Tips on mixing with headphones?
Posted by GYS - 2009/04/23 23:33
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My toddler's bedroom is right below my studio so the days of monitors are pretty much done for me. I had the bright idea
a while back to buy some nice headphones to do my mixes...but so far it's not been too great.
I've got decent "open air" cans...both Sennheiser (can't remember model), and Grado SR 225s. They have a nice flat
freq response and from I understand they don't color the sound much at all. So, I figured they would be great
alternatives to getting a nice accurate mix. But, it's not the case.
Recently I had been working on a batch of new tracks that I was really pleased with. I had been producing with the
headphones the entire time. I took them to a buddy's house to share and when we listened on his system, they sounded
completely muddy. Bass was OK, but the mids were a mess and the highs were just barely there. The experience took
the wind out of my sails so much that I haven't returned to the tracks since! :angry:
I feel like my old mixes using computer speakers and/or DJ headphones sounded much better in the end...not great, but
better.
Soooo...assuming that I have to make headphones work, is there anything I can do? I was under the impression that
some people do in fact do their mixing and mastering only using headphones. I was thinking that perhaps a headphone
EQ would do the trick (if it even exists)...basically I'd be coloring the sound I hear to force me to compensate correctly.
For example, cranking the bass and lowering the highs a bit so in my mixing I have to attenuate the bass a bit and put a
little extra gain in the highs.
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Re:Tips on mixing with headphones?
Posted by dolfazoid - 2009/04/24 00:06
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i understand where you're at. for the last 12 months i have been on the move and recording and mixing in motels,
community halls, strangers sofas and spare rooms, from rural australia to NYC all done with headphones (beyerdynamic
DT250).
I don't really like the mixing stage anyway but, for this project (tra la la blip) i have to mix real quick and move on.
http://www.myspace.com/tralalablip
the project is electronic music made by people with intellectual and physical disabilities.
I have to work fast so i can burn a disk for the musicians on the same day or next.
i guess i'm saying this because it can be done. the songs i have done for this project have been played on national
radio stations in oz(triple J) , usa (wnyc), and uk (bbc).
i am not a mixing type of music maker, i like jamming out ideas and moving on to the next one.
When i read your post i thought "maybe you should listen to other peoples music in your headphones ? music that is
similar to your own style. use the phones for pleasure listening too.
then you can use that as a sonic reference.
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Re:Tips on mixing with headphones?
Posted by jsrockit - 2009/04/24 00:07
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Wish I could offer some help, but I've never been able to do it myself, so... are you A/B-ing with albums you like when
doing your mixes through headphones?
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Re:Tips on mixing with headphones?
Posted by zoot - 2009/04/24 00:10
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unfortunately nothing beats various sized flat monitors good amps and a neutral room.
compensating works to a point but the next tune you do will have different problem areas
so how do you know what to compensate for with that track?
you did answer the q yourself
cut the low mids pump the sparkle etc.
i have similar problem cept i've got crap headphones and even crapper monitors:laugh:
kids can sleep thru anything
but i bet their mother doesn't think so
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Re:Tips on mixing with headphones?
Posted by kirlian - 2009/04/24 00:46
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dolfazoid wrote:
When i read your post i thought "maybe you should listen to other peoples music in your headphones ? music that is
similar to your own style. use the phones for pleasure listening too.
then you can use that as a sonic reference.
+1 - and it's true, kids can and will sleep thru anything
@dolfazoid i like your project a lot. my niece has down syndrome and i have often wondered how i could involve her in
my musical life in a way that would be meaningful to her.
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Re:Tips on mixing with headphones?
Posted by howdragonsdisappear - 2009/04/24 00:57
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I don't really like headphones for dynamic ..
after some times, ears are tired, and the signal seems to be more compressed while listening with the headphones.
It won't answer yours quesiotns but there's a plugin who emulate a room listening with a headphones 112 db redline
monitor.
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Re:Tips on mixing with headphones?
Posted by dolfazoid - 2009/04/24 01:02
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thanks KIRLIAN,
Ableton live (making good use of the midi scale effect) a midi controller and a microphone.
that's about all ya need.
you behind Ableton making loops of your niece's playing and singing on the fly.
play back her loops for her during the jam. immediacy, instant feedback is important and soooo much fun.
