JUNE 1, 1977
c copyright 1977 CARBINE CLUB
NEWSLETTER # 8
QUALITY H.M.C. CARBINES
Serial numbers assigned:
/A/iTy
1,990,000 1,962,920 1,875,OhO -
1,962,919 (12,920)
1,662,919 (100,000)
1,907,519 (32,i}80)
1,907,920 - 1,937,919
U, *432,100 - i*,932,099
U,632,100 - 14,679,525
(30,000).- .
(100,000) >;
(2b7,h26) y
From a total of 522,li26 numbers assigned, QHMC delivered 359,666 carbines to the
government. It is obvious that all serial numbers were not used. Can we determine
the unused numbers?
1
T
The block of 100,000 starting with Li,1»32,100 is the one used for receivers made
by Union Switch and Signal, and marked UN-QUALITY to identify the maker. Our pre­
sent data indicates that approximately 35,000 receivers marked UN-QUALITY were
made, and that the last 65,000 serial numbers in this block of 100,000 might not
have been used.
.
?
".'T
The highest serial number reported in QHMC's last block of numbers is near U,853,000.
Until we hear of a higher serial number, we will suspect that the last 26,000 numbers in this block might not have been used. The other large gap seems to be between 14,710,000 and 14,750,000. Sc far, we have not heard of any guns in this gap
'
of 140,000. ''
/^
A
.
5
RECEIVERS: The receivers marked UN-QUALITY seem to all have the integral spring
housing, while the receivers marked QHMC seem to all have the detachable housing
(tube) like the one used on second model WINCHESTER receivers (See Newsletter # 1 . )
BARRELS: QUALITY H.M.C. did not make barrels, but apparently used whatever was
available in a hodge-podge pattern. From #1,550,000 up to #1,620,000 it appears
that Q.H.M.C. used R0CK-0IA barrels dated from 12-1(2 to 6 —Ii3• However a few INLAND
barrels arc scattered among the ROCK-OLAs. From 1,620,000 to 1,660,000 there seems
to be a general mixture of UNDERWOOD, BUFFALO ARMS and unlatea ROCK-OLA barrels.
From 1,680,000 to 1,93b,000 the most commonly found barrels are BUFFALO ARMS dated
8 - or 9-19b3, along with a scattering of undated ROCK-01A, INLAND 9-b3 and 10-U3,
and WINCHESTER. From I4,633,000 to *4,697,000 there is a general mixture of BUFFALO
ARMS 10-19b3, UNDERWOOD 10-143 and 11-U3, undated ROCK-OLA and WINCHESTER. Above
14,750,000 there is a predominance of UNDERWOOD barrels dated 1—UU and 2-bLi, with
several INLAND I-I4I4 and WINCHESTER undated. UN-QUALITY receivers found in de-mils
have WINCHESTER and UNDERWOOD barrels. We knot* of other barrel makes in UN-Q guns .
owned by collectors, but we do not know that these ,are the original barrels.
BOLTS: All bolts found in QUALITY H.M.C. de-mils up to #b,778,000 were flat, with
the majority being marked EMQ. #14,697,802 had a UN-Q flat bolt. All bolts from
#14,813,000 up were round. The only bolt found in an UN-QUALITY de-mil receiver
was round. It was welded in place by the torch cut and could not be removed to
see the marking. Loose flat bolts have been seen in the de-mil scrap with the
letters UN well stamped, followed by a faintly stamped Q. It appears that an at-
0
%
f
tempt was made to add on the Q after the bolt was hardened. The Q .is very faint
and not in pood alignment with the sharp UN lettering. One might think this was
an attempt to fake a UN-Q marking, but we do not believe the men with the cutting ■
torches ever looked at what they were cutting. (They might have been blinded by
the tears in their eyes?) It is worth noting 1hat the bolts made by Union Switch
and Signal for National Postal Peter were marked UN. If some of these bolts were
sent to QUALITY
it might explain the added-on Q. Does anyone have any in­
formation concerning this?
