PNWCG Aviation Working Team Meeting Minutes
October 31, 2002
This meeting was held in the Glacier View Room, Gifford Pinchot NF Supervisor Office from 9:00
AM until 1:30 PM.
Attendees: Clay Hillin (BLM), Greg Loper(Guest BLM), Steve Smith (OAS), Steve Rossiter (BIA),
Jim Ziobro (ODF), Ted Stevens(BIA), Dave Doan (WADNR), Chuck Frame (WADNR), Cory
Winnie (BIA), Larry Nickey (NPS), Bill Bulger (USFS), Jim Payne (USFS), Stan Anderson(BIA).
Dave Doan was welcomed to the team replacing Mel Kam for WADNR. Bob Van Buskirk
reported in an email that soon someone from FWS would be attending who would have some fire
experience for that organization.
The Aviation Working Team SEAT Proposal:
This was discussed after Greg Loper (SEAT Manager and BLM Mentor
Program participant), and Clay Hillin provided an overview presentation of
the proposal. Cory Winnie recommended the AWT determine how to
distribute funding for the proposal. The funding scheme for aircraft agreed
upon is according to the following: Wenatchee, WA - DNR Yakima, WA - BIA
Goldendale, WA - DNR Richland, WA - FWS Pendleton, OR - FS Merlin, OR
- ODF Omak, WA - BIA Prineville/Madras - ODF John Day, OR - FS Burns,
OR - BLM Vale, OR - BLM Lakeview, OR – BLM. It was decided the easiest way for the position
to be established was to make it a BIA position to be based at Redmond. This person would have
COR responsibility for all exclusive use SEAT aircraft. The funding for this position will be by all
members of PNWCG per the federal funding scheme. Cory also added that a SEAT study was
done 6-7 years ago. Jim Ziobro will look over the past records that he has to see if we have a
copy of it.
Stan Anderson is in favor of regional coordination of all of our contracts. The PNWCG directors
should delegate the strategic placement of the resources. Toughest sell is going to be when the
resource is not available.
Some additional suggestions for the presentation were to add a summary slide with titles
recapping alternatives, a few wordsmith things in the proposal, and a circle is needed to depict
the PBY at Deer Park, WA. The tentative proposal was agreed upon and is based on a proposal
for everyone to fine-tune it with their directors. It was also agreed to present and recommend the
SEAT Coordinator Position to be DOI employee.
(Jim Ziobro research past records, report back, All members to meet with directors and provide
feedback on funding issue, Clay Hillin update presentation all due at next meeting.)
Aviation Policy Power Point Presentation:
This is an annual update requirement for the Aviation Working Team.
Jim Payne provided a run through to reacquaint everyone with the
contents. Suggestions for improvement include a change to the
sequencing on the Public Law 103-411 slide, more explanation on
independent action slide, and the Washington State Fire Marshall to
be included in the Matrix slide. Presenters need to stress accident
prevention as the main goal for the policy and why it is important to
follow the correct agency’s policy. In addition to these changes, Clay
Hillin, Jim Ziobro, and Chuck Frame will develop case studies on Virginia Lakes, Monument,
Carol Creek, and Quartz Creek to be included for use by presenters.
Washington Fire Marshall was identified as an agency with responsibilities for aviation on
incidents and will be invited to be a member of the AWT. Cory Winnie will ask if they want to join.
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PNWCG Aviation Working Team Meeting Minutes
October 31, 2002
(Dave Doan will find out their policy and guidance for inclusion in the Matrix. Jim Payne to update
presentation, Case studies as assigned due by the next meeting)
Matrix Update:
Updates include changing ODF Days off schedule to 1/7 and update the High Wind Limitations to
reflect that these are helicopter limits and to stipulate for DOI and FS that they are according to
IHOG by type.
(Clay Hillin to update and post Matrix. Due by next meeting)
Proposed changes to IHOG and 310-1
It was announced that a change to make IHOG an operations guide and 310-1 the controlling
document for training and qualification was in the works. States want to not be able to comply
with 310-1. Jim Payne and Bill Bulger were provided a briefing on these upcoming changes. Jim
will get the notes of the proposed changes and provide them so they will be included in these
notes. It was discussed that SEMG (SEAT Manager) also needs to be in 310-1.
