FACL and FUDL Breakout
Ballroom A
March 11, 2004
0800 - 1200
John Venaglia – Food Contract
*Synopsis of new food contract on www.nifc.gov/contracting
General Information:
 Personnel dealing with these contracts should have formal training in contracting.
 The Food and Shower contract is a Performance Based contract.
 Not called the Blue Book any more – Food Book and Shower Book
 Appendix F of Food Book – inspection section, explains in more detail how to
assess exceptional performance. Performance measured in quality and customer
satisfaction.
 The contracts have incentives as well as disincentives.
 One page evaluation/survey to be filled out by firefighters to measure customer
satisfaction – take to Logistics chief for approval and signature and than attached
to invoice. The survey form is suitable documentation. This is for every hot meal
served. The form or sample size has not been drafted yet.
 If average is not at least a “3” than the contract will not be renewed. Good
contractors will like it – they believe they are doing above average work and will
get rewarded for such.
 Spending $40 to $50 Million on Food Contracts last year.
 Three prices for breakfast and dinners served. Over 80,000 meals a lower price
than 50,000 to 80,000, which is a lower rate than less than 50,000 meals, served.
Average for last year was 70,000 to 80,000 meals. The meal count applies only
per unit and not per caterer.
 Meal prices between 1998 and 1999 jumped 21% - amounted to $10 million.
Camp crew increased 15% and the salads were 5%.
 Minimum in the past as been for 150 – and contract never covered tents for more,
but we interpreted that. If on the schedule they need to provide it and we must
pay the daily rate. If we find a better rate in town than we can rent that. The new
“minimum” sitting is now at 175. If we add the new tents they are still required to
bus those tables and eating area.
 Hand washing stations are now part of the contract – there is a daily fee and the
purpose is that there is a daily rate so if it is inoperable that they are deducted the
daily fee. Mirrors and outlets are optional, 400 gallons and 400 gallons of grey –
same specs came from shower (minimum of 4-sinks).
 Daily rate – food contracts is not the same as restaurant meal costs.
 CDF type kitchens (MKU’s) are very comparable to such caterers as Blagg’s –
they subcontract to Abel’s, buy expensive food, make 200 more meals than the
FUDL will order.
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It is the contractor’s responsibility, under the new contract is to handle dust
abatement within the tented eating areas and the Government’s responsibility
outside the eating area.
Performance Ratings, Section F:
o Quality and quantity – exceptional (5%), satisfactory and very good
(scheduled price), marginal (-5%), and unsatisfactory (-10% with form on
non-compliance) – need to inform John Vegnalia immediately, especially
with 2 unsatisfactory in a row.
o Exceptional is defined as exceeding government standards – taste, freshness
and a concurrence from Logistics Chief. If there is a problem – need to
assess if it actually had an impact. Incentive has a “per hot meal” and at the
end of an incident performance review. For lunches there is no incentive or
disincentive, but you can write him or her up for non-compliance and than
take a value away – be fair. If no agreement with contractor and you than
write it up and send up both versions to Contracting Officer.
o Satisfactory or very good – scheduled price only. Normal course of
business. Taste is of industry “norm.” Variety is maintained.
o Marginal does not met, food safety, authorized change in menu changes and
timeliness
o Unsatisfactory does not met contract standards and well below normal.
Meals have called sickness in camp and concurred by Logistics Chief.
Unsatisfactory is grounds for default.
NICC is your contact for 24-7 coverage (John Vegnalia - cell # (208)
No A Commercial Meat (over 30 months old), Brahma, Holstein, no meat with
Soy as byproduct in the meat.
USDA Grade “A” poultry (within the shield, actually inspected) vs. USDA “A”
outside the shield where it has an inspector sampling the whole rather than the
individual birds. We are paying 30% more per bird for the A within the shield.
In Section C, 5 does not require the shield.
If there is 150 people and expected to be that many for at least 72 hours than the
Government is obligated to use the National Contract.
When does the 150 kicks in – when a need for a mobile kitchen and the head
count is over 150 people.
With a mobile caterer on-site we need to get lunches from them. The caterer may
subcontract to someone to make lunches but we will only pay for the cost of the
lunch plus 15%. Get the invoice from the caterer to get “delivered” cost to
determine the 15%. If the off-site lunch price with 15% exceeds the scheduled
price we only pay the scheduled price. If the contractor cannot make the lunches
than you have the option to go to someone else to make lunches.
