Date of Meeting
9 March 2012
Group Name
Lincolnshire
Chair: HMRC Lead
Helen Jepson (HJ) Local Compliance (LC)
Agent Representatives attending
Christine Newitt (CN) ACCA Duncan Toplis
Chris Rooke (CR) AAT
Ian Smith (IS) ICAEW
Mark Poplett (MP)
Barbara Harewood (BH) CIOT ATT
Ella Watts (EW) ACCA
HMRC attendees
Cora Morley (CM) Business Customer & Strategy (BC & S)
1
Apologies: Sally Dunlop; Emma Craig West HMRC R & D
2
Minutes & Action Points
Minutes agreed. No APs.
3
Resolved Issues
Update issued with agenda.
WT135 – Stability of NT codes. Agents were concerned that recommended fix requires entering of
cessation date on the P14 which may have a knock on effect. AP1: CM to take fwd WT135
4
Update on Group’s existing unresolved issues
Summary issued with final agenda.
Group is still experiencing delays with repayments. CM advised current expected times for issuing
repayments including those selected for security checks. Agents enquired about triggers. HJ
advised these are not generally known. SA system is process now check later. Lists will be
produced especially if repayment requires manual intervention. Agents agreed that this caused
frustration for all. CM advised that this is an area identified by Joint Understanding Agents Project
(JUAP) & has a team working on speeding up the security check process. Additional enhancements
are being investigated. CM also recommended the use of the AAM issue resolution service for
individual cases that seem to have got stuck in the system.
5
Extract from shared workspace Open Issues Register - issued with agenda
6
Key messages
WT Minutes
CM advised the position re publication of WT minutes (minutes 11 Oct 2011)
HMRC do not plan to publish local WT minutes. Each group has to discuss & agree a protocol.
Agent reps had no problem with attributable comments in principle.
Agent advised that they need to share minutes as agent WT reps do not have time to extract & pass
on information & messages from HMRC. Group had obligation to disseminate information to
members.
Group agreed that draft minutes would be circulated. Minutes would be agreed. CM will then
protect and pass to group with confirmation that final agreed minutes.
Research & Development (R & D) Relief for CT
R&D
CM apologised that the representative from R & D was unable to attend. CM gave brief overview
based on notes of Cambridge meeting 14 February 2012. (Cambridge R & D unit head attended).
There are seven specialist units & their heads meet regularly to maintain consistent approach to
claims handling.
The Voluntary Advance Assurance Pilot (VAAP) had come out of consultation. 30+ new/start up
SMEs volunteered to join scheme. Each SME is allocated an R & D officer who explains what
constitutes a qualifying project & advises how to set up record system. The officer then assists with
the first & subsequent two claims. The pilot is now closed & due to report in September 2012.
CM advised that R & D units can provide speakers for seminars & are available to provide advice.
CM distributed an information & contact leaflet.
One Click
‘One Click’ is the collective name for a number of projects supporting Digital by Default
Its aim is to improve the service HMRC gives to the business community. It is primarily focused on
SME customers, making it easier for them to interact with HMRC and Business Link.
‘One Click’ will deliver enhanced online services for SMEs and facilitate self service for the willing
and able.
The ‘One Click’ projects are:
 My New Business (MNB)
 Online Tax Registration Service (OTRS)
 Business Tax Dashboard (BTD)
 VAT Registration Transformation (VRT).
The projects will ‘go live’ between October 2011 and the end of 2012.
Due to IT problems presentation to be made at later meeting.
AP2: One Click for later meeting
Joint Initiative on HMRC Service Delivery (formerly JUAP)
CM gave overview of Joint Understanding Agents Project (JUAP).
HMRC staff had visited agents to understand how agents work & talk about the good/bad aspects of
working with HMRC & mapped customer journeys. Agents & HMRC objectives are broadly similar
Found that the majority of online transactions are successful. Most of the issues were already
known to HMRC e.g. 64-8; bereavement.
HMRC then invited agents to return visit to see how HMRC work. One of participating offices was
Saxon House in Leics. Leics are responsible for processing 80% of SA paper returns. Agents were
impressed that the process was structured & coherent & the staff knowledgeable & engaged. HMRC
received positive feedback & suggestions from agents. This was reported to the project & used to
improve processes.
