Compilation: Discipline, choice, needs (2006)
Compilation: Discipline, choice, needs (2006)
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006
From: "Booker, Melissa"
Subject: constructivist pedagogy and classroom "management"
In preparation for the new school year, I picked up a couple of books that I had been
meaning to read for a while and thought that their contents might make for an interesting
discussion on this list.
I just finished Alfie Kohn's book Beyond Discipline: From Compliance to Community.
What kept going through my mind as I read it was how the modeling pedagogy which is
Constructivist in nature is in direct contrast to classroom management programs like Assertive
Discipline or any of the other classroom management programs that promote a top-down, rules
and consequences, teacher in charge classroom. I began to reflect upon my own classroom
management practices and began to see that perhaps my success with the Modeling curriculum
may be hindered by the fact that my classroom management practices don't give students enough
choices and indeed don't ask enough of the students as participants in how the class is run. Why
shouldn't my classroom management also be constructivist in nature? Why should we ask
students to be reflective learners when it comes to physics concepts but not when it comes to
their day-to-day behavior in the classroom?
Have any of the rest of you given this thought? I am now reading The Schools Our
Children Deserve: Moving Beyond Traditional Classrooms and Tougher Standards also by Alfie
Kohn and would be interested in starting a discussion about it.
Melissa Booker
Physics & IB Physics Teacher
Robinson Secondary School
-----------------------------Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006
From: Rachael Black
You wonder if you as a modeler should move towards a more constructivist approach to
classroom management, correct? I went to a graduate school that taught us that was the best
way to go, and so for the first couple of years I used it. At the time I worked in a school that was
poor and had a large (87%) Hispanic population. The “I respect you, you respect me” worked
well with the students. The head of my department, however, said that I needed to stop wasting
the students' time with touchy/feely things. I spent time getting to know the students before
starting teaching and I offered projects that included finding ethnic role models in science. This
school had a traditional schedule with 50 minute periods.
After two years of dealing with this head of department I transferred to a school in a wellto-do area that offered a block schedule of 2 hour periods. The “I respect you, you respect me”
did not work here. The students were used to teachers who cared and who were top teachers.
They expected it and so did their parents. Parents were way more involved and students were
very spoiled. I found that wherever I gave them room and time to make decisions for themselves
it was almost always a disaster. Maybe it is something else in my personality, but the students
began to take over the classroom and in a bad way. So now I am thinking that the best way to
handle the students is to find the troublemakers the first couple of days while I'm getting to know
the students and deal with them severely. Afterwards I should use a Dwain Desbien type
modeling discourse management style. After four years at this type of school I believe more calm
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Compilation: Discipline, choice, needs (2006)
assertive discipline is necessary. Some of the students associate my kindness with weakness. I
could still never be mean to a student, but I want to change my approach.
-----------------------------Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006
From: "Montero, Carlos A."
After my first modeling workshop this summer I quickly adopted and embraced the
methodology. As soon as I was planning for the beginning of the year I realized that classroom
management should also follow this approach. I decided to let students come up with the rules
for the classroom. The way I did it was (we did it last week) very successful in my classes. I
split the class into groups of three and asked them to come up with three rules that each student
feels is fundamental to maximize their learning in this class. I started by stating a premise that
we could all agree on: We are here to learn chemistry and we must utilize the entire time
effectively. Every rule they develop should serve that main objective. The students were also
asked to whiteboard their three rules to later present to the class (this serves their introduction to
whiteboarding as well).
As students wrote down their rules I would go group by group getting to know them and
talking to them. I quickly observed many attempts or demands for breaks, and other liberties
which did not comply with the original premise, so I reminded them of that and sometimes I
would ask them to leave those rules and see if they passed through the entire class. Students felt
they were very much in command and I always respected their choices. During presentation
time you would have students asking for liberties such as cell phone use, while other students
would propose to eliminate all cell phone use. This would start a debate which would be a lot of
fun to witness.
I made it clear to students that I am giving them this respect and freedom because I
trusted their maturity and expertise in education. I told them they should know how to behave by
now and that this exercise is just a formality. The exercise went well with all my classes except
for one. This class was the rowdiest, and I had to quickly let them know that they were losing
my trust and respect as students and that I would have to adopt a more authoritative top-down
style if they did not behave as expected. They changed rather quickly.
