written three books. Bard Press released his newest book, Marketing
Outrageously: How to Increase Your Revenues by Staggering Amounts, in
July of 2001. It became a Wall Street Journal bestseller.
HarperCollins published Ice to the Eskimos, a general marketing book based
on Jon’s sports marketing strategies, in June of 1997.The book is a lively
blueprint on how to take any product that isn't the best in its field and jump
start sales and profits. It became a top seller in Japan.
Dell Star Books published And Success is Just One Wish Away, a
motivational book on how anybody can develop a passion for their job and
life, in June of 1999
Dan:
Jon, I've got a bunch of questions for you. Before we dig in, talk to
us about how you first got started. Tell us about your early days.
Joe:
If we went back to really my early days, when I was 13 or 14 years
old and a paperboy in Detroit, Michigan, this was when I really got my first
feel for marketing. I didn't even know the word “marketing” at the time.
I had 50 papers that I would deliver. I noticed after a while that about every
other house I rode by didn't subscribe to the paper I was delivering.
A few months later, I figured out that if I could get some of those people to
subscribe to the paper, I would make more money but I wouldn't ride my bike
any further. I’d ride my bike the same distance, but I’d deliver more papers
and thus make more money.
I hand-wrote my first direct response letter. I got the names of these people.
Basically I identified myself as, “I’m the kid that drives by every day
delivering papers. It’s a terrific paper. I think you’d find interest in it. If
you’d like to try it for a week, just hang this thing on your door knob.” I had
a little hangtag that I made up. “I collect once a month.”
I would deliver the paper free for that first week as a sample. After a period
of two or three months, my route had expanded from 50 to 100 people. I
didn't have to ride my bike that much further. I was making twice the money.
That was really my first lesson, when I was 13 or 14 years old and didn't even
understand the word marketing.
Dan:
You were doing direct response marketing.
Jon:
I got into direct response. Nobody really called it “direct response”
at the time. If any- thing, they might have called it direct marketing.
Dan:
What happened next?
Jon:
I went to college. I never majored in marketing. In fact, I knew
guys who majored in marketing. I thought, “Why would they go to college
just to go work in the supermarket?” I didn't even know what marketing
meant when I was in college.
I majored in communication arts, mainly because the courses were relatively
easy. The professors were terrific, and I really got caught up in it. They
taught the fundamentals of the written word, the spoken word, and the visual
word.
When I got out of college, I couldn't get a job except in sales. I really wanted
to work for an ad agency. When I’d apply they’d say, “You didn't major in
advertising.” I’d go to a newspaper and say I wanted to become a newspaper
writer. They’d say, “You didn't major in journalism.”
All of these things were touched upon in my major, communication arts , but
I hadn't majored in the specific field. I got into sales.
I was married early, and I’m still married to the same woman. I got into sales
because that was the only job I could get. I was probably unhappy every day
of the week, including Saturday and Sunday. I didn't have to go out and sell
Saturday and Sunday, but I was unhappy because I was thinking I would
have to go out and sell something on Monday.
I realized that I probably was going to be in sales for quite a while because I
couldn't get another job. I thought, “If I’m going to be in sales, I’d better get
better at it.” I went to the bookstore and bought three books on selling. I read
through those and kept copious notes on how the principles in those books
applied to what I was selling. Over a period of a couple of years, I bought
every sales book known to mankind.
I subscribed, back in the ‘70s, to this thing called the Executive Record Club.
Once a month, you could get a business record from salespeople sent to you.
Every month, I’d get this new long-playing record. I’d hook up the tape
recorder and tape it, and have that recording with me when I drove around. I
listened to some of these old-time salespeople.
I was doing a little bit of traveling at the time. One guy lived in Denver, and I
was going to be in Denver. I called him. This was when people used to have
their names listed in the phone book. I met this sales guy. Hartsell Wilson
was his name. There was another guy in Boston, Jack Lacey. It was terrific.
I was in a field that I didn't like, where I was miserable. I was pretty much a
failure.
I decided I’d better get better. How I got better was to really make it a major
study for myself.
I found out that when I applied the principles that these old guys were talking
about, I got better in selling. I found out that it was a lot more fun selling
something when you’re good at it than trying to sell something when you’re
not.
Six or seven years after I got out of college, I was getting pretty good in
sales. They promoted me into marketing. I still didn’t know the word
marketing. It started to intimidate me a little.
I went to the bookstore and bought a book on marketing. I think it was
Memorial Day weekend. This book was about a 500-page textbook. I
thought, “I’d better read this and at least be able to pretend that I know
something about marketing.” After about 20 minutes, I was taking a power
nap on the couch.
Later on, I realized that marketing really didn’t need all the jargon and
theories. Marketing was really common sense, which ultimately turned out to
be uncommon sense.
Dan:
Jon, when you were the president of the New Jersey Nets, you
increased their revenue by 500% in three years. Tell us the whole story. I
think there’s a huge lesson for all of our subscribers here. How did you do it?
Jon:
Let me backtrack just a few seconds. I’d been running the business
operations of the Portland Trailblazers for 11 years. We were the most
successful team in all of sports. We sold out our arena for 11 straight years.
We did more innovative things than all the other teams combined.
There was one thing that sort of struck me. People would say, “You've had
success in Portland because it’s the only team in town.”
There were enough examples of “only” teams in other markets that weren't
nearly as successful as we were. In those days, the Utah Jazz, the San
Antonio Spurs, and the Phoenix Suns were the only team in their towns. They
weren't as successful.
When I left the Blazers, I taught college for a year. It still stuck in my mind.
Would the stuff that we did in Portland, where everything was positive, work
in a market where it wasn't positive? In fact, where it would be negative?
That was rolling around in the back of my mind while I was teaching.
I was teaching sports marketing, and I always used to make fun of the New
Jersey Nets. They were the laughingstock of the NBA at the time. Their track
record was awful. The players they picked up were convicts and criminals.
They were dead last in attendance for seven straight years. Their record was
the worst for seven straight years. The only thing they led the league in was
drug rehab cases.
I’d make fun of them in class. This one class I taught was at 1:30, right after
lunch. You’d get these college kids coming in right after having some pizza
and soda, or maybe pizza and beer. I had to make it a little bit lively.
Midway through the semester, on a Sunday night between Christmas and
New Year’s, I get a phone call at 10:00. I pick up the phone and the caller
says, “My name is Alan Cohen. I’m the chairman of the board of the New
Jersey Nets.”
Sometimes you can think of a ton of things in a microsecond. In that
microsecond I thought, “Jeez! These college kids have gotten some adult to
call me up and play a practical joke on me.” In that microsecond I was
thinking, “It’s 10:00 in Portland, Oregon. That means it’s 1:00 a.m. in New
Jersey.” Little did I know at that time that the New Jersey Nets could keep
you up seven nights a week.
I was going to say, “Well, what are you looking for? A new drug connection
for your team?” Just as I started to say it I chickened out and just said yes. He
said, “We’d like you to consult with us. Could you come to New York and
meet with us next week?” I didn't want to go to New York. I didn't want to
travel there.
The reputation of the New Jersey Nets at the time was that they were really
cheap bastards. I figured the best way out of that would be to give him an
outrageous fee. He said, “What would your fee be?” I told him this
outrageous number. I’m glad he didn't see me face-to-face, because he would
have seen me laughing! He said, “Okay.” The next week, off I went to New
Jersey.
There were seven owners at the time. I met with three of them. We had
dinner in a downtown Manhattan restaurant. They said, “Jon, we would like
for you to show our team, as a consultant, how to get the revenue dollars
from sponsorships like you got in Portland.” In Portland, we were the number
one team in the NBA at that time in revenue from sponsorships.
I’d gone to a New Jersey Nets game the night before, when I got into town.
There were only about 2,000 people in the stands. Every one of those 2,000
people looked like a suspect. They didn’t look like sports fans. Their
attendance had been the worst in the league for seven years.
Over dinner, when they said they’d like me to help them on sponsorships, I
said, “I don’t mean to be rude, but who in the world would buy a sponsorship
from the New Jersey Nets? The people in your crowd? There was no one
there, so you can’t even call it a crowd. Who would buy a sponsorship with
the Nets? You have to start by selling tickets first. If people start coming to
the games, then there’s a reason that companies would buy a sponsorship in
the team.”
One of the owners said, “Well, who would buy tickets to see the Nets?”
That’s what really started me there. I thought it was a terrific challenge.
Would the stuff that I did in Portland, Oregon, work in the worst-case
scenario, which at that time was the New Jersey Nets?
In Portland, they only had one team in town. In the New York/New Jersey
area, they had nine pro teams. They had two NBA teams, three NHL teams,
two MBA teams, and two NFL teams. They had major colleges. It was a
highly competitive market.
I thought that this was the one I wanted to try. I went there first as a
consultant, and then became the president. We did things that were highly
controversial and highly unorthodox at the time. It’s funny how things are
starting to catch up. Some of the marketing things that we did then have
become regular marketing strategies today in the world of sports.
Dan:
What are some of the things you've done, Jon? What strategies did
you use?
Jon:
One was that the Nets had not had a sell-out for seven years.
Michael Jordan was playing at the time for the Chicago Bulls. He was the
greatest attraction in the history of the NBA. In fact, the year before I got to
the Nets, 1990 or so, Michael Jordan had played in 102 NBA games, which
included the playoffs. Of the 102 games he played, 100 of them sold out.
The Chicago Bulls played in New Jersey twice a year. You can guess which
two games Michael Jordan didn't sell out! Both were the New Jersey Nets.
They didn't come close. The arena in New Jersey sat 20,000. One game
Michael Jordan sold 11,000 seats, and other game 13,000.
I really believe that, in the world of sports, the sell-outs are the magic potion.
It’s much more fun to go to a sporting event that’s sold out, with everybody
cheering. The energy is high. The electricity’s high.
That first year as a consultant, we developed a strategy of how to sell out. We
figured we could sell out maybe five games. Mind you, they’d not sold out
any games in the previous seven years.
We picked the five best games on the schedule. These were the two Michael
Jordan games, the two New York Knick games, and I think a Boston Celtic
game with Larry Bird. We packaged them together.
We gave away a free gift for every game – a basketball, a cap, or something
of that nature. We added an extra attraction for each game, the San Diego
Chicken or the group called the Bud Light Daredevils. A person could buy
those five great games for $20 each,$100 total.
I showed the plan to the owners. One of the owners objected vociferously. He
said, “This is too good a deal. This is way too good a deal for our fans.” I
said, “You sort of specialized in deals that weren’t good for your fans,
because nobody bought them.”
In fact, the year before, one of the owners had shown me this milk carton.
They had an ad on the side of the milk carton that said, “Milk the Nets for
$4.” You could go to the big games like one with Michael Jordan for $4. A
$20 ticket for $4! The owner told me the milk company president had told
him that the previous year, they found more kids that were featured on the
milk carton than they sold New Jersey Nets tickets.
I said, “This is a deal. If the fans see these five great games and five extra
attractions, they might think we made a mistake. They’re going to buy right
away before we figure it out.” The owner said, “What happens if this doesn't
work?” I said, “Sell the team. If this doesn't work, nothing will.”
We sold 25,000 of those five-game plans. That was more than the stadium
would seat, so we had to roll over and offer different games. We got the five
sell-outs. The next year, I think we went to 11 sell-outs. In the four-year
period, we eventually went to 31 sell-outs out of 41 games. The team was
still awful but because fans were going to the games and getting excited, we
were able to ramp up the sponsorship revenue dramatically.
Dan:
Basically, Jon, the product is not that good. What you did was
repackage it and come up with a different strategy. You sold it pretty much
like a bonus, didn’t you?
Jon:
I think the key thinking was that we had to find an attribute that
would appeal to the fans. One attribute. I think that’s true with every product.
In this case, the New Jersey Nets were a bad product. They were dead last on
their record. They were dead last in attendance. They were dead last with the
quality of players. They were dead last with the ethics of the players. We had
to look for one attribute.
The one attribute happened to be, in this case, that they played somebody.
The attribute wasn’t the Nets themselves. It was the opponent. Our
advertising featured the opponents. It featured Michael Jordan, and Patrick
Ewing of the Knicks, and Larry Bird and Magic Johnson. We were selling the
opponents. Coincidentally, the opponents had to play somebody, and the
somebody happened to be the New Jersey Nets.
It was critical that we find an attribute. That attribute was controversial at the
time because we weren’t featuring our own players. We were featuring the
opponent’s players.
Dan:
Which is something they’d never done before?
Jon:
Right. Also, most sports teams then, and many of them now,
wanted to sell the product that they wanted to sell, not that the consumer
wanted to buy. My feeling is, in almost any business you can increase the
frequency.
In the case of the Nets, we wanted to increase the frequency of attendance by
a little bit. If you get enough people increasing the frequency of attendance a
little, it will go up in geometric progression.
The average NBA fan in those days would want to go to about two or three
games a year. With our five-game package with the free gifts and five great
games, it wasn’t too difficult to increase their frequency from two or three
games a year to five games a year.
We got a ton of people to increase their frequency from three games to five.
The following year we bumped the five games to seven, increasing their
frequency a little bit more.
Most pro teams wanted people to buy a full season ticket. In the NBA, that
meant 41 games. In New Jersey’s case, nobody was buying season tickets
because they didn’t want those games. We looked at the marketplace and
what the market would give us. We had to find an attribute. We had to
package it properly, in increments that were acceptable to the people who
were going to buy them.
Dan:
listeners?
Jon, are there any other lessons you want to share with our
Jon:
In the pro sports world, teams think the fans are going to come to
them. We had a sales force, and we went out to the fans. Most teams will
have two or three young people as telemarketers. We built that sales force to
20 people that were calling on businesses.
Dan:
You took a more proactive approach.
Jon:
Right. We trained them. We put them through a boot camp that
lasted a week. If I’d been a young person then, I would have quit. The boot
camp was really difficult. I designed it and I was giving it, so I didn’t have to
quit. The training was followed up every week for the next three months.
Dan:
Just like practice, practice, practice, and more practice. Jon, in your
book there’s a concept you talk about. You said, “I’ve never seen a company
in trouble from having too much revenue.” Can you expand on that concept?
Jon:
revenue?
Dan:
Have you ever seen a company that’s in trouble from too much
Never.
Jon:
Take a look at the airlines. If they had more revenue, would they
have gone to the government for a loan? Take a look at any company. If they
had more revenue, they would be okay.
The ironic thing is that I think revenue is the most important thing a company
should succeed in, but a lot of times CEOs will delegate the revenue and do
more managing of the business. I really feel the companies like United
Airlines, American Airlines, the airline industry, if they had focused more on
how to get revenue and increase sales, they wouldn’t be in trouble on these
other issues.
Take a look at telecommunications and a lot of different companies. It’s
always a shortfall in revenue. Yet the CEO isn’t focused on the revenue as
much as managing the business, or in the big companies on merging with
somebody else.
With a lot of these mergers, what they’re trying to do is buy the revenue.
They buy the revenue through stock.
They can disguise many things when they buy another company and
incorporate that revenue into their own. I really believe in revenue. Not
revenue at any cost, where you have to spend more money than what you’re
getting to get the revenue. I don’t believe in getting revenue that’s bathed in
red ink.
Dan:
Since you’re talking about this, what do you think are the most
common mistakes that companies make?
Jon:
The first one would definitely be revenue.
Dan:
They focus on the wrong thing?
Jon:
I think this is true particularly of small or mid-sized companies. In
much of my experience, I’ve seen them delegate the revenue. My feeling is
that the revenue is the most important thing. A CEO or an owner of a
business shouldn’t delegate that. That owner should be on top of the revenue
365 days a year. That is the most important thing. It’s a lot easier to hire
people that can cut costs.
Dan:
The bean counters.
Jon:
Right. It’s much easier to do that. Revenue is really the thing that
drives the business and makes it profitable.
A second mistake I think most companies make is they follow the follower.
They don’t differentiate enough. They look at what’s in their industry, and
they pretty much go along the same lines as their competition. There are
nuances in each product that might make it a little bit different.
To truly market, you really have to work at differentiating your company
from your com- petition. I think this is delegated, if anything, to an ad agency
or marketing director. I don’t think the CEO should delegate how you’re
going to differentiate.
Take a look at the airlines. I’m probably using the airlines as an example
because I fly so much. The big airlines, United, American, and Delta, all
follow each other. They’ve all followed each other into bankruptcy.
They’re trying to re-emerge as Southwest Airlines, a discount airline, but
they won’t be Southwest. Southwest was born and built as a discount airline.
The other ones are full service but they’re trying to be like them, cutting back
on service and a lot of things.
They’ve done a very poor job of differentiating.
Take a look at the car companies. There are some amazing success stories in
cars recently. Hyundai’s a Korean manufacturer that came over to the United
States. They had a bad reputation here because the cars weren’t manufactured
well. They broke down.
They were cheap.
Hyundai made a decision four years ago whether they would stay in the
United States or not. They made the decision to stay. They also made the
decision that they’d fix their cars up and make them a lot better. They did
that, but nobody would believe them. Their reputation and identity was that
they turned out crummy products. It would always be broken down.
This is how they really differentiated themselves. They improved their
product dramatically. They didn’t charge any more for those improvements.
Now, they still have the low-priced car but more amenities for the price.
Then they came up with the 100,000-mile, ten-year warranty. They basically
said, “We’re going to put our money where our mouth is. If you buy one of
our cars, you don’t have to pay for any repairs for ten years.” Their market
share went skyward. They’re highly profitable.
I saw in the Powers Report that they were the number one car in quality.
Over a four- year period, they went from being identity-wise the worst to
number one. Nissan is another case. Nissan was on the point of bankruptcy
four years ago. Now, they’re the second most profitable car company in the
world.
Then I look at General Motors. General Motors has spent more money in
advertising per year over the last 30 years than the next four companies
combined. Yet their market share has gone from 65% to 28%. If Nissan could
and Hyundai could remake themselves in four years, why doesn’t General
Motors remake themselves?
If you look at American car manufacturers, my feeling is that they haven’t
worked hard enough to differentiate themselves. I think they’re in follow the
follower mode.
Dan:
So, you have to be different. You have to be a little bit outrageous.
Jon:
Take Hyundai. Can you imagine Hyundai four years ago when they
said, “We’ve got to prove it to our potential buyers. We’ve got to come up a
100,000-mile, ten-year warranty.” There must have been a few screams in
that boardroom!
Another company that has just done a marvelous job of distinguishing
themselves is Aflac, with the duck. Aflac has probably the worst corporate
name in the history of corporate names. I don’t know what it stands for. It
probably stands for American Federation whatever.
Can you imagine what went on in that boardroom when they introduced that
duck, probably about four to five years ago? Here’s this very staid southern
company, and their ad agency said, “We want a duck to represent you.”
Aflac was insurance that you don’t really need. It’s supplemental insurance.
If you already have insurance, it supplements that. They came out with that
outrageous program with the duck. Now, amazingly, people know the name
and that it’s extra insurance. They’d been around for a long time, decades and
decades. Nobody had ever heard of them.
Their sales have tripled since they came up with the duck. They took the staid
southern company and really worked at differentiating themselves. They
really rang the bell. Most companies wouldn’t have the guts to use the duck.
Dan:
Jon, to people who say something like, “Oh, no. My business is
different. My industry is very conservative. I can’t do all this crazy stuff.”
What would you say to them?
Jon:
First of all, when I used to be a consultant I’d go around the
country. Every company would say, “My market’s different. My business is
different.” That was automatic. I felt like printing it on a business card and
handing it to people, saying, “Here’s your script.”
These markets are different, and these markets do have differentiations.
Portland, Oregon, is different that Shreveport, Louisiana. Companies are
different. They do have little bits of differentiation. It’s all part of the same
hand, in that the hand has fingerprints and thumbprints. The thumbprint
might be different, but it’s still a hand.
Good marketing works in any industry. The greatest example is Aflac. Here’s
a highly conservative industry. The only industry that might be more
conservative would be mortuaries.
That might be the only thing that’s more conservative than the insurance
industry that Aflac was in. They came out with this outrageous thing and did
terrific.
I’m not saying that everyone has to use a duck, but there are ways of
differentiating yourself. With companies, it’s relatively easy to do. I’ve read a
lot of books on branding. It’s interesting about branding that a lot of it has to
do with how you sell yourself to the outside world. It has to do with logos
and different things of that nature.
I think logos are highly overrated. Take a look at the Nike logo. Everybody
knows the Nike logo. They’ve spent $2 billion in advertising, with very edgy
advertising that talks about lifestyle and doesn’t really show the shoe that
much. We know the Nike logo. When you start thinking of other logos, it’s a
little bit hazier. Do you know what the Hyundai logo looks like?
Dan:
I don’t even remember the color? Red?
Jon:
I can’t remember their logo, but that’s a consumer product.
What I look at in branding, what we do with all of my teams, is that branding
starts and ends with your current customers. Generally, branding is thought to
be for how you’re perceived by the outside world. I look at branding starting
and ending with your current customers. Any company can do this.
Existed before that controversy. Or Tyco. I’d never heard of Tyco.Then we
find out about all the improprieties that Tyco’s executive committed. If you
do something rotten, you can get negative word of mouth.
What’s more difficult is to get the positive word of mouth. I look at that as
branding and looking at your own customers. What’s it going to take to brand
them and make them really feel they’re trading with the right company?
Dan:
Jon, give me some specifics.
How should our listeners start marketing their products and services
outrageously? What should their first step be? What should their second step
be?
Jon:
I guess the best way is with examples.
In my book Marketing Outrageously, I put in my email address. I’ve gotten
over 4,000 emails in the last couple of years. I answer them all. It’s really
interesting.
I get a lot of emails from small and medium-sized businesses. I haven’t
gotten one from General Motors or Proctor and Gamble. I don’t know if
they’ve read the book. If they have, they haven’t sent me an email, or they
disguised it.
This one woman from a small town in Colorado sent me an email. She ran a
garbage collection business. Her name was Trashy Lady. When she sent me
the email, the subject line said, “From the Trashy Lady. This is not porno,
Jon. Please read it.” So I read it. She told me this story.
She painted her trash trucks purple. On the side door she put her name,
Trashy Lady. She comes up with a Trashy Newsletter that she sends out
quarterly to the people that she picks up trash from. The newsletter is little
tips on trash. It’s written in a light tone.
It’s not like you need a PhD. There’s a case where a person has taken an
industry and was able to differentiate it and market it just by having those
purple trucks and a catchy name, Trashy Lady.
Dan:
Jon, let’s talk about the power of asking the right question. Most
entrepreneurs ask the wrong questions. What are the right questions? Why is
it important to challenge our thinking and think outside the box?
Jon:
question?”
I’m not sure if I understand the question, “What’s the right
Dan:
When most entrepreneurs have problems in their business, they ask
the wrong questions.
They focus on the wrong thing instead of asking, “What’s it going to take to
increase my revenue? What’s it going to take to maximize my profits in the
shortest period of time?”
Jon:
I agree that the number one question anyone should ask is, “What’s
it gonna take?” I spell gonna G O N N A. What’s it going to take to raise
revenue? The immediate answer doesn’t usually come.
I go through an exercise with a staff where I ask them to come up with five
ideas day on how we can raise revenue. Don’t be the judge and jury when
you’re writing down these ideas. We’ll have a think tank.
I’ll ask the people about two weeks before we do this to write down five
ideas a day. You don’t have to think on the weekend so it’ll be ten days of
thinking, five ideas a day. Again, don’t be the judge and jury. I’m not going
to publish these ideas.
If a person wrote down five ideas a day for two weeks, they’d come up with
50 ideas. We get together. If there are five people in the room, that would be
a bank of 250 ideas. We just start talking about how to raise revenues. Some
of these ideas are really bad.
That’s good. The really bad ideas are the good ones.
There was a guy at the Portland Trailblazers. I never knew a person who
could consistently, time after time after time, come up with awful ideas. This
guy developed awful ideas into an art form, but he was serious.
He thought they were good ideas. They were great ideas because when we
discussed them, I would flip it. I would start talking about doing exactly the
opposite. By flipping it, it turned out to be a pretty good idea.
In revenue thinking, the question “What’s it going to take?” is the best
question anyone can ask in business. The other question which I think is
really important is, “What did I do today to make money for my company?”
Dan:
I like that. Say it again.
Jon:
What did I do today to make money for my company?
This really occurred to me when I was at the New Jersey Nets. I’d spent a 12hour day and was driving home. I was really tired. For some reason, that
question popped into my head.
Tell the sales staff, when the president of their company went out on a sales
call every day? It took about an hour and a half out of my life every day.
What did that do for me, to get a feel in the marketplace when I was out there
talking to a customer every day?
I was talking to a prospect every day, finding out why they didn’t want to do
business with the New Jersey Nets. It underscored this. The president was
focused on sales and revenue. It also gave me a great feel for the marketplace.
Here’s nothing like just going out in the marketplace to see what’s going on.
I look at research. A lot of companies base their decisions on research. I just
don’t believe that you can do research that will help predict the future.
I do believe in research as far as asking people how they liked their
experience using a certain product. They’ve experienced it. If they’ve used a
product, whether it be a basket- ball game or a power saw or insurance,
whatever the case may be, they can tell you about that experience.
Then you say, “How would you like this type of product?” People can’t
imagine it. They haven’t experienced it. You can get a much better feel if the
CEO goes out into the marketplace every day.
When I was at the Nets, I made a sales call every day. Now that I’m with
Mandalay Baseball and we have five minor league baseball teams, I travel
around with those teams. One of the things that I consistently do is go on a
sales call, whether it be in Frisco, Texas, or Dayton, Ohio, or Las Vegas, or
wherever we have these teams.
I go out on a sales call a day. That’s my own little piece of research of what’s
going on in the marketplace. Also, it underscores to the salespeople that the
president of the company, which has five teams, is interested in and focused
on revenue.
Dan:
You walk your talk. Jon, you also recommend in your book for
companies to spend some crazy money to get new business. Correct?
Jon:
Right. This really started with the Portland Trailblazers. I carried it
with me to the New Jersey Nets.
I’d never seen the different ethnics as much as in the New Jersey/New York
area. It’s just an amazing thing, all the different ethnics that live together.
There’s a slew of immigrants.
I used to walk through this one mall in New Jersey. If I listened closely
enough while walking from one end of the mall to another, I could hear
eleven or twelve dramatically different languages. I didn’t understand what
the people were saying, but I could differentiate one of the languages from
another. You have this great ethnic area there.
There were a lot of Japanese in the New York area. There are a lot of
Japanese-American companies that are based on the two coasts, either in
LA/San Francisco or the New York area.
We hired a Japanese national to call on these Japanese people. They could
speak the same language, they knew the nuances. We also hired an Indian to
call on a lot of the Indian doctors. We hired a Korean. The sales staff was our
own version of the United Nations.
Yoshi, our Japanese salesperson, told me about all these Japanese people
who’d come over here and worked for the Japanese-American companies.
Generally, they come over for a period of four to five years. They like to try
to live the American lifestyle as much as they can.
We decided to run an ad in the Yomiuri Daily. The Yomiuri Daily is the
world’s largest newspaper in Japan. I think their circulation is 10 million
copies a day. In the United States, they have an American version of the
Yomiuri Daily. It’s written in Japanese. Their circulation is probably about
half a million. To put that in perspective, I think USA Today is one million.
Unlike USA Today, which has regional editions, the Yomiuri Daily does not
have regional editions. The copy is the same in New York as San Francisco. I
wrote an ad, and Yoshi translated it.
We placed a small ad in the newspaper. This is crazy money. You’ve got to
figure that of that half million circulation, not all of those are living in New
Jersey. The ones that were living in the New York area might be out in
Queens or Long Island. If they’re living in Long Island, that’s too far to drive
to go to a New Jersey Nets game.
Dan:
Plus, they might not be interested in going to games.
Jon:
Right. We ran this little ad, and we featured a picture of Michael
Jordan. We featured a face shot of Yoshi Okamoto. It said, “Want to see
Michael call Yoshi?” We sold the five- game plan from $100 on up to several
hundred dollars, depending on the seat location.
We ran that ad in the Yomiuri Daily. What we always looked at when we’d
run a newspaper ad, for every dollar we spent, we’d like to get $4 back in
ticket sales. This is pretty much crazy money because this was really an
ethnic market. While it was big, it wasn’t that big.
We consistently got a 20:1 ratio. For every dollar that we put in the Yomiuri
Daily, we were getting $20 back. We were getting calls from Japanese in San
Francisco that com- muted to come to our games. They bought the five-game
package. They could have gone to see the Golden State Warriors and Michael
Jordan, but they commuted and bought the package. We had customers in
LA, San Francisco, and New York.
If we’d had to justify buying that space in the Yomiuri Daily, we really just
spent some crazy money. We took about $3,000 or $4,000 and decided to see
what would happen.
Dan:
Good example. Jon, I want to touch a little on management. What is
your management philosophy?
Jon:
I’ll refer to a story from when I was at the Trailblazers. There was a
magazine that was doing a story on me. They said, “All the people here just
seem so motivated.” They’d interviewed different people. They said, “What’s
your secret?” I said, “I do two things.”
The reporter had his pad of paper out and his pencil, taking notes. “The first
thing is I try to hire only self-motivated people. The second thing is, I try not
to screw them up.”
He said, “How can you screw them up if they’re self-motivated?” I said,
“Companies put barriers in front of their employees, barrier after barrier after
barrier. There are always stupid regulations or rules, things like that. I don’t
do that. I also take care of the performers. I don’t treat all people equally.”
Every company can’t have all self-motivated people. It doesn’t work that
way. You’ve got to have some employees who are pure nine-to-five. They
want to have a job and just go home. I don’t do anything to hurt those people.
I don’t make fun of them.
I know there’s a certain amount of those people that companies have. For the
budding superstars, I really keep my eye on them. I make sure that there are
no barriers put in front of them.
Dan:
The harder they work, you pay them more money?
Jon:
Probably more important than that, Dan, is I give them the
attention. In New Jersey, Friday afternoons about 3:00, I would have
meetings with four or five of our 20 young salespeople. We just talked about
marketing and business for about an hour. There really wasn’t much of an
agenda.
I’ve run into those guys since, and they say that was the most important part
of their week. The president of the company would actually sit down and
spend an hour talking to them. It really wasn’t the money. They weren’t paid
that much more.
They made more because they were salespeople and were more effective than
the other guys. It was really the attention. I think a lot of times, attention is
more important than the money.
Dan:
Jon, do you believe in a revenue share program in a company?
Jon:
I’ve never really done that. I’m a big believer that you always have
to be trying new things.
When I was in New Jersey, I would go over to Japan to sell sponsorships to
the Japanese-American companies. I got to know the president of Sony. We’d
go out to dinner or lunch. We still do about once a year.
This is probably eight or nine years ago. We’re having a meal and I said to
him, “Your engineers must be under an inordinate amount of pressure to
come up with new things.” Sony’s always coming up with new things. He
said, “Jon, new is a way of life with us at Sony. If we don’t create new, we
die in the marketplace, so new is a way of life with us at Sony.”
On the 14-hour flight back, I was thinking about that. New is a way of life. I
was thinking more in marketing terms than coming up with electronics and
products. With our teams, we’re always doing something new.
Take a look at revenue sharing with employees. What I looked at was getting
people involved with new things. We’d have this little ad hoc committee
where we’d have an experiment going.
One experiment might involve three or four people. They would try to bring
this project to life. They were working on it as if it were a hobby. It didn’t
replace what they were doing during the day.
Let’s say it didn’t come to life, or it failed. They usually got a bonus for it
failing. If it did succeed, they would get a bigger bonus. I found that people
really liked to get on these ad hoc committees to try to bring “new as a way
of life,” but it really has to be encouraged by management.
I carry this card around in my pocket. On one side it says, “New as a way of
life.” On the other side it says, “What did I do today to make money for my
company?” On that same side it says, “What’s it gonna take?”
I don’t necessarily look at revenue sharing. I look more at giving people the
opportunity to create new things. I do think that just makes them a little bit
more energized.
Dan:
Jon, besides the marketing books, you also wrote a self-help book,
Success is Just One Wish Away. Is success really just one wish away, or is it
just a good book title?
Jon:
I don’t think it’s a good book title. It would have sold more books!
That’s my favorite book of the three that I’ve written. It didn’t sell as much in
the marketplace, like Marketing Outrageously sold. It’s interesting that when
business people buy it, they then order 30 of them. Or they’ll order 80 of
them that they’ll give to their employees.
It’s a program that I initiated when I was with the Trailblazers. How do you
get people to be motivated? I did say I hired self-motivated people. How do
you keep that going? It really isn’t that difficult.
Originally it was a chapter in my first book, Ice to the Eskimos. Just before
the final version was sent to the publisher I pulled that chapter out because I
felt that one chapter didn’t do it justice. I felt that was the most important
thing in the whole book. It was just one chapter, and someone could read past
it. It wouldn’t have an impact.
I didn’t know how I was going to handle it. Then I decided to write it as a
business parable. I had fun writing it, and it’s still my favorite book. It sells
more in large amounts of copies, where someone buys it for 20 or 30
employees, than it does individually.
Dan:
us?
What’s one of the concepts in the book? Can you share quickly with
Jon:
That, you have to read. If I gave you a concept, I’d give away the
punch line. The story starts with this guy walking on Oregon Beach.
Remember, this is a business parable. He walks along the beach and finds an
old paint can that has Japanese inscriptions on it.
It’s a spray paint can that came from Japan. He shakes it up to see what color
paint it is. He sprays it, and out comes a big Japanese genie. The Japanese
genie is going to give him two wishes.
The guy says, “Wait. I thought it was always three wishes.” The genie gets a
little bit angry and takes one wish away. He has one wish the genie will grant.
It’s absolutely positive that if the person makes that one wish, they will
become successful.
Dan:
How can listeners get in touch with you and get your books?
Jon:
Any of my books, they can purchase on Amazon. If someone wants
to send me an email, if they don’t want to look on the flyleaf of Marketing
Outrageously, my email address is FindJon@msn.com.
Dan:
And you have a website too, don’t you, Jon?
Jon:
Right. FindSuccess.net.
Dan:
Jon, do you offer any services that you want to talk about? Do you
offer consulting services? Do you speak?
Jon:
I just do speaking engagements. Some of them are to big trade
groups or big conventions. Other ones, a company has me come in.
I don’t consult, but I speak to either a group of employees or managers, or to
all the employees. A big casino had me come into Atlantic City. I spoke to
three different groups there about marketing and differentiating their product.
I also spoke to their executive committee.
Dan:
Any last words of advice for our subscribers?
Jon:
I think they’ve got to look at business as fun. Business is a
challenge. If they really focus on revenue and really focus on differentiating,
business is really fun. It pays off, but it can’t get any more fun than this.
Dan:
Go our there and market outrageously.
Jon:
That’s right.
Dan:
Thank you, Jon.
Jon:
Thank you, Dan.
Randy Gage - The Millionaire Messiah
Many consider Randy to be the world’s foremost copywriter. A former high
school dropout who became a self-made millionaire, Randy has taught
marketing strategies to people around the world through seminars, training
and consulting.
For more than 20 years, Randy Gage has been helping people build
successful businesses through effective marketing strategies — while
operating his own multi-million dollar company.
His in-the-trenches experiences in direct marketing, as an entrepreneur, and
in life help you see how you can transform all of your marketing efforts and
make them profitable!
Dan:
Now, Randy, we have a lot to cover in this interview, so why don’t
we let you start off by telling our listeners your background, your life story
and how it got started?
Randy: Well, I don’t know that they’re all interested in my life story, but
let’s talk about maybe the relevant parts to our subject today of copywriting.
Really, I just started writing copy very small chunks at a time because I was
doing display ads. I was in the restaurant business, trying to increase my sales
and my meals.
So I think… I wasn’t writing sales letters, there were no websites in those
days, of course, it wasn’t long copy. But headlines were really import ant. So
I had to create really powerful headlines that would get people to notice me,
and that might just be a straight benefit headline: All You Can Eat Crab Legs!
Which is one of the most successful ads I ran for a restaurant I had in
Raleigh, North Carolina, where I started Tuesday night crab leg special. It
brought the place from doing a few hundred dollars a night to thousands of
dollars a night in sales.
I was just experimenting with some ads along the way like that. And along
the way I dis- covered John Caples and Halderman, and some of the
advertising classics.
I studied those, I looked at how they started the Book of the Month Club; and
I looked at when Columbia House sent me the offer to get ten records for one
penny. I started to study all that stuff, all the letters I got and the ads that
prompted me.
I really became a student of marketing, and specifically, direct response
marketing.
Not the image stuff but the stuff that really causes prospects to act: pick up
the phone and give their credit card, or make out a check and send it in.
So along the way I started writing copy, and pretty soon I was writing sales
letters. The first ones were horrendous, but you test and track, test and track
and find things that work.
I became more and more adept at understanding what motivates people to
take action. As that happened my copy really started to do better, and I think
the next evolution in my career in marketing came when I went through a lot
of personal challenges and ended up going to therapy. There were some
negative relationships I’d been in; I finally agreed to go to therapy, couples’
therapy.
And then that turned into individual therapy for me. I went to about three
years of that. What I got from that personally had a very big payoff in my
business life, because, and it’s not that I’m trying to diminish what happened
in my personal life – it was totally life- changing – but I learned how to feel
and express emotions.
I really was an emotional cripple before I went into that therapy. After a few
years of that I was really able to express emotion, and I found that transferred
into my copywriting.
I was able to integrate emotion into the copy instead of just logic, what I had
done up to that point. So if you gave me a project to sell your widget,
whatever the product was, I could come up with all the logical, rational
reasons you should be buying that widget.
But what really took me to the world-class level, I think, is when I really
started to understand “What is the emotion that goes on when people buy?
What is the thing that’s keeping them up at night that makes them want to
buy that, and what’s the emotion in that?”
And when I started to transfer that into my copy, then I think it really started
working exponentially more effectively. That would be the process or the
path that I took to where I’m at today, I think.
Dan:
Now, Randy, what are some of the marketing lessons you’ve
learned over the years that have the most impact in your life?
Randy: Okay, one of the most important marketing lessons would be, I
think, I just alluded to: It isn’t just about the features and the logic.
Yes, I was successful when I was selling logic-based copy platforms, but it
was exponentially greater when I went to emotion. I understood then that
people buy on emotion and they justify with logic, so you need the logic
stuff.
You’ve got to validate the stuff you say, but you’ve really got to lead with the
emotion of the situation, if possible. You have to get the reader down to the
end of the letter, or watching the end of the commercial, or the end of the
website presentation, or the DVD, or the video or whatever medium you’re
using.
I think another very important lesson that I learned is the difference between
need and want. Many people, and you hear the expression a lot: “If you want
to become wealthy, find a need and fill it.”
Of course, I think the graveyard is littered with the bones of people who have
tried to fill a need and failed miserably, even though they had a product or
service that addressed a viable need in the market.
The big lie in that equation is that people don’t always do what they need;
they don’t buy what they need, they buy what they want. If everybody bought
what they needed we’d all be driving Volvos or Saabs with roll-bar
protection and airbags, and zigzag harnesses and Consumer Report’s five star
rating.
We’d all be driving the same thing and there’d be no Ferrari Testerosas and
Lamborghini Diablos, and Dodge Roadsters… you know, all of these other
kinds of cars.
We’d all be eating fresh fruits and vegetables and that’s it, and there’d be no
such thing as ice cream or pizza, or Taco Bell or Burger King, or
McDonald’s or all of this other stuff. So we know we don’t need Boston
Market and we don’t need McDonald’s, but we want McDonald’s so
McDonald’s is the largest restaurant chain in the world.
And they’re not doing it by serving people’s needs, we know that for
sure.They’re doing it by serving people wants, which is: “Hey, I’m in a hurry,
I’m driving along and I want to go through a drive through, get something
quick and easy – finger food that I can eat while I’m driving in my car.” And
they’re making billions and billions of dollars with it.
So I think it’s very easy to get sidetracked listening to college marketing
textbooks and marketing; you’re going to get this attitude as you go after it as
a living. I think that’s really bad advice.
You go after wants and fill it, and that’s a much better shot at being
successful. So I think those would be the things that come to mind as the
biggest, or as the most important marketing lessons that I’ve been through.
Dan:
Wonderful. Now, Randy, can you give us two examples of your
most profitable campaigns?
Randy: Well, one that’s hot right now is the Internet. I’ve got an e-zine that
went out on Saturday – today is a couple of days after that. We’ve done
already $14,000 in sales. You say, “Oh $14,000 isn’t such a big thing. We
have multi-million dollar campaigns…” Yeah, okay, but this is an e-zine
which costs absolutely nothing to make, and went out to a very small list of
about five thousand people.
It’s already made $14,000 as of 1 PM today. And we know that this
campaign is going to be paying off for a couple more weeks. I’m getting to
the point now where there isn’t an hour of any day that I don’t make a sale on
one of my websites somewhere.
We’ve gone from a few ten-dollar sales every few days to a few hundreddollar sales every couple of days, to hundreds of dollars every day to
thousands of dollars every day.
This has to be, in terms of profitable, the Internet has to be just the most
amazing profit there is. I’ve been for years mailing out all these glossy magalogs, and thick, long-copy mag-alogs; forty-four page letters and a lot of
long copy stuff.
But the Internet… I’ve done, I don’t know. I think the most profitable stuff is
the e-zine campaigns I’m doing now.
I’ve really focused on that during the last two months because I’ve just
watched my Internet sales go up consistently, to the point where now it’s
thousands of dollars a week.
I started saying, “You know, I really need to focus on this.” So I reengineered
my e-zines, I dropped one, added onto two other ones, put them on a regular
publication schedule.
They used to be very sporadic, just doing it when I had something special to
sell or doing an offer, or just doing it when I got around to it. And so they
might come out two in a month, and then none for two months, and then one
a week for two weeks and then none for a month.
So now I’m just going to a religious publication schedule. And affiliate
programs: I’ve had some affiliate stuff that I’ve done, selling a product where
I used to make $300 for each sale. And two Saturdays ago I sent out an e-zine
at 11 in the morning, and I made $7,000 by 5:00 that day.
Dan:
Wow.
Randy: Now I have some other stuff. I’ve got this amazing mag-alog I
created for this artist, a sculptor named James Russell, that is coming off the
press this week. It’s the kind of thing that cost probably $40,000 in design
and layout and printing. A 32-page, glossy, coffee- table book.