AP3: CM will continue to update on JUAP.
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Real Time Information (RTI)
CM gave update. The pilot goes live in April 2012. There is information in latest Employer Bulletin.
Employer Bulletin 40 Feb 2012
Agents anticipate problems.
Agents suggested a comprehensive Q & A is included on the web.
CM advised that AAM will be including RTI in their library of presentations. Registered agents can
request speaker. CM will include as standing agenda item of future meetings.
AP4: RTI on next agenda
PAYE RTI
SA Late filing penalties.
CM that flyers would be issued with reminders for SA returns.
SA Return Flyer
Agent Account Managers (AAM) Service
AAM Service
CM gave update.
P35 Nil returns
CM advised that following the problems last year anyone using the structured email to advise nil
return will receive confirmation email when actioned.
Additional information Employer Bulletin 40 page 8.
Employer Bulletin 40 Feb 2012
Alternative Dispute Resolution
HJ advised trial has been extended. Cases are reviewed by independent staff who look at the facts
to facilitate a mutually acceptable conclusion. Cases are often resolved via telephone. Positive
feedback has been received.
Alternative Disputes Resolution
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New Issues
 Can HMRC give greater publicity to the fact that new businesses have to pay 1.5 times the tax for
the first year of trading? This is always a problem for start-up businesses, and we are likely to have
more of them in the current climate. BH
AP5: CM to put forward as suggestion
 I and other accountants/tax advisers have had problems with occasionally missing the opt-out on
Page TR5, so that the tax is NOT coded out, also the box ensuring that other income is not coded
out in the following year. When attempting to amend the tax return, to correct the situation, it had no
effect. It would be helpful to have a bit more background to the automated coding and when it
happens – is that possible? BH
CM gave overview of autocoding.
SA automatic coding from tax return
The information from the SA return will flow across to autocoding once fully submitted/captured. CM
advised process & that agents may not be able to make amendments until the return has passed to
our back systems.
AP6: CM to investigate.
 I’ve been told of a case which in part involves the collection of PAYE/NI and it’s interaction with
collection of other taxes (CT & VAT). From what I understand the company was paying tax to
HMRC but it was being allocated as a credit on the CT account rather than against the PAYE or VAT
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liabilities. Consequently they’ve received significant late payment surcharges and interest on the
PAYE/VAT side but then had a CT refund. Are HMRC’s systems not integrated to enable them to
allocate the payments made to the liabilities owed automatically rather than building up a surplus on
one and leaving another outstanding (and then applying penalties to that)? MP
HJ confirmed that there is not one integrated system. CM advised that it is vital that correct payment
details are used to eliminate incorrect allocation.
How to Pay
 Income tax repayments – there’s been a few cases where repayments arising from the 2011 tax
returns have not been refunded nor are they showing as pending on HMRC online. So we have to
call up and request them. MP
CM advised that this may be due to “no repayment” signal being set then overlooked once
transaction completed e.g. where agent request a reallocation of payment. Any persistent problems
should be referred to AAM for issues resolution.
 Claims for overpayment relief – since the new rules it’s become a longer process to make a
change to a tax return outside the repair window when it’s in the client’s favour as we now have to do
the amendment then complete a claim, then get the client to sign and return it, then forward it to
HMRC with explanation. We preferred just sending in amended pages (like we still can if it’s an error
or mistake in HMRC’s favour). Having a template/form available online might be useful; is this
something HMRC can do? MP
AP7: CM to put forward as suggestion/issue
 64-8 – in cases where we’ve sent in the 64-8 but HMRC records don’t show it as being received,
why is a faxed copy not allowed? Particularly if it’s January! MP
CM advised that the 64-8 process is being reviewed to look at some interim improvements in
advance of the agent strategy proposals.
 Had a client who has had a letter from PAYE/Self Assessment threatening legal action and to
contact them urgently. Client has tried numerous times to get thought but constantly put on hold.
ADL advise the normal wait time to get through on 0845 300 0627 is 30 mins. When you are being
threatened by HM Revenue & Customs with court action it is totally wrong that it is so difficult to get
through to talk to someone. This issue has been raised before and yet the situation never seems to
improve. SD
CM had responded to SD. Tel number quoted is for general tax enquires, The Self Assessment
Payment Helpline is 0845 366 1204.
