Everything Malaysia’s Mahathir told Asia Times
Two-time Malaysian leader lays bare his last stand drive for power in an exclusive interview
with Asia Times
By NILE BOWIE & SHAWN W CRISPIN | JUNE 26, 2020
Four months after his shock resignation, former Malaysian prime minister Mahathir
Mohamad has his sights set on yet another political comeback. In league with multi-racial
opposition parties, the elder statesman hopes to unseat yet another ally-turned-foe
successor whose rule he claims threatens a return to corrupt and authoritarian misrule.
Prevailing in an against-all-olds election win in 2018, Mahathir partnered with his estranged
protégé and former deputy, Anwar Ibrahim, to topple scandal-plagued Najib Razak’s
premiership, heralding Malaysia’s first-ever democratic transfer of power and bringing an
end to the United Malays National Organization’s (UMNO) 61-year rule.
Mahathir’s Pakatan Harapan (PH) government, however, fell less than two years into its
mandate, as the leadership of his own party, Parti Pribumi Bersatu Malaysia (PPBM), or
Bersatu, staged a political coup and formed a new, unelected government propped by
UMNO that brought incumbent Prime Minister Muhyiddin Yassin to power in February.
In a wide-ranging interview with Asia Times’ Nile Bowie and Shawn W Crispin, the
nonagenarian politician articulated his plans to recapture the premiership for an
unprecedented third term, touching on everything from his relationship with Anwar, his
leadership legacy and Malaysia’s place amid intensifying US-China superpower rivalry.
•••
Asia Times: Why are you now trying to regain the premiership for a third time?
Mahathir: Well, when I had served the country for 21 years, I thought that was long enough
and I thought that younger people should take over from me. I declared that I was stepping
down, but they asked me to stay for one more year, which I did. After 22 years as prime
minister [1981-2003], I resigned to give place to other people.
Unfortunately, when my successors took over, a lot of people felt very unhappy. They all
came to see me and asked me please do something, please do something. Now, what could
I do? I tried advising, I tried to tell them that they should not do these things which the
people do not like, but I was not successful.
During the tenure of the 5th prime minister [Abdullah Ahmad Badawi], I eventually had to
leave the party and I had to expose all the wrong things that he was doing. In 2008, he did
very badly in the 12th election and I suggested that he should handover the prime
ministership to Najib [Razak], who was his deputy.
He retired and Najib took over, and I thought everything would be solved because Najib is
the son of the 2nd prime minister [Abdul Razak Hussein], who is very revered by the people
because he did a good job as prime minister. Unfortunately, when Najib took over, things
got worse.
He began borrowing huge sums of money, spending it in the wrong way. Money
disappeared and all that. And because of that, again, people came to see me to ask me
please do something, please do something. I again tried to advise, but I was told by Najib
that my advice on how to win the support of people was not relevant.
He believes that, with money, you can get people to support you. And he had no money –
he had to steal the money, and that is wrong. He was involved in money laundering,
borrowing huge sums of money, spending some of it on himself, his wife, and then trying to
bribe people into supporting him.
I left UMNO and formed another party mainly to go against him, and I worked with the
opposition parties and as you know, in the 14th election, we managed to win, something
that was not expected because Najib’s party, the UMNO and Barisan Nasional, had been in
power for 60 years, winning every election.
And when I was there as president, I used to win by a two-thirds majority in five consecutive
elections. But then in the 14th general election, people were so much against Najib that
they decided that that was enough, that time was up and therefore they should not be the
government anymore.
And they chose a coalition formed by me and the opposition, they supported this new
coalition and that’s how I came to be again appointed prime minister. It’s not my choice,
honestly. I would like to retire like everybody else, but I get these people coming who say
please do something, please do something. So that’s why I became prime minister once
again in 2018.
AT: Are you satisfied with the performance of your previous, recently dissolved PH
government?
Mahathir: We made a lot of promises. Some of those promises could be carried out, but
some are obstructed by provisions in the constitution, for example, so those we cannot do.
We have done away with all those draconian laws. We have removed all the corrupt officials
in the government.
We have changed the leadership of government companies and institutions from being led
by politicians, to being led by professionals. We want to stop this corruption, because all
these politicians stole money from these institutions and the companies who were doing
very badly. So, we changed.