It’s a work of art because his work is so amazing… because he does these
stainless steel sculptures. He’s got them out around the world. There’re these
magnificent, majestic sculptures that are thirty, forty, fifty feet high, and he
also has some that go in people’s homes.
He’s got about a dozen of those that are smaller-scale, one foot, two feet
high. So here’s an artist, who never had a sales letter or a mag-alog or
anything like that. Because art is art; how do you sell art? But this guy is so
brilliant.
He joined my Mastermind Council, which is my highest level of consulting.
He joined that and he came to the Mastermind Council retreat that we did in
Costa Rica last year.
As we were brainstorming his session that was the idea I came up with. Now,
it’s just coming out; it’s actually going to be done printing tomorrow. So I
don’t know; it could fail, I don’t think it will.
These sculptures sell for… the home ones are $10,000, $150,000.The
monumental ones are anything from $100,000 to a million dollars. But I think
it’s very likely that we could spend $40,000 printing this thing and we could
spend another $50,000 on running it, and bring twenty or thirty million
dollars in sales over time, over a couple of years.
Some of these monumental sculptures are a million dollars apiece, and of
course some of these home ones…
Everything’s relative. Some numbers are bigger, when you’re talking in the
millions; some are smaller, when you’re talking in the thousands. It’s really
about what you’re putting into the campaign.
Many people who are listening to this are probably saying, “I don’t have
$40,000 to print a mag-alog.” Okay, then you look at the other stuff. Because
I’m just as excited when I make $8,000 in e-zines and affiliate commissions
as I am when we make $400,000 from a mailing that is a sales letter that we
spent $40,000 on. Proportionately it’s the same thing.
Maybe we’ll do… my goal is to do $100,000 in sales this month through the
e-zine. Maybe we’ll hit it, maybe we’ll fall short ; maybe we’ll do
$80,000.Who knows? That’s my goal. I think I’ve got a good shot at hitting it
but we’ll see where it goes.
Truthfully, that sale is much more…. It’s just as sexy to me because the cost
is nothing, or almost nothing. Where the other campaigns may have bigger
upsides but they also have bigger costs and risks involved.
Dan:
Randy, how many subscribers do you have right now?
Randy: All we have is about 8,000 on one e-zine and about 12,000 on the
other.
Dan:
That’s it?
Randy: Yeah, yeah. And I have a third one of about 4,000, which will be
merged and purged with one of the existing ones.
Understand: I missed the boat on this for years. It was about six months ago
that I woke up and said, “You know, I really have to start doing that e-zine
thing and get serious about that.”
And then I’ve just been busy doing a lot of stuff. It was about two weeks ago
I said, “That’s it. I’ve got to get out of the office, I’m going to leave my
laptop behind. I’m going to go down to Key West, sit by a pool, drink out of
a coconut and brainstorm Internet stuff.
That’s all I’m going to do. I’m not going to take any phone calls or any
emails. I’ve got all this stuff I bought from Cory Woodell and all this from
this guy and that guy, and books I’ve never read and CDs I’ve never listened
to… And I’m going to just analyze and look at all this information I have.
Look at my experience and the results I’ve had and come back with a list of
about ten action steps that I’m going to do.”
And that was the point of me condensing the e-zines and putting them on a
regular schedule, and not taking ads in them.
The decisions I made down there sitting by the pool in Key West… now one
e-zine went from four people a day to forty-eight people a day signing up, the
other one… And of course, there are two other ones I haven’t mentioned: I
have a six-week e-course that we’re offering, One Niche Market.
Those people are not in the e-zine list, but they’re like an e-zine list because
they get a series of six lessons, one a week for six weeks, and then they get a
series of autoresponders that go out after that. I think we’re up to about 7,000
in that list, and then I have a direct marketing thing.
I part nered with a guy in central Europe and we have a list of people over
there who come to the marketing areas and log into the website. I think we
have about 7000 people over there, which is one I haven’t really done
anything with. That’s my next action step, to put that on a schedule with my
partner there and move forward with that one.
Dan:
Now, Randy, people always talk about how “The money is in the
list, the money is in the list.” Do you agree with that?
Randy: Yeah, I do. I think I have lost millions and millions of dollars
because I didn’t build lists. I’ve spoken to audiences of five thousand people
at a time, eight thousand people at a time.
And I would tell them, “By the way, I offer a free e-zine. If you would like
to get it…” And they say, “Oh, yeah, great!” And then I say, “Now, write this
web address down…”
And five thousand people would hunch over their notebooks. And I’d write
www.randy- gage… and they’d all write it down. And I’d go back to the
hotel thinking, “Wow, we’re going to have a couple thousand people sign up
tonight.” And we’d check two days later and we’d have twelve people that
signed up.
Because, of course, they all meant to sign up when they wrote it down. But
that was in their notes from the seminar; they took eight pages of notes in a
notebook somewhere, they went home, they put it on the bookshelf and they
forgot about it.
They’re not running home saying, “Okay, I’ve got to sign up for this free
newsletter.”
So I switched, just recently, I came up with an e-zine sign-up form, which we
pass out at the seminar. We say, “If you would like to get a free subscription
to Randy’s e-zine, fill this out and hand it in at the back table.”
So now if I do a meeting, and let’s say there’s 800 people in the audience,
we’ll get 690 subscribers to the e-zine with nothing. If I had done this when I
had an audience of 5,000, 7,000, 8,000… If I’d have done this then I would
have quadrupled my e-zine.
I missed the boat. I didn’t understand the power of it. But understand, I’ve
been selling on the Internet for a long time. I’ve been selling $10,000
seminars on the Internet; I’ve been doing that for three years. $5,000
programs, $7,000 programs, $10,000 programs, the Internet-based coaching
program where the highest level is $15,000.
So I’ve had people singing up for those for three years now that I’ve been
doing that kind of marketing. So I’ve made a lot of money on the Internet, but
I lost millions more because I didn’t really get the big picture on e-zine and
build a net list until very recently.
We like to think there are people in areas that know it all. But let me tell you:
Nobody knows it all, especially in the Internet because it’s changing all the
time.
We have some serious issues with SPAM now, and there’s going to be some
serious issues with SPAM regulation. There’s already in the UK and some of
the other markets where I’m doing business, the privacy laws are Draconian.
That’s going to be a real big issue for marketers in 2004, 2005, up to 2008
probably. And then things will probably sort themselves out at some point. I
don’t think SPAM will ever end, just like I don’t think telemarketing will
ever end, and I don’t think broadcast ads will ever end, at least in the
foreseeable future.
But things are going to change. Things that used to work for you are going to
stop working. Things that didn’t work for you are going to start working. And
it all goes back to the mantra of direct marketers, which is “We test and track,
test and track.”
And with the Internet, things changed so rapidly. I feel… You know, I read
all the books by all the gurus, and I look at them and say…. I remember, it
was about three years ago, and I had all these people come up to me at a
Speaker’s Association meeting and say, “Gage, you’ve got to get on email!”
And I’d say, “I don’t want to be on email. I’ve got a telephone, I’ve got a
secretary; if you want to reach me, pick up the phone.”
I just didn’t want to deal with it. And probably a little over two years ago I
gave in and said, “All right, let me try the email thing,” because I had several
clients around the world and they were in different time zones.
I had clients in Australia and in Europe, and it just made sense that when I’m
sleeping, they’re awake and they might want to send me a message. I didn’t
have to do the phone- tag thing, and I didn’t have to stay up until 10 at night
to call them back. So, yeah, the email looked like a handy thing.
So I got on the email bandwagon and I started looking at websites and
creating my website, then selling products, and making money from the
website.
And I look back and all of these gurus who kept telling me “You need to get
on the Internet…” and this and this and this - None of them are making any
money on the Internet!
And here I am, the guy who was the high school dropout, who doesn’t know
how to write script, cannot design a web page, knows nothing about
technology (other than I know how to use an email program, I know how to
use Word and I know how to open a browser session to go look at email).
That’s the extent of my complete technical knowledge. I can’t program script,
I don’t know the difference between a JAVA applet and a cappuccino applet
and I don’t care.
I can hire people to do that stuff. Before you called me, I was out at my
dining room table with an 8.5 x 11 legal pad designing a website. I’ve got a
pen, a ruler, a notepad and I’m designing exactly what I want, which I will
give to my technical people and they will put it up.
I don’t know how they do it, I don’t know how the 1s and the 0s work and
how the code works, and I have no need to know that. I know what causes
people to buy.
And so I look at all the Internet gurus out there; I don’t think any of them are
making the money I’m making. And I hear, “OH, I’ve got 80,000 people on
my list… I’ve got 350,000 people on my list.” I hear all these numbers going
around, but I would say, “How much can you put in the bank at the end of the
day? That list stuff is great, but how many buy?”
And my lists are very small lists, but they’re very, fiercely loyal lists.
They’re totally clean. People read my messages. How many people have
these e-zine lists… Like, for instance, I’ve got a colleague of mine… You see
how untechnical I am?
I couldn’t even turn off my other phone line so we wouldn’t be
distracted….That’s our first lesson. It’s not about technology, it’s about how
to market, okay?
So I’ve got a colleague with a list of 80,000 people, he says. So he sends out
these e-zines to 80,000 people. So one of my clients says, “Hey, I’ve got a
deal to be in so-and-so’s e- zine. I can take an ad and he’ll take an article.” I
said, “Great, do it!”
So she wrote an article, got a little ad in there, didn’t get a single response. So
another colleague of both of ours was offered the same thing, to get into this
e-zine. So he wrote an article, had a link at the bottom, you know “Sign up
for his newsletter - just click here.” His thing went out; he didn’t get a single
response.
Now, what’s happening with this situation? Well, I bet this guy with this list
of allegedly 80,000 people, I think what happened, and what happens with
many e-zines… How many of them can you never unsubscribe to?
I have an e-zine that sends me four copies of it every time it goes out, yet all
four copies go to my deleted items file. I’ve never seen any of them.
I tried to unsubscribe; they don’t unsubscribe. I’ve sent a request and say I’m
unsubscribing; they enter me for another subscription.
There’s no way to unsubscribe from them, so of course I filtered my Outlook
box here that when I get a message from this address it goes to the deleted
items file.
Well, how many people on that list have done the same thing? So, they’re
selling ads and they’re talking about their sponsorship placement and they’ve
got x number of readers, but how many actually are read?
So like this guy claiming to have eighty thousand… well, how many of those
are real addresses?
The other issue is he used to do some SPAM. Last year or the year before,
now and then he’d send some SPAM on marketing.
I think AOL and MSN probably block him. Let’s say he sends fifteen
thousand emails to AOL subscribers. In his logbook it says that he sent them
and they were received, but you know and I know they didn’t receive those.
If he got blacklisted by that ISP those aren’t even going through. All I know
is if you sent out a message to eighty thousand people, I don’t care what you
offered, you’re going to get some responses.
Even if they call just to say, “Hey, go to hell; don’t ever write me again! I
thought your article was horrible,” you’re going to get responses.
So when two people tell me they’ve gotten into this e-zine with eighty
thousand people and they didn’t get a single sale of a product or a subscriber
to an e-zine,
I’d say something wasn’t right.
This guy says he has eighty thousand people but how many is it really going
to? 112? I’d rather have my list of 7,000 or 8,000 or 10000 who actually get
it and they actually read it, a targeted market with money to spend that buy
stuff.
Dan:
And Randy, how do you build a list like that, that’s responsive?
Randy: Well, the biggest thing to me is the content, i.e. e-zines are long,
they’re up to the date stuff, they have real substance in them.
So people get them, they read them and they build a relationship with them.
It gets to the point where they say,“ Hey, this Gage guy is really smart with
some things like this. He seems to know what he’s talking about; this seems
to be good stuff.”
So they look forward to getting it and they share it with their friends. Word of
mouth travels and they build very steadily just through that. And now I’m
doing these forms at seminars and other stuff that I’ve talked about. It’s
dramatically increased the rate that people are signing up. I bet a month from
now I’ll have another 10000 names on some of those lists.
Dan:
Amazing.
Randy: Even with the small lists I have I have a really good relationship
because we have a rap- port with each other.
Dan:
So how often do you make an offer to them? Is it 90% content, 10%
selling?
Randy: Here’s the deal: If I send out an e-zine and I don’t offer something,
I couldn’t go to sleep at night. Okay? This would be the ultimate crime
against nature, to me, if you sent out an e-zine and you don’t offer something
for sale.
This is unconscionable, and no marketer in his or her right mind should ever
think about that. But, on the other hand, even though I make an offer in
virtually every e-zine I’ve ever sent out, I still say that most of the time
there’s 70, 80 or even 90% content, and 10%… I’ve got an e-zine for
instance that I wrote called Secrets of Prosperity.
It’s a very long e-zine, probably five or six pages long… even longer,
probably seven or eight pages long, which breaks all the rules that everybody
says: Don’t send them to those people, they won’t open them, it won’t get
read. That was an example.
It was a long article about secrets of prosperity, things you have to do to be
prosperous, and on the fifth or sixth page of the e-zine it said, “…which is
why I created my Prosperity audio album!”
And then I go on to explain the eight-disk album to help you get out of debt,
to use the powers of attraction. I cover the seven spiritual laws that you can
follow to be prosperous.
And then “Here’s the link if you’re interested in getting it.” So I’ve probably
got a page worth of copy about the album, and seven or eight pages of just
good, free content. We sent it out. It hit the inboxes about 11: 25.
By 1 we had eighteen orders for it. It was about $99; not a big-ticket, a small
ticket. We had like eighteen orders within a couple of hours. Then there are
five more, then there are seven more.
It kept running that way for three or four days where we were getting heavy
response. And that was two years ago… not even, maybe it was a year and a
half ago. It was one of the first e-zines I ever did, and it’s still circulating the
world now!
Because people love it. They read it and they find five people in their address
book that they just feel have to know about that information.
So the viral part we had in that was amazing. It’s still going around a couple
years later.
So I have used that as a template since then on how to do e-zines. I do
advertiseral e-zines with editorial content and ads tied in, and make the
editorials about the products.
I don’t write an article about how to design marketing campaigns and then
sell a juicer; it doesn’t make sense. But if I put out a newsletter or a special
report, or I’ve got a tape coming out or an upcoming seminar that’s relevant
to the topic of the e-zine, that’s what I tie it together with.
I think the subscribers would appreciate that because most people just don’t
have the money, they don’t want to buy something.
They’ll feel like they got their money’s worth after reading it. Whereas many
other people are intrigued by the subject matter, they love the content and
they’d like to know where they can go to get deeper of that content. And of
course, there’s a product right there. They can click it and then buy it.
Dan:
Randy, you have another program called Net Profits: Seven Steps to
Making Money on the Internet, right?
Randy: Yes.
Dan:
Can you share those seven steps with us?
Randy: Probably not, because I doubt I’d remember what they’d be off the
top of my head. But I’ll take a shot and say some of the basic stuff that comes
to mind, which the first thing is how to build your site.
There are different types of sites. I’m happy you brought that up because I’m
so proud of that product. This is the only product I’ve ever seen on the
Internet that is from a layperson’s point of view.
As I told you guys before, I didn’t know how to write cold script or design
webpages, but I know how to create them and tell the technical geeks how to
build them and make money.
Understand something: Everyone listening to this has to realize it. If you’re
going to hire a web designer, a graphic artist, they don’t know how to market.
If they did, they wouldn’t be working for you. Why would they? If they knew
how to make money on the Internet, why would they be getting your lousy
$3,000 or whatever you’re giving them to design your web page?
If they knew how to sell on the Internet, they’d be getting millions of dollars
and they wouldn’t be selling their services.
So you have to understand: They don’t know about marketing. You’ve got to
know about marketing.
I’ve got some different types of sites that I do. I have portal sites, which are
specific industry area of interest, where everyone will go to congregate.
Then I have a sales letter site, which is just a simple, clean and dirty site for
one product. The whole site is a sales letter; there’s no navigation bar, there’s
no bells and whistles.
Just a powerful benefit headline, a good copy that pulls people through to the
end: Click
here to buy the product. I build sites for speakers and information
entrepreneurs, like myself.
Like, if you go to www.randygage.com, there’ll be a link to my coaching
program, there’s a link on how to get consulting services from me, you can
watch my demo video there, you can read my e-schedule of speeches and
what the speeches are that I do.
I’ve got my room set up there, my introduction there, my meeting planner, all
the stuff your secretary will need, so that site serves as a meeting planner for
the speaker’s group.
So that’s a lot of different kinds of sites. So the first step is normally, “Well,
what is the kind of site that I want to build? Is it for one company, one
product, one seminar? Is it an information site? How do I make money on
this site?”
The second step, another big, important step is going to be the copywriting.
You and I know that it all goes back to copywriting. Anything you’re going
to do in marketing, the most critical element is always going to be the
copywriting.
So I put a segment in there on how to write copy, some of the basic
fundamentals of selling copy, and then the basic things you do differently on
the Internet. Like, internal message is a big part of the copywriting I do.
You do a lot of underlining in print stuff. But, of course, if you underline a lot
of stuff on the Internet, most people are conditioned to believe that’s a link.
So I don’t underline copy online. I use only bold or italics, or sometimes a
different color.
So I go through some of the stuff that you do differently on the Internet. The
other thing I look at in Net Profits is how to make money on the site. It’s a
fundamental thing you want to consider before you build the site.
So you can tell these geek people how to build it you’ve got to know, “How
is it that I’m going to make money there? What is it that I want the prospect
to do when they come to the site? Do I want to capture information for ezines? Do I want to sell products?
Do I want to do both? Do I want to create a third-party site, which may be a
nonprofit organization, which will then refer people to my for-profit site?
I look at several options like that.
Then I look at a gist on using the course, and there’s a gist on how to set up
your store. Wherever it is that you’re selling your stuff, so that’s one of the
steps. How to set up a bookstore and how much copy to put up, how many
photos. I believe all sites need to be text-driven and graphics enhanced,
which is the opposite of what most clients want when they hire you.
They’re going to go for the graphics, the photos, the images, because they
want a pretty looking site. Well, I want a site that makes me money, and of
course sites that make you money are going to be text driven. So my copy is
going to be the focal, thriving element of the site, and then the photos or the
graphics need to enhance my type, or my copy.
Then we go through that process, talks about things that help you really
understand that.
Which is no different, by the way, than when I’m doing a print, when I’m
creating these magalogs. Which is what I tell graphic designers; I tell then,
“Understand you cannot cut one comma out of this copy.”
Sometimes, you know, I’ll get a call from a graphic designer: “Oh, I have a
great idea for that two-page spread we’re doing on selling the video series!”
“Great, what is it?” “Well, the only problem is we’re going to have to cut one
paragraph from your copy.” “Don’t waste my time, I have no interest in what
your concept is. You find another concept where you can use all the copy and
call me back then, because I am not going to cut a paragraph.”
Because when I give copy to the graphic designer or the website builder, I’ve
already edited the copy. If I thought I could get by with a paragraph less
copy, there would be a paragraph less copy there.
So whatever I give them is sacred, and you have to build that around the
copy. So that would be another one of the elements. So those are the kinds of
things you’re going to learn in the Net Profits; you’re going to learn what the
web designers don’t know, which is the stuff of how you can actually make
money on your website.
Dan:
Wonderful. Randy, let me ask you for something. What do you feel
are the secrets of becoming a master copywriter?
Randy:
Study, study, study. You go back and you look at the great
copywriters of the past, people like John Caples. Look at brilliant marketers
of the past, like Guy Halderman. Look at some of the current people, like
Lester Wonderman… I think he’s still alive but I don’t think he’s doing that
much. Look at Ted Nicholas, people who really do know copywriting and
marketing.
Look at their stuff, you get your folder of your hot sales letter file, get out a
bunch of junk mail lists. You read your junk mail and when you find a sales
letter or display ad that really appeals to you… even e-zines.
When I get an e-zine, say I have something written by Bill Bonner, let’s say,
because Bill is one of the best copywriters in the world today.
So I might get an e-zine from him, and I’ll print the whole thing out. It will
be an eighteen-page e-zine, or it will be an e-zine that directs me to an
eighteen-page sales letter, let’s say. I’ll print every page, hard copy, staple it
together and I’ll put it in my good sales letter file.
And when I want to write copy and I’m blocked and nothing’s really coming
to me, I’ll pull out that file and sort through it, look at the different offers.
It may be selling an information product on how to make money on the
Internet. But I may find inspiration from a sales letter written for a covenant
house to solicit donations, or by a letter that’s selling time-share products in
Mexico or something.
But I may see some feature, or some headline or an opening of a letter that
really stimulates my creative juices. I’m not going to plagiarize their thing,
I’m not going to steal their idea; but I’m going to get excited and inspired by
the concept. And then I’m going to identify the concept in a different context
and get really good results. That’s an important part of that.
I think the other thing I have to say is if you want to be a great copywriter
you need to write everyday.
And it’s okay if you’re not writing copy everyday, but you have to write
everyday. And if that means doing morning pages, if you’ve ever read the
book The Artist’s Way, if not that’s a good book to read if you want to be a
copywriter because it’s a very good book about happiness and creativity.
There’s an exercise in there called morning pages where you write notes and
a bunch of stuff every morning.
The other thing is just journal it. Get a journal and write in the journal every
morning or every day.
I find that I’m writing an entire website or an entire twenty-page sales letter
in a day, now.
Things that used to take me weeks I’m doing in hours or days, and I think it’s
just because I’m writing all the time. I write everyday. Every day I have a list
and every day I’m teaching my coaching program, so there’s a lot of that.
And I add to my newsletter. I’m writing all the time. The more you write, the
better you get at it and the easier it becomes to do it.
Dan:
Can you walk us through your step-by-step system for creating
sales copy?
Randy: Well, if I had one I’d love to. You know, I don’t really have a stepby-step system, but it’s a really creative process and it’s different for different
things.
Some constants would be: I first really, really get to know the product.
And if that’s a book I want to read the book, if that’s a taped album I want to
listen to the taped album. If it’s a widget I want to know what does it do, how
is it made, who buys it, why do they buy it, how do they use it?
The whole point is to come up with the most compelling benefits of the
product or service. Once I have that I’m going to isolate who I believe the
target market is. Target market? Not the people who need the product, it’s the
people who want the product.
So then I’m going to find the target market and then I’m going to find the one
person in my mind who’s in the target market. So if I think the target market
is nurses, I’m going to think of the one nurse I go to church with or the one
nurse I play softball with, and write the copy to them.
You never write to an audience of fifty thousand or a hundred thousand; just
one person in your target market. And then just write the letter to them. Of
course, I believe in everyday, conversational, eighth grade copy.
Use stream of consciousness, the same way you would put it if you were
sitting across from them at Starbucks. “Jimmy, I’ve got this great product and
I wanted to tell you about it! This thing will help you do this and help you do
that! Let me tell you why I think you should get it.”
Well, exactly the way you tell Jimmy in Starbucks, that’s the way you should
be writing the copy.
Write the copy, finish it, then go back and I do my internal message. I reread
it from the very start and I’m going to notice some editing, and some changes
I’m going to make at this point, but that’s when I’ll be highlighting or italics
or bold copy. Creating the internal message.
Then I want to let it breathe for a couple of days, then come back and reread
it and do the final edit then. It’s very hard to do a final edit of something
immediately after you write it. If you do this, you see what you think you
wrote, not necessarily what you wrote, and you could have the same word
three times in the same paragraph and it doesn’t catch you.
Whereas if you let it breathe for 48 hours, come back and read it, you’ll catch
it right away: “OH, I said ‘passion’ in the first sentence, the third sentence
and the fifth sentence. I need to find a different word to use for two of those
times because I don’t want to keep repeating it.”
So those are the fundamental steps you go through. In terms of the actual
copywriting process, I start with the headline, which is going to be a
powerful, benefit headline or a powerful, fear-based headline.
It’s either going to be the great benefits you’ll get from using this product or
the horrible outcome you’ll face by not using this product.
And depending on… Well, I may do an intrigue headline. It’s a headline that
they don’t have any idea about, and it forces them to read what the first
sentence in the actual copy is.
Then that will determine what the lead is, the opening I have. I’m going to
look at what is the emotion in the situation, and I like to start with that
compelling emotion. Then I’m going to go through the list of great benefits
they’re going to get if they get this product, or I’m going to go through the
great dangerous consequences they’re going to face if they don’t get this
product.
So I’m going to give them the headache, then I’m going to sell them the
aspirin, and by doing that I’m going to introduce the product. That’s when
I’m going to have my turning phrase: “…which is why I’m writing you… I
just created a new, sixteen-disc album on how you xyz, and it can solve all of
these problems we just talked about.
In fact, on disc #1 you’ll learn the seven secrets to creating da-da-da-da-da.
On disc #2 you’ll learn to avoid those mistakes that most people make.
You’ll learn the secrets of this and explore how to do that, and discover this
and discover that.”
I’m going to go through all the benefits of the product. I’m introducing it then
I’m going to the specific, tangible benefits of the product.
Then I’m going to make the offer; tell them how much it is and how to get it.
Then I’m going to reinforce the benefits again and offer a guarantee, which is
“There is on risk - complete money-back guarantee” or a ninety-day
guarantee or whatever. Or, depending on the situation, I just did copy for a
seminar that’s coming up next month that I’m speaking at, and I thought it
was important that we don’t offer guarantees.
And we tell them that. So I say that right in the copy. “There is no guaranteed
outcome. If you can’t learn how to make a couple million dollars listening to
this faculty of millionaires, you’re so hapless, helpless and hopeless I want
nothing to do with you.”
So either way. I did a program last year where I did a guarantee of $5,000
cash that I’ll give you if you didn’t think the program was worth at least
$250,000 by the first day and a half. So I told them, “You get all of your
money-back, and I’ll give you another $5,000 in cash.”
Dan:
My God.
Randy: Yeah, that was the program I did about six months ago. And it was
an expensive program, it cost $6,500 a person, plus their airfare, hotel,
whatever. So they were paying $10,000 a person, probably.
But they knew if it wasn’t everything I promised they’d get all their money
back and I’d give them $5,000 cash out of my pocket. I didn’t have to pay a
single refund.
I had fifty-five people from all over the world. There were people, by the
way, who came just to get the refund. I had a guy come up to the
microphone: “I want to tell you the truth. I came here to get the $5,000. I
don’t even have a hotel room tonight. I booked my room for the one night
only, I’ve got an airplane ticket home. I had no plans on staying here, but I
realize now I can’t afford to leave. There’s no way I can afford to miss the
last three days of this event.”
I’m sure he wasn’t the only one.
He was the only one who came to the mic and admitted it, though.
So you can go either way. You’re going to either go with the guarantee and
show them why it’s so compelling, how they have nothing to lose with this
guarantee; or you’re going to go the route I did and go the opposite direction,
as I did on that seminar thing.
I said “There’s no guarantee. If you can’t make it with this, forget it. You’re
such a moron there’s no help for you.” And you’re kind of slapping them in
the face a little.
It’s confrontational copy, which I’m very comfortable writing and I don’t
have a problem doing that. Some people, depending on their personality type
or their style, they just wouldn’t do it.
But I’m the kind of person where, if I were sitting across the table from you
at Starbucks, that’s how I’d talk. And I’d say, “Are you crazy? If you need a
refund… Are you serious? I’ll slap you into next week!”
That’s the way I talk at Starbucks, so that’s the way I’m going to talk in my
copy. I’m going to do the guarantee, then I’m going to do a call to action,
wrap it up.
Then I’m going to come back with a PS and restate the call to action, or
maybe highlight some of the target benefits, or maybe introduce an incentive
to respond. If they respond within 48 hours there’s another free bonus report
or something like that. So those are the elements of the copy.
Dan:
Okay.
Randy: One other thing that might be worth noting is, when it’s web copy
these days, depending on the length of the copy, I probably have three closes
that I don’t have in a sales letter.
In a sales letter… For instance, this program I did for $6,500 with the $5,000
refund, I think the sales letter was 44 pages.
There were people who read eight pages into it, and they decided right then
and there that they were going to go. So then they just go to the registration
page in the back and they sign up. They can’t necessarily do that on the
Internet.
So if I have a long copy letter on the internet then I usually build in a couple
of pre-closes, where it might be after six pages I’ll have down at the bottom a
button that says “Buy Now” and a button that says “Tell Me More”.
If they’re ready to buy they’ll just click through and go to the shopping cart
to buy it; if they’re not they’ll click “Tell Me More” and I’ll get a chance to
give them more information.
Dan:
Now, Randy, how do you sell a high-ticket item on the Internet?
Randy: Long copy. For that $6,500 program, that entire 44-page sales letter
was on the Internet.
Dan:
Forty-four pages?
Randy: Forty-four pages. Now, I broke it into ten very long pages, so each
scroll-down section of the site was about four pages printed offline.
But every single word, comma and colon was on the website.
I believe that’s the way you sell big-ticket items: online, offline, outer space,
Pacific Ocean… I don’t care where you are. The bigger the price the more
information the prospect needs to make the right decision.
Dan:
Now, Randy, a lot of listeners who are listening to this program are
information marketers. Can you give our listeners some insider tips on how to
create and sell information?
Randy: Well, I believe information is the most valuable commodity in the
world today. More valuable than real estate, gold, diamonds, money, stocks,
bonds.
Notice that people will trade all of those things for information. So the
biggest element you’ve got to be aware of when you’re an information
marketer is the medium doesn’t matter.
You can sell stuff in a three-ring binder and sell it for $897. It doesn’t… You
know, understand: I think there’s people out there who sell some pretty rattylooking stuff, and I think it really would behoove them to spend some money
on a graphic designer and do stuff better.
I had that conversation with Ted Nicholas once. Ted’s been very, very
successful; he’s one of my favorite people in the world.
He’s made millions on millions on millions of dollars selling information
products. When we did programs together I said, “Ted, I’m going to take
your stuff, I’m going to create some new covers for it.” And I did.
I actually gave it to my graphic designer and asked him to create some
covers. I just think the packaging being better does a couple of things. One, it
extends the return rate.
No one pays $297 for a binder and it comes, the FedEx guy or the UPS guy
comes and they rip open the box and they’re excited. And then there’s this
binder from Office Depot and it’s got this black and white copy sheet in the
insert, and there’s typo and it hasn’t been edited.
There’s just no excuse for that. Do something a little more upscale than that.
But really don’t get seduced by the dark side of the forest there and think it’s
all about packaging. Because it’s not.
You can sell a report for $1,500 and all it is, is an 87-page or 88-page, printed
on white paper report, if the information is critical enough for the target
market.
So I’ve got taped albums for $2,000, I’ve got taped albums we sold for
$4,477.The beginning entrepreneur out the door says, “Wait, they’ve got six
tapes in there and they cost me thirty cents a piece, so that’s $1.80, and the
album costs $1.50, and the printing in there…So I’ve got $4 there and I’ll sell
it for $15, three times what I paid. Wow, that’s great!”
You look at what is the value of the information. I’ve got albums I’ve sold
for $2,000 or $1,700 that might cost me $20 to make, or $40 to make… that’s
irrelevant.
What’s relevant is what can the consumer do with the information once they
buy it?
If they can take my $1,700 taped album and make a couple of million dollars
from it, what’s the lousy $1,700 I’m charging for it? It’s inconsequential.
And that’s the most important thing for information marketers: realize the
value. If you want to make tapes, make tapes; if you want to make DVDs,
make DVDs. CD-ROMs, printed special reports… do them all. I have
products in all those modalities.
My current project in on prosperity. It comes with thirty audio CDs, two
video DVDs, it’s got a CD-ROM and it’s got a workbook.
I’ve got four different multimedia components in there.
Because with that product I want to help reach their consciousness with a
whole bunch of different ways and avenues. It’s a thirty-one day program, so
that’s why it makes sense.
But then I have other products that are one format or another. Look at it this
way: “How can I bundle all this information together and put it in a medium
that lets people buy it and apply it, and make that information work for
them?” You do that and you’re going to make a lot of money.
Dan:
Wow. Okay. Randy, how can our listeners find out more about your
products and services?
Randy: Probably the best place to go to is www.randygage.com. And that’s
kind of my Starfleet command site.
I’ve got probably three or four hundred different URLs now, which lead to
nine main sites, which branch off into forty or fifty individual sites. And by
the way, all of which are profitable.
I don’t have any websites that don’t make money; I don’t have any websites
that lose money. Because if you go through and study them you’ll see that
they’re pretty simple, a lot of sales letter site. I do a sales letter site for each
individual product, each individual seminar.
It’s not hard to make money online. If it’s copy driven and a good value, and
you have products that people like and all that, you can do that.
So anyway, go to www.randygage.com. That will branch off to all the other
sites depending on what your area of interest is, but that’s probably the best
place to start.
Dan:
Now, Randy, just before we close, can I ask you one more
question? You’ll like this. I want you to imagine this. Imagine… Let’s say I
take away everything you have right now. I take away all of your money. I
take away all of your contacts. I take away all of your fame.
So basically you have to start all over again. But I’ll leave you with your
marketing and copywriting skills. Here’s the challenge: You must make a
million dollars in the next three years, otherwise you’ll die.
What would you do to become a millionaire again?
Randy: Well, first of all I’d do it in ninety days. I would never wait two
years and nine months… It would take me ninety days if you took everything
away and gave me nothing but my copywriting skills and marketing ability. It
would take me ninety days.
What I would do is I’d go to the library, I’d go online and I’d start surfing
websites.
I would find five to ten strategic partners, which would be people that have a
large list, a database or customer base. It doesn’t even have to be online; it
could be someone who has a 200,000-customer list for a ball bearing factory.
It doesn’t matter. Or it could be an information marketer who has a list of ezine sub- scribers, 25,000 people but they’re not all subscribers.
So I’d look for people who had a good product and a very available target
market, and don’t have the copy to put the two together in the most effective
way.
And I would go and do venture deals with them. I would say, “Great, you’ve
got this $500 course on how to buy real estate. I’m going to create copy for
you, you can put it into a sales letter, mail it out. I’ll help you find some lists.
You can put it on the Internet site and we’ll sell it online.
We’re going to sell it for $500; I want $250 of the $500 for every one that
you sell.” And I’d go on and get about ten strategic partnerships like that, and
I’d have my million dollars.
Dan:
Wow. Well, Randy, you’ve given us literally a million dollar
education in one hour. I really appreciate you sharing these ideas with us. I
want to thank you on behalf of myself and our listeners. It’s been wonderful
talking with you.
Randy: I want to thank you for doing this. It’s a lot of fun talking to you. I
love the part that you’re doing and where you’re going with it. I look forward
to hearing some of the other people and going through the whole thing
myself.
Dan:
Thanks a lot, Randy. Have a good day.
Randy: All right. You too.
Dan:
Bye-bye.
Bob Bly - Author of The Copywriter's
Handbook
Bob Bly - Author of The Copywriter's Handbook
Bob Bly has written copy for over 100 clients including Network Solutions,
ITT Fluid Technology, Medical Economics, Intuit, Business & Legal Report
s , and Brooklyn Union Gas.
His awards include a Gold Echo from the Direct Marketing Association, an
IMMY from the Information Industry Association, two Southstar Awards, an
American Corporate Identity Award of Excellence, and the Standard of
Excellence award from the Web Marketing Association.
Bob writes sales letters, direct mail packages, ads, e-mail marketing
campaigns, brochures, articles, press releases, white papers, Web sites,
newsletters, scripts, and other marketing materials clients need to sell their
products and services to businesses. He also consults with clients on
marketing strategy, mail order selling, and lead generation programs.
He is the author of more than 50 books including The Complete Idiot’s Guide
To Direct Marketing and The Copywriter’s Handbook. His articles have
appeared in many publications such as DM News, Writer’s Digest, Amtrak
Express, Cosmopolitan, Inside Direct Mail, and Bits & Pieces for
Salespeople.
Going beyond copy and content, Bob has presented marketing, sales, and
writing seminars for such groups as the U.S. Army, Independent Laboratory
Distributors Association, American Institute of Chemical Engineers, and the
American Marketing Association. He also taught business-to-business
copywriting and technical writing at New York University.
Bob has appeared as a guest on dozens of TV and radio shows including
Money Talk 1350, The Advertising Show, Bernard Meltzer, Bill Bresnan,
CNBC, Winning in Business, The Small Business Advocate and CBS Hard
Copy. He has been featured in major media ranging from the LA Times and
Nation’s Business to the New York Post and the National Enquirer.
Dan:
Bob, we’ve got a lot to cover during this interview, so why don’t
you start off by talking about your background and how you got into
copywriting?
Bob:
I had no intent of being a writer. This was not a planned career. My
interest was Science: I wanted to be a scientist. So when I went to college I
majored in chemistry; I figured I’d be a chemist. That’s my favorite science.
But I rapidly discovered that you have to have a Ph.D. to rise to the top of
that field, to be anything more than a lower-level technician.
I didn't like college that much so I didn’t want to stay there for the eight years
or whatever it would take to get a Ph.D.
So I looked around and I said, “I've already been a chemistry major for two
years; what major can I switch to that I wouldn't have to throw away all those
credits?” The only one that fit the bill was chemical engineering. So I
switched to chemical engineering.
I made the switch because you only need a bachelor’s degree to work in the
field at a very high-level. But I didn’t know what the job involved, and when
I moved to that major I found I had less aptitude for that than I had for
chemistry, and I was already turning out to not be a great chemistry student.
Now, when you’re an engineering major, companies come on campus and
they interview all the seniors and offer them jobs. I had four years, and as an
extracurricular activity, I been the editor of the college magazine and the
college newspaper. I always liked writing and books and reading.
That interest in writing came through during interviews.
They asked, “What are your extracurricular activities?” and so on. And one of
the companies that came on campus, Westinghouse, said, “You know, we
hire writers and having a technical background would really be an
advantage.”
So I had interviews with two different divisions of Westinghouse and both of
them offered me writing jobs.
And that’s how I got into this.
Dan:
That’s such an interesting story! So you had no plan of being a
copywriter at all?
Bob:
Never. When I went to college, I didn’t know what a copywriter
was. I had not studied and had no interest in marketing, knew nothing about
it. I liked reading books, short stories and novels, and nonfiction and
newspapers, but it never occurred to me that I would be a writer.
During senior year when I had those interviews with colleges, I tried in vain
to get
a newspaper job because, as I mentioned, I was the Features Editor of my
college news- papers. I said, “Maybe I could do this, even though it pays
much less than engineering.”
I got one interview.
I wrote to hundreds of newspapers and I got one interview with the
Associated Press in Buffalo. So I took a bus there some cold winter
morning… from Rochester to Buffalo in sub-zero temperatures. I got there,
walked a mile from the bus station to the building… To make a long story
short: I didn’t get the job because I failed the spelling test!
Dan:
Well, Bob, now we know how you got here! How about sharing
some of the copywriting lessons you’ve learned over the years?
Bob:
Well, of course that’s a subject you can talk about for hours. But if I
had to answer the question “What’s the most important lesson I have learned
in twenty-four years?” -- because I’ve been a professional copywriter since
1979 and a full-time freelance copy- writer since early 1982 -- my answer
would be something that has often been repeated and is not original to me.
I’d say: Don’t focus on being clever or creative as so many marketers and
copywriters think is the focus.
Focus on being apt and relevant. Get inside the mind of the customer… and
of course there are techniques for doing that. And write from their view:
What are your readers’ needs? What are her needs, fears, concerns, wishes?
Start there and then link those to the product.
Don’t, as most people do, start with the product and link the product to the
facts, and just try to be clever and highlight some irrelevant feature. Get into
the core complex of the buyer.What are their emotions? What are their
feelings; what are their fears? And if you can speak to one of those more
powerful, basic human needs and concerns your copy is going to be a lot
more relevant and powerful.
So I say: Don’t worry about being creative; be germane. What is the reader
interested in? What is the biggest problem he has the product could help him
solve?
Dan:
What are some of the techniques you just talked about for getting
inside a consumer’s mind?
Bob:
Well, for example, one technique that I find helpful is to do an
analysis. And I didn’t make this up; it’s the idea of a friend of mine who’s a
copywriter.
He and I just taught a copywriting seminar together in Florida over the
weekend. His name is Michael Masterson and he invented what I call the
BDF Formula: BDF for Belief, Desire, Feelings.
He says, “Before you write copy, analyze the audience and ask yourself these
questions: What are their beliefs? What do these folks believe? What is their
attitude? What are their prejudices? What are their preconceived notions?
What are their firmly held convictions? What do they believe?
What do they need? What do they want most? And what are their feelings?
Are they scared? Are they nervous? Are they egotistical? Do they have low
self-esteem? Are they patriotic? Are they religious?
And then, if you do an in-depth analysis -- and I do this exercise in all my
copywriting seminars and have some great examples -- you’re often able to
come up with something that’s much stronger than you would do if you just
wrote to the reader on the surface of things… In other words, copy that’s
based merely on demographics or something you got from market research,
or a mailing list data card.
Dan:
Okay. Any other techniques?
Bob:
Sure. In his book, David Ogilvy essentially said the headline is 80%
of the ad. It’s the most important part. Therefore if you’re going to fine tune
one part of your copy, it would pay for it to be the headline… of the ad, or
the ad on envelope teaser, the headline of the letter, the first ten seconds of
your radio commercial, or the cover of your brochure…
And there’s another technique for doing this, we taught this at the seminar
this weekend, which we call the secret of the four “U’s”. A good headline has
four characteristics and they all start with the letter “u,” which is convenient.
It’s Useful… There’s something that benefits the reader.
It’s Unique… It’s different and not something that everybody else is saying.
It’s Ultraspecific… because specifics sell and generalities don’t. Let me
explain. Saying “Good quality” is not specific. Saying it is “Fine-tuned to a
precision of .303 nm” that’s ultraspecific. And it’s Urgent… There is a time
sense, a reason to act now instead of later.
So it’s Unique, Useful, Urgent and Ultraspecific. And we teach students to go
through their headlines and rate them in each of those categories on a scale of
1 to 4, where 4 is the highest rating and 1 is the lowest rating. After you do
that, if your headline doesn’t register at least a 3 in all four categories, go
back and rewrite it until you can increase it’s rating a half-point or a point in
two or three or four of those categories.
That’s an easy, mechanical and very effective way to go back and make your
headline stronger… to do due diligence on your headline.
Dan:
And Bob, can you give us some examples of compelling headlines?
Bob:
Sure, there was one recently for a manufacturer of nutritional
supplements that I saw.
And the headline of their mailing was: “When Doctor’s Get Sick, This is
What They Do.” It’s an unusual way to say, “This cure or this supplement is
effective.”