Problems paying HMRC
AOB
BH welcomed the ability to view codes however agents would like to receive email alert when new
postings.
Date of Next Meeting
Friday 27 July 2012
Friday 2 November 2012
Summary of Action Points
AP1: CM to take fwd WT135
AP2: One Click for later meeting
AP3: CM will continue to update on JUAP.
AP4: RTI on next agenda
AP5: CM to put forward as suggestion highlighting 1.5 payments for new business
AP6: CM to investigate SA autocoding & return amendments
AP7: CM to put forward as suggestion/issue online overpayment relief claim
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Summary of hyperlinks
R&D
Digital by Default
Employer Bulletin 40 Feb 2012
PAYE RTI
SA Return Flyer
AAM Service
Alternative Disputes Resolution
SA automatic coding from tax return
How to Pay
Problems paying HMRC
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Agenda Item 3: Digest of resolved issues October 2011 to February 2012
14/10/11
WT135
Stability of NT codes
Where and employment record is held and code NT has been issued, code NT will be carried forward at
the Annual Coding review, it should not be replaced with a calculated or 'proper' tax code. Currently at
Annual Coding where NT is carried forward a manual review by staff is triggered; this allows our staff to
review the NT code carried forward, and ensure the code is correct. This is set to change from April 2012
where provided a valid reason for the NT code has been recorded on our records, there should be no
requirement to review the tax code, therefore NT tax code will be issued automatically without any manual
review. An issue has been identified previously, following the Annual Coding review in 2010, where if an
employment record is not held for an individual where code NT has been previously agreed, where a P14
for employment has been received by us an employment record will automatically be created and as no
code is held on record, a tax code would at this point be calculated and issued. Unfortunately if there is no
employment record and therefore no tax code on the record, it would not be possible to identify and flag
these cases up for manual review. Our current suggested solution to this problem is to advise employers
who are required to submit a P14 for NIC reporting purposes to enter a date of leaving for the end of the
tax year (5 April of that year), therefore going forward an employment record will not be created and an
automatic tax code will not be issued. We are aware that the above solution/workaround requires
employers to take additional action, regarding the entering of the cessation date on the P14, however we
feel this is currently the best possible solution. Moving forward we are also considering this issue with
regards to 'Real Time Information' and how we can make best use of the information we receive from
employers.
3/11/11
WT120
Availability of post boxes for hand
delivered mail
Business areas will consider mailbox facilities on a building by building basis. e.g. the reception in
Imperial House, Grimsby will be fitted with a secure mailbox in time for 31/10 paper filing deadline.
14/11/11
WT121
Non delivery of Royal Mail secure
delivery post
There is a published process for staff to follow. Examples were requested to enable us to track this
process but none have been received. Should any be forthcoming the issue will be reopened.
6/01/12
WT144
Incorrect P35 penalty notices
HMRC apologises for the errors in dealing with some of the no P35 to make declarations sent by email
and thanks LWT for bringing the issue to our attention. Arrangements have been put in place to reduce
any additional work for the agent or employer to a minimum. Where they call the Employer help line they
are advised that there is no need for an appeal to be made. Such cases are referred to the Employer
Office for review and cancellation of the penalty where appropriate. Where the agent or employer has
written to the Employer Office to appeal, then their enquiry will be dealt with in the normal way to include
stopping recovery of the penalty until the appeal is settled.
18/01/12
WT114
Coding underpayments from SA
return
The SA system allows for requests to be made that underpayments be collected through PAYE. What is
not made clear is that there are certain parameters in place which do not always allow this treatment.
Taxpayers who are under the impression that this treatment will apply are then shocked to belatedly
receive a demand for the full amount of the underpayment.
The business area has advised that steps have been taken to avoid a repetition of this situation for
2010/11 returns and on this basis the issue has been closed. However please refer again should it
become apparent that the problem recurs.
16/02/12
WT141
Uncleared payments on SA
statements
This issue relates to cases where a SA repayment is due but the customer has made a payment.
We cannot repay until 30 days has elapsed from the date the payment which puts the customer in credit
was made. This delay is built in to our processes to mitigate a type of fraud which relies on repayments
being issued quickly. It was increased from 14 days in April 2011.
