Date of Meeting
1 November 2013
Group Name
Lincolnshire
Chair: HMRC Lead
Helen Jepson (HJ) Local Compliance (LC)
HMRC Coordinator
Cora Morley (CM) Business Customer & Strategy (BC& S)
Agent Representatives attending
Christine Newitt (CN) Duncan Toplis
Mark Poplett (MP) ICAEW Streets
Ella Watts (EW) ACCA Ela Watts Accounting
Barbara Harewood (BH) CIOT ATT Barbara Harewood Ltd
Chris Rooke AAT
Sally Dunlop (SD) Dunlop Accountancy Services
Marion Hayes (MH) Marion Hayes Taxation Services
HMRC attendees
1
Apologies: Ian Smith
2
Minutes & Action Points
None
Minutes agreed. Action points completed.
AP4: CM advised progress re legality of digital signature on statutory documents.
3
Update on all issues closed Issues (page 7)
CM advised two additional closed item WT150 & WT209. CM will include update with minutes. AP1
4
Extract from shared workspace Open Issues Register
Circulated with draft agenda & will be discussed at meeting if flagged in advance. CM advised that
this has been recognised by agents Issues Overview Group (IOG) & enhanced information provided.
BH raised a concern that since the NWT Steering Group has been shelved following the Joint
Initiative on Service delivery the perception within the profession is that WT issues resolution has
been marginalised. CM assured that NWTT are working with JISD to identify the major issues to take
forward and challenging business areas around other systemic failures. General concerns were
expressed that the IOG do not meet face to face but via teleconference which group thought was
“soft” option and had limited impact.
5
Update on Group’s existing unresolved issues (Pages: 5 - 6).
CM advised further updates to WT50 & WT188 will be included with minutes. AP2
WT042 Debt Management & Banking (DMB) Update
CM advised that following feedback from agents through WT HMRC has recently introduced new Helplines
and published revised information about its debt collection procedures including:
New safeguards for debt collection visits
CM referred to field force help sheet which will be given to debtor at start of visit. It explains the reason for
the visit, what will happen, how to verify identity and rights
What to expect when we visit you (version for England, N Ireland and Wales
~ New Helplines for those who get a visit from an HMRC Field Force officer and want to verify his/her
identity.
~ A hotline for use by agents when figures are disputed to resolve facts quickly (expected 30 mins max).
The number will not be published but will be given to the taxpayer during the visit. The onus will be on the
agent to respond so it will be important for clients to tell the HMRC collector that an agent is acting, and to
get in touch with their agent right away.
~ Guidance for agents on time to pay and how it works
CM also referred agents to Distraint Help sheet
CM added that field force officers are in process of upgrading portable IT to enable them to view additional
information.
CM advised that Ministry of Justice has introduced new legislation “Taking Control of Goods Act” to
standardise process. From April 2014 HMRC will charge set fees whenever enforcement action is taken
(Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act (TCEA) 2007). Once guidance is finalised CM will pass to group.
BH raised concerns regarding this. CM advised that this is policy and not appropriate for LWT.
6
Key messages
6.1 CM advised that a member of the taskforce team is planning to attend the next meeting.
6.2 Tax Agent Strategy
CM provided update. After careful consideration the planned second consultation has been deferred
as sufficient information is held to take the next steps. We will continue to hold workshops and meet
with agents to discuss the strategy and how it will affect agents in practice. Our aim is to deliver the
first changes in 2014/15 which will provide a platform for additional digital services. User testing is
currently underway.
HMRC's 'Agent and Client Statistics' (A&CS)
CM advised that the next pilot, looking at CIS repayments, has started. This involves Agent Support
Officers (Agent Account Manager’s) approaching just over 800 selected agents to offer support and
guidance on the completion of CIS returns. It is intended to test the impact of educational interventions and
should not be confused with the compliance activity which concentrates on High Volume Agents who pose
the highest CIS client risks. HMRC aims to use A&CS as part of the risk management processes. It will
help to develop a picture of how the best agents work and enable the provision of better support to agents
whose clients’ compliance may need to be improved.
