ED & Planning Committee
Meeting Summary for April 30, 2008
Page 1
______________________________________________________________________________________
COMMITTEE AGENDA TOPICS
I.
Subject:
Action:
First Ward Park & Parking
Receive additional information on a public/private City/County
partnership to build a parking deck and park in First Ward.
II.
Subject:
Action:
Revisions to Ed Corridor Grant Program
Make a recommendation to City Council on revisions to the ED
Corridor Grant Program
COMMITTEE INFORMATION
Present:
Time:
Council members John Lassiter, James Mitchell, Anthony Foxx, Patsy
Kinsey and Nancy Carter
12:00 noon – 1:55 p.m.
ATTACHMENTS
1.
2.
PowerPoint Presentation First Ward Parking Deck and Park
Business Corridor Revitalization Programs, Grant Program Revisions.
DISCUSSION HIGHLIGHTS
I. Subject: First Ward Park and Parking
Ron Kimble: Tom Flynn will run through some of the concepts that we really didn’t
get a change to go through in any great length with the Council when this got
referred. As you recall, you were pressed for time that night and simply referred it
to Committee. We want to spend some time walking through the concepts. We
have with us today Jeff Brown who is representing Levine Properties and we also
have Dennis Rash from UNC Charlotte and Mark Hahn from Mecklenburg County so
we have many of the players who will be sitting around the table to really dive into
this and figure out what is the policy framework, what is the position that we as a
staff should take as we bring this back to you. We will have many bites at the apple
here in Economic Development and Planning. Today is our opportunity to share
where we are with this. I would expect there is at least one more meeting, if not two
more meetings for you to really be able to ask us the kind of questions you always
do as you would then formulate a recommendation and send it back to Council. I
think this is likely here for a month for lots of conversation with you as the elected
officials.
(Tom Flynn used a PowerPoint for his presentation to the Committee)
Basically what we have before you is a proposal that comes to us for a public/private
partnership with Levine Partners, UNCC, the City and the County to build a 900
space parking deck in First Ward that would be capped with a park of a little more
than four acres. The proposal is to use incremental property tax, (City and County),
ED & Planning Committee
Meeting Summary for April 30, 2008
Page 2
______________________________________________________________________________________
to pay for the parking deck portion of that. I think the park portion would probably
be funded separately. That is one of the pieces for discussion between the Levine
Properties and the County.
Questions/Answers/Comments
Carter:
To clarify something about the issue, the other buildings around the
area will be self parking, correct?
Flynn:
That is correct. We will talk a little bit about that. Using a map, Mr.
Flynn pointed out the location of the park. Underneath would be the
900 space parking deck. He pointed out the Arena and the light rail
line, Brevard Street, Seventh Street, Eighth Street, which will go
away, Ninth Street and First Ward School. This is a key part of
discussion because in the 2010 Plan and in the First Ward Plan it called
for a new park to be built for First Ward as the old First Ward Park
wasn’t really in the proper location. We have since sold that and it is
under full development. This is the park that would service First Ward.
The development that would surround the park would basically be
owned by Levine Properties. He also pointed out the portion owned by
UNCC which is shown in purple. Phase I of this project is basically the
development of the park and parking deck, UNCC, a mixed-use
building, and a second building that is predominantly residential. The
second phase is an office tower, hotel and more residential.
Carter:
Could you carefully delineate the property that is owned by UNCC? Is
it the footprint of the building or is there more?
Flynn:
(Pointed out on the map the UNCC property)
Carter:
Is it the green area that is a rectangle or is it more approximate to the
building?
Rash:
It would extend a little south from the pink outline that you see and
that is more of a … gram, and the building mass actually won’t look
like that. There is yet to be determined … somewhere in the vicinity of
about between 50 and 100 feet of green space that we would like to
have link with the park so that it become seamless. It is our hope that
pedestrians coming through the park from whatever their origin could
flow seamlessly into the building. I might also add that we are in
active negotiations with Levine Properties for that corner parcel across
Ninth Street at the intersection as a Phase II.
Lassiter:
Tom, could you point out the Hal Marshall Building and First Ward
School so everyone will know where everything is?
Flynn:
(Pointed out the Hal Marshall Building which the County currently has
under contract to a developer. Also pointed out First Ward School on
the map)
Flynn:
(Continued the presentation). Phase I will be open in 2010 and
includes UNCC and has a private sector investment value of about
$115 million and would generate roughly at current tax rate about
$1.5 million in City and County taxes. Phase II which would be
opening over span of 2012 – 2014 is along the block on Seventh
Street, predominantly significant office component, significant
residential, hotel, retail and also above ground parking spaces. Those
ED & Planning Committee
Meeting Summary for April 30, 2008
Page 3
______________________________________________________________________________________
Carter:
Flynn:
Rash:
Carter:
Rash:
parking spaces are not part of what the developer is asking the City
and County to pay for. Those are stand alone, developer pays for all
of those. That represents an additional $455 million in private sector
investment and an additional $5.9 million of City/County taxes at the
current property tax rate. From our perspective as we talk to UNCC
and the Levine Properties about it, the parking deck does have several
advantages for us. As it is proposed, it really would leverage private
sector investment in a parking deck. The proposal is that the Levine
Properties bear the risk, bear the capital costs and the City and County
would be filling the gap, but we would really be leveraging private
sector dollars to get this built. They would be responsible for overruns
and additionally it begins to put in place something that incense
private sector development in this area. As you know, the way that
we structure these is the developer doesn’t get any City/County
money until there is City/County revenue flowing back in from this
investment. This really incense the developer to do this additional
private sector development around the park that will provide that
revenue stream into the project. More importantly, it does clearly
support the UNCC Center City Campus which was part of the vision
that was laid out in the Center City 2010 Plan and part of the work
that people have been involved in getting funded through the save
money … Additionally, it does provide public parking for the Civic uses
that are around here with Time Warner Cable, the Arena, the other
public facilities that are around here such as Discovery Place and the
Library.
