Ext Sync fluctuation
Posted by derekten - 2008/07/16 05:47
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Hi
I've tried to sync up my Machine drum with Ableton and Protools but the tempo seems to fluctuate. If I'm working at
102bpm and hit the tempo button on the MD it fluctuates between 101.9 to 102.2. I'm assuming that the MD should lock
into the tempo and not move up and down.
I've tried using the TM-1 and various other interfaces but the same thing happens - any help much appreciated.
Cheers
Del
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Re:Ext Sync fluctuation
Posted by Toni - 2008/07/16 06:37
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It's normal and doesn't mean that MD tempo is fluctuating. Because of midi-clock, tempo is calculated differently. Do a
search on the forum and find out.
Btw, while many people are syncing to midi-clock, MD can also be synced to midi-start/stop messages. This way you can
be sure about solid tempo (if that worries ones).
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Re:Ext Sync fluctuation
Posted by derekten - 2008/07/16 07:22
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hi Toni
Thanks for your response... I did try a search before I posted - obviously I didn't use the right search terms - I'll have
another look.
Out of interest how do I sync it to midi stop start messages? I assume I just have the MD set to external - but what
would I use in the DAW - say Live for example?
thanks
del
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Re:Ext Sync fluctuation
Posted by monofever - 2008/07/16 07:28
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You can sync to start stop messages in the global options SYNC->CTRL IN set that to ON.
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Re:Ext Sync fluctuation
Posted by Toni - 2008/07/16 07:34
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I'm not using Live so I cannot say how it works, but in Cubase you can choose to send Midi Start/stop commands and no
midi clock. Then you just configure MD to listen the start/stop commands and ignore possible midi-clock. This is done
from the Global menu (be sure to check manual also).
If you working with the patterns in MD rather than song mode, you could also try to set up MD so that it will play different
patterns from different midi-notes (for example C3 will play pattern A01, C#3 will play A02 and so on). This way you can
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easily build MD arrange from Live. If interested check the manual (I cannot help here, because I'm away from my MD).
MD offers quite many different ways to make it work with external sequencer (clever implementation from Elektron). I've
seen people having problems with syncing to Midi-clock. Problems seem to arise from different computer platforms. I
would suggest to set MD listen the start/stop messages or midi-notes (midi-notes probably being best option). Hope this
helps.
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Re:Ext Sync fluctuation
Posted by derekten - 2008/07/16 07:47
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Wow - that's really useful - thanks guys.... I'll check out the manual more thoroughly and try a few of the other options
you mention.
Thanks !
Del
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Re:Ext Sync fluctuation
Posted by yourmama - 2008/07/18 02:30
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i have Live synced to my Elektrons, dunno why but i feel the timing is way better when the MD is the Master
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Re:Ext Sync fluctuation
Posted by derekten - 2008/07/18 02:41
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wow - that's interesting... I'll give that a go. Nice one.
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Re:Ext Sync fluctuation
Posted by derekten - 2008/09/17 11:58
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HI there
I know I started this thread a while ago but I have a few further questions...
I've been using the MD as described above with pro tools + live... everything seems to work fine. But today we tried
running a load of synths from the machine drum in tandem with a vocal and some live instruments in protools.
I started off by triggering patterns with midi note on messages from Ptools and we noticed that the timing was a little
rough were the patterns retriggered. We put this down to MIDI timing in general.... I wasn't able to use the TM-1 with
HD. So, I thought the best way to solve this was just to trigger the whole song with a note on message (don't want to
loose the MD groove by clocking it). Then we noticed that the tempo of the machine drum drifts compared to the grid on
protools - it seems to get later as protools progresses. This isn't a huge amount but certainly audible.
I understand that this may come off as a little anal but I'm wondering if this is normal behaviour or if it should stay bang
on when running at the same bpm.
Any obsevations or help would be great....
Cheers !
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Re:Ext Sync fluctuation
Posted by LIVESEQ - 2008/11/19 01:53
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I use Pro tools le with a 002 and intel macbook and experience the exact same clock mismatch.
The MD is rock solid as master and doesn't seem to like the tempo fluctuations pro tools generates. If the tempo on the
MD keeps wandering it just isn't going to sound right. Especially when a pattern uses retrigs or delays.
It pissed me off that pro tools cannot be slaved.
Any ideas from anyone would be great.