Another one that I did recently that was successful, was a package for a tax
newsletter, and the outer envelope said: “Inside: The Eight Most Important
New Tax Laws of 2003... Can You Name Them All?” That was effective.
There are many classic headlines. We can go to older ones. I was giving the
more con- temporary ones, but of course the older ones are interesting.
There’s the simple, classic Dale Carnegie headline: “How To Win Friends
and Influence People.” And if you look at that against the four U’s, which
one is it best on? It’s useful. It makes a big promise.
And that’s another, well, not a ‘secret’ because so many people know it, but
it’s a technique. The technique plays on the fact that people ignore
advertising, especially today, in what people say is an over-communicated
society. Therefore advertising isn’t noticed unless it makes a very big
promise… unless it features a strong benefit in the headline.
I did a mailing a few years ago during the tech stock boom for a stock
newsletter, and the outer envelope said: “The One Internet Stock You Must
Own Now …Hint: It’s not the company you think.”
Dan:
That’s just awesome. And it makes you want to read more.
Bob:
The part that made it work, I think, was the “Hint: It’s not the one
you think.” Because if you just say “The one Internet stock you must own
now” the reader just thinks, “Oh, yeah, it’s Yahoo.”
Dan:
Or Amazon, yeah.
Bob:
But then they say, “Wait a minute, it’s not the one I think.” So it has
that element of the unknown…it arouses curiosity.
So those are a few. I can give you more. On my web site, by the way, there is
a portfolio page where people can see mailings and ads. You know, many
successful pieces I’ve done over the years. They can study the headlines and
the outer envelopes of all of these mail- ings that we’re talking about.
Dan:
And your domain is…?
Bob:
It’s my last name. It’s www.bly.com. And when you go there just
click on the word “port- folio” on the left and you can see all these examples.
You can read them. You can view them as thumbnails and then you can blow
them up, you can read every word of them if you want, and you can take a
look at them.
Dan:
All right. Now, Bob, let’s say I’m hiring you for a copywriting
assignment. Do you do research first, or do you do interviews with the
clients? Can you walk us through your step-by-step system for writing great
copy?
Bob:
I’m glad to do it; but because I like to be automated, the step-bystep system that I’m going to walk you through is on my web site. If you go
to the www.bly.com home page, you’ll see there’s a button that says on the
left “methodology”. And I have the methodologies by which I do various
tasks, and one of them is how I do copywriting. So if you click there it will
list the steps.
My number one step, if you were looking at the page now, says that I gather
as much information as I can about the product and the market. So my step
number one is research; I gather everything I can and read it.
Then step two is telephone interviews and/or email interviews with the client.
If it’s a newsletter, I talk with the publisher and with the editor. Then, if I can
and if they’re avail- able, I talk with some customers, subscribers or buyers.
Step three is to come up with an idea, which is usually a description of the ad
or the mailing I propose to create and some sample headlines, and present
that to my client.
After approval of the ideas, the next step is to expand the idea into the copy
for the full promotion. Whether it’s a direct mail package, or a landing page
or an ad or whatever.
Dan:
So that’s the step-by-step system?
Bob:
Almost. Again, on the web site on that methodology page, I give
eleven steps. I wouldn’t read them now to you, but they’re right on the web
site.
Dan:
Okay. Now let’s say I’ve already done the research and I want to
start writing right now.
Do you have a template that you follow personally?
Bob:
There’s no real template. Having said that, obviously there’s the
template there is. Most persuasive documents have a basic template that is
fundamental to copy and is not con- fined to their format. I call that template
“the motivating sequence. Whether you know the formula or have heard of it
or not, you use it in everything you do.
Beyond that, obviously yes, if it’s a mag-alog it has a different format or
template than a sales letter, than a direct mail package, than an emailmarketing message. Obviously, in each medium there are certain mediaspecific requirements you have to follow. For instance, an email marketing
message has to have a “From” line and a “Subject” line. A direct mail letter
does not have that.
But in either case, the motivating sequence is a simple, five-step sequence.
Just to run through it quickly, step number one: You have to get attention. Do
something to get attention. There are a dozen ways to do that.
Step number two in my motivating sequence the way I framed it is to identify
the need or the problem. I mean, every message either addresses a reader’s
need or solves a problem of some sort -- you’re hungry…you’re thirsty…you
need money. Identify that need or problem in your copy.
Once you’ve done that, step three is position your product or service as the
solution to that problem.
So you might say -- and I’ll give you an example of this in a minute -number four is proof. In other words, if I say “My service can solve your
problem…” If I say, “My long- distance communications network can control
your telephone costs and give you more network reliability” then I have to
prove that. And there’s a dozen to a dozen and a half ways to do that.
Step five is a call to action. Ask for the orders; ask for the inquiries .Tell the
reader what you want him to do next and give him a reason to do it. More
than that, provide them a reason to do it now instead of later.
And that’s the motivating sequence. #1 - Get attention, #2 - State the need or
problem, #3 - Position your product or service as a solution, #4 - Prove your
case, convince the skeptical reader, #5 - Ask for action.
Everything that I write…or any other copywriter writes…fits in that template
Dan:
Okay. Now, Bob, let’s go back to step number one. How do you get
attention? What are some of the ways?
Bob:
There are about a dozen good attention-getting techniques and they
vary. They’re a combination of copy and graphics and design.
For example, if I’m doing a direct mail package, and I notice that in my
market everybody is using a #10 envelope or a monarch size envelope, I
might send a giant-size envelope, a #12. Its unusual size alone will get
attention.
That’s one way. Another way might be for me to have an envelope with a big
window on it where my color brochure is showing through the back. That’s
another way to get attention.
Now, these are mechanical ways; they’re not the most important ways. I’m
going to get to those in a second.
Number three might be if you have a very attractive and powerful offer, then
you should lead with the offer up-front. I did a mailing for… it’s going to
sound like an oddball thing… but I did a mailing for a McGraw Hill product
called the Chemical Engineer’s Book Club. It’s a book club for chemical
engineers. They sign up and they could buy very expensive books… because
chemical engineering books are very expensive… at a discount.
The offer was to join the club for a nominal fee and you would get this giant
handbook of chemical engineering called Perry’s, which is very famous. And
McGraw Hill was giving away Perry’s, which is a very expensive book. At
an absurdly low price… this nominal fee.
They explained to me that they knew they wanted to do this promotion and
had over- printed their Perry’s so they had them to give away. But I just
couldn’t understand why they would do that… because it was three times the
value they were giving it away for you to join the club.
But then I used the puzzled-ness, my own confoundedness as the headline…
on the outer envelope. I wrote: “Why are we giving away (almost free) this
massive, valuable, 50th Anniversary Edition of Perry’s Chemical Handbook
(a $149 value)?”
And it did well. I just led with the offer to get attention. But there is another
technique in that headline that’s effective. Did you notice that I used a
question? Question headlines can be effective.
Are you familiar with a little management magazine they used to publish
called Bits & Pieces that you would carry around? People who are in the
corporate world remember Bits & Pieces. It was a widely published, little
management newspaper and its little charm was that it would fit in a shirt
pocket.
Bits & Pieces had a campaign they ran for many years and it asked a
question. On the outer envelope it said: “What do Japanese managers have
that American managers some- times lack?” So that’s another technique of
getting attention.
Another one is to arouse curiosity: “When doctors get sick… this is what they
do.” You want to know what it is.
“The eight most important tax breaks of the 2003 tax laws: Do you know
them all?” You want to know what they are.
Peter Bechel, a colleague of mine who’s a great copywriter, did a headline for
a diet pro d- uct that actually allowed you to lose weight while you were
eating, probably because it burned fat or whatever. And the headline was:
“Eat yourself thin.”
Dan:
Ooh. It is good! Any other ways?
Bob:
Oh sure. We talked about arousing curiosity; we talked about
offering a benefit. There are two other ways that are interesting. You can get
attention either by telling people some- thing they know or by telling them
something they don’t know.
Now you’re probably thinking, “How can they both work? They’re the
opposite.”
When you tell someone something they know, they have this shock of
recognition as they listen to what you’re saying and they go, “Oh this guy
totally understands me. He knows exactly what my problem is. I’d better
listen.”
So you can send out a little letter that says: “Dear Network Administrator:
Are networking error messages and broken links keeping you up nights? Are
you sick and tired of having your users call you at midnight looking for their
email?” You’re telling them things you know they know. You know what
their life is like and that will work, that’s one approach that will work.
On the other hand, I had a client I did a job for where he had a software
product that prevented storage devices from accidentally erasing each other. I
said, “Why do you need that?” And he said, “That happens all the time, even
though IT people don’t know it.
These storage devices erase each other all the time.”
So my letter began this way: “Dear IT Professional: Did you know that while
you read this sentence your mass storage could accidentally be erasing
thousands of dollars of valuable files you can never recover?” You’re telling
them something they didn’t know.
So those are the two methods that work; tell them something they do know or
tell them something they don’t know.
Dan:
Okay. We know step one, how to get attention. Let’s move to step
two: state a problem. How do we do that?
Bob:
Remember I said step number two is identify or state the problem or
the need, and step number three is to quickly make the transition between
stating the problem or need to positioning your product or service as the
solution.
I’m going to give you an example from a fundraising letter that was the best
example I had ever seen of this, done concisely and effectively. It was from
the Red Cross and it read this way… it was a personalized letter. It said:
“Dear Mr. Bly: Someday, you may need the Red Cross.”
That’s the problem: I may need their services. If I don’t have them I might
die, I’ll be injured. And obviously there’s a benefit in there. “Someday, you
may need the Red Cross.”
The next paragraph starts, “But right now, the Red Cross needs you.” That’s
the solution. You respond to the offer. You give the Red Cross money, so
when you need blood they won’t be out of business and they’ll be able to
send someone, and you’ll be alive. And that’s it.
Basically, this is artless. You just state the problem in the first paragraph:
“Are your long- distance telephone charges out of control?” And then you
position your product or service as the solution: “Verizon business rate from
AT&T can help.” And that’s it. That’s the easy part.
Dan:
Okay. Sounds good. Now, Bob, what’s step number four?
Bob:
Step number four is the proof, and as I said there’s half a dozen to a
dozen ways of proving what you say. Wondering why you need that step?
Why can’t you go to step five which is asking for action like this “Hey
reader, I got your attention, I know you have a problem, I can solve the
problem using my product… it’s time to buy”?
You have to prove it because people are skeptical; they are bombarded by
promotions, by advertising messages. Most of the time, most of us who are
advertisers are promoting products from companies the reader is not familiar
with. And so you have to prove your case.
How do you do that? Well, one easy way that I’m sure entered your mind as I
was saying this is you get testimonials. You collect testimonials from your
satisfied buyers and you put them in your advertising. That is the simplest,
easiest, no-brainer and best way to prove your case.
And there are many other ways.
For example, let’s say you have a product and it’s been around awhile. Let’s
say you’ve sold over 2100 units… That translates into “thousands sold” as in
“Thousands of people are using this incredible product!” Or let’s say you
launched it in 1982. “For over two decades, thousands of people have
been…”
It’s funny: you always manipulate a statistic in your favor. I was just talking
about this at the writing seminar. Have you ever seen the catalogs for Harry
& David’s, the mail-order fruit company?
Dan:
No, I haven’t.
Bob:
No? This company has been around for half a century or so and
they sell fruit by mail. They have the Fruit of the Month Club, and they sell
exotic fruits that supposedly you can’t get elsewhere. They’re the experts at
manipulating statistics.
They have a line in their catalog when they’re talking about their special
Royal Riviera hybrid pears that state, “These pears are so rare that not even
one person in a thousand has tasted them.”
Dan:
Bob:
them!
That sounds pretty exclusive!
I know. But what it means is they’re unpopular and no one buys
Another example we use is what we call false logic. That is, we say
something that sounds logical and the reader will accept, so they convince
themselves that our argument-- or what we’re selling -- is right, even though
if you analyzed it, you’d realize it’s not proven at all.
Here’s a perfect example: I saw a promotion that was shown at the seminar
by one of the other speakers. It was for a health market, a guy who sells
vitamins and supplements and other alternative medicine newsletters.
He was selling a product, a water purifier or a filter that you put in your sink.
And he was trying to sell the reader on the idea of purifying his water. The
headline, which I thought was brilliant, was: “Since 70% of your body is
made of water, it pays to drink the most pure, natural water available.”
He’s selling a water filter…and doesn’t that sound right? But if you think
about it, just because you’re made of water, does that mean you have to drink
pure water? Not really. I bet you it’s not something that’s scientifically
provable… that drinking pure water alters the water in your body.
Dan:
But it just sounded believable.
Bob:
I know! Here’s another example false logic. You drive by a
McDonald’s and it says: 100 Billion Sold. What does that tell you? It says it
must be good because everyone buys one. But is it a great hamburger?
Dan:
Arguably… no.
Bob:
So it’s false logic. People see a book listed as a “New York Times
Bestseller” so they say, “Oh, it must be good.” Does being a best seller that
makes it good? No! So false logic is another technique that will work.
Dan:
Bob:
That’s a great one. Any others?
Sure. Another one that I think is very overlooked is ROI. Jay
Abraham says it this way; he likes to say: “Will you give me a quarter if I
give you a dollar?” Meaning that you want to show that buying the product is
a good investment because you get a return on your investment.
I call this: The “drop in the bucket” technique. You want to show the value
the consumer will get from the product, the tremendous value, makes the
price you are asking look like a drop in the bucket by comparison.
I do a lot of copy selling, as you can tell from what we’re discussing, things
like publications and newsletters. Let’s say I’m selling a newsletter on
creativity or time management.
You know we’re basically asking for $100 or $70 or $120 for twelve issues
of eight pages each. It’s good value when you consider the worth of
information, but there are some people who say, “I’m paying, like, $15 or
$10 an issue for an eight-page newsletter. For $2 I can get Money Magazine
at the newsstand and it’s 200 pages long.”
So how do we prove the value? I often use the sentence: “Just one good idea
from one issue of Executive Leadership (or whatever the newsletter is) can
pay back the cost of your subscription a hundred times over or more.”
Pointing out the value of a good idea or information makes the price we’re
asking seem low by comparison.
That’s one method. Other ways of doing it are third-party endorsements. In
other words, if you can make it seem like the media is supporting your
product, that’s golden. This also, by the way, ties into false logic.
Here’s an example: You’ve seen products advertised where on the box or on
the ad there’s a little red square that says “As Seen on TV.” It makes it sound
like TV -- the media -- is supporting the product.
But those guys paid for a commercial! Still, nobody questions it. They figure,
“Oh, the TV covered it, it must be good.” So a third-party backing is
powerful.
I had a client, and I didn’t do this directly on the package, but he was selling
a newsletter on commodity trading. A copywriter found a quote, an article in
Business Week where the writer of the article said “Commodities are still
probably the last area where the average investor can still make a killing.” So
the outer envelope of this newsletter says: “Business Week called it ‘the last
place where the average investor can still make a killing.”
It sounded like Business Week was backing the newsletter inside, but they
weren’t… still, he made that connection. And he never said that Business
Week created the newsletter. He also said, “Business Week says
commodities…” And it sounded like Business Week was somehow backing
the service rather than the general value of commodities. It was effective.
Dan:
And if I can just quickly add for people who are just getting started
and don’t have a testimonial, they can find quotes from books and magazines
that they can use in their ads.
Bob:
Absolutely! Nutritional supplement makers -- and I do much work
in this industry -- do this all the time.
For example, let’s say we’re selling a supplement for prostate. The formula
contains a combination of seven supplements, one of which is lycopene.
We find in an article in the Journal of the American Medical Association that
says lycopene may promote prostate health, and then we can say: “Even the
Journal of the American Medical Association says ‘lycopene can promote
prostate health.”
Now, the product isn’t lycopene, but it contains lycopene. So the AMA
journal statement is like an implied endorsement. In fact, we call this
technique “implied endorsement” and it’s very effective.
Even better, of course, is an actual testimonial. We talked about getting
customer and user testimonials. But there’s another simple technique that I
don’t do a lot -- celebrity endorsements. They’re effective.
Dan:
Okay Bob. What about the last step? The call to action?
Bob:
The call to action… This is a complex step. It means asking for the
order or asking for the inquiry and making an offer -- basically what you get
when you respond to the ad or the mailing combined with what you have to
do to get it.
So an offer might be something like: “Mail the enclosed reply card and we
will send you a copy of our new audiocassette album, The Edge of Success,
to use free for thirty days. If you like it, just honor our invoice for $69.99 plus
shipping and handling. If you don’t, just return the product to us within thirty
days and owe nothing.”
So, the offer is the price, the terms, the guarantee, the method of delivery, the
warrantee, and the trial period. By manipulating the offer or using varied
offers you can get a tremendous difference in response.
So the offer, the phrasing of it and the actual look of the phrasing of it, the
semantics as well as the substance of it, are very, very important. It can make
a difference in your response rates for basically the same promotion.
Dan:
Okay. Now, Bob, I’m really amazed. It seems like you’ve sold all
kinds of products. How do you do that?
Bob:
Well I am what most people call a freelance copywriter or a contract
copywriter… an independent copywriter. So in other words, I don’t have my
own set of products.
I’m not a publisher and I’m not a mail order company. I’m not a
manufacturer. I don’t have the luxury of selling just the same two or three
products all the time. Companies who want their products sold hire me on a
contract basis, and so I have to deal with many different products.
Now, the advantage I have is even though it’s a diverse number of products,
it falls into the same half a dozen or so categories: Newsletters, Financial
Services, Health Care and Nutritional Supplements.
90% of my work is in five or six or seven different areas. And through long
experience I know how these promotions are written, I can keep up with
them. The remaining 10% of my work is things that are outside the
mainstream, and I take those on cautiously. I don’t want to get into too many
things where I have a tremendous learning curve.
But yes, as a contract copywriter you have to work on more products than
you would if you were a staff copywriter at marketing company, or the
president or the owner of such a company.
Dan:
Okay now, Bob, let’s say someone wants to become a pro like you.
What do they have to do to become a high-paid, professional copywriter?
Bob:
Well, there are two basic steps, and I can give you those steps and
some resources .The steps are as follows: You have to learn how to write
copy at a competent level. You don’t have to be great to start but you have to
be at least competent. You also have to know how to sell and market your
freelance copywriting services, which is a separate issue.
There are some people who are great copywriters who cannot promote or
market him- self or herself, and so freelancing is not a good choice for them.
Or they need help from someone who could help with marketing efforts.
There are other people who want to freelance and are great promoters, and
they can make an acceptable living, but their copy isn’t that great. Still, they
can serve a client base that doesn’t have high demands or expectations.
So ideally, you want to learn both those things: how to write good copy and
how to sell yourself as a freelance copywriter. And if you do only those two
things you can be successful and earn a fairly good living.
Now, I’ve written on both of those subjects, about how to write copy. My
web site has many resources on both of those. If you go to www.bly.com and
click on the articles page, there are tons of articles on how to write copy that
you can download and read free. If you click on the “For Writers Only” page,
there’s a ton of advice on how to market yourself and be successful as a
freelance writer.
The core of it is I’ve written two books for how to write copy: The
Copywriter’s Handbook, and -- for how to be a freelance copywriter -- the
book Secrets of a Freelance Writer. They’re both available through the web
site or at www.amazon.com.
Dan:
Okay. So if someone wants to learn how to do what you do they
should get your books. It’s that simple?
Bob:
Well, I mean there’s plenty of other help out there. And I have
much of it on my web site. For example, on the “For Writers Only” page, I
list not only my books but I list every book that’s been written in modern
times on how to be a freelance copywriter. I would get everyone I list on the
web site.
With writing copy, there’s not a shortage of material. There are many courses
and e- books available on the Internet. The point is that you don’t need to
limit yourself to my books. I just mentioned them because obviously, those
are the ones I start people with.
Dan:
Okay. So let me rephrase the question: How about sharing some
shortcuts to great copy?
Bob:
to like.
Some shortcuts? Uh-oh. Here’s the bad news that you’re not going
Dan:
There’re no shortcuts?
Bob:
Well, there is a shortcut to learning the technique. I’ll give you that
first… and then the bad news.
People ask me, “How do I learn what works in direct mail?” You need to
start with what people in the industry call a “swipe file.” You find direct
marketers, and then you look at their ads and get their products. As soon as
you do that you’re going to get all their mailings. You can buy a product or
two from major direct marketers, such as Nightingale Coleman, Waldron,
Nutrition and Healing, or Medical Economics.
Start studying and filing the mailings that look interesting to you. Then pay
close attention and note which mailings they send you over and over again.
These direct marketers would not send these mailings out repeatedly unless
the mailings were profitable. In other words, the marketers know the mailings
are working and making money, otherwise they would never send them out a
second time.
So you study those mailings. They’re what we call controls. A control is a
marketer’s most successful promotion for any particular product.
Study the controls like a minister-in-training would study the Bible. I don’t
mean to be sacrilegious, but those controls are your “bible”… the best
education that exists in direct marketing.
You read them and you copy them. Many people copy them word-for-word.
You annotate them, which is what I do, and mark them up and organize them
in the swipe file. So if you need an example of a good letter you look in here.
And if you need an example of a good order form you look in this file. And if
you study them, you’ll find what’s working, because people have spent
thousands of dollars to test and develop those working ones, and you build a
model after it and follow it.
That’s the short cut.
The bad news is that even though you have that shortcut, you still have to
write a lot to get good. This guy I teach the copywriting courses with,
Michael Masterson, he always says “To become competent at something you
have to do it for at least a thousand hours.” And I recently saw a study in a
management newsletter that confirmed that; they said 800 hours.
And then he says to become an expert; you have to write for five thousand
hours! Most of the people who are active in the industry and are the top
copywriters do nothing else and they’ve been doing this for a few years…
They’ve already done their hours.
It sounds like a lot… a thousand hours or five thousand. But it’s not… and
that’s what you have to do, there is no shortcut around that.
It’s funny: My wife is convinced that she can learn any handyman skill
around the house by watching one episode of This Old House. She doesn’t
think she needs to do the chore. She thinks she can learn just by watching.
You can’t. You have to do it. Not home repair and not copywriting. So that’s
why I say there is no shortcut.
Dan:
I agree with you.
Bob:
Yeah. You can’t just read the books. You read the books and you
feel like this is great information and this is good… But unless you’re
actually doing it, you really don’t know if you’re getting stronger because the
muscle has not been exercised.
Dan:
I have to admit: when I look at copy I wrote myself years ago, I’m
just embarrassed!
Bob:
I’m sure. They were probably serviceable, then they became
competent, and after all the years you’ve been doing it, now they’ve become
skilled. That’s just practice.
Dan:
I agree with you. Now, Bob, let me just ask you something else,
okay? From your experience, how does writing copy for online marketing
methods different from writing for offline methods?
Bob:
Good question. One of the other speakers at this conference was
John Ford. He has an e-zine on copywriting. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen
The Copywriter’s Roundtable, but it’s very much worth getting.
He takes the position that there’s no difference between online and off-line.
He says the same rules apply. Really what he’s saying is there are some
minor differences, but they’re much more the same than they are different.
And I now infer that he’s correct.
There are some important differences, and I can tell you what some of those
are in a minute and I will. But, most of the rules of offline direct marketing
are the same as for online direct marketing. Which makes sense because, you
know, if you have to write copy a certain way in a certain tone, with certain
content of a certain length, to sell your $99 product offline to someone, why
would that person suddenly not need any of that just because they’re online?
So basically the same stuff that works offline works online.
Now, there are some minor, but import ant, differences. For example, let’s
say you’re converting a sales letter that you wrote, maybe a four-page or an
eight-page sales letter into a landing page or a micro site on the web. The
difference is that I would, on every screen, have a button or a link where you
can click right through to the order form.
And when I’m writing email copy, or a landing page, or a micro site, or an
email marketing message, I always have a link to the transaction page or the
order form right at the top. Like a little burst that says, “Click here for a free
trial.”
It’s because there are some people who, as soon as they open the page,
they’re ready and they’re just going to try it. So if you don’t have that “click
here”… we call it above the fold, when it’s on the first screen you see… if
you don’t have it above the fold or right at the top, you’re going to lose them.
You don’t want to make anybody hunt or search or scroll to find the order
form.
So that’s one key difference.
In an eight-page sales letter offline, sent through the mail, we’re probably just
going to ask for that order once… at the end. When we put the offer online,
whether it’s an email, a web site, or a micro site, we’re going to have the
order link at the top, right at the beginning… and we’re going to ask for that
order at least once every page.
Dan:
Right?
I get it… because people on the Internet want instant satisfaction.
Bob:
That’s right. They’re ready to order. They want to have the freedom
of choice. See, if you’re looking at an offline offer and you decide, “Oh, I
want to order this. I don’t want to read the rest of this letter,” the order form
has already fallen out of the envelope; it’s right on the desk.
Online, you want to avoid having them hunt and search for the order form, so
you want to have that link always available. Very similar to the way that if
you’re a good catalog designer, on every spread of your catalog there’s a tollfree number in a little box. You don’t make anybody hunt and search for it.
Dan:
Good point, good point. Okay… that’s one difference.
Bob:
That’s a major difference. The other difference is functional.
On a direct mail package, we often use short outer envelope teasers, but some
people use long outer envelope teasers. If you say the subject line of an email
marketing message equals the outer envelope teaser on a sales letter or a
direct mail package, you can’t use a long one most email readers cut off the
subject line after about 45 characters.
So that’s another difference. It sounds minor, but it is import ant.
Dan:
Okay. Any others?
Bob:
There are a few other differences. For example, interactivity of
course: The ability to hyperlink from different locations.
If we were sending out an eight-page sales letter to get someone to subscribe
to a stock market newsletter, one of those pages might have the track record.
All the stocks the guy has bought, the days he bought them, the days he sold
them, the percent gains, the per- cent losses.
Online, we can just say “He has a great track record,” and you can click on
the words “track record” and go to another screen that has all the track record
if you’re interested. The beauty is that it doesn’t have to be incorporated into
the main document where it can interrupt the flow.
So online you have that hyperlinks, from content to content. That’s a
difference and a clear advantage.
Dan:
Okay. Anything else?
Bob:
In differences… You know, I did write a book recently called The
Online Copywriter’s Handbook where I gave the differences and similarities
between online and offline, and I think we have most of the major ones.
Obviously, with online… it’s a minor difference… but online has animation
and sound capacities.
I don’t know that those are going to be much use to the serious direct
marketer, because we often find that, although we get excited about
gimmicks, they often turn out not to be that effective. But those are choices
that you have that are less easy with postal or print direct marketing.
And I did get one recently. I don’t know if the email was a success, but I got
an email try- ing to interest me in investing in oil futures or something. And
the email had a picture of one of those oil rigs like you see in the TV show
Dallas, where it goes up and down. And it was moving; it was pumping oil.
That was cool and it did get my attention. I don’t know if that worked for
them, but it’s something you couldn’t do in a print piece.
Dan:
Okay. Now, Bob, there’s a book that I bought from you that I like.
It’s called Become a Recognized Authority in Your Field in Sixty Days or
Less. That’s a good title. Can you elaborate on that and share some of the
wisdom?
Bob:
Basically, when we talk about how to increase response to
marketing, all the techniques we’re talking about work but they’re all made
easier if the company or the marketer is recognized as the leading authority in
the field.
For example, I do a lot of work selling newsletters, and it’s a difficult sell.
You have to work to get an order. But it’s much easier for Louis
Bruckheimer, because he’s so famous.
So I said, what can my clients do, whether they’re publishers, newsletter
editors, writers, consultants, professional speakers, company spokespeople
for manufacturing companies, online people… What can they do to make
themselves recognized experts? Make them- selves famous in their industry
or field?
And so I wrote this book, Become a Recognized Authority in Your Field in
Sixty Days or Less, because I realized it is a process. You can deliberately,
through a simple process, make your- self the guru in your industry or field.
And in fact I originally titled the book Become an Instant Guru, which I like
better as a title, but the publisher chose the one that it has now.
And so the book basically says, “Hey. Direct marketing is great and you can
use that to produce leads and sales, but while you’re doing that, why don’t
you make yourself into a recognized authority or guru? And the more you do
that, the better your response rates will be.”
You see, what makes direct marketing work in a direct mail package or a
promotion are several factors which every successful promotion must have.
And one of them is credibility.
So the more credible the source -- the company, the author, the speaker, the
innovator, the inventor -- the easier it is to sell your product. My book tells
you how to become a recognized authority.
Dan:
And so how can people become instant gurus?
Bob:
There’s an eight-step method in the book, but I’ll sum it up; it’s
very easy. To become an instant guru, selectively disseminate free
information about your topic.
In other words, give talks, hold seminars, give speeches; have a web site,
publish an e-zine, publish an online newsletter; publish a print newsletter,
write articles for trade press, write articles for the newspaper; get the
newspaper to write articles about you, appear on TV, be a guest on talk radio
shows, write books.
I mean, look at all the famous people in any field: Alan Dershowitz in law,
Dr. Ruth Westheimer in sex, Dr. Phil in relationships. Have any of these
people that I mentioned not been on TV, not been on radio, or not written
books?
They all have. So it’s a very standard method. These people selectively
spread information about their niche or topic in various formats and media.
And that’s how you become a guru.
I always say in my talks when I give talks on this subject, I say, “Look at
Oprah. Every show of Oprah is about some issue, like: Men who hate
broccoli and the women who cook it for them. And there’s always five
people on the show: there’s two men who hate broccoli, there’s two women
who force them to eat it, and then there’s the therapist who’s the author of the
book The Broccoli Syndrome.
There’s always an author and she is considered the expert because she wrote
the book. And I can tell you… and this is something that you probably
already know… just because someone wrote a book, it doesn’t mean they
know any more about the topic that you do!
Dan:
Absolutely.
Bob:
People ask me, “What’s an expert?” And I say experts are people
who know more than other people in their field. They’ve got the same
information, but it’s organized and presented better.
There’s a guy, Edward Uhlan, who wrote a book in 1956 called The Rogue of
Publisher’s Row. And he said, “It’s incredible. Simply because a man has
something in print, people think he knows something or has something
important to say.”
And we still give so much credibility to the media!
So why not use that to your advantage? I mean, I tell people who say they to
be a guru, “Here’s your first step: What’s your topic?”
If the topic is leadership… I tell them to take notes. “You’re going to write
Eight Ways to be a Better Leader. You’re going to make it a simple formula.”
Then I tell them they’re going to write it up and get it published in an
industry trade journal or local business magazine.
That’s step one and then they go from there.
Dan:
So writing… a book, articles…
Bob:
Writing a book, sure. Or writing an e-book, having a web site,
having an e-zine… they’re all very important. You can skip one or two of
them but you should really do all of them.
Dan:
Bob:
Doing seminars maybe?
Not maybe. Definitely. You should do seminars; you should give
speeches. You should do public relations. You know, get yourself covered in
the press. Have the media write about you.
Dan:
All right, all right. Well, Bob, how can people find out more about
your products and services?
Bob:
Easily. Anybody who can remember my last name -- Bly -- can
remember my web site: www.bly.com.They can always go to www.bly.com
on the web. There you will find every- thing about me… more than you
would care to know… books, articles, etc. can be downloaded and read free.
I even provide samples of my work. It’s all there free.
Dan:
Okay. Now, Bob, before we close let me ask you just one more
quick question. You have written fifty books. And we just talked a little bit
about how important writing is. But most people cannot write one book.
What are your writing secrets?
Bob:
Writing a book is very easy. People say, “Oh, I can’t write a book.”
And I say, “Okay. Can you write an article?” Nobody ever says no to that.
They say, “Oh, yeah, I can write an article.” So I say, “Okay. Write fifteen
articles then cross out the word ‘article’ on each, call them chapters and
you’ve written a book!”
Anybody can write a book.
It’s very intimidating to say, “I have to write a 300-page book.” But if you
have fifteen chapters, you only have to write fifteen twenty-page articles.
You can do that.
You just organize it into a table of contents, and then write it section-bysection, chapter-by-chapter. I tell people to write a very detailed table of
contents and then break up that one mega-file into fifteen different files, one
for each of the chapters. Label them Chapter 1, Chapter 2…
And then just start filling them in.
Dan:
Maybe a few pages a day… or even just one page a day.
Bob:
Yeah, you’re not going to write the whole thing in a day. But think
about it this way: if the book is 300 pages of manuscript, which is a common
length, and you can write three pages a day, which is not a lot… it’s going to
take you 150 days. That’s less than half a year.
Even if you don’t work every day you can still write a book. So let’s say you
did your two pages every other day. It would take you 300 days, still less than
a year.
And it doesn’t even have to be a regular, bookstore book. You can print it as
a little booklet… a pamphlet… a little monograph… and people will be
impressed. Then when you hand it to them… even if you had it printed at the
local copy shop, nicely at the local Kinko’s… they’ll go, “Oh, you wrote a
book on this!”
People are impressed. I’m not saying it should impress but it does.
Dan:
Thanks Bob. I’m impressed!
Joe Vitale - The Buddha of the Internet
Joe Vitale is an explosive “results only!” marketing consultant. He has helped
over 200 authors and publishers write, publish and promote their books. Joe’s
clients include small presses to large publishing houses, such as Doubleday
Books in New York. He has also helped large companies, from The
American Red Cross to Hermann Children’s Hospital in Houston.
Joe is also the #1 best-selling author of S p i ritual Marketing and The
Biggest Moneymaking Secret in History. He’s also the author of Hypnotic
Marketing, Hypnotic Writing, Hypnotic Selling Tools, and far too many
books to talk about here.
Dan:
Now, Joe, let’s launch right into the questions. Let’s start with
hypnotic writing. Our listeners might be skeptical. Can you really hypnotize
people with words?
Joe:
Well, absolutely. I think the first thing to know is I am a certified
hypnotherapist, and I’ve been doing hypnosis since I was sixteen years old;
so well over thirty years.
I’ve also been writing since I was sixteen years old; so well over thirty years.
I’ve combined both of them. Now, I spoke recently at the National Guild of
Hypnotists, which is the largest convention of hypnotists in the world. There
were 2,000 hypnotists there, and what they wanted me to speak on was
hypnotic writing.
So this is a real experience. It’s a very real effect that you can have on people.
Scientifically speaking, a hypnotic writing experience is what’s called a
“waking trance.” And a waking trance is a trance where your eyes are open.
You’re in a hypnotic state, you’re in a trance, but your eyes are wide open.
You do not close your eyes and so you may not think of it as a trance; but the
best way to compare this is when somebody’s driving for a long-distance, and
they’re looking at the highway for a long time… They usually fog out. They
usually go into a trance. That’s called highway hypnosis.
The same thing happens when you read a really good book and you become
captivated by it, so you don’t see the cat walk across the room, or you don’t
hear somebody knock on the door.
You might not even hear the phone ring unless it’s really loud, because you
are in a state of waking hypnosis: the writing, the reading. The book has
captivated you.
What I’ve done in hypnotic writing is take all of those principles that are in
hypnosis and are in great writing, and combine them to put people into what I
call a buying trance.
So what I’m trying to do is get people, through the power of words, to remain
focused on what I’m trying to say. With the result being they buy what I’ve
been describing.
So, to answer your question, hypnotic writing… Yes, it’s very real. Yes, you
can hypnotize people with just words, and yes: it’s happening all the time.
Dan:
Well, Joe, can you give me some of examples of how to hypnotize
people with words?
Joe:
Yeah. That’s a great question.
Well, how do you do it? You have to do something that is hard to do. I’ve
been talking with friends about this for decades, and I say this is the
underlying secret to any great copywriting, and especially to hypnotic
writing, and that is: get out of your ego and get into their ego.
So, in other words, quit concerning yourself with what you’re trying to say
and concern yourself more with what people want to hear.
Now, that’s really a fundamental principle in copywriting because you want
to focus on the benefits, not on the features… maybe we can talk about that
and clarify it a little bit later.
But the more you focus on what people will get, and what they will
experience, feel, see, touch, hear, and involve all of their senses. The more
you can focus on their ego, the more you will put people into a hypnotic
writing trance.
Now, this is really a matter of telling stories that captivate people. I’m very
well-known for using fiction techniques in my copywriting.
Dan:
Yes.
Joe:
That doesn’t mean that I write fiction; what it means is that I’m
writing nonfiction but I’m using dialogue, or I’m using conflict, or I’m using
character, or I’m even using a little humor to hold attention (which is a
principle of hypnotic writing) to lead people to where I want to go, which
usually is where I call a buying trance. So on the surface that is how to do it.
Dan:
writer?
Okay. Now, Joe, what are the secrets to becoming a hypnotic
Joe:
Well, that’s a great question: What are the secrets of becoming a
hypnotic writer?
Well, I’d say you have to read a tremendous amount. Because you have to
find out what writing is out there; not just copywriting, but writing in
literature, writing in magazines, writing in books.
What writing is out there that holds people’s attention? You want to read a
wide variety of books and material, and then you want to ask yourself, “Why
did it hold my attention?” You want to mentally dissect whatever that writing
was so you can understand how the author put it together to cause the effect
that he or she did.
What I’m suggesting here is the next time you read a novel, for example, and
are moved to tears, or you are moved to laughter, or you are moved to feel
any particular emotion… stop, because you were just put into a hypnotic
trance.
And then ask yourself, “How did that author do it?” Go back and reread that
particular piece of writing. In fact, and here’s a million-dollar tip for the day,
go back and write out, word for word, in your own handwriting, exactly what
you just read.
Because what that will do is train you mind to become conscious of how
hypnotic writing is created.
What I’m suggesting here is that the great writers, whether you look at
Hemingway or Jack London, or Mark Twain… All of those authors
influenced my writing, which is in me today; influenced my style.
When you study any of them you realize they use the same words that are
available to you or I. They use the same alphabet that’s available to you and
I.
Somehow they weaved all of that together in a particular order to cause a
particular effect.
You want to study their writing, you want to be aware of what happened to
you as you were reading it, and then you want to be aware of how they do it.
Copy out their words, their writing word for word, and pay attention to how
they did it, because it will help you the next time you go to do your writing.
So that’s one of the secrets of becoming a hypnotic writer.
I mean, another one is to not be afraid to use some of the tools that are out
there. For example, I just came out with software called The Hypnotic
Writing Wizard, and that is at www.hypnoticwritingwizard.com.
This software is based on my first two best-selling e-books, Hypnotic Writing
and Advanced Hypnotic Writing.
My software was designed so I could use it for me. Meaning, if I could use
this software to write hypnotically then I knew other people who wanted to
be copywriters could use it, too.
So the first customer we wanted to satisfy when we designed the software is
me!
And in that we’ve got templates, we’ve got hypnotic trance inducers; we’ve
got a hypnotic readability formula. If anybody wanted to write a sales letter,
or an ad, or a news release, or an article, or a speech, or a chapter of a book,
they can go to Hypnotic Writing Wizard and boot it up.
I think that’s another secret to becoming a hypnotic writer is don’t be afraid
to use the cheat sheets that are out there, to use the models that are out there,
to use the soft- ware that’s out there. And those are some of my ideas.
Dan:
Okay. Joe, you just talked about recommending to our listeners to
read a lot of books. Any particular books you would recommend to them?
Joe:
Oh, gee, yes. First of all I would say anything by John Caples. I am
a disciple of John Caples. You know who he was, right?
Dan:
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah, most people who are in advertising or copywriting know John Caples
was probably the most powerful copywriter who ever lived, but he also wrote
some classic books on copywriting and advertising.
One of my favorites is simply called Tested Advertising Methods, and it’s
still in print. The revised version of it is in print right now; I would get an
earlier version, which is not hard to find.
You can find them at used bookstores, you can find them at new bookstores,
you can find them on Amazon. You can use an out-of-print book locator
that’s called www.abebooks.com. And you can find used books by John
Caples.
I say read anything by John Caples. I also say read anything by Dan
Kennedy.
Dan Kennedy is another living - John Caples is dead, but Dan Kennedy is a
living copy- writer who’s incredibly powerful. So read anything by Dan
Kennedy.
I’d also read one of my books that’s been in print for years but is a little bit
overlooked; it’s the book I wrote for the American Marketing Association.
That’s called The AMA Complete Guide to Small Business Advertising. You
can get it at Amazon; you can get it at bookstores and so forth.
But The AMA Complete Guide to Small Business Advertising has chapters
in it, for example, on “Thirty Ways to Create a Headline.” That’s pretty
powerful. I still go to that in my textbooks, and my software now too.
But in book form, The AMA Complete Guide to Small Business Advertising,
by me, Joe Vitale, is worth reading.
And anything by John Caples, or anything by Dan Kennedy. I’m also a fan of
Bob Bly; I would say read The Copywriter’s Handbook.
Dan:
I just did an interview with him last week.
Joe:
He is wonderful!
Dan:
Bob is wonderful, yeah.
Joe:
Bob influenced me. He’s been a mentor of mine for well over
twenty years. He’s a great, great guy. So anyway, to answer your question,
those are some books that jumped immediately to mind.
Dan:
Okay. Now, Joe, I understand you have uncovered, or discovered,
The Twenty-One Most Powerful Copywriting Rules of All Time. What are
those twenty-one rules?
Joe:
Well, okay… How much time do you have?
Dan:
We have a lot of time.
Joe:
We have plenty of time, okay. Well, this is something I wrote many
years ago. I probably wrote this in ‘96 or ‘97. And I hadn’t even looked at it
for a while when I noticed that people on my website were interested. When
people go to my main website at www.mrfire.com, they can see the whole list
there.
And it is called The Twenty-One Most Powerful Copy writing Rules of All
Time. And I can go through it fairly quickly if you like.
Dan:
Okay.
Joe:
Well, the first is to know your USP. Now, everybody on the call
should know what a USP is.
Specifically, it’s a one-line statement (that’s your proposition) that explains
or sells how your product or service differs from the competition (that’s the
unique part.)
Another way of looking at this is it’s a unique stance proposition; it’s a
unique story proposition… What you’re looking for is what is unique about
whatever it is you’re try- ing to sell and say it in one, tight line.
You need to know that. That’s the message or the foundation, the underlying
premise, of any copywriting you want to do. So first know your USP.
The second is to use layouts that support your copy. And what I mean by that
is far too many people are being dazzled by different fonts and different
graphics, and different lay- outs, and they forget that that’s not really what
does the selling.
The selling is always going to be - I’ll say virtually always, because there
may be an exception here and there - but virtually always going to be the
words. That’s why hypnotic writing is so priceless and so fundamentally
informative.
If you start using different fonts, what’s going to happen to the reader?
