Date of Meeting
2 November 2012
Group Name
Lincolnshire
Chair: HMRC Lead
Helen Jepson (HJ) Local Compliance (LC)
Agent Representatives attending
Matt Herd (MH) Duncan Toplis
Mark Poplett (MP) ICAEW Streets
Sally Dunlop (SD) Dunlop Accounting
Ella Watts (EW) ACCA Ela Watts Accounting
Chris Rooke (CR) AAT Chris Rooke Management Limited
HMRC attendees
Cora Morley (CM) Business Customer & Strategy (BC & S)
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Apologies: Barbara Harewood; Ian Smith;Christine Newitt
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Minutes & Action Points
Minutes agreed. Action points completed.
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Closed Issues
Post meeting note WT 175 New CT41G process/Registering new companies with HMRC (Closed 24
September 2012). HMRC registration cannot be done at the same time as company formation.
Companies House is not routinely telling HMRC about new coys and/or clients losing forms and
agents not able to use HMRC website without coy ref.
24/09/12: To help raise awareness of the change to the CT41G process, an article has been
published in Agent Update 31 which links to the HMRC published guidance for agents and
companies about using the online registration process. It is our intention to include reference to the
guidance in Agent Update 32
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Update on Group’s existing unresolved issues
Details issued with final agenda.
SD advised recent problem with coding & interaction between NPS & SA. NPS system is ignoring
request on SATR not to code rental income. SD had waited 45 days only to have request rejected.
EW had similar experience.
CM advised that all coding issues are working under Joint Initiative on HMRC service delivery (JISD).
Returns need two boxes completing to avoid coding i.e. finishing your tax return Box 2 & Box 3.
CM advised that agents should consider submitting to AAM resolution service as she was not aware
of any reason that agents request could be met provided all criteria are fulfilled. Agents believed that
it was related to HMRC action to remove cases from SA.
CR raised issue of CIS repayments (new issue 7.2). The previous resolution is far from satisfactory.
Yet again unacceptable waiting times are being experienced. The help sheet is at best misleading
indicating the claims are worked within 15 days except at busy periods however delays of months
are being suffered. Consideration should be given to an accelerated process ideally instant direct
repayments of any undisputed sums. These delays are indefensible especially in current economic
climate. HMRC know that work will peak & need to ensure staff is in place to deal with demand.
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Extract from shared workspace Open Issues Register
Issued with agenda
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Key messages
6.1 Real Time Information (RTI)
CM gave update of pilot and points to consider.
October 2012 HMRC will write to all employers not in pilot telling them how to prepare. Letters will
go to business address only as the statutory obligation to ensure payroll is operated correctly lies
with the business. Agents will not get copies.
November 2012 HMRC will close any schemes that have stopped operating PAYE. A letter will be
sent advising of closure & process to follow if scheme should be retained.
New schemes set up from November will start submitting in RTI immediately. They have option to
opt out.
February 2013 a follow up letter will be sent to employers, business address only, confirming when
they are expected to start real time submissions.
With a few exceptions all employers who operate PAYE schemes with less than 5,000 will start to
report in real time from April 2013.
FAQs for non-standard PAYE Schemes
In April 2013 HMRC will support DWP Universal Credit (UC) Pathfinder pilot to test the links between
RTI & UC system.
CM highlighted the limitations of HMRC Basic Tools. Currently the P11 calculator can be used to file
an EOY return where there are more than nine employees during the year but only nine or fewer
employees at the end of the tax year. When reporting PAYE in RTI the tools limit is no more than
nine employees at any time of the year.
If the criteria is not met then alternative software will be needed to report PAYE information in RTI for
2013-2014. This will also apply where employers use the tools to collect payroll data and pass to an
agent to complete the end of year online submission.
Payroll professionals and employers FAQs
Guidance for using Basic PAYE Tools to complete 2012-13 End of Year Return
Agents raised concerns about:
i. the communication to small employers but no agent copies in particular when HMRC propose
closing schemes.
ii. the lack of support available
iii. additional costs for small business
iv. Penalties. CM advised that consultation closed 24 September. There may be an announcement
at the time of the Autumn statement. Expectations are that there will be a soft landing but nothing is
known as yet.
v. workarounds for “special cases” e.g. publicans CM advised agents that under consultation & to
watch for announcements. PMN: Timing of real time PAYE returns
CM outlined need for correct data and drew attention to main areas for error. Agents had some
concerns about the alignment process & suggested any guidance must be very clear.