Do you understand what will be offered at the UNCC Campus? I am
wondering if this will be a … for small businesses that are involved in
high technology in this area because we have that interest in this
approximate area and my understanding is … be outstanding job as we
could be doing.
It certainly would be a link because our understanding of what will be
primarily here is the graduate business school.
There are really about three predominant uses. The major use would
be Graduate Programs or Advanced Undergraduate Programs in
business. That is because of the connection with the Center City, but
business takes on a pretty wide form including a high level of data
security entry. We really don’t have the curriculum designed for that
use, we just kind of blocked out the areas. The second area would be
a very large component of our continuing education efforts. That
would cover … all the way from paralegal certifications and Spanish as
a second language or English as a second language, a variety of those
kinds of things. A pretty sophisticated health and human services
certifications. The third component would be the Urban Design Center.
What we understand is, and the real reason we are looking at the
second site, is to preserve options like this. I think our presence there
will be a catalyst for a lot of other needs that we simply can’t fit into
the constraints of under $47 million appropriation.
If we could encourage …
We would love to talk with you about it.
ED & Planning Committee
Meeting Summary for April 30, 2008
Page 4
______________________________________________________________________________________
Flynn:
Foxx:
Pleasant:
Foxx:
Pleasant:
(Continued the presentation). By taking the parking and putting it
underground rather than on adjacent parcels, it does allow for the
adjacent parcels to have other things on them such as residential
office. It does allow for more densification of the area around it. It
also replaces the parking that is there that is currently being used by
the downtown office workers, so that is a clear benefit as well to
provide some of that office time work day public parking. The
developer is proposing to build a Market Street that would run along
side the light rail line and be fronted by retail in these two blocks as
well. The parking would clearly support the retail that would front
Market Street. Our Planning Department used this as a very positive
piece of the development as well as when run the little transportation
model we have done. This helps bring back some of that grid that we
lose here.
Speaking as a resident of First Ward, I see tremendous benefit in
creating pedestrian thoroughfares in this parkway. I would like to
know from CDOT what analysis they have done on the connectivity
issue because I travel frequently in that grid, Eighth Street is actually
the only street in that quadrant of the City that you can use without
going to a … stop light. We are creating a situation there, moving that
through road that is going to go away as a result of this. What kind of
analysis have they done?
We’ve done quite a bit of analysis in here actually and part of that
analysis led us to lower the cap on the parking under the park. I think
it started out as 1,600 and it is down to 900 spaces. I am a pretty
strong advocate for keeping the grid and spend about as much time
trying to preserve the grid as I do getting new grid. In this particular
case we looked at it. We argued about it for a while and decided the
continuity of the park and what was going on around there was a
reasonable tradeoff for losing this piece of the grid.
What we
negotiated is to add Market Street in there and to sort of piece
together Tenth Street that would be a new piece of the grid. We
would like to continue to work with that and we’ve had that
conversation with the County’s land as well. That will help us to
restore some blocks in there. On occasion, it makes sense to interrupt
a grid if you’ve got a good civic use that can be highlighted by it, but
we do have a tremendous amount of dialogue and discussion before
we conceded.
Has there been any consideration to synchronize some of the other
streets like Ninth Street?
We really haven’t gotten to that level of detail. Certainly as we bring
this on to operation, every time we add a link or make a change we
certainly evaluate the signalization. We work very hard to program
the signals so they seem to make sense and usually we do a pretty
good job of it. In this part of Center City, what is a bit different is we
are assuming that all of these streets will remain two-way streets. As
you know, often times in a downtown grid, there will be one-way
paring and that sort of thing. Grade for capacity, grade for speed,
question about whether it adds to the sense of the community
ED & Planning Committee
Meeting Summary for April 30, 2008
Page 5
______________________________________________________________________________________
Kinsey:
Kimble:
Kinsey:
Kimble:
Foxx:
Kimble:
Lassiter:
sometimes. You can do one-way streets that are very communityfriendly, but often times they are little too fast to make that kind of
place we want, so we are assuming they will stay two lanes. That
compromises a little bit on capacity, but it probably yields best in the
place making area.
I think one of the worst mistakes we made in Fourth Ward, and I was
involved in the Fourth Ward Project from the get go, was closing those
streets. I know we want to encourage pedestrian traffic, but I take
issue with closing streets. I don’t dislike what I see necessarily except
for the closing of that street. We have messed with 5th Street going
around the Arena and I think it makes it very difficult to get around
because some people are still going to have their cars. I’ll get use to
it, but I don’t like it right now. It goes against what we generally try
to do also.
Part of the reason why it has taken so long to get this project to you is
the angst about many of those issues that you are starting to talk
about. We’ve had many, many staff discussions about whether or not
the closure of Eighth Street was the right thing to do in the context of
what you all would want for the First Ward. This has been a much
debated and much talked about issue so we don’t want to shortchange
what you are talking about because it has been very much a question,
but I think in the end CDOT is where they are after a great deal of
conversation.