They’re going to be confused by the fonts or dazzled by the fonts and,
speaking in trance terms, they’re going to be brought out of the buying
trance.
You don’t want people to read you sales letters or your websites or your
emails and be dazzled by your graphic footwork. You want them to read it
and be absorbing your message, which is the copy, and get to the bottom of it
and say, “Wow! How do I get this?”
So you want to use layout that doesn’t distract. You want to use layout that
supports copy. I think this is an overlooked principle by most copywriters;
I’m glad I’m mentioning it - it’s #2 on my list.
Number three is to create a riveting and relevant headline. Now, again, I
mentioned in the software, Hypnotic Writing Generator, there is a hypnotic
headline generator there where you can create headlines almost automatically
using that software.
And then my book, The AMA Complete Guide to Small Business
Advertising, I’ve got thirty ways to come up with a headline.
As I’m sure you’re very aware, Daniel, a headline will make or break your
news release or your sales letter, whatever you’re writing.
Because your headline calls out to the prospects you’re looking for, and if
you’ve got a headline that doesn’t seem relevant, or is not riveting, or is not
stopping the crowd that you want to reach, you’ve lost them entirely; they’re
gone! So you want to use a riveting, relevant headline; that’s #3.
Number four is to write simply, directly and in the conversational style of
your prospects. Now, again, this is getting out of your ego and getting into
their ego. If the audience you are writing to uses a particular lingo - you
know, they have a particular corporate language - you want to use that
particular language in communicating to them.
And why? Because you’re trying to communicate with them... If you aren’t
using words from that group you will be taking them out of the buying trance.
You want to keep thinking of them, keep speaking to them using their terms.
So #4 is write simply, directly, and in the conversational style of your
prospects.
Number five is to write of the benefits, not features. One of the key phrases
that I always ask myself, whenever I write something I’ll ask: “So that?” And
what that means is if I write down… I’m trying to think of something on the
fly here. If I write down any- thing, like… What am I trying to say? I could
say that this computer is a 486, or whatever the current model is…. 2.53
Megahertz, for example.
That is just a feature. It doesn’t mean anything to most people. So if I say
“This computer is a 2.56 Megahertz…” I’ll have to then ask my question,
which is “So that?” to lead me to the answer: “This computer is a 2.56
Megahertz so that you get a computer that can do video editing, that can do
photographs, that can download your email or anything off the Internet at
warp speed.”
So what I’m trying to suggest here, #5 is write of benefits, not of features.
A feature generally describes a product, but a benefit generally explains what
a product does for you. So if you ask the question “So that?” after you write
anything in your copy- writing, it should lead you to what people get as a
result of the feature. So that’s #5, write of benefits, not features.
Number six is use emotional appeal. Now, I love this one because I’m very
much an emotional type of writer; I look for the emotion in anything I’m
trying to sell.
One of my inside tips that I don’t tell very many people is that when I’m
going to write a copy piece for anything I look for what is exciting about that
product or service. And what I mean is, I’m looking for the emotion in it.
See, people (and again, Daniel, you would know about this), people buy for
emotional reasons and justify their purchase with logic.
Dan:
Absolutely.
Joe:
Most people focus too much on logic. Now, I think you should do
both. I think you should have logic listed in your sales letter; in other words,
give people reasons why they should buy your product.
But you better describe your product or service in emotional terms using
sensory awareness if you want them to take action.
Another reason I think you should have both is that people will make the
purchase for an emotional reason; you know, they’ll buy it to look good, to
become more popular, because they think it will help their health, because
they think it will help make money.
Some emotional reason will be the button that makes someone buy the
product. But when they go talk to somebody about why they bought it,
they’re going to scramble to come up with logical reasons to tell the other
person. So you need to provide the logical reasons in your copy as well as the
emotional reasons.
And I think this is another thing most copywriters don’t talk about.
So, point #6 for me is use emotional appeal, but I would add a little PS there
and say use logical appeal the customer can use to explain their behavior to
respected pals or loved ones, or whoever they’re going to talk to after they
make the purchase.
Dan:
Okay.
Joe:
Number seven is demolish the five basic objections in your copy.
Now, there are only five reasons that I’m aware of - and, Daniel, if you know
of some other ones, tell me - but there are only five reasons that I’m aware of
why somebody won’t buy what you’re trying to sell them.
You can use all the hypnotic writing you want, you can memorize my
software and all of my books, but if you don’t handle these five basic
objections, you probably won’t make the sale.
So these five objections are: I don’t have enough time; I don’t have enough
money; It won’t work for me; I don’t believe you; I don’t need it. So #7 is
demolish those five objections. You need to either directly or indirectly
answer all of them. So if they say “I don’t have enough time” in their own
mind, you need to focus on how this won’t take them any time, or it will take
a minimum of their time to use your product or service. Or if they say, “I
don’t have enough money,” you better be prepared to say somewhere in your
copy how they can make payments. Or (here’s another inside tip) draw a
comparison.
So if you’re asking them to spend $1,000 on some product or service (you
can make up anything) and they’re thinking, “Boy, I don’t have enough
money,” before you even tell them the price, tell them how valuable it is: that
it’s worth $5,000, or it’s wo rth $10,000, or other places sell it for $15,000.
Draw some sort of comparison so when they see the actual price, they’re not
thinking, “I don’t have enough money.” Instead, they’ll be thinking “Oh,
that’s a deal.”
Same with the other three objections: “It won’t work for me.” Explain that it
will work for them. One thing, a common complaint with software, especially
for me, when some- body comes out with a new piece of software, one of the
first things I think about it is “It’s not going to work for me.” I don’t care if
they say a three-year-old could load it, it’s not going to work for me. So they
have to overcome that objection in their copy in order to get me to part with
my money.
And the other two objections are “I don’t believe you,” so you’ll want to get
testimonials. And the fifth one is “I don’t need it.” And some people might
not need it, but your job is to paint a picture of how they do need it, or how
their life will be better once they have it. So #7 is demolish those five basic
objections within your copy.
Number eight is activate your writing. Too many copywriters write passively,
and what you want to do is turn all passive writing into active writing.
At my website, www.mrfire.com, people read all of these twenty-one tips and
when they get to activate your writing they see some examples.
If you write something like “The meeting is tonight,” that’s passive writing:
that’s dead. If you say “The meeting starts at 7 pm sharp tonight,” that’s more
clear and direct.
If you say “Daniel Lok will begin the meeting at 7pm sharp tonight and we
will discuss copywriting and insider secrets to putting people into hypnotic
trances using writing,” then you’re much more active: you’ve got specifics,
you’ve told them the personality, you’ve told them what they’re going to get,
and you’ve written it in a way that is actually alive. You’ve activated your
writing.
So #8, activate your writing.
Number nine: tell them something they don’t know. This is one of the secrets
from my early book called Seven Lost Secrets of Success, and one of those
seven lost secrets is “reveal the business nobody knows.”
What I’m referring to and suggesting there (it’s explained more in that book,
The Seven Lost Secrets of Success) is that the more you tell, the more you
sell. Long copy usually works better than short copy, as long as the copy
holds interest. The great sin of all copywriting is to be boring.
People read books, they read long copy, they read magazine articles. The
only thing they don’t want to read is something that is not of interest to them.
So tell them something they don’t know: tell them trivia, tell them a
fascinating story.
Tell them something fascinating about your product or service. Maybe talk
about some- body who was interesting who used the product or service.
But the whole point in #9 is tell your readers something they don’t know.
Educate them, fascinate them and inform them.
So number ten: Seduce the reader into continued reading. These are some
more advanced, inside copywriting tips.
What you want to do is once you get the reader started on your sales letter,
your copy, whatever it happens to be, you want to keep them going.
You can keep them going with any number of things: you can use
subheadlines through- out your piece of writing. I love subheadlines; they’re
just miniature headlines. You have the big headline at the top of your piece to
get people reading; you called in your crowd with that headline. And then
subheadlines throughout your writing are little tag headlines that’ll keep
people reading.
Some people will skim your writing and some people will read it word for
word; the sub headline will capture both types of readers. So I like using
questions, I like using unfinished sentences, I like involving statements, I like
using subheads, I like bulleted points. I like quizzes… All of these techniques
are to keep people seduced, to keep them reading, to keep them curious. I
love curiosity; I play on curiosity quite a bit. And unfinished sentences are
one way to do it.
There are some sample sales letters I wrote at www.mrfire.com.Your
listeners can go there and review them later. You’ll come across an
unfinished sentence where I’ll begin a sales letter with something like - and I
don’t know if this is actually one, but it will be something like: “The
strangest thing happened when I felt my knees at PT Barnum’s gravesite…”
And then I’ll go into to tell something completely different, which might be
about my trip to New York when I was going to go and do my research on PT
Barnum. And I won’t fin- ish the story that I began at the top of the page
about what happened at the gravesite until I get to the end of the letter.
Because what I’ve done is snagged them and then held them, because of the
power of curiosity, until they get to the end. Between, I was able to feed them
all the sales copy I want.
Dan:
That’s why I couldn’t stop reading your stuff.
Joe:
That’s one of my hypnotic trance inducers, right there.
Dan:
Yes.
Joe:
It does work. Thank you for mentioning it. So #10 is seduce the
reader into continued reading.
Number eleven: Be specific. So, in other words, don’t say dog; say collie.
Don’t say any- thing vague; be specific. So an example is if you’re going to
write about a dog some- where, you’re going to write about a computer
somewhere… instead of saying dog; say collie.
Instead of saying computer; say Macintosh. Or, you know, the E-Machine or
whatever it happens to be. But #11 is be specific. Give details. That makes
everything you’re writing so much more believable. It brings it to life and it
increases credibility. So be specific, give details: that’s #11.
Number twelve: Overwhelm with testimonials. Now, I am a major fan of
testimonials.
In legal terms there is something called a preponderance of truth.A
preponderance of truth...What that means is you’ve hauled in so much
evidence to prove your case that it’s almost a done deal, just because of the
evidence, the preponderance of truth.
I have sent out sales letters that were nothing but testimonials. In other words,
I’d begin it with something like: “Dear Daniel, Instead of telling you about
my latest book, let me let these people tell you about it themselves.”
And then there’ll be fourteen testimonials. And then at the end it will say
“Daniel, if you’d like to get the book it’s at Amazon right now.”
So I would let the testimonials do all the selling.
Now, of course, you want good testimonials; that means the more specific,
the more convincing, the more real, the more benefit-oriented the testimonial,
the better the testimonial is. But, the reality is a good testimonial simply has
to be an honest statement from a real person. It doesn’t have to live up to all
the rules of copy or all the rules of good grammar. It just has to be real from
real people.
So I like to overwhelm people with testimonials. Testimonials are incredibly
persuasive, and of course it gets over at least one of the objections people
have when they say they don’t trust you, don’t believe you. So #12:
overwhelm with testimonials.
Number thirteen… This should be obvious to anyone who knows anything
about copy- writing. You want to remove the risk. You want to give a
guarantee, and that guarantee should be what’s called a risk-reversal
guarantee, where you take the risk off the potential customer and you put it
on yourself.
Now, a good example of a guarantee is one I used for my book that I
mentioned earlier, The Seven Lost Secrets of Success. We put an actual
guarantee in a box on the back of that book, and that guarantee helped the
book sell phenomenally well.
The book went through… it’s still in print. It’s part of my Nightingale/Conan
package. When people buy The Power of Outrageous Marketing I fixed it up
with Nightingale/Conan so they get The Seven Lost Secrets of Success as
part of that package.
So the book is still in print. It’s gone through, I think, eleven editions. One
person so loved the book that he bought 19,500 copies of it.
Dan:
Wow.
Joe:
Yeah, that’s pretty amazing. And on the back of the book is the
guarantee, which leads to all those successes I just mentioned. The guarantee
says “Use these seven principles for six months. If you’re out of work, you’ll
find a job. If you’re employed, you’ll get a raise. If you’re in business, you’ll
see a whopping 25% jump in revenues, or return this book with your receipt
and receive a full cash refund.”
Now, in all the years the book has been in print, and I think it came out in ‘92
and we’re in 2003 at this moment, nobody has ever asked for a refund.
Dan:
Nobody?
Joe:
Nobody, not one. However, the guarantee increases sales, and that’s
the reason to have a guarantee.
Dan:
Definitely.
Joe:
You want to remove the risk; you want to make it easier for people
to buy. If you give a guarantee it will increase sales and a very tiny
percentage of the people will ever ask for a refund, unless you’re really
coming out with crap, which you should not be doing.
You should never endorse, sell or try to do any sort of hypnotic writing or
copywriting for anything that’s not of value to a particular group of people.
So if it is of value to them, giving a guarantee… Legally, you have to do it
anyway, because people can return it and get their money back whether you
say so or not.
Dan:
Yep.
Joe:
Legally you have to do it. And adding a guarantee will increase the
sales. So number thirteen is add a guarantee, remove the risk.
Number 14: Ask for the order. Now, this might sound obvious, but I have
seen too many copywriters and too much copy that didn’t ask for the order.
I’ve actually read terrific ads, got my attention, got me to read the whole
thing. I got to the end and said, “Where do I get it? How do I buy it? Where is
it?”
There’s some articles on my MrFire site where I criticize a few companies
who did put some ads out for great products that I wanted to know more
about, and I wanted to buy them, and they honestly did not have any way to
order listed in their copy.
So #14 is ask for the order. Tell people that you want them to buy. Tell them
to buy. You know, people want to be lead. This is one of those inside,
psychological tips that not everybody knows. People want to be lead. They
want to be told what to do. Tell them. That’s #14: Ask for the order, tell them
what to do.
Number fifteen: Use magic words. Now, I’m a big fan of this. These words
are in the soft- ware Hypnotic Writing Wizard, and they’re also in my book
on PT Barnum There’s a Customer Born Every Minute.
And I think they’re in my book The AMA Complete Guide to Small Business
Advertising, and they’re on my website at www.mrfire.com.
So 15 is use these magic words, and here they are. The magic words:
Announcing, Astonishing, Exciting, Exclusive, Fantastic, Fascinating, First,
Free, Guaranteed, Incredible, Initial, Improved, Loved, Limited Offer,
Powerful, Phenomenal, Revealing, Revolutionary, Special, Successful, Super,
Time-Sensitive, Unique, Urgent, Wonderful, You, Breakthrough,
Introducing, New, and How to…
These are all tried-and-true words that throughout our modern history have
been used to activate people’s buying signal. You can almost create a
headline for anything just by weaving these words together. For example:
Daniel, mention any product, anything.
Dan:
E-book.
Joe:
An e-book?
Dan:
Yeah, an Internet marketing e-book.
Joe:
A marketing e-book: “Announcing: Astonishing, Exciting new EBook... an Exclusive, Revolutionary Product for You. Breakthrough
Information. Introducing this New How-To Product Right Now.”
Dan:
Ooh.
Joe:
Now, it sounds great. I said nothing. I said nothing from a factual
level, except maybe the e-book part.
All I did was pull out these magic words and sew them together, and I did it
instantly; I didn’t even think about it.
So you want to use these words and apply them to the facts. If you sew or
match these words to the facts you’re trying to sell, you’ll come off with
hypnotic writing, a hypnotic headline or hypnotic copy almost without
trouble, without effort. So #15 is use the magic words; they’ll make your job
easier.
Number sixteen… This is another inside tip and it’s one John Caples talks
about, and that is get excited. Get pumped up.
Show your excitement for your product.
If you aren’t pumped up about the product, ask why not? Enthusiasm is
contagious; enthusiasm sells.
This goes back to something I said earlier, when I said I look for the
excitement in any product or service I want to push.
So I want to find that excitement and sincerely be excited myself so I can
communicate that excitement in my writing. So #16 is get excited. Get
excited and get pumped up.
Number seventeen is rewrite and test ruthlessly. A change of one word can
increase response 250%. Most copy isn’t written in one day.
You have to write, rewrite, test, rewrite, test, rewrite, test again. Keep asking
yourself “Would I but this product, and have I said everything to make the
sale?”
So I think that’s a real key there, that there’s actually no great writing. What
there is, is great rewriting. That’s actually a quote; I think it was from
Hemingway. But there’s no great writing; what there is, is great rewriting. So
#17 is a reminder: Rewrite your words, rewrite your copy. Do not settle, and
then test what you’ve rewritten.
Number eighteen: State a believable deadline. Most people won’t take any
action unless there’s a sound reason to do so. Deadlines help, as long as your
deadline sounds credible.
What I mean by that is, you’ve got to give people a solid reason they need to
act now. If you say something like, “Oh, we’re having a fire sale,” well,
that’s the most overused reason in history. Everybody and his brother have
heard, “We’re having a fire sale, come and buy our furniture.” Or, “We’re
going out of business; come and buy our product.” We don’t believe it
anymore.
A couple of years ago, it might be three years ago at this point, I wrote a sales
letter because I wanted to drum up a lot of money really quick because I was
going through a divorce and moving, and buying a new house and I was
going to be going through lots of expenses.
And I told people that was the reason I was selling my services at a lower,
discounted price, and that’s why I needed them to act right now. I was going
through a divorce and I needed to move… I needed the money.
Well, that sales letter pulled fantastically, and one reason is everyone thought
this was a solid reason: “Joe needs our help. Not only is he giving a great deal
but he needs it by…” whatever date I gave, Friday, by the end of the week.
Dan:
And they acted.
Joe:
Whatever reason was believable. So #18 is state a believable
deadline to encourage people to take action.
Number nineteen is instantaneous satisfaction. Everything should be nearly
instantaneous because people want instantaneous gratification. Give toll-free
numbers, give fax numbers, give your email, give your website.
Have all of them active so if they want to send an email to you they can just
click on it or call. Or if it’s a toll-free number they can just pick up the phone
and call.
But make it easy for people to get the product or service. People today want
things now. Now, this is easy with an e-book, and I have lots of e-books out
there, so when people buy it within minutes they have the downloading
instructions.
Offline, you want people to get their gratification as quickly as possible, so
offer FedEx shipping. I’m a big fan of shipping things by three-day FedEx,
which doesn’t cost very much money. It’s a little more than priority mail, and
it takes three days to get there, but when it does arrive, oh, what a nice first
impression: Federal Express brought the package.
So satisfy people as instantaneously as you can is #19. Number twenty is
sincerity sells.
I love sincerity. The only thing that I enjoy, the only things that I sell, the
only things I give testimonials for, the only interviews I grant are the ones I
sincerely believe will make a difference to people. And sincerity is noticed by
other people… sincerity sells.
Number twenty-one: Copy your copy from the best. This goes back to what
we mentioned earlier, which is when you come across great writing, write it
out in your own hand word for word so you copy from the best.
Dan:
writing.
You program your mind to understand the rhythm of hypnotic
Joe:
And read books by Bob Bly and Joe Vitale and John Caples and
Dan Kennedy. But also read some of the greats.
I mean, Jack London and his book Martin Mead, and his book, The Sea Wolf,
influenced me tremendously.
And Mark Twain influenced me, Earnest Hemingway, and I was influenced
by William Sir Williams. Read these writers and read other ones that appeal
to you, because you want to copy your copy from the best. And, of course,
read great copywriting.
Read some of the collections of letters that are out there, that are already
proven successful, to understand what made them tick. So there you go:
Twenty-one suggestions or principles or rules for writing great copy.
Dan:
Great. Joe, now we have twenty-one rules. Do you have any advice
on how to make copy more compelling?
Joe:
Well, probably. One of the things I do with my copy once I’ve
written it… And again, I’ll keep all these things in mind; I’ll use the
Hypnotic Writing Wizard software, and I’ll resort to my own books.
I’ll go and look at The AMA Complete Guide to Small Business Advertising
to remind myself of all the principles of writing. But once I’ve written
something, I’ll go back and use a seven-step checklist.
Dan:
Okay.
Joe:
And this checklist is really from John Caples. It’s not mine. I like to
promote it and I wish it was mine, but John Caples, the great god of
copywriting, wrote this checklist.
And the very first thing he does is look and see did he create an appropriate,
an attention getting headline? And this goes back to if we don’t have a
headline that’s going to make a difference, that’s going to pull in the right
audience, that everything we say under it is for nothing because no one is
ever going to see it.
So the very first test is did you create an appropriate, attention-getting
headline?
Number two… Now, this is another thing most copywriters don’t pay any
attention to because copywriters are so focused on words. But an appropriate
image can help bring attention to your copy.
So #2 in the Caples’ checklist is do you have an appropriate image? Do you
have some- body using your product or service that you’re trying to describe,
or do you show the product or service in action?
Or do you show a smiling person that’s relevant to the target audience,
somebody the target audience can relate to, to help pull in attention for your
copy.
Again, copywriters don’t pay attention to images very much and they need to,
at least for a relevancy factor. So #2 is, is there an appropriate image?
Number three is, is the copy in the sales piece focused on benefits? Now,
again, we talked about the difference between features and benefits. The
feature is just the item description itself; the benefit is what does the item do
for you? So, is the copy focused on benefits?
Number four is are you using subheads to hold attention? You should have
subheadlines throughout the copy to keep people reading. Number five is
have you proved that this is a bargain by pointing out the guarantee, by
drawing a comparison for the price, by giving testimonials?
So #5 is you have to prove this is a deal; this is a bargain and people aren’t
going to be gypped.
Number six is have you made it easy to act? Have you given a phone number,
fax number, email, website? And have you made it easy to act?
Number seven: Have you given a solid reason to act now? Have you give a
deadline with a good reason to get people to take action? So those are the
seven things I would do to improve copy and to check copy.
Dan:
Great. Now, Joe, one of the most powerful copywriting strategies
I’ve seen you use over and over again is storytelling. What are some of the
ways to craft hypnotic stories?
Joe:
The easiest way is to tell an honest-to-God true story; something
that actually happened.
Now, I have a quick example of this.
When I wrote my #1 Bestseller Spiritual Marketing, which I had written for
my sister, I sent her a copy of the printed book. And she wrote me back a
snail mail letter that said, “I received your book. I loved it. I was so
impressed and inspired that I went out and bought a new car.”
And my sister and I tease each other quite a bit so I didn’t believe her. I
thought, “Yeah, she’s just yanking my chain. She just read the book and
didn’t do anything different. She’s just making fun of me.”
But then, in the envelope was a picture of her new car. And I thought, “Oh
my God; the book worked!”
Spiritual Marketing is about a five-step formula for increasing wealth. I wrote
it to help her because she had been on welfare at one point and really
struggling with three kids and so forth, and being out of work and her
husband out of work… the whole, sad story.
And here she read Spiritual Marketing and went out and bought a new car! I
was so moved I was nearly in tears, and I jumped up and went to my
computer, and wrote a story that began “I was nearly in tears…”
And that article, that sales letter is on my website at www.mrfire.com.
I sent that sales letter out and all I did was tell the story I just told you. It
began with “I was nearly in tears…” and you had to open it up, you had to
read the email to find out if it was tears of laughter, tears of pain.
You know, why were there tears in my eye? So I was captivating them with
an unfinished sentence, and then I told them the true story of my sister
writing me, her getting a car, how I felt.
And then I ended it with a P.S. saying “And by the way, if you want to get
my book Spiritual Marketing, it’s at www.amazon.com
That story, that letter became one of the most talked about sales letters I
wrote that year, and, in fact, some people wrote me and said, “My God, you
put me into a hypnotic trance. I read your piece and went right to Amazon
and bought the book,” even though I never directly said ‘Go buy the book.” I
just said ‘If you want it, it’s over here.”
Dan:
Joe, I’m that person.
Joe:
You got the letter?
Dan:
Yeah, I read it, I think, five times and I bought your book.
Joe:
Oh, what a great testimonial! Especially to have it be a surprise. I
didn’t know you were one of those; I didn’t know you were going to say that.
So that’s great, Daniel. Thank you very much.
So I find that telling a true story that’s based in sincerity, which is one of our
twenty-one principles, is easier for most people to write. So if I have to write
copy or if you have to write copy for something, I ask for all the
documentation.
Whatever it is, whether it’s a product or service, a car or a software product, I
don’t care what it is… I want to see everything. I want to see all the literature
and I want to see the letters from people who have already used it because
I’m looking for a story.
I’m looking for somebody who had conflict, somebody who said, “I didn’t
believe this would work, but then I used it, this is what happened and now
I’m a believer.”
I’m looking for dialogue. If I can talk to somebody on the phone and they can
tell me their story, then I can put it into dialogue form in my copywriting.
And dialogue is one of those fiction techniques that keeps people reading.
I like to use dialogue in my copy whenever I can or as much as I can, because
it brings my copywriting to life. A conflict, dialogue, a true story, sincerity…
those are all principles of how to write hypnotic stories.
Dan:
Great. Now, Joe, I’m going to ask you to do me a favor in here,
okay? I know you charge $25,000 to create a guaranteed outcome marketing
plan for people. You might get mad at this, but I have to ask you this
question. Talk to me about guaranteed outcome marketing.
Joe:
Wow. Okay. First, I’ve raised the price. I now charge $50,000.
Dan:
$50,000!
Joe:
Yes. It’s listed on my website so I’m not making it up. If people
look under fees they’ll see $50,000 for me to create a marketing strategy for
them.
The second part I want to say is that in my e-book called Hypnotic Marketing
I completely explain this three-step formula. I’m going to tell you what the
formula is right now, but we won’t have enough time to flush it out.
There are three steps to creating a guaranteed outcome marketing strategy,
and again, it’s all explained in my e-book Hypnotic Marketing at
www.hypnoticmarketing.com.
The very first is to use offline publicity to drive people to a website (that’s
number two) where you want them to sign up to receive emails from you
where you can sell them (which is number three). I mean, it sounds so
simplistic to say it this way, but the first step is get offline publicity.
Use the media to drive traffic.
#2, drive that traffic to a website. A website is usually best if it’s information
based. So you somehow or other create a news worthy event, or you’re
offering something for free so you can tell the media about it - a free special
report or something, for example.
And when you tell the offline media about it they tell their readers, which
sends people to #2 your website, where they can get the information. But at
the website there needs to be a sign-up form so they can sign up for your
email list, because #3 in the outcome guaranteed marketing formula is to send
these people follow-up sales letters.
So that’s it. It’s incredibly powerful because most people either do just
offline publicity, or just online marketing. They’re not doing an integration.
And I am finding that the real key to success online and off is to do both; do
integrated marketing. So my copywriting goes offline and online, and again,
for guaranteed outcome marketing I want to use the press. PT Barnum was
one of my heroes, and he said the vast majority of his wealth came with the
help of the newspapers.
So I want to use radio, television and print to drive people to my website and
from there to get them onto my email list; and from there we’ll be sending
them a strong hypnotic writing copy to get them to buy, buy, buy. That’s it in
a nutshell.
Dan:
Okay. Now, Joe, you have also written a book called The Greatest
Money Making Secret in History. What is the greatest moneymaking secret
in history?
Joe:
Well, if I just tell you what it is it’s going to seem so simple. But I
wrote a whole book on the subject.
I love the title; you know I’m a copywriter, so The Greatest Money Making
Secret in History… I smile every time I say the title of the book. I could have
wrote the title of the book and just said Tithing or Giving or The Power of
Helping Others…
Dan:
But you wouldn’t sell any of them.
Joe:
Yeah, that’s right, that’s it. None of them would have compelled
you to pull out your wallet. None of them would have sent you to Amazon
where you could have bought it with one click.
I wanted something riveting and I thought about this. The book does give it;
that is the greatest money making secret in history. But I wanted something
juicy; I wanted some- thing irresistible. So I titled this book The Greatest
Money Making Secret in History.
And I practice it. I’m giving this time away to you and your listeners. I’m not
charging anything. This is one of the greatest money making secrets in
history. I’m giving away freely from my time, from my heart, from my
wanting to help you. So many people have helped me so I’m returning the
favor.
And, deep down in my soul I know, in someway, shape or form, this will
come back and benefit me. It’s going to benefit you, it’s going to benefit your
readers and your listeners, and it’s going to circulate around the world and
eventually it will come back to me and benefit me, too.
So the greatest money making secret in history is to give with no thought of
return, but with an expectation that in some way you’ll be enriched down the
road.
Dan:
Great. Now, Joe, let me just shift gears a bit. Let’s talk about
Internet marketing. Can you share with our listeners some of the most
effective online marketing strategies you’ve ever used?
Joe:
Well, I’ve been online since before the Internet. I was online with
the bulletin board systems back in ‘90,‘91, ‘92… somewhere in there. Then,
of course, the Internet opened up, and I started out as an Internet skeptic.
I didn’t think you could make any money on the Internet. I was writing a
column for DBA Magazine, a business magazine in Houston many years ago,
and the Internet was becoming the buzz.
Everyone was talking about it. I was close to NASA, and NASA invited me
to come down to their offices and have a tour of the Internet.
So I drove down to NASA, went into this big room that had an average-sized
computer in there with an average-sized monitor, and on the monitor was this
picture of the globe.
And they proudly said, “This is planet Earth, and would you look at this?
Over the Internet, which is what we’re doing now, we can see the weather at
any place on the planet.”
I almost laughed. I thought, “Who cares? Who cares? If I want to know the
weather I look out the window. I don’t want to know what the weather is in
Africa until I’m going to Africa. Then when I’m there I’ll find out what the
weather is.”
It did not impress me at all. I wrote my article saying “You cannot make
money on the Internet. Maybe a few people will, but for the most part, it’s a
means for information exchange only.”
Well, as I wrote those articles and as I got on the Internet and I was getting
on bulletin boards, and I’d get in user groups, and I would state everything
that I was finding.
I would state, “I don’t see people making money on the Internet.” People
would write to me and say, “Hey, I like the way you think. What do you
charge to write a copywriting letter?”
And I thought, “Oh, no. I’m now making money on the Internet.” Because I
was on the Internet saying you couldn’t make money on the Internet, I was
developing relationships on the Internet and people were coming to me and
buying my services.
So it was a wake-up call. I said, “Okay, you can make money on the Internet
but you have to play the game a little differently.”
So instead of trying to directly sell people, I had to just make a presence and
be very information oriented.
I had to ask questions and answer questions, and let people see me. So when I
put up my first website - it’s still up, www.mrfire.com - it was simply a
personality-driven but information source for principles on copywriting. And
I thought maybe people would go and look at it.
Well, I never expected the stampede that goes to it every single day looking
for information on marketing.
So the very first tip for doing business online is to be information-oriented.
Give people what they’re looking for: Information.
I’ve also found viral marketing to be very powerful. Viral marketing, one of
the first attempts I did at that was I wrote one of the first books on Internet
marketing (once I figured out you could make money on the Internet) called
Cyber Writing: How to Promote your Product or Service Online Without
Being Flamed. And the book’s out of print right now, but it was one of my
first bestsellers on Amazon when it first came out.
And I met this comedy writer who wrote comedy for Jay Leno. This comedy
writer had heard me speak.
We hit it off and I gave him a copy of Cyber Writing, and on his own he
wrote this funny little top-ten list. It was called Top Ten Reasons to Read
Cyber Writing. And he wrote it in the David Letterman style of top ten: you
know, they were all funny. Each one of the statements was humorous. He
wrote it, he gave it to me, and I sent it out over the Internet.
Well, overnight that little humorous Top Ten Reasons to Buy Cyber Writing,
written by this comedy writer was circulated around the globe. It helped my
Cyber Writing book become a bestseller on Amazon.
I didn’t do anything! I mean the guy wrote this comedy, I sent it out; because
people liked jokes they participated in distributing it. So it became a viral
campaign. So that’s another way to do business online; implement the viral
market.
And of course I’ve had great success with e-books. I’m now a big fan of ebooks. Mark Joyner, formerly of Aesop Marketing came out with e-books
several years ago.
He was one of the first to promote e-books in a big way. And he had written
to me for two years saying, “Joe, I really like your work. I like you, I like
your presence, I like your Cyber Marketing book. Give me something I can
turn into an e-book. It could be an old book, it could be a new book; just give
me something and I’ll sell it.” Well I was so stuck in the mindset that books
have to look like books… I love books. I’m a book-aholic. I buy them and
buy them, read them, write them, review them and collect them.
I’m sitting in a library of books all around me. But an e-book doesn’t look
like a book. It’s invisible. It’s not printed, you don’t hold it. So I told Mark,
“I don’t believe anybody will buy e-books.” That shows you how smart I am.
I’m not much of a futurist here.
Finally, after two years of polite persistence I dusted off an old book that I
used to sell in the back of the room when I gave talks in Houston. And I gave
it to Mark Joyner and said, “Here. Look, if you can sell it, have fun.”
He wrote a sales letter for the book that was so good it made me want to buy
my own book. He put up the sales letter at www.hypnoticwriting.com. It’s
still there now; your listeners can go see it at www.hypnoticwriting.com. And
I think he sold it for $30.
Overnight about 600 people bought it. That’s 600 books at $30 a book that
we didn’t print, we didn’t stock, we didn’t ship, we didn’t fulfill… we didn’t
do anything.
Dan:
Now you’re a believer, right?
Joe:
I was a believer instantly. I wrote Mark and said, “Uh, Mark? What
else do you want?” And I think he has now distributed about eleven e-books
of mine at this point, and of course I have even more e-books than that with
Advanced Hypnotic Writing, Hypnotic Marketing, Hypnotic Writing,
Hypnotic Writer’s Swipe File, Hypnotic Selling Stories… I mean, jeez! The
list goes… I don’t even know how many I have until I go and look myself.
So those are some things on Internet marketing. Give information, use viral
marketing, use e-books. I mean, all of them are powerful.
Dan:
Now, Joe, www.mrfire.com is your portal site. It has a ton of
information. But you also have a ton of mini-websites, which just have long
sales letters on there. There’s no content right?
Joe:
Right.
Dan:
Our listeners are thinking, “Well, should I have a website that just
sells one product, or should I have a website that…”
Joe:
Oh, good question. What we have found is that websites that are
focused on one product work best.
Dan:
Okay.
Joe:
So if you go to www.hypnoticwriting.com, the only book sold there
is Hypnotic Writing. If you go to www.hypnoticsellingstories.com, the only
book sold there is Hypnotic Selling Stories, and that’s the way it should be.
Dan:
Okay.
Joe:
And www.mrfire.com is not the best example of a great website
because it is personality-driven and it is a portal. You could get lost in it very
easily. And that’s why I have about seventeen or eighteen different websites.
And all of them, except for mrfire.com are one-item-only sites.
Dan:
And they are the ones that are generating the revenues?
Joe:
They are the ones that are generating the revenues, exactly right.
Good observation.
Dan:
Okay. Now, Joe, that’s a lot of good information. Twenty-one most
powerful copywriting rules of all-time, a seven-point checklist, guaranteed
outcome marketing, Internet marke t- ing secrets. How can people get in
touch with you and get a hold of your products?
Joe:
Well, the easiest thing to do is go to www.mrfire.com and my
contact information is there. My direct email is joe@mrfire.com. And just
take it from there. Email would work best.
Dan:
And how can they get a hold of your software, again?
Joe:
Good question. The Hypnotic Writing Wizard at
www.hypnoticwritingwizard.com.
Dan:
Okay, all right. Thanks so much Joe! You’ve given us so many
ideas and so much marketing information. I want to thank you on behalf of
myself and our listeners. It’s been wonderful talking to you.
Joe:
Thank you, Daniel. You asked great questions and I’m glad
everybody enjoyed it.
Dan:
Thank you. Thank you very much, Joe. Bye-bye.
David Garfinkel - The World's
Greatest Copywriting Coach
David Garfinkel is known all over the planet as the world’s greatest
copywriting coach. In fact, all the top copywriters call him confidentially
when they need some advice or a fresh view. David is the copywriter’s
copywriter. He charges $15,000 plus a percentage of sales to write a sales
letter website, and $750 an hour for consulting…simply because his copy and
his advice have made so many people so much money.
David is the author of Killer Copy Tactics: Advertising Headlines that Make
You Rich, and co- author of three other best-selling e-books and two print
books. He’s also co-authoring a new print book about websites that sell like
crazy.
Dan:
David…when it comes to writing copy, many people have trouble
getting started and then it seems like it takes them forever to get it done.
Now, I understand that you have ten steps that will dramatically cut the time
it takes and give people much better copy that will sell a lot more products.
First, let’s talk about why most copy on the web doesn’t work so well to
begin with.
David:
That’s a great question, Dan. Most copy doesn’t work nearly as
well as it should…or could…because it ends on a fuzzy note. You know what
I mean. It doesn’t give people a clear call to action, or it doesn’t feel like a fit
to the prospect. It doesn’t feel right or seem like the copy is talking to the
person.
Or maybe it’s missing some critical pieces that a prospect needs to become a
customer. Or it makes one of the five killer mistakes that most copywriters
and coaches know about, but don’t always talk about.
So what I’m going to do today is explain how to fix these problems so the
copy sings, and you can sing, or hum, or whistle all the way to the bank.
Dan:
Okay, so what is the first step to get started?
David: Well, the first step is to… and this is sort of ironic… the first step is
to define the end action that you want your customer to take, and map it out
in a series of steps.
Now, I know that sounds complicated but it’s really simple. You say, “After
my customer has finished reading all of this copy, what do I want them to
do?” And you spell it out in real clear and simple terms. It might be “Click on
the button to order the product.” It might be “Pick up the phone and call me.”
It might be “Attend our introductory teleseminar.” It might be “Request an
appointment with a consultant.” You have to be clear on what it is.
Once you have done that…once you know that…then you need to think
about all the steps the customer needs to take. And I mean you want to break
it down to the micro level, Dan.
You want to think, “Okay, they have to find a telephone and pick it up and
call a number.” Well, they might not have a telephone near the computer, so,
for instance if you’re doing a website you might want to give them something
they can print out so they can call later. Just create a special form.
You have to think it through from the customer’s end. This is what many
people don’t do. They don’t think about the shopping cart , or they don’t
think about the customer’s buying process. This ends up hurting them.
Once you have all the steps of what the customer does in the best of all
possible worlds, you draw it out on a flowchart. A flowchart can just be a
series of boxes with
words -- you don’t have to draw pictures -- you can just write, “Pick up
phone,” “Call this number” -- so you have a real clear picture in your mind of
what the customer’s sup- posed to do.
That’s the first step. Define the end action you want your customer to take,
and map it out on a flowchart in a series of steps.
Dan:
Great. Once you know what action you want your customer to take,
then what?
David:
Okay, here’s another point. Much copywriting gets into subtle
aspects of psychology. Let’s say if you’re an expert on gardening, you know
all kinds of things, technical things about soil and seeds, and plants and rain
and seasons. But one of the problems is that your customer doesn’t.
So you have to mentally step backwards to before you became an expert. And
look at things the way your customer is from where they are.
In the gardening industry, there’s a great example in advertising by Scott’s
Lawn Care. According to the president, “Scott’s customers don’t buy our
grass seed…they buy lawns.” Realistically speaking Scott doesn’t sell lawns;
they sell grass seed. But again, you have to look at things the way the
customer’s looking at it.
And so there are a couple of simple things you can do that will get you clear
and help you start your copy in the right place. We’re on our second step
here, but there are a couple of actions within the second step.
One step you want to take is write down what your customer would say about
whatever problem they have or whatever wish they have. Let’s say that
you’re selling a system to help people get traffic to their websites. You write
down in the customer’s words what the customer would say about their
problem or need.
For example: “I want to get more qualified traffic to my website but I don’t
know how to get them there at a price that keeps my business profitable.”
Let me say it again, Dan, it’s import ant. You express their problem in their
words.
Then the second action is to translate what you’re offering them into a
solution for their problem or a pathway for their wish. This is just getting
your head clear…you’d write down, “This is a way you can get affordable or
free qualified traffic to your website so you can run a much more profitable
business.”
Dan:
Okay. So what do you do after you know where your customer is?
David: After you know where your customer is, then you talk about what
you’re selling in terms of the customer’s problem and your solution. Now
you would say, “Of course. Why wouldn’t you?”
I’ll tell you why.
Many people talk about their process or their content. They’re so wrapped up
in what they’re doing that they start talking about features. They start talking
about the technical details of their process and nobody cares. What the
customer cares about is “How are you going to solve my problem?”
So this third step is you define your product or service in terms of the result
that you’re going to provide for your customer. And, by the way, if you don’t
provide the customer with a result, then you may want to rework your offer.
So, let’s say that you have a tricky or a fancy combination of Google
Adwords and search engine optimization and easy advertising that gets much
traffic. Don’t tell them that at this point…what you do is you talk about the
customer’s problem.
Remember the customer’s problem in the example: “I want to get more
qualified traffic to my website”? You simply state all of that tricky
complicated stuff I just mentioned as a simple solution to their problem.
Instead of saying: “Google Adwords and search engine optimization and
blah, blah, blah” and gobbledygook…you say “How to get cheap or free
high-quality traffic to your website.”
See, at this point in the writing, you don’t worry about your process or how
you deliver it because your customer doesn’t even care. They’re not going to
care what you do until they know what’s in it for them. And they will decide
there is something in it for them when you can really, clearly state the result
that you’re going to provide for them.
Now, notice one thing: You’re not writing any copy yet. This is all mental
preparation that will make your copy almost write itself. It’s going to happen
so quickly once you get clear on this stuff up-front.
Dan:
That sounds good, David. Now what?
David:
Step four is to make a list of the reasons someone should do
business with you as opposed to anybody else. Dan, this may amaze you
because I can tell from talking to you that you live in the real world, but I’ve
had clients that don’t believe in competition. They don’t believe that they
have any competition.
It’s like believing that gravity doesn’t exist or the sun doesn’t rise in the
morning and set at night. And, of course, from a customer’s point of view,
they may not see competi- tion…but they might see many different choices.
So, step four is to make a list of the reasons someone should do business with
you as opposed to anyone else. And the reasons need to be self-serving for
the customer…the benefits they’re going to get or something about you that
makes you more desirable to do business with: your experience, the number
of other people you’ve helped, the results that you’ve gotten.
Also, you can find other reasons in testimonials you can get from users, from
experts, from celebrities and from reviewers in the media. Each one of those
can be a stand-alone reason by itself.
Dan:
Okay. David, can you give us a simple template to put all of this
together?
David:
You know, in fact I can, and I’ve got an eight-point template.
Here’s what I’ll do: I’ll just read the eight points real quickly and then I’ll go
into them in detail, and then I’ll review them because there’s a lot of
information in here.
Point one: Headline.
Point two: Opening statement.
Point three: Introduce yourself.
Point four: Tell them more about what you’re going to do for your customer.
Point five: Give them reasons they should buy from you.
Point six: Give them reassurance. Point seven: Give them a call to action.
