AN221 Dr. Fenella Cannell
Transcript of Interviews
Chloe Evans
25/03/2010
Walsingham: Transcript of Interviews at the Anglican Shrine Shop
Protestant Shrine Shop: A mild mannered middle aged woman, shop assistant. There
is calming music playing in the background.
Where do most of the pilgrims come from? Here (UK) or abroad?
Mostly this country I would think. They come and spend a week or a weekend
throughout summer periods, because we have accommodation for them. They come
for a few days, and absorb the atmosphere. But they are mostly from this country I
would think.
What do you think is special about Walsingham?
What’s special about it? Well, the whole feel about it. There is such a lovely peaceful
feel. Its almost tangible, especially in the middle of the winter, it’s beautiful, you can
almost reach out and touch it. It’s just lovely.
Do you live here?
No I don’t live in Walsingham. I live in X. It’s too expensive to live here. Property is
quite high. But a lot of people live here, my manager lives here; would you like a
word with him? He’s a good person to talk to because he lives here. I only come in
two days a week.
Are you a Christian?
Yes
Have you been to a pilgrimage?
No, well… I have done the Walsingham pilgrimage once because every year they
have what they call the national pilgrimage, its one day and we get masses and masses
of people flooding in through the day. So I have done that years ago, but I never
thought that I come and work here. But it’s a good place to work, you meet a lot an
awful lot of lovely people. To me, that’s the most important thing about working here,
the people are just lovely.
Are you planning to go on another national pilgrimage again?
Well, no because I work at the national pilgrimage. And I’m not really interested in
going to other pilgrimages; obviously there are lots of other pilgrim sites. But I can’t
say that I’m really interested in that. I like working here, I like being here. It’s a good
place. What are you doing here? Are you doing a project?
We are researching pilgrimage experiences. What you think about it and things
like that. The pilgrimage experience basically.
Page 1 of 10
AN221 Dr. Fenella Cannell
25/03/2010
Transcript of Interviews
Chloe Evans
Oh right, so we have a big selection of books actually. People just come for the books.
But most of the pilgrims tend to come and buy rosaries and they buy crosses,
crucifixes, and we have just started these icons, they are quite popular too. They are
very orthodox. The manager walks in, he is a man in his late thirties with a happy
disposition.. These girls are doing a project and they would like to know what you
think of the village as someone who lives here.
Manager: Ooooooooooooh you’re asking the wrong wire, I’m not even an
Englishman, I only moved down recently. hahahaha
When did you move?
Manager :A year past since September. So I have been here for about eighteen
months. I’ve always been a City lad, but so I don’t know to put my spin on it or not.
Haha. Where do I start? Well I have quite enjoyed it. It’s very quiet, especially out of
season, in the winter time. There’s not a lot happening at all. And, I’m struggling a
little bit with that. But in June, its nice because everybody knows each other so its
more like a community thing rather than a living in a big city.
Have you been here before you moved?
Manager: I came here on pilgrimage before that’s how I found the place, coming
down to the Anglican shrine to the local church. And always thought ‘Silly me, I
would like to live here’ and I bought a little cottage about two, nearly three years past
for a holiday home. And then I came down just on pilgrimage and was offered a job
and so I decided to move down permanently. There’s a lot of community here, people
are…there’s gossip as well. Obviously in a small village everybody knows everybody
else’s business. But, people in general are good to each other and they’ll look out for
each other and everything. It’s really different from the city, because in the city you’re
anonymous aren’t you? No knows each other. But I used to like that. Maybe people
are too nosey. This is a nice village, but we were talking about it earlier, saying that
this type of village was an awful mix of different characters in it. Because it attracts
obviously, a word for a better word some...(voice breaks) loonies… hahaha. Breaks
into laughter.
Being religious, you know what I mean though, it’s quite a mixed up pot.
Lady: Well you get some people who are fanatically involved with the shrine. So you
got that extreme and you got the other extreme, people who have ALWAYS lived in
the village and really have no interest at all with the shrine.
Manager: That’s right, you’ll probably find that if you spoke to a local person, a real
local, not like me, who has always lived here they’ll probably have nothing to do with
the religious side of this village at all. But on the other hand, but if there was not a
pilgrim site here, this village would not be what it is.
Lady: It might not even be in existence.
Sc: That’s right it might not exist, because this obviously brings in business and
livelihood for everybody, for work and everything else. So there is a dual purpose for
Page 2 of 10
AN221 Dr. Fenella Cannell
25/03/2010
Transcript of Interviews
Chloe Evans
the local people. Some people might not like it, but at the same time the village would
not be here, if it wasn’t for that, ‘cos there wouldn’t be any work here.