The terminology being used by contact centre advisers in some cases appears to be causing confusion
and the guidance they use is being reviewed.
It should be borne in mind that once the 30 day period has passed the normal repayment process will
start.
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AGENDA ITEM 4: UPDATE ON GROUP’S EXISTING UNRESOLVED ISSUES
WT029 R40 PROCESS
Various issues have been identified relating to the R40 repayment process including backlogs, lack of e
version, lack of copy calculations, requests for additional evidence, treatment of earlier years'
underpayments, use of cheques rather than BACS process and 64-8 problems
05-03-12 A presentation was given to the Voluntary Community Sector on the 29 February, an event is
being planned for agents.
30-01-12 The business is considering an alternative iform for the R40 form which we incorporate
suggested improvements to the form and notes.
I have fed in the suggestions from the R40 working group and the LWT groups, additional feedback has
been provided by the national claims team, and repayments and forms team. The next meeting has been
scheduled for mid February.
WT037 P2S AND ASSOCIATED CODING PROBLEMS
WTSG set up a working group to look into various issues with P2s and coding generally. The group met
in June 2009 and identified the issues listed in document attached. Of those issues the one regarding
timing of the P2 run for agent copies is being pursed via an IT change request. The group concluded that
the other issues should be revisited when the effect of NPS on them was known. Local groups should
compare any new P2/coding issues against the list - new issues should be referred in the normal way.
Existing issues will be d/w by the working group.
6/01/12 This area of work is now being taken forward under the Joint initiative on HMRC service delivery.
The entry will be updated as appropriate in due course.
WT042 DMB CAMPAIGNS (CT & OTHER)
1. Debts are being chased without proper checks and records are not up to date leading to problems
between clients and agents when debts are incorrectly pursued. In some cases the letters go to the
agent (where their address is the company RO) but in others they go direct to client company.
2. In addition the tone of the letters which use the IDMS99 template is considered inappropriate.
3. Difficulties in getting through on tel no quoted in Campaign letters, delays in delivery, lack of
understanding of issues by staff taking calls especially assumption that coys who have agents acting for
them would be aware of amounts due in the absence of payslips.
6/01/12 Whilst DMB issues do not feature by name in the Joint initiative on HMRC service delivery
commitments we expect some to be progressed alongside those specified and will discuss how to
advance the remainder urgently.
WT 046 ADL SERVICE INCONSISTENCY AND INCOMPLETENESS
1. There appears to be an inconsistent approach to the provision of information by ADLs particularly in
relation to P45 and P60 details in the run up to the January filing deadline. Sometimes the information is
readily supplied during the call but often agents are told that HMRC will only reply in writing to such
requests although sometimes the details are faxed.
2. The HMRC website indicates that ADLs deal with SA and PAYE queries but there appears to be an
issue with employer queries for which some staff are providing the employer helpline number.
3. Some calls to ADLs are not being put through to technicians and in addition call backs can take
anything from two to five days.
4. When call backs are made and they are missed for whatever reason no further attempts at contact are
made and no messages are left.
5. Difficulty for agents making contact where there is no ADL e.g. VAT, CIS, Employers and NI enquiries.
05-03-12 A record number of calls were made to the ADL in January, 174K calls with nearly 7K referrals
to Cust Ops. Work is ongoing to understand the nature of the calls and if any comms are required to
existing guidance.
19-12-11 As the January filing deadline is approaching I have checked with the business on the issue of
providing the P46, P60 information. They have confirmed that the ADL cannot give this information over
the phone but will send the information in a letter to the agent. The wider issue of improving telephone
service to agents is being taken forward as part of the JUAP project. http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/news/hmrcservice-del.htm
WT143 INCORRECT TAX CALCULATIONS FOR SA & R40 INDIVIDUALS
Tax calculations are being issued in advance of R40s and SA returns being received leading to
repayments that are incorrect being made. Not only is this creating additional work for agents and HMRC
it is undermining agent/client relationships.
31-01-12 Guidance on how to deal with such case have been published internally and PAYE manual has
also been updated PAYE 93005 and for the R40 process at PAYE79001. An update will be published in
WT47
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