It may not be where you are, but the staff
recommendation at this point is to move in this direction and
compensate for the fact that you would lose Eighth Street in other
ways.
I want to put Danny on notice right now, the next time he wants to
open a street and ruin a development in District I, or kill a
development in District I, I’m going to fight you because CDOT will
come and want to open a street that has never been open and leads to
another dead-end street and it doesn’t make sense. Here we are
closing a main street uptown.
Let me say this diplomatically, Economic Development is a team sport
and sometimes the individual opinions of various staff members
responsible for that professional opinion have to weigh in in the
context of what they are responsible for, but in the end, we all have to
come together and figure out what is in the common best interest of
the community in our opinion, and ultimately it is in your opinion, this
was a very heavily debated item.
I know this from being around that area, and particularly, when we
have events that are either feeding into or out of the area, Panthers
Stadium or wherever, that people are looking for ways to move in and
move out. I think if we are going to take this step, it would be wise to
look at streets like Ninth Street and try to figure out some way to
make the route going east/west in this quadrant a little easier some
where. In other words, trying to figure out some connection on
another street that could give that access.
Point well taken.
What is the anticipated movement on Market Street?
Is it full
ED & Planning Committee
Meeting Summary for April 30, 2008
Page 6
______________________________________________________________________________________
Pleasant:
Lassiter:
Pleasant:
Lassiter:
Brown:
Kinsey:
Pleasant:
Kinsey:
Carter:
Flynn:
movement? Is it pedestrian-oriented? Or is it designed primarily to
allow vehicular access into the developed parcels between Seventh
Street and Ninth Street south of College?
We see it as more for circulation, almost microscopic type circulation in
the immediate vicinity. We see it as a staging area for retail and for
transit, part of place making. It is multifunctional. It has a little bit of
circulation/transportation benefit to it, but it really has just
accessibility aspects to it.
We imagine it may be a sort of a
programmable street, one that has elevated level of urban design. It
could be closed for events and parades if need be, not so dissimilar
from how we are designing First Street with Wachovia and Cultural
Arts area.
Open most of the time for traffic circulation, closed
occasionally for special events.
Is it going to be at grade with the track? Is there an actual bow in the
track right there?
No, I think it is a pretty straight shot through there and we anticipate
it being a pretty straight shot.
It looks like it is bowing down. I don’t want to get heartburn about it,
but I want to understand what its true purpose is. I get concerned a
little bit if you take Eighth Street out and Seventh and Ninth become
the ways to get around here, that becomes the street you are going to
make all the turn lanes on and that is going to then catch up along the
relationship to the track because it is sitting right on the track.
A real important ingredient when you look at the aerial, Tenth Street
does not currently connect and the plan is that the development
entrance would provide for a connection from Brevard up to the Hal
Marshall area which provides another important link. It is part of the
balance because Eighth Street may be a little more centered toward
the Square, but we are going to be opening up another opportunity to
go east/west and the other balancing act, which we think is very
positive for the opening up of the development of those other parcels.
We think that Tenth Street provides several benefits, not only
providing that connection and opening that up to address partially, if
not significantly your concerns, it opens up for the development of Hal
Marshall, which we think is a benefit for the community as well as the
County. The balancing act was by having Eighth Street to continue
through the park it really bisected the part in a way, from Park and
Recreation’s perspective, limited the size of the park and really the
pedestrian nature and the openness of the park. That was another
ingredient that was part of the balancing act that was being discussed.
Show me where First … is. It is on the corner of College and Seventh
Street? It is not shown, is that going away?
No.
Good, it needs to be shown on there.
When we initially discussed this my question to you was why not go
under, as we do in the City, and include Eighth Street within the
parking concept? Another question I have are we debating the trail
that goes along the transit line?
I think we would see this as an extension of it.
ED & Planning Committee
Meeting Summary for April 30, 2008
Page 7
______________________________________________________________________________________
Kimble:
Foxx:
Kinsey:
Pleasant:
Kinsey:
Pleasant:
Carter:
Kimble:
Flynn:
As you can tell, there is many different interests and the wrong choice
of words would be colliding here, but there is many different interests
that have to be reconciled as you try to figure out what is the picture
of the future for this area. One other one that we cannot overlook is
UNCC’s presence in the Center City and how they would intend to use
the green space in concert with ImaginOn which is also right there on
the apron of the larger park. There are hundreds of different things
that are trying to be managed and worked through as this
development scenario comes forward. That is why it has taken us a
pretty long time to get it to you at this point.
There is First Ward, take Tryon Street on down and consider that as a
quadrant of the City, which we do, look at the number of roads you
have that run from one end of the quadrant to the other on the
east/west continually, and you’ve got really and I think some of them
are one-way streets perhaps, but my point is that I see what you are
doing with Tenth Street, but what that does if you are coming from
one end to the other end, it forces you to make a turn. That is one
thing that Eighth Street provided so my point is and I see that
combination on Tenth and think that is a good thing, but I still want
you to look at Ninth Street and perhaps Seventh Street, but on Ninth
Street there is a place where you might try to think through how to
make access and traffic move along there a little more rapidly. That is
really where people are going, from one end to the other.
Which streets are going to become two-way?