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Re:Ext Sync fluctuation
Posted by texmex - 2008/11/29 04:28
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I'm having trouble syncing MD as well, but not to a computer. I'm using MD -> MnM or MnM -> MD sync, and no matter
what the tempo is fluctuating a bit (130 -> 129.8 to 130.2). While this doesn't seem like much, it causes a lot of problems
in delays and retriggers (as already mentioned). 130 BPM -> 130.2 BPM
How does it work for you guys? Can you sync MD to MnM and have really stable MIDI clock? If I have really long dub
delays, I get distortion to it which is really annoying... does this happen to you?
TM-1 doesn't help at all as it's meant for computer to synth communication... :(
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Re:Ext Sync fluctuation
Posted by Mika Technika - 2008/11/29 05:33
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derekten wrote:
HI there
Then we noticed that the tempo of the machine drum drifts compared to the grid on protools - it seems to get later as
protools progresses. This isn't a huge amount but certainly audible.
I understand that this may come off as a little anal but I'm wondering if this is normal behaviour or if it should stay bang
on when running at the same bpm.
Any obsevations or help would be great....
Cheers !
i have the same problem in ableton live!
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Re:Ext Sync fluctuation
Posted by grain - 2008/11/29 22:47
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yourmama wrote:
i have Live synced to my Elektrons, dunno why but i feel the timing is way better when the MD is the Master
the MD is a rock solid master. Its a pity the likes of Pro Tools, Logic, and Cubase refuse to act as slaves to the MD's
superior clock.
The MD in my setup tells Live, another drum machine, and a Virus what to do, and it works a dream. I'm interested in
what someone here mentioned tho - sending pattern change messages to the MD from Live. I'm going to give that a go.
Nice thing is, I know that that will work (amazingly, I think), without changing any of the current MIDI set up. MD will still
send clock and MIDI notes, but will receive pattern change messages too... oh, and mute messages .. forgot about that
recent upgrade update!!
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Nice.
:)
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Re:Ext Sync fluctuation
Posted by grain - 2008/11/29 22:57
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texmex wrote:
I'm having trouble syncing MD as well, but not to a computer. I'm using MD -> MnM or MnM -> MD sync, and no matter
what the tempo is fluctuating a bit (130 -> 129.8 to 130.2). While this doesn't seem like much, it causes a lot of problems
in delays and retriggers (as already mentioned). 130 BPM -> 130.2 BPM (
It seems unusual, but I have only one MD, and no Mono :(
However, a mate of mine has another MD and we've jammed with them before, without using MIDI sync. Just manually
beat match them - once you have it locked, you'll find they stay in for loooong periods of time, only needing the very
occasional nudge to re-line the sync.
The MD's 'turntable emulation' is a dream come true for me. The way they have designed that, so that you simply push
the cursor buttons forward or back, and the longer you hold the button, the more the tempo ramps down/up, is pure
genius. Just like decks! If you have experience DJing, you'll pick it up in a second. If not, i'd say a little more practice may
be needed, but its certainly an indispencable skill, and worth knowing how to do..
Give that a go. you will be pleasantly surprised. And like all Elektron operations, before long you'll be doing it in your
sleep ;)
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Re:Ext Sync fluctuation
Posted by Tarekith - 2008/11/29 23:56
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The MD itself is extremely accurate in terms of tempo in my experience, either on it's own or sending clock to external
gear. I've used it to sync an EMX with no issues at all, ditto an ER-1 and Evolver. I've never really had much luck using
the MD as a clock master for software like Live though, which is contrary to some people who have no issues at all. It
works ok, but not any better than having Live as the master. That said, having Live as the master has definitely caused
me issues with sync too, something I've written about on these forums before. (Strangely, Logic as master works fine.)
Eventually it got to the point where the tempo was close enough for my purposes, so I just ignored the very, very slight
timing issues.
More than a few people on the Live forums have reported issues with Live's MIDI Clock, do a search there for a guy
named Timur/Crash and you find plenty of info on the problem, especially if you're on a Vista system. Anyway, Ableton
recenty found a bug with the midi clock when you're looping Live (like you'd use Session Mode), so you might want to
download the 7.0.12 update and see if that's better for you.
And you definitely want to just ignore the tempo display on the MD when it's slaved, it'll visually fluctuate, but it doesn;'t
mean the timing engine is fluctuating that much.