And at the same time, one of the things that I always feel was special about Malaysia, the
transition was smooth and we could form a new government of five parties, and we could
function as a new government. We had the administration carrying out our policies and
doing well, but of course the time was very short. It wasn’t even two years.
But what we have achieved within that short period of time, I think it is quite something by
comparison with other countries where, when there is a transition, a change of leadership, a
change of government, there is always a lot of problems like demonstrations and strikes,
bringing down the elected government and all that.
AT: If you were to assume a third term, what would you do differently than incumbent
Prime Minister Muhyiddin Yassin’s government?
Mahathir: Well, not much different. You see, this present government have reversed all the
things that we have done. For example, they have removed all the professional chairmen of
companies and all that to be replaced by, again, the politicians.
And with these politicians, some of them are facing [corruption] charges in the courts, they
shouldn’t be appointed as chairmen, but they have removed all the professional people we
have appointed, so this has got to be reversed again. I mean, its tedious and very irritating
that we should have to do that. But again, the practice of this government is to try to
eliminate opposition to it.
AT: If Muhyiddin survives a vote of no-confidence brought by you when Parliament sits in
July, what would be your next move?
Mahathir: Well if we lose, then we’ll have to wait for the general election. But this vote of
no-confidence is valuable because it will give me a chance to list out all the wrong things
that has been done by Muhyiddin, particularly with regard to his undermining his own
coalition government in order to become prime minister. He does it through the backdoor,
not in accordance with normal democratic practices.
And there are many other things that he is doing. He has become quite a dictator. He is
dismissing people, appointing people at will, without any reference to law or party rules and
regulations, or constitution. He just gives orders. And unfortunately people seem to accept
his decisions.
For example, I am the chairmen of the party (ruling Bersatu). For no reason that I know, he
just dismissed me from being a member of the party. What right has he? He should ask me
to go to the disciplinary committee or something. But no, he dismissed me and many
others, even at the branch level…That is not the kind of government we like to see in
Malaysia.
AT: Do you think Muhyiddin is popular among ordinary Malays, the constituency you have
sought to appeal to as part of your multi-racial coalition?
Mahathir: Well, initially he was quite popular because he says that he’s going to form a
Malay Muslim government. Of course, the Malays like that. And then he says that DAP
(Democratic Action Party) will destroy the Malays, so we need to bring down DAP.
A lot of Malays believe what he says. But now they find that he is worse than the Najib
government in terms of administration. He tends to do things on his own without any
authority, any legal standing. So, people now are beginning to see the true Muhyiddin.
AT: If snap elections were held next week, who would win - you or Muhyiddin?
Mahathir: [Laughs] I think he will not win. Who will win will be the party that lost the last
election, UMNO, and Najib, provided of course if Najib is found not guilty. And we feel that
that is what they are working towards. They want to declare Najib not guilty because if he is
found guilty, together with five other people, then Muhyiddin would lose his majority.
So Muhyiddin has to make sure that Najib is not found guilty. But if he is not found guilty,
then he is going to compete in the election, and I think he’s going to undermine the
leadership of Muhyiddin in particular because he wants to be again the prime minister.
AT: How much influence and actual control over this current government would you say
Najib wields from behind the scenes?
Mahathir: Well, quite a lot. Muhyiddin knows that without Najib’s support, his government
will collapse. So he has to support Najib. But to support Najib means you have to pay a high
price, because Najib’s whole idea is that if he can seize the power from the elected
government and be a part of the new government, then he would have influence.
He would be able to, somehow or other, wrangle things so that he will not be found guilty.
Of course, at this moment, the trial is still going on. But we have seen in four other cases
where people who were always thought to be guilty suddenly found himself free of charges.
46 charges were withdrawn from one case (former UMNO chief minister in Sabah, Musa
Aman).
AT: Anwar Ibrahim has refused to serve as your deputy, and you have declined to work with
him again. Do you see Anwar as being unfit to lead? What is really at the core of your
disagreement with or distrust of your former deputy?
Mahathir: It’s not about distrust. It’s about getting the support of the people. While Anwar
used to be very popular, now he has lost quite a bit of the support. I believe these people
will not support an attempt to make a comeback by Pakatan Harapan if he is designated as
prime minister.