The only conversion in this graphic of streets becoming two-way will
be Brevard, Caldwell with a slight lining will be converted back to twoway so that it matches the piece that is right by the Arena.
None of the numbered streets are planned to be two-way?
The numbered streets that you see here, Fifth and Sixth are the only
ones that are numbered streets and are one-way east bound.
I’ve heard of the difficulty at ImaginOn dealing with school buses and
how you stage them, and they are stored…
I wonder if the new
Market Street would be utilized for … so you are addressing buses in
the area.
Part of a larger issue because you don’t just have the school age
children buses coming to ImaginOn, you’ve got whatever happens with
the new Library, you have Discovery Place, you have Blumenthal at
times. There is a whole big issue of what to do with buses and staging
of them from many of the venues in the First Ward area. We are
working from behind the scenes on that as we speak. Staging is a big
issue for buses.
(Continued the presentation).
This is a possible Economic
Development Grant structure that we have discussed and as we think
about this we think the policy guidelines that you have given us
through your Council Synthetic TIF Policy seems to us to be a high
priority infrastructure project. It is not in your Capital Improvement
Pogram, however on the other hand, clearly UNCC is part of the 2010
Plan as well as the Center City Transportation Plan that does call for
ED & Planning Committee
Meeting Summary for April 30, 2008
Page 8
______________________________________________________________________________________
Lassiter:
Kimble:
more parking in the downtown area, something around 14,000 more
parking spaces. We clearly think this fits the 45% in ten years. One
of the questions is, is that enough to close the financial gap on the
parking deck. That is something that we have to explore more.
One of the questions people have been talking about is the City getting
into the parking business. I have told a couple of folks that we are
already in it, having participated in parking facilities as part of the
Elizabeth Avenue redevelopment and part of the Metropolitan
Development. We are in essence in it as part of the NASCAR Hall of
Fame project. I raise the question particularly because it is not just
this particular use combined with the park, which is arguably a County
interest and County facility, but it also goes to the question of parking
needs in the Center City. I asked Michael Smith with Center City
Partners, what do you need in terms of adequate parking to meet the
growing public uses throughout the Center City because often what
happens, and you see it anytime, we have a big event, they drive
through Anthony’s neighborhood trying to find a place to go because
they don’t know. There is generally local visitors who are meandering
through Center City trying to find a deck or parking lot approximate to
where they want to be. Often times clogging up the streets until they
find a place, and our way finding is only part of that. I think the
bigger question is do we need to have an overall policy direction about
municipal parking in the Center City, what it ought to be and where it
ought to be and a funding methodology that is going to help provide
that. I point to The Charleston who have gotten parking business
about a decade ago and decided they were going to be in the parking
business. They started building decks, integrating them into various
places within the tourists parts of the old part of the City. I just raise
that as a broader issue that we need to roll all of this into because it
may very well be that we have some form of our Synthetic TIF as part
of this, but because it is a broad public use and because of what is a
broader public need, do we need to view this in a bigger picture of how
we get into this to meet those long terms needs. Once you have
baseball in the Third Ward to consume more of those surface lots, this
will consume a fair amount of surface lots when it is built out, the
problem will only get more delicate and we will end up with some of
these neighborhoods who will feel like they are being overrun by
visitors who we want to come down and spend money, but will not
know where to go and we will not have a vehicle to handle that.
It has been more than rhetorical with staff because the second biggest
reason why it has taken so long to get this one to you has to do with
what is the proper policy framework and staff doesn’t want to be in the
position of pushing Council to places where you do not want to go, but
it is rather a conversation with you about which way would be the
most appropriate. This particular project though, if you were to
choose to go into the public parking ownership route, is probably some
of the most expensive parking that you could ever choose to have
started your model on because it is underground and under a park and
it becomes very challenging to try and figure out how you would bite
ED & Planning Committee
Meeting Summary for April 30, 2008
Page 9
______________________________________________________________________________________
Lassiter:
Kimble:
Flynn:
Kimble:
Foxx:
Flynn:
Rash:
Kimble:
Flynn:
off that one as your first one getting into the public ownership of
parking business. We’ve had substantial staff discussions with the
County, City and the developer about public use versus public
ownership, who takes the risk, who operates and who is at risk and
how the best leveraging done by the public sector for the parking
component of this particular project. A real, real tough issue for you
and for us as to whether or not you want to venture down that path
with this being the first one.
I just to make sure we don’t deal with this in a vacuum because you’ve
got the Hal Marshall project immediately behind this and they are
being encouraged to have an significant retail component which will
line up with this Market Street retail, heading up a new reopened
Tenth Street. The expectation is that is destination retail and not
service retail. With destination retail, you’ve got to have parking to
support that. I raise that which is why I asked Michael to take some
time and pull out a map and tell me where you think the parking gaps
are. It may very well be that there is more tied to this that may be
more conventional parking where we take an active role in
conventional deck parking as part of some other development parcel.
It might also reduce the need for as much underground here or it
might be the supplemental portion that makes it work. I do want to
walk through that exercise so we’ve got a sense of what the long-term
need is and begin to identify the sources of capital to do that. I think
it is almost investment/reinvestment kind of model where we find a
way to recoup our cost and may even flip the property at some point
to a private operator to get us out of that if we have been able by the
additional capital to get it up and running.
Just a footnote – 300 of these 900 spaces are predominantly going to
be allocated for UNCC’s use for a large part of the week so that is
another element coming into this particular equation that would have
to be respected and recognized.