Where do the locals hide then?
Manager There’s quite a big housing estate just…. Lady interjects
Lady: Up the Wells Road
Manager: Called Mount Pleasant, and that will be more local. It’s really like two
villages because you got the medieval village that’s really tied round the shrines. And
then you got Mount Pleasant which is probably like another village, it’s ‘them’ and
‘us’, it sounds terrible but that’s the way it is. You’ll probably quite a lot of people in
this housing estate, some of them have never been down to the village before. But if
they do head down, they’ll head to Fakenham which is a local market town or go to
Norwich. They have no reason to come into the village, really. ‘Cos the estate will
have their own newsagents and grocery store so that they won’t have to come down
for that. It sounds crazy, but there are people who have never set foot in any of the
shrines but have lived here all their lives.
Can you tell us a little bit about you pilgrimage experience?
Sc: About mine..? Shrieks in exasperation (Uahhhhh) Talking about putting me on the
spot! Haha I came down with the pilgrimage from X. It was a group consisted of
Anglicans, Scottish Episcopals, Roman Catholics, Baptists, Salvation Army, we
started with four people, and seven years down the line we were bringing forty
people, and we loved it. It was wonderful, we came down for five days and do all the
masses and different things, but we had some fun as well. Like going away on days
out, maybe the seaside or some historical sites. And on the Sunday night, the day
before we left, we would have a party. Because all the worship is finished and it was
time to let your hair down, and celebrate and have a night together. It would be a
party, it wouldn’t be religious. Because we have done all the religion throughout the
week. It was great and it would be all ages with little kids and people right up to 70 or
80 years old. It was good, good fun. It was just lovely. It was just to get away from
the city, because we were all city folk, coming to this. I’ve got a different perspective
now that I live here but it was wonderful.
What’s your perspective now that you live here?
Manager: It’s a harder place than I thought it was. It’s different. It’s not, well, that I
worked here as well, you start to see things differently. I love it, but…I can see it as
not all…it’s like seeing a play, its magical and wonderful but when you go backstage,
you realise, its not quite…(voice fades off)
Lady: interjects…that’s right…you see the reality.
Manager: …of it all…
Lady: It’s like watching Doctor Who on television. Laughter breaks out. It looks
absolutely wonderful, but once you are in the studio and see how all the effects are
done, it takes away…all the magic, doesn’t it?
That’s sad then…
Page 3 of 10
AN221 Dr. Fenella Cannell
Transcript of Interviews
Chloe Evans
25/03/2010
Lady: Yes it is sad.
Manager: Interjects quickly, as if he were trying to defend himself. But it is magical,
there are still lots of good things, because that sounds like I’m downing it, but I
wouldn’t because I love it, I love it. I just see another side to it all, but I still really
like it.
We went to the healing mass yesterday, and quite a lot of people come for
healing…
Both: Yes that’s right, they do.
Manager :Yes, quite a lot of people get something out of that. Don’t they.
Lady; yes, yes they do. Because whatever you say bout this village, whatever you say
about it, good or bad, there is still something about it, something that you can’t put
your finger on. Its got this…its got this sort of…aura, atmosphere about it, that is very
difficult to describe. But it’s there, you feel it.
Manager: Yeah, that’s what you said recently (to the lady). For all the ups and downs,
the shrine is bigger than everybody. That will be here long after we are all gone. So
sometimes when you say “This is bad” or we’re fed up with something, but it’s the
people, it’s not the shrine. Because the shrine is forever, as far as I’m concerned, and
that will be there long after us…nutcases (laughs) are gone…It will be here long after
it, so sometimes we get mixed up and we say that “this is bad” or “this is bad” or
whatever, it’s because it’s a problem with another person. It’s not the shrine, because
the shrine is eternal, it’s bigger than us all.
Have you heard any prophecies about the shrine itself, I mean its very Roman
Catholic.
Lady: Well, it’s because it started out as, in the days when the vision was had
everyone was Catholic, so…it is a Catholic thing. Catholic though, meaning for
everyone. That’s what the word Catholic means. But now, it’s split into Anglican and
Roman Catholic, but we still interconnect. We have lovely Roman Catholic pilgrims
to come in here and buy things from us and we’ve got people to go down there and so
we do interconnect.