The “lite” lunch – simply eliminated the second entrée (or one of the two entrees
to be determined by the FUDL).
Alternate Unit – one primary unit per location, although may consider alternate
unit to support primary unit. This gives the option to bring in an alternate unit
versus bringing in another kitchen.
Additional equipment is a need determined by Logistics Chief, negotiated with
contractor, and notify/negotiate with NICC.
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Fresh brewed coffee (high quality Columbian or better) no concentrate. An
exception may be needed for spike camp short turnarounds.
Salad bar does not count as a meal; this also includes the breakfast bar.
The contractor must abide by DOT regulations. Interpreted that we do not have to
state all laws, as that is inherent in the contract. If we are aware that something is
going and do nothing about it than we could be liable.
Supplementals – no list exists. May order from the contractor and his supplier
and pay 12% above the invoice price. What to avoid people filling up their
thermos in the kitchen area. Verify with approved supplemental list. Are not
obligated to purchase supplemental from contractor. Acceptable supplementals is
policy driven – may need to negotiate with agency administrator.
Can still handle new contract with existing invoices.
Work up front on denoting bag lunches. Brown bags are for regular and white
bags are for veggies. May need to denote an “L” on brown or white bag to denote
“Lite” lunches.
Contract is expected to be awarded no later than late June/August. This time
frame includes the possibility for up to 2 protest sessions.
Issues:
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The breakout group felt it was critical to keep kitchen with contract camp
crew, even though it supposedly is an extra $10 million cost. Cannot
assume that the entire $10 Million is directly related to the camp crew
addition in the contract.
Need the “technical” experts to provide a “Government Estimate” for cost
per day for sink units – measured in $ per individual sink. Is $50 per sink
(e.g. 4-sink unit would be $200 a day)?
Service supply Plan – Logistic individuals need to stop in to their
administrative unit and meet with CO to check and validate the cost of
logistical items in the Service Supply Plan – provides them suggested
pricing in a “Government Estimate” or other form of documentation.
Contracting Officers may request logistical input by accessing the
logistical website at www.fs.fed.us/logistics.
Need to work out the alternate unit vs. additional equipment (follow-up for
John Vegnalia and NICC).
Confirm that the contractor must abide by DOT regulations and it is their
responsibility not the Governments.
FACL and FUDL Breakout
Ballroom A
March 11, 2004
1200 – 1545
Melinda – Shower Contract
General Information:
 28 units of 65 units were selected based upon best value (past experience, cost,
etc.)
 Blank designations – Log Chief are COR and responsible for FACL and COTR.
 Need to have at least COR Level I&II if USFS, otherwise depending on your
agency requirements for delegation of authority for COR.
 Need to document why you choose to use something other than the National
Contract shower. There are no minimum numbers
 30 Designated Dispatch Points.
 Performance Based Contract.
 Ask contractor for vendor contracts for additional offered. Each contractor has
what was offered which now has become there minimum
 Must have a modification from CO if there equipment is different than what is
stated in the contract.
 Contact a cost analysis for using the shower’s potable vs. an EERA potable. You
need to clock the hours and document odometer readings to calculate the time &
mileage.
 On Federal fires it is safest to order a shower from NICC and wait for a “not able
to fill.”
 Not obligated to use this contract on all risk incidents – the language says
“wildland fires.”
 Contractor is responsible for dust abatement for shower area (sink, waiting areas),
otherwise it is the Government’s responsibility.
 Fiscal WILL NOT PAY without the second continuation page.
 We are responsible for quality assurance and the contractor is responsible for
quality control.
 The request may be cancelled at any time.
 CWN vendor always gets released first. IF a unit is to be demobbed, document
rational on why you keep the unit you did and supply to CO.
 Must document intermittent use and document clock hours in Block #25 on 1276D continuation sheet.
 Must have a spill containment kits, so check for other safety items.
 Check contracts to assure contractor has brought items they said they would have
when they bid on the contract.
 Be reasonable when arriving at deductions – don’t ask for deductions for things
that can be fixed – be realistic, as things will break.
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Use the form of non-compliance in the back of the contract and submit to CO.
Tell than where they are failing and the reference in the contract and get
contractor to sign. If they don’t want to sign it that’s okay – send it to CO any
way.
The contractor is required to bring past performance evaluations with them during
the course of the season. Must write up an evaluation prior to their departure
from the incident.
Melinda is aiming to have books to the cache by end of March to get printed –
expected to take 6-8 weeks to print. You will need to go to NIFC website to keep
up on any changes/modifications. You can still use the old forms, as we don’t
want to waste these forms.