Point eight: Give them a P.S.
Now, you’ll notice that many of the steps we’ve taken in the first four steps
make filling in this template easy. So, let me go over it in detail now.
Point one is a headline. You describe the solution to their problem or the
fulfillment to their need that you’re going to provide. That’s why it’s
important to focus on the result, the solution as opposed to your process and
features.
I’m going to give you three fill-in-the-blank phrases that will much create
instant head- lines. The first one would be “How to…” So, let’s say that
you’re providing home remodeling: “How to get your home remodeled more
quickly with higher quality at less cost.” Well, if I’m going to get my home
remodeled I’m going to be interested in that.
Another headline, is “Now you can finally…” Like: “Now you can finally get
your home remodeled quickly, affordably and at the highest quality.”
A third headline, fill-in-the-blank formula that’s real easy is “Announcing
the…” “Announcing the new way to get your home remodeled.” You see
how I’m using the same formula for each one, and each one sounds good and
different.
I’ll make an important point, Dan: The headline needs to strike a chord, with
your customers…where they are. It needs to sound natural, and they need to
go, “Oh, yeah, I’d be interested in that.”
So, point one, the headline.
Point two: Opening statement. Start where they are and tell them what’s
ahead. And I’ll give you three fill-in-the-blanks for that, okay? The first one
is “If you, then…” “If you need to get more traffic to your website, then I
have some important news for you.” Or,“…then this may be the most
important letter that you read.”
Then there’s a second fill-in-the-blank: “Are you tired of…? Well I have
some good news for you.” “Are you tired of living in a home that looks
shabby on the outside? Well, I have some good news for you.”
The third fill-in-the-blank…”Are you finally ready to…? Then please read
this letter very carefully.” “Are you ready to get as much traffic as you can
handle on your website? Then please read this letter very carefully.”
Do you see how powerful these are, Dan?
Okay, so the third point in the template is introduce yourself and credentialize
yourself the best way you can…list the reasons you are qualified to present
this information.
Let’s say I’m doing a new course on copywriting. Here’s the fill-in-theblank: “My name is…and…” The first part is your name and the second part
is your credentials. So I could say, “My name is David Garfinkel and I have
helped people make millions of dollars with a simple sales letter.”
Okay, that’s the third part: Introduce yourself and credentialize yourself the
best that you can. “My name is …and …”
Point four: Tell them more about what you’re going to do for them with your
service or your product, all from their view. So instead of saying, “I’m going
to show you…” “I can do this…” “I’m going to do this,” what you say is:
“You will learn…” “You get…” “You benefit…” and these are all the results
and the advantages that people will get from the product.
Number five: Give them reasons they should buy from you. See, once they
feel excited about buying something, then they start to get skeptical. The
skeptical mind kicks in. It happens every time. And so, what you can do to
fix that is give them logical reasons to justify the need that they’re feeling,
and the skepticism will ebb and melt away eventually.
There are three different reasons…three types of reasons. You can use
testimonials, you can use your unique benefits -- what sets you apart from
your competition -- and you can use your own track record, including case
studies. The more you can show that you’ve helped other people that your
customer can identify with…in other words, the more you can show that
you’ve helped people like themselves…the more likely it is the prospects
reading your copy will buy.
Number six is to give them reassurance. Now reassurance usually means a
guarantee.
They’re going to worry about, “What if something goes wrong?” So tell
them, “If some- thing goes wrong, you call our service department 24/7 and
we will return your call within an hour,” or “We’ll be able to solve it right on
the spot,” or “We have techs standing by,” or “We will come to your place of
business,” or “If you don’t like this e-book you can return it.”…all of those
kinds of reassuring things.
It’s important because once you’ve gotten them excited…shown them the
benefits…set yourself apart…and given them reasons they should buy from
you…Then if they imagine none of that’s true, then what? So that’s when
you give them reassurance, number six.
Number seven is your call to action. Remember in the very first step when
you did the flowchart and you thought through and wrote out exactly what
action you want the person to take…Remember that? Okay, at this point
you’re going to appreciate that you’ve done all that thinking and mapping
because it’s going to be much stronger and much clearer on your call to
action than it will be, than it is on most people’s copy.
You may have noticed, much copy has a weak close. If you know what
actions you want them to take, then you can put all your energy into getting
them excited and urging them and encouraging them to buy because you
know exactly what you have to tell them to do.
And then, if it’s a letter and you say, “Sincerely…” and your name, then
there’s usually a postscript.
Now, what does the P.S. do? Well, the P.S. gives them an extra reason to read
the letter again. It could also tell them why what you’re talking about in the
letter is the solution to their problem. Or you could tell them why this is
going to help them achieve a goal they haven’t been able to achieve before.
But the main thing about the P.S. is you want to get them interested enough
in what you’re talking about to read your whole letter. Because many people
-- whether it’s on the web…or in print…an ad in the paper…or whatever -- if
there’s much copy they’ll read the headline, they’ll read the opening
sentence, and they’ll skim down to the bot- tom, look for who it’s from and
then they’ll read the P.S.
So the major purpose of the P.S. is to get them back into your sales pitch and
the copy itself.
Now, I promised you I’d review those steps so I’ll do it right now. The eight
points in the template is Point One: Headline. Two: Opening statement.
Three: Introduce yourself.
Four: Tell them more about what you’re going to do for your customer. Five:
Give them reasons they should buy from you. Six: Reassurance. Point seven:
Call to action.
And eight: the P.S.
Dan:
Thanks, David. That was great. Now what about ways that copy
goes wrong?
David: Well, there are five things that when they happen, can make copy
go wrong. The first one is the people don’t believe you.
You know, if you’ve got something good to sell, you’re going to get excited
about it, and you might even start making some wild claims about your
product. So the wilder your claims the less likely people are to believe you.
Of course, if you can get them to believe a really big claim then you’re going
to make a lot of sales.
The way to fix this is every time you make a point…every time you say “This
is the greatest product ever invented” and every time you say, “Our car
accelerates faster than everyone else’s,” you prove your point with track
record, logic, testimonials and statistics.
This is an exercise you can do. When you’ve written some copy, go through
every sentence and look at it and wear a skeptic’s hat. Ask, “What about this
sentence? Is this too good to be true?” Then prove that it’s true.
The best single way to do this is come up with counterexamples, stories that
show it isn’t too good to be true because it is true. When you have a case
study with specifics, or a testimonial or an independent lab test, or anything
like that, it will go a long way towards fixing this problem where they don’t
believe you.
Then there’s a second problem people have: They don’t feel like you know
them, know who they are; know their situation, their problems. And so it
seems like you’re writing to someone else or to no one in particular. When
the copy doesn’t come across as person- al then that’s a problem.
The way you can fix this problem is to make sure that you’ve surveyed your
customers, and that you’ve talked to them. On the Internet that’s a little
unusual, because customers can be all over the world and you don’t often
“talk” to them. But you can find out how they talk about their problems.
Online surveys work real well, and then use their words and their phrases in
your copy.
See, when you start talking your customers’ language -- instead of your own - you’ll gain massive credibility and acceptance right away. But this means
you have to get outside your own world and into theirs.
That’s the second problem that gets people. The third problem with copy is it
comes across as phony, or superficial, or stilted. In other words, it doesn’t
read as genuine, conversational or natural.
You know what the answer to that one is? It’s so simple; you won’t believe
it. You simply talk the copy out loud. If it doesn’t sound like conversation,
then start from a conversation. In other words, instead of writing it after
you’ve done all your prework and your outline, just talk it out…like a sales
pitch.
Even better, get on the phone and talk to someone else, and record what
you’re saying and transcribe it. When you do that, the words…and phrases…
the sentences and the structure of the sentences…and the flow of the speech
come across much more appealingly, much more persuasive.
I don’t know what it is, Dan, but for some reason most people don’t write the
way they talk. You know. Learning how to write the way you talk, that’s an
acquired skill and you can master it.
I say it’s just a matter of unlearning the formal writing patterns we were
taught in school and getting in touch with the way we talk to people all the
time…and then plugging that language into our copy. When you do that it’s
incredibly powerful and it makes all the difference.
Then the fourth problem is that copy is boring and repetitive. Have you ever
read copy like that?
Dan:
Tons of it.
David: I know! And it makes you want to buy about how much?
Dan:
Zero.
David: Zero, exactly. Here’s how to deal with that. First, got to get people
excited about your copy.
Now, different things get different people excited. Some people feel excited
about all the money they’re going to make. If that’s what it’s going to take,
use that. Some people feel excited because they’re going to be helping other
people. If that’s what it’s going to take, think about that when you’re writing
your copy. Some people feel excited because they’re going to be famous. If
that’s what it takes, use that.
Find out what it takes. Then write it…and then edit, edit, edit. Make sure it’s
still conversational, but take out any words that aren’t necessary, so it reads
more like a telegraph. It reads more like you’re breathless, like you’re really
excited and you’re trying to tell someone something as fast as possible. Not
like you’re slow and miserable and boring.
You know, one of my favorite mentors is David Ogilvy. He’s no longer with
us; he died last year.
Dan:
Yeah, he’s brilliant.
David: Yeah. And you know he wrote a couple of books: Confessions of an
Advertising Man and Ogilvy on Advertising. One of the best things he said is
you can’t bore people into buying. You have to share your excitement with
them and when you do that they will respond with their dollars. So that’s
number four.
The fifth problem is that copy is hard to read and grasp instantly. Have you
ever noticed that? You look at a website and you say, “Umm, what are they
talking about?” You know?
If you’re clear up-front about what you’re offering people, if you’ve done
those first four steps and you’ve done the template…you shouldn’t have this
problem. But sometimes, if you have a really technical way of talking in your
business, you have to learn how to reframe it and put your language in
simpler words.
The best tips I can give to make copy easier to read and easier to grasp
instantly would be to use short words, to use short sentences and do short
paragraphs.
And look for ways to make everything visual and emotional and direct.
Replace abstract ideas with concrete specifics that are going to make sense to
someone who’s never heard of you or your product, or what you do or what’s
in it for them.
Dan, this may surprise you, but I have a client who’s actually a lawyer
trained at Harvard Law School. And a few weeks ago he told me the two
things he learned from me about writing copy -- which I guess he didn’t learn
at Harvard Law! --were to use short words and to make the copy personal…
to use the word “you” in your copy.
This is so important! This is where people miss the boat so often. Remember,
your prospect is not familiar with the stuff that’s old hat to you, so take the
time to explain to them in really down-to-earth terms what you’re saying so
anyone can understand it, no matter how sophisticated, intelligent or
intellectual they are.
People don’t buy from the sophisticated, intelligent, intellectual part of their
brain. They buy from the emotional, visual, physical parts of their brains. So
you write words that appeal to those parts of the brain.
And that’s it. Those are the ten steps that you can use to copy write a lot more
quickly and make it work.
Dan:
That’s great. Now, David, we have ten steps to get copy written fast
right now. And we know how to take out the major problems. But do you
have any advice on how to make copy more compelling?
David: I sure do. The first step is the step many people don’t do…but if
they did, their copy would be a lot better. It’s to tell stories, just tell stories.
You know, I was at a seminar recently, and it was a free seminar and it was
during this recession, and one of the things I thought about and I told my
audience was that I had been to a similar seminar about twelve years ago in
Key West, Florida, held by a copy- writer named Gary Halbert…I’m sure
you’re familiar with “Wild Gary.”
Gary had offered that seminar free, but everyone was asked to write a check
at the seminar…not to Gary, but to a relief fund -- the Red Cross to provide
relief for hurricane victims.
Now I had been on the brink of bankruptcy then and I learned at that seminar
some things that allowed me to fight my way out of a financial pit into a good
place for the rest of my life. And I told people at the seminar I was speaking
at, recalling that other seminar earlier that they should approach the seminar
they were at now the same way.
It changed the audience.
With selling and copy, in my oral copy I think I got them to take the seminar
a little more seriously, and I sold them on learning the information they were
hearing. And I had a woman come up to me, there were tears in her eyes and
she said, “David, I’m so happy you said that because I just filed for
bankruptcy and I felt like my life was over. You’ve given me new hope.”
When you tell stories in your copy it makes a big difference. I’m going to
give you a few examples and some websites you can go to, to see this.
Jim Edwards is an author. He and I co-wrote Book Secrets Exposed and
Immediate Money Immediately together. Jim also has another book called
For Sale by Owner Help. In that book he shows people how they can sell
their home without using a real estate agent and save a bit of money.
The book has two rousing stories in there that are just unbelievable about a
house that a buddy of his had been trying to sell for a year and couldn’t get
moving. Until he used some of the techniques Jim taught in his book and he
had buyers lined up and he sold it for full price. It’s a very, very, very
compelling story.
The book has done extremely well. Jim was using the royalties from the sales
he made on the website with those stories to pay for a mortgage and two car
payments. Just from one e-book…and of course, he has many of them. The
reason I mention it is that he has a couple of great stories on that website.
My most successful e-book website is not for my own product, but for a
client and partner’s product…Stewart Lickman, and the book is called How
to Get Lots of Money for Anything Fast.
Dan:
Sounds good to me!
David: Yeah, it is good. The website is www.getanythingfast.com.When I
was putting the copy together, I asked Stewart, “This is information you
charge people $25,000 a day (not people, but corporations) to present to their
teams. Why in the world are you giving it away for such a modest price?”
And he told me about an automobile accident he had been in.
It was late at night, and he was driving up a freeway. The lane was narrowed
because of construction, he was driving up an off-ramp and he didn’t see
until the last minute there was a parked car, a car stopped. And he slammed
headlong into it. The engine came through the dashboard; he barely got out of
it with his life.
When that happened he realized that he still had some important things to do
and to share with the world, and his work wasn’t over and he’d better get off
the stick and do something about it. And that was what prompted him to take
the work he sold for $25,000 a day in corporate seminars and put it into an
information product on the Internet.
So of course I put Stewart’s story in the copy. I thought it was important.
People needed to know why he’s giving away such valuable information for
such a fraction of the cost.
Dan:
That’s also a “reason why”.
David: It is a reason why. Stories can also be a reason why, but you’re very
clever to figure it out.
Here’s the interesting thing, Dan: you analyzed it, but most people won’t.
And when you’re reading it, you go out of the part of your brain that groups
things.
It’s like if you’re ever with a bunch of little kids and you say, “Let me tell
you a story.” You know how they get really quiet and their eyes open and
their faces light up? Adults are the same way. I mean, they may look a little
more serious because adults don’t want to seem like children, but their minds
work the same way.
So when you tell stories in your copy, especially stories that show the value
of the product…like Jim’s does…or gives the reason the author or the
entrepreneur is providing this…or a reason the customer should buy…That’s
very, very powerful. Most people don’t do it and the ones that do, don’t do it
well.
With stories that really work, the best story is a proof story, a case study. And
I’ll even give you a simple formula for that right now. The case study can be
either be a narrative story, where you’re talking about something that
happened to someone else, or a personal story from you or from someone
else.
But let’s put it as a personal story to start with. You can say, “I had this
problem. I bought Daniel’s collection of copywriting interviews with
copywriting masters and now I have the solution. I used to never know
anything about copywriting, then I bought Dan’s col- lection of interviews
with the world’s top copywriters, and now I have complete confidence and
my copy is making me money.”
You see it’s that formula. “I had this problem and took this action -- which
involves your product or service -- and I have this result.” Very simple
formula, and very powerful if you look at really good testimonials.
Here’s a footnote on that. Testimonials need to be true and you need to have
permission from the people you’re writing about to use them. I know you’re
in Canada, Dan, but in the United States, the FTC has started to crack down
on fraudulent Internet marketing. So you want to really be careful and cross
every “t” and dot every “i” when you’re using stories.
All the stories that I just told you from those web sites are absolutely true and
they’re documented. You want to exercise that same level of caution to stay
out of trouble.
But stories are so powerful. Sometimes when you go to a seminar, when the
speaker is talking and talking, sometimes it’s boring. But when he or she is
telling a story, just like, “Hey, it’s a story”…it’s riveting. No wonder Chicken
Soup for the Soul is one of the best- selling books in history.
Dan:
That’s true. It is just story after story after story. Good point.
David:
Another thing is you can’t argue with a story. I can make an
assertion, I can say: “This seminar, this e-book is really going to help you.”
And you’re going to say, “No it’s not. It’s not even about anything I want to
learn.” But if I tell you a story about the people in the seminar and I can get
you to start imaging how that’s going to benefit you, you’re not going to
argue with your own imagination. See the power of that?
Let me talk about another, second way to make your copy compelling, and
that is to use word pictures that sell. Actually, I’m going to give you two
ways to use word pictures.
The first one is to get someone to imagine having, using, touching or
benefiting from your product. So, for example, I have this book, Advertising
Headlines that Make You Rich. And let me first tell you what the benefits are
and how the book works, and you can see maybe that’s a little bit dry. You
know, a little factual.
I could say it like this: “What I’ve done is I’ve found twenty template
headlines that will work universally and are very easy to adapt to any
business. I show the headline, the original headline in its original form, then I
adapt it for fifteen or twenty businesses, then I have a fill-in-the-blank and I
explain the formula, I explain the psychology of why the formula works.”
Okay, that’s interesting but so what? Now, listen to this copy from the
website www.advertisingheadlinesthatmakeyourich.com:
“Think about it. Why spend countless hours trying to come up with so-so
headlines that may or may not work, when you can imitate the best headlines
on earth that are proven to produce money. What’s more, why even spend
any time modeling the most profitable headlines to suit your product when
you can pick and choose from ready-to-use head- lines written and
customized for you by a master copywriter? What could be easier?”
See the difference? In the first case I explained technically what the product
was. In the second case I put you right in there, in the word picture…and I
put you in the picture of using this product. I told you how easy it was going
to be, and I told you how certain you would feel that you were going to have
headlines that would make money.
That’s the power of using word pictures: to get the person to imagine having,
using, touching or benefiting from your product.
Dan:
And David, if I can just quickly add, I own that product myself, as
well. And one thing I really like about your product is it gives your customer
a system, a template to follow. Because most business people, they’re not like
us. They don’t want to spend years learning this stuff; they just want to get it
done…like a short cut.
You just give us the proven templates, we just copy and paste, change a few
words and that’s it!
David: Thank you, I’ve gotten many comments like that on the product and
I’m really happy it’s helped so may people. And one of the hardest things for
me to learn, Dan, is that most people are more interested in going about their
lives than doing the same things I want to do. They don’t want to spend years
and years and hours and hours and hours learning to write copy. They have
other parts of their business.
Of course, when I stop to think about it, it only makes sense.
So I’ll give you another way to make copy compelling. And that is not to get
people to imaging using it, but to get people to imagine that they have already
used your product and are now enjoying the rewards of using your product.
That’s pretty abstract so let me give you a specific example of that.
Okay, my co-author Jim Edwards, he has another book. I didn’t write this one
with him either; he wrote it with his dad, Alex. The book is called Turn
Words into Traffic and it’s about easy ways to write articles for the Internet,
for other people’s websites.
Now, many people don’t even want to write, so why would they want to
write articles? But check out this copy that Jim wrote: “In fact, just by writing
and distributing free articles on the Internet (something that becomes pretty
easy once you start doing it), you will be recognized as a world-class expert
on the topic of your choice, and you will have people seeking you out for all
kinds of lucrative opportunities.”
Dan:
Wow, that’s pretty compelling, isn’t it?
David:
Yes! And you see what he did was he took them into the future…
after they had bought his product, used it, benefited from that. Then he talks
about the results from that.
So the paragraph that I just read…that’s really powerful copy. He’s talking
about the benefit of the benefit, okay? The benefit of the benefit…Let’s
examine it again. “In fact, just by writing and distributing free articles on the
internet (something that gets pretty easy once you start doing it), you will
become recognized as a world-class expert on the topic of your choice, and
you will have people seeking you out for all kinds of profitable
opportunities.”
He’s taking you from having used the product to recognition as an expert and
people want to be recognized for being smart , being expert. He says, “topic
of your choice,” so you can be an expert on anything you want to be. And he
says people are “seeking you out” so you’re in demand. And don’t forget he
says, “all kinds of lucrative opportunities…”
Not only did he pack benefits in, he actually showed them the result of
having used the product. And that’s number three, which is to have them
picture the results of the product.
The website you can find that on is www.turnwordsintotraffic.com.
Dan:
Okay.
David: You know the last compelling technique I want to share with you is
one that many people shy away from.
If you are deep into the sales culture or the entrepreneurial culture, and many
spiritual cultures, there’s this tendency to pretend that negativity doesn’t
exist, to always think positive, to always, you know, keep your eyes bright
and shiny and focus on the positive.
I think it’s a really good way to psych yourself up to do something that could
be challenging. So I don’t have anything against that…but the reality is most
people live in pain most of the time. Whether you like it or not, whether you
think that’s how the world should be or not.
There are about twice as many adjectives that describe negative emotions in
English as describe positive emotions, and that should tell you something.
When you are writing copy, you want to lead people to those positive
emotions, but you need to acknowledge…get in touch with…validate…show
empathy for the negative feel- ings. So they understand that you know where
they live. So they feel that you are part of their world, not part of some alien
world.
Let me give you an example of what I’m talking about. The key principle
here is to get your prospects in touch with the pain and frustration of their
current situation as it relates to your product.
Jim Edwards and I did this e-book called Immediate Money Immediately,
and the way the book came up was we thought about all the hype out there on
the Internet about money making opportunities that weren’t working for
people. We knew they weren’t working because people were complaining
about them to us all the time, and when we looked at them ourselves we
realized -- as businessmen -- we realized that they couldn’t work.
They weren’t sound; they weren’t based on sound principles.
So what we did is we put together a list of simple things that anyone could do
without having much sophistication and much business experience to make
money on the Internet. And that became Immediate Money Immediately.
Now, we could have come out swinging, saying, “Hey! We’re going to show
you how to make lots of money on the Internet! This stuff’s for real!” and so
forth, but we didn’t. We started out in our copy by getting in touch with how
the prospect was feeling based in their own experience of what they had done
and noticed and experienced previously.
We knew that many people want to make money on the Internet; but few are.
So our goal was to give some of the people who aren’t making money some
steps to take to move into the smaller group. And this is how we started the
copy:
“It’s enough to make you want to puke. You see all these people talking
about how well they’re doing on the Internet, almost as if they singlehandedly invented Internet marketing, selling Internet moneymaking
products that promise the moon! But when you get down to where the rubber
meets the road, they can’t tell you a single damn thing that makes any sense
for you. Know what I mean?”
That’s the copy that opens that website. We made $10,000 the first day, and
because it’s an electronic product you can get refunds instantly. We didn’t…
we had an extremely low refund rate on that product. So we obviously
delivered on our promises…Or whether we delivered on our promises or not,
I can’t tell you for sure, but our customers were very satisfied.
So, to sum up…there are the four ways to make the copy more compelling.
Tell stories; use word pictures to get people to imagine having, using,
touching or benefiting from your product; use word pictures to get them to
see the results of having used the product; and the fourth one is get them in
touch with the pain and frustration of their own situation.
Dan:
Okay. Now, David, we’ve covered a lot. But can you just talk a
little bit about Internet marketing? What do you think are some of the most
effective ways to drive traffic to a website?
David: I think there are a couple of hot ways right now. The first one is to
write articles that have interesting content and you send it to people who have
newsletters where they would be interested in your topic. You can get Jim’s
product and there are any other number of products on that topic.
So writing articles is one way and often that’s free. It does take the time and
effort. The second way to get traffic to your website is with Google Adwords.
I was just at the big seminar with Arman Miran. Fabulous seminar. I would
strongly recommend to anyone who’s listening to this to attend the next one
he’s holding. BigSeminar.com is just great. At the seminar, many people
were talking about some really great results they were getting with Google
Adwords.
Google Adwords are the words that form in the right column when you do a
search. They stack up on the right column and they show interest, they have a
little bar graph underneath them with a percentage that shows interest level.
Google Adwords would be a second way I could see to really market on the
Internet right now.
Dan:
Any other ways?
David:
There are plenty of other ways. Those are the two best that I’m
aware of. You can also run ads in e-zines.
I don’t think banners work very well. But you can trade links with people on
different websites. And, of course, if you have a real world business where
you’re dealing with physical products from stores and mailings, you can print
your web address there.
If you use radio ads you can get website traffic that way. I know some of the
big catalog companies have driven many of their customers to their websites
with radio, and they are saving a lot on printing and postage that way. But for
a small business I’m not sure that makes much sense.
Overall, Dan, one of the important things to remember is that when you’re in
business, every communication you have is marketing. Whether you think so
or not, because it’s either going to attract people to your business or push
them away from it.
People do many different things. Some people show up in discussion boards
and forums. Putting your web address in your signature line, in emails. Many
of those things work.
Dan:
David, let’s say someone just finished writing an e-book. It’s a
pretty good book…let’s say it’s on marketing for a small business. What
advice would you give to them? Like what should they do…step-by-step…to
make sure it’s a big success?
David: Well, first I would say that I would hope they didn’t write the book
just because they thought it would be a good idea. I hope they did some
research first and found out that as an e-book…first there are people already
selling e-books on websites on this topic, and second there are many searches
for it.
In E-Book Secrets Exposed, we have a bonus that walks you through this
topic in detail. It’s called the “E-Book Content Detective.” What we show
people how to do is go into the Overture advertiser term search tool and find
out how many people are looking for which searches, which terms each
month.
Once you have a sense of a market, then what you want to do is write the ebook off the needs of that market. You’ve identified those needs from your
research and by look- ing at the websites that show up when you type in the
keywords that were searched and looking at the products that they’re selling.
If you don’t have a list and you haven’t sold anything on the Internet then
you’re going to have to start with some relationships. I think a good thing to
do is put up a good website and find some joint venture partners. There’s a
good book by Steve Tanner out called InstantLetters.com. In it, he explains
how to reach out to other people to get them to endorse their product.
Also in Immediate Money Immediately, we have a bonus on how you can
start an e-book from scratch, so there are some resources there.
Basically, you’re going to have to have a different twist on the same thing the
market already wants. Does that make sense? A different twist on the same
thing the market already wants.
So you offer what people are looking for but you offer a slightly better
version of it. Then you need to get traffic to the website and you have to have
copy that converts. That’s really important. If you have a great product on a
great topic and your copy stinks, it really doesn’t matter too much. So you’ve
got to have great conversion, a great website.
Dan:
Okay. Now David, let me ask you just one last question. What do
you feel are the secrets of becoming a master copywriter?
David: I would say number one is desire: you have to really want to do it.
It’s not easy. You have to understand the principles of mastery, which is
going over the basics again and again.
Number two is you have to become a salesman or a saleswoman in person.
You can’t write copy without being able to sell one-on-one…because all
you’re doing with copy is translating a spoken sales pitch, an in-person
interaction, to a written one. And you have to be able to do it in-person first.
I’d say the third thing that you need is to read and reread some of the basics.
Even though Claude Hopkins and Vic Schwab, and Robert Collier and Dick
Swartz didn’t use the Internet, what they have to say about marketing is more
important than anything any of us these days are saying. And I think what we
have to say is pretty darn import ant, too.
You know, I’m coaching someone right now in copywriting. I don’t take
many private clients on because it’s pretty hard work and it needs to be taken
on by a special person. But this one client, I’m having him read some of the
old classics and the old basics. You know, the stuff that you can get from
TWI Press.
Dan:
TWIPress.com.
David:
Yeah. Scientific Advertising…How to Write a Good
Advertisement…The Robert Collier writing book…John Caple’s book Tested
Advertising Method. You need to read those and you need to read those more
than once and you need to really think about those. I would say those are
three ways to start.
Dan:
Okay, well, David this is a lot of good information: Ten steps to get
copy done and get it right and four ways to make your copy even more
compelling, how to drive traffic to your website and how to become a master
copywriter. How can people get in touch with you and get a hold of your
product?
David:
To get in touch with me people should go to my website
www.davidgarfinkel.com. My products are all on websites of their own:
www.killercopytactics.com,
www.adheadlines.com,
www.ebooksecretsexposed.com, www.immediatemoney.com.
And you can also sign up for our free newsletter. Jim Edwards and I have a
free newsletter called Info-Marketing Update. You can go to
infomarketing.com and you should find any products that I have upcoming
by subscribing to that newsletter. You also learn about copywriting and that
one’s free, so you should go there and get that free.
Dan:
Thanks so much, David. This has been valuable information.
Alex Mandossian - King of Postcard
Marketing
With over 1,800 rare books and volumes dating back to the 1800s, Alex
Mandossian owns one of the largest private collections of advertising and
marketing libraries ever assembled.
From the first magazine ad appearing in the 1741 May issue of Benjamin
Franklin’s General Magazine, to mastering the skill of attracting “eyeballs”
for web sites, Alex feels there is only one secret to crafting irresistible ad
copy: Study the ads of master copywriters of past years.
During the past 12 years, Alex has helped his clients create over $183 million
in sales from various sources. These include TV spots, infomercials, QVC
and the Home Shopping Network, national retail catalogs, space ads in
Parade Magazine and USA Weekend, direct mail, Web marketing, and of
course, postcards.
He has helped to develop and distribute spot TV and infomercial mega-hits
including the Thigh Master (Suzanne Somers), RONCO Food Dehydrator
(Ron Popeil), Players Club International (Telly Savalas), Topsy Tail, Contour
Pillow, Ray Stevens Comedy Video Classics, Doctor’s Book of Home
Remedies, Time Life’s Wild Animal Video Series, and a host of others.
Alex is best known for his niche marketing successes for Robell Research,
Inc. where he distinguished himself as Chief Marketing Officer in the
1990s.While running this top Madison Avenue market research firm, he
helped build Supersmile Whitening Toothpaste™ into the #1 brand sold in
spas and salons worldwide.
Alex:
Daniel. How are you?
Dan:
Fantastic, fantastic.
Now, Alex, we’ve got a lot to cover during this interview, so why don’t we
start off by letting you tell our listeners your background and how you got
started.
Alex:
My beginnings start with infomercial marketing. I learned how to
get someone to stop clicking the channel on “the clicker”…the remote
control.
I get them to stop, suspend what they’re doing and then watch an infomercial,
which is typically28 minutes and 30 seconds (or a short form spot which is
60 seconds.) In that time frame, get them to have enough attention, interest,
and desire to take action and call an 800-number and order.
Back in the early 90s, we didn’t have the Internet like we have it today; not
for commercial purposes anyway. You couldn’t make any money from the
Internet.
So we would spend upwards of $300,000 or $400,000 for an infomercial,
sometimes $50,000 or $60,000 for a spot, just to produce it.
Web sites don’t cost that much, Daniel, you know that. And media time can
be anywhere from $1,000 to $2,000, even on cable, for a short-form spot of
60 seconds…upwards of $40,000 or $50,000 -- sometimes even more -- for
an infomercial that runs 28 minutes and 30 seconds.
So I paid attention to what I thought would sell in the time frame I had, and
we used demonstration as the key form of capturing attention and interest.
Eventually, I learned to write copy for direct mail. We had many products
that went to QVC and Home Shopping Network, which are retail catalogs on
television. People go there as a destination rather than clicking channels.
QVC and HSN are brands, so it was like getting a Sharper Image catalog and
flipping the pages…And then waiting for the programming block for what
products are sold. We sold hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of
products through QVC and Home Shopping Network.
There’s also Value Vision, which is the smaller, the third major home
shopping network. We took products that people saw on TV to Parade
Magazine and USA Weekend…The most prevalent space advertising
mediums there were.
We went into catalogs like Sharper Image, Front Gate, Harriet Carter, and
Carol Wright. And we did direct mail to build continuity.
Most of the products in the infomercial world these days are based on
continuity. People can’t make that much money on the front end of a sale,
and so they build continuity. Time Life books has done it with videos and
Guthy Renker has done it with
Anthony Robbins I, II, III…I don’t know how many versions there are of
those. I worked on I and II.
And all the skin care products that you see on television…Those are all
continuity based.
I came into the Internet world and made my first “online dollar” in 1999
selling a high-end toothpaste called Super Smile. The web site is still up; it’s
called
www.supersmileusa.com.The doctor who sold it was my partner at the time.
His name is Dr. Erwin Smigel; he invented the bonding technique. And he’s
at www.smigel.com. If you visit those two web sites you’ll see that, even
though they were developed a while ago, they are very, very innovative in the
way that they market.
I eventually became a traffic version strategist, because what I learned in the
infomercial business is applicable in the Internet marketing world, only it
doesn’t cost as much. I can be visible on line for an entire year, twenty-four
hours a day, 365 days a year.
It’s not going to cost me anything on my web site, other than my ISP and
hosting cost, which is slight compared to an infomercial.
I have found the Holy Grail. The Internet marketing world that I know is
conversion. I use psychology of converting traffic into sales: I convert firsttime customers into lifelong customers. And in the offline world I’m known
for my postcard marketing techniques, which are like billboards by mail, or
web pages by mail.
I’m not good at creating traffic for the Internet, and typically I’m not good at
doing continuity direct mail. But I’m a pretty good copywriter and I’ve had
some very successful online and offline campaigns, direct mail letters and
web sites. I’ve also created some really effective postcards.
Dan:
Alex, you’re known as the “king” of postcard marketing. But
someone reading your story might say, “Come on, Alex. I’m not in the direct
mail business,” or “I’m not in the mail order business. Why should we do
postcard marketing?”
Alex:
Well, let’s say that you have an online presence. Most people will
go to their email box, click a link directing them to a Web page and decide to
opt in, providing their name and email address. That doesn’t take too much
effort for user because they are already in front of their computer. With one
click of the pinkie I clicked the link, I went to the web page and opted in
because it looked like it was appealing to me.
Now, compare that to you receiving a postcard. A postcard is naked; it
doesn’t have an envelope. That means all the appeal and information the
consumer needs is right before their eyes.
It’s just as easy to entice someone using a postcard as it is an email, because
it requires little effort. The consumer doesn’t have to open an envelope and
read much superfluous material.
Many copywriters are paid hundreds of thousands of dollars a year just to get
the envelope open. That hassle is eliminated when you use postcard mailings.
The postcard is naked. You see, it’s naked mail; it arrives without an
envelope. The post- card is like a mirror image of a Web page: the consumer
simply uses the naked eye rather than their computer to view your offer.
Many consumers will read their mail at the office or near their home
computer. Imagine you receive your postcard in the mail on Friday afternoon.
You may decide not to read that postcard till Monday morning.
Now on Monday morning I may sit by my computer and ready your postcard.
I’ll say, “Wow. This is neat. Daniel has some offer that I need to opt into.” So
I do. Now, under- stand I worked harder to opt into your offer if you sent me
a postcard than had you sent me an email.
Online to online is very simple; it’s how we opt in all the time. You can
attract just about anyone using an online email. However, you may attract
more valuable and committed customers when you use postcard mailing or
direct mail, because that consumer has taken much more time and invested
much more effort in your campaign.
This suggests they have more than simply a passing interest in your product
or service. Hence, offline to online is a much more valuable prospect, and
I’ve proven it over and over and over again.
With less than 6000 people on my list, I can produce a six-figure income -hopefully seven-figure next year --because of the high quality leads that come
from the offline world. I get my income from public speaking; I get it from
direct mail and from space ads. I get it from postcard marketing. So postcard
marketing is one element of offline marketing that I recommend to anyone.
A postcard is a web page by mail: it’s very inexpensive, like a web page and
it is full-color, just like a web page is. And if you can get people to give you a
shy “yes” to a postcard -- which is opting in -- it is a much more valuable
online lead and prospect…I would call it a hot prospect.
My point is a postcard prospect worked harder to opt-in. I believe they are
more valuable and I would recommend that you create a sub list of offline
opt-ins. Let’s say if you had a beauty salon, you could send postcards to your
list for people to pick up a gift certificate online that would need a web site
visit to opt-in.
They would print the gift certificate and bring it into your store…if it was a
woman, she could get a manicure; if it was a man, he could receive a haircut.
If you had a chiropractic office, you could send a postcard to all your
prospects or even your existing patients. And you could have a gift certificate
for a free x-ray with your exam.
Whatever offer might be, get them to opt in to claim it. And by opting in
through the postcard they are much more valuable, because they’re going
offline to online.
I have a garbage collection company, a waste hauler in California - www.calwaste.com. You go to that site…and boy; it incorporates all the elements that
I’ve learned through traffic conversion.
That is a company that uses direct mail including postcard mailing. They
have a special report about the biggest secrets that most waste haulers
overlook they send to customers, and people opt into that all the time. Offline
measures can attract key clients.
Dan:
Okay. I’m sold on the idea! I want to do postcard marketing. Can
you give outline a step- by-step system…a blueprint…on how to market with
postcards?
Alex:
Well, it’s very easy, actually. And in looking at the postcard, it’s far
less complicated than doing direct mail.
With direct mail you have the envelope, and you have to wonder, “Should I
use teaser copy or no teaser copy? Should I put my name in the return address
or shall I not put the return address? Should I hand-sign the envelope?”
Dan:
Yeah, and “How should I stuff the envelope?” You have to consider
all of that.
Alex:
Exactly. I’m not even done with the envelope and there are fifty
things to think about!
And then there are the questions about what’s inside: “Should I use a twelvepage letter or a six-page letter? Should I use a one-page letter or a twenty
eight-page letter? Shall I put four P.S.s or three P.S.s? Do I need one P.S. or
two postscripts. Shall I hand sign it or do something else? Should I have two-
color or four color? Should I have a brochure or shall I have a coupon?”
I mean you have to make all of these decisions…And you have to make them
for every part of your direct mailing which typically includes a sales letter -which is the work- horse -- and a coupon, which is all-important. You’ll have
a brochure and a return envelope, hopefully. Or a BRC, which is a Business
Reply Card.
There are many important ingredients that make a good direct mailing piece.
It becomes very, very expensive. A postcard, on the other hand, is not that
expensive. It’s in full color and it’s naked, which I mentioned before. There
are not many decisions you have to make.
So before I talk about the step-by-step method to marketing with postcards,
let me give you anatomy of a postcard.
First you have the billboard. The billboard is the picture side of the postcard.
The only point, the only aim, the only objective of a billboard is to achieve
one goal, and typically it takes anywhere from 1.5 to 3 seconds to do that.
Dan:
Catch their attention?
Alex:
Catch their attention and turn the postcard over.
Here’s something else. On any billboard on the street, a freeway or on a
turnpike, you won’t see more than eight words on a billboard. That’s because
most people can’t read more than eight words going at sixty miles an hour.
Well, on a postcard, people are going 150 miles an hour! They don’t “slow
down” when they take that postcard out of their mailbox. They’re not looking
for an offer or salivating like a dog, asking, “Oh boy, what did I get today?”
In fact, that postcard is an unwelcome guest.
But at least it has a picture. And the point of that picture, that billboard, is to
turn the postcard over. If you turn the postcard over to the face side -- the
other side where the offer is -- then the billboard has done its job.
Many times people don’t even see the billboard because the face side of the
postcard, where all the offer and address information is, is facing up. The
mail deliverer or mail carrier put it in the box that way.
So there’s the billboard side, and the billboard headline shouldn’t be any
more than eight words, or less. And a billboard on the freeway should be
eight words or less. And there should be a picture.
Now what I like to do with pictures is to confuse people and make them
curious, like “Gee, what does that mean?” So if I’m getting people to do a
business-to-business post- card, and the message is, “What’s the secret that
makes you stand out in front of your competitors?” I’ll have a penguin and
behind the penguin there’ll be a bunch of flamingos.
Now, there’s a very brief headline, and there’s a picture that is interesting. It
creates curiosity. It gets attention. You know, AIDA: Attention, Interest,
Desire, and Action. All a billboard needs to do is capture attention and get the
reader to turn over the card to the face side.
The face side is in two part s. On the right you have the stamp, the return
address…You have some phone numbers and web site addresses, hopefully.
You have the address to: John Jones and wherever John lives.
On the left side there’s your marketing message: the offer.
Most people confuse long copy with effective copy. On a postcard, it is not
that necessary to have long copy. You should convey your entire message,
but long copy is not necessary if you just want them to go to a web site to
close the sale.
It is true in direct mail the more you tell, the more you sell…Of course this is
only true if the more of what you’re telling is meaningful. On a postcard, you
have to be an Olympic champion copywriter, as Ted Nicholas used to say,
because you don’t have that much space.
It’s like a space ad in a newspaper or magazine. You don’t have 16 pages to
32 pages to play with. You have a very small surface area…4.25 x 6 inches at
the moment for a 23-cent stamp, and up to 8 x 11.5 inches for a 37-cent
stamp. Some people send jumbos that are about 6 x 9, 5.5 x 9
Dan:
Have you tested this? Is it more effective to use jumbo?
Alex:
The bigger, the better…because it stands out. I’ve found time after
time after time, jumbo typically works better. But small works well, too, if
you create something personal. The message and the offer on the postcard are
very, very important. What I recommend to people who want to capture
interest is “Don’t sell…seduce.”
Seduction means to capture a lead. The postcard, at the very most, should be
part of a two-step process. Don’t try to sell something with just a postcard.
Direct them to a 24-hour recorded message, or have them go to a web site, or
have them send an email to a blank auto responder. Those are the three things
you want the left side to do. And I’m going to repeat them because they’re
very important; leave any one of those three things out and you are going to
decrease the selling power of that card.
Number 1: You want them to call a 24-hour, pre-recorded message. Why is
“pre-recorded” important? Because the recipient knows there is no
salesperson on the end. They can lurk, they can listen, and they can hang up
with no effect.
Number 2: You can take them to a web site. If you take them to a web site, I
like to use a username and a password so they feel like they are coming to
something special. And once they’re there, offer ethical bribes. Sell the “three
free chapters.”
When I say, “sell,” I don’t mean charge. The chapters are free, but I’m
“selling” a bribe. I’m not selling my course. What I say is: “You want
Marketing with Postcards? Great. Get three chapters free.”
If you’re like my friend Armand Morin who has e-book software, you’ll want
to sell the video tutorial on how to use it. Go to www.audiogenerator.com
where you will find a sequence on how to make your emails and web sites
talk, a postcard sent to people can sell the free trial, or send a free audio
postcard to a friend or loved one.
You want to sell the ethical bribe.
My good friend Mike Litman, he can sell his 60-minute audio presentation at
www.mike- litman.com, where he is interviewing people like Tony Robbins,
Mark Victor Hanson, Robert Allen, “Famous” Amos (that’s Wally Amos),
Joe Sugarman and all the other greats.
So sell the bribe, that’s what you want to really sell; nothing else.