Manager: Pilgrimage would be the same for me, when we came down, this was very
Roman for them. And though they were Anglican, they would do everything, but they
didn’t have a problem with it. Its nice because you can differ in the amount you
wanted to do. I’m an Anglican and I still find it strange to…before I came here I was
Protestant, and I still find it strange to cross myself. It sounds silly, but that’s just a
little thing with me. I have great devotion to Our Lady, Mary but, but as a Protestant
we won’t normally have that. But something twigged with me I have devotion for
that, but I still have difficulty with crossing myself. That’s silly isn’t it? But it’s just a
personal thing for me. But I think the great thing about the Anglican shrine is that you
can dip your toes in and out of what you want. And nobody’s upset if you don’t do
anything, which is nice. Because sometimes you go to some places and you don’t do
Page 4 of 10
AN221 Dr. Fenella Cannell
25/03/2010
Transcript of Interviews
Chloe Evans
everything, people are annoyed with you. I think here you can do can do what you
want, and nobody cares. I still can’t cross myself, it must be something to do with my
Protestant blood. Laughs
Lady: I shouldn’t think so..
Manager: I’ sure that it is.
Lady: We have special pilgrimages too, we have a youth pilgrimage, and a youth
pilgrimage, and its wonderful for kids.
They say, that the lady who worked here yesterday, couldn’t walk, and now she
can walk.
Manager: Oh M was in…M had a stroke, remember?... she was in a wheel chair and
then crutches, for a while. But I don’t know what she said on it. But she was seriously
ill, I don’t know anything, all that I know was that she was seriously ill at one point.
Wasn’t she?
Lady: We also have working in here as well, one of the sisters from the Priory, she
would have been here yesterday, and you saw her.
She was talking about lots of miracles.
Manager: Have you seen Sister Jane Louise on your travels yet? Did someone tell you
to speak to Sister Jane Louise? I thought someone…Did Sylvia tell you? Oh, Sylvia
told you? Because Sylvia was at my house last night and she told me that you guys
were around. Laughter
Did you manage to see Sister Jane Louise?
No
Manager: She’d be worth speaking to because there is a lot here for youth and she
does a lot of work in up Mount Pleasant with all the young ones. Are you still
hanging around for a little while?
We are leaving this afternoon and we are going for the Healing Mass?
Manager: At half past two? I wonder if she is around right now, she would quite like
to meet you. I’ll see if I can get a hold of her for you. Just wait…it’ll be interesting for
you…He leaves
Lady: So how long have you been here?
Just this week. It was a bit disappointing because we were going to arrive earlier,
but because of the traffic…it took a long time to get here.
Lady: So where do you come from?
We’ll all from London right now, it’s a school trip. And I’m from Hong Kong.
Page 5 of 10
AN221 Dr. Fenella Cannell
Transcript of Interviews
Chloe Evans
Lady: Ah Hong Kong, that’s nice…So are you all from here?
25/03/2010
Malaysia
And I’m from Reading, not that exciting.
Lady: It’s not as warm in Reading as it is in Malaysia. Laughter So what do you have
to do?
We have to write a report on pilgrimages. Because we are doing a course on
Christianity. And the whole experience of pilgrims, focused on the emotional.
Lady: It is mostly the emotional, I would think, it’s a funny thing, I suppose that
where you have been brought up along a certain path, with your certain experiences
you have, you add to it or you change it, so it becomes your religion to you. It
becomes very personal and not like anyone else’s, it’s just yours. That’s why it
becomes so interesting to talk to people who come, and we can tell when someone
wants to talk. They feel the need to talk. So we are encouraged working in here to let
them talk if they want to. It’s therapeutic for them. It fulfils an enormous need and the
people who I speak to they always just love coming. So whatever it is they are
looking for, they find. Which is good, isn’t it? So, this is what it is meant.
It draws people back as well…
Lady: It does, yes, I have been working here five years and I’m beginning to get to
know the people who are coming back at the same time of the year. And it’s lovely to
day to say to them, ‘It’s lovely to see you again.” And they feel wanted then, that they
have been recognised. It’s really nice to see them all. They have stories to tell
you…it’s just a wonderful place, people find peace.
There’s a big contrast, as soon as you walk off the coach.
Lady: I can imagine, people say that they can sleep here and they couldn’t sleep
before, which is nice. Mind you, sleeping in London is not easy. I find it difficult now
getting used to the traffic. It’s really nice, and in the summer time, when they have a
big pilgrimage down at the Catholic shrine they have all these marquees and
everything, and that must be real fun. It looks like that.
Manager walks in….
Manager: I can’t get hold of her on the phone, but I’m sure she would like to meet
you. Give me two minutes. It’ll be a shame for her not to because she’ll be quite good,
she might be having lunch, but who cares... (Laughs) I’ll only be a minute. (Goes
outside)
Everyone seems so happy here. Willing to talk.
