#01 - Tim Ferriss: depression, psychedelics, and emotional resilience - Peter Attia
Peter Attia MD
July 2, 2018
MENTAL & EMOTIONAL HEALTH
#01 – Tim Ferriss: depression, psychedelics, and emotional
resilience
"It’s very hard for people to talk their way out of something that they didn’t talk their way into." —
Tim Ferriss
by
PETER ATTIA
read time
6 minutes
I
couldn’t think of a better guest to kick this thing off. Tim is not only one of my closest friends, but
also is the one who most persistently encouraged me to launch a podcast.
Want more content like this? Check out our interviews with Kristin Neff on the power of selfcompassion and Esther Perel on the effects of trauma.
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In this episode, Tim talks both experientially and from his own deep dive into the literature of
psychedelics and mental health. Tim is shifting his focus from investing in startups to funding
experiments that he hopes will establish more reliable knowledge and therapeutic options for those
suffering from anxiety, depression, and addiction.
https://peterattiamd.com/timferriss/[05/04/2023 13:20:22]
#01 - Tim Ferriss: depression, psychedelics, and emotional resilience - Peter Attia
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Tim Ferriss: depression, psychedelics, and emotional
resilience
If this topic even remotely interests you, I can’t recommend Tim’s podcast with Michael Pollan,
author of How to Change Your Mind, enough. (You should definitely read Pollan’s book as well.)
Even if you’ve never had any exposure to psychedelics or their potential applications, I think you’ll
find this subject matter really interesting, and I was very grateful for Tim to be so open and honest
about his experiences.
Tim also shared his short list of acquired wisdom he returns to most reliably, which might be worth
the price of admission alone.
We discuss:
Tim’s history of depression and his TED Talk on his close call with suicide;
The type of thinking that triggers Tim’s downward spirals;
Tim’s transformative experience with ayahuasca;
How Tim’s experience and research has led him to focus on furthering the science of
psychedelics and mental health;
What some of the meditation modalities, and meditation apps, are out there, why can meditation
be so hard to do, but also worthwhile to stick with;
Why Tim made a big commitment (more than $1 million) to funding scientific research, and to
psilocybin and MDMA research, in particular;
From all the habits and tools that Tim has learned, the five things that he returns to most
reliably; and
More.
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#01 - Tim Ferriss: depression,
psychedelics, and emotional
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close friend Tim Ferriss, lifehacker, podcaster
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and author of multiple best-selling books
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includes The 4-Hour Workweek, The 4-Hour Body,
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#01 - Tim Ferriss: depression, psychedelics, and emotional resilience - Peter Attia
In this podcast we cover mental health, depression, and
150%
our mutual interest in psychedelics as potential
therapeutic agents. Tim talks both experientially and from
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his own deep dive into the literature of psychedelics and
175%
mental health. Tim is shifting his focus from investing in
startups to funding plus
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SHOW NOTES
What it’s like living in Austin. [01:00]
The differences between lifespan and healthspan. [08:00]
289
During childhood and adolescence, Tim believed he was “not designed to be happy.” [09:30]
Tim’s TED Talk and his close call with suicide. [11:15]
288
Why Tim wants to focus on discussing different facets of mental health on a first-hand basis. [15:15]
287 [17:15]
What’s the type of thinking that triggers Tim’s downward spirals?
Why Tim’s changed his focus from investing in startups to investing in mental health. [18:00]
How self-talk can be your best friend or worst enemy. [20:00]
286
Why Tim thinks everyone, including Type A personalities, should try meditation. [23:00]
285
Why men, in general, are bad at dealing with depression. [31:00]
Peter’s (newly) most-gifted book, which is related to men and depression (I Don’t Want To Talk
284
About It by Terrence Real). (Peter’s previous #1 book: Mistakes Were Made [but not by me] by Carol
Tavris and Elliot Aronson.) [32:45]
The benefits and drawbacks of self-talk. [35:00]
283
“The need to treat ourselves as well as we treat others. It’s women’s version of the Golden Rule.” —
Gloria Steinem [37:00]
282
How a couple of Tim’s podcasts (The Psychedelic Explorer’s Guide – Risks, Micro-Dosing, Ibogaine,
and More and Are Psychedelic Drugs the Next Medical Breakthrough?
made Peter aware of the
281
effectiveness of plants to treat patients. [38:30]
Peter’s first experience with psilocybin. [40:30]
What started Tim’s interest in psychedelics? [41:30]
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280
#01 - Tim Ferriss: depression, psychedelics, and emotional resilience - Peter Attia
Tim’s transformative experience with ayahuasca. [48:45]
How Tim’s experience and research led him to focus on furthering the science of psychedelics and
mental health. [53:00]
How do you explain the ineffability of psychedelic experiences? [57:00]
What is ego dissolution, and how do you explain it? [1:00:00]
What are some of the meditation modalities, and meditation apps out there? Why can meditation be so
hard to do, but worthwhile to stick with? [1:13:00]
Tim notes, “The consistent program that you follow is better than the perfect program that you quit.”