After all students presented their rules, I would write the original ones on the board and
would compile them in their syllabus which I will give them this week. I also divided all their
rules in three main categories, RESPECT, RESPONSIBILITY and ATTENTION. I also gave
them the dictionary definition of these words which can be very enlightening. I basically told
my students that in this class they will be in charge of their learning and their behavior as long as
they proved to me that they were worthy of that power. I am still waiting to see how this will
hold up through the year.
Carlos Montero
Chemistry Teacher
-----------------------------Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006
From: John Clement
Piaget also studied moral development. He found that younger children rely on rules like
“thou shalt not”, but older children use reciprocity as the important principle. So, there is a real
problem with the standard school discipline methods which rely on top-down rules. It essentially
retards the development of more mature moral development. The big problem is that the school
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Compilation: Discipline, choice, needs (2006)
system is rule based and the number of strict rules seems to be increasing along with more
draconian penalties.
I would love to find out if anyone has come up with some good solutions to this problem.
A mature management style could possibly improve the implementation of Modeling.
John M. Clement
Houston, TX
-----------------------------Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006
From: "Booker, Melissa"
John, you have a very interesting comment on the problem of using traditional
management styles in promoting "a more mature moral development." Kohn often cites Piaget's
work. Here are a few passages from Kohn's book Beyond Discipline that interested me and I
thought might interest the Modeling community:
The 'constructivist' model of learning challenges the central metaphors that so often drive
instruction. Children, like adults, are not passive receptacles into which knowledge is
poured...When children are required to accept or memorize a ready-made truth, they do
not really 'learn' in any meaningful sense of the word...
Exactly the same is true if those right answers concern how one is supposed to act. I can
get a child to recite 'We should keep our hands and feet to ourselves' by repeating it
enough times or by posting it on the wall, just as I can get her to recite 'To divide a
fraction, turn it upside down and multiply.' But [this example doesn't] suggest someone
who is developing socially and morally, any more than the later example suggests
someone who is developing intellectually. (p.67)
...there is big difference between 'internal' and 'intrinsic', between internalizing values and
constructing them--in short, between being self-disciplined (in this limited sense of the
term) and truly autonomous. Accepting someone else's expectations is a far cry from
developing one's own. Doing something out of a sense of compulsion isn't at all the same
thing as doing it because one knows and feels that it is the right thing to do. (p.83)
Isn't this a lot like the constructivist philosophy to which Modeling Instruction has been
pretty closely tied to since the beginning? How can we ask students to think critically about
physics on the one hand, but suppress their critical thinking when it comes to their behavior and
simply comply without thought? I used to post five (very general) rules with consequences for
the last five years at the beginning of the school year and didn't find it effective ( Admittedly, I
hardly used them with maybe the exception of dealing with tardies).
What was always more effective was when I spoke one-on-one with the students and had
large class discussions with them about why as a class we desire certain norms. Yes, it is difficult
to give up "control" and, yes, students shouldn't "run the school" if they haven't yet developed
mature moral and ethical behaviors in the first place. However, just because they haven't yet
developed mature moral and ethical behaviors doesn't mean that our classroom goals shouldn't
extended to developing these behaviors. The point should be that students should be asked to
reflect on why we want these behavioral norms -- how do they affect the students themselves and
the classroom community? If we want them to make good choices in the future, we must give
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them the opportunity to make real choices and reflect on the results of these choices as is
developmentally appropriate now. Not later.
-----------------------------Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006
From: Colleen Megowan
Have you read the book Dumbing Us Down by John Taylor Gatto? It was written in 1992
but it has a powerful message that is still on the mark I think. Gatto was New York State Teacher
of the Year in 1991. He talks about the importance of choices in the learning environment as he
describes the 'hidden curriculum' of compulsory education...it is a fairly damning indictment of
the systems the education establishment have put into place to control what goes on in schools...
he feels that it effectively destroys intellectual curiosity and community in the classroom.
It's a fairly short book and well worth reading--It made me rethink what I ask of my
students on a day to day basis.