A lot of people feel that, for a time at least, I should come back. I have no wish to come
back. I mean, coming back three times is a bit too much. [Laughs] Again, the appeal by
people is there, they all come, they all ask [and say] that if you are in, we will support. If you
are not in, we will not support.
So, I have to take their views seriously because if we in the opposition now want to bring
down the present government, we need to have a majority. At the moment, we do not have
a majority.
AT: So why can’t Anwar forge that majority? Why does it take you, not him?
Mahathir: Well, he has certain support, I agree with that. But there are certain people who
are so strongly against him that if he is named, they will not give the support. And we need
quite a number of supporters from the government party so that we can have the majority.
I fear that there will be no majority if it depends on him alone. I would like to help him.
AT: If you are not going to work with Anwar and his Parti Keadilan Rakyat (PKR), then
mathematically you will need to partner with elements of the current PN government to
secure a majority. In that respect, do you consider [Minister of International Trade and
Industry] Mohamed Azmin Ali a “traitor” and would you work with him if he formed a new
party?
Mahathir: Well, Azmin is a disappointment. I was very close to him, but he was part of this
plot to change the government. Basically, he doesn’t like Anwar. He doesn’t want Anwar to
be the next prime minister. He wants to withdraw support from the party which is headed
by Anwar, so he took a number of their members out.
He joined Muhyiddin and they have formed a government now, but I find that such plotting
is not good for government. We shouldn’t plot and try and negate the wishes of the people.
The people had already chosen their government. But you go through the backdoor, you
manipulate things and you want to be the new government together with the [preceding]
government rejected by the people.
The people are disappointed. They took a lot of trouble to defeat that party, UMNO and BN.
And now, those who are chosen by the people worked to frustrate the wishes of the people.
And people are not happy about that.
AT: Prior to the fall of your Pakatan Harapan government, many people speculated you in
fact preferred Azmin to succeed you rather than Anwar. Was that ever the case?
Mahathir: No. I have made my promise. I will step down but after that, it is up to the
members of Parliament to give their support to the candidate. They can choose Anwar, of
course, but they may not want to choose Anwar. That is up to them, it’s not for me to
deicide.
Because normally the candidate for prime ministership [needs] support of the majority of
the members of Parliament. I can determine that to a certain extent there are others who
have other ideas, so it is up to them. If they want Anwar, he will be there. If they want
Azmin, he will be there. But I think Azmin has, well, done something that the people do not
like.
AT: On other ideas for prime minister, do you think your son, Mukhriz Mahathir, would
make a good future prime minister?
Mahathir: [Laughs] Well, it’s up to him. You see, when I was prime minister, I didn’t allow
my sons to be involved in politics. I don’t want people to accuse me of nepotism. But I
stepped down. They have a right to go into politics and Mukhriz seems to be the one most
interested.
He has been made chief minister of the state of Kedah, and obviously he is one of the
leaders. If people like him, it is up to them to choose, not for me. I don’t choose. I have
always abided by the choice made by the people.
AT: But do you think he would have risen to the same national prominence if he was not
your son?
Mahathir: [Laughs] He has his own way. Actually, he could have done better. During the
time of [former Prime Minister] Abdullah [Badawi], he was competing against Abdullah’s
son in law and he lost, and because of that he is not prominent in the center. He is only
prominent in his own state.
AT: If you are unable to regain control of your political party, Bersatu, will you and your
faction remain independents in Parliament or would you consider joining a party you are
aligned with, such as the DAP, which is currently the largest opposition party?
Mahathir: [Laughs] I don’t think I would join the DAP. As you know, they are making DAP
the scapegoat. They blame the DAP for controlling the government so as to win over Malay
support for them. But if I join the DAP, which is predominantly Chinese, I don’t think that
would be well accepted by the people.
I have always represented the Malay segment of the population, it has always been from
the very beginning that way and I think I will continue to do that one way or another,
whether it is through joining another party or being independent or forming another party.
These are options that I don’t think I need to make at the moment.
AT: How would you respond to criticism that you currently run the risk of slipping into the
political wilderness and that your current drive for power is more a personal power play
than your 2018 drive for reform and justice?
