TRANSCRIPT OF TAPED INTERVIEW
with
PROFESSOR MALCOLM McCRAE
Key:
HN
TK
HN
MM
Tim KELLY
Hilary NESI
Professor Malcolm McCRAE
O.K. So what methods of small group teaching do you have in your
department?
MM Well, in the department there are sort of 3 main forms of small group
teaching, that we use. We’d have what you would recognise - what we
would call tutorials, and you might think of in other disciplines as
seminars. These are small groups, usually half a dozen or so students,
with a lecturer, who would be covering part of the course that would be
done in lectures, but in some more detail, with prior preparation of the
students before they come to the tutorial. So they will be expected to do
things and bring background work that they will have done to the tutorial.
We then have what we call seminars, and we mainly use these in the final
year of the course, and these are assessed pieces of work, where a student
will present a seminar - a short seminar, usually 10 or 15 minutes - to
another group of students. And this will be assessed. There will be 2
members of staff to assess their presentation, in terms of content, and
delivery. The form of delivery. We get the other students to ask
questions of their colleagues, so it’s a fairly formal arrangement.
And then, in the context of practical classes, we have small groups
brought together to deal with specific aspects of a practical class, and
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often they’ll be receiving instruction, either from the person running the
practical class, or from demonstrators who are demonstrating within the
practical class.
HN
So in the practical terms, does much speaking take place?
MM Not much speaking on the part of the students. It’s mostly talking to the
students rather than - and making sure they understand what it is they’ve
got to do physically, if you like, in the next stage of the practical class.
What are the particular techniques they have to do, and also, I suppose
one could say the theoretical background that underpins the physical part
of the practical that they’re going to do. Why are they doing this? What
could they expect to get out of it? What are the things they need to be
careful in watching when they do the procedure?
HN
Do you expect students to ask questions in practical classes?
MM You do expect students to ask questions in practical classes. I mean one
of the failings we often find with students is that they’ve not read through
the practical class instructions, if you like, before they come to the
practical class. They’re kind of doing it as they go along, and of course, if
you do it as you go along you often don’t - you haven’t given time to
think about the full implications of what it is that you’re doing. So you
don’t ask very sensible questions. It’s much better if the student has kind
of read the work the night before - in terms of what they’re expected to do
- and kind of ask themselves, “Why am I being expected to do this?”
You know, “What is this practical class being done in this way?” If
they’ve done that they’re more likely to be in a position to ask questions.
HN
M’m. In a practical class, if a student really doesn’t know what’s going
on, or doesn’t know what to do next, is it better for them to admit this even if it shows they haven’t done - ?
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MM Oh yes, sure. Sure. I mean the practical class - the actual carrying
through of the practical work is not assessed. What’s assessed is the lab
report they provide having done that practical work. So if they - you
know - if they come to a complete halt because technically they don’t
know how to do something, because they haven’t read the relevant thing
before they’ve got there, then they should ask the demonstrator. They’re
not going to be marked down in any way for doing that. Quite the
contrary in a sense - in that what you don’t want to have happen is for
students to be doing manipulations that they don’t really understand what
the heck they’re doing. Because they’re obviously more likely to get it
wrong if they’re in that situation.
HN
What’s the mark, do you think, of a good student in what you call
seminars and tutorials?
MM Preparedness. I mean the mark of a good student is somebody who does
some work before coming to that form of teaching, if you like. Whereas
in a lecture students can be fairly easily in the sciences in receiving mode,
if you like - and simply come to a lecture and take in what the lecturer is
giving to them, in small group teaching situations one is expecting the
student to do something. One expects the student to respond to questions
in a tutorial. Now if the student comes, having done no preparatory work,
they’re going to be - they’re going to find themselves at a severe
disadvantage and it’s not going to be a very good experience for them.
They’re not going to portray themselves in a very good light to whoever is
running the small group teaching. Because they’re going to give the
appearance that they really don’t know what they’re talking about,
because they’re not going to have given it any thought.
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HN
What about the very shy student, or the student whose first language isn’t
English? - and has difficulty expressing their ideas? What advice would
you give to someone like that?