A short summary of the evaluation of the first A&CS pilot has been published on the HMRC website
General group discussion about HMRC risk selection process. CM stressed that this is pilot activity to test
and inform process. Selection does not necessarily indicate poor performance. There may be very good
reasons why they are falling outside the “norm”.
HJ advised that various indicators can be used. HMRC are in process of introducing prompts on online
returns to check accuracy and reduce errors.
MH observed that it would be useful to reintroduce the business notes that provided guidance by
trade/profession of expected ratio of expenses to turnover etc.
CM will pass on observation and recommended that this should be raised through professional
bodies.
CM advised that Agent Strategy will be a standing agenda item for future WT meetings & that a
presentation has been added to the AAM speaker request.
Request HMRC speakers for agent events and meetings
6.3 Agent Update 37
CM noted that this contained information on Agent Strategy; RTI; new HMRC telephone numbers; SA;
Toolkits. Pages 10 ~ 14 cover WT including overview of the Issues Overview Group (IOG); DMB; ESC19;
CIS;
6.4 Employer Bulletin Issue 45
CM said that latest edition published 23 September contains updates on RTI; Universal Credit which is due
to be rolled out from October 2013; employer pilot to test new PAYE online service; from October
cancellation of PAYE schemes that have had no activity; discontinuing the issue of Age Exemption
Certificates.
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6.5 Agent Update 38
CM directed agents to the Single Compliance Process briefing paper.
It was agreed that CM would try to get representative from Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR) to attend
a meeting.
HMRC system failing to pick up partnership cessation & issuing a return. If this occurs contact HMRC &
advise that a return has been incorrectly issued. HMRC will then take steps to update the record.
7
New Issues
7.1 Is there a set policy when HM Revenue & Customs ring us? Just had a phone call and when I ask the
gentlemen to answer our security questions he said he could not tell us anything - until after we answered
his security questions – pointed out that he knew who he was ringing – and if we rang HM Revenue &
Customs we have to answer their security questions. He refused to answer & the only number he could
give me was a generic number. When asked what reference to quote when I rang HMRC he gave me the
PAYE reference of my client – which would have been my security question - so I did speak to him.
Initially when I said as he could not identify himself I could not speak to him and he would need to put his
query in writing even if it was only to tell us who and when they would be ringing us he said he could not do
that.
Still a very one sided situation – we our bound by data protection the same as HM Revenue & Customs and
cannot discuss any matters about our client unless we can identify the caller in the same way as HM
Revenue & Customs expect us to identify ourselves.
This situation needs to be improved – also if we are to ring them back we need to know our calls will be
answered very quickly – last week one call I tried to make had a 17 minute waiting time – so I gave up and
wrote to HM Revenue & Customs instead. From SD & CR
Agents observed that this is not a problem with Companies House (CH). CM advised that HMRC staff are
bound by stringent security rules. Calls may be monitored and breech of security is a disciplinary offence
which can lead to dismissal. HJ confirmed and added that HMRC cannot comment on CH however there
will be differences as their information is generally in the public domain.
Agents said that there is not a consistent approach.
CM said that standard security process had been agreed to establish identity of caller. CM will include with
minutes. Useful HMRC Contact Information Oct 2013.
PMN: CM checked and confirms that the verification process for calls from HMRC is current.
MH advised that the process used by Tax Help is very good. Representatives are given a personal PIN
then access is similar to online banking i.e. what is 1st; 4th;7th digit
7.2 Accountants have started to get demands (addressed to the companies) for PAYE for periods post
05/04/2013. Some of the companies have long been struck off or the schemes of dormant companies which
have not been active for over 5 years. I though HM Revenue & Customs said they were closing down the
PAYE schemes where they had not been used for a long time. Trying to get through to Debt Management is
a nightmare so it involves writing a letter explaining situation etc. Why is this happening? From SD
CM will investigate and asked agent to provide examples.
7.3 An update from HMRC in relation to Limited Company CIS refunds and whether any progress has been
made to change the way these are dealt with. From CR (WT188 p4 refers).
CM referred to update. CM had indicated that CR may be interested in attending workshop subject to travel
& availability. CR confirmed interest. One of the concerns is that the forms are stockpiled on receipt and
due to delays it may be months before missing returns are identified. Agents would like online option and
scanning to be introduced to provide audit trail.