Mahathir: Well, if people don’t want me, that’s okay. [Laughs] I go by the wishes of the
people. I don’t think I will be popular always. In fact, I criticize people quite a lot and many
of them feel very unhappy with me.
I am not supported 100% by the people, a majority of them used to support me. But maybe
now they have changed their minds. But in politics, of course, sometimes you go up and
sometimes you lose. You have to accept that, and I am willing to accept that.
AT: As a two-time premier, who was often popular, sometimes not, what is your biggest
political regret?
Mahathir: My regret is my attempt to ensure that people are equally benefiting from the
country. That is where I failed. I find that the disparity in terms of wealth between the
different races is still very big. That may cause resentment and may even lead to a lot of
tension and confrontation.
I tried to do that in my 22 years, but there I only succeed a little. But we need to do a little
bit more because there is a disparity between town and country, from state to state,
between people of different ethnic origins. All these things will undermine the stability of
the country. That is what I tried to do, and I did not fail completely, but I failed quite a bit.
Some success, but mostly failure.
AT: During your first tenure in the 1980’s, you put out a 2020 vision target speaking to some
of these issues. It’s now 2020. Did we hit or miss?
Mahathir: [Laughs] There was a 30-year period of time to achieve developed country status,
that was what, at the rate of growth, we were achieving in the 80s, we believed that we
could achieve this ambition to become a fully developed country.
Unfortunately, after I stepped down in 2003, the two governments which succeeded me
decided on a different course, on a different way of administering the country. Mostly they
have shown a degree of corruption that is not contributing towards the growth of the
country. So, because of that – today is 2020 – we have not been able to achieve the target.
But we feel that with a new policy, where we would get rid of all the things that were
abused by the previous people, I think by 2030 we may achieve that status as a developed
country.
AT: Critics would say many of Malaysia’s problems are rooted in the political culture of the
UMNO machine you commandeered and built. So, in retrospect, do you regret forging
UMNO into the political force that it is today?
Mahathir: No, I inherited that. You see, in most multiracial countries the indigenous people
formulate the culture. Mostly people identify with the people who are already there. For
example, America, the first settlers were British and they brought the English language and
the British culture, and subsequent migrants adopted that, and the same thing in many
other countries.
But in Malaysia, we find reluctance to adopt the culture, the language of the indigenous
people. They want to retain their identity with the country they come from, and because of
that there is always this separation based on race, based on where we originate from.
When you want to have a political party that is multi-racial, there is a reluctance on the part
of many races to support a multi-racial party. They want you to represent them, that
particular race, so we have to respond to that.
You want to be popular, you want to be supported, you must know what the people feel
and they still feel very much attached to their own race. If you say, forget about that, we
must be multi-racial, the result is that you never get to be a government. You will never win
an election.
Over the years, UMNO remained in power. As they say, power corrupts. Initially UMNO was
very clean. When we fought against the British, against the Malayan Union, no money was
involved. We all made sacrifices.
But later on when we became independent, people realized that if you’re actively in politics,
you can actually become quite rich. You can become a minister, a prime minister. Instead of
focusing on the development of the country, on solving all the many economic problems,
they decided that they must become politicians.
And to do that, many resort to bribes. They use money, and when they use money, then
there arises a need for them to have the money. And how do they get the money? They try
to get into some companies, of course promoted by their government, and as a result, the
politicians become quite corrupt.
I was telling them way back when I was prime minister in my first term, I was telling them at
the rate you’re going, you’re going to lose the election. But they managed to survive until
the 14th election. The 14th general election was because people did not like this corruption.
That’s why they defeated the incumbent government and decided to choose [our]
opposition.
AT: How were you able to finance your movement without the benefit of government
coffers?
Mahathir: Well, I kept on telling people that you don’t have to give money. You go down to
the villages, shake their hands, talk about their family problem and try to resolve that. I
think that will make you very popular. I don’t have to give money. I didn’t have money and I
couldn’t give money to them.
What I can do is identify myself with them. I go down to the villages, I talk to people, I ask
about their problems, I try to resolve their problems. For example, they were poor, and they
couldn’t send their children for higher education, we created more scholarships for them
and things like that. This is what wins you popularity.