And you must have three calls to action, all three of them. The first is a 24hour recorded message. The second is a web site with a username and
password, and the third is an autoresponder.
I use teleclinic@thatonewebguy.com to bring people into my world to learn
the seven- step Guerrilla Marketing plan that Jay Conrad Levinson taught me.
(I do it more than anyone else on the planet, according to Jay.) Many of my
best paying customers come to me after listening to this free, one-hour
teleclinic that I do every other Tuesday at high noon, Pacific Time.
Now, when I send out postcards for this thing I will pay for people to take
part in this teleclinic because I know if they come I have them.
I get them to come three ways. Through a 24-hour recorded message, where
they leave me their name and phone number and I give them the web site
address; or by going to a web site with a username and pass code; or by
sending a blank email to an autoresponder.
Here’s why it’s so important to send a blank email to an autoresponder: Not
everyone will leave a message on the 24-hour recorded message. Not
everyone will opt-in on the web site. But you will capture 100% of the
contact information from emails that send a blank email to the autoresponder.
Do you understand what I’m saying? 100%.
So you need all three of those, and if you do that you will increase the pulling
power of your postcard. But think about a campaign, not about a mailing.
A campaign is not one mailing. A campaign is four mailings. A campaign is
eight mailings. I’ve done 150 cards on one day to one person, a CEO, to get
his attention. I’ve done a- card-a-day to advertising firms in San Francisco to
capture attention.
I’ve done one card each week for four weeks to a certain target market to
capture attention.
It is a lot of work, but much better to send a four-card campaign to a very
tightly targeted list of 1,000 rather than send one card to a not-so-tightly
targeted list of 4,000…because frequency builds trust.
Your best friend today was once a stranger. And what made that person your
best friend? Frequency.
Postcards work the same way. You may “convert” them on the first one, or
the second. It may take four, or five times before someone has enough trust to
act…It can take seven or eight times before you get them at the “right time”
so they respond to your postcard.
Does that make sense?
Dan:
It sure does. So Alex, how do you find the right people to receive
these postcards?
Alex:
Well, there are many ways to find a list. That’s a question that’s
often asked. The best and least expensive way is for me to joint venture.
So let’s say you have a list of tele-seminar goers. And let’s say it’s a sub list
you’ve created. So I say, “Daniel, what I want to do a joint venture with you.
I want you promote my Marketing Manuscripts teleconference coming up
next week and I want you to send out a postcard to your list. I will pay you
50% of anyone who comes to that teleconference from your list.”
It’s a host-beneficiary program. And the postcard would read “By special
arrangement with Daniel Lok…”
Dan:
It’s like an endorsement, too.
Alex:
It’s the only way I work. I don’t rent lists. You can, but I’m not a
big general advertiser. I’m a direct response guerrilla marketer. And I don’t
have money to throw away. I always need an endorsement.
Sometimes I work with Chambers of Commerce. I say, “By special
arrangement with the
Chamber of Commerce of…- and I fill in the city -- I want to invite you to.”
As long as I’m a member of that Chamber of Commerce, I can solicit the list
they have via email, by fax, by broadcast, by direct mail. That saves me much
money sending postcards.
When I get lists, I look for “JV”, joint venture relationships. It’s very, very
important for me to work under JV relationships. I don’t like to buy lists
because often, those people are transient. They’re not going to stay loyal to
me. I’d be wasting money.
And these days, general marketing is over-communicated. 3500 advertising
messages a day if you live in a metropolitan area. That’s 24,000 a week
.That’s 1.27 million a year. That means I’m not going to stand out, so I might
as well piggyback with you if you have a list that I can work with. So I look
for JV relationships.
Dan:
Okay. Now, Alex, let me just change topics a bit here. Let’s talk
about infomercials. Is an infomercial a marketing medium for everybody?
Who should do infomercials?
Alex:
I don’t think that it’s worth doing infomercials, to be honest. I
would much rather go on QVC or Home Shopping Network and I used to do
infomercials solely.
Only one in twenty infomercials succeed. And there’s just a handful of major
infomercial marketers left because it’s so expensive. The big companies got
in; the media rates went way up.
There are so many other ways to make money online, and through postcard
marketing, and through space ads, which is the best source of offline lead
generation, by the way, that I’ve ever found. I’m sorry if I’m disappointing
anybody, but it probably will save you much money if you don’t dabble in
infomercials
Dan:
And, as far as I know, even those big marketing companies, they
just break even most of the time with their infomercials. But because they
have a huge backend, that’s how they make money.
Alex: Well, they break even, yes. And what happens is if they have a retail
presence, they can help drive the retail sales through the infomercial. So the
infomercial is a top-of-mind awareness modality these days in marketing, but
it is not a good way to make money.
Infomercial marketing is highly, highly speculative and I do not recommend
it to anyone who’s “listening in” on our conversation.
Dan:
I hear you, Alex. But since you are very experienced, I still want to
pick your brain in this area. What are the key elements to producing a
successful direct-response infomercial?
Alex:
Well, you have to have a story. And you have to have a product
that’s demonstrable. It has to be a magic bullet. It has to be an instant
change…Like Topsy-Tail, which was not an infomercial; it was a short form
spot. It showed you 42 different “changes” in a commercial of 45 seconds...
basically, more scenes than there are seconds in that commercial.
The infomercial showed all the different ponytails that a woman could have
in all kinds of circumstances. It was a $12.95 product. Millions were sold.
Then there’s Thighmaster. The infomercial said “You can have slimmer,
trimmer, more beautiful thighs if you use Suzanne Summers’ Thighmaster.”
And the reason that sold as a short form was because it had a magic bullet.
Let’s look at more infomercials.
You can see Tony Robbins’ infomercial, which is personal development: You
will change the way you feel about yourself. You will increase your selfesteem. You will do what some of the most successful people have done and
break all the barriers to success that you’ve been faced with, shatter all of
them if you follow what this man says.
That’s the promise in that infomercial.
So infomercial success is a four-part formula. It’s based on a formula I
learned about in copywriting and I just mentioned it before. It’s AIDA:
Attention, Interest, Desire, and Action.
The four-part formula I use is the four Ps. It works in copy and it does work
in infomercials as well. That is Picture, Promise, Prove, and Push.
Picture the problem and then the solution. You need that in an infomercial.
A clearer face if you have an acne cream, or a richer bank account if you
have a “how to get rich” program. A trimmer body if you have an exercise
program. You have to have a picture of what the person’s going to end
looking like, or what you’re bank account’s going to look like, or what your
face is going to look like.
Then you need to have a promise. “If you do this then you will get these
results.” That’s the second P.
The third P is proof. I want to see proof. Joe Sugarman is a genius at this. Joe
is the inventor of the infomercial that I thought was the most testimonialladen infomercial in history, which was the BluBlocker Sunglasses.
Yet he sold BluBlockers in the millions and made hundreds of millions of
dollars in the process. He lives in Hawaii, one of his homes and I don’t know
where else he lives.
What Joe Sugarman did is use testimonials. He never showed what it looked
like through the glasses, but he gave a bunch of proof through testimonials.
He showed people putting on the glasses and you would see the results on
their face…how they were astonished and startled, like, “Oh my gosh! I can’t
believe these glasses!”
So he showed a picture, made a promise, then he had proof.
The final step is pushing for the sale. And people think of that as the call to
action. So Picture, Promise, Proof, and Push through the sale. That is a fourpart formula for infomercials.
Do you know Alvin Eicoff…he is one of the experts of infomercial
marketing. He was a direct response marketer out of Chicago. He used to
have a three-part formula, which was Tease, Please, and Seize.
Tease them is what Joe Sugarman did. He teased with curiosity. Hold it out in
front of them so they want it.
Then please them. Show them a demonstrable difference in using your
product versus something else that’s out there. Or maybe your product
doesn’t compete with anything. That’s okay. You can still please them and
fill, or satisfy, their thirst and hunger. Give them a rationalization to buy.
Tease them with emotion, please them with rationalization to buy, and then
seize their order.
Get a call to action in that’s urgent and compelling with bonus gifts and
deadlines -- it’s only good for fifteen minutes…and you get two sunglasses
instead of one…you get a video with the Thighmaster -- and everything you
could think of that to add value.
That is the seizing process of Alvin Eicoff.
So those are two formulas. One is the four Ps, which is Picture, Promise,
Prove, and Push, as in push for the sale. And Alvin Eicoff’s formula was
three parts; that was Tease, Please, and Cease the order.
Dan:
Wonderful, wonderful. Now, Alex, I know you and your partner
Yanik Silver have pro- duced a product called Twenty-One Mind Motivators.
It wouldn’t be fair for me to ask you to share all of, but could you just share
some of them with us…maybe five or six of them?
Alex:
Of course. Mind motivators are very, very powerful and potent
because what they do is they automatically get people to buy and buy more
often.
Now, this idea came about because Yanik and I use psychological tactics to
get people to buy from us. And because the mind motivators are so powerful
and so automatic, we always caution people in telling them to only use these
mind motivators for ethical purposes. Because used inappropriately, they can
manipulate and are very, very powerful.
So I’m going to state that from the beginning. Please use them ethically, and
don’t use them for any other reason besides generous purposes.
Probably one of the most powerful mind motivators is a story. They create
memories and they create more sales. Telling a story is one of the most
powerful, if not the most powerful motivators. It’s my favorite way to start a
public speech.
A story has a moral, and it has a call to action. But people don’t judge the
story; they get the moral from it in their own way. And that’s the beauty of it.
There’s a famous story that has been used to sell The Wall Street Journal, and
it’s been going on for I think the last thirty years now. It starts like this:
“On a beautiful spring afternoon twenty-five years ago, two young men
graduated from the same college. They were very much alike, and these two
young men, both had better than average grades in school. Both were
personable, and both were, as college students, filled with ambitious dreams
of the future”.
“Recently these two men returned to college for their 25th reunion. They
were still very much alike. Both were happily married, both had three
children, and both, as it turned out, had gone to work for the same
Midwestern manufacturing company after graduation and were still there”.
“But there was a difference. One man was the manager of a small department
of that company, and one man was the President.”
That’s the way the story opens, and you can guess what the difference was
between the manager and the President. The Wall Street Journal has used this
ad opening as their control for the last thirty years. It’s very, very powerful.
There’s also the story that Joe Sugarman tells in his space ad for BluBlockers. It goes something like this:
“I’m going to tell you a story. It’s absolutely true. If you believe me you’ll be
well reward- ed. If you don’t believe me I’ll make it worth your while to
change your mind. Let me explain”.
“Glen is a friend of mine who knows good products. One day, he called
excited about a pair of sunglasses he owns. ‘It’s so incredible!’ he said.
‘When you look through this pair, you won’t believe it?’
“‘’What would I see?’ I asked.What could be so incredible?’
“When you put on these glasses your vision improves. Objects become
sharper and more well-defined. Everything takes on an improved, 3D-effect.
And it’s not my imagination. I just want you to see for yourself…”
And then the story continues. Do you see how the story gets you into a
selling position? The buyer goes into a frenzy as far as his or her imagination
is concerned. And you are not really selling, you’re just storytelling and the
stories do the selling for you.
The Bible is compiled stories. The Ta l mud is compiled stories.
Dan:
Chicken Soup is stories.
Alex:
The Koran is stories. Spiritual books are full of stories. So the
bottom line is that stories are one of those wonderful mind motivators.
Another one is frequency.
You can use frequency to build greater trust and to build greater profits.
Frequency with postcards, let’s say. It is much better to send four postcards to
1,000 people than 4,000 postcards to 40,000 people. Do you understand what
I’m saying? To send 4,000 post- cards to 4,000 people once is nowhere near
as powerful and effective as sending 4,000 postcards to 1,000 people.
Frequency builds a relationship. There’s no quick fix alternative. So the more
frequent you can run something…the better.
No one would ever dream of running a radio ad just once. You’ve got to air it
fourteen, twenty, forty times. An infomercial…it runs over and over and over
again. That’s the key. Frequency is one of the mind motivators that people
often overlook. So that’s another mind motivator that we focus on.
I’ll give you one more: “Reason why”. “Reason why” removes skepticism. If
you give a strong enough “reason why” then people will always buy. There’s
a Harvard case study that Robert Cialdini talks about in his book Influence:
The Psychology of Persuasion.
And there’s a psychologist named Ellen Langer…She conducted a study
where she was looking at why people decide. And the experiment consisted
of people waiting in line to use a library copy machine. The experimenters
were seeing if people could cut in line to make copies.
So the first excuse an experimenter used was “Excuse me. I have five pages.
May I use the Xerox machine ahead of you because I’m in a rush?” This
request had very little success; about 60% of the people granted her request to
cut inline.
But by simply adding the word “because” -- “May I use the Xerox machine
because I’m in a rush?” -- the experimenter got 94% of the people to say,
“Yes.”
Just “because.”
And when someone said, “Because…” it didn’t matter what followed.
“Because I’m in a rush…Because I have to go to the bathroom…Because I’m
six feet tall…” People let others to cut in. In fact, one time the experimenter
said, “Excuse me. I have five pages to copy. May I use the Xerox machine
because I have to make some copies?”
93% of the people still said yes.
It didn’t matter what came after “because.” So the power of because is really
the power of reason why. If you give someone proof -- the reasons why they
should act -- they will.
Remember I said promise and then prove? Well, most people don’t prove
their promises. So giving good reasons why are very, very important in
figuring out how to get people to say, “Yes.” We talk about all these case
studies with the mind motivators, with “reason why” copy and “reason why”
strategy.
John E. Kennedy -- not to be confused with John F. Kennedy or with Dan
Kennedy the millionaire-maker and great copywriter -- was the first
millionaire copywriter who worked with Dr. Shoop of the medicine name,
back at the turn of the 20th Century. Around 1900, Kennedy was a Canadian
Mountie. At 24, he made a million bucks as a copywriter.
Kennedy wrote a book called Reason Why Advertising. If you go to
www.copywriting- coach.com, it’s part of the copywriting classics that are
available there.
John Kennedy is a man you need to study. Even though what he wrote is over
100 years old, all the principles are still valid. A principle never, ever
becomes obsolete. I’m going to explain a principle.
Dan:
Okay.
Alex:
(Sound of pen falling.) Did you hear that? That’s my pen dropping
.That’s the principle of gravity. Let’s see if it happens again. Okay? It
happens over and over again. That’s what a mind motivators are; they’re
principles. Using “reason why”, as John E Kennedy noted, makes anyone
buy.
Dan:
Tell them why and they’ll buy. Okay.
Now, Alex, from your experience, how does writing copy for online
marketing methods differ from writing copy for offline methods?
Alex:
Well, that’s a very, very good question. And the answer is: With
offline copy, all you have usually are words. And there’s very little
interaction. Sometimes you’ll have a “Yes” or “No” sticker, but that’s about
it.
The most interaction I can think of is my good friend who is the Lumpy
Marketer. We call him the Lumpy Marketer because he creates online leads
through direct mail but with lumpy packages. His name is Mitch Carson, and
he’s someone who’s very, very smart, because he’s found a way to get people
to interact with mail to build an opt-in list.
But with the offline world, people only have words at their disposal. It’s
expensive to do anything else.
There are five things that separate online and offline copy. First, you have
full color with online copy. No one has a monochromatic screen anymore
because using color on your web site doesn’t cost anymore than going black
and white. No one would dream of a black and white web site, but having
color in offline copy is very expensive.
Movement is another difference. I can make things move online. I can have
exit pop-ups; I can have regular pop-ups. I can have things moving back and
forth. At www.mindmotiva- tors.com my pop-ups are very unique. And at
www.audiogenerator.com we use pointing arrows that are constantly in
motion.
Movement is very important because it catches the eyes’ attention, something
that’s called “eye gravity.” So that’s a big difference between online and
offline copy. You can’t have something move on a piece of paper.
Then there’s interaction, as I mentioned earlier. Interaction is one of the
biggest differences. I can use checkboxes to interact with my mouse. I can do
pop-ups, I can have pop quizzes, and I can opt in. I can click an audio button
to hear someone’s voice. I can’t do that with offline copy. So interaction is a
big difference.
And talking about audio…sound is the fourth big difference between online
and offline. Online I can get sound with one click of the button.
In the offline world, there is no sound with a letter…or not very often
because of the expense. If you have sound -- say a little card that opens and
you press a button near the card -- the cost can be up to 40 or 50-cents just to
make it.
It’s expensive to create an offline sound message and it’s expensive to send
it. In the online world, however, it’s nearly free. Go to www.bigseminar.com.
Go to www.marke t- ingwithpostcards.com. Go www.audiogenerator.com
and you will hear the power of sound.
The fifth and final difference between online and offline is measurement. I
can measure within seconds, often within a day, how my copy’s doing online.
I can’t do that offline.
Now, I can measure how I’m doing through an infomercial or through a
Home Shopping Network offer…I can measure how that’s doing within a
day. But it’s not really measuring my copy because I don’t know what
produced attention, where they came in from, what they ordered, why they
ordered it, etc, etc.
It’s the same problem with direct mail, I can’t really find out if the fourth
paragraph was more powerful than the first. I can’t really measure how many
people actually opened the envelope because I have no idea. I can measure
how many people opened my email. I can measure how many people went to
my order page. So measurement is the fifth difference.
An online copywriter is like the producer of a television commercial. He or
she has visual, audio, interaction, and the power of color, movement,
interaction, sound, as well as measurement. And that is way, way different,
and much more involved than the work of an offline copywriter, which
typically is only concerned with words and a very alluring offer to get the
attention, interest and desire to take action.
Dan:
Should people combine all these methods when we do online copy,
or should we test each one of them?
Alex:
I would combine all of them. In fact, great copy does combine all of
them. You do want sound on a web site. You want to break the silence of the
web. You want movement of some kind. Definitely, you want color.
The banner or the look and feel of the web site contains color. You want to
measure things. You want to know which banners people click most. You
want audio.
You want interaction; you want people to interact, whether they’re anchor
tags or check- boxes, or pop-ups or exit pops or surveys.
You want all of those elements. So those five things provide a good checklist
of what to include in online copy.
Dan:
Okay. Wonderful. Now, Alex, tell us the story: How do you make a
five-figure income every month from one web site selling one product?
Alex:
Well, it’s a very good story. In fact, it got me famous within some
circles of the Internet marketing community. I wrote a headline that read:
How to Make Five-Figure Cash Profits Month after Month, Getting Less than
100 Visitors A Day. That got a lot of attention. I did it at
www.marketingwithpostcards.com.
Now, let me be perfectly honest with you. I don’t make five figures from that
site…And by the way, when I say five figures I don’t mean $10,000. I mean
over $30,000 some months. The best month I ever had was $58,000.
Now, I don’t do it just selling postcard courses, okay? I want to be clear.
Even with all the money coming from the site, there’s also other income
coming from other places as well.
From that particular site, they have access to my $21,000-a-year Protégé
Program. That’s a program. They have access to my $2,800, telephone
session, one-on-one coaching pro- gram. It’s a mentoring program. They
have access to my $1,800 group-coaching program that I put on four times a
year; in the winter, spring, fall and summer.
They have access to my $247 postcard course. They have access to my
teleconferences, free and fee. They have access to my e-books, The Copy
writing Classics to Web Copy Secrets to all my affiliate-type products that I
have with one shopping cart and with Audio Generator. And other things,
like conferences that I speak at; they usually are on my list because they’ve
opted in.
So that’s how I make so much money from that site each month…because I
have such a myriad of different products or services to sell to them that I get
them one-way or the other, if not through the postcard marketing.
Dan:
So it all comes from the back end?
Alex:
The back end and a different approach. See, I don’t believe in
funnel-theory marketing the way most people teach it. Most people teach the
funnel theory is that you start at $39, then you go to $100, then $250, then
$500, then $1,000 and possibly $5,000, or into a membership or platinum
club.
I believe that all those things happen, but I don’t believe that they happen in
sequence.
I don’t believe everyone comes in at $39, or at the low-end. I think you
should have those things and that you should have all the different price
points, but I don’t believe you work someone up, from $39 to $5,000.
In fact, I’ve found just the opposite is true. When many people buy my $39
audiovisual e- book, many of them don’t have the disposable income for my
$2,800 one-on-one mentoring program. Many of them don’t have the income
for my $21,000 Protégé Program or even my $1,800 group coaching.
Dan:
Makes sense.
Alex:
Many of them do, but many of them don’t. So I don’t believe in
funnel theory as a sequence; I believe in having a funnel for different price
points. So I would call it Product- Tiered Pricing Theory, where you have
different tiers. And, rather than a funnel, I like to look at it as a point of
consumption.
How do I get people to consume more of my product? I’ve found that it’s far,
far easier to get someone to consume a higher-end product and go to a lowerend product than to go up. So if someone buys my $1,800 coaching program,
it’s easier to sell that person a $29 teleconference, or a $39 e-book, or a $149
CD-Rom. Much, much easier.
So I believe in consumption. Once someone comes in…they don’t need to
come in at the $39 level…they can come in at the $21,000 level. Just get
them and teach them to consume more of your products, and make it
available to them.
It’s not so much of a funnel as a tiered pricing system. They can go down or
they can go up. They might come in at $1,800 and want to go up to $21,000;
or they may go down to $39.
Dan:
Okay. That makes sense.
Alex:
Bringing someone in at the very bottom and moving them up isn’t
just difficult, some- times it’s impossible because there’s not enough
disposable income. So you need to have many products at many prices. I
would call that Tiered Pricing Theory vs. Funnel Theory of marketing.
Dan:
Okay. Now, Alex, you’ve said that you’re not very good at driving
traffic to a web site. But based on your experience, what are the most
effective methods to use?
Alex:
When you say “most effective,” what I think that you’re saying, and
correct me if I’m wrong, “most effective” means “most profitable.” Is that
correct?
Dan:
Of course, of course.
Alex:
Okay, then my answer is joint venturing and offline traffic
generation. I have about, I don’t know, just under 6000 people in my
database online.
Dan:
Alex:
$118.
Dan:
That’s it?
That’s it. Each one of them, in the last twelve months, was worth
My God.
Alex:
Now, let me be fair with everyone. Some people bought zero and
other people have paid me more than $62,000. So I’m giving you the mean
average, not the median or the mode. Which means that it’s the total number
of customers divided into the total amount of revenue, obviously.
So I make a very nice living with a very small customer database, and it’s
very high quality. And the secret is to deliver content and never to hold back
.Anyone who’s come to a teleconference that I hold or am invited to knows
that.
This interview is another example. Have we given content?
Dan:
A ton of content.
Alex:
I think so! I know when I’m getting content and people understand
when they’re getting content. They understand it and they know they can take
use the information the moment they hang up the phone or the moment they
end up reading or the moment they end of listening…
They can take that content and transform it into cash in their bank account.
Hopefully add a zero to their bank account. So if there was $10,000 there
could be $100,000 now; if there was $1,000 there could be $10,000 now.
Dan:
Definitely a possibility from what we’ve covered so far.
Alex:
Delivering content is the way to build a great list. Because if you
have a bunch of consumers -- that’s why they call them, “consumers”…
because they’re consuming content -- those people will make you a living
beyond your wildest dreams. And information mar- keting is the single most
profitable business in the world, and that’s what we are. We are information
marketers.
Dan:
I agree with you.
Alex:
The margins are amazing.
I’m going to a conference in Las Vegas this weekend presented by John
Childers. You can read about him at www.speakingwithjohn.com. John is my
mentor. His sons Tracey and J.J. are two of my closest friends. All three are
superb information marketers.
Well, John has speaker training at his conferences and he teaches people how
to speak from the platform. And people pay $4,000 to listen to him. I happen
to be one of the speakers, so I want everyone in that room as a customer. And
typically, there are about fifty to sixty people who attend. We go once a
month.
Do you think that if I got contact information through an opt- in list from that
room that it would be a high quality opt in?
Dan:
Absolutely.
Alex:
Seems like it. A $4,000 client…Well, actually, a $4,000 prospect.
Now what if I told you that I could get most of that group with just 73
cents…If I spent 73 cents to earn a $4,000 prospect, is that something that
you’d be willing to do? Well, that’s exactly what I do.
I give away a CD-Rom. It’s called Up Sell Secrets. It’s an interview that Ken
McCarthy and Yanik Silver did at a Jonathan Mizel seminar…It was the last
Boulder seminar, which is legendary. Everyone was at this conference, and I
was lucky enough to be part of it.
This is what put me on the map. I had much knowledge, but the public wasn’t
aware of it. And Ken McCarthy gave me the opportunity to display my
knowledge. It put me on the map and I’m very, very grateful to Ken and to
Yanik.
Yanik introduced me to Ken. I was sitting there at lunch and they interviewed
me. And I revealed all the up sell secrets I’d learned in the infomercial
business…How to take products that were doing mediocre and take them
over-the-top because of the up sell and the up sell alone.
Because the up sell is the single easiest sale you can make.
Once you have a “sale,” at the point of sale it’s very, very simple to sell
more. So the CD is one hour and it’s worth $79…although it cost me 73 cents
to produce. And I say, “Who in this room wants this free?”
I tell them, “If you have an audiocassette, take the content and digitize it”
which is exactly what I had done with the Up Sell Secrets interview which
was originally in audiocassette form.” We used a cheap audiocassette
recorder to record it, and we digitized it, we improved the quality of the
sound.
And I say, “How much is this cassette worth to you?” Some people say $10
and some people say $20. I say, “What would you pay for this CD-Rom?”
And there’s a picture of me and it says Up Sell Marketing Secrets. And
people say, “I don’t know, $99.” And I say, “Well, it’s $79. Now, who wants
this CD-Rom free?” And all the hands go up.
Dan:
Of course.
Alex:
And I say, “Here’s what I need you to do. Go to the order page right
now and check off that bonus gift. Do not check off the other bonus gifts
because they’re reserved only for my mentoring students that I’ll be taking at
the end of this presentation.”
That gets people to try out something before I close the sale. The free CD acts
as a tool to encourage people to buy. Do you see what I’m saying? I take
them right to the order form.
And that’s not even a pitch because I’m giving them something free. I’m
simply getting them acquainted with the order form. And then most of the
room…about 80% of the people…wants that CD-Rom, which cost me 73
cents. Th ey give me their email address and their name, and now I have a
$4,000 lead. That is the way I build my list. Can you see why my list is so
valuable?
Dan:
Crystal clear, Alex. Some marketers have a list for 50,000
prospects. But they only make $10,000 from the list. And I think because of
that is the leads are just not qualified.
Alex:
Lists of unqualified leads have no value. The people on my list have
watched me speak for an hour and a half. They know they can trust me; they
understand me and believe me.
And so when it’s the right time they will do business with me.
Dan:
Correct me if I’m wrong, Alex, but it sounds to me that you like to
combine online mar- keting methods with offline. Is that true?
Alex:
You bet it is. I believe the Internet is just another distribution
channel. It’s not the only distribution channel. I think it’s more appealing to
me as a communication channel, because email is free. So I use offline and
online.
I sell a hard copy product. People laughed at me, but I started outselling hard
products. I feel I started selling my hard product before Corey Rudl started
selling the hard version of his course.
I did mine in the year 2000; I was one of the first to sell a physical, three-ring
binder called Marketing With Postcard s. I think I’m one of the pioneers of
selling a hard product to the Internet marketing community. And I asked
$247 for it.
I know I was the first to do a down-sell for an exit pop-up if they didn’t “buy
in.” And that gets another $2,000 to $3,000 a month in profits for me.
Dan:
I agree with you. I think a digital product -- let’s say an e-book, for
$397 or $497 -- is a tough sell on the Internet because people are used to
paying $30, $40, and $50 for a regular book.
Alex:
And they can’t curl up on their couch and highlight, and do the
same things they could do with a physical product. So I sell a physical
product, too. Plus, you get fewer returns with a physical product because it’s
more of a headache.
Dan:
Interesting! Okay. Now, Alex, since you’re a web conversion
specialist, I want you to answer this. Let’s say I have a web site. It’s getting
some traffic, but it’s not converting well. What are some of the things I can
do to improve my web traffic conversion rate?
Alex:
First, you need audio on that web site. You need to invite them in
.You need audio at the opt-in box; you need audio at the guarantee. You need
audio at the bonus gifts.
If people leave the site you need audio on the exit pop-ups. So audio is big.
The next thing you need is an exit pop-up. You need to find out why they’re
leaving. You need to take a survey. Then, as soon as you get that information,
because it’s so interactive, you can change the copy on your landing page to
suit the conversation that’s going on in the mind of the visitor.
You also need an opt-in box. You need a way to capture a “shy yes.” A “shy
yes” is a maybe for a sale. An opt-in doesn’t ask you to “buy now” it just
requests a first name and an email address…but that’s the first “yes” on the
way to a sale.
You need a privacy policy, but you need to put it right at the point of action,
or the POA. Which means by the opt-in box. There are many examples of
this. If you go to www.wealthdiva.com, you will see a good five-word
privacy policy. It says, “We respect your email privacy.” And you need that.
Next, it doesn’t hurt to have anchor tags. Anchor tags are like bookmarks so
people read more of your copy.
You need a guarantee like any great direct mail offer would have. You need
bonus gifts. You need an order page. I’m going to have a teleconference next
week on just order page strategies, because order pages are very powerful.
You need testimonials, and if you can make them audio testimonials, even
better.
You need a headline, obviously. You need sub headlines to break up the
copy. And you need benefits.
You need an FAQ, and I’m going to talk about FAQs right now because I
think FAQs are the single most important part of a web site. They stand for
Frequently Asked Questions.
Before I write one word of copy, when I’m staring at a blank screen or a
blank sheet of paper, I start with the FAQs. Because if I know the
conversations in the minds of my visitors, then I know exactly the power that
I can take advantage of with my words.
So the FAQ gets my thinking into the minds of my readers and visitors,
versus just thinking in my own head and wondering what benefits they can
take advantage of. So FAQ is usually how I start my web site.
Those are some of the things that are most important to a web site. You can
go
to
web
sites
like
www.marketingwithpostcards.com,
copywritingcoach.com,
www.mindmotivators.com,
www.marketingbraindump.com,
www.audiogenerator.com,
www.oneshopping- cart.com to find all of these elements and ideas you can
borrow from.
Dan:
So, people who visit your web
www.marketingwithpostcards.com, can get in touch with you?
sites
and
Alex:
Actually, the best way to get in touch with me is to send an email to
alex@askmylist.com. If you want to call me, you can reach me at 415-3821212. If it’s the first call, it makes sense for you to tell me how you heard
about me or who referred you.
I have open hours on Mondays, Wednesdays and Thursdays, from 11 AM
Pacific Time in the U.S. to 2 PM Pacific Time in the U.S. Those are the only
times I have open time.
Other times I am writing copy and working with clients.
Dan:
Okay. Now, Alex, just before we close, tell our listeners two of
your biggest success secrets.
Alex:
Okay. One of my biggest success secrets is on day one of an
autoresponder sequence, I ask the person to make a new email folder
depending on what I’m selling.
I have a client called Fantasy Football. They have a lot of natural, ride-in
traffic to the tune of about 12,000 to 13,000 natural, ride-in traffic people a
day. Which means people don’t even go to search engines; they go to the
browser and type in fantasy football. It’s a game, and men usually play it, and
it’s the most obsessive game on the planet during foot- ball season.
Well, what I did for Fantasy Football, besides doing a makeover on their site,
was to create an autoresponder so the moment that you opted-in, a sequence
told you, the opt-in subscriber, to create a new email folder in their Hotmail
account, in their Pegasus account, in their Eudora account, in their Outlook or
Outlook Express account.
It doesn’t matter what email client they have. I told them to type in “! Fantasy
Football” with an exclamation point because I’m going to send them tips over
the next few weeks and I want them to read them and put them in this folder.
Do you know what happens when you make an email folder that uses an
exclamation point and then your name?
Dan:
No. What happens?
Alex:
Magic! First, an exclamation point at the beginning of a title
prioritizes that email folder so it automatically is listed at the top of all
folders. Do you understand what I’m saying?
Dan:
Yes, yes…and I can see that it’s huge.
Alex:
This approach is how you can brand yourself and burn your brand
into the mind of that person who’s receiving email from you every time they
open their email account. They don’t even have to receive an email from you
to be aware of your presence. You’re there…at the top of their folder list.
That’s the single most important tip I could ever give to anyone. I do the
same thing with Marketing With Postcards.
If you want to see the way it works, then go opt in at
www.marketingwithpostcards.com and get the three free chapters. You’ll see
this “branding” concept at work as soon as you opt in…instantly.
Dan:
And since you’ve instructed them to keep all your email messages
in the folder, it’s possible that they’ll go back and read it again and again and
again.
Alex:
Exactly, Dan. That is especially why it’s so import ant. The
exclamation point gets higher precedence than an &, a $, a %…Trust me,
I’ve tried them all. The exclamation point is it. It’s better than a number.
So I do “! Marketing With Postcards,” and I ask all my coaching clients to
use “! Alex Mandossian” because I want them to remember me. Then boom!
I’m at the top of the list. Do you understand what I’m saying?
Dan:
Yes, wonderful. What’s your other secret?
Alex:
Okay. The most important thing you could possibly do to your web
site is to have an audio exit pop. I did the world’s first one at
www.audiogenerator.com with Airmen Moran, my good friend. It says:
“Wait! Before you go, what’s the single biggest reason you’re leaving us
without giving Audio Generator a free try?”
By having that audio, it brings people’s faces the screen and it captures their
interest. It’s very, very important. Without the audio, it only has half the
traction…people respond only 50% of the time. I can double the response just
by adding the audio.
Dan:
How about one bonus?
Alex:
Please! Add audio to your order page. At www.audiogenerator.com
we tripled the con- version of that order page. We didn’t change a single
word, but all we did was add audio. That’s it, end of story.
Dan:
Amazing.
Alex:
That’s how powerful sound is.
Dan:
Okay. Alex, you’ve been very generous and shared much valuable
information. I’ve learned a lot from you. I want to thank you on behalf of
myself and everyone who’s “listening in.” It’s been a great interview.
Maria Veloso - Author of Web Copy
That Sells
Maria is widely recognized as the leading expert in web copywriting, and the
premier advocate of frame-of-mind marketing™.
Celebrated by copywriting legends and marketing greats like Jay Conrad
Levinson (Guerrilla Marketing) and Joe Sugarman (JS&A), this 25-year
veteran of copywriting and direct marketing has developed a unique model of
direct-response web copywriting that has consistently been proven to sell a
wide array of products and services on the We b.
Fellow copywriters have dubbed her as the “killer copywriter” and “the bestkept copy- writing secret on the Web” -- and she has become one of the most
sought-after specialists of web traffic conversion in the industry. Her
reputation for writing compelling web copy is well-known in Internet
marketing circles.
Through her unique model of web copywriting, she has sold several million
dollars’ worth of products and services for her online clients -- sometimes
selling a few thousand copies of a book in a single day, and sometimes
$18,000 worth of e-classes in 2 days.
She has also written e-mails and marketing communications that have
resulted in half a million dollars worth of seminar seats. Through the sheer
power of web copy, she has sold everything from consumable products to
software to information products.
Maria Veloso started her copywriting career in 1977 when she worked as an
Advertising Copywriter for a subsidiary of the famed Ogilvy and Mather.
Over the past 2 decades, she has covered the full spectrum of copywriting -including catalog copy, direct-mail copy, sales brochures, advertorials,
newsletters, marketing communications and press releases.
In 1996, when the World Wide Web was just beginning to gain popularity,
she started specializing in what has recently emerged as one of the hottest
professions on the Internet -- web copywriting.
Her most recent designation was that of Director of Creative Web Writing for
Aesop Marketing Corporation (a major Internet marketing company
spearheaded by Mark Joyner), where she was involved not only in writing
web copy, but also in scientific marketing, ad tracking and market testing.
Because of her extensive background, she has come to know exactly what
works and what doesn’t work on the Internet -- and this has been the basis for
the development of her signature brand of direct-response web copywriting.
Maria: Hey, Dan, I’m so happy to be here.
Dan:
Now, Maria, I know you’ve been a copywriter for over twenty-five
years now. Yet you’ve managed to keep your name out of until the last
couple of years. Is there a reason for that and why has it changed?
Maria: Yes, Dan, in fact I’ve enjoyed relative anonymity for many years.
I’ve been hiding behind the names of famous people for whom I’ve written
copy, as you know, and it actually gives new meaning to the phrase “Behind
every great man is a great copywriter.” Don’t you think?
Dan:
That’s right.
Maria: Anyways, yes, I’ve been writing copy for the last twenty-five years.
The masters of influence and neurolinguistic programming and direct mail,
like Robert Cialdini and Richard Bandler and John Grinder, influenced my
direct response copywriting and I’m sure you’ve heard of John Caples?
Dan:
Oh, yes.
Maria: David Ogilvy, Richard Worth, Robert Collier and so many others.
So I’m no different from other copywriters in that respect because we learned
from these giants in copy- writing. So what happened was in late 1995, when
the Internet was just gaining popularity, I started specializing in writing copy
specifically for the web.
Now, my name was still relatively unknown at the time because I continued
to write on behalf of my clients and high-profile employers, like Mark Joyner
and Jay Conrad Levinson, Joe Sugarman and many others.
And so I managed to keep my name out of the limelight. And actually, Dan, I
was quite content writing web copy for other people and with great success, I
might add.
So I was gaining a reputation but only among the inner circles of people who
actually wanted me to write web copy for them. So that was limited. But in
the middle of last year, two friends of mine…You know Alex Mendoza, I
think he’s part of this audio course of yours.
Dan:
That’s right.
Maria: My friend Alex Mendoza and Joel Christopher took me out of my
incognito status, so to speak, and make a celebrity out of me. What they did
is they announced my existence to the world. How Alex did that was he
started recommending my web copywriting services to all of his clients, and
he was speaking so highly of me whenever possible in all the many
teleseminars that he conducted. And then Joe, on the other hand…Joel
Christopher. Do you know him?
Dan:
Yes.
Maria:
Okay, Joe Christopher urged me to found a web copywriting
university and teach people the copywriting principles that I know. So to
make a long story short, I just started gaining so much visibility late last year,
about August or September of last year.
Especially when more and more people started finding out that I had written
some of the most celebrated website copy pages that have sold millions of
dollars of products and services.
On top of that my web copywriting mastery course, which I offer at my web
copywriting university, has made me the talk of the town. It even caught the
attention of a literary agent, and then later a prestigious New York book
publisher.
Dan:
Wow.
Maria:
You have a copy of the electronic version of my booklet…The
New York publisher is working as we speak to get that book into the
publishing list for 2004.
So again, you might say that it was never my intention to become famous. I
was perfectly happy with the substantial earnings I had made while in the
sidelines writing for others.
I was kind of forced out of hiding through all these circumstances. So that’s
in answer to your question.
Dan:
Now, Maria, why did you decide to specialize in web copywriting,
and are there really differences between writing for the web and writing copy
for the brick and mortar world?
Maria:
Well, two great questions there, Dan, and I’m happy to answer
them, of course.
Well, I said earlier that my copywriting background dates from 1977, twentyfive years ago. And then I stepped into advertising by working as a
copywriter for an overseas subsidiary of Ogilvy and Mather.
Dan:
Wow.
Maria: So you’ve heard of the reputation of David Ogilvy, I’m sure, the
grandfather of advertising. So I started with a prestigious company. I did
learn the ropes, and that was my first job right out of college.
Since then I have always been involved with copywriting and marketing in
one way or another. I’ve either been an employee of a company or an agency,
or I’ve been a self- employed entrepreneur.
In fact, Dan, I even ran my own mail order company in the late ‘80s and early
‘90s, and of course I wrote all the copy for my mail order catalogs and
whatnot.
So I’ve had many direct marketing successes and I’ve had some failures, too,
just like anybody else who’s ever done direct marketing.
But the thing about direct marketing is there were always very high costs,
very steep costs involved with getting into it. If you didn’t already have a
mailing list, for instance, you had to rent the list. If you didn’t already write
copy you had to hire a copywriter.
Luckily, I was already a copywriter so I never had to bear that expense. Then
you had to produce the mail pieces, the catalogs or sales letters. Then you had
to mail those out to your list, and that mailing, of course, was almost always
the greatest expense.
So I’ve had a chance to have had as much as half a million dollars or more
riding on the success of one single mailing. So if it bombed, they would be
out that much money. Then, of course, there was the cost of testing. As you
know, every direct marketer that is worth his salt knows that testing is the
component that can either make or break a marketing campaign, right?
Dan:
Absolutely.
Maria: You don’t just run one sales letter, one ad and not test it ever. No,
you just don’t do it that way. You can’t just send out one mailing and that’s
that.
You have to test the headlines, test the offer, test the guarantee, test the price,
test as many elements as you could, making sure that you’re testing only one
variable at a time.
Can you imagine how expensive this gets? So you know what’s pulling and
what’s not pulling.
And all of that was so you could come up with a controlled key. I’m sure you
know what that means but for the benefit of those who are listening to this
interview, a controlled key is the sales key that you end up with after you’ve
tested everything.
And it’s the one that has all the winning components that pulls in the highest
number of sales consistently more than any other combination of elements.
Now, guess where that puts you expense-wise?
So you’ve got to understand direct marketing in the brick and mortar world is
not for the fainthearted. I’ve seen people spend their life savings and they still
don’t make enough money to cover the investment.
But because somewhere in the testing process something happens…This has
happened to me before, where I start testing and I know that something is
pulling and something is not working, and I don’t have enough money to find
out what those things are.
People lose their financial wherewithal, or their financial stamina to go on, so
they fall short of achieving the earnings that individuals and companies with
deep pockets and big budgets make. Just because they didn’t have money to
play the game. So you understand what I’m getting at?
Dan:
Yes.
Maria: Why am I telling you this? I just want to tell you, just to add drama
to the fact that when I discovered the Internet in late 1995 (I don’t remember
the day I discovered the Internet), but when I found out what was on the
Internet and I realized the unprecedented marketing arena that this
represented to direct marketers everywhere - not just myself - well, I just
about flipped.
You now, of course, that I wasn’t alone in thinking of that.
Anybody who was a marketer in any way, shape or form realized that,
because the Internet is the only place where you can market everyday, on the
Internet, at little or no cost and have the potential of making a killing.
So those people who didn’t have the finances to stay in direct mail or
compete in direct mail now jump on the Internet bandwagon.
So that’s a given; everyone knows who that happens. So there you go.