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Re:Tips on mixing with headphones?
Posted by anselmi - 2009/04/24 01:14
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the only tip I can tell you is not to use them...sorry:(
I don´t know any musician/producer/engineer that cpould reccomend to mix with hp
I use them JUST to get an accurate stereo balance since hp has 100% stereo separation, but I did that in about 10
minutes and the continue to work with open air monitors...even at low level
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Re:Tips on mixing with headphones?
Posted by GYS - 2009/04/24 01:15
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Thanks for the advice, peeps. Good idea on doing a A/B comparison with something I'm trying to achieve.
Read a S.O.S. article as well that said good headphone mixes are certainly possible, but the key is getting really used to
how your headphones perform...building that intuition to know what parts you need to boost/trim.
As for the kids sleeping through anything...never quite know what will set my daughter off. She's a very finicky sleeper to
begin with. Maybe I need to experiment and see how loud I can go with real monitors! B)
And, cool project dolfazoid! I used to teach tennis to mentally/physically challenged kids...very rewarding experience.
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Re:Tips on mixing with headphones?
Posted by papertiger - 2009/04/24 10:28
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GYS wrote:
Read a S.O.S. article as well that said good headphone mixes are certainly possible, but the key is getting really used to
how your headphones perform...building that intuition to know what parts you need to boost/trim.
that's a great article and good advice. i think mixing with headphones is great -- in some ways preferable cause i can
hear details better -- as long as you know the headphones. you should listen to commercial releases on them that you
are familiar with to evaluate what the headphones accent/don't do well. like with studio monitors!
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Re:Tips on mixing with headphones?
Posted by grain - 2009/04/24 11:39
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GYS wrote:
My toddler's bedroom is right below my studio so the days of monitors are pretty much done for me. I had the bright idea
a while back to buy some nice headphones to do my mixes...but so far it's not been too great.
.
I was in the very same situation (still am really), so I went on a mission to find the most accurate, comfortable
headphones I could possibly get, cause my Sony MDR700, which are great for DJing, are terrible for wearing fully over
your head (as opposed to with one ear on, a-la DJ monitoring) for more than 50 mins...
I got a set of AKG K-701s, and was delighted with them. Light,nearly flat response, and being open-back, less
claustriphobic than closed back.. you get a bit more sense of space I think...
Anyway, the thing is, while it is widely recognised that you shouldn't 'mix' on headphones, it is entirely possible to make
music with your headphones, as the music making process is not exclusively about mixing.
I think - when you want to make sure your mix is right, use your speakers, and cross reference your mix with as many
playback options as possible.. proper monitors, decent headphones, shitty laptop speakers, hi-fi speakers, in-ear
earphones...
But for creating patterns, sequences, and when you are arranging recorded audio in your chosen DAW, is there anything
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wrong with working on headphones?
Not at all!
:P
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Re:Tips on mixing with headphones?
Posted by sensorium - 2009/04/24 16:05
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Sorry, creating a great mix on headphones is near impossible. While headphones are great for checking stereo spread
(due to the total separation of the stereo field), this quality also makes them terrible for mixing. You are eliminating the
phase relationships that occur at the listening position by having total separation. Without hearing how the frequencies
from the L and R interact, it is VERY hard to eliminate the muddiness. You can't correct what you can't hear.
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Re:Tips on mixing with headphones?
Posted by mvmono - 2009/04/24 16:33
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GYS wrote:
Read a S.O.S. article as well that said good headphone mixes are certainly possible, but the key is getting really used to
how your headphones perform...building that intuition to know what parts you need to boost/trim.