I told Najib many times don’t give money, don’t believe in bribing people. You just go down
to the village and talk to the people. His answer was that “cash is king.” He believes in
bribery and bribing, and to bribe he has to steal money because he also gives big bribes to
ensure that they support him.
AT: Nothing epitomizes UMNO’s money-driven, patronage politics more than the 1MDB
scandal. Why in your opinion did the US government recently repatriate $300 million in
seized funds to the same political party, UMNO, reputedly responsible for their initial theft?
Mahathir: [The US government] shouldn’t have repatriated the funds, because you’re giving
the stolen money back to the thief. It’s absurd. I think they have stopped now. They will
have to be a little more circumspect in this matter. Yes, you want to return the money, but
not to the thief. You have to return the money to the people who take action against the
thief.
AT: Do you think Goldman Sachs should be held accountable for its role in the 1MDB
scandal?
Mahathir: Quite definitely, because they raised the funds and charged a very high interest
rate, 6%. Normally governments are entitled to 3% or even less, and then they got a
commission of 10%. Its absurd.
That kind of thing has never been done, but they seem to see a chance to take a lot of
money from Malaysia because this government is corrupt. So we feel that to some extent,
Goldman Sachs is responsible. But, of course they are not going to pay us back the money
that they caused us to lose.
AT: There is rising pressure on smaller countries to take sides in an emerging new Cold War
between the US and China. How should Malaysia position itself as this rivalry intensifies?
Mahathir: Well, both China and the US are good trading partners, big markets for us. We
want to sustain that. Unfortunately, the US wants to have a trade war with China, and China
of course has to focus on how to overcome the pressures applied by the US.
In doing that, they have to focus more on countering US rather than on building more trade
with Malaysia. But nevertheless we gain sometimes when American companies operating in
China find that they are not very welcomed there, or they find that their governments do
not approve of their investments in China, they want to go out, and we feel that Malaysia is
a good place for them to come to.
They can manufacture in Malaysia and export to America. But of course China is suffering a
bit. It’s not growing at the rate it used to grow. So the capacity to buy our products is much
reduced. Of course now with this Covid-19, things have gotten worse.
AT: You made big headlines in 2018 when you spoke of China’s “new colonialism.” Do you
still see it that way and should Southeast Asian countries be worried by China’s rise and
America’s coincident decline?
Mahathir: Well, I have a reputation of saying things which are not very welcomed by many
people. [Laughs] Besides America, I have criticized Russia, I have criticized China. But on the
other hand, we tell China, look, this is not right. You shouldn’t claim that you own the whole
of the South China Sea, simply because it is called the South China Sea. On that basis, the
Indian Ocean would belong to India and things like that.
But of course they are a big power, and there is only a certain amount of pressure we can
apply to them. But we need to have good relations with China because it is a huge market
for us, and we want to continue our trade with China. So, we have to be a bit diplomatic.
You have to say the truth, and on the other hand you have to reduce the fact by being more
diplomatic.
AT: You were, somewhat, elected on a ticket of pushing back against Chinese influence in
Malaysia. Do you feel like you sufficiently pushed back and reset your terms of negotiation
with China?
Mahathir: We have no problem with China’s Chinese, but we have a problem with
Malaysian Chinese. [Laughs] They have very dynamic people, they have become extremely
rich in Malaysia and they own practically all the towns in Malaysia. This is not healthy.
You know, even if there is a single race, the disparities between rich and poor have led to
revolutions, to violence and all that. We find that in Malaysia, the disparity between town
and country is amplified by the disparity between the Chinese in the towns and the Malays
in the rural areas. We need to correct that.
I think many Chinese accept that, but, of course, some who lost out on a certain project that
they want may not feel happy about that. But I would like to point out to everybody that as
a multi-racial country, Malaysia is much more stable, much more peaceful than many other
multi-racial countries. Even by comparison with the United States [and its] problem with the
blacks.
AT: What are your thoughts on US President Donald Trump’s policies towards Southeast
Asia and do you see the region as poised to benefit from US decoupling from China?
Mahathir: We get the feeling that he doesn’t know much about Southeast Asia. [Laughs] In
fact, he doesn’t know much about East Asia.