[1:26:30]
Why has Tim made a big commitment (more than $1 million) to funding scientific research, and to
psilocybin and MDMA research, in particular? [1:31:00]
The story of Katharine McCormick and the birth control pill, and what a small number of committed
people can do to change the course of history. [1:34:30]
Why the FDA granted MDMA-assisted psychotherapy breakthrough therapy designation (which
could expedite approval) for the treatment of PTSD, and how a Phase 3 clinical trial is in motion.
[1:43:43]
Ibogaine and the treatment of opiate addiction. [1:48:30]
What is the Default Mode Network (DMN), how does it relate to mental health, and how do
psychedelic compounds affect the DMN? [1:49:30]
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#01 - Tim Ferriss: depression, psychedelics, and emotional resilience - Peter Attia
Image credit: Homological scaffolds of brain functional networks (Petri et al., 2014)
Here’s Michael Pollan explaining the DMN, and the side-by-side images in figure above, in How To
Change Your Mind “In a 2014 paper published in the Journal of the Royal Society Interface, the
Imperial College team demonstrated how the usual lines of communications within the brain are
radically reorganized when the default mode network goes off-line and the tide of entropy is allowed
to rise. Using a scanning technique called magnetoencephalography, which maps electrical activity in
the brain, the authors produced a map of the brain’s internal communications during normal waking
consciousness and after an injection of psilocybin (shown [above]). In its normal state, shown on the
left, the brain’s various networks (here depicted lining the circle, each represented by a different
color) talk mostly to themselves, with a relatively few heavily trafficked pathways among them.
“But when the brain operates under the influence of psilocybin, as shown on the right, thousands of
new connections form, linking far-flung brain regions that during normal waking consciousness don’t
exchange much information. In effect, traffic is rerouted from a relatively small number of interstate
highways onto myriad smaller roads linking a great many more destinations. The brain appears to
become less specialized and more globally interconnected, with considerably more intercourse, or
“cross talk,” among its various neighborhoods.”
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#01 - Tim Ferriss: depression, psychedelics, and emotional resilience - Peter Attia
How MDMA, in the right setting, may help us “clean up a very messy experience that did a lot of
damage,” Tim says. “To help people to heal themselves in nonverbal ways. This is really key. It’s
very hard for people to talk their way out of something that they didn’t talk their way into.” [1:53:30]
Why has ibogaine gained the least traction in the US for treatment of opiate addiction? [2:00:00]
Tim’s first-hand experience with opiate addiction and overdoses. [2:06:30]
Unhappiness may be the single most important problem plaguing our civilization, and there are
compounds that may be part of the solution. Is progress being made in terms of pushing through
research and application? [2:13:30]
What does it take to reschedule a drug? [2:16:30]
The non-addictive potential of psychedelics. Food vs cocaine vs psilocybin. [2:18:00]
How Solve for Happy by Mo Gawdat has jumped into the #2 spot for most-gifted books from Peter.
[2:23:50]
Peter’s most gifted or recommended books:
I Don’t Want To Talk About It by Terrence Real
Solve for Happy by Mo Gawdat
Mistakes Were Made (but not by me) by Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson
Surely You’re Joking Mr. Feynman! by Richard P. Feynman and Ralph Leighton
Tim’s most gifted or recommended books:
Letters from a Stoic by Lucius Annaeus Seneca or The Tao of Seneca
Zorba the Greek by Nikos Kazantzakis
Stranger in a Strange Land by Robert A. Heinlein
Surely You’re Joking Mr. Feynman! by Richard P. Feynman and Ralph Leighton
Was there anything not in Pollan’s book that Tim would have added? [2:25:00]
How Peter is very proud to be one of the “Biggest Tools” and where people can find Egg Boxing.