SLIDES: # 1^898,627 had a DA-Q slide with a round cut on the rear edge of the box.
778,200 had a DA-Q slide with a flat cut. We cannot tell when the change was
made to the flat cut. Some slides made by Union Switch and Signal for Quality H.M.C
were marked UN-Q. We do not know that these slides were used on any or all UNQUALITY guns.
fih ;
REAR SIGHTS: No de-mils were found with adjustable sights. The leaf type, marked
GE-Q on the right side of the base, was found on the great majority of guns. A
few sights marked BQ were found between 1,850,000 and 3,900.000. In this same
range Lyman sights (marked S on the left side only) tvere found. Many, but net
all of the GE-Q sights had the pin staked by an X-pattern X - S o far we have not
seen the X-pattern on any except QUALITY H.M.C. and UN-QUALITY guns.
FRONT SIGHTS: Milled sights marked JQ were found up to #1,920,000. From here up
to h ,765,000 there was a mixture of milled N, unmarked grooved (see fig #2 on data
sheet), unmarked milled flat top (see fig #3 on data sheet) and unmarked flat top
stam.ped/brazed. Above b,77^,000 things seem to settle down to POQ marking, with a
few JQ also seen.
PARREL BANDS: All bands found on de-mils were;of the first type. The bands were
either marked UI or unmarked. Swivels were marked QU on the earlier guns. Between
a,778,000 and U,810,000 most swivels were unmarked. The Q-TK marking was found on
swivels in the b ,Bill,OCQ-l:,8l8,000 range. Swivels and bands found on UN-QUALITY
guns were unmarked.
Other: We have no clues as to when QUALITY H.M.C. changed from the milled trigger
housing to the stamped/brazed housing, or as to when other changes in configuration
were made.
UN-QUALITY — What a .name for making a soldier trust his gun! We see UN-Qs adver­
tised at prices up to ShOO. It seems that collectors will pay this price because
UN-Qs seem so rare. But with about one of every 10 Q guns being UN-Q, why are they
so hard to find? For some time K.J. Saunders and I have been tossing this question
around. We believe many UN-Qs are in the hands of people who own one carbine, and
that these guns have the UN-QUALITY name concealed by adjustable rear sights which
were installed during arsenal rebuilding or field modification. W i t h many UN-Q
carbines having UNDERWOOD barrels, and the letters UN being visible under the edge
of the rear sight, the owner could assume the carbines to be UNDERWOOD. Our belief
was found to be correct in one recent case. A knowledgeable collector bought an
"UNDERWOOD" from a man who carried it into a gun show. When you see an "UNDERWOOD"
having a serial number starting with lib, look it ever for welding or serial number
alteration, and don't tremble as you reach for your wallet. UN-Qs do exist - the
problem is to dig them out from UNDERWOOD owners. As usual we need more data to
fill in the gaps for QUALITY H.M.C., and hope you will help.
J.B. Powers
Bayonet - Knife, M4 & Scabbard, M8//A8AI
The f o llo w in g 1 * * l l a t o f M*» c a r b in e b a y o n e ts In t h e a u t h o r *3 c o l l e c t i o n . I T r e a d e r * w i l l be k in d enough t o f i l l o u t
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In O ctobor 1 9 *0 Army S o r v i c s F o rc a s h e a d q u a r te r s d i r e c t e d t h a t * p r o je c t bo I n i t i a t e d t o d e v e lo p . b a y o n e t f o r u s e
w ith th e c a r b i n e . S p ik e and b la d e bayon ota (T 9 . T 5 .*n d T 6 ) t h a t a t t a c h e d t o th e b a r r e l , u s in g a clum p s i m i l a r t o t h e X8
gren ad e la u n c h e r wore t e s t e d and d is c a r d e d . An a d a p t a t io n o f t h e M3 tr e n c h k n i f e , t h e (C arbin e E a y c n e t T8E 1, was t e s t e d in
c o n ju n c tio n w ith th o F ro n t Sand Bayonet Lug A ssem bly T2. The c o m b in a tio n was s t a n d a r d i s e d in Hay !l9bb a s th e B e y o n e t- K n lfo
Kb and Band, U pper, A ssem bly , Drawing S o . C 7160953.