I think he needs to learn more about Southeast Asia, because we are the only regional
grouping (the Association of Southeast Asian Nations, or ASEAN) that has survived all these
years. All the Caribbean groupings, South Asian groupings, they have not done well but
Southeast Asia, ASEAN, has managed to sustain itself and can sit down and talk and discuss
problems amongst ourselves.
People must understand we are ten different countries, we have the same objective. Maybe
we implement in different ways, but people must understand that this is a region that is
growing very fast and I think we should be helped along instead of, well, creating problems,
accusing us of this and that.
We are not perfect. The different countries may be a little bit more authoritarian here and
there, but we have to accept that we are new democracies. And you can see, when you
introduce democracy, you actually introduce instability. That is what happens in the Middle
East. So you have to be tolerant with us. Over time, we will become more liberal, more
democratic.
AT: How concerned are you that this US-China rivalry could derail that progress and actually
devolve an into armed conflict, including in the South China Sea, making Southeast Asia a
potential superpower proxy theater? How big a risk is this?
Mahathir: I hope it doesn’t lead to armed conflict because it’s not productive. War is nonproductive. Both sides will be destroyed if they go to war, and there will be collateral
damage – that will be us. We’ll be the collateral damage if they go to war. So we don’t want
any violence.
That is why our policy is that there should no warships stationed in the South China Sea. You
can come, you can pass through. But please, don’t station warships because that is an
aggressive act. And that will cause a response from the other side, and some incidents may
happen, and before you know it we are at each other’s throat.
That is not civilised. To me, killing people to solve problems is very primitive. When you are
savages, maybe. But now even savages don’t do that. These so-called very highly civilized
countries resort to war. I would say that they are very primitive people.
AT: Do you find China’s moves in the South China Sea to be “primitive”, because many say
they seem to be tilting the region towards conflict?
Mahathir: Well, that is a policy which they adopt because all countries want to enlarge their
territories. Of course, China being powerful, they see America bringing warships there and
controlling the South China Sea, they want to claim it for themselves also.
Although we don’t agree with them, the fact is that before there were Chinese warships
there, there were American warships, the Seventh Fleet was stationed in that area. That
invites other people to do likewise. It is a Chinese response to the American policy of
dominating this part of the world.
AT: When you were prime minister in the 1990s, you had a vision of closer East Asian
cooperation which didn’t catch on likely because of the Western resistance you alluded to.
Given the state of the world now, do you not think that regional cohesion is needed now
more than ever?
Mahathir: We wanted the Northeast Asian countries and the Southeast Asian countries to
come together in certain areas, for example with regard to the currency. We are dependent
on American currency, but we should have our own currency that would facilitate our trade.
But we should grow together.
Northeast Asia is of course very advanced and I think we can benefit by their investments
here, their transfers of technology to Southeast Asia, and together we can grow.
But when we suggested that, America took exception and advised Japan and Korea not to
have anything to do with our proposal, even to the point of saying that these people wear
sarongs, as if wearing sarongs means we are not civilized. [Laughs] I mean, those kind of
remarks are not welcomed. We are independent countries. We want to do things for our
own good. But why is America stopping this, stopping that?
AT: Would this vision for regional cohesion you make be made more complicated if Donald
Trump is re-elected in November?
Mahathir: It will be, it will be. You don’t know what Mr Trump will do or say. His analysis of
things is not always correct. For example, he didn’t regard this coronavirus as something
serious initially.
He thought it was just a flu, but you know what is happening in America today, with more
than 100,000 dead and more than 1.7 million people having contracted the disease. So now
he’s trying to campaign as if he has done nothing wrong. I do hope the Americans will see
through all his bluster.
AT: Do you think presumptive Democratic nominee Joe Biden would be a better leader in so
far as Asia and Southeast Asia are concerned?
Mahathir: By comparison. I don’t know what Joe Biden is like. But I don’t think he would be
like Trump. Trump is unusual for an American president. He doesn’t reflect the American
character.
AT: How do you think the pandemic will change or reshape the region’s political and
economic order? Should China be held accountable for the pandemic as the disease’s initial
epicenter?