Lady: I suppose that if you found something here, you are keen to tell people about it.
Have you felt anything?
Page 6 of 10
AN221 Dr. Fenella Cannell
25/03/2010
Transcript of Interviews
Chloe Evans
Lady: Umm…I feel peace here. I mean it doesn’t matter how cross or how or upset I
got during the rest of the week , when I come here I feel relaxed and when I go home
I’m relaxed.
We met someone at the congregation this morning at the local parish and she
said that she retired here…
Yes, yes we get quite a few like that. One of the other ladies that works in here is the
wife of a retired priest. There are several here, you work two or three days and
they’ve got flexibility, the only person who works all week is the manager. Oh not
him, he’s the deputy manager. So, we get on well together, and we work as a team,
which is nice. And we get to know all the people who worked in the shrine and the
education part. We’re just a big family, really. Which is nice.
She starts to inquire about us
Lady: So you’re all at college, are you?
Uh...we’re at University.
Lady: Oh sorry, which university?
L.S.E
Lady: London School of Economics…right…Are you enjoying it?
Yes
Lady: And you’re going to come out with a degree in what...?
Social Anthropology
Lady: Anthropology…oh wow…that covers us all, doesn’t it? Are you all naturally
Christians?
Us two are (Chloe and Jessica),
I’m Muslim
Agnostic
Lady: Agnostic? Well that covers it all really. Laughs Well that’s nice and you’re all
friends.
Yes
Lady: That’s really, really nice.
Religion can bring good.
Lady: It can and it should. Particularly our religions. Yes we all worship the same
God. Yes we should, we should all be friends.
Page 7 of 10
AN221 Dr. Fenella Cannell
Transcript of Interviews
Chloe Evans
I think it’s just mutual respect.
25/03/2010
Lady: That’s right, if you care about people and you accept the differences.
A lot of people talk about healing and miracles, have you seen anything?
Lady: I haven’t, but that doesn’t mean to say that it doesn’t happen.
The Sister yesterday really emphasised it, in that lots of people come here for
that.
Lady: She would know a lot more than I do because she meets people like that. They
do a lot with the community, the sisters, they are lovely.
The Manager comes back into the shop.
Manager: She’ll be round in two minutes.
Thank you
Lady: We get a lot of people in, just to look at the snow drops. The original shrine
was in the Abbey grounds
What’s your favourite part about working here?
Well, it’s the people, I think it’s the people that make it. Ahh here she comes.
The nun comes into the shop, in her early forties, looking quite prim and proper.
Lady: Here she is! Taadaa!
Nun: Hello, it’s not nice out there. What can I do you for?
Lady: They’ve come to quiz us on pilgrimages.
Nun: Jolly good, what is it you would like to know?
Manager: Tell us what you are doing? You’re writing a paper or something?
Nun: Are you students?
Yes
Nun: Did I see some of you around yesterday? How long are you over here?
We’ll be here until the afternoon.
Nun: So what is it you would like to know?
Page 8 of 10
AN221 Dr. Fenella Cannell
25/03/2010
Transcript of Interviews
Chloe Evans
Just about the pilgrimage experience, what brings people here, what people feel
and what they want to get out of it.
Nun: Can I ask where you have been so far?
We went to the Roman Catholic Shrine, morning mass, mass yesterday evening
at the Anglican shrine. We went to visit the Abbey grounds.
Nun: Pilgrimage, if you think about it is quite a big subject really because, some
people think that pilgrimage might be a single journey for them, but pilgrimage is
something that we start from the day that we are born. So we have the pilgrimage of
life and the geographical pilgrimage. So people tend to come on pilgrimage, it started
a long long time ago when Christians were trying to get back to Poland that was one
of the major pilgrimages in medieval times. And people were trying to get back to
their homeland and travelling was difficult. They decided that places nearer home
were easier to get to, so instead of going one thousands miles we’ll go a couple of
hundred miles. People who were sick tended to visit these places to be healed, and
Walsingham was one of these places that sprouted in 1061. And so people came to
these places to be healed.
If you look at the broader sense of the pilgrimage of life, is that all of us, it doesn’t
matter who we are, where we’re from, what we do we are on the pilgrimage of life.
And pilgrimage is a journey, you’ll go through various different phases of life, you
are going through a phase right now. You’re having a learning curve, shall we say.
Experiencing things in different ways and for some people they could wander through
life quite aimlessly. Um, maybe they are trying to get the best T.V. a big screen, cool
as they may be; it’s not be all and end all. And people kind of get cocooned in their
own little worlds of what matters to them. “I’m number one, I’m the most important”.