I was going to recommend SOS. There are articles in dec 03 and Jan 07. I do a lot of late night recording with
headphones but I try to A/B with monitors when I can. As far as mixing goes I'm still in the early days but luckily I have a
friend who is a great mixer to help me...when he has time. I've found my recording chain has improved things a lot: Great
River MP2NV>Fireface 400. Sounds gain a punchiness, clarity and weight when they go through the Great River which
makes things easier to work with during the mixing stage. I sometimes move the headphones further away from my ears
to varying degrees and this can sometimes help to determine the pitch in the bottom end better but I find it's always
better to check on monitors. Better understanding of frequencies, high pass filtering, summing, headroom and using
frequency analysers can all help the mixing process too when you're doing it blind, like with headphones. This is a good
book if you want to do some ear testing: http://www.amazon.com/Critical-Listening-Skills-AudioProfessionals/dp/1598630237
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Re:Tips on mixing with headphones?
Posted by mvmono - 2009/04/24 16:41
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kirlian wrote:
@dolfazoid i like your project a lot. my niece has down syndrome and i have often wondered how i could involve her in
my musical life in a way that would be meaningful to her.
+1 dolfazoid. I'm really interested in your project too. I work with people with disabilities and suffering from a mental
illness and have been wanting to design a music program. It hadn't occurred to me to use an electronic approach but that
seems perfect. Thanks for sharing!
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Re:Tips on mixing with headphones?
Posted by TrondC - 2009/04/24 18:43
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I too am in a situation where speakers are not an option, so I've always just used headphones. mine are very good
(Denton AH D1001) I think, and my mixes have improved since I used cheap earplugs only, but tracks always sound very
different when played through my stereo in our apartment, and most certainly different when I played live, and I
discovered that certain frequences really stood out (deep bass and crashes) as way too loud.. This makes it hard to mix
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so that stuff sounds as good on my stereo as they do in my headphones.. DOn't really know what to do here tho..
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Re:Tips on mixing with headphones?
Posted by lcvl - 2009/04/24 18:58
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I think you can get pretty decent mixes using headphones.
Just make sure you know them pretty well by listening to a lot of music on them.
Don't wanna sound offensive but I think that most people having problems mixing with headphones would struggle with
mixing on monitors as well.
Now, I'm not saying that you should get rid of your monitors and start using hp only. The old tip of checking your mixes
on many different playback systems remains still valid.
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Re:Tips on mixing with headphones?
Posted by jsrockit - 2009/04/24 21:32
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lcvl wrote:
Don't wanna sound offensive but I think that most people having problems mixing with headphones would struggle with
mixing on monitors as well.
I agree with this.
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Re:Tips on mixing with headphones?
Posted by GYS - 2009/04/24 22:04
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jsrockit wrote:
lcvl wrote:
Don't wanna sound offensive but I think that most people having problems mixing with headphones would struggle with
mixing on monitors as well.
I agree with this.
I'll be the first to admit that I'm not awesome at mixing, but I can say for a fact that my older mixes using computer
speakers and/or sattelite speakers + subwoofer sound better than my primo headphone attempts. I think the consensus
here is that I should get used to the sound of a good mix on my cans, be sure to A/B with other music in the
headphones, and then also find time to rock the monitors as well.
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Re:Tips on mixing with headphones?
Posted by xmit - 2009/04/24 23:12
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my two'penneth guys - as professional sound engineer of over 15 years- mixing on cans is nigh-on impossible...but thats
not to say dont try it. You really need the very best open headphones you can afford ( we have Sennheiser HD600s &
650's here at work - they're not cheap ! ) & as others have mentioned, get to 'learn' them as much as you can, ideally by
listening to mixes you know ( commercially produced stuff ) first on monitors, then on cans, then back again....etc
etc...Listening intently to the differences between what you hear on cans & what you hear over the monitors.
But personally, I wouldnt recommend it still - not to produce to a commercially acceptable level : but then again most
people just mix on little nearfield monitors & its almost impossible to mix on those to a commercially acceptable standard
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too !
For what its worth I have a home 'writing' set up ( which is where my Elektrons live ) & I work exclusively on cans
there...but I always pack my babies up & bring them into the studio to actually mix the tracks on a big pair of Dynaudio
AIRs & then check the mix on studio 2's little Genelecs...it really is the only way to be sure !
Having said that, I have a very talented friend ( who has great 'ears' as we say in the business ) who spent years mixing
on nothing but headphones ( AKG K400s ) in his home studio & consistently produced amazingly tight mixes....? I would
say finally though that type of music you're producing is a big big factor in this discussion...