(Continued the presentation). The property tax increment would come
from development on the adjacent blocks controlled by the Levine
Properties, as well as a $4.2 million cash contribution from UNCC that
would be paid off to the use of student parking fees.
It may not be cash. It could be debt capacity.
Is that a one for one?
No. There is a gap there.
They don’t give us any money so it at the $14,000 per space that we
have authorized for … funding.
The cost per space is somewhere in the $37,000 per space, so this is
$14,000 on the $37,000. It is real expensive parking under the park.
I think we have already broached the conversation about the policy
question of what is the City assistance, what is the framework for City
assistance in parking decks in the Center City. What is the size of the
actual financial gap? We’ve just heard that there is a gap between
what UNCC can contribute and what the deck space will cost. What is
that gap, what is the other gap and can that be closed within the
ED & Planning Committee
Meeting Summary for April 30, 2008
Page 10
______________________________________________________________________________________
Lassiter:
Flynn:
Carter:
Kimble:
Flynn:
Kinsey:
Flynn:
Kinsey:
Flynn:
guidelines you have for high priority infrastructure? Can it be done in
ten years at 45%? That is the question we continue to explore.
We’ve got on here a 45/10 year deal and that has been the structure
we’ve set out under our new rules but 45 is, I think, the harder
number to move around because it gives you a great deal of ability to
tell some people that’s all I’ve got. I wonder when you’ve got a project
that has a much impact to the public, significant park, significant
educational investment that we may want to look at the length of
time, if we’ve got a financial gap, as the lever to see what that does
and if you are able to extend that number out. These things can easily
be financed on a 20-year cycle or 30-year cycle because of … I raise
that as perhaps the more viable portion of our structure.
That is what we are looking at now. We are analyzing with both Levine
Properties. Also the nature of this public parking – what is public
parking mean, what are the hours of availability, how can it be leased
out in terms of blocks during the day to make sure it is still available.
When we were in this discussion before hand, we talked about how
much we are committing to the project…
We will show you those numbers when we have them but we don’t
have all of them yet. This will be at Committee level for a while and
we are going to show you where we currently are and what this one
would do to that capacity.
A key point is County participation in this grant for the parking deck.
They have questions about is this really a County role to be in the
parking deck business. They have to come to terms on the land swap
with Levine Properties to make this possible. There are infrastructure
improvements around the park and the parking deck that we also need
to get a better handle on and what those look like. Some of the things
that Mr. Foxx talked about, insuring the walkability from First Ward up
into the park so it is an easy walk through there. Parking deck
entrance and exit locations are another issue we have to work
through. We clearly would like to get at least an egress onto Brevard
Street as well in order to ease some of the traffic congestion. We
talked with Parks about the park programming, the purpose, how that
fits with First Ward. The President of First Ward Association is here
and will be part of that conversation once Council and the Commission
say yes, keep working on this. Two other key issues are how do we
get development around the park in its early phase. This is a very
complicate project, very complicated mixed-use development project
and the public sector would be putting a park here and we want to be
sure that we have a developer with experience and knowledge and the
wherewithal to pull this off.
Tom, can you give me a map showing me what is going to be torn
down? What is there now that is going to be town down for future
development? I like to know that.
We can do that. We understand Dixie Tavern stays.
I would like to see some of our old buildings stay, I really would.
I think there will be some old buildings that go away with this, but I
think the developer has the intension that Dixie stays.
ED & Planning Committee
Meeting Summary for April 30, 2008
Page 11
______________________________________________________________________________________
Flynn:
Lassiter:
(Continued the presentation with Next Steps on Page 6)
If in this process you could get some analysis of the anticipated Center
City parking needs and some locational expectation of that based upon
now what we know is happening. Particularly where there is a gap
between the parking necessary for the particular uses versus the
parking that is going to be necessary for the destination and
entertainment uses. We’ve got a number of those issues coming up as
we look on one end of College and Tryon down at the NASCAR and
Convention Center and we’ve got other issues related to the areas
around Discovery Place, the Baseball Stadium and arguably some in
between that kind of fit to what we are trying to do in the
redevelopment of Second Ward and what now is the kind of gap
development in upper First Ward.
II.
Subject: Revisions to ED Corridor Grant Program
(Tom Warshauer used PowerPoint for his presentation to the Committee)
Questions/Answers/Comments
Kinsey:
Why does this jut out here on Monroe Road?
Warshauer: We haven’t been in areas that we thought the market was so good
along Seventh Street and Elizabeth Avenue, so we haven’t been in the
southeast quarter.
Kinsey:
Where is that picking up?
Warshauer: It picks it up at Wendover.
Kinsey:
It needs to pick it up at the railroad overpass.
Flynn:
You mean down at Cavalier?
Kinsey:
Yes.
Kimble:
So you would recommend covering it in a little bit further toward the
Center City?
Carter:
I am very interested why you did not carry out Independence further
because some of the most distressed areas will be where we … and
that is down in the area that is red.
Warshauer: The reason we haven’t gone out to where the Freeway is going to be
built is because we figured that where the Freeway is going to be we
are going to have a lot of existing leases and people that are going to
be turning over and we don’t know what the land uses are going to be.
We didn’t want to be putting money into projects that we are going to
buy again. There will be a lot of acquisition of property from NCDOT
for the construction of the freeway for the next several years and we
didn’t want to be putting money into projects that would be removed.