The following section are notes on the proposed 310-1 and IHOG revisions obtained from Ed
Stone, USFS WO.
1) All FIRE related Helicopter Manager qualifications & positions will be removed from the IHOG
immediately, in time for this next revision, and will only reside in 310-1.
2) All project-related helicopter management positions will remain in the IHOG.
3) There will be two Helicopter Manager positions recognized in 310-1 (as presented in San
Diego), one for exclusive-use managers (used by some States, our ex-use manager position will
be augmented), and one for CWN helicopter management.
4) 310-1 will recognize and define a single-resource "Helicopter Boss", which will be the
Exclusive-use Helicopter Manager, thus the barrier many potential helicopter managers now face
will be removed as they qualify for an Exclusive-use Helicopter Manager under 310-1.
5) The FS (& other agencies) will move Exclusive-use & Asst. Exclusive-use helicopter manager
standards to agency documents. This is for a couple of reasons. Our agency (and several
others) Ex-Use Helicopter Managers & Assts work in appointed positions, under PDs requiring
skills beyond the minimum qualifications stated in 310-1. Because of this, our Exclusive-use
manager qualifications will have a few additional requirements beyond the 310-1. HOWEVER,
the minimum requirement to manage a federally contracted helicopter on any incident will be the
310-1 CWN Helicopter Manager position, which will require biennial attendance at a workshop, &
the HEMG training course.
6) As mentioned, the 310-1 folks have agreed to officially recognize the helicopter manager
training course, and will issue it a #, etc.
7) I know some folks are worried about the timing of getting the 310-1 changed to the new
standards. I had a conversation w/ Bob Leaverton yesterday (one of our reps on the IOS
Working Team), and he offered that the IOS team could issue a letter of commitment (if
necessary) to have 310-1 changed by March. We'll see where we get w/ that, personally, I am
satisfied that we have commitment from all parties (i.e., I have the faith!).
8) Also, the exclusive-use helicopter manager position will not be subordinate or a prerequisite for
CWN helicopter manager; this is to ensure that a path for helicopter manager exists beyond
working on an exclusive-use helicopter crew.
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Lessons Learned from last season.
A brainstorming session was held to capture these from our last season. They are recorded here
in the order they were presented.
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STAT Teams were issued a delegation letter from the Aviation Working Team. It would
have been hard for these teams to be effective with only an agency delegation letter.
More work to be done on the letter and process in the future meetings.
SEAT aircraft were very effective suppression tools.
Aviation Safety was pretty much able to predict the SEAT accident this year in the
Region. Noted that there is little FS input for the SEAT program. This is changing, and
operational level of intervention is needed.
Conference Calls were very valuable. One was for the STAT teams and the other was
for Aviation managers and overhead.
Units need to have backup/supplemental aviation overhead for busy times.
Identify and inspect cooperators by Federal Inspectors early on in the year. Have
combined letters of approval from OAS and FS.
R6 FS approved ATGS avionics in aircraft were not compatible with NIFC mixing box.
There are not enough NIFC Air Attack Radio Kits for a busy season. There should be a
requirement for each IMT to possesses their own Kit.
Frequency coordination still needs improvement.
IMT communications and delegations needs to improve as they relate to clarifying
aviation policy expectations.
Aviation Overhead continues as a limited resource.
The centralized receiving points for pilots, managers and aircraft really helped stabilize
these operations.
Since 9/11/01 the rules have changed and a small omission has huge implications now.
Consider the overall implications (Nationally) to a short term breach of the flight rules.
If you are following policy but still causing problems in airspace use, shut down the
operations and figure out what needs to be done to correct the situation.
The full time liaison to PNWMAC was a huge help.
Better National Guard coordination and training is needed prior to coming on. This is
especially true for communications.
Aviation Training Planned and AWT representation.
Aviation COR Training January 28-31 in Redmond, OR and March 18-21, 2002 in Portland, OR.
Jim Payne and Jim Ziobro will attend.
Aviation Awareness and combined Unit Aviation Officer Workshop February 25- March 1, 2002 in
Portland, OR. Jim Ziobro, Jim Payne, and Clay Hillin will attend.