7.4 What action is being taken to clear the backlog of 250,000 forms which have not yet been filed on the HMRC
system since 31 March 2013 despite having been submitted by the taxpayer or the agent? The figure was
given to me yesterday (8 October) by a HMRC representative who answered my telephone query
concerning a penalty issued to my client for non submission of the March and June 2013 returns both of
which had been filed using the HMRC paper form attached to which is a payslip, and the cheques have been
cashed. To make matters worse when I received the penalty notice in July for the June return I telephoned
HMRC and advised them that the form and payment had been submitted and I was asked to send a
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photocopy of the form to clear the penalty. As of yesterday I am advised that the June penalty was still on
record. From CN
CM was not aware of the issue. CM advised that the case should be passed for AAM issues resolution but
cautioned that AAM chase up & report progress but cannot queue jump. CM will also do some investigation.
7.5 CR had issue where 64-8 has reverted back to old aggress. CM would be interested in this as there are
some issues cropping up including authorities dropping off system. CM asked agents to provide examples
to support issue.
7.6 Problems continue with contacting EHL. There are long delays. Agents/payroll professionals need a direct
route to dedicated technical support.
7.7 MH said that CT technical support does not always return call in agreed time. No one takes responsibility
for the case. In cases where additional information is required from agent it would help if call could be
booked at time rather than having to start process. Some cases can be protracted and the process is very
unwieldy. MH had experienced problems with a particular case. CM advised specific issues should be
passed through to AAM. SD also suggested using complaints route. HJ advised that all complaints are
looked at and any problems identified will be looked at and, where possible, addressed.
7.8 – MH had issue where HMRC had determined under Reg72 that PAYE error/underdeduction was payable by
pension provider, not taxpayer. Their response was to deduct from current pension without calling it tax on
the payslips. MH recalled a specific regulation which prevented a PAYE operator deducting tax from earlier
years in this way but has been unable to find. HJ will investigate and provide CM with update to pass to
group.
PMN: It is the employer’s responsibility to operate the correct tax code – this is covered by Regulation 8 &
21 of the Income Tax (PAYE Regulations) 2003. http://home.active.hmrci/cogmanual/COG903520.htm
CM to investigate further and will share response with group. AP5
Date of Next Meeting
Provisonal dates (awaiting room confirmation)
Friday 7 March 2014 & Friday 18 July 2014
Lawress Hall Lincoln
Summary of Action Points
AP1: CM to update closed issues
AP2: CM to add additional updates to working issues
AP3: CM to investigate Money Laundering
AP4: Agents to pass examples for follow up
AP5: CM to investigate PYE Reg 72
Summary of hyperlinks
New safeguards for debt collection visits
What to expect when we visit you (version for England, N Ireland and Wales
Distraint Help sheet
Tax Agent Strategy
HMRC's 'Agent and Client Statistics'
High Volume Agents
Summary of the evaluation
Request HMRC speakers for agent events and meetings
Agent Update 37
Employer Bulletin Issue 45
Agent Update 38
Single Compliance Process.
Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR)
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Useful HMRC Contact Information Oct 2013.
http://home.active.hmrci/cogmanual/COG903520.htm
Agenda item 5: Update on Group’s existing unresolved issues
WT029 R40 process (JISD)
Various issues have been identified relating to the R40 repayment process including backlogs, lack of e version,
lack of copy calculations, requests for additional evidence, treatment of earlier years' underpayments, use of
cheques rather than BACS process and 64-8 problems
Update 25/10/13: The R40 pilot was discussed at the JISG meeting on the 23 October and an update will be
included in the joint statement which will be published shortly
Update 09/10/13: An update on the R40 pilot will be published in AU38 and following the JISG in late October.
WT042 DMB Campaigns (CT & other) (JISD)
1. Debts are being chased without proper checks and records are not up to date leading to problems between
clients and agents when debts are incorrectly pursued. In some cases the letters go to the agent (where their
address is the company RO) but in others they go direct to client company.