That is why we had not taken in much of Independence previously and
we are starting in the area where Independence has been done.
Carter:
I would argue that if you get in there as those businesses are turning
over and go in different directions, I think the infrastructure will be an
extraordinarily important investment as we get new potential for
development. I’m not saying the existing, but I am looking to the
future and I think that is a very important component of what will
happen in the area.
ED & Planning Committee
Meeting Summary for April 30, 2008
Page 12
______________________________________________________________________________________
Warshauer:
Flynn:
Carter:
Flynn:
Carter:
Lassiter:
Kinsey:
Lassiter:
We had thought that the infrastructure that roads and what we had
put in there would be important, but we were reluctant to fund façade
renovations in the area that would be undergoing that level of
transition.
I think the other thing is, we do have the Independence stage to study
that is currently underway that may address some of those issues as
to how do we help those parcel redevelop and would these types of
programs be beneficial is one of the things we would be looking at as
part of the Phase II Independence Study.
I agree with that, but if you do not have … in place it will be more
difficult to achieve. I am looking at the three … and I think those two
are … of what will happen further out Independence and if we declare
it now that could be the thought process as we go through the study
and look at this area and see the potential and know that we are
intentionally involved. I think this is looking to the future in an area
that we …
One of the other things that you did ask us to talk about is how
frequently we would be updating this. This hasn’t been updated in
about seven years, so one of our other recommendations is to do it
every two years with the Quality of Life and our thought is that might
be a better, given the build out of Independence and then you come
back with the Phase II study, that that might be the better opportunity
to look at, is this appropriate in that area.
There are more projects going on on Independence than we can
encompass and I think any … we have the HOV, we have the proposal
for the decision on the transit, we have the freeway being established.
We have neighborhoods that are in distress, we have protested zoning
that is not being … We’ve got lots of pressure on that area and any
assistance that we can offer and make a positive statement on that
specific geography, I think we need to make it.
I don’t want to discount any of that but you’ve got to pick a line at
some point and we have a significant amount of energy already
underway and focus and a limited amount of resources. Not all of this
will be completed or done in the next two years, but we will have a
chance to breath life back in the document and we will know what is
likely to occur in terms of road improvements and impact and that
may then allow you to examine what you want to do. Right now your
points of crisis along Independence are inside that … The degree to
which we focus on those first, I think the point is this is looking at
where you are going to reinvest. You don’t necessarily reinvest in
things that may potentially be torn down. Until we know what the
impact is it would be throwing good money after bad.
I understand what Nancy is saying and I think if we don’t include
further out, which I understand why we wouldn’t, does make that
study even more important. We have to be very careful about working
with the stakeholders on that and give them some sense of what is
going on. I do see some other places where possibly this could be
expanded.
Hopefully, in some places it gets compressed. If we do our job some of
ED & Planning Committee
Meeting Summary for April 30, 2008
Page 13
______________________________________________________________________________________
this comes off the map and we end up not needing to have dollars
focused on that area, but in fact take other ones that are a lower
priority today but will increase in priority tomorrow. I don’t think we
are going to solve this in the next 24 months. This is a much longer
term challenge that will require continued focus.
Warshauer:
Foxx:
Warshauer:
Foxx:
Warshauer:
(Continued the presentation with the Goal of Façade Improvement
Grant Program).
Can you go back one slide? I look at that and it strikes me that some
of our target corridors will necessarily be on the larger square footage
by virtue of where they are located.
I was thinking about the
Independence Boulevard area where we’ve got smaller retail
establishments that fit within a smaller square footage. My question
to you is in terms of how frequently are we seeing these used and for
what type purposes are they generally being used along those tiers
that you’ve got up there.
We have seen a number of shopping centers we’ve worked on and we
think those have tremendous impact to have smaller shopping centers
in some of the neighborhoods. We’ve also seen them used by a lot of
small centers. Virtually all of the buildings had been restored or had
work done to them in the NoDa area. A lot of the projects that you
see along Graham Street, art shops and hair salons, those are repeat
… We’ve done projects along every corridor and most of them have
been in a smaller square footage. We have done work on one of the
larger centers and that was Shops on Freedom. The amount of our …
was only a small proportion. We were able to do 40,000 on about a
half million dollar project, but it still helps people be able to make
those projects work. We think on some of the really large projects,
they should be coming to us and taking a look at it from a gap
perspective if they really have a huge project and a huge need. We
don’t want this to be a by-right, giving $40,000 to $50,000 away …
We have eliminated a lot of the requirements in terms of the types of
businesses that can apply. This is really a by-right and not by need.
Tell me, practically speaking, till I see what staff’s response is and give
me some more deeper analysis on how the staff arrived at the idea
keeping the retail classification and not extending it.