Over 3 m i l l i o n Mb b a y o n e ts were su im ife ctu red d u r in g W orld War I I b y e i g h t com panim e - Am erican C u t le r y Co. ( A .C . C . ) .
A e r i a l C u t le r y C o .. Ca m illu a C u t le r y . W.R. C a se and Sons C u t l e r y C o .. I m p e r ia l C u tle r y - (C o .. I l n r o l k a I n c . ( K . I . ) . P el
B la d e end T o o l Co. end U tic a C u tle r y Co. The o r i g i n a l b a y o n e ts had hand g r i p s made fr o m l e a t h e r w a sh e rs b u t in h o t humid
c lim a t e s th e end w ash ers r o t t e d and r u s t e d th e c r o s s p i e c e end h i l t . Tho end w a sh ers v e sre e v e n t u a lly r e p la a e d w ith p l a s t i c
r e s i n s p a c e r s . Some r o t t e d l e a t h e r g r i p s w ere r e p la c e d w ith r o u g h ly ch e c k e re d wood g r lq p s, A s m a ll number o f b a y o n e t s w ere
rew orked w ith a m olded o n e - p ie c e b la c k ru b b e r g r i p h a v in g th o eema sh a p e a s th e le a t h e t r g r i p . Fina l l y , in 1956 th o f i n e l y
Checkered tw o -p ie c e b la c k p l a s t i c t r i p was a d o p te d a lo n g w ith a c r o o s p le c e o f s l i g h t l y - a l t e r e d sh a p e ( t y p e s 2 . 3 and b ) .
T h is l a t e m odel b a y o n e t was m an ufactured by Bren-D an . C o n o tta . I m p e r i a l , and th e T u rn etr M a n u fa c tu rin g C o. S o r v l c o a b la
..p re -1996 bayo n o ta woro a r s e n a l reworked to a c c e p t th e p l a s t i c g r i p s by w o ld ln g t h e c r m e s p le c e t o th o b la d e end d r i l l i n g
two h o le s th ro u g h th e b la d e h an d le f o r th e g r i p b o l t s , . Reworked b a y o n o ta can be r e c o g n d t e d by th e ty p e 1 c r o s s p i e c e .
P ro-1956 i s s u e b a y o n e ts a r e u s u a lly marked w ith th e fla m in g o rd n a n ce homb on e lth w rr th e fro n t, o r r e a r o f t h a c r o s s ­
p ie c e a s w e ll a s an £ ( a c c e p ta n c e m ark?) on th e h i l t . L a t e m odel b a y o n e ts w ith p l a s t i c ; ig r lp s a r e marked w ith t h e OoD
in s p e c t i o n a p p r o v a l atamD ( e a g le in a s q u a r e ) on th e r e a r o f th o c r o s s p i e c e .
The Mb b a y o n e t le c a r r i e d in th a M6/M8A1 ic .h l .a r d . The M0 s c a b b a r d waa o r i g i n a l l y s t a r r l a r d l l e d in J u l y 19b3 t o r e p l a c e
th e M.6 l e a t h e r sc a b b a rd i s s u e d v l t h tho m3 tr e n c h k n i f e . R ough ly 3 0 0 ,0 0 0 K8 s c a b b a r d s w e r e p rodu ct!.!. When th e Mb b a y o n e t
was s t a n d a r d i s e d , th e Mfl sc a b b a rd was m o d ifie d by a d d in g « m e t a l b e l t h a n g e r and r e d e e . i g n . t e d th e M fUl. Many M8 marked
s c a b b a r d s v e r s d e p o t re v o rk a d to t h s M^Al c o n f i g u r a t i o n .