But having a wider experience of life, a deeper sense of life a lot of people like
ourselves, I suspect, we realise that there is something bigger than us. There is more
to life than what we see, there is an unseen world as well. Its our…we look for
perfection, we look for perfection in ourselves and that’s a tough call. It’s easier to
look for perfection in ourselves than it is in other people. But perfection is God, at the
end of the day. And that’s where a lot of us get our love. From my understanding I
have reached a stage in my life where I have decided that it’s going to take the rest of
my life to get there. I am not going to be the perfect being. None of us are. Which,
from a Christian point of view we kind of look at it as we know we are going to make
mistakes and all that kind of stuff, but we know that there is a compassionate God
who loves us even though we have done things. Because I do it all the time, trust me,
I might look holy and all that but I’m just as stupid as the rest of you, I fall over too.
Laughter.
But I like to dust myself off, and in a sense currently in Christian time of Lent, season
of Lent, rather, that in itself is a journey from where we have started off, where we
said that we are going to do so many good things, we are going to go on days where
we repent, etc, etc, etc. And yes, it is a good thing. That in itself is a journey. You
feel maybe sort of sad, repentant, dirty, horrible, all those sort of negative things at the
beginning of Lent. And that journey, that pilgrimage through Lent, you get to the time
of Easter where Christ rises from the dead, and the glorious sunshine, beauty, not rain
like this! It won’t rain in heaven, that’s an assumption on my part. But, yeah
Page 9 of 10
AN221 Dr. Fenella Cannell
25/03/2010
Transcript of Interviews
Chloe Evans
pilgrimage is really about journeying, being a journey. And there are various different
starting points. It’s not just about this moment, it’s throughout our lives. So, at the end
of the day, whoever we are whatever we are we get embraced by this love. That’s
what we’ve got to focus on. That’s what we’ve got to focus on. Please God that I’ll
get there! Any clearer? Any questions?
The Sister here, yesterday was speaking about miracles and healing?
Nun: Miracles…I can’t say that I have actually seen any miracles in Walsingham. Um
I am aware of people experiencing them. I have spoken to somebody who has been a
result of a miracle and a lady who still comes here. She was involved in a serious
accident and was brain damaged and her family decided that the only thing that was
going to make any difference was prayer. So they literally prayed to Our Lady of
Walsingham and someone came to receive the waters for her, the sprinkling of the
waters, and they offered her name up, they opened their heart and their prayers. And
at the same time as those prayers and the waters being received this lady was healed.
Brain damage gone. There are various, various different stories.
I can say that I have been to another shrine and witnessed a miracle which I dare say
Science will differ in to rationalise. I went to a place in Meteorologia where there are
visionaries who are currently seeing Our Lady and send messages to the world of
‘please pray’ and peace and love for everybody. And one of the things that happened
was that she appears to the visionaries and a lot of people see the spinning, the
miracle of the sun spinning. The sun literally spins, and it sends out beautiful colours.
We see colours of nature and things like that, but these, they are a little bit special,
you can’t say oh that’s a pink, black or rose, there’s something ethereal about it.
Something…just…I’m going to say heavenly because there is no other way to
describe. And I saw some of that myself. And one of my sisters had seen it before and
told me about it and I thought “I ain’t ever going to see that!” You know, I didn’t
disbelieve her, but I thought that “there’s no way I’m going to see that!”
But there I was looking directly into the sun without being blinded. I was seeing the
sun spin. Meteorologia has got quite a lot of strong sun, it wasn’t midday sun, I’ll give
you that but its powerful sun. We’re told that “Don’t look at the sun because you are
going to go blind!” And ten minutes looking into the sun and I can see you. And I
have been to the opticians and I need reading glasses but I can see. The eye is fine, the
retina is fine. There was a woman sitting next to me and I looked around and she
turned to me and said “Is it me or am I seeing this?” And I replied “No no I think you
are seeing this”. And it was almost like, you know when you stand in sunshine and its
clear light, the sunshine had turned into a rainbow effect. Pinks, blues, mauves, we
were surrounded, its like you know when we say we look through rose coloured
glasses, well without wearing glasses you can see it. And we were bathed…we were
bathed in the light…and it was just…wonderful. And, you know, yes you’ll probably
get a cynical scientist saying, “Yeah, yeah, yeah, well that was just something to do
with the outer atmosphere…bla bla bla bla…” Fine, O.K. maybe it is so, but
something caused it. And it only happens in Meteorologia, not anywhere else in the
world. O.K….
Page 10 of 10