2. In addition the tone of the letters which use the IDMS99 template is considered inappropriate.
3. Difficulties in getting through on tel no quoted in Campaign letters, delays in delivery, lack of understanding of
issues by staff taking calls especially assumption that coys who have agents acting for them would be aware of
amounts due in the absence of payslips.
Update 28/10/13: Following the JISD Steering Group meeting on 23 Oct a joint statement is to be published
which will include an update on DMB activities
Update 02/09/13: Work with DMB and agents on these aspects is continuing and a further update is expected in
the autumn.
WT050 P11D Expenses and S336 claims
Inconsistent treatment of reimbursed expenses reported on P11D returns - expenses included in coding when
S336 claim in place and inconsistency in practices by HMRC to rectify position.
 reimbursed expenses being coded even when covered by s336 adjustment
 reimbursed expenses being coded without taking into account theS336 claim
 allowances for expenses being given but the reimbursement ignored
 no correlation between actual figures for reimbursed expenses and the amounts allowed.
When agents contact the ADL to get the errors rectified they are told that only cases involving less than £1000
can be dealt with over the phone.
Update 09/10/13: NWTT has escalated this issue in order to try and push forward service improvements in respect of the
P11D and S336 process.
Update 05/09/13: The business have advised that they still have the P11D and S336 process under
review. NWTT has stressed the need for service improvement in respect of the processing of P11D and
associated S336 claims. The feedback received via the local WT group agents is much appreciated and
continues to be passed to HMRC process owners for them to consider service improvements.
Update 18/07/13: HMRC is aware that Employers/payroll agents who have been unable to submit forms P11D,
P11D(b) and P9D due to problems with the new online service and have posted a message on the HMRC
What's New page - Agents now have until 4 August and details of reasonable excuse are outlined in the What's
New message. WTCs should draw their WT agent group members’ attention to this message.
WT143 Incorrect Tax calculations for SA & R40 individuals
Tax calculations are being issued in advance of R40s and SA returns being received leading to repayments that
are incorrect being made. Not only is this creating additional work for agents and HMRC it is undermining
agent/client relationships.
Update 14/10/13: The business is carrying out a data gathering exercise to understand the impact of this
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problem.
Update 12/09/13: The business is working with the departmental IT provider to understand the potential IT
implications which will be fed into the problem solve.
Update: 26/07/13: The business area has contacted me highlighting that they will be in a position in the next two
weeks to give me an update on the problem solve
WT187 Inadequacy of CT helpline
Long waiting times, no warm handoffs. Client specific questions handed off to back office and subsequent
problems with call backs. Agents being told to write where previously d/w as business by telephone (BBT).
Update 28/10/13: Work continues on some top tips and details about what information is needed in writing.
Update 04/09/13: The guidance referred to is now in draft and we hope to publish it, initially, in the next Agent
Update 29/07/13: The review of call guidance is still ongoing and the business area apologises that the
guidance is not yet available - it is hoped to have it ready by early Sept. In addition consideration is being given
to producing some top tips relating to routine CT work. In the meantime the additional resource allocated has
meant response times have significantly improved. As to call backs the business has suggested that agents
look out for incoming calls from 0845 or 03000 numbers which are those used by offices making them. In due
course they will all be 03000 numbers but the migration is not yet complete.
WT188 Delay in issuing CIS Ltd Coy EOY repyts (JISD)
Long delays of many months are being experienced in receiving repyts even though P35s and claims are sent
timeously.
Update 24/10/13: Please see below lines on the current position on the processing of CIS repayments.
We have cleared all repayment claims up to and including the 9th September, unless we have written to the
employer and are awaiting further information to progress the repayment. We have deployed additional
resources to process these cases and are scheduled to clear them by the end of October.
We are working with agents through the Joint Initiative on Service Delivery (JISD) to use customer insight to
make improvements on the process, and will be reviewing this with them at a workshop in November
Update 9/10/13: An Update on the CIS repayment activity will be in AU38. We are also planning to hold a
further workshop in late November to review this years CIS repayments cycle.