[2:31:00]
From all the habits and tools that Tim has learned, what are the 3-5 things that he returns to most
reliably? [2:33:00]
What advice would Tim give to his 20- or 30-year-old self? [2:36:00]
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#01 - Tim Ferriss: depression, psychedelics, and emotional resilience - Peter Attia
§
SELECTED LINKS / RELATED MATERIAL
Why you should define your fears instead of your goals | Tim Ferriss | youtube.com
The 4-Hour Workweek by Tim Ferriss
The 4-Hour Chef by Tim Ferriss
The 4-Hour Body by Tim Ferriss
Tools of Titans by Tim Ferriss
Tribe of Mentors by Tim Ferriss
Michael Pollan — Exploring The New Science of Psychedelics | the Tim Ferriss Show
Mistakes Were Made (but Not by Me) by Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson
I Don’t Want To Talk About It by Terrence Real
Solve for Happy by Mo Gawdat
Are Psychedelic Drugs the Next Medical Breakthrough? — Martin Polanco and Dan Engle on
the Tim Ferriss Show
The Psychedelic Explorer’s Guide – Risks, Micro-Dosing, Ibogaine, and More — James
Fadiman on the Tim Ferriss Show
This is Water by David Foster Wallace (Full Transcript and Audio) | fs.blog
How to Change Your Mind by Michael Pollan
Waking Up | Sam Harris meditation app
Awareness Meditation | wikihow.com
Transcendental Meditation | tm.org
Focused attention, open monitoring and loving kindness meditation: effects on attention,
conflict monitoring, and creativity – A review (Lippelt et al., 2014)
Headspace app | headspace.com
Calm app | calm.com
Altered Traits by Daniel Goleman and Richard J. Davidson
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#01 - Tim Ferriss: depression, psychedelics, and emotional resilience - Peter Attia
The Science of Meditation — A conversation with Daniel Goleman and Richard J. Davidson |
Waking Up Podcast
Radical Acceptance by Tara Brach
The Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies (MAPS) | maps.org
Help Tim Ferriss Fund Research for the Treatment of Major Depression | crowdrise.com
Council on Spiritual Practices | csp.org
Psilocybin can occasion mystical-type experiences having substantial and sustained personal
meaning and spiritual significance (Griffiths et al., 2006)
Mystical-type experiences occasioned by psilocybin mediate the attribution of personal meaning
and spiritual significance 14 months later (Griffiths et al., 2008)
Meditation leads to reduced default mode network activity beyond an active task (Garrison et
al., 2016)
The entropic brain: a theory of conscious states informed by neuroimaging research with
psychedelic drugs (Carhart-Harris et al., 2014)
Psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression: fMRI-measured brain mechanisms (CarhartHarris et al., 2017)
Neural correlates of the psychedelic state as determined by fMRI studies with psilocybin
(Carhart-Harris et al., 2012)
Homological scaffolds of brain functional networks (Petri et al., 2014)
Drug Deaths in America Are Rising Faster Than Ever | nytimes.com
Why We’re Donating $5 Million to MAPS | drbronner.com
Solve for Happy by Mo Gawdat
Egg Boxing | peterattiamd.com
Gran Torino | wikipedia.org
Back Jack Floor Chair | amazon.com
Jack Kornfield – Finding Freedom, Love, and Joy in the Present | The Tim Ferriss Show
The Magic of Mindfulness: Complain Less, Appreciate More, and Live a Better Life | The Tim
Ferriss Show
Podcast Gear | The Tim Ferriss Show
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#01 - Tim Ferriss: depression, psychedelics, and emotional resilience - Peter Attia
How to Build Popular Podcasts and Blogs | The Tim Ferriss Show
Topo Chico | amazon.com
Search Inside Yourself | siyli.org
Meditation on Loving Kindness | jackkornfield.com
§
PEOPLE MENTIONED
Michael Pollan
Jim Loehr
Josh Waitzkin
Rick Rubin
Chase Jarvis
Brené Brown
Tara Brach
Jack Kornfield
Terrence Real
Esther Perel
Paul Conti
Martin Polanco
Dan Engle
James Fadiman
Terence McKenna
David Foster Wallace
Corey McCarthy
Sam Harris
Jeff Warren
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#01 - Tim Ferriss: depression, psychedelics, and emotional resilience - Peter Attia
Dan Harris
Gabor Maté
Katharine McCormick
Gregory Goodwin Pincus
John McPhee
Chade-Meng Tan
Jocko Willink
Clint Eastwood
§
TIM FERRISS
Tim Ferriss has been listed as one of Fast Company‘s “Most
Innovative Business People” and one of Fortune‘s “40 under 40.”
He is an early-stage technology investor/advisor (Uber, Facebook,
Shopify, Duolingo, Alibaba, and 50+ others) and the author of
five #1 New York Times and Wall Street Journal bestsellers,
including The 4-Hour Workweek and Tools of Titans: The
Tactics, Routines, and Habits of Billionaires, Icons, and WorldClass Performers. The Observer and other media have called Tim
“the Oprah of audio” due to the influence of The Tim Ferriss Show podcast, which is the first
business/interview podcast to exceed 200 million downloads.