If usage exceeds 75 per head than an additional 50% will be paid.
Intermittent does not include using the potable to fill up canteens or other
containers.
Re-location has changed to $575. Relocation involves change in location as
assigned to that same incident.
Document actual mileages in Block #26 on continuation sheet (1276-C). They
are required to keep a logbook by DOT – a good place to verify.
If service is cancelled, a minimum of 2 days of usage shall be paid.
Section J has not changed. Water sample needs to be none in a reasonable
amount of time. If you don’t feel the water sample is not timely put it on their
performance evaluation. They need to keep a water log and cleaning schedule –
ask them for it. If they said it would be food or potable grade, than they better
have it. Again ask them for their contract to make sure they have what they say
they have.
Issues:
o Look into a shower minimum, such as exists with the Food contract.
o To assess the use of contractor’s potable water truck, try to note on invoice
that the vehicle was used even though mileage was not charged.
o Melinda is asking for pre-use inspections on all the vendors, as the CO
was unable to conduct inspections before releasing the contract. Mary
Fields has the inspection checklist. The vendor should also have the
checklist.
FACL and FUDL Breakout
Ballroom A
March 11, 2004
1600 – 1700
Martin and Vicki
Last Year’s Bin List (2003):
Insert list that Vicki read off at the start of this session.
Melinda – look at updating the potable water standards and submitting to CO.
This Year’s List (2004):
 National Electric Code 215 – is galvanized pipe as electrical conduit. This is
not legal (if not UL listed). Health & Safety issue. There are ways to
mitigate by using flexible connections – but got to do it right.
 EERA on hand wash units to set up a travel cost vs. paying them a daily rate.
Hot Topic button on website (Finance) to set up fair and equitable rates.
 Will we have the ability to acquire security from National Park Service.
Parks are extremely short handed due to Homeland Security demands and
likely NPS will not be available. Region 2 USFS said they would be
available.
 There is a concern over the availability and future training for all logistic
personnel.
 A lot of discussion of the need to have logistics expertise to provide input
into the shower and food contracts, but the money and home unit
commitment is not there to assure quality and administration of contracts.
 For any questions for the logistics, send notes to Cherie Sanders for
distribution. Logistics agreed to synthesize input to pass onto Food and
Shower contracts.
 Improve sack lunches. Action item from 2003 Logistics Workshop was to
have Sharkey from Missoula, Mary Fields, Logistics Chief representative,
FUDL representative, and COTR representative to come up with sack
lunches that will meet the needs of both Type 1 & 2 (firefighters so to
include engines, etc) crews.
 Like to receive updates or feedback on resolution of appeals, claims, etc to
learn from past actions so we do not duplicate them in the future. Need to
share that with all logistic personnel.
 Will it be possible for use to do shift tickets instead on hard copies? Seems
like we are duplicating work.
 Take the initiative to gather good camp locations, land-use agreements,
grease disposal, grey water, and potable water sites prior to needing it. Will
be so much more useful than wasting so much time chasing it down when
the incident is occurring. Consider developing a database accessible on the
website.
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Develop or maintain a national list of qualified people in FACL, FUDL, and
other logistic positions – should be ROSS.
Incident Management Teams should look at having at least 50% instead of
all them in Operations. We talk about the concern over not enough trainees,
but we don’t back it up on actually IMT rosters because “it is too
expensive.” Stand your ground and fight for want you need!
We appear to be making barriers to getting young people introduced to the
fire camp and incident experience. The Red Card qualification is making it
difficult to give people exposed. The time frame to get to be able to get on
incidents takes a few years to complete. A bypass to this is to hire AD’s
with less experience but the assignment does not count for them and an
opportunity is foregone for those that want to get experience.
Change Position Description’s to gain “Other Work as Assigned” to address
or allow for fire support at least 10% of the time. Need agency support and
NWCG needs to get more involved in this. This may include all risk
assignments.
Where is the Smart Card System? We need the system, can we force the
issue so we can get the Smart Card system going.
We need to work harder on mentoring/pushing people into fire positions that
best suit them and the fire organization. Remember our motto of last year –
“Who is your replacement?”
The demographics of the younger workforce has changed, and the interest is
not really there. In addition the funding has been reduced especially in the
form of training dollars. The culture growing up in fire has changed. There
is not an incentive to do fire – work and demands from home unit are not
supportive to those on fires. Line officers look at only targets/goals not on
fire support. Need to develop evaluation criteria specific to the State and
National Land managers and back down the chain of command to make it
part of their evaluation criteria.