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Re:Ext Sync fluctuation
Posted by texmex - 2008/11/30 07:46
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Tarekith wrote:
And you definitely want to just ignore the tempo display on the MD when it's slaved, it'll visually fluctuate, but it doesn;'t
mean the timing engine is fluctuating that much.
That's not true. Whether it's MD master, MnM slave or vice versa, the clock of the slave fluctuates around +- 0.2 BPM.
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Slave keeps in sync though because everytime slave gets midi clock from master it can fix the timing of the beat.
However BPM changes, and that also affects delay time of the delay effect. On the slave machine put a long delay with
some feedback and you'll hear glitches in the delay.
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Re:Ext Sync fluctuation
Posted by papertiger - 2008/12/01 01:56
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grain wrote:
I'm interested in what someone here mentioned tho - sending pattern change messages to the MD from Live. I'm going
to give that a go. Nice thing is, I know that that will work (amazingly, I think), without changing any of the current MIDI set
up. MD will still send clock and MIDI notes, but will receive pattern change messages too... oh, and mute messages ..
forgot about that recent upgrade update!!
for whatever reason I had let the fact that you can trigger the md using midi notes from an external source slip by. I think
Tib mentioned it in another thread and I decided to try it this weekend -- it's AWESOME. The great part is that the MD will
still run on its own internal clock, and the pattern switching sounded lovely. I can still use the "sequencer" aspects of a
DAW to get a quick overview/see what I'm doing as opposed to song mode which gets tedious sometimes!
If you're using live you have an additional bit of awesomeness. In Session view, set up some clips which each trigger a
different pattern on the md, mm or both. Set each clips' follow action to random and you can have different patterns
triggering randomly as you play. You can retrigger as often as you like -- just send the note and the pattern will reset. The
only bad part is that you lose offsets, which I know a lot of people are fans of. It's great for creating a quick flow of music
for just sketching, without worrying about structure. You could also add RAM record and RAM play machines here and
there and things could get pretty crazy indeed. Or just sound like crap.
I wish I could do this in logic since it would make jamming really easy. . .
M
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Re:Ext Sync fluctuation
Posted by modularmind - 2008/12/02 22:10
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texmex wrote:
Tarekith wrote:
And you definitely want to just ignore the tempo display on the MD when it's slaved, it'll visually fluctuate, but it doesn;'t
mean the timing engine is fluctuating that much.
That's not true. Whether it's MD master, MnM slave or vice versa, the clock of the slave fluctuates around +- 0.2 BPM.
Slave keeps in sync though because everytime slave gets midi clock from master it can fix the timing of the beat.
However BPM changes, and that also affects delay time of the delay effect. On the slave machine put a long delay with
some feedback and you'll hear glitches in the delay.
I have my MD synced to my Mono and I'm having the same problem as you Texmex. To avoid the glitching/modulation of
the delays on the MD I'm currently not syncing the MD to the Mono's midi clock just to start/stop messages. Problem is, if
I let them play like that side by side with the same tempo setting you can hear they have drifted apart after a minute or
so. Does this mean the timing isn't so rock solid or is it a problem inherent in midi clock sync? Anyone know something
about this? Only solution I can see right now is to repeatedly trigger patterns on the MD from the Mono. But then I have
to use one track on the Mono for that + song mode on the MD gets pretty useless. :(
/Mm
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Re:Ext Sync fluctuation
Posted by Toni - 2008/12/02 22:34
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modularmind wrote:
I have my MD synced to my Mono and I'm having the same problem as you Texmex. To avoid the glitching/modulation of
the delays on the MD I'm currently not syncing the MD to the Mono's midi clock just to start/stop messages. Problem is, if
I let them play like that side by side with the same tempo setting you can hear they have drifted apart after a minute or
so. Does this mean the timing isn't so rock solid or is it a problem inherent in midi clock sync? Anyone know something
about this? Only solution I can see right now is to repeatedly trigger patterns on the MD from the Mono. But then I have
to use one track on the Mono for that + song mode on the MD gets pretty useless. :(
/Mm
Quick note here. Take one Md and one MnM pattern. Clear them both and place one trig on both of them. Start them
together and you should have clear and aligned sync for hours - they sync very well together.
BUT! I guess there is a bug in MnM, since once you add swing to MnM, it will drift from MD. You can test this with two
patterns. MnM use to have this bug, and I'm not sure does to current OS version have it, but it might have.