Tim on Facebook: Tim Ferriss
Tim on Instagram: @timferriss
Tim on Twitter: @tferriss
Tim’s website: tim.blog
Tim’s podcast: tim.blog/podcast
OTHER CONTENT YOU MAY LIKE
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#01 - Tim Ferriss: depression, psychedelics, and emotional resilience - Peter Attia
UNDERSTANDING SCIENCE
#249 ‒ How the brain works, Andrew’s
fascinating backstory, improving scientific
literacy, and more | Andrew Huberman, Ph.D.
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SCIENCE OF AGING
#248 ‒ OUTLIVE book: A behind-the-scenes
look into the writing of this book, motivation,
main themes, and more
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#01 - Tim Ferriss: depression, psychedelics, and emotional resilience - Peter Attia
CARDIOVASCULAR DISEASE
#247 ‒ Preventing cardiovascular disease: the
latest in diagnostic imaging, blood pressure,
metabolic health, and more | Ethan Weiss, M.D.
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#01 - Tim Ferriss: depression, psychedelics, and emotional resilience - Peter Attia
MENTAL & EMOTIONAL HEALTH
Finding the right fit in a psychotherapist
Disclaimer: This blog is for general informational purposes only and does not constitute the practice of medicine, nursing or other
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condition they may have, and should seek the assistance of their health care professionals for any such conditions.
13 Comments
Join the conversation
Jack Gibbon
July 2, 2018 at 12:37 pm
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#01 - Tim Ferriss: depression, psychedelics, and emotional resilience - Peter Attia
Lovely podcast … tons of reminders and much new stuff to ponder on … Thanks Peter and Tim
Optimal Minimal!! Peter very grateful for you starting this podcast
Andrew Fuller
July 3, 2018 at 12:33 pm
Does anyone have any references or suggested reading for 7 day fasting for ketosis? Benefits? I
know there is a ton of reading out there for fasting and for a ketogenic diet. However, it seemed
to be suggested that Tim fasts quarterly for 7 days to attain a period of Ketosis. I’m fairly active
(run, cycle, swim, weight train, rock climb etc…) and have a low body fat %. So not looking for
the benefits of fat burn necessarily, just find the subject interesting and would like more info.
Any info would be great! Great Podcast! Keep them coming!
Felix Dragoi
July 4, 2018 at 1:40 pm
Hello Andrew.
To be honest, the fast with the highest use I’ve seen is the 3 day fast. All the others might be too
extreme and even Tim usually mentions that a keto diet alone should be taken seriously,
otherwise you’re doing more harm than good.
A 3 day fast or a fasting mimicking diet should yield similar results, in case someone wants an
easier way to get those benefits. However, if you’re in ketosis before having the 3 days fast, it
shouldn’t much of an effort and the 3 days fast is in my opinion the safer bet than something
discovered so recently as the FMD, but hey, worth a try.
~Felix
Jean-François Goyette
July 3, 2018 at 1:43 pm
I am so glad that you started your own podcast.
Felix Dragoi
July 4, 2018 at 1:48 pm
Hello Peter.
Great to see your own podcast. It was definitely a good first episode. Strangely Tim seems to
have some good persuading powers to be the first guest, since it happened with Rolf Potts and
Cal Fusman as well if I’m not mistaken.
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#01 - Tim Ferriss: depression, psychedelics, and emotional resilience - Peter Attia
But anyhow, although not my favorite subject, it seems psychedelics deserve more attention and
I have to say that the last part was very important to add, since those 3-5 things, that obviously
became 5, are really as important as their honorable mention in the top spots.
One technical question I have is about the show notes. This one in particular doesn’t seem to be
right, if I am not somehow missing something:
What advice would Tim give to his 20- or 30-year-old self? [2:36:00]
Looking forward to other episodes.
~Felix
Catherine De Marin
July 9, 2018 at 8:23 am
Hello Peter – thank you so much for making your abundant resources so freely available. I
especially appreciate your candor and willingness to be so deeply personal about these issues. I
have picked up the Terrence Real book at your recommendation. Wow. It’s given me so much
more understanding about the men in my life. You are a wonderful teacher – presenting vital
information while challenging the listener/reader to go deeper. Your being and work have
certainly improved the quality of my life.
Bob Kaplan
July 10, 2018 at 4:33 pm
Carhart-Harris. Take a look at the selected links / related material and you’ll find some papers
from him and his group.
Steve LaRosa
July 12, 2018 at 12:54 pm
Just listened to the first episode.
Fantastic job, Peter!!!
Keep them coming.