Like the tens of thousands of other people who had the same idea I also got
busy slap- ping on to my offline marketing materials, like my sales letters,
my brochures, my ads, you name it…I was slapping them on my website,
slapping them onto emails, classifieds…whatever place I could find. So I had
a degree of success.
Dan, I actually made a full-time income back in 1995 and 1996, until about
1997 or so. And especially, do you remember…How long have you been on
the web, Dan?
Dan:
Wow…I started in 1997.
Maria: Okay. Those were the days when SPAM was still tolerated on the
web. When SPAM became outlawed…I must admit I did indulge in a little
bit of SPAM, just like everybody who started as early as I did, because I
thought it was acceptable.
I actually found my earnings shrank, too, because I didn’t really know what
was working on the web.
All we knew is we could send a million emails at the touch of a button and
when we couldn’t do that any longer we were without any alternatives.
So that’s when I realized, Dan, the saying…Have you heard the saying
“Marketing is marketing”?
Dan:
Yes.
Maria: Many gurus like saying marketing is marketing whether it’s on the
web or offline in the brick and mortar world. Actually, that saying is false
when it comes to the Internet.
What works in the brick and mortar world does not necessarily work online,
and I’ll tell you why.
Because the web has a culture, has a mindset, and has a psychology and
language that’s all it’s own. Now, I didn’t start writing my famous web copy
pieces that sold like crazy until I learned how that culture, mindset,
psychology and language of the web worked.
Now, I’ll give you an example of that, Dan. Let’s take a quick look at, let’s
say a typical sales letter and everything you’ve learned about writing sales
letters. Now the marketing rules would have you believe the most read part of
the sales letter is the what?
Dan:
Maria:
letter?
Dan:
The headline.
The headline. And what is the second most-read part of a sales
P.S.
Maria: The P.S…isn’t that what everybody knows? I believe that and I still
do, because a sales letter is three-dimensional. It exists in a three-dimensional
space; therefore it is viewed in a special perspective.
So, let’s say that when you receive a sales letter it’s three-dimensional, you
have it in your hand - even if it’s multiple pages you have it in your hand and you have complete control over all of it. You see all the pages at once.
You can turn it over; you can go to the PS immediately.
You can do whatever you want to it because it’s three-dimensional. It exists
in the real world.
Now, try putting that same sales letter on a website. It’s a totally different
ballpark. See why?
Because it’s now a two-dimensional universe. The sales letter that you put on
the web- site doesn’t exist in the three-dimensional space the sales letter in
the mail exists in.
Let’s say, for example, you don’t see all the pages at once. What is the only
thing you see when you arrive at a website?
Dan:
Mmm…The headline.
Maria: Actually, not just the headline but the first screen. You don’t even
see the sales letter.
Dan:
Right, I see the header or the headline…
Maria: Right, the header or the headline, or whatever can fit in the reader’s
screen. So I think the first screenful, everything the web reader sees when
arriving at your site, that is the prime real estate of the website.
So, again, it’s not even the first page of your sales letter that you have there.
Sometimes the first screenful is the first and the last thing that people see
when they get to your website. Because sometimes what you put in your first
screenful is not compelling enough for them to stay.
So that’s why I say that it’s such a different way of viewing things on the
web.
You cannot see it the way you see a sales letter because you see sales letter in
a totally different way.
And then, obviously for now this leads into the P.S. Do you still think the
P.S. is the sec- ond most important part of the sales letter on the web?
Dan:
Probably not.
Maria: Because some people may never even get there. Because they can’t
just turn the page and get to the P.S. directly.
Dan:
They have to scroll down to the bottom.
Maria:
That’s right, if they even get there or if they’re even interested
enough to get there.
So the P.S. becomes not as important as it is in a direct mail sales letter. I’m
just pointing out one difference.
What I’m trying to show is that just because something is true for offline
marketing doesn’t mean it is true for online marketing.
Let me give you a specific example and this is how I really learned it the hard
way. Because I’m like most marketers, I was very hard headed; I wanted to
think that whatever I did offline would work just as successfully offline.
Dan:
That’s right.
Maria: Isn’t it true? Is it true for you, too, Dan?
Dan:
It’s true for me, too.
Maria: There you go. Let me give you an example that will disprove that
undoubtedly, which means that without any doubt it will disprove what we
just talked about.
There is one very famous, perhaps the most famous direct marketer, a
legendary direct marketer, whom I shall not name for obvious reasons, who
simply wrote a sales letter. He showed us when I was working in the business
with Mark Joyner at Aesop, a sales letter that had a double-digit conversion.
It was sent via direct mail.
That direct mail piece was sent to his short l i st, not even his full list. Now,
having a double-digit conversion, as you know in direct marketing…
Dan:
It’s amazing.
Maria:
It’s absolutely awesome. Hardly anybody gets that. Usually just
three or four percent, and that’s it.
Dan:
They should be dancing if they get three or four percent.
Maria: And they were dancing.
And in fact they thought that if they came to us at Aesop, we had two million
people on our mailing list, they were exactly the market they were looking
for…and if they had a two-digit conversion they’d make a killing, right?
So because this marketer was so big on testing and controlled piece and
everything he would not let Aesop - because I wrote all the sales copy for
Aesop during my two years there - he won’t let me touch one word.
We had to run his sales letter word-for-word on the website, and all I did was
write the email to direct people to read that sales letter on that website. So
guess what happened. Guess what the conversion was.
Dan:
It should be pretty good.
Maria: It should be, right? Less than 1/10th of 1% conversion. Less than
1/10th of 1%?? Less than 1/10th of 1% conversion on our highly targeted list
of two million people.
So you can see the Internet is a different medium altogether. Because
something works well doesn’t mean that it’s going to work online.
Now, does that mean that sales letters won’t ever sell anything on the
Internet? No. They will sell, but what I’m saying is they will not sell as well
as if they were written in a way the Internet public reads, that’s what I think.
And I’ll tell you more of that as we go along.
So again, to summarize, when someone receives a direct mail sales letter,
sure, that piece competes for attention, right? And what does it compete with?
When you receive a direct mail sales letter, what does that compete with?
Other pieces.
Dan:
Yeah, other mail.
Maria: Mail that you got on that day, right? And that might be a lot of
mail, but it couldn’t possibly be as much as you get on the web. So let’s say
they got twenty pieces of mail; so your direct mail piece is competing with
twenty pieces of mail. Some of them are junk mail; some of them are
personal mail, what have you.
But listen to this: A website, instead of competing with twenty pieces of mail
is competing with every single website that’s on the Internet right now.
All these websites that are beckoning and clamoring for attention. Do you
know how many website they are?
Dan:
Millions.
Maria: Well, actually, as far as websites, there are…depending on who you
believe there are about 65 million websites, and 3 billion web pages,
according to Guber’s.
So the webpages are the pages that comprise the website, but as far as
websites go with multiple pages, there are 65 million of those.
Now, whether those websites are competing with you directly or not they’re
still a competitor. Why? Because of the attention.
When people come to your website, what’s in the back of their head is “There
are 65 million websites I can still visit.” So, in other words, the competition
on the Internet is not fear; it’s deadly.
So if you don’t communicate in a way that’s absolutely killer, absolutely
compelling and irresistible to the Internet buying population, your sales
message will fall on deaf ears. Again, why? Because people online do not
have the same personality they have when they’re offline.
Dan:
Now, hold there, hold there. People have a different personality
when they’re… Actually, maybe personality isn’t the right word, but they
have a different mindset. Okay, interesting.
Maria: Let me tell you how that works. People online do not want to get
sold. This is a proven fact and it’s documented by a study conducted by John
Morris and Jacob Nielsen.
Those are the two top usability experts on the net. If web visitors are sold on
some- thing, they first want to feel connected.
They want to be informed on something, they want to be entertained, and not
just bombarded with blatant advertising that says, “Buy Me, Click Here
Now.” Okay?
Also, here’s something else: People on the web don’t read. Did you know
that? People on the web don’t read; they scan.
Dan:
Yeah.
Maria: Yeah, makes sense, right? Again, Nielsen proved that. They even
have monitors to take a look at how people’s eyes move on the web. So
people scan.
The look of your website and the web copy that you put on your website
makes a big difference in whether someone reads your material or not.
So again, these are problems you don’t face when writing a sales letter for the
offline world. There are specific challenges for writing on the web that don’t
exist in the offline world.
On the other hand, there are also challenges that exist in the offline world that
don’t exist on the web. So, again, just because you know one doesn’t mean
you know both.
Copy on the web needs to have what I call sexy formatting. That doesn’t
mean sexy girls, or sexy pictures of girls around. Sexy formatting means that
your copy needs to be inviting.
It has to look inviting, not daunting like tons of text people don’t want to read
because it reminds them of a textbook.
And here’s the thing, Dan, get this one because not everybody knows this:
Even the width of your web copy is important. The width of your web copy
area is very important.
At Aesop, when I worked there as the director of web writing, the width of
our copy area was usually between 550 to 600 pixels wide. And that width is
pretty narrow compared to the total width of the screen.
Dan:
Yep.
Maria: And most marketers, what they do is they simply start writing copy
and slap it on. Then their readers have to read from one end of the screen to
the other end of the screen, and sometimes they even have to use their scroll
bar left to right.
Copy is more inviting to read when it’s 550 to 600 pixels wide because your
eyes don’t have to work so hard.
And then, of course, your neck doesn’t have to swivel back and forth like
this, or God forbid, you hand doesn’t have to scroll that scroll bar from left to
right just to read it. Because that will really deter people from what you have
to sell, right?
So I could go on and on about the differences. But the answer to your
question about whether there are differences between writing copy for the
web and writing copy for the brick and mortar world, my answer is
unequivocally yes.
Dan:
Okay. Now, Maria, I know you have a six-feature model of writing
web copy which you trademarked Web Copy That Sells. And it’s quite
different from the way the others write copy. How did you develop this
model of web copywriting and what makes it so effective when it comes to
marketing on the web?
Maria: Oh, another great question. Thank you for asking that. I love telling
the story of how I stumbled on this; it almost literally fell on my lap. Here’s
how it happened: In the year 2000…I started doing Internet marketing in late
‘95, ‘96 and I started doing that until the year 2000.
I told you I did not understand why, but in my initial years when SPAM was
allowed I had full-time income on the Internet, and I still had full-time
income thereafter but it didn’t come quite as easily.
At that time I did not know why until the year 2000 when I had the great
fortune of meeting Mark Joyner.
I don’t remember the email I wrote to Mark. I don’t tell this story very often
but, Dan, I want to tell you and your listeners.
Dan:
Thank you.
Maria: Do you know the subject line of my email to Mark? Here’s how it
reads: Mark…Here are the top ten reasons you should have me working for
you…And then of course he opens the email and he reads the ten reasons I
would be an excellent copywriter for him.
And, of course, that riveted Mark’s attention, because then Mark Joyner was
writing all his copy himself.
He never had a copywriter; he never hired a copywriter in his life. And he
had a multimillion-dollar company already at that time, and he was just
beginning to see that because of the workload he needed help.
But he did have his reservations about hiring me as a copywriter or any
copywriter, for that matter, because he was afraid that no one would be able
to write in his marketing style.
You know that Mark Joyner has his own distinct marketing style, right? And
it’s a very good one, too, if I might add.
So what he did is he received my email, he called me on the phone after
reading my resume, and this is what he said: “You know, Maria, I really like
your email. It sure caught my attention, but here’s what I can tell you: I
cannot promise you that I’m going to give you a copywriting job here. In
fact, if you become the copywriter here it will be the most miserable job in
the world because you have me to please. And I’m hard to please. But let’s
meet over lunch and we’ll talk and see if we can work together.”
So, in other words he was giving me a way to let me down easy. In case he
doesn’t like me or my work he doesn’t have to hire me.
I met him for lunch and I brought my copywriting samples with me, and
before our lunch had even reached our table he had hired me on the spot as
his lead copywriter. So that’s how I came to work for Mark Joyner.
Why is that important? See, to make a long story short, again…I worked for
Mark for two solid years, but when I first started working for Mark he
realized that I was a killer copywriter. You know how he knew that? Because
I wrote a six-page copy piece that made $18,000 in two days.
Dan:
Wow. $18,000 in two days?
Maria: In two days. And that was one of the first three things that I wrote
for Mark. So he knew right off the bat that he hired the right person.
So he started calling me a world-class copywriter, he was heaping
complements on me and I was felling on top of the world myself because I
had a lot of respect for Mark Joyner.
And for him to say I was a killer copywriter meant something to me. So
here’s the thing: What he was most amazed by was the fact that when I wrote
copy for him I copied his exact style of writing, and my copy looked as
though he had written it himself.
So before long I was promoted to head director of creative writing, but here’s
where my story really comes to life.
It was while I was working for Mark Joyner for those two solid years, the
beginning of 2000 until the end of 2001, that I had the best web copywriting
education of my career.
Do you know why?
Because it was only by working for a company like Aesop with it’s huge
mailing list and its great products and services, and the money they could
invest in marketing theory, that my eyes really opened about what works and
what doesn’t work in Internet marketing. Okay?
Now, I’m going to tell you something and this normally blows people’s
minds.
There were times when, on any given day, I would write a simple email to
our list, and all the email would say is I’m directing them to click through to
a website (on which I wrote the copy, of course).
And we’d click on the send button just before we left for the day.
All of us left work at four or four- thirty in the afternoon; that’s when we’d
stop working at Aesop. So we would press the send button and send out the
email. The next morning when we came back to work we’d find that
thousands of orders had come in overnight from that mailing.
Now, before anybody gets two thousand orders and up in any given day…
that is a hard thing to do. In fact, just so you know, for instance if we sold an
e-book and we got two thousand orders, do you realize that’s more orders
than an Amazon #1 Bestseller sells in a day?
Dan:
That’s right.
Maria:
You can be an Amazon.com #1 Bestseller for as little as 1,200
copies of your book sold in one day.
At Aesop we did more than that on any given day, especially if the product
we happened to sell…By the way, we launched one new product, on the
average, every week, for which I wrote all the copy. So for me that’s mindboggling.
And again, I would never have known the power and importance of the
Internet firsthand until I plugged in my own writing skills with the Aesop
resources.
How would I know? Even if I were the best copywriter in the world I
wouldn’t have known that unless I had a company that was able to test if
what I did was correct.
So again, on the average we launched one new product each week at Aesop,
so the copy- writing demands were pretty fierce for me, but that’s also how I
really got good at this.
Because, see, as time went on we tested everything, we found out what
worked and what didn’t work so it became much easier for me. Every time I
wrote copy there it became easier and easier and easier because I didn’t have
to start from scratch all over again. I only had to fix the components, the
elements that we knew, through our testing, worked. Does that make sense to
you, Dan?
Dan:
Yes.
Maria: So, okay. Consider this, too: Our mailing lists at Aesop were, like I
said…They sold close to two million people. So because of the size of the list
we had the luxury of testing our marketing theories and our copy on random
test samples that were twenty thousand people large.
So, in other words, you know how in direct marketing you have to have test
samples? And they’ll do split testing, right?
Which means they’ll send, let’s say they send headline #1 to the A Group,
and they send headline #2 to the B Group.
And whichever one wins they will roll out to the rest of their list, right?
Well, our test samples were twenty thousand people large. You know, most
people on the Internet don’t even have go to lists that are twenty thousand.
But at Aesop, twenty thousand was just our test niche, okay?
So, in other words, sometimes we would test five different headlines. So
twenty thousand people would see headline A, twenty thousand would see
headline B, twenty thousand would see headline C, twenty thousand would
see headline D, and the E would get another twenty. And whichever was the
winner of those five would be rolled out to the two million.
Now, you see we did that because if it were smaller it wouldn’t have made a
large difference.
But when you’re using a list of twenty thousand, then you know whatever
results you get are conclusive. So that’s the reason we were able to maximize
our profits at Aesop; because we tested first before we rolled out.
So, again, we tested everything. We tested headlines, we tested the guarantee,
we tested the pricing, we tested the offer.
Remember, testing on the web…Remember when we were talking about
testing earlier in the brick and mortar world?
Dan:
Maria:
Mm-hmm.
How much money that costs? Because, first, mailing costs a lot of
money.
One mailing costs a lot of money; and if you have to redo that mailing just to
test another headline, that’s an equal amount of money, and so on and so
forth. Now, on the net, testing does have some cost.
There is cost but nowhere near the financial investment that’s needed in the
brick and mortar world. Do you agree with me, Dan?
Dan:
Yes, absolutely.
Maria: Okay. And why is that? Because there’s such a thing as email!
Dan:
That’s right.
Maria: Email does not require a postage stamp or an envelope, or paper to
mail your sales letters, right?
The Internet is more responsive with testing. Because of the speed of email,
instead of snail mail, you can get the outcomes of tests in hours, not weeks.
Because people are going to get email and then you know right away whether
they’re buying or not buying.
I’ll give you an example of a test that we did that was so eye-opening. We did
a testing of a random sample, twenty thousand large, where we were selling
an e-book.
We were selling an e-book on the web this particular week, but we didn’t
know what price to sell it at. We tested four prices. We sent twenty thousand
people to our website that had the price at $27; we sent twenty thousand
people to our site that had it at $47; and then another twenty thousand to the
one that had a $97 price; and another twenty thousand were sent to a $197
price for the same e-book. Do you know which one we rolled out because it
won?
Dan:
Maria:
$97?
Close, Dan! How about $197? So what I’m trying to say to you is
that testing on the Internet is so inexpensive considering that you could be
making 700% on the same product if you didn’t test.
What if we never tested and we just sold it at $27? Then we wouldn’t have
gotten $197 that we could…We could have gotten more orders at $197 than
we would have at $27, so where does that money go? Nowhere. We’re
leaving that money on the table.
So, again, all these things at Aesop convinced me that I could be specializing
in this. That’s when I realized I would never write copy for the offline world.
This information I was learning daily at Aesop was information that no one
was privy to, except for me and Mark Joyner, and the small marketing team
we had. In other words, I was telling you earlier:
Many of the e-books we sold would sell a couple of thousand copies a day,
where Amazon.com only needed 1,200 books sold in a day to become a best
seller.
But here’s the important thing with all this. Why am I telling you this?
As Mark Joyner always said: Although the testing is tedious…Because, yeah,
it gets tedious.
It’s not expensive but it does get tedious, and it requires a lot of hours
sometimes to tabulate and analyze the data. And then sometimes you arrive at
a conclusion that seems insignificant, but the repercussions are so farreaching and they’re always mind-boggling.
I’ll give you an example. For instance, we were trying to test to see if sending
out the email on a certain day was better than on other days.
Now, remember, at that time most of the marketing gurus were saying
Wednesday was the best day to send out email. And why is that?
Because they were using their logic.
Their logic was: Okay, people don’t normally check their email on the
weekend because they’re busy going out, and on Monday people will be
doing a lot of work (because they have several phone calls to return and
things to do), so they don’t have time to check their email. And Tuesday they
start, but Wednesday is really the hot ticket, right?
That’s an educated guess. The educated guesses don’t work on the Internet,
okay?
So, at Aesop it took quite a bit of testing to find out that Friday is the best day
to send out email. Friday emails out-pulled - and when I say out-pulled it
means they were opened more and clicked through to the website 89% more
than the workday.
So, in other words, the best day, Friday, out-pulled the worst day by 89%.
And guess what the worst day was?
Dan:
I don’t know…Wednesday?
Maria: Yes!! That’s why I’m saying educated guesses mean nothing. We
did our homework and we went through the trouble of testing it.
When we sent it to our list of twenty thousand apiece we found out Friday
was the best day. Now, it doesn’t seem like a big deal. Okay, so what? So
what if you know that Friday is a good day for mailing?
Well, in a single mailing, Dan, that may not produce a significant difference
in your earnings. But, when you apply that concept, that finding with every
mailing from here until whenever, from here on in, those addition sales have
a compound effect.
So in the long run you’re going to earn so much more money from knowing
Friday is the best day.
And I want you to know Dan that when I say Friday was the best day we
found for sending emails, don’t take that as gospel truth.
Because, for me, this is true for our market, our market of Internet marketers.
Now, let’s say your product has nothing to do with Internet marketers; maybe
Friday will not be the best day.
For instance, for people who are coaches, Monday is a good day. People who
are professional coaches…I happen to know that because I work with a client
who is in the coaching field, and his tests show that Monday is the best day.
I’m just telling you the marketing intelligence that we have gathered for this
particular market.
So if you’re market happens to be Internet marketers, Friday it is. But again, I
always go for you have to come up with your own marketing intelligence
based on your own tests.
You’re going to be amazed at what you find out. What we did was we
discovered many things that consistently were coming up as the things that
actually worked on the net.
So, to summarize everything I’m saying to you right now, because I worked
for Aesop Marketing Corporation and since I worked for Mark Joyner - who,
in my opinion, is a marketing genius, by the way - I developed this signature
model of web copy writing that Mark Joyner paid me to sell. So this is the
answer to your “why did it take me this long” question.
Dan:
No, it’s a great story, a great story.
Maria: Okay, good. Basically this trademark signature model that I use is a
derivative. I derived it from the same editorial-type of marketing that I
created for the two years I worked for Mark Joyner, which I knew produced
some heavy-duty sales.
Modesty aside, Dan, I received countless emails from people who told me
they printed out all the web copy pieces I have written over the last three
years…
Dan:
Maria, I am one of them.
Maria: Oh, you are?
Dan:
I am one of them.
Maria: That is a wonderful complement to me, and I’m too amazed that
people do that. But thank you for that complement, I appreciate it. They say
that they print out everything I’ve ever written, and they study them
intensely, and then they keep them in their copy- writing swipe files.
Dan:
That’s right.
Maria: When they need to write something in the future they can look at it
and become inspired, and maybe copy some of the things they learned there.
So here’s a funny thing. You mentioned that you’re one of the people that
prints out my copy pieces, but I got a testimonial from someone who bought
my home study course.
It’s funny because this guy is from Australia and he owns a golf website, a
golf member- ship website. And this is what he wrote to me in his
testimonial.
He said: “Maria, this will make you laugh. Prior to finding your course, I
came across some of those sales class article copy pages that I didn’t even
know you had written, and I used to think, ‘Man, this is awesome copy! If
someone were to write a book on how to write web copy like this I’d buy it’.
Then I found your course.” He was so happy because people look at my copy
and they know it’s good, but they don’t know the first thing of how to start
writing it? So they often think, “She’s such a talented copywriter; I could
never write that way.”
But that is not the truth. I can teach anybody how to write copy because I do
it in a step-by-step way, which is exactly what I do. So, anyway, as for that I
will tell you more about that later.
I’ve also received correspondence from people all over the world. They say,
“What, Maria? You wrote that copy? Man, I bought that book or I bought
that product so fast because your copy was too good to resist.”
They’ve said that about some of the copy pieces we’ll talk about in just a
moment.
So, Dan, people don’t think they’re a great copywriter but that isn’t true. I’ve
had years and years of copywriting experience in the offline world.
But, get this, Dan: I have had to unlearn many the things I learned in the
offline world to write copy for the web.
So the thing is, if you learn it right from the get go it will take you less time
than it took me to learn this. So, if the results of my web copywriting course
are any indication, I can tell you that I can teach people to write web copy
faster than it took me to learn it, because I learned everything by trial and
error.
I would try something and see if it worked, and when I was at Aesop, of
course I had the benefit of having a twenty thousand large, random test
sample to test it on. I talked about the testing market earlier.
But, in my course, my Web Copy writing Mastery…I believe you have my
book, don’t you, Dan?
Dan:
Maria:
yet?
Dan:
Yes.
Do you have my course, my Web Copy writing Mastery course,
No, I don’t have that yet.
Maria: You don’t have it…In that course (the Web Copywriting Mastery
course) I teach only the things that I have found to work.
So there’s no learning curve. Because my signature model of web
copywriting is at the heart of that whole thing. And that signature model of
web copywriting is based up on all the things that I discovered while working
with Mark and all the things we tested to know what works and what doesn’t
work.
So that’s my long-winded answer to your question.
Dan:
Now, Maria, before we talk about the how-to, can you give us some
examples of web copy you’ve written that clearly explain your model?
Maria:
Oh, okay. Uh, not a problem. Let me give you a few. I wrote
probably the most visible and the most successful piece of web copy, that I
wrote for Mark Joyner, in terms of numbers of units sold.
It’s at www.psychologicaltriggers.com. Do you remember seeing that copy?
Dan:
Yeah, that’s what I thought. That’s a great copy.
Maria: Okay. People have told me that this copy is too irresistible that they
simply can’t read it and not buy. And actually that’s how I feel.
When I write copy I write it in that spirit.
If I read it I would not be able to resist it. So that’s one example, and again,
that sold more e-books than you can possibly imagine, and it still continues to
sell today after two years on the market.
I wrote this in the year 2000, and in 2003 Mark Joyner sold it to Eiser
Marketing, and Eiser Marketing still has good sales of this book.
Another one that I can give your listeners, as far as an editorial style…the
signature
style
of
web
copy
that
I
do
is
www.freestuffforentrepreneursontheinternet.com.
Now, again, that is copy that I wrote on behalf of Matthew Lesko. Do you
know who Matthew Lesko is?
Dan:
I have been to the website.
Maria: Oh, you’ve been to this website?
Dan:
Yes.
Maria: So you know Matthew. He’s the guy on TV who’s always with a
bright blue suit with ye l- low question marks all over it?
Dan:
That’s right.
Maria: He sells books and courses about how to get free money from the
government.
Dan:
Yeah, grants and stuff like that.
Maria:
Yeah. That, again, sold more copies than his infomercial, and it’s
an e-book so there’s a huge profit margin on those units, okay?
Another one that I wrote on behalf of a client of mine that sells a piece of
software, a piece of affirmation software, and that’s Jeff Hanover.
It’s www.affirmware.com.au. He’s a client of mine from Australia. When I
wrote the copy that’s on his website right now, he nearly doubled his sales
the very first week out. When I spoke to him recently he told me his sales are
up as much as 600%.
Dan:
600%?
Maria: Yes. 600% on any given day compared to what his web copy was
pulling before. I want to give you these examples just so you know.
And then, of course, I’ll give you one more, because if I give your listeners
more than four they’re just going to get confused and all of that.
I
wrote
a
sales
letter
that
was
originally
at
www.guerillamarketingbootcamp.com. (The site is no longer active so the
link is inactive). Now, that I wrote for Jay Conrad Levinson, who is, of
course, most people know is the author of the World’s Best Selling…series of
business books. And he coined the term guerrilla marketing.
So he wrote many books in his guerrilla marketing franchise, and he has the
World’s Best Selling business series. So he did a boot camp in Las Vegas
back in October of 2001, and I wrote his copy for him.
Dan:
And I remember it was a very high-priced ticket item, right?
Maria: The original price was $4,000, but if you had a discount certificate
it was $2,500. So, no matter how you look at it, it was high-ticket.
That made $1.5 million and it was, again, one of those things that people
copied and studied and put into their swipe files.
One of the classic pieces for selling seminars. But, Dan, I have one word of
warning: I give you these examples, and although these website copy pieces
that I sited for you right now exhibit my web copy style, I have to warn
people not to just copy indiscriminately without understanding the underlying
principles at work.
Because, you know, I’m a big proponent of modeling. Model success, right?
Haven’t we been told that before? Anthony Robins says when you see
someone’s success you want to duplicate, copy what they do.
Now, the danger here is that people take a look at my copy and say,“ Wow!
I’m going to copy the next time I do copy.” And they do.
They copy the words. Now, the words are one thing; the words are just a way
of communicating. But it’s the devices that are beneath the words that really
are pulling. And sometimes they miss those. So then they wonder, “How
come it works for Maria and doesn’t work for me?”
That’s what I teach in the Web Copywriting Course. See, on the web you
simply just can’t model successful websites and expect to succeed, too. It
doesn’t work that way, unfortunately.
You need to model the process through which the success was arrived at.
You don’t model the outcome of that marketing. When I say the outcome I
mean you don’t model the words, the final words that appeared on the
website.
That’s not how it works. You have to understand how that copy is developed,
because there is a method to it and there’s a series of events that need to
happen before that website is completed.
Many people don’t know that so they just copy the words. So you have to
examine the steps, you have to examine the psychology and the philosophies
that were considered when writing the web copy, instead of just the copy
itself.
And don’t try to adapt it where it isn’t appropriate. Does that make sense to
you?
Dan:
Yes. Now, Maria, let’s talk about the psychology and steps because
I think our listeners are very excited now. Share with our listeners some of
the specific steps and methods you do so you can teach our listeners how to
do what you do.
Maria: Here’s the thing: I know that I have an hour to spend with you. In
my Web Copywriting Mastery Course it takes me two hours, two full hours
to get into the psychological devices alone. I couldn’t possibly give you all
the psychological devices I teach; that is my specialty.
Let me tell you this: One of the main things that I use as far as psychological
triggers go…I’m called Miss Brain Itch for a reason.
What I do is I make people’s brains itch. What that means is that I give them
enough information to want to learn more, and then it makes them wonder
what the heck I’m talking about. In order to crack that brain itch they have to
buy the product.
See how that works?
In all copywriting, whether it’s online or offline, if you say too much, sell too
much, you sometimes lose your sale. That’s different from what many
copywriters are saying, where some copywriters are saying the more you tell
the more you sell.
I’m a big proponent of long sales copy. I like long sales copy, but it doesn’t
need to mean you’re telling too much. By not telling too much you’re
actually whetting their appetite. And then the psychological devices that I use
fall just under…for instance, when I say to you: “Dan, do you know what
time it is,” what would you do?
Dan:
I’d look at the time.
Maria: Look at the time and you’d tell me the time, right? That’s just an
example of an embedded command.
I did not ask you to give me the time; I asked you if you had the time. And
yet you knew in your brain, as though I gave you a direct command, and you
knew what I asked you to do.
Literally, I didn’t ask you to do that. Why is that important? Because those
kinds of psychological devices, they lie just under the radar of most people’s
perception.
So they don’t even realize they’re being sold when they’re being sold. If
people think they decided to buy without any pressure from you, they’re
more likely to buy and they’re less likely to have buyer’s remorse after the
fact.
Because they feel that “I decided all by myself,” nobody had to force it on
them. Do you see how crucial that is?
Dan:
Mm-hmm. It’s almost like they’re selling themselves.
Maria:
They’re selling themselves. In fact, I teach my students how to
write questions. You just don’t ask any question that you want. You have to
ask it in such a way that their brain answers it and assures them there’s no
other solution for their problem other than to buy this product.
Dan:
Can you give us just a quick example? I’m sorry. Can you just give
our listeners a quick example of those questions?
Maria: Yes. Again, for this particular thing I’m known; there’re so many
things I can do. For instance, there’re certain words you can use just before
you tell them something you want them to believe. I’ll give you those words.
The words: Obviously, Evidently, Apparently, Clearly, and the words As
You Know, and Everybody Knows.
When you put those words right before something you want them to believe,
they will believe the statement that you make after those words as gospel
truth. So, like, for instance: As you know learning how to write web copy
from someone who has done it and sold millions of dollars is the only way to
learn. What did I do there?
Dan:
Make me feel like it was the only way to learn.
Maria:
Why? Because you felt it was the truth. And that’s because I
prefixed it with “as you know”. If I did not put “as you know” there it would
have a different impact. It would be me telling you something.
But as soon as I say “as you know” your brain tells you that you already
knew that, I didn’t have to tell you that. And when your brain answers the
question you’re selling your- self. You’re leading them and they may even
thank you.
Here’s the thing: What most people tell me is they thank me for selling it to
them. And they didn’t even realize I was selling them; they thought they were
selling themselves.
All I had to do was put it in front of them, in their face.
Do you see what I’m saying? On this subject alone I could go all-day. Again,
there are just many things. Here’s another…I know we are over our time
limit but I think we still have a few minutes, and you have some more
questions for me?
Dan:
I do, in fact, but keep going first.
Maria: One other thing, okay? The Internet affords a unique opportunity to
sell that none of the other advertising media afford. And do you know what
that is?
It’s interactivity. In other words, when you have a TV ad or a TV
infomercial, or a radio ad or a direct mail sales letter, or whatever other image
you have, people are not able to answer you because it’s one-sided.
All you are doing is selling them, saying something to them, and they don’t
have the opportunity to respond to you, to tell you if what you’re saying is
true or not to them.
On the Internet that is not so. Because the Internet is a two-dimensional, nonspatial medium, it allows them the opportunity to react to you interactively.
And, in fact, I’m going to tell you right now that if you go to that
www.affirmware.com.au the example that I gave earlier, I use…I’m really
well-known for psychological devices and involvement devices. What are
involvement devices? Involvement devices that are things that when people
get in your sights they suck them in so they will not leave, so they get
involved with your copy.
Do you remember who I told you that you were competing with? 65 million
websites and 3 billion Web pages. If you get them to click on something or
answer a question, or check this checkbox or do something or other, then you
involve them and suck them into reading your copy.
Dan:
You know, Maria, when I go to your website
www.webcopythatsells.com, I see just a pop- up quiz, right? And I guess
that’s why I bought the book!
Maria: That is one of the things that I teach. All the questions that I ask
you in that particular plea are: Do you want to sell more products or what
have you? You’re going to have to answer “yes,” because if you answer “no”
you’re a dope, right?
You’ll feel stupid answering “no” to all of those questions, because all of
those questions are “yes” questions. And guess what happens? I frame you to
start clicking “yes”, “yes,” “yes,” and “yes.”
So now you’ve told me that you are a qualified prospect for this product that
I’m about to sell you.
And then when you click on the order page, guess what you see there?
Another check- box. And so because you’ve already clicked yes in
www.webcopythatsells.com that first screenful, you’re going to say yes
again.
In offline selling and face-to-face selling, that’s what they teach you: keep
asking questions. When you get people to say minor “yes’s”, then when it
comes to the major question, “Are you going to buy this product,” then the
answer is still “yes.” You see how that works?
Dan:
That’s what I do. This is the funny part: I don’t know why more
people aren’t into this yet. I’m the only one who’s teaching it in any way,
shape or form, because all the others are just teaching words.
Words are words, okay, and words are a dime a dozen. But offering
involvement opens up some big dimension that words could not open up.
They get you to act on something.
So, in other words, web copywriters wait until the end of their sales letter or
the end of their web copy to ask for the order, whereas I am asking for the
order at every given moment.
Maria: In fact, you’ve seen at www.webcoypthatsells.com. I was asking
for the sale in the first screen.
I was asking you to say “yes” to me before you even read a word of copy.
And that’s what I know, how to make people buy what you’re selling and
say, “Hey, darn, I can’t wait to know what you’re about. And what you’re
selling I’m ready to buy now. What is it; how much?”
Dan:
Now, Maria, when I go to your website, when I read and study the
copy you wrote, one thing that really stands out is that they look like articles
to me. Do you do that on purpose?
Maria: Wonderful! See, remember when you asked me a while ago “What
is the signature style of web copywriting that you teach?”
This is what it is; it’s called the editorial style marketing. Some other
copywriters will disagree with me because they’d rather pound people in the
head with a sales letter.
Let me tell you this, Dan, I’m going to make a prediction right now: As more
and more direct marketers get on the web and put their sales letters online,
everybody’s going to start with the first two words. What are those first two
words?
“Dear friend.”
Dan:
Yeah.
Maria:
“Dear golf enthusiast, dear whatever”. And people have radar.
People on the web have radars you don’t believe, and you don’t even realize
it. Once they start reading more than their share of online sales letters, the
moment they see “Dear friend” they’re out of there.
So that’s my prediction for you. Even if it does work…why does “Dear
friend” work in a direct mail sales letter? Because it’s a letter! They expect to
read “Dear friend” on a let- ter because it’s a letter that came in the mail. On
the Internet, what does “Dear friend” have to do with anything?
It’s not a letter, it’s a website. Why do people go on the Internet in the first
place? It’s the information superhighway. They did not log onto the Internet
to be sold something. They did not log onto the Internet saying, “Oh, boy,
can’t wait to buy something today!”
No, they did not do that. They want to be informed. It’s the information
superhighway, and if you look at all of my websites…If I had a dollar for
every time somebody told me “Your copy looks so sophisticated and so
classy I want to read every word.”
You know, that’s probably the best complement I can get. Why? On the
Internet, you’re lucky if they read 150 words of what you wrote.
People’s attention span on the Internet is just not there, because again, 65
million websites are calling their name: “Come to me!”
Dan:
“Click here to order!”
Maria: Yeah, “Come to me, buy me, order me!” whatever. But what I’m
saying to you is that they look at my website and they go, “This is such
finesse.” That’s what I’m about; finessing the web surfer.
Because you are meeting them at their point of need, which means you’re not
just bom- barding them with an ad, but you’re giving them information
they’re researching for in the first place.
So, in other words, if they type up “web copywriting” into a search engine,
and they got to my site and I immediately started selling them on my web
copywriting course, are they going to buy? It’s like, “I’m not even ready to
buy yet…”
Dan:
“I don’t even know you.”
Maria: Yeah, you don’t know me, you don’t trust me, nothing. Of course,
one of the things I teach, too, is you have to capture their contact information.
How do you do that?
By writing a free report that meets their needs. Not something that’s going to
make you look like the best thing since sliced bread. No; you’ve got to meet
the need they’re looking for when they type in those keywords. So everything
is frame of mind marketing.
That’s why I’m giving away that e-book Frame of Mind Marketing free. That
is the basis of everything I do. Once you understand that you understand how
I write the way I do.
Because it’s like trying to get a woman to know you first before asking her to
marry you. Does that make sense?
Dan:
That’s right, that’s right.
Maria: You don’t just say, “Will you marry me?” on meeting them. You
first have to ask them for their phone number and you don’t even do that until
they like you already. When you sense that, “Okay, they like me, so maybe I
can ask for their phone number now.”
It’s the same thing. Even as I say that, Dan, there are exceptions to the rule.
You see how there are some copywriters that do nothing but high-pressure
sales letters?
Sometimes they did that for a reason, and there are certain instances where
that is called for. But it’s not the majority, it’s the minority, and I’ll show you
why.
For instance, if I were selling an e-book, and my traffic sources…Again,
traffic source is an operative key word.
If my traffic source was purely joint venture endorsements from people who
own e-zines or newsletters, so those people are going to endorse my e-book
through their list.
All the people have to do is click onto my website and buy. So they’re
already pre-sold when they get there.
Then, a sales letter will do just fine in that respect. But if they’re coming
from a search engine, most people are coming from search engines, that’s not
going to work.
Because they haven’t been pre-sold, they don’t know you, they don’t trust
you, nobody has recommended you…why would they buy it from you?
Just to be on the safe side, if you’re not somebody who gets involved in JVs
and highly endorsed by people who are trusted, then you’re safer with the
editorial style marketing.
Here’s the thing: When they get to your site, they will look at you as
someone who is giving them valuable information instead of just selling them
something.
That alone is going to amount to more sales than you can possibly believe;
because they don’t see you as a merchant. Instead they see you as an expert
in your field who is giving them the information they want and need.
And notice that somewhere in the middle of the copy I start to sell, but the
selling is still pretty low-key. It’s still low-key, and notice I don’t use any
fonts that look like a sales let- ter. It looks just like an editorial.
And, again, I have to thank Mark Joyner for that because that was Mark
Joyner’s style. And I just kept refining on that based on what we were
learning from our testing.
So, again, that’s the heart of my signature model that I teach and it is
learnable by anybody. And, in fact, the way I teach web copywriting in my
course is so much easier. Have you read many copywriting books?
Dan:
A ton of them.
Maria: Okay. Now, what do they tell you? They tell you the first thing you
have to write is the headline, correct? And how much time do you have to
spend on your headline?
Dan:
A ton! 80% of the time.
Maria: 80% of your time needs to be spent writing your headline. Well,
I’m telling you that’s not the case. I do things the opposite of how everybody
else does it. Here’s what I do: I have what I call the million-dollar blueprint
for writing web copy. It’s a simple five questions.
You answer the five questions, and the five questions I just answered in two
to three sentences…The moment you’re done with that you have your copy
in blueprint form, and then that’s your body copy. Once your body copy has
been written, your headline will automatically appear.
So, in other words, you don’t have to force-feed your brain to come up with a
particular angle.
You know why? If you do that, you’re going to miss the boat. You’re going
to fall in love with a headline that does not fill your customers needs, that
doesn’t call it to them.
It’s going to fill your ego and it’s going to bomb. You’re doing it the opposite
way.
Every time I’ve fallen in love with a headline, a clever one, it’s bombed. I can
tell you in all of my twenty-five years of copywriting experience. I’m doing it
the other way now.
I first answer the five questions, so there’s my web copy, and then I start
adding the psychological devices, involvement devices and things that are
going to make it a lean, mean selling machine.
And while I’m doing that whole process, guess what? The headline appears.
I give you some examples of that. I give examples of how that happens and
it’s amazing, actually. Once you start immersing yourself in your subject
matter it comes.
You don’t do it before, you do it during. What happens then is you slash 80%
off your copywriting time, because 80% of your time is trying to brainstorm
your copy angles and you don’t have to do that anymore. So that’s one thing
that I teach that is so contrary to what everyone else is teaching; it’s the
opposite, actually.
So there you go. The longest answer to one question. Do you have any other
questions?
Dan:
Now, I know we are going way over time, but I just have one more
quick question. What are the five questions?
Maria: Okay, well, you probably know these because you have my book.
Dan:
I know these.
Maria: You know what? I’d like to say what they are, but if I did without
having the benefit of explaining why those five are so powerful and why they
constitute the only things you need in your web copy, they will not appreciate
it.
Dan:
True.
Maria: When I cannot elaborate and explain something, I don’t want to
start on it, because people are going to take it and use it the wrong way.
Here’s what I’m going to tell you: These five questions, when you know
what they are, it forms the basis for any marketing material that you’ll ever
write.
And I mean anything from website copy, direct mail, brochures, your
elevator speech, anything can be patterned around the answers to these five
questions. These are the only five questions you need to answer.
And that’s why people who have never written copy, who became my
students, have told me, “Maria, I swear I bought twenty books on
copywriting and I have never been able to write copy until now.”
Because, what you get from the other copywriting books sometimes are all
these over- riding theories, and it doesn’t tell you what you should do the first
time. What should you do?
I’ve got to say, excuse my language, but there’s just too much crap on the
Internet. I’m serious.
Dan:
That’s too funny!
Maria:
One of my students said, “Why the heck (I’m saying heck but
actually…) are the other copywriting gurus not teaching this?”
And I told him, “To be honest, they don’t have the benefit of having
experienced what I experienced.”