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Re:Tips on mixing with headphones?
Posted by eNeeEss - 2009/04/26 03:46
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Not sure if it was mentioned in a reply, but mixing is also best done at low volumes. So, I'd recommend looking into a
smaller set of monitors that you can place at ear level. I use KRK-VXT4's and they work well at low volume. And are
suprisingly loud and punchy at higher volume when I want it. I don't just use them for mixing/leveling, but for jamming too.
Also for low level mixing check out these:
http://www.triplepdesigns.com/pyramids.htm
You won't disturb your family with those.
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Re:Tips on mixing with headphones?
Posted by Ookpikk - 2009/04/26 04:11
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GYS wrote:
jsrockit wrote:
lcvl wrote:
Don't wanna sound offensive but I think that most people having problems mixing with headphones would struggle with
mixing on monitors as well.
I agree with this.
I'll be the first to admit that I'm not awesome at mixing, but I can say for a fact that my older mixes using computer
speakers and/or sattelite speakers + subwoofer sound better than my primo headphone attempts. I think the consensus
here is that I should get used to the sound of a good mix on my cans, be sure to A/B with other music in the
headphones, and then also find time to rock the monitors as well.
The problem with mixing on cans for me is that the volume you have to have them at to hear bass properly gets
uncomfortable pretty quickly.
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Re:Tips on mixing with headphones?
Posted by jsrockit - 2009/04/26 09:38
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GYS wrote:
jsrockit wrote:
lcvl wrote:
Don't wanna sound offensive but I think that most people having problems mixing with headphones would struggle with
mixing on monitors as well.
I agree with this.
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I'll be the first to admit that I'm not awesome at mixing, but I can say for a fact that my older mixes using computer
speakers and/or sattelite speakers + subwoofer sound better than my primo headphone attempts.
I like your mixes though.
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Re:Tips on mixing with headphones?
Posted by actuel - 2009/04/26 10:01
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after years of being in apartments, having roommates, a wife that gets up a 6am, and now a child, i have learned to mix
in headphones. while they may not be the ideal environment, i totally think it's possible to churn out 'good' mixes from
cans. of course i still find times to listening through monitors, in the car, and other environs, but if you gotta work with
headphones don't despair, it can be done.
in the end, if you want great results, you'll get them regardless of environment. as previously mentioned, just listening a
lot to other music you know really well will help go a long way in learning the nuances of your particular headphones.
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Re:Tips on mixing with headphones?
Posted by choice_of_meat - 2009/04/29 09:11
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Phase relationships are important, so maybe mix in MONO.
A lot of the gearslutz people mix this way... there was some thread about it awhile back.
I mix with etymotic hp's. they seem to work, but they are ultra detailed and mixes come up muddy on cheaper playback
speakers... Seems like you can "get away" with bad frequencies easier on nice headphones, whereas on speakers etc..
you can pcik them out easier.
For mixing in general check out any of the online guides...
Also are you sure your friends system is acurate? Maybe he has a big standing bass wave in his room?
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Re:Tips on mixing with headphones?
Posted by GYS - 2009/04/29 09:19
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Thanks for all the feedback. Mixing in mono is an interesting approach...I'll have to give that a whirl.
Any links to online mixing guides (electronic music) would be great! I have the Mixing Engineer's Handbook, and while
informative, it's very geared towards rock music.
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Re:Tips on mixing with headphones?
Posted by tIB - 2009/04/30 14:25
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Bob KAtz mastering audio has been well talked about in these parts but Ive never read it myself.
Mono is indeed a very good idea for headphone mixes which i will try... if its good enough for brian wilson. :lol:
I do all my stuff in cans now... though not through choice. Im not saying my mixes are great (they aren't and to compound
things my signal path is poor atm) but they keep me creating, which ultimately is all Im looking for. Im in a position where
what I have is what I use and Im making do with that for now. Having said that I loved the lofi scene so perhaps im of that
ethos anyway and will upgrade things when Im in a more suitable living situation.
FWIW I agree with Actuel on this... :backslap:
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hearing things that have been done on cans by others suggest it can be done to a very high standard.