Mahathir: Well we can blame this country or that country for what happened. The thing is
that this is bound to happen because today people can travel very fast and cross whole
countries. And if you are infected, the next day or even three hours later you would be in
another country with your infection.
What happened is that this had become a pandemic starting perhaps in China. But because
people were traveling along, they carried the virus all over the world. Having brought it to
Europe, it goes to America and goes everywhere. That is one of the things we have to face
because of the ease of travel, the speed of travel in this borderless world. When you do
that, you have to regard the whole world as one entity. We cannot divide ourselves into
different countries because a disease in America can spread to Malaysia within 12 hours.
That is the reality of things, and now we have to deal with the possibility of pandemics
because of the ease of travel. We have to learn how to deal with this new threat to the
world. You know, America and China and Russia spend trillions of dollars developing
weapons to kill people. And they suddenly find that this little enemy that you cannot see is
attacking them. They should focus on how to deal with this virus, these germs, and things
like that so that this world will be a healthier place. Forget about fighting. Fighting is a waste
of time, so much money is being spent on weapons.
AT: At one point in March, Malaysia had the then largest Covid-19 infection cluster in
Southeast Asia, the Sri Petaling mosque gathering. How would you say the country has since
managed its Covid-19 response?
Mahathir: We have done rather well by comparison with other countries. At one time daily
new cases were above 200. Now it is down to single figures, the other day it was only three
(3).
This is the result of discipline, that we do things we are asked to do. Malaysian people do
obey government policies. When they are asked to stay at home, they stay at home. When
they are asked not to mix, they don’t. They obey all these orders by the government.
And as a result, we were able to control the speed and the width of the infection. Now there
are less and less people contracting. We try and identify all the cases as much as possible,
we have enough hospital facilities, including all the other equipment. We can identify places
which have clusters, all these things are managed very well because in Malaysia, this job is
given to the professionals, the doctors.
AT: Shortly after your victory in 2018 that toppled the BN government, you remarked that
potentially Singaporeans may also wish to unseat their own long-ruling government, the
People’s Action Party. Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong’s brother has recently joined the
opposition. Do you have any views on the city-state’s upcoming (July 10) electoral contest?
Mahathir: Well, that is an internal problem. I think they have had one party for a much
longer time than we have. People are a bit tired, maybe they want to see a change. They are
entitled to change their government. But even if they change their government, the
relationship with Malaysia may not change.
Because, for example, we have this ridiculous agreement with them made in 1926 to sell
1,000 gallons of water at three Malaysian sens. Before, when we had that agreement three
sens could buy something. Today, three sens is nothing. You can’t buy a single thing with it.
So we asked them, please let’s revise.
They are actually making thousands of dollars every day buying Malaysian water at three
sens per thousand gallons and selling for 17 Singapore dollars for that same amount of
water, after treatment, of course. We feel that you are a rich country, you are making
money out of a poor country.
You are buying water a rate that is lower than what we sell between the two states, for
example Johor would sell water to the state of Melaka for 50 sens per thousand gallons.
And yet we are selling for three sens to Singapore.
If Singapore is a poor country or maybe they need our help… but it’s not a poor country. We
want to negotiate a new price. We buy water from them, and if they want to raise the price
of treated water they sell to us, we will negotiate that price also.
AT: Do you think you Malaysia would get a better deal if the PAP were voted out and the
Progress Singapore Party, Prime Minister Lee’s brother’s party, were voted in?
Mahathir: Well, lah, we hope there is a change. [Laughs] But knowing Singapore, they are
not very cooperative. They don’t want to change anything. Everything is to their advantage,
so they want to keep it that way. I do hope the brother, who has differences with his elder
brother, would have a different attitude towards Malaysia.
AT: You’re going to be 95-years-old next month. Would you ever consider retirement?
Mahathir: [Laughs] I must consider retirement. I don’t want to be working until the last day,
obviously. But the thing is that… I have to respond to people’s requests. I would be very
selfish, thinking only about my well-being, my wanting to enjoy the last few years of my life.
But people come to see me and ask me please, please Tun.
I told them to go find somebody else. But unfortunately, they find that the Malays in
particular regard me highly in terms of political management. They think I can contribute
much toward the development of Malaysia, and as long as I’m able to walk about and talk, I
should be doing service to them. ■