6
EXQRD K *r 77
V
li
FIELD MANUAL 23-7,' ITS MYSTERIES AND EVOLUTION
The Field Manual (FM) covering the carbine has evolved from an early WWII tech­
nical bulletin. It is limited to areas such as safety, disassembly, assembly,
cleaning, marksmanship and short references to the accessories. I say limited
because the FM is directed at the soldier's shooting, training and maintenance
of the carbine. Upper echelon repair and technical information are not covered
by the FM; therefore, it is not too desirable'fOr reference.purposes^
The FM is also known to be inaccurate but, perhaps, with good reason. Both the
191:2 version, which covers the Ml (page 28) and the 19W: version, which covers
the Ml and MIA! (page 99), refer to the cleaning rod case as having sections to
carry the "four sections of the cleaning rod." This reference was deleted from :
the 1992 issue because the M8 jointed rod has only two sections. Could there
have been an earlier rod, with different specifications and, by final print,
the revisions overlooked twice? Has anyone seen the ruptured cartridge extrac­
tor referred to in the 19U2 issue (page 28) but deleted from the 19hC issue?
Does this indicate these items were under early development and printed about,
anticipating ordnance department approval? Anybody who can. help me here please do.
The 1992 issue has four variations. The front cover of the first variation was
marked "RESTRICTED-SECURITY INFORMATION." The back cover had a boxed paragraph
warning about divulging the information to foreign countries. The first and last
few pages also were marked with the restriction notice. Why would the government
put such a classification on a field manual? The side binding of the cover is
marked "FM 23-7, CARBINE, CALIBER .30" and does not specify the four models
covered in the manual. Why?
During the same year the restriction was dropped! The title was changed to i n ­
clude "AFM 90-U," as it was then made an authorized publication of the Depart­
ment of the Air Force. The side binding of this version is marked: "FM 23-7
AFM 90-ii CARBINE, CALIBER .30, Ml, M1A1, M2, and M3." This second variation,
and all variations to follow had contents identical to the first variation
except for the restriction.
The second variation was reprinted by the Government Printing Office (GPO) in
1999, giving us the third variation. The 1999 printing is easily distinguished
from the original 1992 printing by its poorer quality pictures and thicker
size. The GPO reprinted variation three in 1979, giving us the fourth variation.
The quality here is awful! Comparison of pictures showing the carbine trigger
group being disassembled in a soldier's hand, is absolutely incredible. Each
later variation show's less detail in the parts and the hand. It is the old
story of taking a picture of a picture of a picture. The 1979 reprint is even
thicker than variation three (1999)!
How does a collector know which one he has? Very simple. Look at the lower right
of the last page. It will read: U.3. Government Printing Office: (date of print)
Bill Ricca
JAN 92
ORIG
VARIATION 1 & 2
T
9/16
-L
JAN 92 .
1999
reorint
VARIATION 3
T
13/16
JAN92
1979
reprint
T
19/16
_L
DATE
DESIGNATION
War Dept. Basic Field Manual 23-7
20 May 42
COVERAGE
PAGES %MISC
Ml
140
\
XA
1st print in FM form
chg 1, 3 Jul 42
chg 2, 11 Aug 42
chg 3 , 6 Nov 42
chg 4, 28 Jan 43
chg 5> 22 Apr 43
side binding mkd Carb. Cal
-30, Ml
War Dept. Basic Field Manual 23-7
23 Apr 44
M1,A1
209
chg 1, thru 3 not issued?
chg 4, 19 Aug 46
chg 5,11 Jan 49
chg 6, 4 Aug 50
chg 7, 29 Mar 51side binding unmkd
Dept. Army Field Manual 23-7
Jan 52
M l ,A 1 ,2 ,3
382
1st Jan 52 print, mkd "RESTRICTED
SECURITY INFORMATION" front cover
box paragraph warning back cover
side binding mkd Carb. Cal .30 only
chg 1, 19 Oct 53
chg 2, 28 Jun 57
Dept. Army Field Manual 23-7
Air Force Manual 50-4
>
Jan 52
.All above
382
Restriction deleted, 1st AFM
side binding marked all models
same changes as above
Dept« Army Field Manual 23-7
Air Force Manual 50-4 .