Update 22/07/13: Following the workshop top tips has been produced and is being circulated to all of our agent
stakeholders on Wednesday 24 July 2013
Work in Progress (WIP)
1. We registered to do our clients VAT online before we as a business were VAT registered.
We have noticed that the authorisation codes sent to our client refer to us as trading from our old address.
Some clients have never traded with us from that address so they find it very strange and it looks extremely
unprofessional. Also, I am concerned that post could go undelivered as and when my redirection expires.
Have spoken to online services for VAT who tell us it is impossible for them to change our contact details on this
section of their computer system and if I phone then I have to quote my old address.
The only advice they can offer is to reregister for the service under a new Agent reference (so we would have to
log in separately for VAT to other services) and then reauthorise all our clients.
Surely HM Revenue & Customs should be able to hold correct info on agents. When we log into our account our
agent details are shown with the correct address, the wrong address is held deeper in the system. SD
1/07/13: Referred to business area
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Agenda Item 3 Issues closed since last meeting
Agenda Item 3: Digest of closed issues July 2013 – October 2013
HMRC online services not
The discrepancy between the HMRC validation service and the Govt Gateway arises because the HMRC
23/07/13
WT200
updated to reflect BST but
validation service which returns the online acknowledgement uses BST, whereas the Govt Gateway doesn’t.
Therefore any acknowledgement the Gateway provides to the 3rd party software will show GMT. As HMRC are
still showing GMT
one of many customers who use the Gateway we are unable to change this. This is in fact how both the Gateway
and HMRC services have always functioned.
25/07/13
WT046
ADL service inconsistency
and incompleteness
The issue related specifically to coding change queries and Contact Centres have confirmed that they have
provided additional guidance to their advisers on how to deal with these queries.
26/07/13
WT146
Inaccurate SA auto-coding
The SA auto-coding article published on the HMRC website was highlighted in AU34. Feedback was requested
but none was received so on this basis the issue is closed.
`2/09/13
WT194
Verification of Field Force
collectors
New safeguards for debt collection visits have now been put in place. In addition, leaflets (different versions for
Scotland and the rest of the UK) have been published explaining what to expect during a Field Force visit. Later in
the year Collectors will benefit from the roll out of multi functional tablet devices, which will provide direct access to
debt management records, ensuring that the Collector has the history of a case prior to a call, and is able to record
in ‘real time’ the outcome of their visit. If problems continue to be experienced after this time please refer again.
4/09/13
WT178
P11D online submission
process
Guidance on EOY Expenses and Benefits forms has been published which includes a link to current service
issues. If it is found that this does not address the issue please refer again.
4/09/13
WT199
Incorrect treatment of
remuneration to date of
death
Those responsible for the PAYE regulations have reviewed the guidance in the CWG2. The guidance at page 12
is a direct reproduction of Regulation 38 (death of an employee) and Regulation 39 (death of a pensioner). On
this basis there does not appear to be a problem with either the CWG2 or other guidance. The references to the
EIM and to the legislation are the correct references.
It appears that the issue is the separation of the period to the date of death and the period from the date of death.
There may still be a liability to tax which arises in the period after the taxpayer has died, and which will be the
responsibility of the personal representative, but which refers to payments the taxpayer became entitled too prior
to their death. S18 ITEPA 2003 determines that the liability arises at the earliest of entitlement or payment
(forgetting for the purposes of this exercise the separate rules for directors). So a payment of earnings that the
taxpayer becomes entitled to prior to their death, but which is paid after their death is still chargeable in the period
to date of death. S13 advises that the liability on payments made in these circumstances will fall to the personal
representative. Clearly we cannot pursue a liability in this regard on the deceased. Regs 38 & 39 advise the
employer on how to calculate the liability, not who is responsible for payment.
28/10/13
WT150
There have been cases
where two different
authorisation codes have
been issued both with the
same expiry date. One code
works and the other doesn't.
Our IT partners have indicated that this issue is resolved. However should there be any further incidences please
refer again.
29/10/13
WT209
Several issues arise with the
RTI PAYE credit letter
rendering it prima facie unfit
for purpose.
The business area is grateful that this was brought to their attention and apologises that such an unclear letter has
been used. These letters were issued in error and amended guidance has been given to staff as to the revised
content. No such further letters should now be received.
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