Aviation Super Training Session (Helicopter Manager Training, Helibase Manager, ATGS, Air
Support, Air Operations Branch Director, Intermediate Air Operations) April 1-5, 2002 in Spokane,
WA. Clay will coordinate with Rene Beams for Aviation Working Team representation at this
session. Jim Payne, Clay Hillin, and Jim Ziobro will attend.
Helicopter Manager Workshop April 16-18, 2002 in Eugene, OR. Clay Hillin and Jim Ziobro will
attend.
Dispatcher Workshop March 5-7, 2002. Clay Hillin will attend.
Aviation Conference and Education (ACE), March 18-22, 2002 in San Diego, CA.; April 29-May 3,
2002 in Fairbanks, AK.
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SEAT Manager Training mid to late June 2002. Clay Hillin will attend.
Interagency Aviation Training.
The season just overwhelmed our attempt to form some sort of a proposal that would provide
simulations to further reinforce the learning achieved in the Interagency Aviation Training
Program. Clay Hillin spoke with Kris Damsgaard regarding our States interest in assisting in the
review and development of IAT training modules. She was pleased to hear this an promised to
include the working team in future development and review. For this subject is ongoing.
PNW AWT Frequencies and Guides.
There is a quality control issue with the guide. It was decided that the Aviation Working Team
Members would provide the final quality assurance of their portion of the guide before it goes to
the final edit. Clay Hillin will coordinate.
Aerospace Corporation has done some work in Southern California with the design and
implementation of new communications systems. It was briefed that this company has the
capacity to provide the necessary staff to redesign and implement a new communication system
for the PNW. At the present time this group feels that this is not something that the AWT needs
to be involved in, but that it may be something that PNWCG should.
(Clay and Jim will represent this group at the Forest Service Frequency management meeting
scheduled for March 5-7, 2002 and see if we need to advance this issue to PNWCG.)
Aviation Safety update:
The helicopter incident where a long line and bucket contacted another helicopter rotor
at a dip site was addressed. Of concern was the Air Attack responsibility for dip site
selection and coordination. Some of the rotation and communications issues and
policy are still not finalized.
R6 SEAT Accident. Make sure that SEMG training includes a case study of this accident. Steve
Smith will send Bill Bulger a letter regarding the status of the pilot.
CDF accident. FS had a large air tanker on this accident and it could have involved feds. They
used Chapter 9 of USFS Accident Investigation Procedures as a guide for their report. These
procedures cover fire, ground, and aviation for investigations in the Forest Service. We should
think about using this guide when an incident involves others.
Safecoms – there will be a new national server for both FS and OAS and the intent is to combine
both systems. We have Safecoms from States. They are in our database and we are looking at
how to incorporate the States into the process.
Still concerned with dispatcher training. Aviation awareness is not where we want to go.
Dispatchers need more than an awareness session they need safety training. Air Attack also
needs a look at, and we need to develop exclusive use ATGS. Fast tracking does not work in
these areas for developing personnel. We can't fast track people responsible for safety and
operations and expect success in our programs.
It was proposed that the working team establish an ATGS oversight committee with a member
from each agency.
(Jim will formulate the pulling together this group. Members are to supply the agency
representative name for the committee to Jim Payne by the first of the year.)
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October 31, 2002
Safety Technical Assistance Team. (STAT).
This season several teams were fielded, and these were done through the last minute
coordination of the Aviation Working Team. We want to be more proactive in the future. It was
decided that issuing the letters and delegating the responsibilities is something that the Aviation
Working Team supports. It was agreed that the STAT be managed in an Interagency fashion but
still not preclude an agency specific team for that purpose. When teams are initiated time should
be spent to a prepare kit for team that includes maps, directions, contacts, etc.
(Team members are to review the previously issued letter of delegation and at the next meeting
be prepared to finalize the letter contents.)
Next meeting is scheduled for February 6, 2002 0900 – 1500 Gifford Pinchot NF Supervisor
Office, Vancouver, WA. Chair at that time will be Jim Ziobro, Vice-chair Steve Rossiter. This
rotation was agreed on at the 10/19/00 meeting.
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