Smart Cards are at least 3 years out. We should look at trying to make the
badges work. Another option is too utilize the Red Card with photo ID and
than apply an incident specific barcode label to affix to the back.
A lot of discussion on contracts – let’s bring people back to explain the good
and bad of the summer’s contracts.
The camp crew with the kitchen is critical to maintain as part of the caterer’s
responsibility. DON’T TAKE IT OUT OF THE CONTRACT!!!
John Vengalia has come with a lot of energy, but lacks a lot of
understanding of the basics of the incident base camp environment. Can’t
slay the dragon, without know what and where the dragon is. Why isn’t
Melinda and John utilizing the COTR’s for technical expertise – maybe hire
them or pay 50% of their wages. John and Melinda need to get out to fire
camps more frequently.
Enough with the website – get on the phone and communicate one-on-one.
Let’s try to pull a core Logistics group to provide input for Melinda and
John.
Establish EERA price consistencies with Regional costs adjustments.
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There is money available for fire training for AD’s, but within the agency
there is not fire money for non-fire personnel for fire training. There are
inconsistencies within and across regions, between forests, and between
smaller units.
Is there Homeland Security Grant (ODP) available for us to train on as we
become more involved in all risk assignments?
Could we get more support financially by restating the goal/title of the
National Logistics Workshop to something more supportive? Maybe by
combining refresher trainings, or training to qualify as an assignment for
those that have multi qualifications that don’t get out that much also. Reevaluate the format of the National Logistics meeting to include speakers,
refreshers, etc to get people more involved and informed and ready for that
next incident.
Evaluate the phone plans and get plans that are a little more expensive per
month, but in the long run so much cheaper.
March 12, 2004
** Red text are bullets items we reviewed as important to present to the entire
group on March 12th.
ISSUES AND SOLUTIONS:
Smart Card (solution):
 Use your agency badges with incident specific sticker.
 If they don’t have a badge than make one on the incident.
 Why is it taking three years to get Smart Cards going?
 Regional Offices, BLM, Army Corp, Columbia Shuttle, various fire assignments,
 Angeles NF has a version of combined Red Card/Smart Card.
 If we choose to pursue the badges “start-up” equipment we need to push it up to
the national level so they can pull together a bunched contract request to purchase
equipment for all Type I & II Teams.
 Why can’t Homeland Security provide some money to help us purchase the
equipment?
 Should be a standardized format across agencies.
Automated Shift Tickets:
 Why not try to use a system like the rental car companies do where we can use a
handheld that can prints out a ticket.
 Realize that there is a cost to being cost accountable. For example we need floor
covering (carpet) to support the computer real time recording we are dealing with
now.
 Paper won’t ever go away – but for the 2% of fires that are 98 of the costs
automation may be more accountable method.
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Potential dilemma when we move from small to big and vive versa there may be
dilemmas with the transfer from paper to PC. Maybe having computer kits will
alleviate this.
We need to adjust for the future – the upcoming generation is very computer and
technological smart. We should try to think out year to work toward the needs of
those that will be replacing us. We may very well not have any paper at all as we
have been use to in the past.
Information Sharing:
 NWCG is not accepting any more Working groups, but we need to have some
type of core group to address such issues as work to rest ratio and implications to
Logistics group, etc.
Use of AD’s and other hires:
 California AD’s have taken a huge pay cut and now will not go out anymore,
 Lack of incentive and support toward taking up hosting AD’s. Personnel offices
do not want to take on the administrative harassment of dealing with them.
General consensus of group agrees that it is better to have dispatch deal with it.
There is an AD firefighter association developed over the last year
(www.adfirefighter.org).
 Lack of consistency in hiring.
 Work claims do not get tracked to the forest or location to where the accident
occurred but back to who is supporting the AD.
Full pay, incentives, and availability for agency personnel:
 In all risk assignments we do not get full overtime pay as we for on fire incidents.
 The letter to have people go on fires is just words – line officers inquire it. There
is no incentive to let their people go.
 FEMA does not pay Base 8.
 All risk means all weather.
Administrative:
 Cooperating agreements are not written to address all risk assignments.
 Think about adding fire assignment qualifications to your career path. There is
extremely valuable experience in management skills. State and local fire
departments incorporate it into such things as job applications where you get an
extra 5 points for being in fire – gaining management skills and being put into
pressure situations.