Getting your payroll right employee information
CM will include in minutes a summary sheet with live links. (page 6)
CM will retain RTI as standing agenda item. AP1
6.2 Agent Strategy
CM gave update on agent strategy. The AAMs are actively involved in agent strategy & in particular
the agent view pilot.
Pilot of HMRC's 'agent view'
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6.3 Joint initiative on HMRC service delivery
CM gave update on Joint Initiative on HMRC service delivery (JISD) (formerly JUAP).
August 2012 Update
6.4 External email pilot
CM gave update on the email pilot which has been extended; agents are now able to submit a
scanned signed 64-8 and we are planning to expand again to include SA1/ CWF1 and partnership
returns. CM advised anyone interested can volunteer through webpage.
6.5 HMRC website - Gov.uk
CM informed group of the launch of Gov.uk on 17 October, initially replacing Business Link and
Directgov. For the time being however, HMRC’s website will continue to be the main source of
online support for tax agents. There will be no immediate changes to the HMRC’s online services
such as Self Assessment Online and PAYE Online. Government online
6.6 Agent publications
CM told agents that after consultation it has been decide to merge Agent Update & WT publication.
The issues raised and successes achieved will be published in Agent Update rather than a separate
Working Together publication.
6.7 Agent Account Managers (AAM)
There is a new e learning product on the HMRC site.
Tax agents and advisers: new learning modules launched
Agent groups can submit a speaker request for RTI presentation however evening events will be at
AAM discretion. MH advised that DT had already had the benefit of an AAM presentation on RTI.
Speaker Request Form
Agents who have registered for the AAM service have been sent an email highlighting useful
information of the HMRC website. CM outlined the information & will include copy with minutes.
121001 Hints and
Tips for registered agents (10).doc
6.8 Business Record Checks
HJ advised the new approach to BRC started on 1 November 2012. Customers who are more likely
to be at risk of having inadequate records will be contacted by letter to arrange an telephone
appointment to complete a short questionnaire. Depending on the outcome HMRC will confirm to
some customers that no further action is required, or, where some issues are identified, customers
will be offered targeted self-help education options. Customers who are assessed as being at risk of
keeping inadequate records will be referred for a BRC visit.
EW expressed concerns that agents are being marginalised. HJ said that this is not intention.
Whilst it is not essential clients will be able to invite agents to attend the visit. It is very early days and
primarily education led. The premise is to give business the tools to ensure they get it right first time.
SD wondered if HMRC will be targeting specific types of business. Agents wondered what criteria
would be used for assessing the risk.
HJ advised that HMRC do not provide risk profiles.
Agents asked about penalties.
HJ advised that penalties will apply. If records are inadequate there may be a record-keeping
penalty but there will be the opportunity to bring them to an adequate standard. HMRC will specify
what improvements need to be made, and will offer help and support to achieve this. HMRC will
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arrange a follow up visit to check that the necessary improvements have been made and, provided
the records are improved and adequate, the penalty will reduce to nil. Where the records have still
not improved a penalty will apply.
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New Issues
7.1 We have noted that when we change our passwords on the Government Gateway, all of our clients
are being re-linked to the assistant profiles. Is it possible to have a global change link? MH
AP: CM to submit as suggestion.
7.2 Company CIS repayments and why it still takes almost 6 months for repayments even after a paper
has been issued by HMRC stating 15 working days (even allowing for busy times the remains an
unreasonable length of time) CR
Issue discussed item 2 of the agenda. CR added that consideration should be given to rewording or
withdrawing the help sheet altogether as it is misleading in its current form. Agents need a realistic
timeframe. CR also suggested that the repayment process could be refined. Currently all PYE
employer related refunds are made by cheque. Process could be speeded up if direct payments in
to bank account.
7.3 Agent accounts managers and the usefulness of having such a link in view of the limited powers they
appear to have CR
CM stated that the AAMs act as intermediaries where agents are having problems and do not work
cases nor can they influence caseworker to queue jump etc. Issues resolution is only part of role of
AAM. Agents should take concerns through PBs.
7.4 The none use of specialists in specialist investigations/enquiries CR
CR outlined specific case where he had received a letter containing with seventy specific questions.
Case had had similar enquiry three years previously and satisfactorily cleared. CR spent some ten
hours formulating response only to find that the issuing officer had to pass to specialist to review etc.
and was not apparently aware of previous correspondence.
HJ apologised for the additional work and advised that officer should be aware of previous enquiry
etc but the necessary information may not be readily available. HJ explained the recording process
and indicated where problems may arise. The introduction of post scanning should eliminate this.