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Re:Ext Sync fluctuation
Posted by ipassenger - 2008/12/02 23:39
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Arghh!!! Sync!!!
It is the most annoying topic and problem I have ever encountered since i started making music on an Amiga 500 in the
early 90s. The problem just gets worse the more kit you have..
Anyway my findings for the brew:
1. MD as master to other hardware is fine and accurate and with every other piece of my kit it has been fine the other
way around. (Electribe ESX and Nord G2)
2. MD as master to Abe Live, not really workable.
3. MD as slave to Abe Live, appalling on some midi interfaces.. not so bad on others. For ages (nearly a full year) I
thought it was just ableton but now i realise that the interface matters... Currently using a Midex 3 and it seems pretty
stable.. limited testing with Midi sport looks ok too.. but others have been shocking. You will however get some
fluctuation on any of them.. the PC just isn't that tight, you need to be able to priorities midi data through the processor
unfortunately this isn't possible.
4. If your using your PC DAW to trigger patterns on your MD/MnM (with the machine using it's internal clock) it should be
ok if you keep triggering them each loop. But the tempo in your MD/MnM will never be the same as the PC as the PC
again just isn't that accurate and an absolute value of X number of BPMs is actually pretty difficult to measure, e.g. how
many decimal places is accurate enough?? I have clocked both my ESX and MD to the same tempo but each piece of
kit using it's own clock.. and sure enough they drift pretty quickly without using the MDs nudge.. I seem to remember the
MD was always slightly slower..
If there ever was a reason for going all software, sync would be it!
:D
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Re:Ext Sync fluctuation
Posted by xmit - 2008/12/02 23:49
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I have MnM as master - > MD -> other midi hardware....can honestly say I've never noticed anything other than rock-solid
sync between the two elektrons....???
Maybe it depends on your definition of rock-solid sync though...?:blink: I must admit I've heard people moaning about
the 'sloppiness' of old midi gear, yet to my mind one of the nicest sounding syncs I've ever had was my old Roland
sequencers - an MSQ700 syncing a SCI Drumtracks via midiclock & a CSQ100 & MC202 via DIN sync...it sounded
fantastic to me !
So maybe I'm not the best judge....:huh:
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Re:Ext Sync fluctuation
Posted by ipassenger - 2008/12/03 00:00
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Rock solid to me is when the machines tell you that the tempo is constant, the tempo clocked delays don't trip out and
you can use a very fast lfo through sample hold (clocked to say 16ths) to modulate the pitch of an osc with an lfo reset at
the start of the bar and always hear the same pattern.. Most of the time with Ableton Live as master i get something
which manages the clocked delay without to much jitter and a reasonably steady S&H pattern at much lower LFO
speeds. If i use only hardware sync i get all 3 without fail.
IMO: The midi clock output on the MD is as tight as it can be.
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Re:Ext Sync fluctuation
Posted by Mika Technika - 2008/12/03 00:00
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the only thing to do: record without midi sync, and than warp it in ableton.
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Re:Ext Sync fluctuation
Posted by ipassenger - 2008/12/03 00:07
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Mika Technika wrote:
the only thing to do: record without midi sync, and than warp it in ableton.
Yeah but that's not much good if your in the middle of a track and want to add some MD to it.
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Re:Ext Sync fluctuation
Posted by modularmind - 2008/12/03 00:10
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Toni wrote:
Quick note here. Take one Md and one MnM pattern. Clear them both and place one trig on both of them. Start them
together and you should have clear and aligned sync for hours - they sync very well together.
BUT! I guess there is a bug in MnM, since once you add swing to MnM, it will drift from MD. You can test this with two
patterns. MnM use to have this bug, and I'm not sure does to current OS version have it, but it might have.
Toni, do you mean to try this with the MD slaved to the Mono's clock? Then they will stay in "perfect" sync for sure. The
problem then is, as Texmex pointed out, that the midi clock timing (in BPM) received by the slave (MD in my case) will
fluctuate, you can see that on the MD's screen where it constantly shifts BPM with +/- 0.2 BPM (while the BPM shown on
the Mono's screen is not fluctuating). This is not a problem if you're not using the delays in the MD. But if you do use
them you will hear a bad sounding modulation effect on the delay (all though mod is set to 0 in the global delay settings).
The problem goes away if you let the MD sync to it's own clock. But then my experience is that the two machines drift
apart after a while.
Is it just me and Texmex having this problem?
/Mm
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