Jan 52
All above
382
1959 reprint by GPO
Quality bad, thicker than orig prints
same changes as above
Dept. Army Field Manual 23-7
Air Force Manual 50-4
Jan 52
All above - 382
1975 reprint by GPO
Quality poor, thicker than 1959 print
same changes as above
back cover mkd for mailing
The changes for the later variations have been reprinted, but as of now
I do not have sufficient information on dates to require a separate listing.
Bill Ricca
6
NOTES ON AMMUNITION (PART II)
GRADES: Although small arms ammunition is produced on a mass production basis
with rigid quality control, small variations in material or manufacturing processes
will result in minute variations between lots of ammunition even though they may
come from the same production line. In order to assure top grade quality, hundreds
of rounds are continually being taken from a production line for test firing. Based
on test results the ammunition is assigned a grade classification to designate its
use. With carbine ammunition there were just two grades: "R" which meams good ser­
viceable ammunition for use in all carbines of good repair; and "3" which means
ammunition which is neither to be used or issued.
LOT NUMBERS & INITIALS: Each "group" of ammunition made from identical materials
and components is separated from other "groups" and is assigned a serial number
to distinguish it from other "groups." These "groups" and numbers are referred to
as Lots and Lot Numbers. Each manufacturer had lot number blocks assigned to it in
much the same way that serial number blocks were assigned to manufactvtrers. The
same lot numbers could be assigned to a different type of ammunition of.the same
caliber or to ammunition of a different caliber.
i
EXAMPLE:
Carbine, ball, Ml
- Lot #123h
Carbine, tracer, MI6 - Lot #123h
.50 ball, M2
- Lot #1231:
Due to storage, age, different use requirements or Theater of Operation, ammunition
was sometimes sent to various depots to be repacked. Certain assigned lot numbers
were used in repacking, as well as those of original manufacture. These repacking
lot numbers are usually" found stamped on the outside of the container or on a
slip of paper inside the bandoleer. Usually the name of the depot is also identified.
In order to distinguish between brass and steel case ammunition the letter S -was
placed between the manufacturers code and lot number.
EXAMPLE:
FA-S-U1162
Steel case carbine ammunition was restricted to function fire testing when first
introduced but later was released for training use also.
The following is a list of manufacturers, ammunition type and blocks of assigned
lot numbers as used during WWII and Korea (we need information from members here
to bring our lot numbers up to date, ie, through the '60s air£ '70s.)
MANUFACTURER
Evansville-Chrysler (EC)
Frankford Arsenal (FA)
Lake City Arsenal (LC)
BALL •
TRACER, £16 (red)
TRACER, M27 (orange)
2U300-25818
1-57
35000-39001
12000-13978
Kings Mill (PC)
(Peters Cartridge Co.)
26000-26502
Remington Arms Co. (RA)
5COO-5US6
Western Cartridge Co. (WCC)
6000-6928
Winchester Repeating Arms Co.(WRA) 22000-22866
120CO-H20hl
1 - 29+
12000-1 2U 32
5000-5138
Bob Gibson
• WANT ADS
Reproduction print of first WINCHESTER Ml Carbine showing cut-away details: 2U"x36".
Bob Jones, P.0. Box 525> Alpharetta, GA 3Q201. $7.00 each jmstpaid.
INLAND overstamped M2, complete & registered. Bill Thompson,, 1006 Boulevard St.,
Sa}em, VA 2hl53