Also I just dont like being told that something cant be done.. course it can!
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Re:Tips on mixing with headphones?
Posted by mvmono - 2009/04/30 14:50
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tIB wrote:
Bob KAtz mastering audio has been well talked about in these parts but Ive never read it myself.
Mike Stavrou wrote an interesting book called "Mixing with your mind" which takes quite a different approach to
understanding mixing.
I think these books are not so focused on mixing with headphones though but no doubt useful. My mate came over the
other day and within 5 minutes he had a mix going on a track I'm working on that gave me a whole new vibe to work
around. He instantly seems to know what effects, eqs or compression a particular part might need but also makes it a
creative process. After years of doing it he just knows how to mix and that kind of experience is invaluable to me, beats
any book.
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Re:Tips on mixing with headphones?
Posted by tIB - 2009/04/30 15:06
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Yeah, you cant beat someone coming around and showing you whats what... much easier way to learn due to the
interaction.
If only books could answer back... :lol:
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Re:Tips on mixing with headphones?
Posted by marcello m. - 2009/04/30 18:54
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You can achieve nice work with headphones.
My advice would be to get open ones like the shennheiser HD 580 / 600.
Indeed as with speakers, get used to them, listen to finished material you like and compare with alternate sound sources.
I own the HD580 (which is unfortunately discontinued), I use it when I'm not in the studio and I must confess that they are
really nice.
The fact that they are discontinued helps you find them cheaper in some stores.;)
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Re:Tips on mixing with headphones?
Posted by molotov - 2009/04/30 19:21
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I use some beyer dt250s and also have kids in the room next door..
I think getting just used to listening on them is the main thing, i use them for my ipod to and from work every day so listen
to all sorts of music including my own, I guess subconsciously I know what things should sound like and can usually get
an alright mix going.. but yeah bass is the difficult element for me!
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Re:Tips on mixing with headphones?
Posted by grain - 2009/05/28 21:43
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anselmi wrote:
the only tip I can tell you is not to use them...sorry:(
I don´t know any musician/producer/engineer that cpould reccomend to mix with hp
Just to get back to this argument, I was just reading the Richard Devine interview and at the bottom of his riduculously
comprehensive list of gear he says:
"You really don't need any of this gear to make good music. A nice clean kitchen table, a pair of decent headphones and
a Macbook running your favorite sequencer is really all you need."
So there's a very reputable producer who does recommend. I also heard that Luke Vibert mixed the entire Wagon Christ
album, 'Musipal', on headphones :blink:
Sometimes it's necessary to mix or make music on headphones. Like the original poster, GYS, I was in a situation where
my 2 year old was in the next room, and I get some of my best work done at night on my headphones.
DECENT headphones is the operative word here. My AKG K701s are the dogs... =)
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Re:Tips on mixing with headphones?
Posted by GYS - 2009/05/28 22:04
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grain wrote:
anselmi wrote:
the only tip I can tell you is not to use them...sorry:(
I don´t know any musician/producer/engineer that cpould reccomend to mix with hp
Just to get back to this argument, I was just reading the Richard Devine interview and at the bottom of his riduculously
comprehensive list of gear he says:
"You really don't need any of this gear to make good music. A nice clean kitchen table, a pair of decent headphones and
a Macbook running your favorite sequencer is really all you need."
So there's a very reputable producer who does recommend. I also heard that Luke Vibert mixed the entire Wagon Christ
album, 'Musipal', on headphones :blink:
Sometimes it's necessary to mix or make music on headphones. Like the original poster, GYS, I was in a situation where
my 2 year old was in the next room, and I get some of my best work done at night on my headphones.
DECENT headphones is the operative word here. My AKG K701s are the dogs... =)
It's funny you bring the thread back to life because I've been having a MUCH easier time mixing with headphones using
hardware as opposed to software. When using Reason with headphones, it would sound fine, but crap on monitors.
Now using headphones directly with the MD, it sounds fine and also sounds great on the monitors, or only requires a few
tweaks to levels (mostly attenuating highs and separating basses/kicks with a bit of filtering). I've been quite happy. :)
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