We have seen some smaller retail buildings and we wanted a separate
classification to be able to give more money … so shopping centers
under 30,000 square feet, we’ve had some retail buildings that have
been really important that are 5,000 to 6,000 square feet with three
tenants. We are just doing 15,000 … some very small shopping
centers that are really significant problems for neighborhoods and we
wanted to make sure we were going to be able to meet some of the
needs. There is another one that is applying to us now that we have
been working on Sharon Amity. There are small shopping centers that
are real problems to the community. We want to be able to expand to
reach into some of them for larger commercial projects that previously
would not have been eligible for any funding because they would have
been over $2 million. Under TIF in terms of sales, we will be able to
ED & Planning Committee
Meeting Summary for April 30, 2008
Page 14
______________________________________________________________________________________
Foxx:
Warshauer:
Foxx:
Warshauer:
Foxx:
Warshauer:
Lassiter:
work with industrial buildings and more manufacturers in other areas
who have never been able to apply previously. If we expand that to
any business 30,000 square feet or over to having larger grants, you
are going to have a lot of industrial buildings who are single users who
will be eligible. We were not sure we needed to be handing over those
sort of grants to any industrial building that might be applying to do
renovations to the exterior.
I think part of the challenge is that putting a glove out there that can
fit all the different corridors is extremely complex. I have a great deal
of appreciation for the work you all do to make this work, but
considering the possibility that there are industrial uses out there that
are adjacent to neighborhoods perhaps are in the category of eyesores
where there could be some use for some type of façade improvement.
We are basically saying no by doing this. Is there some way to … the
flexibilities, but do it in such a way that you are not exposing yourself
to a bunch of industrial?
What we think we can do on projects is the same as when you took a
look at Levine. You don’t have an absolute policy on how you want to
… but we really had a project that was coming forward that had a gap
with a good project that had a particular need that would have the
least impact. We can bring those projects to you separately to request
funding. We just didn’t want to make it by right that any project
would have access to this amount of funding.
Isn’t it also the case that when someone applies and they see the
criteria that they may not even file the application because they may
not believe there is a chance that they could get funding? How do you
deal with that problem?
We take a look at all of the projects that come in and some of them we
say no and if we think the project is significant detriment to the
community and we ought to be working on it separately, we would do
that. Otherwise, we would say you are eligible for $20,000 or you are
eligible for $15,000 and that is it.
What was the largest that the stakeholders applied to …..
There were some folks who were doing some office development, who
would like to see more money and be able to …
We have a lot of
multi-tenant office buildings that people are converting from industrial
to multi-tenant office buildings. That would make them eligible for
some funding. We are glad to give away as much money as you would
like, but we try to be careful and cognizant of the fact that there are
limited resources and really trying to work on projects that we think
are the ones that have the greatest impact and the ones that would
most likely not happen, but for.
We did a lot of work last year as a Council on land use between
industrial and residential and any growing industrial concern is going
to have to make significant changes in their façade in relationship to
residential use in order to get the permits to expand. Shopping center
sites are more likely to sit there for a long time, as long as they can
lease them, and if they are converting to office in order to get their
tenants, they’ve got to spend the money to get their tenant in. We
ED & Planning Committee
Meeting Summary for April 30, 2008
Page 15
______________________________________________________________________________________
Foxx:
Warshauer:
Foxx:
Warshauer:
Foxx:
Warshauer:
Foxx:
Warshauer:
Warshauer:
can come back and take a look at whether we’ve got some real issues
if we go through corridors where we’re not getting changes that need
to be and our seed money may do that, but I think the driver is our
long-term retail uses that just fester with no improvement. If you
could get folks to commit a little bit of their own cash you could
dramatically change the appearance of what is there.
The big box demo, just so I understand where our magnitude is there,
how would that help us with a place like ……
We would love to be able to see some demolition, and that was one of
the other questions we had about demolition funds. There is also code
enforcement discussion going on about vacant buildings so we
recognize that is happening on the smaller level and we don’t want to
preempt that discussion by offering something on the smaller .. at this
time. Some of the recommendations at the end of that study is take a
look at what our rules should be about code enforcement on vacant
commercial buildings. If we should be paying for demolition, we want
to do that, but we want to let that study go forward before we venture
into that arena of incenting demolition on this building. We want to
participate in that study and then come back to you on the smaller
projects.
Mechanically, how does that work? I’m using this example as one that
I visualize and a place like Upton’s the owner of that property has to
come to us and say I really would love to tear this down, would you
help me? Is that the way it works and would it work with the code
enforcement process?
There are a number of properties out on Freedom Drive and North
Tryon that have been vacant for a while. If the owners of those
properties came and I’m ready to tear it down, will you pay half of the
demolition expenses, up to $45,000.
Has that been successful in other cities and have people actually used
it?
We haven’t seen this in other cities, but one of the things we are
hearing from people was we need to deal with some of these big
boxes. We wanted to get these down so the neighborhood would be
better off without the big box. That seems to have been out there for
a long time on the big box report and those are things we’ve heard so
much in the community. We’ve also heard that about some of the
smaller buildings that they would love to have those come down too.
We just don’t want to make this a blanket program that any building in
this large geography that we are going to pay half the demolition.
I don’t think you are going to get an avalanche so I think we need to
think about how we are going to market that piece.
We did think that on the smaller ones that we would see a lot of
people because a lot of the infill projects involve moving existing
houses, smaller buildings are being torn down quite frequently. That
was one of the reasons we were concerned about getting any infill
project in here you could involve …
(Continued the presentation with Security Grant Programs).
ED & Planning Committee
Meeting Summary for April 30, 2008
Page 16
______________________________________________________________________________________
Foxx:
Warshauer:
Foxx:
Warshauer:
Lassiter:
Warshauer:
Warshauer:
The best incentive for retail from what I gather is low crime rates,
good infrastructure and good demographics. If I’m looking for retail
opportunities in Charlotte and I pick a place on the map, particularly in
our corridor, how easily accessible is crime information in that
particular geographic territory?