Josué Cardona
August 8, 2018 at 11:49 am
Hi Peter! Your episodes on the Tim Ferriss show are the ones I’ve repeated the most. SO
HAPPY that you finally started this. I have a mental health counseling degree and I’ve
experienced some of what you and Tim attempted to describe as experiences with psychedelics,
through Vipassana meditation. After my first Viapassana experience I began to think that this
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#01 - Tim Ferriss: depression, psychedelics, and emotional resilience - Peter Attia
would be way more effective than the psychotherapy I was trained to do. It completely changed
the way I saw psychotherapy.
I have so much I want to say and ask you and Tim but I’ll only ask one question: Do you or Tim
know of any research into treatment “pathways” or how to move people from one treatment to
the next? I’m very interested in how we’ll visualize psychedelics in the future as a part of overall
treatment strategies but right I’m interested in how to help people navigate what we already have.
Perhaps you have some insights on this within the medical field? I don’t mean just moving
people through a system, I mean visualizing all treatment options, placing people on the map
based on different variables, and then helping them move through that map. I don’t think current
models account for all possibilities and I think artificial intelligence is the only way to really help
people navigate all their options. This is my current professional/research obsession and would
love to hear any insights you have on this.
Jamie Moffat
May 9, 2019 at 5:39 pm
Have you read any Chogyam Trungpa, Peter?
What Tim calls ‘open monitoring’ is called Shamatha
I like Sam’s stuff too but sometimes feel he gears it too towards the individual approach. Maybe
that just helps with the whole marketing to individuals thing, but sometimes seems like he misses
the bodhicitta aspects of things, or the drive to benefit others without any gaining ideas or
aspirations for the self.
Anyways, the idea that everything is a stage- check out Trungpa’s writings on mahamudra.
Everything is malleable.
Thich Nhat Hanh has great writing – taming the tiger within, transformation and healing, no mud
no lotus, reconciliation: healing the child within, being peace, the miracle of mindfulness- all
fantastic.
Trungpa – he has the dharma ocean series which goes pretty much end to end and is very
comprehensive. Training the mind and cultivating loving kindness is fantastic. The sanity we are
born with is also great. Cutting through spiritual Materialism and meditation in action are both
classics as well. Highly recommend, for what it’s worth.
Really enjoyed the podcast, looking forward to listening to other episodes. Cheers
Alex Kerr
May 22, 2019 at 9:11 am
What a fantastic episode. Although I have tried psychedelics, I have done mindfulness
meditation for 3 years and have definitely experienced a ‘re-set’ on the way i view my thoughts,
emotions, others and the world. It truly did change my life or the better. The frustrating part is
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#01 - Tim Ferriss: depression, psychedelics, and emotional resilience - Peter Attia
trying to describe to others the impact and just how easy it actually is with dedication and a
willingness to integrate into the ‘real world’. If life was a game of the mind, then meditation is
the training. You don’t win games unless you train.
One thing I would like to offer my insights to being an ex clubber. I have taken MDMA many
hundreds of times in my life, albeit some years ago now, in my late teens, early twenties. When i
think back to my social awkwardness and a distinct lack of many friends before these days, I am
still very grateful for discovering clubbing because regardless of the setting, MDMA brings
down social barriers. I formed my closest bonds with people not in the club, but after when we
were free to talk with zero judgement and pure acceptance about things that from the outside
were quite deep and not typical everyday conversation.
These experiences definitely changed the way I communicated and thought about others. Many
of my current friends are from that era 20 years ago!
I would also like to say that I probably became over emotional during that period and can’t deny
that ‘come downs’ can also be impactful in a negative way.
After watching ‘trip of compassion’ I can definitely see that in a different setting, MDMA is
incredibly powerful in a good way.
Alexander
July 4, 2019 at 10:29 am
Based on my experience, I can say that only an understanding of the cause of their occurrence
helped me overcome anxiety and depression. I learned this knowledge from a film
https://allatra.tv/en/video/game-of-professionals-what-is-consciousness-film-1 in which an
international group of psychologists in the form of a game revealed information about what
consciousness is, who such a person is, where thoughts come from and how to overcome
obsessions in oneself. The site also contains information about the PYRAMID experiment, which
generally reveals the purpose of the pyramids and how they affect people.
alicia
November 19, 2019 at 6:35 pm
Hi Peter,
Is there a spot in where you list out all the book recommendations mentioned in this podcast?
Absolutely awesome. As a young neuroscience researcher I am so grateful to the insights of
those that have done all of the self-experimentation!
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#01 - Tim Ferriss: depression, psychedelics, and emotional resilience - Peter Attia
Peter Attia MD
Peter Attia is a physician focusing on
the applied science of longevity.
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