HJ gave brief overview of the new Caseflow Scanning System. Documents received in post will be
sent to a central team in Liverpool, scanned, and then linked to the relevant case. An automatic alert
will then notify the caseworker that ‘New Documents’ are available for a specific case. Scanned
documents can be viewed anywhere in the country without the need to transfer files. The benefits of
the new system are that all correspondence including faxes are sent to a central place and are
received by the caseworker electronically. It will reduce problems with missing or delayed post.
Unless a request to return original records or documents is received any documents not passed to
caseworkers will be destroyed after 90 days.
Caseflow Scanning
HJ also reminded agents that as well the risk based enquiries there is also a random selection which
must be followed up.
7.5 a) On form R43 there is a section for the payment to be made to a nominee. On attempting to get
Mrs X’s tax repayment paid into Mr X’s bank account I was told this is not possible. I was quoted
‘money laundering’ as the reason. Can HMRC elaborate on this, especially when it’s a husband and
wife situation and signed authority given?
b) Mrs X originally requested a cheque be sent to Mr X in Australia and we received a tax calculation
saying this had been done on 20 June 2012. After a couple of weeks the cheque had not arrived do
we asked HMRC to cancel the cheque and send it to Mr X’s bank account (which we later found out
not possible – as per point 1). In August Mr X received the original cheque from HMRC in Australia
which he mistakenly tried to bank on 21 August 2012. Obviously it then bounced and the client
incurred a $1,100 financial loss due to exchange rate differences/charges. Client wants to know why
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it took 2 months for HMRC post to reach Australia when they say post normally gets there in a week
or so. MP
CM was not aware of any reason why post would take this time and apologised for the delay. R43
notes state “If you want the repayment to be credited to a bank or building society account, the
account holder's name must be the same as the name of the person entitled to receive the
repayment”. MP should consider following complaints process.
Date of Next Meeting
Friday 8 March 2013
Friday 19 July 2013
Lawress Hall Lincoln
Summary of Action Points
AP1: CM to include RTI update on agenda of next meeting.
AP2: CM to submit suggestion re password changes on Government gateway.
Summary of hyperlinks
Agent Update 31
FAQs for non-standard PAYE Schemes
Payroll professionals and employers FAQs
Guidance for using Basic PAYE Tools to complete 2012-13 End of Year Return
Timing of real time PAYE returns
Getting your payroll right employee information
Agent Strategy
Pilot of HMRC's 'agent view'
Joint initiative on HMRC service delivery
August 2012 Update
External email pilot
Gov.uk
Government online
Agent Account Managers (AAM)
Tax agents and advisers: new learning modules launched
Speaker Request Form
Business Record Checks
Caseflow Scanning
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Pay As You Earn - Real Time Information
For an overview of Real Time Information together with links to more detailed information visit the
HMRC website at www.hmrc.gov.uk/rti/index.htm
Key Facts
 Most employers will be legally required to use RTI from April 2013 with all employers submitting RTI
before October 2013.
 The structure of Pay as You Earn (PAYE) remains unchanged, but the way in which you report
information to HMRC will fundamentally change.
 You will submit information about PAYE payments throughout the year as part of your payroll process,
rather than at the end of the year as you do now.
Data Quality
Three key areas account for over 80% of HMRC data quality issues:
 National Insurance Number (NINO)
- leave blank if you do not have the NINO
- do not use a default
- always use the NINO for the individual in question
- validate this with official document such as HMRC or DWP documentation.
 Full name
- do not use initials only
- enter forename and surname in separate fields
- check correct order of names
- enter double-barrelled names into one field
- always validate spelling with an official document such as a passport or driver’s licence.
 Date of birth
- enter the full date of birth in the correct format DD/MM/YYYY
- do not make one up
- do not enter a default date of birth.
Data Quality homepage: www.hmrc.gov.uk/rti/dip/index.htm
Help and support
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RTI homepage: www.hmrc.gov.uk/rti/index.htm
Guidance on operating PAYE in real time: www.hmrc.gov.uk/payerti/index.htm
FAQs for employers: www.hmrc.gov.uk/rti/employerfaqs.htm
Data Quality homepage: www.hmrc.gov.uk/rti/dip/index.htm
List of Data Items: www.hmrc.gov.uk/payerti/reporting/what-to-report.htm
Payroll Alignment: www.hmrc.gov.uk/softwaredevelopers/rti/payroll-alignment.pdf
Register for email alerts: www.hmrc.gov.uk/paye/forms-publications/register.htm
Payroll software that has PAYE recognition: www.hmrc.gov.uk/softwaredevelopers/paye/rtisoftware-forms.htm
 Welfare Reform & Universal Credit: www.dwp.gov.uk/policy/welfare-reform
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