MM I think probably the advice I would give - I mean shyness is quite a
difficult thing to deal with, because clearly one of the things you’re
hoping to do as you progress through a degree course is allow students to
get enough information that they will feel more confident about their
ability to talk about particular areas. So the expectations on students are
graded through the years, if you like. You don’t expect a student in the
first year to perform with the breadth of confidence and understanding
that you do a student in the third year. So, part of it is a learning process
of overcoming inherent shyness by building up confidence, and most
people who are running small group work will appreciate that and conduct
themselves in a way that will kind of encourage the students to build up
their self-confidence.
As far as kind of dealing with the language problem is concerned, I think
what I would encourage students to do is to practice, basically. You
know, when they - when they know they’ve got to talk about a particular
area, if they do some preparatory work and then actually practise what
they are going to say - and the way that they are going to say it. There’s
no substitute, it seems to me, for practising - having a go at trying to
answer a question - “What question might I be asked?” “How would I
answer it if I were asked it?” I think is the sort of thing one hopes
students would do.
HN
Have you noticed anything, particularly about international students in
small groups?
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MM They tend to be shyer. They’re more self-conscious. They’re - well
they’re often - well, they’re often shy, and they are certainly more selfconscious about their language ability. Usually what I say - particularly
if I am running a series of tutorials, let’s say, with the same group - I will
usually say to the international students, if I’ve seen that they’ve been shy
at the start - you know, the best way to overcome this, is practice. Either
practice in the context of the tutorial, or if you really feel shy and selfconscious, practice before you come, practice the sort of questions that
you’re likely to be asked, and if you want me to give you some likely
questions for each piece of practical work, then I’m quite happy to do that
as a way of kind of giving them the opportunity to - a little bit more giving
them the opportunity to shine, which of course builds their selfconfidence about being able to do it, if you like, in a small group
situation.
HN
What if misunderstandings occur in a seminar or tutorial? And what if a
student is misunderstood by the other members, or doesn’t understand
what another student has said? What should they do?
MM I think - I mean that’s quite a difficult situation, because it depends on
what the misunderstanding is. I mean if it’s a misunderstanding of factual
content, if you like - if it’s a misunderstanding of the content of the
tutorial, then I think all that one can do is kind of correct the student as
the teacher, if you like. You have to say, like, “Actually you’ve got it
wrong. You don’t quite understand this - this area of work.” That’s
difficult. One has to do that with some sensitivity, of course, in order not
to completely switch off a student. If it’s a difficulty of the student being
unable to express themselves in a form that the rest of the class can kind
of understand - or the rest of the group, I should say, because it’s not
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going to be a whole class - the rest of the group can understand, I think
what one has to do is try and, with some sensitivity, tease out from the
student - you know, try and get the student to say it in a slightly different
way, so that people can understand a bit more. Encourage the other
students in the group to kind of draw out that student and get them to say
it in a way that everyone can understand.
HN
M’m. I think we’ve more or less covered it. Was there anything - ?
TK
I think so. Is there anything perhaps - we talked about what students can
get out of, you know - take away from the seminar. You know, the kind
of learning outcomes rather than - is there a question there, or have we
covered that?
HN
Yes. I did wonder about learning outcomes. There’s two things, isn’t
there? There’s learning outcomes and there’s also what the process - you
know - do they - what is the relationship between -
MM All right. I think what you can say is that in the sciences small group
teaching tends to be done to add content at the periphery of the main core
of the information that we expect students to gather. We still rely very
heavily in the sciences on the formal lecture, as the main delivery
mechanism for the core of information we expect students to accrue, if
you like. And the small group teaching that we do tends to be things
where one is teaching students in a localised area, of the course, often
trying to add additional peripheral information and peripheral
understanding to the main core. And so one would hope students will
take away the enthusiasm to go a little bit beyond the main core
information that they have had given to them in the lectures. And if they
go away doing that then I would consider that to be a positive outcome, if
you like. And I certainly see and have happen where students have had a
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one hour tutorial with me, they go away and do some reading, and then
they come back and ask me further questions. Now I would consider that
to be a positive outcome for the tutorial. Yeah, I consider that to be a
positive outcome for the tutorial.
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