We use the neighborhood Quality of Life study a lot for people who are
looking at various areas to let them know what kind of neighborhood
they are moving into and what the crime stats are for that area. We
can also go to the Police and get them to run crime information for any
geography that people want.
I think we should put that actual information out there. I know from
talking to some folks in the retail world that retailers are looking at
extrapolated data a lot of times online that really doesn’t look at what
is actually going on. These companies are actually taking X number of
low income families, X number of people on the basis of race and lots
of other demographics and using a … that is out there as a national
factor to estimate what the crime rate is. They are not using what
actually happened. I don’t know whether that favors us or disfavors
us, but the more folks use actual data, the better off we are.
I was talking with some people yesterday on West Boulevard where
the crime rate has gone down substantially in a period of time when
we are hearing bad stories about crime. The programs that we have
done and the changes in that community have really resulted in a
reduced crime rate, but it is good information that people are not
aware of.
One thought about the industrial building upfit, it goes a little beyond
the confines of this particular program but it goes with the overall …
strategy and that is industrial property assemblage and it is a little
more CMDC kind of stuff, but part of this is figuring out from a catalyst
standpoint where you have under utilized, where do you have
buildings that have passed their life cycle and could be rekindled a
different way. You don’t have to go very far down the light rail on
South Boulevard and look out the window and see where that is now
occurring because of our investment and new access. You won’t
always have that as the way to find it or to make it happen and I think
the degree to which we can begin to think about some methodology to
assist private development who can identify parcels of land and what
role we might play is long-term beneficial to try and dramatically
change some of these corridors.
We have a number of areas where we have a lot of older industrial
buildings, but it is not going to be a change of use like the South
Corridor and it is not going to be a residential change. Those are the
ones that we are really concerned with here, going out on Graham
Street, Statesville Avenue, cross over I-85 there are a number of
properties that are good solid buildings and we are wondering what to
do about them. Who is the next user, do we help them tear it down,
do we help them retrofit it?
(Continued
the
presentation
with
Business
District
Organization
ED & Planning Committee
Meeting Summary for April 30, 2008
Page 17
______________________________________________________________________________________
Foxx:
Carter:
Lassiter:
Warshauer:
Lassiter:
Support).
That was one thing we saw that was very successful in Brooklyn where
they had business improvement districts and dedicated people. I
guess they were pretty much like what Michael Smith does for the
Center City. They knew who the business owners were, they were
constantly making sure things were going well, that the trash cans
were emptied and the streets were clean, to whether the police
protection was there. It is a really neat program and I know we are
kind of doing that now with some of the positions we’ve brought on
board, but there has got to be a way at some point to graduate it out
of within this building into the community.
On the east side there is a Police Association on Albemarle Road and
….
I think what you will discover is that virtually all of these organizations
are funded through some kind of MSD related function and the
question is…. Recognize that additional tax burden, does it prove as
an inhibitor or does it in fact provide some seed capital that everyone
sees as beneficial and getting some historical data I think is really
important to understand what the situation was when it was created
and the circumstances and then will give us some analysis as to how
do you use that in areas that are in significant need. Ms. Carter was
talking about expanding the distance, but if you expand it into areas …
you have resistance, you have to be careful how you apply it because
certainly unlike portions of SouthEnd where you pick up areas that are
a variety of uses, all of which are carrying a burden, you’ve got to be
sure you can be effective and has the value …
Some of the guidance we need, and we are talking to these to figure
out what are they using their funds for. Are those funds for capital
improvements, are they for promotional activities, and how does that
relate to what we do because we’ve been very fortunate in being able
to use GO bonds in the capital improvements in our business corridors.
I think the last slide is a question to the Committee, if we are in
position to make a recommendation to Council to adopt the changes to
the Business Corridor Revitalization Grant Program, particularly noting
these three categories: Revised Geography, and the changes we’ve
made today relative to the incremental pieces and then asking staff to
continue to work on some of the to dos.
Mitchell made a motion to make a recommendation to City Council on the
revisions to the ED Corridor Grant Program as follows:
• Revised Geography
• Façade, Security, Infrastructure and Business District
Organization Program revisions
• Direct staff to continue new program development for catalyst
site and expansion of assistance to business district
organizations.
The motion was seconded by Foxx and the vote was recorded as follows:
For: Lassiter, Mitchell, and Fox
Against: Carter (Ms. Kinsey was absent for the vote)
ED & Planning Committee
Meeting Summary for April 30, 2008
Page 18
______________________________________________________________________________________
Lassiter:
Foxx:
Lassiter:
Kimble:
II.
We are not discounting the … question. Clearly that is an ongoing
challenge for us and your point is well taken in terms of how we
long-term integrate the results of the Independence Corridor Study
to make sure that we continue to put …
To that point, one of the things that we have talked about is the
fact that there has been a lengthy period of time between the last
time we looked at this territory and … is there a way to build into
this in consideration of the territory?
We’ve already said it would be two years and it will be part of the
neighborhood study process. Every time we do a Quality of Life we
are going to pull this data back out.
One of the recommendations coming out of the second phase
Independence Study could be expand the geography. There are all
kinds of ways to make it link to what you want to do as a Council.
Subject:
Next Meeting
The next meeting date is scheduled for May 21st at 3:30 p.m.
The meeting adjourned at 1:55 p.m.