M. Colleen Megowan (Romanowicz)
Arizona State University/CRESMET
-----------------------------Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006
From: Marcia Powell
I would love to start a discussion about the questions raised in generating community in
the classroom! For me, Alfie Kohn was a jump off point which gave me ideas, but no concrete
plan that brought it into my classroom. This spring, I took a Love and Logic class, which treats
kids with respect, gives the emphasis on respect for other people and focusing on relationships,
and plugging the holes in a discipline problem so you don't descend on a student OR the main
office in a fit of anger. This system focuses on the idea of giving children choices, giving kids
options that use best practice psychology and brain-based concepts that push the process of
discipline into the cognitive thinking mode of the brain instead of the 'fight or flight' mentality
that accompanies many of assertive discipline models. You can find many at
http://www.loveandlogic.com/ecom/c-37-favorite-books-of-educators-and-otherprofessionals.aspx
I especially like School Discipline: A salamander is not a fish and
Teaching with Love and Logic
Just for the record, I am not associated with the Love and Logic program. I have,
however, noticed a dramatic change in the last 2 months with my 4-H kids, my own 5 kids, and
my relationships with others. This is something that works for me.
Marcia Powell,
West Delaware Science
----------------------------Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006
From: Fran Poodry
The line below from Rachael Black caught my eye. She was describing a problem she
had with spoiled students who had a tendency to "take over" when given some responsibility for
their own rules.
I would like to suggest the opposite: with my students I find the "troublemakers" in the
first couple of days and then I make a point of making them my special kids: they demonstrate
with me, they run errands. I make sure to listen very attentively and respond extra-thoughtfully
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when they speak up in class. Then those kids help out with reinforcing the learning in class, and
I don't generally have trouble with them -- even if I have to "write them up" for cutting, it's all
very friendly and doesn't become a year-long issue with me dreading to go teach a particular
class.
While I realize that this may seem like a case of "the squeaky wheel gets the grease," by
eliminating the source of friction/attention/ire in the classroom early, during the rest of the year I
have more time to concentrate on the quieter, less-attention-grabbing kids. In fact, since I have
found that the "troublemakers" are pretty bright, if they are on my side I can sometimes get them
to help a struggling lab group or explain a problem to a confused student.
Fran Poodry
West Chester East High School
-----------------------------Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006
From: Margaret Furdek
I've been catching up on the posts and feel compelled to throw in my two cents about
"respect." In the past when I taught 9th grade, I would warn students very early on that they
should think about what they expected me to do as their teacher. I listed activities in class such as
"watching a video" or "group discussion" and solicited what they thought students would look
like during each activity. I wrote them as they stated them and we discussed them too. This
became targeted specific behaviors that I could refer back to... and I did with generally positive
responses from students. After a few additional days of reminders I would ask for written
suggestions for TEACHER expectations.
Ninth graders invariably displayed great discomfort with this. They were much more
likely to contribute to discussions on behaviors and expectations for STUDENTS. Small groups
of students whiteboarded two or three "teacher expectations" and I often commented positively
about their suggestions and promised to aim in that direction. The suggestions were never
inappropriate. The activity seemed to set a positive tone for the semester. Until I saw this post, I
forgot that I used to do this. Maybe I will again. It makes the students see another point of view.
Margaret Furdek
Beaver Dam High School
-----------------------------Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006
From: David Coupland
I resonated with Fran Poodry's comments on dealing constructively with potential
troublemakers. The charter school where I will begin teaching in a couple of weeks bases their
classroom management approach on William Glasser's Choice Theory. In Glasser's view, all
forms of extrinsic motivation boil down to different types of coercion. This includes punishing,
threatening, pleading, even rewarding. He claims none of these produce lasting results. Instead
teachers must understand and appeal to students' intrinsic motivations, which he describes in
terms of five basic needs: survival (security), love and belonging, power (power over, personal
empowerment, power in groups), freedom, and fun. Everyone has all of these needs, but for each
individual certain needs are stronger depending on their personality and circumstances.
Students act out when one or more of their basic needs are not being met. For example,
perhaps Fran's troublemakers had unsatisfied needs for personal power. Fran's response gave
them more power and recognition in the classroom, so they stopped acting out. Glasser points
out that traditional classrooms often don't support love and belonging, empowerment, freedom,
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or fun, so it's not surprising that students misbehave. A good book that briefly summarizes
Choice Theory, then provides a lot of practical activities and methods for implementing it in the
classroom, is The Classroom of Choice: Giving Students What They Need and Getting What You
Want by Jonathon Erwin.
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