And that’s why I thank Mark Joyner, because he hired me to become lead
copywriter and then director of creative web writing, and I was privy to
things that most marketers will never learn on their own. They have too small
lists. Their lists are too small to really understand what’s working and what’s
not working.
The same person who told me that, he goes, “Well, I want to kick their
bloody butts, because I’ve been doing it the wrong way all this time and
yours is so much easier!”
One of my students is an engineer, and he said to me, “My problem is that
copywriting is about emotion.
Because people buy on emotion and justify with logic.” Well, he was all
about logic. He had no emotion whatsoever in his copy. He was just very
factual, factual, factual. And you don’t sell that way.
But when I taught him how to answer the five questions, he said, “I can’t
believe you taught me how to write web copy. This is the thing that nobody’s
ever taught me. It’s how. They just taught me that this is the way that good
copy needs to be, or this is a sample of good copy. But they never taught me
how to do that.”
See, there’s a big difference. I can sit here all day and show you web copy
pieces that I’ve written in my twenty-five years, some really, really good,
some okay, and some not so great.
But the whole point is for those that most people find absolutely awesome…
will I be able to teach them how to do that? The answer is yes. Before I
wasn’t sure that I could.
Not until I taught my first class of fifty students and graduated them did I
realize that I was able to teach those people, even those whose first language
was not English.
In my first class I had one Spanish-speaking person, a German-speaking
person, and a Vietnamese-speaking person, and they all were worried that
they could not do this.
I said, “Look at me. My first language is Philippino. English is my second
language. So if I can write web copy then anybody can write it.” And again,
the way I teach it is so logical.
The steps are so logical. It’s like, “Do this first. Are you done? Then do this.”
And again, it’s so easy. Just put it in. And every step is doable. Nothing is
ever daunting.
Anyway, I know that sounds like a sales pitch more than anything else, but I
just so believe in what I do and what I teach that I have to articulate it that
way. That’s the truth of it.
Dan:
Now, Maria, how can our listeners get in touch with you and get a
hold of your products?
Maria:
Well, I do have two websites. The first one…If your listener is
interested in getting the web copywriting mastery course that I speak of,
that’s the twelve-hour course on cassette tape, so it’s a home study course.
My students in October paid $997 for that, but if you order it from the
website, through the home study course, it’s only $297. So, again, that’s at
www.webcopywritinguniversity.com.
Dan:
I’m getting it, Maria. I’m getting it.
Maria: All right! So are you saying I made a sale without even trying?
Dan:
Yes!
Maria: Do you know why?
Dan:
I’m hypnotized.
Maria: Beneath your radar. You didn’t even realize I was selling you. I’m
big on that, Dan. I’m big on that. When people hear me speak they don’t
know.
And I teach everything I do.
It’s not like I’m the kind of teacher who “Do as I say and not as I do” because
everything I teach I do. And they see it on my websites.
So, in other words, when people love my copy on my websites, and they
know they can learn to write in exactly that same way, I made the sale, didn’t
I? Rather than, “Okay, you’re saying you have a signature model, yet I’m not
being sold by your copy. So what’s up with that?”
I prove it to them: “First of all, where are you in this web copy? You read ten
pages so far. Did you realize that?
Most people only read 150 words. You read 10,000 words and nine pages.
How about that?”
Okay, so I prove to them what I did to them, and I prove to them how they
can do the same thing.
The second website they can go to, the one you went to, is
www.webcopythatsells.com.
Again, that’s going to be temporary, by the way, Dan. Probably that website
will only be up, at the latest, until December. Do you know why?
Dan:
Because you publish your book, right?
Maria:
That’s right. Because I have a New York publisher that’s
publishing my book it will come out in the bookstores, and one month before
it comes out in the bookstores they want me to take down the website so it
doesn’t compete with their sales. As you know, since you bought the e-book,
you’re also going to get a physical copy of the book as my bonus. You know
that, right?
Dan:
Yes.
Maria: Yeah, so you get to learn it now and then you get a free copy of the
physical book. Some people like to read on the web; some people like to take
the book to the beach and read it there. So that’s how you can find me.
Ted Ciuba - America's Foremost
Internet Marketing Consultant
Ted Ciuba is known all over the world as America’s foremost Internet
marketing consultant. He takes clients and students at any level to wherever
they want to go on the Internet.
How? Millionaire Magazine says it superbly. “Ted deftly incorporates
traditional mail order techniques with clear thinking online marketing tips to
create a winning combination anyone can use.” Entrepreneur Magazine
identifies his qualifications as being a best- selling author and making money
live before an audience, repeatedly.
Ted is the author of a number of business books, including How to Get Rich
on the Internet, Mail Order in the Internet Age, Pay for Profit, and two dozen
more books, courses, and programs.
The thing that gets the most press is his incredible promotions at his own
world Internet summit conferences. These events, happening in select
locations across the globe, literally spill the goods on making obscene
amounts of money at lightning speed on the Internet.
In his famous Internet Challenge, a feature of every show, he hits a
stopwatch, selects a person at random from the audience, then the
brainstorming starts -- zooming from concept to money in the bank within 72
hours! The Internet Marketing Association tells it. “Ted Ciuba really is a rags
to riches Internet story. He once lived on a county line at the end of a long
dirt road in Tennessee, hiding out from the bill collectors.”
His moneymaking methods have been featured on TV and in dozens of radio
shows, newspapers, magazines, websites, and live seminars throughout the
world. There’s magic in his methods. Pay attention! He’ll show you how to
capture your own million dollars on the Internet.
Dan: Ted, could you tell us a little bit about your history and background?
How did you get started in this marketing game?
Ted:
It was actually fortuitous. I struggled with poverty for years and
years. It wasn’t because I wasn’t trying. I wasn’t trying properly. I’d never
gone to real people with real instruction who were willing to share.
I was teaching at California State University. In 1993, this new thing called
the Internet comes out. I could feel it in my bones. It was going to be
something! At that time, it was all text. There were no graphics. A lot of
people can’t even imagine that. It had come over from the BBS.
I started assigning students extra credit if they’d turn in their homework
assignments. I started doing everything I could to develop that interest. I
knew it was going to happen and would be commercial. A large part of my
success was really just being there first.
Dan:
When did you develop your first website?
Ted:
My first Internet success started in 1994. I was able to quit my job
and move on. On the other hand, I didn’t have my first website until 1995.
Dan:
I don’t understand, Ted.
Ted:
Well, most people wouldn’t. This was the only way I knew to put it
together. I still carry that inheritance. I was doing what is appropriately called
“mail order in the Internet age.” I started off with classifieds, which today of
course are not effective. I would run classifieds. I’d get people to respond to
me. I’d say, “Send me your physical address and I’ll send you a written
special report.”
Dan:
At that time, you were not using a website. You were simply using
classified ads. You mailed them, physically, a report. You then tried to sell
them another product.
Ted:
That was how it started. Of course, I quickly moved into doing
everything digitally. In the beginning, all I knew to do was what I knew to
do.
Dan:
In 1995, you built your first website. What was it about?
Ted:
It was concerning a course called Paper Profits. It was real estate
oriented. Quite literally, I went on the Internet to help me develop that into a
bigger, more valuable business.
That product still sells.
Dan:
Ted, what have been your biggest accomplishments online so far?
Ted:
That’s a trick question. You know that! Let me start way back
when. I remember my first sale that was over $1,000.That was big. I
remember the first day I got over $6,000 and then $12,000.The first day I got
over $50,000 that was giant!
We’ve done boot camps and the World Internet Summit. Those are
accomplishments. Most recently, on April 28, we took my new book, How to
Get Rich on the Internet, up to Number Two on Amazon.
Dan:
I know that. I bought your book, too!
Ted:
You’re a good man, Dan.
Dan:
I got your bonuses.
Ted:
A lot of people did. That was marketing. Ironically, you’re asking
me about one of my greatest accomplishments, and I didn’t make a penny
that day. I gave 100% of the profits to Child Reach to help build schools in
the Dominican Republic.
You have to realize, and I say this to encourage everybody. I’ve come from a
point where I needed charity to where today I can generate almost $47,000
worth of sales on the Internet in a single day and give every bit of it away.
Something’s gone on in the mean- time.
Dan:
Why do you feel that so many people who attempt to create an
income on the Internet fail to do so?
Ted:
That’s a very good question, too. I think the biggest problem is that
they don’t enter into it with the faith that they can do it. Those who do, if they
get kicked in the teeth or lose $100 or $3,000, put whatever label on it you
want, that’s feedback that whatever they did didn’t work right.
Go back to the book, the guru, or the offer. Go back to the copy and the
marketing pro- gram. Find out what others are doing that’s successful. Copy,
model, and mimic that.
Dan:
Ted, I don’t mean to embarrass you, but what are some of the
mistakes you’ve made along the way?
Ted:
Dan, just like everyone else, I’ve made a lot of them.
Dan:
We can spend the whole hour talking about them.
Ted:
That could be a whole program.
Dan:
Just on mistakes! But share a couple, three or four big ones.
Ted:
I’ve written copy that offended people I didn’t intend to offend. I’ve
sent out broadcast messages where I had the personalization code screwed
up. That was a big mistake because I had the largest single unsubscribe day
I’ve ever had. We do direct mail also. I’ve sent out untested pieces to the tune
of $8,000 to $10,000 where I didn’t get back any money.
Dan:
Oh, that hurts!
Ted:
All of this stuff we all know better than to do. Everybody gets lazy.
I’m no different than anybody else.
Dan:
Ted, from your experience, what kinds of products should our
listeners sell on the Internet?
Ted:
You know I’m involved a lot in the Internet marketing arena. That’s
my dominant arena. I’m also involved in direct mail and real estate. Those
arenas all touch on the business opportunity market. They’re all information.
Clearly, I am a big fan of information marketing. It gives us the ability to do
everything that the Internet promises. What do I mean? I mean you can
literally sell a product for $400 that costs you nothing.
Once your infrastructure is set up and your hosting is paid, your actual cost,
because you deliver it digitally, is zero. You can actually get your marketing
costs down to zero, too. I was just talking about the How to Get Rich on the
Internet Amazon day. Zero marketing costs. I’m clearly in favor of
information marketing!
Dan:
Ted, in case our listeners don’t know what exactly information
marketing is, can you take a minute or two to quickly explain it?
Ted:
Basically, it’s selling something that can be delivered in audio,
video, or book. We have e- books, audio, and DVDs. But the cost is so
miniscule in relation to the value of the product.
Quite literally, I can come to you and tell you, “I’ve got this program that
costs $1,000.” People think, “One thousand dollars! That’s a lot of money.”
“When John used it, and Cynthia used it, and Mohammed used it, they all
made $6,000 within seven days.”
Now you think, “That’s good! Sell me that information!” That’s information
versus, by contrast, “I have a killer toothpaste.” I sell you this toothpaste that
costs $8.That’s higher than most toothpastes, but it’s better. It’ll make your
teeth last forever. It’ll make them shine! You’ll have sex appeal. Men and
women will be chasing you down.
You say, “That’s worth $8.” But when I sell it to you, I have to pay the
manufacturer. The manufacturer sells it to me for $5. Instead of my profit
being this gargantuan $1,000 less $15 to $20 delivery costs, it’s now $8 less
$5 for the people who provided the physical product. There’s less money to
be shared.
There’s less money to be made with a product rather than something that can
be delivered digitally. We used to call it “paper and ink.” It’s audio, video, or
a report you can read.
Dan:
It could be an e-book or a collection of interviews. Information.
You’re selling information to help people change and improve their lives.
Ted:
Exactly. A video of how to make $10,000 in 72 hours. A video on
how to do your Pilates routine. It could be anything.
Dan:
Ted, do you suggest that we go after the business opportunity
market? Are there any other markets you would recommend as well?
Ted:
Of course I recommend the business opportunity market. These
people are used to paying relatively high prices. It requires a little bit of
rethinking, though.
People in the business opportunity market do not want information, per se, as
information. They want what we call a “business in a box.” A package where
when they plug it in it’ll whir, sing, and dance, and they’ll make money. You
work more on the kit that includes resell rights and copies, and tell them
where to get it done.
It might include a website. They want this rather than the information about
Internet marketing, where you’d say, “This is how you use Front Page so you
can build a website. This is how you create a product.” They’d rather have
the product than learn how to create one.
Dan:
Is it almost like a mini-franchise?
Ted:
In a way. There are some legal implications with calling it a
franchise. That’s the good news and the bad news.
The good news, obviously, is if I sell a program, today everybody knows who
I am. At least everybody who has any experience on the Internet. That gives
Sally Smith the opportunity to promote Ted Ciuba’s product and get instant
name recognition and acceptance. It makes the sell easier.
On the other hand, you’ve got the franchise thing. On the Internet it’s all just
one big page. She’s probably not the only one selling that product. With a
physical franchise, you’re probably the only one in your neighborhood that’s
selling that product. On the Internet, location is irrelevant.
Dan:
The whole world is your market.
Ted:
The whole world’s your market, and it doesn’t matter where in the
world you’re plugging in from your keyboard. With our World Internet
Summit, that’s one of the things that we’ve really worked hard on
acknowledging and bringing in.
Most of the people doing Internet summits or Internet boot camps in the U.S.
have predominantly U.S. speakers. I looked around and said, “Wait a
minute!” We’ve even got U.S. people who have gone offshore. They like it
better because it doesn’t matter where the money comes in. It’s only electrons
going into a bank account these days.
It’s a fallacy to think that only Americans are selling on the Internet, because
they’re not. It’s anybody. Male, female, age and social status don’t matter.
Whether you’re getting on from an Internet café or from your own highspeed cable connection, anybody can get on the Internet and make money
today if they know how to do it.
Dan:
There’s a joke. I think I read it in a newspaper. There’s a saying,
“On the Internet, nobody knows you’re a dog.” That’s right on.
Ted, should we deliver our products digitally or physically?
Ted:
We started off with all physical products. That was what we had
with mail order. The Internet came around. We got enamored of digital
delivery. It’s easy. It’s great for us. Hands-off, automatic. The thank you goes
out. The instructions on how to use it go out.
Dan:
Cash in your bank account. You do nothing.
Ted:
Exactly! On the other hand, experience is proving that that’s okay
for lower-priced products. Where that exact barrier is we don’t know for sure.
We’re putting it somewhere between $50 and $100 and below. If you really
want to get to bigger values, $400, $700, $1,000 and beyond, you need some
stud value. People get a little disappointed.
I have a single page that I sell for $997. It’s interesting. Some people see the
value. One guy said, “That’s the most expensive piece of paper I’ve ever seen
in my life.” What that one page contains is the exact formula I’ve used to
create a variety of million-dollar sales letters.
There’s a lot of different ways to cut it. Is it a million dollars in a lifetime? Is
it a million dollars a year? Is it a million dollars a month? We don’t usually
try to cut it below that. The answer is yes. I’ve written all of those. I’ve used
this formula exactly.
Is that formula not worth $1,000? To the right person, yes. To my
grandmother? She’s going to put it in her magazine stack and think she got
ripped off.
Information is valuable. Overall, the reaction I get when I deliver that page is
that most people think it’s a little over-priced. I wasn’t selling the paper. I
was selling the formula.
I was telling you how to cook Colonel Sanders’ chicken. That formula is
what made that multi-billion-dollar worldwide chain. Asa Chandler paid
$500 in 1896 for the formula for Coca-Cola. Today their annual revenues are
over $43 billion. They employ over 49,000 direct employees, not counting
what they add to the profits of other people. It’s the formula.
We’re back to information. In every one of these examples I’ve given, the
formula by itself is not enough. That doctor who sold Asa Chandler the
formula had the formula. It had to be mixed with imagination, drive, desire,
and marketing.
Same thing with Colonel Sanders. Colonel Sanders had that formula for
years. It was only when he got his first social security check and said, “Uhoh. I’m in trouble,” that he started getting investors for the formula.
It’s the same thing with a sales letter. I can teach you how to write a million
dollar sales letter. By the way, I normally deliver a course with this also. If
you don’t do it, the formula by itself is inert. It takes the drive of the
individual. Taking action and, like I said earlier, getting kicked in the teeth.
Everybody will get kicked in the teeth. Nowhere do you see this better than in
the sports world. It’s legendary how somebody fails one day and comes back
to achieve the next.
Dan:
Ted, many of our listeners have not produced their own information
products. They might be thinking, “I don’t have time to write. I don’t know
how to write.” Is creating an information product difficult?
Ted:
The good news is that the answer is no. If it were, it would be a
worse environment for all of us. It can be as difficult as you want to make it,
or as easy as you want to make it.
Which should I start with as an illustration? Easy or difficult?
Dan:
Let’s start with difficult.
Ted:
I have several friends who have been working on a novel for more
than five years. It’s still not finished. That’s what you call difficult.
Dan:
I have a couple of friends like that, too!
Ted:
So we fast forward to the easy one. You, right now, are creating an
information product that will have value and that you can sell. That’s pretty
doggone easy, isn’t it?
It’s ironic, because that’s one of the big things people say. “I don’t have a
product.” I say, “You can create one today. Go to Radio Shack. Get a tape
recorder that you can stick on your phone. Call up an expert.” Most of these
experts are willing and flattered to talk.
Everybody has an ego. That’s how they make their money, by getting
exposure.
Dan:
From my experience, all of these people are successful because
they’re generous. They love to share their success stories, their wisdom, and
their knowledge.
Ted:
That’s very good for our listeners to hear.
Dan:
Exactly. A little bit of it is my reputation and all the work I’ve done.
Just call them up! The worst they’ll say is no. So what?
Ted:
That’s it. It’s not a big deal. As you’ve just demonstrated, the odds
are overwhelmingly in your favor that they’ll say yes. That’s what they’re
born to do. It’s like throwing a dog a bone. Will the dog go after the bone?
The chances are 99.9% he will. That’s what he’s born to do.
Dan:
Correct. We can do an interview and create a product. What are
some of the other ways we can crank out product quickly and easily?
Ted:
Of course, interviews are very simple. You don’t have to do an
interview. If you create an outline of an area of your expertise, you can set
yourself down in front of the microphone. You can create an e-book. In fact,
you can create a real book this way.
For my book, How to Get Rich on the Internet, that’s exactly what I did. I
chose a certain theme. “Here’s the focus. I want to know how to get rich on
the Internet. I want to reveal this to my listeners and readers.”
I called up guys like Robert Allen, Terry Dean, Armand Morin, T. J. Rolleter,
Jay Conrad Levinson, Ron LeGrand, Marlon Sanders, Jonathan Mizel, all
names that a lot of our listeners will recognize.
I said, “Let’s talk about how to get rich on the Internet.” That wasn’t a big
sweat for them. They didn’t have to prepare.
I recorded it. I sent it off to the transcriptionist. I said, “Transcribe this. Send
it back to me.” When she did, of course I had to do a little bit of editing. That
was minor. For $495, you can have it put in book form.
Dan:
Boom! You get a best-selling book. That’s exactly what a good
friend of mine, Mike Litman, did with Conversations with Millionaires.
Ted:
We did the same kind of thing.
Dan:
You can interview. Also, our listeners can do a mini-seminar and
record it. It’s an instant product.
Ted:
You’ve got it. In fact, you see the sharp ones coming to those events
with their tape recorders. At the World Internet Summit in Sydney, Australia,
we had a lady contact us. She said, “You’re going to have these major “stars”
or gurus there.” By the way, the stars and gurus don’t use those names
seriously. “Can I bring a camera and a crew and inter- view them?”
She created a video product. It cost her about $400, rather than just bringing
in a tape recorder for free. On the other hand, she was able to talk to giants.
I saw another guy at Armand Morin’s Big Seminar. The guy came up with a
tape recorder. He said, “Mark Victor Hansen, can I interview you?” He said,
“I’m free tomorrow about 10:00 a.m.” The guy said, “I’ll be there!”
You catch people like that. These are the same kind of people I have in my
book. They’re the same kind of people Mark Litman had in his book. They’re
the same kind of people that you could have in your book.
Dan:
That’s why I recommend that our listeners go to a boot camp,
seminars, or the World Internet Summit. Meet those people. Do some
networking.
Ted:
Exactly. That’s the reason why buying the tapes afterwards, or
today it may be CDs or DVDs, is only a substitute. If you have a schedule
conflict or really can’t get the money together, do that. On the other hand,
one of the reasons I’m so firmly entranced with the live event mainly has to
do with meeting people. You get the information better.
I struggled off and on for 20 years with mail order. I’d read a few books.
Somehow or other it didn’t quite come together. I attended a high-quality
event in 1994.When I did, it came together. Three weeks later, after decades
of struggle, I walked in and quit my job. It finally came together. Real
people, real relationships. Things happen.
Dan:
Ted, get ready for this. I have a challenge for you.
Let’s say I’m broke right now. I only have a few hundred bucks in my
pocket. I don’t have a product. I don’t have a list. I don’t have any
experience. I don’t have anything. I have a full-time job, so I don’t even have
a lot of time. I want to make $100,000 in the next 12 months on the Internet.
Give our listeners a step-by-step blueprint.
Ted:
You don’t make it easy! On the other hand, I know how to do it.
That’s what happened to me. I did that. I’ve helped and seen other people do
it.
Listeners, get your pencils ready!
It’s very simple. Do a little bit of research first. Find a market that will pay
you adequately, with a product that will pay adequately. If you think you’re
going to make $100,000 getting 10% commissions from Amazon, you’re
mistaken. That’s not it.
Find something. You can do your research at Overture. They have that
available .You can see what people are paying. For instance, if you were to
look around, you might find that gambling is a pretty good area. You might
not like gambling.
Do some research. Find out what people are searching for and buying.
Amazon is a good source. What are the best-selling books? That tells you
what they’re buying. You do that little bit of research. You’re going in a little
bit more consciously than just saying, “Mr. Neighbor, I’m going to sell these
vitamins that you’ve got through this multi-level pro- gram, even though I
just make a sliver of money.” That may not work.
There are other things, too. For instance, pre-paid legal. I love the product.
It’s not a really easy seller. I don’t think I could make $100,000 off of it.
You’ve got to ask yourself if you can do it.
I would start with ClickBank.com. They have website for you. All you have
to do is join the affiliate program. A lot of them have very good
commissions, 50% or 60%. Get yourself started. I would start with five or six
different products. It takes no effort. You can get a comparison.
One will sell better than the others. Just like if you write a letter and send it
out with three different headlines, one will pull better. You’ll find that out.
Give yourself the advantage as early as you can. Join those affiliate
programs.
The quickest way to get things started is to go to Google. You can drive
traffic literally in minutes to your affiliate website. We start creating our
money there.
Now, you’ve got money coming in over and above your expenses. You’re
keeping those very low. You have to do something because you can’t take an
affiliate program to a joint venture partner. They could just join the affiliate
program themselves.
You’ve got a few bucks. You’ve got revenue coming in. You’re now quickly
finding out, within a matter of seven to ten days, which programs sell the
best. Really quickly, you start becoming an expert.
This can be as easy as calling experts and getting them on your tape deck so
you have tapes. In other words, you start creating your own products. Instead
of giving away 50% when you make the sale, you get it all.
It gets even better. The limiting device when you join an affiliate program is
that you only get paid on the sales you make. When you’re on the other side
of the fence and you have an affiliate program, you get paid on all the sales
that everybody makes. You’ve leveraged yourself. It’s the multiplying effect.
You’ve multiplied how much money you can make.
Instead of building someone else’s name, you’re building your own name.
Now you have your own product and can find joint venture partners in your
field, whatever field that is. You can go to them and say, “Let’s make a deal.
Why don’t we offer my program to your list? You’ve already got the people.
We’ll split the profits.”
Of course you have name snags, name squeezes. You’re always trying to get
names off of people. Now you’re building your list.
You repeat the process. You create another product. You’ve already got eager
buyers waiting. These are people who know you and respect and trust you.
You can do the joint venture thing again. You follow that through and stay
dedicated, which is tough if you’re working part-time.
You may not need to work part-time the whole year. That may just be when
you’re getting started. When your dependable online income is two or three
times what your offline income is, why do you keep working?
Dan: The first objective is to get some revenue coming in so you can quit
your job and focus more on Internet marketing, correct?
Ted:
That’s it, and also to see that it’s possible. Nobody should question
if it’s possible. They see everybody doing it all around them. “Is it possible
for me to do it?” is a logical question. If they haven’t done it, they can’t help
but have that doubt.
Dan:
Ted, let’s go back. Talk a little bit about Google and how it works.
Are you talking about Google AdWords?
Ted:
Yes, I’m talking about Google AdWords.
Dan:
How do we make it work? I know you’re really good at this. Share
a couple of your secrets.
Ted:
It’s simpler than you’d ever believe. What you don’t want to do is
throw a bunch of words in there and not know what’s making money. There
is a program called AutoPilotRiches.com. It’s the best program I know.
There’s an ad tracker in this system.
In Google, you open up a group for each keyword or keyword phrase. A
keyword would be “business,” but that is really irrelevant. That’s not a good
keyword, so you say, “lease option business” or “buying or selling houses.”
These are keyword phrases.
You run that through your ad tracker. Let’s say that you decide you’ll bid
$0.15 a click- through. That’ll come up on the web page. For those who
haven’t done it yet, you ought to go to Google. You’ll see little ads come up
on the right-hand side every time you do a search. Those that come up there
are the ones that people are paying for.
If people do a search with something that’s related to your keyword, you
come up. You don’t have to pay for the exposure. You only pay when the
people click through. They click through presumably because they have an
interest. People don’t go to a search engine if they don’t have an interest. You
pay when they click through.
Because it went through your ad tracker, you’ll know exactly how much you
paid. You’ll be able to correlate that with the sales that came off of that
keyword. It’s very simple. If it takes you 100 clicks at $0.15 each, or $15 to
make a sale, what did the product sell for?
If the product sold for $15, then you didn’t make any money. If it sold for
$20 or any- thing above that, you made money. It’s very simple math. That’s
the whole point of this business. It’s math and emotion. That’s the
copywriting, the emotion .You’ve got to run the business with math.
You can get 75 keywords on your page and that doesn’t cost anything. If you
throw that into Google, some will make money and some will lose money. If
you don’t know which those are, how do you know how to tighten up your
ship and make more profits?
Dan:
So it’s all math? If they spend $500 on a Google ad and they make
$1,000, how long should they keep doing it? All day long, right?
Ted:
Dan:
offer.
That’s the easy kind of question!
It’s all math. They can test the headline, the sales copy, and the
Ted:
Exactly. That comes with a little bit more sophistication, but it’s the
same thing. Let’s say a person is offering a program with these six bonuses
versus these different six bonuses.
They run their ad tracker with their keywords through a split tester.
AutoPilotRiches.com has one of those, too. You can actually test three
variables at the same time. It always has to be the same variable.
Let’s go through two. One of those will generally outsell the other. If you get
enough traffic, you can tell on a scientific basis.
Obviously, if you only get three hits and one person buys Product A, that’s
not enough to make a generalization. Say you get 2,000 hits and get a big
advantage on one. I say 2,000. It doesn’t take that many to know. Truthfully,
about 500 is where we can generally tell.
That’s what you run with.
Dan:
How many websites do you have, Ted?
Ted:
I never can keep up with it exactly. I have approximately 50 that are
operating.
Dan:
There are two kinds of websites. One kind is just content. A portal
website with a ton of content. The other kind would be a sales page or a long
sales letter, that type of thing.
What kind of website do you recommend our listeners build?
Ted:
I recommend both. A lot depends on which way you’re going. If
you were to look at my sites, it’s clear that the overwhelming majority are
sales letters. It’s what we call a mini site. You come in, read it, and make a
decision or enroll, at least. Other things may need more information. One of
my clients is selling Nevada Corporations.
Dan:
Inc. and Grow Rich?
Ted:
No. It’s called Asset-Protection-Consultant.com. He’s got a website
that’s a mini site, but sales are not coming in like he wants.
I keep telling him, “This kind of product costs somewhere in the
neighborhood of $3,500 to $5,500 and is risky. Everyone knows if you don’t
do it right, you’ll get in trouble. You can’t sell this like it’s a $97 e-book.
You’ve got to have FAQs so people can get on. You’ve got to have articles
so that people can get another point of view.”
That may be an extreme example, but that’s what I was wanting to look at. I
do recommend them both. That’s where you want to go.
Corey Rudl, with MarketingTips.com, has a relatively complex Internet
marketing site. All these “articles” are articles, but they’re contexted and
devised to lead you to the buy decision. It looks like a content site. It is, even
though once you get into the rafters it’s a bunch of mini sites put together.
There’s a place for both of them.
If a person’s going to start with one, I would say, “Make your life simple. Put
impact in your sales letter. Let’s get the money in.”
Dan:
Based on your experience testing probably thousands of different
strategies, what are the five most powerful ways to drive traffic to your
website?
Ted:
Number one has to be joint ventures. Basically, it’s nothing more
than a relationship. Today, it’s often done through email. You write an email
to another person, a friend or marketer. You say, “Let’s split the profits. If
you’ll put out an email to your list, we’ll make sales.” That’s not exactly how
you say it, but that’s it. A joint venture.
The reason that’s so good is that you can get a big flood of them. They come
in predisposed because they have the recommendation of the list holder, who
they respect.
Another thing that everybody should be doing who has more than one site is
cross-linking. In other words, people come to your site. There may be a
resource section where they can get further information on different kinds of
products. You’re sending traffic that comes to one of your sites to another.
By the way, I said cross-linking. The same thing applies when they opt in and
start getting email messages from your autoresponder. You’re then making
referrals to other sites and recommending certain programs.
We would be remiss if we didn’t mention Google as a very viable immediate
start-up opportunity.
Dan:
Aren’t the search engines very competitive now? How can listeners
get a high ranking in major search engines? Is that a very technical question?
Ted:
Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t. I can put you number one immediately if
you want to be. It’s just, “Write the check, get to number one.”
If you want to do it free, it’s a very complex event. You struggle and struggle
trying to get in the top ten. You’re doing that with meta tags and content. You
keep it short and relevant. You use the top keywords. All that is very
competitive. There are so many people trying to do that.
On the other hand, if you bid for the top position on Google or Overture,
you’re there automatically. Isn’t that true?
Dan:
Yes. It’s all math, like you said.
Ted:
Exactly. We like Google. For our organization, it became so
technical and competitive that we quit trying to be number one or in the top
ten on the search engines. I’m not saying you don’t register. Be aware when
you’re designing your pages, and use meta tags. When they’re doing a search,
you want to come up.
We said, “This is not the game that we’re best at. The game we’re best at is
doing joint ventures. It’s writing articles that make links to us, and letting
other people distribute those articles because they’re good. It’s making
appearances.” You can go as an attendee or a speaker at these big events that
are related. You’re with a group of people who are specifically interested in
what you’re doing.
That’s what we’ve decided to do. This book, How to Get Rich on the
Internet, has a number of links back to me. Those links are in a context where
I am delivering extreme value. I have people’s attention and they are
predisposed.
Dan:
The first way would be joint ventures. The second would be
Google. The third is cross- linking. What’s the fourth again?
Ted:
Writing articles. Number five is showing up, making appearances.
By the way, I always clump in Google and Overture together. They work
pretty much the same way.
Dan:
For joint ventures, before you approach your joint venture partners,
make sure your marketing piece is proven. Make sure your sales letter sells.
You don’t want your joint venture partner sending out an email and not
making one sale. They won’t be very happy with that.
Ted:
No. It’s really easy to make sure that letter sells.
Dan:
Test it with Google first. Make sure it’s proven.
Ted, what about offline marketing? Do you use offline mediums to drive
traffic to your websites?
Ted:
I sure do. As a matter of fact, we’re preparing a postcard right now
for the World Internet Summit. That’s basically what it is. We’re using a
postcard because it’s more economical. We use the smaller size so we can use
cheaper postage. We don’t have to pay anybody to fold them. The whole
drive is a drive-to page. Go to WorldInternetSummit.com.
Mail order of course includes ads also. I have run full-page ads where the
only close was to get them to go to a website.
Dan:
Newspaper or magazines?
Ted:
Magazines. Let me give you this. This is a real hint that not
everybody has the experience to tell you about. One of the ways that we use
mail order today is to sell our more expensive, more involved back end
products to buyers who came in off the Internet.
Dan:
Give me an example, Ted.
Ted:
I have a coaching program at ProtegeProgram.com. The program
sells for $9,997.We don’t get very many people who press submit and order
right off the Internet. I had to put it up there. I created it, right?
The way I really sell that program is from people who buy packages from me,
anywhere from a $20 book up to a $1,500, $2,000 package. Maybe they
attend my boot camp. I let them know through regular mail that this
program’s available.
What is the strategy there? Remember, on the Internet, even if people have
“heard your name,” which not everybody does, they still don’t know who you
are. You’re asking people to send a lot of money.
They may or may not be inclined to do that. On the other hand, if they’ve
already bought your $500 program, they know who you are. They’ve
consumed it. They’ve been impressed with the value. Now when you come to
them, you are a person who has credentials.
Long story short, we’ve found it so much easier to sell high dollar packages
to people who know who we are. We do it through mail.
Dan:
What you’re saying is it’s a combination of online and offline
media that works best?
Ted:
That’s what I call mail order in the Internet age.
Dan:
A lot of people think that the Internet is it. It’s free and it’s the best.
You can only market through the Internet. I think that’s not true. Direct mail
still works really well.
Ted:
It does. If your competitors are thinking that everything’s on the
Internet and therefore they’re not doing direct mail, that’s to your advantage.
Dan:
mail.
Ted:
A lot of my Internet marketing friends are just too lazy to do direct
That’s absolutely right.
Dan:
It is a ton of work but like you said, it’s all math. If it makes money,
then you do it.
Ted:
Not only that, it’s math in that in my office I have two full-time
people. I’m not folding letters and envelopes. It’s math. It’s easier to pay
someone wages to do that than to do it myself.
Dan:
Absolutely. Nowadays, you can outsource almost anything.
Shipping, fulfillment, everything.
Ted:
There’s a lot of ways to do it where you’re not the one who’s
folding it. It all comes back to math. Obviously, if you’re struggling in the
beginning, you’re going to be the one to fold those envelopes.
Dan:
It might not be a bad idea for beginners, I think. You get a feel for
what it’s like.
Ted:
That’s true. That’s exactly how I started.
Dan:
Ted, what if I already have a website? I’m getting a bit of traffic.
What are some of the things we can do to force it to make more money?
Ted:
One of the first things I would do, since you said you’re getting
traffic, is I would look very closely at the offer. I would look very closely at
the copy, the design, and the head- lines. I would start tracking my changes.
If you’re getting traffic and you’re not getting sales, it has to be related to
your copy or your offer. Your bonuses, headlines, that kind of stuff. That’s
where I would go to work.
Dan:
Ted, what about viral marketing? Do you use viral marketing to
promote your business?
Ted:
Definitely. I think viral marketing is the ultimate in low-cost, nocost marketing. Basically, you’re giving away something free and the word
spreads. For instance, How to Get Rich on the Internet is selling, and I’m
selling a lot of them on Amazon.
As you know, Amazon doesn’t necessarily give us the information on who
bought our books, but they could be prospects. Right? I ripped this idea off
Mike Litman. You see success, you copy success.
On the bottom of every page, “Bonus. Two killer free gifts at Get-Rich-onthe- Internet.com. That’s one form of viral marketing.
Any time you distribute an article and let other people print it for free,
assuming they don’t change it and run the resource box, that’s viral
marketing. Believe it or not, your affiliate program, where you encourage
people to do it and get paid, even that’s viral marketing.
People that said they didn’t want to use viral marketing really don’t
understand what it is and how quickly and easily it can pay.
Dan:
What about resell rights and reprint rights?
Ted:
That’s a form of viral marketing, too.
Dan:
I noticed that you have a couple of e-books for which you offer
resell rights to people.
Ted:
Absolutely. It’s good for them because they get the name
recognition. They get a quality product and they didn’t have to put in all the
time and effort, gather the experts, and do everything that I did. None of the
products that I sell go out without having some way of people finding me.
Giving people resell rights is another form of viral marketing. Let’s face it.
They’re selling it to make money, but who are they featuring? In this case
they’re featuring me. That’s a form of viral marketing.
I’ll give away the money. I give the duplication rights so that they can make
money, so I can make money.
By the way, I do the same thing with the book How to Get Rich on the
Internet. I’ve got it available in digital format, but I don’t want it distributed
that way. I want a physical book. The perceived value is higher.
Anybody who wants it, if they’ll buy it by the case I’ll sell it at my cost.
That’s $2.50 a book, delivered. There are 30 in a case. You pay $2.50 and
then you can sell for $20 and use it as bonuses. It’s a good deal for
everybody. Where else could you get a $20 book for $2.50?
For me, it’s viral marketing. It has my name, my picture, and my address. I’m
happy to sell it and make no money because I know the money will come
elsewhere.
Dan:
They get the profits. You get the customers.
Ted, would you like to talk about one or two of your programs that you think
would be good steps for our listeners?
Ted:
I sure would. This won’t surprise you after what we’ve talked about.
The World Internet Summit. They can go to WorldInternetSummit.com to get
more information. That’s happening in Nashville, Tennessee, this September
16 to 19. It’s at the Opryland Hotel. Basically, we’ve gathered world Internet
experts from all over.
One of the most outstanding things we’re doing is what we call the Internet
Challenge. This takes what we do out of the realm of, “Can they really do it?”
People are skeptical, and they ought to be. What we do is select someone live
from the audience. It’s random. It could be anybody who attends. We bring
them up on stage and go to work.
We brainstorm a product and create it. We create a website. We create copy.
We auto- mate it with AutoPilotRiches.com. We do the marketing. For the
rest of the event, 72 hours, we’ll be counting the money.
We did it twice in the U.S. Ken Kennett made $4,737. Daisy Kaybig from
San Francisco made $10,620.
Dan:
Within 72 hours?
Ted:
Within 72 hours. We doubled it the second time. It went up over
$10,000.What do you think started happening then? These were two U.S.
events and had two U.S. winners.
People started saying, “That’s good, but that only works in the U.S.” Oh my
goodness, please!
We had buyers from Belize, Singapore, Russia, Czechoslovakia, Saudi
Arabia. We had countries I didn’t even recognize. So, I went to Sydney,
Australia, to do this same thing and show them it could be done.
Margaret Burman. This lady was so poor! We were staying in a beautiful
hotel. It cost $250 a night for the room. It was Sydney’s finest, downtown on
Market Street. This lady was so poor that she was staying at a backpackers’
hostel about four blocks away, where she could sleep for $5 a night. She
comes in and, within 72 hours, made $11,431.
Dan:
She got her money back.
Ted:
That’s one of the things we do. We know there can only be one
winner. However, being potentially one out of 250 is a lot better than playing
the lottery.
Dan:
Plus, it’s the learning process that counts.
Ted:
That’s exactly what the whole thing is. People who didn’t win have
still had their lives transformed. They could see it all. They saw all the steps.
Dan:
It’s like you take them behind the scenes, Ted.
Ted:
That’s what it is. It’s not talk, talk, talk, “This is what you do.” It’s,
“Help me do this.” And we do. We do it together. We make decisions
together. We write headlines together. We decide what kind of offer we can
make.
We count the money together, too. That’s really fun. We wake up in the
morning, “Did we get a sale? Oh yes, we had two! Six hundred dollars!”
We’ve also got a man named Paul Culligan coming.
One thing people say is, “I don’t want to get into complicated stuff.” Let me
tell you, folks. If you can’t use Front Page, which is a simple web editor,
that’s like being a reporter and not being able to use Microsoft Word.
In this day and time, you don’t have to be a whiz, but you have to learn the
program. He’s teaching people within four hours. They will create their own
web page.
We have some of the greatest experts from all over the world. Armand
Morin, who most people listening to this call would know, will be there. Kurt
Christiansen, who has done major business makeovers with struggling
businesses, will be there.
Johan Mock, star of joint ventures, from Singapore, will be there. He knows
how to do joint ventures. David Cavanaugh, an Aussie. Talk about getting
your site to the top of the search engines, getting a million visitors, making
that $15,000 a week? He can show you how to do it.
Rob Bell. I’ve mentioned his program, AutoPilotRiches.com, several times.
What he really has is the ultimate e-commerce solution. He’ll be teaching
people how to do everything on AutoPilot. Sending out “thank you’s”,
running affiliate programs, processing credit cards, sending autoresponders,
making it easy.
Most people have seen how audio has become big these days. Mike Stew art
will be there with the Internet Audio Guy. That’s his U.S.B.
We have Jennie Armato. She came to us originally as someone wanting help
with her website. She said, “I’ll pay you, blah blah blah.” We said, “We’ll
take your money. Get ready.” We had a session.
She went out and did it. Her success was so rapid! Her characteristic is that
she went out and did it. She’s become a teacher. She’s helping women also.
She’ll do a program on that.
Tom Hua from Shanghai, China. English is his second language. He’s one of
the top e-book sellers on the Internet.
Dan:
He’s the owner of eBookWholesaler.com.
Ted:
Right. By the way, he’s also a co-organizer of the World Internet
Summit. He’s my partner.
Dan:
marketing.
Ted:
The World Internet Summit covers every aspect of Internet
That’s what it’s all about.
Dan:
If you could tell our listeners one thing about how to be a success
on the Internet, what would it be?
Ted:
You’re going to take me offline, because the secret to success online
does not really sound online. It’s, “Don’t stop. Study. Persist. Try again.”
I’m rewriting Napoleon Hill’s great classic, Think and Grow Rich. Principle
number eight, which he identifies as persistence, I’m now correlating with
Chapter 8.The number 8, if you look at it and tilt it sideways, is symbol of
eternity.
It loops in, goes around, comes around the other way. One time it’s going up.
One time it’s going down. It has all the rhythms of life in it. Day and night.
Morning and evening.
Winter and summer. Spring and fall. Effort and reward. That symbol of
eternity is the symbol of persistence.
What I’m telling you is that the ones who are successful are the ones who
keep at it. It’s a crackable code. You can’t say it’s not. Too many people have
done it.
On the other hand, we know that the majority of websites are not making
money. If you want to give up, that’s an absolute guaranteed way to be a
failure. The guaranteed way to be a success is to keep getting more education
and keep trying things until it works. That is the quality of persistence.
Dan:
Listeners, you can really get rich on the Internet. Thank you, Ted.
We’ll keep in touch. I’ll call you again.
Ted:
Dan, thank you for everything. It was a very enjoyable interview.
You’re a great host.
Dan:
Thank you. Bye.